Crossdressing Idealogy

[Kimberly]

Ever since coming out to my (now ex) girlfriend, and talking to her about this, gender issues and the issues society seems to have against men wearing skirts and heels etc, I've been thinking really in depth about whether there will ever be a utopia in which no one cares what people wear and base their judgements on personality...

Sorry if this gets confusing, but...

I find it incredibly difficult to understand why people find men in skirts and heels strange. To me, yes they are feminine, but logically they are just clothes. And so people who have no real concern with the feminine or sexual aspects of some crossdressing shouldn't really be bothered with what they see a man wear. I myself long for the day where I can just get up in the morning, have a shower and then slip on a shirt and jacket, ready for college, but instead of trousers put on a nice pair of tights, a black pencil skirt and a good pair of 3" heels! But if I did that, I'd be gay, wouldn't I? (note the irony.)

But then I got thinking, and wondered, what was it that attracted us to women's clothes in the first place? From my own experience, I wanted to be a girl from the age of about 2 till the age of 5, (I think I still wonder about it, but have realised there is no miracle cure to change my gender. And I don't want to have the surgery.) But then this feeling of wanting to be the opposite sex changed into a sexual implication of wearing female clothes, and this is what drove me to crossdress in my later life. I crossdressed when I was very young, again about 2-5 years old, but it was never with the lust or sexual intent I did when I was 14 or 15. Now, my dressing has evolved, and I am about to step into the next phase of my dressing life, in which I go full out girly... Bras, panties, tops, jackets, skirts... everything I don't have yet. (I have shoes and skirts, but that's about it.) I suppose what I'm trying to say, is that I'm confused about whether I dress to be feminine, and get a sexual thrill from it, or whether I dress because I choose to and because I like female clothes better than male clothes. I think it's a bit of both personally.

But back to my original question: What attracted us to the clothes? Was it to become feminine? ... But then we come slap bang into the brick wall of "women's clothes will ALWAYS be women's clothes," and the realisation of the utopia of acceptance I described will never be. Or is it because we choose women's clothes over men's clothes, and we have the idealogy that clothes are clothes and do not imply our sexuality or gender? If it is the latter, then society should not have a problem and I should be able to whip that skirt on first thing in the morning...

And thus is the problem inside my head. I fear that crossdressing will never be accepted because masculine and feminine will always be polars apart, but do compliment each other - man and woman. There will never be an in between, that I have heard a few speak of. The Native American "Third Gender" as I have read of somewhere...

Lost somewhere in this splurge of a question is my true problem... Somewhere. :p Do we dress because we want to be "girls"? (in any loose sense of the word...) That is the comment that I want to follow... why we dress, and what implication does it give to society, and namely to your life?

A good friend said to me a few days ago, whilst reading Sugar magazine, (teenage girl pulp gossip,) "Did you know, men actually look better in skirts and heels than women do!?"

My thought was: So why don't we wear them??
My comment was: My god, what is that world coming to??

I apologise for the rant... Some thoughts on the subject would be nice. :)

As a quick answer to my own question - I truly don't think any of us fully understand why we dress... we just do, because it is an "urge."

Think happy thoughts :)

All my love xxx

[Julie York]

Interesting post Kimblerly.

I've followed a similar thought process. And I came up with this....The clothes are a sexual signal of gender. When they stop being so, then the whole CD thing collapses. It is the fact that they ARE female clothing that makes the whole thing tick.

Ask yourself this....

Would you wear a pink silk or satin shirt in your 'normal' life?
Would you wear a see through embroidered shirt to work?

Would 'panties for men' REALLY do the same for you? Or would they have to be Women's clothing! For women!

Are skirts really more comfortable? Then wear a Scottish kilt or baggier trousers.

It isn't the clothing as such. It is what it represents.

All that nonsense about women's panties are more comfortable (possibly)...but you buy some cut the frills off and dye them black and see how much want to wear them.

[Melissa A.]

What womens clothes represent, and your motivation, means everything.

This arguement raged on and on recently here, and I tried to be open minded to other's views, but I keep coming back to 2 things:

I LOVE being a girl! (albeit temporarily)

When I'm not a girl, I don't wear women's clothes.


Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Sophie]

Right! Here goes!

I do prefer wearing womens clothes. is this because they are more comfy and i look better in them? well..... to Me maybe.

But then again Why do i feel the need to wear make up and a wig with it?

Put simply, it's not just the clothes, athough that is a large part of it. For me, it is being a girl, allowing another part of my Psyce to come to the surface and show itself for the female that lives inside. I'm not TS, i am totally happy with the situation as is, but i do like to let my Girly side out. As a biologist, i can't help but think that this should be completely natural since we have half the DNA of a girl and the default condition for a human is female!

Is it that we are simply looking to be accepted as men in skirts or would we rather be seen as girls? For me, man in skirt is not enough (although i often do that around the house)

I like to be (as a minimum a 'pretty Man') that is a man in a dress, with long hair and make up beautifully applied! Oh OK! looking like a girl!

In short, man in a dress NO, Girl..... Yes please!

Sophie

[Kimberly]

Thank you, girls! Very thought provoking posts... I shall reply in the morning, when I have more energy, to try and conclude something out of this.

[Elysia]

I think that it is impossible to talk about the logic of clothes without giving the powerful symbolism of clothes due credit. Clothes have always been about making a personal statement. Let’s face it if clothes were only about keeping us warm we wouldn’t even bother to dye the cloth. Disregard symbolism and male clothes are no more logical than female clothes; what’s the point of a tie or a lapel. Grey is no less of a color choice than pink. Clothes are messages we drape across our bodies; messages about our culture, our status, our values and our role in life. That’s why they are so important.

So when I wear women’s clothes what is the message I’m trying to convey?
For me the message is that I am feminine; that is, I wish to associate myself with thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and approaches that I associate with being feminine.

Why is a man who thinks and feels in ways that are supposed to be the exclusive domain of women (in feminine ways) a problem for society in general?

Why should any particular set of thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and approaches be the exclusive domain of any gender?

How does society manipulate us by encouraging polarized gender norms?

