"Permission"

[Lucy Bright]

This was kicked off by a recent thread (and many before it) that used words like “permission” in relation to SOs’ attitudes to dressing. As in “My SO won’t give me permission to dress”, or “My SO lets me dress one afternoon a week”.

I know I’m not the only one whose hackles rise at such phrases – suggesting as they do a wholly unequal relationship more like that of parent/child than SO/SO – especially when it’s discussed in the context of an “agreement” that sounds more like an ultimatum.

Now, I’m not against agreements or rules, where they’ve been honestly and equally negotiated. I don’t think they’re the solution for everyone (each relationship is unique), but they clearly work for some people, and I’m all in favour of what works. If an SO has a problem with dressing then that’s got to be respected, just as much as the CD’s urge to dress – “respect” being the operative word in both cases. But the negotiating position of a closeted CD is not a generally a powerful one, and I imagine that makes an equal discussion extremely difficult – for the SO as much as for the CD.

What’s your experience, those of you who have formal or semi-formal rules and agreements about the whens, whats, wheres and with-whoms of dressing? Even if you didn’t get everything you want out of it, do you feel that you had an equal hand in drawing it up? If it works for you, do you have any tips on how to go about it? Do you think that there are are some areas (this being one of them) where an SO has the right of veto? Conversely, do you feel that no one has a right to demand that someone deny their own nature? All perspectives welcome.

Kisses,

Lucy

[karynspanties]

There are no rules in my house. I am a crossdresser and if she cannot accept it or handle it, then the relationship is over. I will not let anyone tell me what I can do, what I can or cannot wear. I am 43 years old and do not ask permission from anyone. PERIOD.

[deja true]

Glad you put this question up, Lucy...

I've had this converstion in e-mails and PMs a lot but never could bring it up here for fear of starting a flame war. Also, am not in a relationship now so have never been subjected to that kind of forced negotiation.

If a new SO came along, though, the fact of my dressing and the insistence on personal freedom to do so would be very high on my list of needs in that relationship and would be brought up right away.

The negotiators, I think are those who have been caught or came out after many years of hiding it within a relationship and have my sympathy. The un-asked question in your query is "can love make you modify your behaviour and is it worth it?"

[Raychel]

I think a good relationship requires compromise. I would not call the way that my wife and I manage this as permission. She does know that I crossdress, but does not wish to see it, (fair enough)

There are times when I am left at home alone and she knows that I will probably be dressed. She calls to let me know when she is on her way home. Then I out of respect for her, put all my stuff away, till the next time.

So no one person sets the rules, Just respect and compromise make it all a pretty good arrangement.

Would I like to dress more? Sure I would,
Would she like me to dress less? I would say that she would.

But we both compromise as best we can to make the other person happy while still living a fulfilling llife.

:2c:

[Nadia-Maria]

This was kicked off by a recent thread (and many before it) that used words like “permission” in relation to SOs’ attitudes to dressing. As in “My SO won’t give me permission to dress”, or “My SO lets me dress one afternoon a week”.


Don't confuse the "very fact" with the word used to call or mean it. Sometimes the word used is not the best one in the context. I often have this problem, because english is not my mother tongue.

A word like "permission" is probably not well found, but it may fit a reality that is correct however in the realm of a healthy relationship.

I negotiated with my wife that I could dress in her absence : hence you would say I have "her permission" to do it when she is out, and not her "permission" to do it when she is in.

In fact I needn't any permission at all, but instead I have made a personal choice. This choice was not dictated by my wife, but was my own choice of living.

I had the choice to live my crossdressing exactly as I wanted , without any constraints, or to live in a wonderful relationship of true shared love.

I have hesitated, because I know being quite able to live happy alone, and since I am much into being a TGirl.

After thinking quite a while about it, I understood my live would be much more various, deep, full of novelties and surprises , if living with my marvelous SO.
The bottom line would be I will be still more happy with her than alone. Then I am ready to make my best efforts to please her as she is ready to make her best efforts to please me.

True love is not doing exactly the same thing as if we were alone. It's different. We have not always to think to ourselves first. Maybe sometimes it demands a few efforts, but these efforts are very very rewarding.

If we want to reach something, we need to give up something.
It's one of the good life rules.

I don't subscribe at all to the following philosophy for the marriage :

<< There are no rules in my house. I am a crossdresser and if she cannot accept it or handle it, then the relationship is over. I will not let anyone tell me what I can do, what I can or cannot wear. I am XX years old and do not ask permission from anyone. PERIOD. >>


Kisses

Nadia

[battybattybats]

I'm still trying to recover from a long-term relationship that fell apart for a number of reasons and an unequal power dynamic was a very big part of that.

For many the trouble seems to be that the slow exposure required for comfortable successful gradual adaptation and acceptance for many SO's is very difficult for many CD's. It requires extreme patience, self control and more resiliance (meant using the meaning in psychology) then the average person can easilly call upon let alone someone struggling with major issues. Sometimes it even works in reverse where tensions exist because the SO can accept more readilly than the CD!

I think that is often under-appreciated.

It can be made worse with the fact that manipulative behaviour is often considered socially acceptable for many younger women when it comes to relationships, while many older men are set in patriarchal attitudes of authority. Few people even in this day and age actually value an equal partnership.

For success compromise is essential, empathy is even more so and that is impossible without education on the other persons point of view and an acknowledgement from each that the others experiences and feelings are valid. Equality cannot be compromised in any fair negotiation.

My situation was made more complicated with mental health issues, emotional blackmail, controlling behaviour and more.
There is a fine line between needing someone to move with their partners stretching comfort level and direct abuse where someone loses all their autonomy. In abusive situations the abuser often considers themselves the victim and justifies their actions accordingly.

[Tamara Croft]

I don't think people should have 'rules' in relationships at all, it causes more harm than good. Talking, compromising etc on things is far better than an SO laying down the law at their partners imho ;)

[Sandra]

If I hadn't been given the reins after 10 years of knowing about Nigella then we certainly wouldn't be where we are today which is her dressing 24/7. I didn't lay down the law or restricted her to much just said when she could dress, I also helped her at these times. For some it works others it doesn't, there has to compromise as well and a willing to work together.

Perhaps if some didn't go so deep into the pink fog then So's wouldn't have to go this far.

[tamarav]

Every time I see a posting that refers to "permision" or "allows me to..." sort of thing, I just think about attempting to give "permission" to my wife! I would be nutless in short order. She has as strong a will as I do and we see eye to eye and talk about those things that may upset the other but they are still not stopping points.

We have an excellent relationship because we don't have strict boundries on the relationship and listen to each other's desires and wishes.

