Is GID and maladaptive behavior two separate things?

[kittypw GG]

I hope you don't mind me posting this here but I am interested in knowing the answer to my tittle question.

My husband had examples for almost all of the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder. He has been going to a partial hospitalization program. He has completed 4 weeks and will continue 4 more.

Lets go back to the end of March. I have been working overtime (consistantly 100-128 hours a pay period) a lot to make ends meet due to a work related injury that my hubby sustained about 3 years ago. If any of you have read any of my past posts you will know that he was a serious drinker with an honest interest in quiting when I entered the picture. 4 years ago he quit drinking. I knew about the crossdressing from day one but once he quit drinking he started to intensly focus on it. At my suggestion he went to a gender therapist who, after his third visit, told me he didn't want his penis .


Things spun out of control for him and It is the first time in my life that I actually felt depressed and went to a doc to get a script for anti depressants. I realized that I could not live with a man who intended to live as a female, take hormones or have his own boobs. It was a definate deal breaker. Please don't be offended for I have nothing against transexuals, I am not sexually attracted to females period. Friedship is all I can offer. At that time I prepared for divorce but did not kick my hubby out because he was so vulnerable and did not have a solid place to go.

Over time he convinced me that he did not want to be a women and that there would be good stuff comming my way from him, he promised. We stopped going to the "gender" expert because I refused to pay her. How could she know everything was related to GID, she did no testing what so ever. I felt obviously hurt and sandbaged by that stupid women.

Meanwhile at the same time the Gender confusion came up I started to think that he might have BPD. I have a freind in the mental health community that suggested it. I bought the book "Walking on eggshells" and I thought it was written about my life. I also read "I Hate you Don't Leave me" and the
"Angry Heart". All applied to his behavior. We have been to 9 other therapists either together or separate over the last 5 years. After the gender thing he threatened to leave me at least once a week. He is withdrawn, obsessive, anti-social, and like I said he had examples for ever one of the BPD criteria. He yells at me all of the time and threatens to leave/divorce me almost once a week yet he never goes, He has moved down to the basement multiple times, but sleeps ont he couch.
One of the psychologists we went to actually did some testing and Dependant Personality disorder was indicated which is in the same catagory as BPD.

Back to March: He declared that he didn't know if he wanted to be a women and he might want to take hormones. Here we go again I thought. This started the last weekend of March. The next day, I think it was a friday, He left a receipt on the printed for a credit card that I have never seen before.
Several months ago he called me at work all excited and out of breath that he won a computer, printer/fax/scanner combo and some other electronic gadget that he could store many movies on. When I saw the reciept I instantly knew that he did not win that computer. He was very convincing, not only did he convince me but his daughter and my family. I was very upset as any of you would be. It was devistating.

On Monday he called me at work and said that I needed to come home. I said why what did you do? He replied "nothing yet". I made arrangements with a friend to call police if they did not hear from me within the hour. When I got home he was sitting on the sofa with a bag of pills in front of him on the coffee table. He proceeded to tell me that he had two other secret credit cards (balances totaled around 7000 dollars) and he had been hiding 600 dollars a month from me (which is he work comp check) for the length of his injury (3 whole frickin years). He had been gambling the 600 every month.

Before I got a significant raise two years ago I cried to him about not being able to make ends meet and how stressed out I was. Apparently he had no sympathy what so ever, he did not confess about the money nor did he offer any up. I was even letting him use the 100 dollars a month I was putting in a joint savings account so that he could buy his cigaretts. If he would have left it alone I would have 3900 dollars with interest. In Feb he made me feel guilty, said I was controlling all of the money so I gave him 250 dollars. I found out that he got 250 dollars from his flex spending account for a crown that he did not give to the dentist. The grand total that he spent in Feb was 1750 dollars. I was working my days off and going without things that I really wanted. I also payed off his tread mill and the water heater.

We had an appointment with our new thereapits on Tue the very next day. I chose her because she is the expert on BPD and has awards for the most improved patient. He claims he came clean because he couldn't look me in the face any longer. I don't know what he motivation was to come clean. This is when he entered the Partial Hospital program. They extended it for 4 more weeks.

He was taking riperadal and the P-doc was going to perscribe something for obsessive compulsive behavior but he came home with a prescription for Celexa and he is to ween off the rispiradol. I am not sure what is going on. I have not been asked to participate in the hospital program. Many people are on Celexa for mild depression. He is not mildly depressed.