[Roberta-Jane]

Just to add my bit.....

For me the clothes are not enough. I am at the age now where the sexual thrill has mainly gone and it is more that while dressed I feel at one with myself. BUt I want more than the clothes. The desire and urge to be complete when I dress gets stronger all the time.

Where this comes from, be damned if I know, but I am waiting to be refered to a counsellor so that I can talk it through.

I accept but don't personally understand how some others are happy with just knickers or some other single item. I too would love to be able to dress fully when I choose and be accepted for what I am; i.e. a man with a very strong feminine side.

All I know is that the path has been uncertain and will continue to be.

Sorry, rambling, time for bed said Roberta-Jane..... Boooinng!!!


Peace and SERENITY tonight to all


Roberta-Jane :)

[SissyPanties]

You might try taking the transgendered test. I took it and it made me realize I have more feminine charateristics than I thought I had. But I am with you too that a sex change operation is not for me either. The operation wouldn't make me feel like a woman. If I had it done, I would end up feeling like a castrated man. I often get sexual aroused from crossdressing. But there must be more to it than that, because there are many other ways to get aroused. I guess crossdressing helps me to express my feminine qualities that I have to hide from society.

[trinity24]

I am strongly convinced we were all genetically "wired" to find enjoyment in CDing, since our birth. The motivation will vary from person to person. For me, it has nothing to do with the need to be a woman. In fact, my greatest fantasies involve being forced to cross-dress - which I recently got to experience with a dominatrix, who deals with that fetish (if you're into that, the thrill you'll get during your first session, will be truly something to remember for the rest of your life). In either case, there is no right answer here - because although to an ousider we may all appear to be doing the same thing - there are worlds of differences behind what drives us.

[Victoria Pink]

For me, I need to feel like being a girl. I want to be with girls and do girl things. I love to dress up completely and I love to sit back and relax as a girl.

Victoria

[LindaLeeColby]

The most striking bit of research (tongue in cheek) and perhaps an answer off-handedly came to me once as I walked towards the restrooms at work. Two doors side by side, each with that universal symbol for male and female. One in pants, one in a dress. It made me wonder how many times I've seen that without realizing it and wondering, as well, when it was I began seeing it. From there I wondered how effective it was as symbol using my grandchildren at 3, 4, and 5 as a test.

My reasoning is based on a rough estimate of how many times we've seen that symbol from the age of three on and it comes out to be about 5,000 to 10,000 times (give or take whatever you want to give or take). Any marketing person (and the CIA) will tell you that viewing a symbol or brand that many times in any length of time insures an imprint strong enough to create both a physical and emotional association to some degree of relevance.

Which brings me back to my grandchildren age 3-male, 4-female and 5-female. Within a second or two they all recognized that those symbols were for a bathroom and which one was appropriate for which gender. Remarkably, we have a large number of social symbols and branding on what is and isn't gender appropriate and beginning with that first warning "put that down, that's for a girl". Which gets added (and layered) to a host of unwritten rules about being guys (colors, fabrics, cosmetics, mannerisms, emotions, etc. etc. etc.).

The thing is most of what we learn taught to us behaviorally is by way of negative reinforcement. Before the age of kindergarten, the word "No" over "Yes" is used roughly 100 to 1. Almost all of our teachings as we are imprinting is negative and by the time we do reach Kindergarten we've got a pretty good handle on what is and isn't appropriate for our gender. If we don't, we quickly learn the consequences of not following those unwritten rules... we've all heard or used the word "sissy".

Moreover, imagine how difficult it was (for most of us) to overcome all of that programming just to dress that first time. How often, in fact, have we purged, felt guilty, or agonized over doing this? Now imagine a guy that doesn't do this (with that same set of rules) and I can almost guarantee it's going to be negative because that's his (and our) programming. Ironically, there is very little difference between us in how we feel about this. We just want to feel differently, he doesn't.

Ironically though that negative reinforcement is the very essence of our attractions (less those feelings driven by genetics pushing some of us to female). It's that proverbial forbidden fruit-of-the-loom and thus it drives some of us stronger and causes my answer in two parts: Part one suggest it will never be acceptable, tolerated perhaps, but always odd; and part two, hints as a given that the majority of males have or will experiment at one time or another in spite of what they've been taught.

So many pretty things, so little time...

Hugs
Linda Lee

[Kimberly]

The thing is most of what we learn taught to us behaviorally is by way of negative reinforcement. Before the age of kindergarten, the word "No" over "Yes" is used roughly 100 to 1. Almost all of our teachings as we are imprinting is negative and by the time we do reach Kindergarten we've got a pretty good handle on what is and isn't appropriate for our gender. If we don't, we quickly learn the consequences of not following those unwritten rules...

Moreover, imagine how difficult it was (for most of us) to overcome all of that programming just to dress that first time.

This almost hit it on the head for me. I think this could be the basis of both our anger at sociey and part of the reason why we dress: coz we want to be girly.

Therefore there must be something different in our mindset about who we are. Another thread that has influenced my thoughts on this was: Female feelings, female thoughts, female desires? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7793)

I got a bit depressed today (other things on my drab mind). Theres a lot of stuff going on - exams soon so revision is kicking in... and panic :p But this issue tipped me over the edge. I'm so angry that we can't be accepted. I'm angry at people's prejudgices over this kind of matter... gender and sexuality issues. I got so angry to the point that I don't know who I was angry about.

This is why I'm confused. Could it be that the thing I hate is also the reason I want to dress: forced gender identities. "You are a boy, therefore you must sit in a certain way, partake in rough and tumble play, and be interested in cars and planes and bombs and guns....." Some of that just isn't me. So is it society - or is it me, who is trying to be one thing, but society is pushing me back from being it?

When I discussed the utopia before, I don't think I was quite clear in my own mind. Now, I envisage that no matter what sex you are, you can express your inner gender to the world - or half half, depending on how you feel about who you are. So, it isn't that I hate gender stereotypes, I suppose, it's that I cannot express my feeling of somehow belonging to both. Society won't let me.