On the same subject I do deal with women daily that tell me that their husband won't "let" them cut their hair or color it or whatever. They are accepting the limittions within their relationship, not meeting them and negotiating reasonable terms for each.

When I am working on a woman with long hair (I am a hair stylist) that wants to go radically short, I always ask tongue in cheek if her husband has given her "permission" to cut her hair. You should hear some of those ladies. "He has no control over what I want to do with my hair or anything else unless it is a family decision, then we talk". "That sucker can just walk if he thinks he is going to control me!". I think you get the idea.

Compromise in relationships as well as life is usually the best road for long term relationships.

Just my 4 cents.

Tami

[Nadia-Maria]

I don't think people should have 'rules' in relationships at all, it causes more harm than good. Talking, compromising etc on things is far better than an SO laying down the law at their partners imho ;)

I wonder if such generalizations make much sense in that matter of relationships, since people are very different, and couples as well.
For instance, I am inclined to believe that 'rules' may work or may not work according to the personalities and to the situations.

Kisses

Nadia

[MarciManseau]

At one time, I posted something like you did. It really bothers me that a grown man supposedly in an equal loving relationship has to get the permission of his SO before he can be what he feels he truly is inside.

Can you imagine how angry women would be if they had to get permission from their SO before changing their hair color, or buying new clothes?

I agree that if I was in a relationship with an SO (either male or female) that didn't allow me to be the person I really am, then that relationship would be over quickly. We only get one life to live, so why live it as someone you aren't?

I was full time for years before I met Julie, and she knew all about me before we got serious. She's never even seen me in drab.


Hugs, Marci :hugs:

[Sandra]

It really bothers me that a grown man supposedly in an equal loving relationship has to get the permission of his SO before he can be what he feels he truly is inside.

Hugs, Marci :hugs:


Not everyone is the same, I took the reins because Nigella was going to quick for me, it had to be slowed down and this was the way we both decided that it might work for us. Luckly for both of us it did.

[Shannen]

Very interesting thread... so many viewpoints to consider.

For me it comes down to one thing. My desire to remain in the relationship is greater than my desire to dress.

I guess I would say that the relationship is the one giving the permission.

[Di]

I guess it is whatever works for the couple. I am wondering if the rules or permission as you stated comes in when the S.O. finds out years into the relationship...and that is how the S.O makes it work for her/ them to both get what they need.
All I know in our relationship...no rules...just free to be.And that goes for both of us:love:

[Tree GG]

No, permission is as inaccurate as saying you wish your wife would 'accept' when you really mean you wish your wife would enjoy your crossdressing.

There may be some cases where the author does literally mean he has permission; but I'd guess that the majority are really saying that they have communicated with their spouse and this activity/schedule/arrangement has been agreed upon as mutually acceptable and not harmful to the other persons comfort level or the relationship.

He has never asked for my permission to do anything....quite frankly, he will continue on even if I object. Sometimes I'll ask if he's Ok with a an activity or action I've chosen, but most times not. But I will inform him. "I will be doing XYZ this day & time."

But there are non-negotiable boundaries....on both sides. Once crossed, the relationship is endangered. (Infidelity, full dressing in front of kids, etc.) Anyone who says they can do whatever they want, whenever they want is just plain inconsiderate in my opinion. They are technically right, they can do whatever they want, but that is a very childish and selfish perspective. IMO, in any group, you have to consider the needs of the other members to be nearly as important as your own, and sometimes sacrifice what you want for the good of the group. A relationship and family is a group, small but still more than 1.

[MarciManseau]

Not everyone is the same, I took the reins because Nigella was going to quick for me, it had to be slowed down and this was the way we both decided that it might work for us. Luckly for both of us it did.

I think that's how it should be - you both decide what happens in your relationship. My problem is when one person dictates to the other how things will be.

I also agree that if this is sprung on a woman years after a relationship has begun, then it's very hard to deal with, at least initially. Honesty is better from day one. That way, both parties know what they are getting into.


Hugs, Marci and Julie

[Sally24]

I'm sure in some relationships the "permission" thing is real. I think in other cases they just misuse the word when they mean they've agreed to this thing or that. With MY wife, we talk and try to find each person's comfort zone. I try not to do anything that would make her uncomfortable or fearful of problems. Sometimes, as others have stated, we have to back track a little from what I am doing to make her comfortable. At one point I was forever coming upstairs in new outfits and asking her how each one looked. She didn't want to see and comment on each and every outfit. Now I'll ask if she wants to see any of the outfits or pictures, if not, I just continue on my own in Sally's room. We each try to stretch a little to accomadate the other. She has always known as much about all this as I knew. When things change I discuss the implications with her so there are no surprises for either of us.

[docrobbysherry]

Here's a point that's been missed. Usually in relationships, women change and men don't, ( Women from Venus, Men from Mars). That is fairly normal and accepted.

So why is it if the man changes, ( his CDing begins), that's not acceptable? Double standards again?



My divorce had nothing to do with my CDing, but was caused by my lack of control over my ex! She was strong minded and I hate arguing. So, I thot being a "gentleman" and a "nice guy" was the rite thing to do. WRONG!

Our therapist said I was harboring resentment by not telling her things that bothered me. So, I started being the man, but it was too late. I felt better, she hated it! If I had started out by being honest and laying down the law at the beginning of our marriage, she mite have respected me and honored my decisions. Instead, she ended up running over me!

U may think the best marriages r equal partnerships. There r no such things except on TV. One person always has the final say. What may happen is that one partner may have the financial say and the other the social say, for example. BUT THEY AREN'T EQUALS!

If u try to be equals with your SO, I think u r making a big mistake and dooming your relationship. Jusy my 2 cents.

[Dee Jay]

My wife is now totally accepting and supporting of my crossdressing. BUT... I still ask if it's OK to go and get changed.

The reasons are many, but the main one is that I don't want to risk upsetting her. A wife in a bad mood, especially my wife in a bad mood, is not something to be around :)

It's not permission as such, but it's an acknowledgement that if I go and get dressed she will be OK and happy with it.

When she was not supportive, she gave me permmsion to dress when she wasn't around... Yes I have the right to dress as I want, when I want, but is it not better to not upset the people you love by doing things they dislike?

I love my wife more than anything in the world.
My crossdressing used to repulse her. She really couldn't stand it. It made her physically sick.
I wouldn't put her through those emotions by stamping my "I have the same rights" foot down. She hated it, I accepted that she hated it and kept it away from her.