Ok now down to the question. He is telling me that he thinks all of the bad behavior is due to his Gender confusion. I think that he has gender confusion but also has mental illness which requires work on his part and meds.

How many of you think that GID is the only reason for his problems? Do you think that if he were to live as a women or even start taking female hormones all of the other obsessive behavior fade away? Would his mood change from maladaptive to as normal as someone with out mental problems?

I am afraid that he is trying to make everything about gender confusion and will get a pass to not take a look at why he acts the way he does. My guess is that even if he were to live 24/7 as a women, have his own boobs and even have srs he will still not live an adjusted life because of his other problems. They won't just go away if he lives his "true" life will they?

Sorry for the long post but My life is so complicated right now I don't even know what to do or think. Any thoughts????

Kitty

[Kimberley]

Sorry, but I dont think gender is a problem... ever. It is too often an excuse for bad behaviour. I think he has had: a) lousy pdocs (not likely) or b) been uncommitted to his own mental health improvements. Drugs do not do it, they only help alleviate symptoms.

Either he wants to help HIMSELF or not. There is no middle ground and no waffling on this.

Again, gender is not a problem in my opinion. It is all the other crap we put up around it for self protection. If he cant tear down those walls then the future ride is going to be the status quo for both of you.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Nicki B]

My guess is that even if he were to live 24/7 as a women, have his own boobs and even have srs he will still not live an adjusted life because of his other problems. They won't just go away if he lives his "true" life will they?

No. :)

I know a lot of trans people - we certainly don't all behave like this? As you say, it really does sound like some kind of mental disorder? It may perhaps have been triggered by the stress of dealing with dysphoria, but it won't be cured by transitioning.

[kittypw GG]

Kimberly,
Thank you I think he has so many things going on that he may be overwhelmed and wanting to put all of his eggs in one basket. i.e. if he were a girl then he would not have these issues so to speak. Maybe he thinks that will make him a different person. I don't think gender and personality are the same thing. Maybe he doesn't want to really deal with his issues. As long as I keep making his life so easy why would he?

I am seeing my own therapist by the way, but I just wanted to know how many people who transition solved all of their problems by doing so. I think it is unrealistic to think this way in our case.

Kitty

[kittypw GG]

No. :)

I know a lot of trans people - we certainly don't all behave like this? As you say, it really does sound like some kind of mental disorder? It may perhaps have been triggered by the stress of dealing with dysphoria, but it won't be cured by transitioning.



What would you say to someone who is thinking that transitioning would solve all of their problems? Would him seeing a gender therapist help or would it just reinforce that thought that dysphoria is his only problem?

Kitty

[Nicki B]

What would you say to someone who is thinking that transitioning would solve all of their problems? Would him seeing a gender therapist help or would it just reinforce that thought that dysphoria is his only problem?

I guess that depends on the therapist and their experience of mental health problems? Where you thinking of a psychiatrist? (Here in the UK the two are not the same thing..)



Sorry, but I dont think gender is a problem... ever. It is too often an excuse for bad behaviour. I think he has had: a) lousy pdocs (not likely) or b) been uncommitted to his own mental health improvements. Drugs do not do it, they only help alleviate symptoms.

Either he wants to help HIMSELF or not. There is no middle ground and no waffling on this.

Kimberly, have you ever had any dealings with people with mental illness? Or suffered depression?

[Kieron Andrew]

Would him seeing a gender therapist help or would it just reinforce that thought that dysphoria is his only problem?

I actually think he may need to see a regular therapist maybe along side a gender therapist, he seems to have two sets of issues going on here, it is my experience that many (not all) with GD issues also have other mental issues that are an on set of those issues because they cant justisfy the GD issues in their head so they express it in other problems/ways mentally

[Kimberley]

Hi Nicki,
Oh yeah. Big time. I have been seeing a pdoc for 4 years now. I am still on antidepressants although I got off the antipsychotics. A suicide attempt woke me up to reality and I had to change my self destructive behaviour that was also impacting those around me.

Today I am far more comfortable with who I am and what I am and recognize that being trans is not an issue. It is how I deal with the world around me and those close to me that counts. I choose to make that a good relationship as best I can without sacrificing my own identity. If I use being TS as an excuse I am not accepting responsibility. It was a hard lesson that nearly cost me everyone that counts in my life.

It is not and has not been easy but in the end worthwhile because I know that in the end, I am the one who has to answer for my own actions. If I neglect to consider the impact on those I love then I have failed to be true to myself and those relationships.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Kitty

I'm bi-polar, in fact I'm very bi-polar, and it sure sounds to me like that's what's going on here. I also don't think gender confusion has anything to do with it, in fact the BP can be the cause of any confusion there might be in the background.