Do you think we're hitting on something, girls? Or is this just contradictory nonsense?

depressed hugs xx

[Katie Ashe]

Most of you said one thing or another that I'm not going to repeat (just to keep it short). I started because at the age of 9, girls were pretty and I was ugly, I want to look nice too. Why I wear, Why should guy be limited to plaid and boots only, I'm not Amish (Nothing wrong with it, just not my life style). I have argued these saame points Kimberly stated for years, but no-one hears me anyways :( . Clothes indicat sex because we are conditioned that way over the past few decades. Go to Africa, hell they don't have clothes and they know whom they are with out question. People are the way they are because of the normal people. Alllll of us reading this are normal, aren't we, I mean what is it to be normal anyways, it got lost in translation over the years I guess. I like other fabric besides cotton, they look nice, feel nice, etc... I am short and use high heels to make up for my hieght and there sexy too. skirts are less restrictive than shorts! This is long enough, I'll stop now... Go ahead and tear my thread apart...

Katie

[RobynP]

Ever since coming out to my (now ex) girlfriend, and talking to her about this, gender issues and the issues society seems to have against men wearing skirts and heels etc,

Lost somewhere in this splurge of a question is my true problem... Somewhere. :p Do we dress because we want to be "girls"? (in any loose sense of the word...) That is the comment that I want to follow... why we dress, and what implication does it give to society, and namely to your life?


As a quick answer to my own question - I truly don't think any of us fully understand why we dress... we just do, because it is an "urge."



I used to have these types of discussions with my ex when I first came out to her. She used to ask me:

1. Why the need for the wig and makeup? If I wanted to wear women's clothes, are a wig and makeup really necessary?
(I do know there are a number of men who do wear women's clothes never using wig and makeup. They make it very clear they are still men. Are they crossdressers?)

2. Why do I need more than one dress? Why do I need a whole closet full? If I want do wear a dress, shouldn't one dress fill that need?

3. Why do I want to wear women's pants, shorts, or leggings? She could sort of see the curiosity about wearing a dress but she couldn't understand why I would want to wear women's pants...

4. If I liked the feel and sensation of women's clothes, then why couldn't I be satisfied with wearing men's silk shirts and silk boxers?

I think all of these a great questions that we all ask ourselves during our journey of discovery. For me, my answers pointed to me having a distinctively feminine identity that I wanted to present. I have even crossedressed while crossdressing by wearing all guy clothes with my usual feminine padding, a wig, makeup, and jewelry. Now why would a crossdresser want to wear men's clothes???

RobynP

[Elysia]

I have even crossedressed while crossdressing by wearing all guy clothes with my usual feminine padding, a wig, makeup, and jewelry. Now why would a crossdresser want to wear men's clothes???

For me there is aspect of 'thumbing my nose' at gender conventions. This is certainly not the only reason I cross-dress but part of it is that I’m not supposed to.

In my opinion there is something wrong with the extreme gender roles society tries to impose on both men and women. It’s dumbing down, homogenizing, confining, minimizing… it’s a way to control people. I’m not brave enough to do it publicly, but in private I say, “I’m not going to let people tell me what I can and can not do, or want I should or should not like. At least, not when I know that I'm not hurting anyone, except perhaps those who aim to control me more than they have a right too… do you see what I mean?

[Kimberly]

do you see what I mean?
Coming in loud and clear, Elysia!

[Kimberly]

Most of you said one thing or another that I'm not going to repeat (just to keep it short). I started because at the age of 9, girls were pretty and I was ugly, I want to look nice too. Why I wear, Why should guy be limited to plaid and boots only, I'm not Amish (Nothing wrong with it, just not my life style). I have argued these saame points Kimberly stated for years, but no-one hears me anyways :( . Clothes indicat sex because we are conditioned that way over the past few decades. Go to Africa, hell they don't have clothes and they know whom they are with out question. People are the way they are because of the normal people. Alllll of us reading this are normal, aren't we, I mean what is it to be normal anyways, it got lost in translation over the years I guess. I like other fabric besides cotton, they look nice, feel nice, etc... I am short and use high heels to make up for my hieght and there sexy too. skirts are less restrictive than shorts! This is long enough, I'll stop now... Go ahead and tear my thread apart...
Katie
Honeslty, Katie - that's almost exactly my moralistic standpoint on this whole issue. Why can't we just wear what our personality tells us to be right for us?? If that inlcudes pink things, purple things, green things, shirts, skirts, heels, flats... whatever! Doesn't bother me!!

And RobynP - it's simple, my darling... Women have lots of different clothes, so why can't we?? I know we don't take them out as much, but what's the harm in having different items? I have had the same 3 pairs of shoes now for a couple of years, and am getting VERY bored with them. (shopping trip at the weekend - willl buy some more stuff then.) We want variety!! Because us girls want the same as most GGs - variety in our wardrobe! hehe. :)

[Phoebe Diana]

Ever since coming out to my (now ex) girlfriend, and talking to her about this, gender issues and the issues society seems to have against men wearing skirts and heels etc, I've been thinking really in depth about whether there will ever be a utopia in which no one cares what people wear and base their judgements on personality...

Sorry if this gets confusing, but...

I find it incredibly difficult to understand why people find men in skirts and heels strange.

Americans have no tolerance for ambiguity.

(Probably true about people in general, but I hold out hope that there is some culture which does.)

None. The last election cycle certainly hammered that home. Things are black or white, conservative or liberal, male or female. Debits or credits. Right or wrong. Winners or losers. When people talk about a middle way, they are mostly just using it as an interim step, while they try and convert you to their point of view.

Overly harsh, overly simplistic, and thoroughly depressing? You betcha. But mostly true.