A marriage is more important than wearing a dress. Our life together is more important than what panties I'm wearing.
I can now dress freely, within certain agreed guidelines, but I still ask if it's OK.
It's all about keeping things happy.

Permissions have to be part of a relationship. Can I go out for a drink with the boys? Can she go to a friends for a meal?
It's better this way. Don't take each other for granted.
Ask first, and respect the anwer, especially if you are asking to do something that the other person is disgusted by.

DJ

[Dee Jay]

U may think the best marriages r equal partnerships. There r no such things except on TV. One person always has the final say. What may happen is that one partner may have the financial say and the other the social say, for example. BUT THEY AREN'T EQUALS!


Nonsense!
My wife makes some decisions, I make others. Some we make together. On the balance, we even out. We ARE equal.
We do everything as a unit. Our money goes into and out of joint accounts. Our credit cards are in joint names.
Some bills are in my name, others in hers. It all depends on who set the account up.
What we eat, where we go, what we watch on TV... All decided by both of us... We might watch one thing and record the other. The next week it will be the other way around.
We ARE equal.
My wife earns over twice as much as I do. This matters not a jot.
We're both in jobs we love. Who earns what is not an issue. There is no "MY money" or "Your money", it's all OUR money.

I might decide where we're going on holiday, and my wife will decide what we do when we're there.

We decided what car to buy, even though she is the one who usually drives it. We decided what bicycle I was to buy, even though my wife will never ride it. I chose her bike, she agreed with the decision.

All good marriages ARE equal! If your's wasn't and that was the eventual reason for it failing then I'm sorry.
My wife and I have been through hell over the years. We fought through it, came very close to it ending, but we stuck at it, and now we're very happy together. Happy in an equal partnership, where there is no boss. Just us. Two people living as one, a wonderful son who we both take equal pride in.
It's US, not me and her. Equals, till death do us part.

DJ

[Emily Ann Brown]

I wish my EX would have "offered" me "permission" to be myself, subject to some limits she could live with....but she couldn't live with ANYTHING so she left. Considering she didn't know about Em when we married I would have given up some desires to make her feel she was still part of the decision making in the relationship and was still truly loved and wanted.

I have now met a lady whose company I really enjoy (oh hush JoAnn...giggle giggle). She was told minute one what I was and wasn't, and said "So ??? No big deal. I like it." Should we become a full time couple living together I may not be so willing to give up parts of myself later since she knew everything going in. Even now I still sometimes ask if she will be comfortable with Em being part of certain functions....it's called love and respect.

Emily Ann

[Nadia-Maria]

Here's a point that's been missed. Usually in relationships, women change and men don't, ( Women from Venus, Men from Mars).

"Women from Venus, Men from Mars" are just a caricature. Not every women react the same way, not every men do. People are different. Avoid too easy generalizations. They are neither accurate nor very useful.



U may think the best marriages r equal partnerships. There r no such things except on TV. One person always has the final say. What may happen is that one partner may have the financial say and the other the social say, for example. BUT THEY AREN'T EQUALS!

If u try to be equals with your SO, I think u r making a big mistake and dooming your relationship. Jusy my 2 cents.

You missed entirely the point, it seems. I very much hope you happen to encounter true love and a healthy relationship with a woman in the near future.

Love

Nadia

[JoAnnDallas]

Emily Ann Brown said


(oh hush JoAnn...giggle giggle)

WHO ME.........:whistling: I'm a little Angel :angel:

[Satrana]

You raise an important point Lucy, namely the bargaining positions are usually very unequal. On one hand you have one person who is anxious and nervous about gaining some degree of acceptance and the other person who is often adamant that the behavior is not acceptable. The SO is usually in the driving seat if she chooses to be and the CDer has to work his needs around her objections. The CDer has to rely on his SO being reasonable and sensible and wanting a fair agreement.

Take a typical example of a compromise where dressing is only allowed when the SO is out of the house. Sounds fair enough but what happens if the SO rarely leaves the house? Having to madly grab a couple of hours here and there while keeping an eye on the clock to pack everything away before she returns home is not an fair deal in my opinion.

Any CDer who always has to advise his SO before dressing is in fact seeking permission. After all if she says no, he won't do it. She is thus in control. Personally I am surprised how many CDers find this acceptable but to each their own way.

I told my wife at the start of my relationship so these fun and games never transpired. My wife would probably laugh at me if I sought her permission to change clothes. It is a ridiculous proposition when the SO is genuinely accepting.

[DemonicDaughter]

I think what bothers me far more, isn't the "permission", "let" or "allows" thing but the "uses it against" thing. I've read quite a few times how an SO or ex threatened to (and sometimes did) tell friends, family, children and/or co-workers. Though I understand a relationship going bad can bring out the worse in people, some of these statements have been made by those still in that relationship!

I find it beyond cruel to know any human being would threaten another with exposing something so personal as means of "controlling" them!

As for my own relationship, I would no sooner restrict Kayla than I would want to be restricted myself. I know that were she to attempt to tell me when, where or how I could dress, I'd be gone in a heartbeat. I can understand others needing time to adjust to the CDing situation and don't begrudge them compromise, but dictating? No thank you.

[Nadia-Maria]

You raise an important point Lucy, namely the bargaining positions are usually very unequal. On one hand you have one person who is anxious and nervous about gaining some degree of acceptance and the other person who is often adamant that the behavior is not acceptable.

Very true, as a rule, and especially when there are children so that the CDer may have much to lose in a divorce. But it's not always the case. When the relationship is equal between both spouses, each one has as much to lose as the other : to lose a healthy and rewarding relationship !

Then it's a matter of not hurting the other's feelings, and not to lessen the other's freedom.



Take a typical example of a compromise where dressing is only allowed when the SO is out of the house. Sounds fair enough but what happens if the SO rarely leaves the house? .

It's just the compromise we initially negotiated when I came out to her. It was fair enough because I'm now retired, whereas she travels often abroad for her job. So that I have many opportunities to CD at ease.


Up to now I respected scrupulously our agreement, avoiding any occasion to upset her with my CDing, so that she soon realized CDing was not that threatening for her.

So that, a few months after my coming out, she just invited me to try her own clothes in front of her. Because I take every occasion to try to please her, she uses to act the same way.

Kisses

Nadia

[AKAMichelle]

In a perfect world you are right, but the world is not perfect.

Many of us who have limits are there because we chose years ago to hide this part of our lives from our spouse. The consequence of that action is either to continue hiding or tell and live with limits. That is probably the biggest reason to tell your girlfriend before you marry her. :D

[Nicki B]

I find it beyond cruel to know any human being would threaten another with exposing something so personal as means of "controlling" them!