He declared that he didn't know if he wanted to be a women and he might want to take hormones

This is pure confusion talking that makes no sense, which is what BPD is all about. The spending is a sign of a manic phase, the remorse a sign of the depressive phase, everything is based on up and down cycles. I've done the same things plenty of times till I got a grip on it with meds, but Kat keeps all of the money and the credit cards because I have no control when I'm manic.

Treating it is very tricky and takes time, you have to go through different meds and doses to find what works. I was on Risperdal for many years, it's an anti-psychotic and mood stabilizer, and you really need one of those because an anti-depressant alone won't do much to help. My problem is that my system quickly adjusts to the meds, so I've been through many over the years. Right now I'm on Effexor, an anti-depressant, and Lamictal, the mood stabilizer.

One other thing...the problem with therapists is they can only go on what they're told. People with BPD are real good at leaving stuff out because you can justify anything when you're manic, everything seems just fine. I also don't know of any tests for gender issues, it's something a therapist has to get into your head about, and that all depends on how far they're let in.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Kimberley]

Karen made an excellent point. The therapy is only as good as the client's willingness to be candid. Meds can help but not solve the problem.

A number of psych disorders hold similar symptoms and proper diagnosis can only be accomplished when the client is honest with themself and the pdoc.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Kieron Andrew]

Karen made an excellent point. The therapy is only as good as the client's willingness to be candid. Meds can help but not solve the problem.

A number of psych disorders hold similar symptoms and proper diagnosis can only be accomplished when the client is honest with themself and the pdoc.


Very true....

[Miss Tessa]

After transition I smile so so so so so much more all the time now.
I am bi polar and continue to take meds for it to stay stable and balenced.But I'm freer and happier more than before.

[kittypw GG]

Gk,

My thoughts were actually that an anti-depressant is not all that he needs. Maybe the plan is to add a mood stabalizer also. They don't see what craziness is going on in our home. I'm sure that when he is in the program he seems very put together. He is quite intelligent and has had sucesses in his life. He sort of has been going down hill since I met him though. Maybe I'm the problem? (I don't really think so)

He has a Psychiatrist and a therapist. I am worried that they are not going to see all of the other stuff because he has convinced them that he might be a women trapped in a man's body. Most of the mental health community don't know how to deal with GID. I don't think that GID is what he has.

Gk you are right I think it is the confusion that is talking but what am I to do?
I feel an intense grief inside myself. Why would anyone stay with such a person, why would I care about him, he obviously doesn't care much about me. How does one gage if someone is genuine? He is a very sucessful lier and very manipulative (also BPD traits).

I have decided to just go from day to day right now and watch very carefully his actions, I have learned not to listen to his words. Everyone I know thinks I am absolutly nuts for not kicking him out on his ear. The other day at work I had to keep going to the bathroom to cry. Right now his mood is up but I know it will not last.

I don't know what to do about the crossdressing/gender stuff. I'm sort of in a boat without it's oars....

:hugs: Kitty

[GypsyKaren]

Kitty, you need to talk with these people by yourself and let them know what's going on. They won't be able to discuss what they've gone over unless permission was given to disclose to you, which BTW I've always done for Kat, but they will listen and probably appreciate the input. Kat always comes with me to my sessions because I do forget stuff and get confused, and lots of times I'll be going downhill without knowing it.

I'll tell you something else, when I'm manic I can sell shoes to a snake, then I can charm the socks right back off of him, I feel like I can rule the world and do anything.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Tristan]

I find it odd that they would start him on the anti-depressant first. It's very dangerous for someone who's bipolar to be on an anti-depressant without a mood stabilizer. It can make them more manic, cause them to cycle faster and has horrid long term effects.

[melissaK]

Everyone I know thinks I am absolutly nuts for not kicking him out on his ear. :hugs: Kitty

Be sure to take care of yourself. Plenty of people stay with SO's who have bigger issues relative to their own. But, still, be sure to take care of yourself. And I think you are awash in these issues and your are too close to be effectively diagnosing your husband.

As for your husband's claim that all his problems are from repressing his GID, he may be more right than not. GID patients (for want of a better word) know themself better than anyone on these topics. The feelings are lifelong inside of us, even if we never told anyone else. Burying the feelings does destroy our personalities in time. Depression, dissociative disorders, manic outbursts can all be related.