Heck, I'll be more depressing than that. If (American) society ever *did* come around and accept CD/TG/TS (which is already *way* too many categories) , they would do in in a such a thoroughly-studied, inflexible, and rigidly-defined way, that half of us would no longer be comfortable defining ourselves that way. (If we even are now.) Then we wouldn't just have to worry that we were bad men, but that we were bad TGs.
Why do things have to work this way? My current belief is that it's a consequence of society being so big. Studies have shown that companies usually have major problems when they grow above a certain size (my memory is fuzzy, I think it's somewhere between 200-500 people), which coincidentally is the same size as your typical medieval village. It's the maximum size where most people can actually know and remember every single other person in the group as an individual. Once you get past that, you start dealing with people on a much more abstract basis. Personal relationships get replaced with chain of command. You have to reduce things down to a finite number of variables so that you can actually cope with the information. Expand on that a few times and you'll see how large-scale discourse is working right now.

Are there any alternatives? Sure. Loosen up central control. Now instead of one large structure making yes-no decisions, you have several smaller entities, making more nuanced decisions. Of course, now everything is running less efficiently, because you have more layers of bureaucracy. And different places are making different rules, so you lose your uniformity and predictability. And, lots of people that some of these places are making decisions that are "right" and some of them are "wrong". But these decisions are (at least theoretically) closer to what the people who make up the groups want.

Okay, so now *I'm* thoroughly depressed, even if you aren't. But it does get better.

The truth is, very few of us are ever dealing with "society at large". We're dealing with a much smaller subgroup--our neighborhood, our company, our team. This newsgroup. Work on achieving your acceptance there (or going to a different group where you can), and trust that if enough subgroups can learn, then eventually the overarching groups will too. (You have to trust in that, don't you. Cause if that doesn't work, if the overarching structure of society doesn't eventually match up with the desires of the people who live in it, well then it'll eventually crumble anyway, won't it?)

Well, that's what I believe today, anyway. This is so *not* what I thought I was going to write.

Phoebe
who used to think she was an optimist
but has since realized she's just a cheerful pessimist

[Like2BAspen]

I think society has the problem with looks rather then the type of clothing a guy wheres. If a guy looked totally awsome in a skirt like ava mouse no one would bat an eye. But if we did not look good thats where the problem is. Our society hates imperfection.

[carolynhcd]

I think that there is an aspect as yet unmentioned in this thread. All of us believe in something, although the thing we each believe in can be very different. Some of us believe in god, or the flag, or capitalism or any thing else that may have something of the sacred about it. I believe that all humans are on a road that leads to their infinite perfectability. Because it is infinite, it will take forever. Because we are small creatures with little real knowledge and a host of distractions, we are prone to seeing things on a very small scale and seldom glimpse the wide vistas that lay before us, seeing rather the trees than the forest. I think that the thing that drives our transgenderism (for I will not demean it by making it about merely liking women's clothes or the feeling of being "girly") is a natural drive for balance in all things. The teachings of the Tao say that we must have one foot in this world and the other foot in the unseen world. It is not mere arbitrariness or contrariness that drives us, though it may well seem that way at times. I think that we strive to balance ourselves on the pinpoint of the now, the immediate. Most of us have played with a Slinky in our life. Looked at one way, end-on, it seems a circle. With the benefit of stereoscopic vision, a cylinder. Looked at from the side, a kind of helix. All the same object, viewed differently. I think it seems unnatural to exclude things and behaviours from our lives on the basis of strictures we had nothing to do with the formulation of. There are fundamentalists who condemn homosexuality on the basis of Leviticus who elsewise enjoy shellfish and ham and creamed beef. I think crossdressing has everything to do with being inherently omnisexual and I am patient with those who are not ready to admit that to themselves yet. Why else try to be the most attractive girl you can be if you don't want to attract SOMETHING with that honey? As has been said earlier, why would not panties be enough? Why go to the extent of buying and wearing wigs and makeup and stilettos? I do think that, on a base level, an unrefined and rudimentary level, there is an element of narcissism in crossdressing, made most obvious by its masturbatory component. If I am turned on as a man by myself as a woman, isn't there possibly something more lurking behind the mirror? I hope I shall be judged to be discussing this matter in a way that comports with the bounds of decency, but it seems meet and just that it be discussed here, rather than in the adult fora. For those few of us who have enjoyed heterosexual movies of the type known as "porno," let me ask a question. In a scene with a girl performing orally upon a man, what are the requisite elements of the scene that make it worth watching. By that, I mean, what, if taken away, renders the scene uninteresting? It seems to me that there are but two elements that are requisite to the interest likely to be evoked by such a scene. One of them is the girl's face. I leave to you to reckon what the other is. Take either one away, and what is left? Is it still interesting? And if that is in fact interesting with both elements present and not without, then what should we conclude about ourselves? Could you be satisfied with the one without the other? It brings up the question of hatred spawned by fear. Do we hate women and seek to supplant their power over us by stealing their trappings which so seem to embody their power? Do we envy them and wish to enjoy their power? Do we want to have what they have access to? For those who have made love to a GG while dressed, has it occurred to any of you that you are "getting back" at women for the many slights paid you in the past by their race, by insulting the one you are with with your appropriation of her talismans? Is it possible that the truth may lie fathoms deeper than that? My GF and I both consider ourselves transgendered (she is a GG). I am frankly tired and bored with the act necessary to have a sex life with most GG's. She has never fancied the act that most men put on to get laid. I have found myself in bed with many women, men and cd's in my life. There are good things and bad things about everything. There is no unmixed good or evil. Someone on this thread referenced the inimitable Ava Mouse, who I adore. She refers to her crossdressing as an artistic adventure in the feminine, or something like that. I sense such tremulousness in so many posts on this site. Ars longa, vita brevis! In the time of your life, live! One can pussyfoot and pander to their fears and kowtow to ancient texts that have no relevance and perhaps never did. How long do you think you will live? What do you hope to learn in this life so that you don't come back as a cockroach or Paris Hilton's Chihuahua? Dare to question the fantasies that most titillate you. Reckon squarely with yourself as to what you are doing and why. I think, to the pensive mind, the answers are manifest, if one only has the guts to face the truth. And yet, the truth is always bigger by far than our little minds can concieve. For those who have a Judeo-Christian background, consider the Buddhist saying, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." If you think that you have arrived at the truth, stop and bitchslap yourself, for you are surely deluded. The answer is so much bigger and grander than you can, with your little mind, imagine. Another post on this thread mentioned the third sex recognized by the American Indians. Read Jaime D'Angulo's stories of the California Indians and how their shamans were all transgendered, how that was considered requisite for higher knowledge. Read how the shamans of the Zuni Indians would eat anything and were allowed to walk the Milky Way with the gods for that they behaved like clowns. Little minds are the downfall of all great societies. The present American trend toward Puritanism would be horrific did I not know that everything has its season and engenders its own opposite in time. The word for this is "enantiodromia," the act of a thing turning into its own opposite. Take control of your minds, read, learn, practice and don't be afraid of puppets and shadowshows. I live in the South and people will ask me if Jesus is my personal saviour. No, he isn't. Not the Jesus hawked by pompadoured, perfumed hustlers in $800 suits. Not the Jesus served up as a quid pro quo on a collection plate at a Sunday service. I am my personal saviour, by my willingness to dare, to question, to doubt, to wonder, to try. I think that all crossdressers, or at least the great majority of them, are prompted by a kind of omnisexuality that makes them be described by those who know them, whether they know of their proclivity or not, as joyous, outgoing and fun people. It is the most sane and wholesome approach to this mundane existence and our little minds so seldom let us grasp or glimpse the divine and sacred higher functions we most rudimentally aspire to.