I have a trans friend who's ex continued to live on in the house as a non-rent paying tenant for 18mths because of the threat of blackmail..


I think all relationships, like people, are different. Some are of equals - in others power is gladly relinquished by one or other. In yet others, it is taken.. :sad: So their rules are unlikely to work for you?

[Satrana]

When the relationship is equal between both spouses, each one has as much to lose as the other : to lose a healthy and rewarding relationship !



If the situation were to be examined objectively by both parties then there is truth in what you are saying. But this issue is rarely considered objectively as it usually produces a very strong emotional response. The SO typically experiences shock, anger and grievance. She believes that she holds the moral high ground because the CDer is introducing something unnatural into the relationship and feels she has a right to dictate the conditions. And more often than not the CDer agrees with these sentiments and feels deeply ashamed and guilty that he is asking his SO to accept something weird and so readily accepts any terms offered to him.

Even if the relationship was equitable before, when you factor in the emotions, the balance of power is knocked askew in favor of the SO. It is really the decision of the SO how this will be handled and if she desires to rebalance the scales. She never asked for this but the ball is in her court.

[Nicole Erin]

I don't think there is too much of this "permission" thing in our home.
Most of my street clothes are basically feminine and the wife says nothing.
I guess as long as I didn't want to be 100% dressed every day, she don't mind. [dolling up everyday is more hassle than I would want.]

The only "rule" my wife has [implied but not spoken] is that we actually have to attend family functions, and it is MY side of the family. :brolleyes:

Something people forget about is that while each spouse controls different aspects of the relationship, the one in control also has to take the bigger fall when things go wrong. Like this -

I control the finances in our home, but when things are tight, I also know it is mostly my fault. She never says this but I personally know it is true.

She has more say over how our kid is raised, but she also bears more responsibility if things are not going well for him.

Anyways, the "controller" must bear the responsibility, whether he/she wants to or not. I cannot blame my wife if our money is tight, and she cannot blame me if our kid does not make it to school in good time.

With control comes responsibility.

[KayR]

This is a brilliant topic. I am lucky to have a supportive and understanding wife. We've had our ups and downs, but she sees me - as do I - as a man in a dress. At first we both were worried that I was "turning", because I am relatively new to being a CD (I didn't grow up with it, it just happened when I was in my 30's). Now that we have established that I am not going to become a trans-female, or that I am not going to start seducing men, our relationship is as strong as ever. After all, I'm a man with a rather unusual hobby. Thats all.
The positive spin off is that, unlike friends of mine who would rather prise an eyeball out than go shopping for clothes with their wife, I'm always keen to go shopping. I make comments, give advice and so on. All round it's very positive. I wish it could be that way for all of us.

[Bev06 GG]

There are no rules in my house. I am a crossdresser and if she cannot accept it or handle it, then the relationship is over. I will not let anyone tell me what I can do, what I can or cannot wear. I am 43 years old and do not ask permission from anyone. PERIOD.

All good relationships are based on compromise and give and take. Sounds like yours is a give and take one alright, she gives you take.
Well I suppose if it works for you thats great.
Bev

[Dawn D.]

The relationship that my wife and I have, seems to be one of mutual respect more than one of granting "permission". She is working very hard to understand this side of me. And, I must say she has gone a number of miles further and faster than most would have expected. I realize that my in situation, my being T/S rather than purely C/D, one would expect much more difficulty in acheiving an arrangement or agreement or whatever. The fact is that with the help of our therapist I realized that even though I want to be the person that I am and live that person's life for the rest of my existance, that if I wish to have my wife remain in the relationship, she needs time to adjust.

Since I have not yet started transition (won't be long though) we have an agreement. It goes like this. At home I am free to dress how I feel. If we have visitors and they do not yet know Dawn or are not yet ready to meet me, then I must change back. If we go out somewhere, I must ask before dressing in femme clothes, if what I am wanting to wear is OK with her. Even if, after being told that it is OK to go out dressed and she should suddenly feel unease about me doing so, I need to allow for her to change her mind and to not want to have me dressed en femme when we go out.

I know it sounds as though it is all one sided. And it may in fact be. The fact of the matter is though, that in allowing for this agreement, she has gained more confidence and acceptance of me and herself! It is very seldom that I get much refusal on her part for what I wish to wear.

This is a slow process that is typically not satisfying to C/D,T/G,T/S's. But in my situation, to have a complete tranisition includes having my wife still with me. That is the goal for both of us. So ask yourself, what do you want out of your relationship with your S/O, wife, partner? Then, are you and her willing to work it out? Here's a thought, if your are married, the two of you made an agreement when you took the vows that bind your marriage. What then is so difficult in creating another agreement to help you continue your relationship in regards to C/Ding or whatever you are? If you love and respect each other the two of you will find a way to make it work.



Dawn

[Tammy298]

I don't like hearing that partners, especially married ones having to get “permission” for anything! That's not what a marriage is about.

Now, to be realistic, there are times, and usually frequent times at least in my experience, that compromises need to be made. If "permission" is required as part of a compromise, it just doesn't seem like an even compromise.:2c:

[Chryl]

4 months ago I ended a 5 yr relationship with a SO, we did not live together, dressing was 1 of the 4 or 5 reasons for ending the relationship, and dressing was the reason this relationship lasted as long as it did, I was always hoping for her to acept it willingly and play with it with me. She would not suggest dressing and did not feel comfortable with me dressed, she tried. As I told her a few months into the relationship, "if this is not freely given and acepted" on at least a monthly basis, I can not hide and be made to feel dirty about this aspect of me.

I have come to the conclusion that this "hobby" of mine and my desire to partake in it is going to lead me to be single maybe for the rest of my life, hope not and will always try to find an acepting SO.

My rule, freely given and acepted, too hard?

Cheryl

[Angie G]

I am married and I cross dress my marriage is 50/50 I dress 5 days a week and not the weekend It works for me I also use make up once a week. I have never been told I can't wear this or that We love and respect each other and are going on 40 years happily married. :hugs:
Angie

[docrobbysherry]

I'm not trying to argue with u NadiaM, because I agree with your underlying point. And this comment may be off the topic. It has to do with "generalizations".

The reason generalzations ARE accurate and useful, is that they r GENERALLY true! If u r the exception to the rule, good for u! But that doesn't change statistics that r accurate on average!



"Women from Venus, Men from Mars" are just a caricature. Not every women react the same way, not every men do. People are different. Avoid too easy generalizations. They are neither accurate nor very useful.