A lot of what you write about your sojourn with therapists sounds like you are trying to fit him into a mental health cubby hole that avoids the gender issues you don't like. You refused to pay the therapist who gave him the advice you didn't want to hear, and rationalized it with "she ran no tests." There are no GID "tests." Now you are casting about for "any" other mental health label that you can make fit. Perhaps your own needs and wants are influencing your attempts at helping your husband.

I wish you and your husband the best in your efforts to be happy.

hugs,
'lissa

[kittypw GG]

Be sure to take care of yourself. Plenty of people stay with SO's who have bigger issues relative to their own. But, still, be sure to take care of yourself. And I think you are awash in these issues and your are too close to be effectively diagnosing your husband.

As for your husband's claim that all his problems are from repressing his GID, he may be more right than not. GID patients (for want of a better word) know themself better than anyone on these topics. The feelings are lifelong inside of us, even if we never told anyone else. Burying the feelings does destroy our personalities in time. Depression, dissociative disorders, manic outbursts can all be related.

A lot of what you write about your sojourn with therapists sounds like you are trying to fit him into a mental health cubby hole that avoids the gender issues you don't like. You refused to pay the therapist who gave him the advice you didn't want to hear, and rationalized it with "she ran no tests." There are no GID "tests." Now you are casting about for "any" other mental health label that you can make fit. Perhaps your own needs and wants are influencing your attempts at helping your husband.

I wish you and your husband the best in your efforts to be happy.

hugs,
'lissa

Melissa Thank you for your concern, It is good to take care of one's self,
As far a GID is concerned, nobody has been convinced that my hubby has it. He is confused about himself. I don't believe that gender and mental illness necessarily go hand in hand. The problem with the other therapist is that she did no psychological testing (which I am sure are the tools of the mental health profession) not even to get a baseline of his mental status.

I did not diagnose him with BPD, a therapist who is an expert did. He is a high functioning BP and is intelligent. BP's are very good at fooling people and manipulating people. It is said that they fool the best of the best. The "so called gender expert" he saw before did nothing to address any of his other issues such as obsession, risky behavior, selfdestructiveness, anger etc.

It is not so easy to explain what it is like to live with someone like this. Dramma is very high and intense then comes the darkness and withdrawal like GK talks about. I am either on a pedistal or the devil himself, not much in between.

If he were to transition, It would be a deal breaker for me. I would never exclude friendship but to ask him to give up being a women for me is like asking me to give up being a heterosexual. Just won't work. And I don't think this makes me a shallow person either. I am not trying to put him in any box either, I would like to know what his intentions are and who he really is. I deserve to make informed decisions about my life as well. I also know that mentally healthy people do not act like he does and he agrees. You have to acknowledge a problem to resolve it.

There is no shame in having a mental illness. It should be treated like anyother chronic illness. Adjustments have to be made and learning how to manage it is a must. I believe that it can be done.

I think Kieron might be the most right. He may need both kinds of therapists but I think he needs medication and to address his sef-destructiveness and anger first or he will never live any kind of nice life as a guy or a girl.

Thanks for all of your replies. It is so hard to make sense out of things and it helps to have a discussion such as this about it.
:hugs: Kitty

[Nicki B]

As far a GID is concerned, nobody has been convinced that my hubby has it. He is confused about himself.

Well he certainly sounds from all your previous posts as if he's dysphoric to me. Confusion goes with the territory...


As for your husband's claim that all his problems are from repressing his GID, he may be more right than not. GID patients (for want of a better word) know themself better than anyone on these topics. The feelings are lifelong inside of us, even if we never told anyone else. Burying the feelings does destroy our personalities in time. Depression, dissociative disorders, manic outbursts can all be related.

Very true. But they don't tend to be 'cured' by transitioning?

[Valeria]

Um, Kitty is using BPD to refer to "Borderline Personality Disorder", NOT "Bipolar". They are NOT the same condition at all (they aren't even on the same Axis, to use DSM nomenclature).

Gambling is a classic symptom of Borderline PD. So is an unstable personality with a decreased sense of identity. In fact, that's the hallmark symptom and where the name comes from - their "personality" (i.e. identity) is "borderline" for being defined at all.

Other symptoms of borderline PD include mood-related problems, overly dramatic attention-getting outbursts, emotional instability, unstable relationships, unstable self-image, impulsive behavior, and constant crises. Also, being argumentative, irritable, sarcastic, inflexible, maladaptive, and rigid - and, at times, charming.