[Elysia]

Thanks Carolyn, much to ponder there.

My first reaction is to say:

Ah… but that I could be so bold, like a great Vonnegut character, oblivious to the small mindedness of my environment. Yet I wonder about the element of narcissism in cross-dressing. Should I, a father, a husband, ignore the impact of this small mindedness on my child and my wife?

Perhaps, I’m just making excuses for my own small mindedness. I do long to be forthright and brave. I find the transcendence of self discovery without bounds appealing but should I think only of myself. I’m not suggesting that you are wrong, or even that you are advocating anything without bounds; only that I don’t know what is right and I must test my bounds cautiously.

[tgirlkari]

Clothes are symbols and messages. If you look at a guy wearing western clothes he is probobly a cowboy a girl dressed extra ****y is either a **** or a hooker.
Someone wearing average womens clothing is a woman, at least thats how it is for me.
wearing panties for a man is not the same as wearing womens panties, but we need to
remember that the desire to wear womens clothes is not always due to transgendreism
it could be caused by any thing,ask yourself what causes it for you?. I seen a book once that was titled I Dress Therefore I Am, for me its, I Am Therefore I dress.

[Kimberly]

Well, that's what I believe today, anyway. This is so *not* what I thought I was going to write.
Lol.... As I was writing my first post in this topic, I was thinking that ALL the way through.

I just got confused, but if you read the whole thread, we probably have a good arguement about society.

[Kimberly]

ask yourself what causes it for you?
I am one of these people who do not truly understand why they have this need to dress. I just do, and I understand the force it acts upon me:

I cannot suppress it, It gives me a need to do something which I know rationally is something not liked by society, and that I get an intense sense of well-being (almost like I am whole... a calmer self,).

Since my teenage crossdressing years, I've always known, instinctively, that my parents, or friends that don't know about my dressing, finding me in my clothes or finding the clothes in their hiding places will automatically destroy my world. At that point, I had already built in the "fight or flight" response to my dressing and others finding out. This concerns me - and makes me think that we have to conform to society out of fear.

Carolyn, you spoke about fear... With this fear though, I also have a longing to tell people about my dressing - to finally come out. To my parents, (I'm an only child,) to my close friends, maybe to those not so close... But I don't know. The "flight" part of that instinct I talked about always prevails with a short, hard slap of a "no."

[carolynhcd]

Kimberly and Elysia,

I feel badly that I was not so clear as I could have wished to be in my previous post. I hate dichotomy and the dualistic worldview it represents. I believe in unification, but what could require unification if it were not fractionated? There is a real difference between things imagined and things seen. But, for those of us who were "experierienced" in the '60's, that division also appears illusory. Let us posit a difference between the physical and the fantastical. Many things may be accomplished without ever actually "doing" the thing. The effects of fantasy on the consciousness are manifold and manifest. Once something has been conceived, it is but a small step to its actualization. Edison used to say that inventiveness was 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration. We are not inventing the lightbulb here. We are experiencing something as old and preternaturural as the world itself. I think I may have been derelict in not stressing in my previous post the difference between the rational and the irrational. There can be little argument offered in support of the rationality of crossdressing. Its pleasures are visceral and irrational a priori. I did not mean to suggest that one run wild in the streets in a kind of 24/7 Bacchanale with skirts up and pudenda flaunted. I do recognise the many responsibilities we all have shouldered, some unwisely and some de rigeur. I do think that the fundamentals of crossdressing are irrational, and thus are not susceptible to rationalisation. It is a disservice to that basic part of ourselves to try to make sense of what will never make sense. I am thinking of the chorus to the Talking Heads' song called "Girlfriend" that says, "Stop making sense, Stop making sense, Stop making sense, making sense!" I so wished to make a point that I have mulled for the last 24 hours and find that the demands of a long workweek and a longer to come have quite drained me. I wish I could feel comfortable being more graphic on this subject, but I will admit that I feel that I am treading on eggshells in trying to make my point. There is a very real and sexual aspect to crossdressing, and anyone who has never imagined being a girl with a man or cd is CTD, in my humble opinion. For those not familiar with end of life care issues, CTD means "circling the drain," i.e., about to die. I think we need to be bold and brave. I again say that I don't mean fathers should abandon their children or husbands desert their wives. I think, for the most part, crossdressing happens largely in the mind and much less so in the "real world." I think that the real bravery, the rwal daring lies in thinking beyond the bounds of what was once comfortable. Most of the entire constellation of affects of crossdressing occur in the mind and not in the dressing room, the boudouir, the cd clubs or the catalogues. It is mostly a thing of the mind and that is where the real province of freedom exists. I will end this here and hope that someone will tell me whether I am merely babbling or onto something. I feel it is the latter, but it is all dust in the wind if no one thinks I am making sense, withoit making sense.