You missed entirely the point, it seems. I very much hope you happen to encounter true love and a healthy relationship with a woman in the near future.
LoveNadia

Nadia, I'm happy that u have a loving relationship! Actually, I believe I HAD that relationship with my ex. When we met, I made most of the decisions, and all of the major ones! But we discussed things fully and worked thru our problems quite well. Over the years, she started taking over gradually. Talking endlessly until I gave in. Until practically everything we did was her way. I learned to say, "No", way too late! Changing the rules 7 years down the road didn't work for us. She had lost her respect for me by then. That is the way I see it, anyway.

It is my belief that if u have a strong, controlling SO, (like mine was), u must stand up to her, or u will be walked on eventually!

U have to learn to JUST SAY "NO". I'm NOT generalizing here, just giving u my opinion and experience!

[Billijo49504]

I met my wife,when I hired her as a baby sitter/ house keeper. My wife had died and I needed someone to help raise my girls, while I was at work. I hired and fired 3 people before I fired her at the alter. That was 23 yrs ago.
But when she was new here, she was doing the laundry, and asked me whoss panties and bras they were. I told her they were mine. and we went forward from there. Since a hilo accident, I now need help straightening my bra strap. And she gets the twist out for me. Yes, I'm looking forward to another 20 something years with her...BJ

[battybattybats]

As to boundaries, there are quite a number of sites on the net defining what healthy relationship boundaries are, often sites for the help of people in abusive relationships.

Most peoples use of boundaries though are the equivalent of building your fence through your neighbours porch (verandah to us outside the USA). I think their are more people have imposed boundaries inside their partners territory than their are people who have not done so.

There is a big difference between stating clearly what you will or will not allow inside your own fenceline to saying what you will or will not allow in the fenceline of the place next door. Too many people, male and female, consider their partner as if they were their property and without any individual rights once inside the relationship.

[Amy Hepker]

Well, I do believe most of us are in a relationship that depends on working with our SO. SOs demand their respect. I do know what you mean, why should we not be able to do what we want, when we want. After all we are adults. But, we are doing something that is still not wholely accepted. No, it is not right, but they do not think we are right to do it to them. Even though we are just trying to be ourselves, who we really are.

[Satrana]

There is a big difference between stating clearly what you will or will not allow inside your own fenceline to saying what you will or will not allow in the fenceline of the place next door.

Its so funny how you describe this as I was having an identical debate with someone last night and came up with similar definitions.

Defining your boundaries means informing people of your beliefs, likes and dislikes so that they can respect your wishes.

Boundaries become conditions when they impinge on other people's rights and freedoms, when they are designed to control another person's behavior.

Seeking permission is an example of a controlling mechanism. It demonstrates a lack of trust and disrespect for another's judgement. There is an unequal balance of power between the two parties.

I can't believe there are many people who want to be in a relationship in which they are controlled by their partner but because of the strong emotions involved, this seems to happen fairly frequently.

[lusciouslisalips]

I am married and I cross dress my marriage is 50/50 I dress 5 days a week and not the weekend It works for me I also use make up once a week. I have never been told I can't wear this or that We love and respect each other and are going on 40 years happily married. :hugs:
Angie

Angie, i too, have been married for over 40 years and she know absolutely nothing about 'lisa' and she would probably divorace me if she ever found out about me---so please enjoy what you have and be thankful for every day of it.........kisses, lisa

[Nadia-Maria]

Angie, i too, have been married for over 40 years and she know absolutely nothing about 'lisa' and she would probably divorace me if she ever found out about me---so please enjoy what you have and be thankful for every day of it.........kisses, lisa

Lisa, why the hell you stay in such a jail a day more !!

Kisses

Nadia



Actually, I believe I HAD that relationship with my ex. When we met, I made most of the decisions, and all of the major ones! But we discussed things fully and worked thru our problems quite well. Over the years, she started taking over gradually. Talking endlessly until I gave in. Until practically everything we did was her way. I learned to say, "No", way too late! Changing the rules 7 years down the road didn't work for us. She had lost her respect for me by then. That is the way I see it, anyway.

It is my belief that if u have a strong, controlling SO, (like mine was), u must stand up to her, or u will be walked on eventually!


What you described in this thread (as well as in the other ones where you refer to your ex) is essentially a disrespectful wife who tried continuously to lower your self-esteem, as a way to control you, and somewhat succeeded in it. Hence, now you seem to blame YOURSELF, because you did BAD (as « saying NO too late »).

Obviously you made mistakes in the relationship, but everybody did and does.
But YOU are not to blame. SHE is, because she lowered you, using a common manipulative strategy, whereas you loved her honestly.

You need to meet a woman who is not of the manipulative sort and who is able to rise you and to help you to give your best, because she will love you honestly and she will respect and admire you.

I hope very much you will find her, because you deserve it.

Love

Nadia

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

If you start out your relationship with complete honesty, lay your cards on the table and empty out your graveyard in the closet... then there shouldn't be a problem. There shouldnt be hard and fast rules on whats allowed, etc etc...

My two cents

Zara

[susanmichelle]

[I think that's how it should be - you both decide what happens in your relationship. My problem is when one person dictates to the other how things will be.

I also agree that if this is sprung on a woman years after a relationship has begun, then it's very hard to deal with, at least initially. Honesty is better from day one. That way, both parties know what they are getting into.


Hugs, Marci and Julie



I totatly agree with this as you cannot be controlled or dictated too. I truly believe that honesty from the very beginning is the real key to a good relationship when being a crossdresser.

[DemonicDaughter]

I have a trans friend who's ex continued to live on in the house as a non-rent paying tenant for 18mths because of the threat of blackmail..

That's just BEYOND wrong! I don't understand how anyone would do that! I mean I know they do and all but I would never want it done to me and couldn't fathom doing so to another person.

[Bootsiegalore]

There are no rules in my house. I am a crossdresser and if she cannot accept it or handle it, then the relationship is over. I will not let anyone tell me what I can do, what I can or cannot wear. I am 43 years old and do not ask permission from anyone. PERIOD.

Ditto.... Only I'll be 45 next week! And the way I keep forgetting things I'd swear I have alzheimers already!

Tara

[kimmy p]

For me "permission" is the arrangement I have with my wife. She supports me quite a bit. But she still wants this to a private matter. I both love and respect my wife, and I realize that my personal clothing preferences could make life more difficult for both of us, so I do not press the matter any further than she is comfortable with.

[battybattybats]

For me "permission" is the arrangement I have with my wife. She supports me quite a bit. But she still wants this to a private matter. I both love and respect my wife, and I realize that my personal clothing preferences could make life more difficult for both of us, so I do not press the matter any further than she is comfortable with.