Personality disorders such as this are extremely resistant to treatment. There are some medications (such as antianxiety drugs, and mood stabilizers) that can help a bit, but it's mostly dependent on a long course of treatment that requires a great deal of cooperation and work from a patient that is usually not inclined to be terribly cooperative. Even then, a complete "cure" is not really a realistic goal - the hope is just that they'll be less maladaptive. Personality disorders aren't really considered completely "curable" - they are thought to be core aspacts of a person's personality.

I grew up with a bipolar parent, so I've got a really good idea what it is like to live with someone bipolar. I'd choose a bipolar life partner over one with borderline personality disorder 10 times out of 10. It's not even close. As bad as mania is (and it's really bad), bipolar people aren't manic all the time (and the drugs actually work really well in many cases).

The description I've been given of Kitty's husband matches Borderline PD extremely well, though it's hard to distinguish one Cluster B PD (dramatic, emotional & erratic PDs) from another based on an online description - even a really detailed description. Other Cluster B PDs include antisocial PD, histrionic PD, and narcissistic PD. Needless to say, none of these are what you look for in a life partner.

As Nicki said - there are plenty of trans folk who don't suffer from any personality disorder of this ilk. And the few that do don't get ANY better with transition in my experience. One of the few trans folk we've banned from TrueSelves had a cluster B personality disorder, and we banned her because she was so unpleasant that people were leaving because of her.

Could Kitty's husband also have GID? Sure, it's possible. The problem is that the unstable sense of identity makes that awfully damned difficult to figure out. It's conceivable that his borderline PD symptoms are a result of particularly maladaptive coping with GID, but it's as least as possible that his latching on to GID as a "cure" is a manifestation of his borderline PD. Most likely, he has borderline PD coupled with some undefined degree of gender uncertainty or confusion.

I know a lot of people hate "gatekeepers" (and I mostly agree), but screening for conditions like this is precisely what a good therapist is supposed to do before approving relatively radical medical interventions like hormone replacement therapy and genital reassignment surgery. :shrug:

[kittypw GG]

Could Kitty's husband also have GID? Sure, it's possible. The problem is that the unstable sense of identity makes that awfully damned difficult to figure out. It's conceivable that his borderline PD symptoms are a result of particularly maladaptive coping with GID, but it's as least as possible that his latching on to GID as a "cure" is a manifestation of his borderline PD. Most likely, he has borderline PD coupled with some undefined degree of gender uncertainty or confusion.

I know a lot of people hate "gatekeepers" (and I mostly agree), but screening for conditions like this is precisely what a good therapist is supposed to do before approving relatively radical medical interventions like hormone replacement therapy and genital reassignment surgery. :shrug:

Thank you Kehleyr, You have validated much of what I was thinking. Especially the last part about screening for mental conditions like this before approving radical treatment.

I feel that the therapist that my hubby went to 4 years ago convinced him in a way that he was trans. I think that he felt good that someone in a professional capacity accepted him but someone with this disorder does have a lack of identy or sense of self and could be vulnerable to such suggestions.
I think she told him that he could start right away on hormones (no state law against it or any rules pertaining to it) and she told him where to get them.

I believe that there is validity in the fact that someone feels they are not the gender of their birth. I also believe that such people feel much like they were born deformed with the wrong genitalia. I have no problem with someones pursuit of correcting their "deformity" and living their true life. I just think that if someone's mental status is not examined at least initially, a person could and probably do, end up with an outcome that was false or wrong but irreversible.

It is terribly difficult to live with someone who is afflicted with BPD. Add in gender confusion and wow. I doubt myself all of the time because of all the caios going on in our home. I just feel in my gut that focusing on the gender issues is the wrong approach in this situation. I guess I was looking for validation.

I don't know wether or not we will stay married but I really am concerned with his getting the right treatment as long as we are together. It is one day at a time at this point.

Thank you all so much for your responses.
:hugs: Kitty

[Melanie85]

DISCLAIMER: I AM NO EXPERT


I hope you don't mind me posting this here but I am interested in knowing the answer to my tittle question.

My husband had examples for almost all of the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder. He has been going to a partial hospitalization program. He has completed 4 weeks and will continue 4 more.

Lets go back to the end of March. I have been working overtime (consistantly 100-128 hours a pay period) a lot to make ends meet due to a work related injury that my hubby sustained about 3 years ago. If any of you have read any of my past posts you will know that he was a serious drinker with an honest interest in quiting when I entered the picture. 4 years ago he quit drinking. I knew about the crossdressing from day one but once he quit drinking he started to intensly focus on it. At my suggestion he went to a gender therapist who, after his third visit, told me he didn't want his penis .