[Kimberly]

I will end this here and hope that someone will tell me whether I am merely babbling or onto something. I feel it is the latter, but it is all dust in the wind if no one thinks I am making sense, withoit making sense.
I think you've really got something here, with the thought that crossdressing is within the mind.

It is... but then, what drives our curiosity to actually experience the real clothes? I myself, am going on my first major CD shopping trip today? Why... well... a mixture of another theme in your posts: Rational and the Irrational. My rational side of CD life (because i believe in everything rational and irrational coexist) has seen too many nice outfits out there to hold back. I want some o' that!! hehe. Then my irrational side has a longing to develope my CDing and has an urge for all the clothes I haven't got yet - stockings, a bra, a summer dress...

If we were happy only with our fantasies then none of us would have stepped into that jungle of real life clothes that we call high street stores :p

[carolynhcd]

Yes, Kimberly, and that is part of my point. The real aspect, the physical manifestation, the irrational part is undeniable. We do want pretty outfits. Some of us even want sexy outfits. Why do we want to look pretty or sexy? Because it makes us feel good. I once had a GF I really liked a lot. I told her that I really fancied black lingerie, without telling her that I also liked to wear it. She was not a girl to dress up, preferring pants to skirts. As a special treat for me, she told me one Friday night that she had bought some black lingerie for me and went into the bathroom to put it on. When she came out, she was wearing a very simple pair of black tights! This was her idea of black lingerie!!! I think that is when I decided that I would no longer submit to the uninspired whims of GGs to fulfil my need for the things I wanted in my life. If I wanted sexy black lingerie, it was clearly incumbent on me to wear it. I then began building a wardrobe and I gradually became the girl I most wanted to be with. This is clearly narcissistic and autoerotic, but I see no need to condemn myself or anyone else so situated. I have had the best sex life with myself that could be hoped for. I have shared myself with men and women, and am now in a long term relationship with a GG who knows absolutely everything about me. I have told most of the people in my life about me and am very happy that no one has been much bothered. Some GG friends have been very helpful, in fact. There is a difference between the real/unreal and the rational/irrational dichotomies, and I would never try to deny the need for actualisation of our desires to dress and look pretty/sexy. That part cannot be accomplished entirely in the mind. The hours spent primping, shaving, brushing out wigs or shopping in the High Street are real, however irrational they may be. The degree to which our desires are carried forward are, however, volitional. We can set limits for ourselves that are in comportment with our real world responsibilities, but that is rationalisation of an irrational urge. The irrational urge is to Saturnalia, I think, and since that is no longer part of our calendar, we must find a way to include the psychic component in our lives on a much less grandiose scale. I do not like ever having to wear men's clothes. I do regularly, for a host of reasons so obvious as to not require reiteration. Am I merely being stroppy about the fact that my dangly bits mandate my dress code or that a Puritanical society is constantly poking a blue nose in and telling me who to be? Do I truly want to live 24/7 en femme? Or do I want the absolute freedom to drift back and forth across a line purely at my own whim? I think it is the latter. I like both sides of myself and don't want to lose either. I think my earlier use of the term "omnisexual" states the tongue of the case. I am not bisexual, I am omnisexual. I will not be told who I may be or who or what I may have sex with. I cannot think but this represents a very sane attitude towards the real world. Either one is restrictive, whether internally or externally constrained, or one is polymorphously perverse and unfettered in one's embrace of the world. Again, I don't want to offend anyone, but the sexual component of crossdressing and the motifs that underly it are so important to understanding an irrational behaviour pattern. It is in self-knowledge that any answer is to be found. What do we desire sexually, and how must we behave to achieve that desire, are simple when honestly addressed and answered. I simply cannot believe that a man will transform himself into the best approximation of a sexy girl and not wish to reap the rewards that a real girl would expect from the same investment of labour. Mind you, she has much less shaving to do to get there! In various polls on this site, I have seen people post that they are "100% heterosexual," with various success in the spelling. They seem so proud, almost boastful, as if they think they with be rewarded with a couple of laps around the track in Rusty Wallace's car. It saddens me that people think by excluding half the world they are being "good." Do you live, do you love life? Then what part of that is de facto off limits? 50% of the world? Is that "good?" There is no stick with only one end. There is an inherent duality to this existence that can be embraced or reviled. I have made myself pretty and sexy for men and for women and have loved the feeling of my other sexuality with both. I have been a man with women and with men and have reveled in that sexuality as well. Let others judge as they will, or must, but I think I have achieved a real democracy of sorts within myself where everyone has a vote and a chance to be seen and heard and felt. So I hope that you have a good day on the High Street, Kimberly, and come home lumbered with packages of delight for you and others you choose to share it with. I hope that for us all.

[sarah]

O.M.G. Why is life so complicated may i just say for the record that if we had been allowed to wear what we want we would have obviously chosen the softer fabrics and the more pretty clothing ..Our main problem is that we have been forced to wear clothing that is uncomfortable and and ugly so my answert is bring the two sexes together and stop all this bullshit a bout who should wear what and who should do what...All these decisions were made with out asking us ...how dare they tell us what to do without asking us because we fall into one of there categories,!!!!!

[Deanna2]

In response to Linda Lee there is actual research that shows children up to a certain age distinguish between the genders by the clothing in the images - whether they be photos or drawings.

Back to Kimberly's point of why do we dress en femme. For me it the feel and luxury of femme clothing, whether it be lycra, satin or any other material. I also feel far more relaxed and comfortable in a skirt and top. I wear femme gear because I like it, not because I ever would want to be a woman.

I'm also finding some practical reasons. Femme gear is far cooler in the summer and warmer to wear in the winter.

Luvya

[Kimberly]

I was recently at a party in which a good friend of mine, that has now come out as gay, was being verbally abused (mainly behind his back,) by fellow male party guests.

This struck a cord with me: It isn't generally women who find CDing and the Transgendered community "repulsive" (not my word AT ALL) it's the MALE population that has a problem with it.

This could stem from the socially engraved prejudgice against the genders and sexualities being different from Man/Woman - and man and woman as a couple. Truly "male" characters were just describing my friend as a "pufter" and "he's so gay!" One turned around and said the latter comment, and I wanted to just burst up and say, "and why is that a problem?!"... but I was too kind of relaxed at the time to really do anything.