What do you get in return for this level of restraint that you wouldn't otherwise have got?

This is one of the concerns I have for the way the issue is often handled. Many treat any level of acceptance as a compromise but that is only compromising one persons expectations for their partner, something they really have no right to hold in the first place. For true equality any restraint on the CDers part makes them the partner who is giving up a freedom and so they should get something of equal value in return.

Restraining Cding in return for just being allowed to CD is being cheated.
Sure CDing far beyond a partners comfort level is not going to be good for a relationship (comfort zones might require some discomfort to stretch but like anything pliable too much force and it'll snap) but if viewed as part of a fair negotiation you can't give up part of a freedom in return only for being allowed the rest of that freedom.

For a fair negotiation any dilution or restriction of a freedom or right should be met by an appropriate sacrifice or reward on behalf of the partner that is as valuable to the 1st person as that restriction is to the partner.

[Sheila]

What do you get in return for this level of restraint that you wouldn't otherwise have got?

This is one of the concerns I have for the way the issue is often handled. Many treat any level of acceptance as a compromise but that is only compromising one persons expectations for their partner, something they really have no right to hold in the first place. For true equality any restraint on the CDers part makes them the partner who is giving up a freedom and so they should get something of equal value in return.

Restraining Cding in return for just being allowed to CD is being cheated.
Sure CDing far beyond a partners comfort level is not going to be good for a relationship (comfort zones might require some discomfort to stretch but like anything pliable too much force and it'll snap) but if viewed as part of a fair negotiation you can't give up part of a freedom in return only for being allowed the rest of that freedom.

For a fair negotiation any dilution or restriction of a freedom or right should be met by an appropriate sacrifice or reward on behalf of the partner that is as valuable to the 1st person as that restriction is to the partner.

You know Batty many GG's actually push themselves, well out of their comfort zone, to accommodate their CDing partners goals/wishes/desires, to come to terms with the new man/woman in their partner, many, many times compromises are breached, and we stand by and we take it time after time, continually we play catch up with your walk along this road.


What do you get in return for this level of restraint that you wouldn't otherwise have got?.

So to answer that, a lot of mental anguish. I get to lie to friends and family, I learn that the more I "give my permission" ...by not trying to give him heartache over who he is" , the more self loathing I get to heap on me:sad: ..... but does that matter a jot just so long as the CDR gets what he/she wants ... apparently only CDR's are restrained by CDing ..............

[CD Susan]

This is a very interesting thread. All I am going to say here is this whole idea about asking for "permission" to be a crossdresser is like asking for permission to breathe air to stay alive. The desire to crossdress is something that was assigned to us at birth. We did not ask for this desire it was just there from day one so that is who we are and no permission is required to be this way. This is just my view on this and I would love to hear from other members on how they feeel about all of this "permission" BS. I realise that having a wife or SO makes a big difference in all of this but would not anyone with cd tendencies not have given this a great deal of thought before making a commitment and getting themselves into a situation?

[deja true]

Your story of the girl who can only dress twice a year is shocking, Chi, and shows us a relationship that is devoid of respect. Not only for those two weeks,but for the entire year. But that girl, in aquiescing to that tortuous agreement, also shows us a person lacking in self respect. It has been twisted out of her by a woman who hates her. What a shame! It's emotional blackmail.

No matter how long that marriage has lasted so far, it is a hell on earth, probably for both of them. And would be better for both their souls and psyches to free each other from that mental madhuse. No cost would be too high.

It makes me cry, too.

Not a good start to my day.

deja


(Chi!, please use a bigger font. My old eyes are swimming from that tiny, tiny print!)

[kimmy p]

What do you get in return for this level of restraint that you wouldn't otherwise have got?

This is one of the concerns I have for the way the issue is often handled. Many treat any level of acceptance as a compromise but that is only compromising one persons expectations for their partner, something they really have no right to hold in the first place. For true equality any restraint on the CDers part makes them the partner who is giving up a freedom and so they should get something of equal value in return.

Restraining Cding in return for just being allowed to CD is being cheated.
Sure CDing far beyond a partners comfort level is not going to be good for a relationship (comfort zones might require some discomfort to stretch but like anything pliable too much force and it'll snap) but if viewed as part of a fair negotiation you can't give up part of a freedom in return only for being allowed the rest of that freedom.

For a fair negotiation any dilution or restriction of a freedom or right should be met by an appropriate sacrifice or reward on behalf of the partner that is as valuable to the 1st person as that restriction is to the partner.

Hi Batty, in reading your posts over time you have come across to me as being quite intelligent and I believe that you put a lot of thought into your answers. So saying... 1. I'm not sure that my restraint would be any less if I was single or had a less nervous SO. 2. I get a wonderful wife who means everything in the world to me. If not being "out" with my clothing choices are going to make her happier then it's a small price to pay, I'm satisfied. 3. She is more than willing to take me shopping, and does so regularly. Finally. Batty, it's not a ledger book. A person does not have to get something back for being considerate of another's feelings. Yes freedom is great, but common courtesy and consideration of others is what separates us as humans. I still dress as I wish, and on a daily basis. I simply refrain from trying to pass out in public, and stick to androgynous clothing and shoes. Heck, I have a hard time remembering to sit with my legs closed in a skirt anyways. :confused2:

[battybattybats]

You know Batty many GG's actually push themselves, well out of their comfort zone, to accommodate their CDing partners goals/wishes/desires, to come to terms with the new man/woman in their partner, many, many times compromises are breached, and we stand by and we take it time after time, continually we play catch up with your walk along this road.

So to answer that, a lot of mental anguish. I get to lie to friends and family, I learn that the more I "give my permission" ...by not trying to give him heartache over who he is" , the more self loathing I get to heap on me:sad: ..... but does that matter a jot just so long as the CDR gets what he/she wants ... apparently only CDR's are restrained by CDing ..............

Hmm... looking at this subject as an us Vs them one won't bring clarity only division. So looking at it more accurately, this kind of conflict can be abusive on either side. Unfortunately I don't still have the links but there are a lot of good sites out there that define the difference between psychologicly healthy and unhealthy boundaries and what constitutes abuse.

Sometimes people's comfort zones are where they don't belong but then they can't be shifted overnight. Sometimes people simply can't live up to restrictive agreements, other times they aren't reliable or are not really trying seriously.

But it's not about what one wants Vs what the other wants. Sometimes what one wants or even needs they have no right to get. An SO may want their partner to quit, it may not be possible but even if it were it wouldn't necessarily be right to expect them to, nor to ask them too if 'no' is not going to be an acceptable response. So to a CD may want participation. the exact same scenario applies.