Things spun out of control for him and It is the first time in my life that I actually felt depressed and went to a doc to get a script for anti depressants.

Hmmm could go either way... perhaps his drinking was his way of coping with his subconscious sex not fitting in with social gender. BUT, many stories of people who regret transitioning/were falsely diagnosed as trans occur when they come to the conclusion they are trans as they are in a very traumatic/stressful point in their lives. So... I hate to say this (damn evil gatekeeper-wannabe me!), but you might have to wait and see if he still feels trans after getting over/suffering less from his other problems.


On Monday he called me at work and said that I needed to come home. I said why what did you do? He replied "nothing yet". I made arrangements with a friend to call police if they did not hear from me within the hour. When I got home he was sitting on the sofa with a bag of pills in front of him on the coffee table. He proceeded to tell me that he had two other secret credit cards (balances totaled around 7000 dollars) and he had been hiding 600 dollars a month from me (which is he work comp check) for the length of his injury (3 whole frickin years). He had been gambling the 600 every month.

Before I got a significant raise two years ago I cried to him about not being able to make ends meet and how stressed out I was. Apparently he had no sympathy what so ever, he did not confess about the money nor did he offer any up. I was even letting him use the 100 dollars a month I was putting in a joint savings account so that he could buy his cigaretts. If he would have left it alone I would have 3900 dollars with interest. In Feb he made me feel guilty, said I was controlling all of the money so I gave him 250 dollars. I found out that he got 250 dollars from his flex spending account for a crown that he did not give to the dentist. The grand total that he spent in Feb was 1750 dollars. I was working my days off and going without things that I really wanted. I also payed off his tread mill and the water heater.

Asshole.


One of the psychologists we went to actually did some testing and Dependant Personality disorder was indicated which is in the same catagory as BPD.
Dependent Personality... he can't live without you/live alone??... hmmm sounds manipulative
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/manip.shtml



How many of you think that GID is the only reason for his problems? Do you think that if he were to live as a women or even start taking female hormones all of the other obsessive behavior fade away?
I know it's been known in some transpeeps to cure Manic Depression and other forms of depression (actually, that's most likely because the depressions were manifestations of gender dysphoria to begin with... I know my dysthimia will most likely be cured once I fully transition; I can find no other plausible cause of it, and I've read an autobio of another Tgirl who was also had childhood, teen depression, had other things in common with me and it went away when she transitioned. Of course, I imagine it wouldn't magically go away; she is a psychologist and I am very introspective/I've been working with my problems for a while, we're both positive thinkers and I pulled myself out of depression without any help from therapists, only with 50mg Sertraline and my introspection and ambition)


Many people are on Celexa for mild depression. He is not mildly depressed.
Many drugs can have off-label uses; the immunosuppressors I take for Crohn's Disease's is actually a leukemia drug

[Melanie85]

I'm bi-polar, in fact I'm very bi-polar, and it sure sounds to me like that's what's going on here. I also don't think gender confusion has anything to do with it, in fact the BP can be the cause of any confusion there might be in the background.

[...]

Karen Starlene :star:

Oh yeah kitty when I called your hubby an asshole, what I really meant to say is what the giraffophile said up there...:D he should not be trusted with money... do not feel guilty about taking control of all the finances; you have a legitimate reason and it's not really his fault it's the illness. And you're not a bad person if you feel anger towards what has happened to you. *HUG*

[Joy Carter]

Kitty love is a sharing thing. Giving back more than you receive. You have been the giver but not a receiver from what you say. It's time you start being good to yourself, rather than staying on a sinking ship.

Transitioning will not solve any mental issues. Only exacerbate them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't look at being in the wrong gender a mental thing. I'm sure there are others here who will disagree.

[GypsyKaren]

Kehleyr, the symptoms you list are pretty much identical to my life as a bi-polar, especially the gambling. Bi-polars are extremely susceptible to addictions of any kind, we tend to abuse everything we touch. Of course not everyone is the same, people are effected differently and can face a different set of problems.

Treating bi-polar can also be a crap shoot for many, it sure has been for me. While there are many who respond well to meds, even low doses of Lithium, some of us have problems. I usually respond well to new meds, but it never lasts, sometimes the benefits go away after a few days. The best I did was on Risperdal, that worked for 7 years, but even then I had to take enough Attivan to put down a horse, and I now have permanent memory loss from that. I'm on Effexor and Lamictal now and doing well with my fingers crossed, but I've been through an awful lot of different meds over the years.