So I think, if we do want support with our CDing outside the CDing community - (coz meeting up with people is few and far between... and quite difficult,) then women are the best option.

I'm also going to go with something Natasha Sometimes said in the thread marked Painted Nails (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8164) which said,

"My excuse, "I'm a transvestite". You should see the looks I get when that one pops out to people who don't know.

I'm tired of finding reasons for who I am, I don't need an excuse to be me."

This is one comment that I will try to live by - slowly. Telling a few select peolpe who I know well, and who I know won't tell everyone else in my college... because I don't want the prejudice remarks of "pufter" and "gay" that are slapped on me as stereotype. I am not a stereotype. I am me - both male and female within me.

[Elysia]

In general, I must say that for me cross-dressing is unfortunately more complicated that just the desire to wear particular materials and styles. I’d guess that, all else being equal, if it was common place for men to wear only skirts and women to wear only pants, I would likely find myself hiding the fact that I like to wear pants in the privacy of my own home.



Carolyn, I can’t say that I follow all that you allude to, but there is much that you write that makes good sense to me. I appreciate everyone sharing because it gives me much to think about. I was struck by your comment:


I think that is when I decided that I would no longer submit to the uninspired whims of GGs to fulfil my need for the things I wanted in my life. If I wanted sexy black lingerie, it was clearly incumbent on me to wear it.

I think you are definitely right about this. I think this is an important aspect of cross-dressing and, for that matter, a very positive one.



When a person tries to get some else to fulfill an expressive need that they have that’s projection. It’s not a good thing because it interferes with appreciating a person for who they really are. People are inclined to project things that they are not comfortable expressing or owning in themselves. No one can every really satisfy a projected need so it’s a recipe for disappointment and frustration. Cross-dressers who recognize that wearing very pretty feminine things is their need will stop projecting this onto the women in their lives and will be freer to love and appreciate those women for who they really are.



As to the discrimination and disparaging of Gays, I believe we have a duty to stand against it. What to do any given situation is hard to say. When I find myself in a conversation with someone who is expressing prejudice based on race, color, nationality, sexual preference or gender preference I will tell them that I don’t agree with their prejudices and ask that we change the subject. If they refuse to do so, I will either leave or ask them to leave, depending on where I am. I know this is not much, but it is the least I can do.

I’m fortunate that I can so easily hide the facet of me that would be a target of prejudice and I’m not giving that advantage up, but I’ll not ignore, when it’s right in front of me, the plight of people less fortunate than myself. I know that ‘there but for the grace of God go I.’

This is not how I’ve always been and I’ve reached a place in life where I have a good deal of control in most of the environments in which I operate, so I hope, Kimberly, that you do not take my comments as a criticism. I can’t say I would have said anything to those other party goers were I in your shoes.

[Kimberly]

I agree that I should have said something, as I have known this friend for a while now, and he is a great guy. Even if I didn't crossdress, or wasn't curious about my sexuality... (One reference to it in this thread about human's not being one or the other - straight or gay - but both in some form,) I would have said something, because as my morals dictate I really hate any forms of prejudice. As is the theme of this thread: people should see you as a person and not a labelled stereotype. Unfortunatly people feel more at ease with a stereotype and feel more able to discriminate against it.

[Natasha Anne]

Here here, they gay community has done a lot to help us. I don't think we'd be nearly as far as we are without them. I support them 110% because of that, and because they face many of the same dumb prejudices we do.

By the way, Kimberly, thans for the nice remark about my comments. It's nice to know I made a difference in someone's life. The more of us who are brave enough to do so, the quiker we'll be perceived as "normal"




In general, I must say that for me cross-dressing is unfortunately more complicated that just the desire to wear particular materials and styles. I’d guess that, all else being equal, if it was common place for men to wear only skirts and women to wear only pants, I would likely find myself hiding the fact that I like to wear pants in the privacy of my own home.



Carolyn, I can’t say that I follow all that you allude to, but there is much that you write that makes good sense to me. I appreciate everyone sharing because it gives me much to think about. I was struck by your comment:



I think you are definitely right about this. I think this is an important aspect of cross-dressing and, for that matter, a very positive one.



When a person tries to get some else to fulfill an expressive need that they have that’s projection. It’s not a good thing because it interferes with appreciating a person for who they really are. People are inclined to project things that they are not comfortable expressing or owning in themselves. No one can every really satisfy a projected need so it’s a recipe for disappointment and frustration. Cross-dressers who recognize that wearing very pretty feminine things is their need will stop projecting this onto the women in their lives and will be freer to love and appreciate those women for who they really are.



As to the discrimination and disparaging of Gays, I believe we have a duty to stand against it. What to do any given situation is hard to say. When I find myself in a conversation with someone who is expressing prejudice based on race, color, nationality, sexual preference or gender preference I will tell them that I don’t agree with their prejudices and ask that we change the subject. If they refuse to do so, I will either leave or ask them to leave, depending on where I am. I know this is not much, but it is the least I can do.

I’m fortunate that I can so easily hide the facet of me that would be a target of prejudice and I’m not giving that advantage up, but I’ll not ignore, when it’s right in front of me, the plight of people less fortunate than myself. I know that ‘there but for the grace of God go I.’

This is not how I’ve always been and I’ve reached a place in life where I have a good deal of control in most of the environments in which I operate, so I hope, Kimberly, that you do not take my comments as a criticism. I can’t say I would have said anything to those other party goers were I in your shoes.

[Kimberly]

Thanks, Natasha!

I'll let you know how the whole "coming straight out with it" thing works out... I'll have to test it on someone I can vaguely trust - but it may be down to luck if someone sees me out while I'm 'expanding' my wardrobe! xx

[Natasha Anne]

Being caught is scary, but also partly a relief. That way you didn't have to mnuster the courage to tell someone, but told them anyway :)

Of course the next few days after that will require a lot of courage, especially as it is the one time you should not pretend it did not happen nor go on the defensive. People need to "deal with it" but they eventually do, and you'll finally find out who your friends are. In my case I lost no friends at all.