It's about respecting the other persons choice, their consent, their personal sovereignty.


Hi Batty, in reading your posts over time you have come across to me as being quite intelligent and I believe that you put a lot of thought into your answers.

Thanks for the answers. Clearly in your case what is being asked of you is effectively very little, for you. So of course that doesn't require much if anything in return to make it fair. But such altruism is your perogative to grant, not anothers to expect!

What is nothing to one might be the world to another and altruism can be abused all too easilly, especially when it becomes an obligation that is not so readily reciprocated.

I'm glad that you are in a situation that works for you. The same circumstances might not work for some others though.

[Tree GG]

There is not one person on this board that is qualified to decide what my rights, obligations or expections "should" be. Nor me for them. Any psychology text will tell you to get rid of "shoulds". Plus leeching was considered appropriate medical practice at one time.....10 yrs from the now psychologists will have a whole new set of theories.

So just because some (CD or SO) does not practice TG with untethered abandon doesn't mean they are stifled, repressed or unhappy. Happiness can come from sources other than CDing (Eeek! Can it be?) And just because a SO is uncomfortable with some transgender expressions or behaviors, doesn't mean he/she is controlling or manipulative.

If the parties directly involved are happy with the arrangement, then the rest of the world should not judge as our opinion of the higher order is immaterial to them - they've found it for themselves.

[JoAnnDallas]

Tree GG wrote


Plus leeching was considered appropriate medical practice at one time

Believe it or not, but leeches are still used by some doctors.

[Fiona K]

The issue of "permission" may only be appropriate if the partner has no idea about the trans-tendencies when the relationship gets fully underway. If you withhold that information you forfeit the right to a fully equal process.

After all, if she didn't have full disclosure at the outset then she has every right to proceed at HER pace.

[Sheila]

The issue of "permission" may only be appropriate if the partner has no idea about the trans-tendencies when the relationship gets fully underway. If you withhold that information you forfeit the right to a fully equal process.

After all, if she didn't have full disclosure at the outset then she has every right to proceed at HER pace.

Thankyou, Thankyou, Thankyou, ............... a voice of reason amongst the ******** of it all

[docrobbysherry]

The issue of "permission" may only be appropriate if the partner has no idea about the trans-tendencies when the relationship gets fully underway. If you withhold that information you forfeit the right to a fully equal process.
After all, if she didn't have full disclosure at the outset then she has every right to proceed at HER pace.

I agree if U didn't disclose and:
U knew u were going to continue CDing often and U HID this from your SO.
Or, u knew u were going to want to go out dressed, and u hid this from her.
Or, u knew u were bi, but hid this from her.

BUT!

What if u thot u could quit CDing for your "wonderful" SO?
What if the sex was so great with this person, u were sure u wouldn't want, or need to CD any more?
What if u had no bi fantacies when u were with this person? But later on, u did?

Then, after awhile, things changed! The sex became less often and much less "great". And your CD desires returned. Maybe STRONGER than before.

I repeat: Why is it OK for a GG woman to change, or change her mind, but not a CD woman or a man?

And how many of u married or divorced folks talked over EVERY POSSIBLE SCENARIO before u tied the knot? I thot I did, but I wasn't even close! I think very few people know what questions to ask! U have to take a test to drive, but only a blood test to get married. There should be a test before marriage that covers things like;

What happens when your SO becomes fat, unattractive, undesirable, alcoholic, or druggie?
What happens when the sex peters out?
What do u do when u can't handle or pay for the kids and their needs?
What do u do when one of u is unfaithful, maybe more than once?
What do u do when u REALLY WANT OUT, but feel like u must stay for the; kids, relatives, friends, etc. And u CD, etc., to get by?

Dear friends, I think this goes way beyond PERMISSION for CDing! Is there even one of u that can honestly say the only problem with your SO is/was your CDing?

[KayR]

I think we have a well-rounded and varied selection of points-of-view here. Its fascinating how we are all absolutely correct, yet at the same time absolutely incorrect!

[Nadia-Maria]

I agree if U didn't disclose and:
U knew u were going to continue CDing often and U HID this from your SO.
Or, u knew u were going to want to go out dressed, and u hid this from her.
Or, u knew u were bi, but hid this from her.

BUT!
(...)



Hi Sherry,

This time I fully agree with you. It's exactly how I feel too.
Congratulations for your excellent post.

Hugs

Nadia

Moreover, I believe the issue of "permission" may be regarded in respect to WHAT had been promised by both partners when they decided to live together.

Later, whenever you want to do something that is not in the lines of WHAT you had promised to his/her, I believe you have to ask sort of permission from the partner before doing it.

It works for whatever had been PROMISED, something about fidelity for instance, if fidelity were actually a very promise at the beginning.

Whenever you did not promise something, you need no permission to do as you want. If you do things not always exactly as you want, maybe it is because you may truely love your partner, but that's another story.

CDing needs may more or less relate either to TS and/or to some sexual aspects. It may be (or might happen to be in the future) in contradiction with some promises you did, if CDing was not known at the beginning (the future CDer might not have been aware he was CD or would be CD later)


If you had promised to your SO to be her "man" (not everybody do such a promise but most do something like that), crossdressing happening later may be a very problem.
For instance, your SO is right to be afraid you to be TS someday in the future, even if you are not yet aware of it.

Then, It is the case you have to make very clear your needs, and to get sort of permission if it is somewhat contradictory to what you had already promised. The "permission" is in fact negotiating a new arrangement. Of course you have right to a FAIR agreement.
True love between both partners make things much more easy, so this process hardly requires the word "permission" at all.

Hugs

Nadia

[lusciouslisalips]

Lisa, why the hell you stay in such a jail a day more !!

Kisses

Nadia

The only reason is that my children and grandchildren would be heartbroken should i ever venture out of the closet---kiss, kiss, lisa

[Celeste]

I never can understand control tactics in any relationship.I would rather be alone.If a S.O. cannot respect my judgment as being sound,then I would have to reconsider why we were even together.What happens if I don't ask permission.Oh,more control tactics.Exactly the type of relationship I need to avoid.

[kim85]

I think if an SO is having troubble adjusting to their partner been a CD then allowing them to have some form of control over it can be good for them. In all honesty sometimes CDs throw everything at once at their SO and expect them to be ok with it . Well im sorry but how can you expect them to be ok with it after a hour a day or even a few weeks when alot of CD's take years to be comfortable with who they.