Bi-polars can also cycle much differently with widely different lengths, and the problem is we usually can't tell we're doing it or even if we're up or down because everything seems normal to us through it all. It really takes having someone close to you who can keep an eye out on your behavior and know what's coming, I rely on Kat to watch me. I'll be doing or saying things that can really be off the wall, but I don't know it or understand why it's a problem, it all seems perfectly normal or OK to me.

I don't know what's going on here, that's for the doctors to decide, but it sure sounds a lot like me, and I've been diagnosed as bi-polar by 6 different p-docs and therapists over the years. Could it be the basis of GID? Who knows? Bi-polar can put some pretty weird stuff going on in your head, that's something I do know.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Valeria]

Kehleyr, the symptoms you list are pretty much identical to my life as a bi-polar, especially the gambling.
From an external perspective (at least, from my perspective), bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder aren't very similar at all.

I mean, borderline PD people exhibit symptoms of mood disorder, but that's just the icing. Most of those symptoms I listed aren't just temporary effects from a current mood episode - they are like that *all* the time. Even untreated, most bipolar people have manic episodes well less than half the time. Bipolar people in a manic episode may be very impulsive (and overconfident), but they aren't manic continuously for years at a time (and good thing too - they'd kill themselves).

And there are still some really huge differences. I've know several people who were bipolar, and while they had their moments they have been perfectly likeable. They are capable of forging friendships and bonding with people. They are capable of being in loving relationships without it necessarily being a living hell.

I mean, I could post a list of symptoms for a whole bunch of different syndromes and disorders, and doubtless many people here would go "hey, that sounds like me!" or "that sounds like my mate/brother/friend/coworker". But that's just because short (or one-word) descriptors are vague. Most of the people thinking that wouldn't even be close to a match. I was on another forum where someone convinced herself she was schizophrenic, based on her matching a list of symptoms. Except when I gave her a detailed description of some of those individual symptoms, with examples of how it manifests in real life schizophrenia, she conceded she didn't come close to matching any of them. This is the problem with self-diagnosis of these types of things.

Anyway, I've chatted with you a lot, and you don't seem even vaguely like someone with borderline PD to me (and none of the meds you are on would really change that). Contrariwise, Kitty's husband (from a fairly detailed description) doesn't sound bipolar to me. Now everyone is unique anyway - these labels are just used to describe a set of behaviors that tend to be found together, and that tend to respond to similar treatments. Psych is definitely still a very soft science.

But the bottom line Karen is that I like you, and you seem reasonably adaptive. You are very capable of getting along with other people. That's not a textbook example of most people with personality disorders of this ilk. The people I've known with personality disorders were irritating as hell. I think you are projecting your experiences onto those of Kitty's husband.

[Disclaimer: Before someone posts that their sister was diagnosed with bordeline PD, and she's the sweetest person in the world, and I'm an idiot... I will concede that I'm talking in broad generalities, and everyone is unique. Still, part of the diagnosis of having a personality disorder is that their ability to function is significantly impaired.]

[kittypw GG]

Kehyler is right, Borderline PD is not the same as Bi-polor

The criteria for Borderline PD is:
1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships
characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization
and devaluation.
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image
or sense of self.
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging
(e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, shoplifting, reclkess driving,
binge eating, etc).
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures or threats, or self-mutilating
behavior.
6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense
episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and
only rarely more than a few days).[Dysphoria is the oppsite of euphoria.
It's a mixture of depression , anxiety, rage and despair]
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness.
8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent
displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights.)
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative
symptoms.

Some people with Borderline PD:
. Experience reality differently than you do
. Make unture accusations.
. Blame you for things that aren't your fault
. Criticize you all the time
. Change their wants and opinions with lightning speed
. Put you in no-win situations
. Push you away just when you are feeling close
. Act in ways that feel manipulative to you
. Deny the effects of their behavior on others
. Deny that their behavior is problematic.

Living with someone who has Borderline PD is like living in a Pressure Cooker

The above descriptions were taken from "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Mason & Kreger. This book describes my life with my hubby.

Another book that has a telling tittle is "I Hate you Don't Leave Me"
My hubby constantly blames me for his anger and says he is through with me and wants a divorce but never leaves.

I think it is dangerous to focus on gender confusion with someone like this. Since they have such a lack of self and an unstable identity I feel that this is the very type of person that could be driven to do something they can't undo like SRS, thinking that it would solve all of their problems when in fact it would not.