Some were amused, some mentioned it but do not talk about it, and others take an active interest.

[Kimberly]

I have told a few friends about it, including an ex girlfriend (mentioned on here,) and most, if not all, have taken some interest in one form or the other.

One friend I haven't seen for a while, probably doesn't even remember I told her. Hehe. There is a very good friend of mine I take with me whilst shopping for moral support - but he seems to chicken out more than I do. Next time, I'll just go, walk into the shop and buy what I want. And if I get a "What are you in here for?" or a "why you buying that?" from a random friend in the same shop, the answer will be along the lines of "I'm buying it to wear it - what else would I buy it for?" ... but I'd probably explain it too. And if they wanted to talk, then fine. :)

That's better than saying "Hi. I'm a transvestite, but I'm not going to explain it so that you can get a stereotype fixed into your head!"

[Elysia]

I hope this is not taking this tread too far out, but Kimberly’s and other’s comments have really gotten me thinking about how I should deal with prejudice, against cross-dressing and other things. Please allow me to share some background.

Today at church we listened to a rendition of the Holocaust Cantata. This was due to the 60th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. There are Jews in the congregation but they are not the majority. We are a non-denominational church. To give you an idea of our style, I’ll tell you our parking lot on Sunday has the largest percentage of hybrid cars of any in town, there is a rainbow triangle prominently displayed next to our front door, and one of our Junior Ministers is a self-professed atheist, that’s just fine with us.

I’ve never seen this piece before so I don’t know if it is common to intersperse readings between the musical pieces but that’s how it was done today and some of them were just heart wrenching. Before the Cantata our Senior Minister suggested that the perspective we might choose to take on this (the point of view he like us to have) is that of the decedents of those Germans who after it was all done, said that they never realized what was happening.

The Nazi’s rounded up and killed anyone who they thought of as a misfit: Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Transsexuals, Transvestites, and anyone else who didn’t fit their idea of an acceptable mold. If they were in power now, they would shut this site down, hunt us down and kill us all, no exaggeration. I’m sure I’m not telling most of you something you don’t already know. I’ve known all this for as long as I can remember but what has this knowledge amounted to in my life.

So, this morning, I’m clutching my wife’s hand and holding back tears and I thought of my comments, written in this tread just yesterday, and it occured to me that it’s just not enough. It’s not enough to just change the subject. It’s not enough to ask people to make it easy for me to ignore the effects of their prejudice.

If this site is to be worth anything more than the thousands of sites that just provide opportunities for self gratification, its contributors must take seriously the avocation of Transsexual and Transvestite (Cross-Dresser's) rights. Moreover, it seems to me that we can only reasonably advocate for our own rights if we also advocate for the rights of anyone who is being discriminated against. That means we must actively and aggressively fight for the rights of Homosexuals, racial or ethnic minorities, and anyone else who is being targeted for unequal treatment.

It starts with small things: Disparaging comments, little slights, things that separate and denigrate people. How might things have been different if in the 1920’s, when the would-be Nazi dropped a small slight against Jews, he or she had been immediately confronted. Prejudice is an insidious force; it interprets silence as permission. So, I pledge that the next time I run into prejudice, I’ll not be content with just asking that it be hidden from me; I’ll take it to task, empowered by the knowledge of and the bravery of all the wonderful people I’ve met here.

[Natasha Anne]

This was just priceless and make a lot of sense to me. Thanks for sharing this Elysia.




I hope this is not taking this tread too far out, but Kimberly’s and other’s comments have really gotten me thinking about how I should deal with prejudice, against cross-dressing and other things. Please allow me to share some background.

Today at church we listened to a rendition of the Holocaust Cantata. This was due to the 60th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. There are Jews in the congregation but they are not the majority. We are a non-denominational church. To give you an idea of our style, I’ll tell you our parking lot on Sunday has the largest percentage of hybrid cars of any in town, there is a rainbow triangle prominently displayed next to our front door, and one of our Junior Ministers is a self-professed atheist, that’s just fine with us.

I’ve never seen this piece before so I don’t know if it is common to intersperse readings between the musical pieces but that’s how it was done today and some of them were just heart wrenching. Before the Cantata our Senior Minister suggested that the perspective we might choose to take on this (the point of view he like us to have) is that of the decedents of those Germans who after it was all done, said that they never realized what was happening.

The Nazi’s rounded up and killed anyone who they thought of as a misfit: Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Transsexuals, Transvestites, and anyone else who didn’t fit their idea of an acceptable mold. If they were in power now, they would shut this site down, hunt us down and kill us all, no exaggeration. I’m sure I’m not telling most of you something you don’t already know. I’ve known all this for as long as I can remember but what has this knowledge amounted to in my life.

So, this morning, I’m clutching my wife’s hand and holding back tears and I thought of my comments, written in this tread just yesterday, and it occured to me that it’s just not enough. It’s not enough to just change the subject. It’s not enough to ask people to make it easy for me to ignore the effects of their prejudice.

If this site is to be worth anything more than the thousands of sites that just provide opportunities for self gratification, its contributors must take seriously the avocation of Transsexual and Transvestite (Cross-Dresser's) rights. Moreover, it seems to me that we can only reasonably advocate for our own rights if we also advocate for the rights of anyone who is being discriminated against. That means we must actively and aggressively fight for the rights of Homosexuals, racial or ethnic minorities, and anyone else who is being targeted for unequal treatment.

It starts with small things: Disparaging comments, little slights, things that separate and denigrate people. How might things have been different if in the 1920’s, when the would-be Nazi dropped a small slight against Jews, he or she had been immediately confronted. Prejudice is an insidious force; it interprets silence as permission. So, I pledge that the next time I run into prejudice, I’ll not be content with just asking that it be hidden from me; I’ll take it to task, empowered by the knowledge of and the bravery of all the wonderful people I’ve met here.

[Kimberly]

Elysia - ... beautiful.

I agree we must seek to help others in discrimination... and will not take any part of it lying down - for anyone.