In my own personal suituation if i wouldnt want my SO to dress i would say ASK him/her not to (that that ive had to since i found out)

just my 2 pence on it

Kim
xxx

[Satrana]

I think if an SO is having troubble adjusting to their partner been a CD then allowing them to have some form of control over it can be good for them.
But any compromise has to be good for both parties, not just good for one. The key is each RESPECTING the other's needs.

Lets look at a common example. The wife says she does not want to see her husband dressed. OK that is her boundary and he should respect that. But what often happens is this boundary is then used to impose a restriction like - you cannot dress when I am in the house. This is not respecting the husband's need to dress. He can easily dress in another room and simply inform his wife of this. Both are respecting each other's needs without controlling the other.

[battybattybats]

Any consent can and must be able to be withdrawn.

People need to be able to withdraw from any bargain or negotiation (losing out on their fair gain from that bargain of course). It's a fundamental absolute ethical principle.

For a clear example, if someone consents to a sexual act (even with their husband/wife) and then changes their mind halfway though then they have withdrawn consent and any further activity is rape.

The same holds true for any activity in which mutual consent occurs. Even in relationships each person is absolute master of their own body and their private posessions. Shared possessions are even more complex, they aren't for each to do with as they please but in fact require consent on every particular.

This is determined by the ethical principles of individual rights upon which all modern democracies and legal systems are based, the philosophies of the enlightenment.

[Joanna-Louise]

As Kim85's CD-SO id like to comment,

(sorry its a long one :daydreaming:)

I could dress everyday, every hour of my life. Before i met Kim i was struggling with the idea of becomming Joanna full time, after long discussions with family etc i decided not too.

When i told Kim everything, the fact i am a girl etc etc i expected her to either run for the hills or as this thread says impose rules where permission slips have to be granted.

I would have been comfortable for Kim to impose rules where she did not want to see it, for the relationship to be safe, but eventually her non exceptance would tear the relationship apart, as like mentioned above what about my wants and desires.

Comprimise:
While Joanna is usually at home 24/7 when she hasn't got to goto work, as a bus driver i have no real choice but to go as "male mode" than as her. SO kim does get some time to see her "real SO" and not JO.

I think in most cases where the "fem side" has been introduced after love emotions have been formed and the ground work on a relationship have been set, it would def be unfair to expect any SO of a CD/TS to not want a day or two in a month (not much when you think about it) where the female/male side was to be put aside, and the man/woman the SO met gave the SO what they wanted at the start.

Options:

I feel if i am unable to take the fact "STeve" has to be around some of the time, well i guess the relalationship would break down and id loose out on something else that makes me happy and my life fullfilled.


way i look at it, for everything to work all 3 in the relationship need to be happy

Jo

ps sorry if i went alitte off topic... didn't mean too
:love:

[Karen Francis]

Two good points have been taken in this thread. One is the priority angle. You value the relationship more than you value the crossdressing, simply a matter of priorities.
Another one is a no holds barred angle, one that I happen to concur with. Karynspanties said it in the second post on this thread.

My marriage is 35 years old, no she doesn't like what I do, but there again she doesn't like a lot of things I do. Crossdressing is part of the reason we have grown apart.

I have discharged my responsibility to society, raised my children to adulthood, worked hard enough to live comfortably, and taken care of her basic needs(food clothing shelter). I have never controlled her in any way, I don't expect her to try to control me.

Sections of your life are like different books on a shelf. Your early childhood is one, you finish that and put it on the shelf. Your early adulthood is another, raising a family is another and so on. You can take the book down and look at it, but never go back to live in it. At 55 I have opened up probably my last book, it is going to be my best, if she wants to share the journey fine, if she doesn't she needs to open her own book.

[lusciouslisalips]

and i only wish that i could feel the same as you do----so wonderfully independent.....but alas, it is not the wife that holds me back, but rather it is our children and grandchildren that do so now....46 years of marriage, 2 children and 2 grandchildren are a hard thing to walk away from....in my perspective, anyway.......lisa

[kim85]

But any compromise has to be good for both parties, not just good for one. The key is each RESPECTING the other's needs.

Lets look at a common example. The wife says she does not want to see her husband dressed. OK that is her boundary and he should respect that. But what often happens is this boundary is then used to impose a restriction like - you cannot dress when I am in the house. This is not respecting the husband's need to dress. He can easily dress in another room and simply inform his wife of this. Both are respecting each other's needs without controlling the other.

I agree with what your saying satrana thats why i said some control. As with everything in relationships even friendships sometimes you have to compromise. In your exampled thats not a compromise thats pretty much a dictatorship. I know that there are these type of relationships but i personally couldnt be in one like that
Kim
xxx

[suchacutie]

I take it as a given that we are talking about relationships here, presumably relationships in which the two parties (husband and wife, or some variation thereof) have made a formal agreement. It is very likely that these agreements take forms over the entire spectrum of what the human mind can imagine. In my case, my wife and I try to make a single life together, not separate lives under one roof. Whether Tina comes to visit or not is a mutual agreement, not all that different from having some other guest joining us. There are simply times when my wife wants/needs my male self. We also discuss what we will have for dinner, or how we will finance our next car, or, frankly, every other thing that affects US.

On the other hand, I have seen relationships work where the wife goes on her merry way making all the decisions on one hand while waiting on her man hand and foot on the other. I've seen him finally "put his foot down" when he felt she was "out of line" and she bent to his will (at least for a little while). To me, this is a bizarre way of life, but the two I'm talking about will celebrate their 59th wedding anniversay this year (35 for me!).

In yet another instance, I can well imagine that coming out to one's wife about CDing after many years of marriage could be traumatic to the relationship, and might strain it to the breaking point. Yet again, people change and an activity that was ok 30 years ago may have been an accomodation that can no long be accepted...a flaw in the original relationship or a change over time.

Basically, everyone has their own relationship process. We can sit here and cheer when that relationship includes a smooth CDing segment (as I think mine is) and bemoan the fact that others have significant pain associated with this important part of themselves. What we can't do is castigate those who don't match up to our "standards"...which means they don't have the same relationship goals or arrangements.

Be supportive, be encouraging, be sympathetic, but please don't be judgemental. IMHO.

tina

[Carol Richards]

In my situation, after i told my wife(before we were married) she didn't want to see me dressed at all, but after time had passed she must have gotten curious or wanted to see this part of my life. Now she likes to see me dress and helps me with clothes selection. The only thing she asked of me is that I asked if it was ok if I dressed in front of her or not. She has never turned me down yet. In my experience, you can't push her into this decision, she has to want to come to that decision on her own. To me, I will always dress, but my wife means more to me than anything, and I will always respect her decision. You always have to respect your SO feelings if you love them.