Thanks for all of your replies.

[melissaK]

Its not my thread, but I wanted to thank everyone for the posts . . . A lack of concensus is usually thought provoking and it certainly was this time too.

hugs,
'lissa

[Nicki B]

I dunno - is anyone suggesting transition is going to solve this? I don't think so.. :sad:

[Kieron Andrew]

I dunno - is anyone suggesting transition is going to solve this? I don't think so.. :sad:

I dont think Transition will solve his problems but i do think Gender Counselling will help lay to rest any mix up feelings he has in his head about wanting to be a girl...but thats not after some extensive therapy to deal with the other issues?...no i dont think transitioning is the answer

[Beth-Lock]

Sounds to me that he is in no fit state to handle GID by transitioning. Psychiatric diagnoses are often a matter of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, they just don't fit reality if one expects a good fit like a physical illness' diagnosis. I would not take labels seriously, though it sounds like he has one of the big ones. I am glad he has you to support him through this difficult time in his life. Hopefully, with some decent psychiatric treatment he will eventually settle down and be able to deal with GID or etc. issues in a more sensible way. My heart goes out to you both.

[kittypw GG]

Thanks Beth,
All prayers and well wishes are not only welcomed but desparately needed.
I don't know how much longer I can support him for this is a very difficult situation and certainly not one that can be cured. After almost 6 years of marriage, I am worn out and stressed to the max. I don't know if I am able to continue my support, the partners of such people reap very little benifits from the relationship. It could take years for him to come to any sort of stability and he has developed no real bond to me except for one of dependence on my financial support.

He does say that he loves me but I doubt that he truly feels love like I expect him to and there is definately a lack of a sense of responsibility to me on his part. Obviously trust is a huge issue. I just don't know where I stand in this. At this point I have really tried my best to make it work but under the assumption that he has "normal" thoughts and emotions. I am proceeding with caution but I have made no promises for a future.

Thanks again for all of your responses.
:hugs: kitty

[LauraKCD]

Kimberly,
Thank you I think he has so many things going on that he may be overwhelmed and wanting to put all of his eggs in one basket. i.e. if he were a girl then he would not have these issues so to speak. Maybe he thinks that will make him a different person. I don't think gender and personality are the same thing. Maybe he doesn't want to really deal with his issues. As long as I keep making his life so easy why would he?

I am seeing my own therapist by the way, but I just wanted to know how many people who transition solved all of their problems by doing so. I think it is unrealistic to think this way in our case.

Kitty

Kitty,
I've been around people with mental health issues, and completely agree with you. There is much more going on with his mind that needs attention.

I admire your courage and the way you have tried to help him, but he must also be willing to help himself.

Best of Luck to you
Laura

[Sejd]

I don't think that TG'ness has anything to do with personality disorder. People who transit from male to female or the other way arround do not have to be like your partner at all. In you case I would keep the two things separately. From your story, it sounds like he is all over the place and not being a giving, loving or responsible partner. It makes me wonder what you are getting out of living with this person? Clearly, some heavy duty therapy is needed. I am sorry you have to deal with this. Thanks for sharing and I wish you all the best in solving your difficult situation.
hugs
Sejd

[kittypw GG]

My husband did almost three months of partial hospitalization and is not going as an out patient. He has choosen to put all of his eggs in his transexual basket and is thinking that turning into a girl will fix all of his problems.

He has grown his hair to shoulder length, has long fingernails, wears earrings and has moved out on May 1 with the intention of cleaning me out while I was out of town for my nephew's wedding on the 2nd of may.

I found out that he had three secrect credit cards that he was sending to his mother's address for the past two or three years. I found out that he was hiding 600 dollars a month and gambeling while I was working overtime on my days off. I found out that he really wants to be a women and take hormones.

He left on May 1, spent one night in a hotel and moved in with a girl from group therapy that he has known for 3 weeks. He has maxed out his sam's card and spent 1000.00 from may 1 to may 15. He has also maxed out the two other credit cards I know about. I have no idea of the status of the three other ones but I think I could safely assume that he has maxed them as well. I got a letter declining him for credit from us bank the other day.

I have filed for divorce and he has til june 16th to reply to my attorney.

The time I have known him has been the most stressful and emotional time of my life and I am left weary and very very sad and appalled that a person could be so decietfull and hurtful to someone they claim to love.

I realize that he is incapable of feeling loyalities to others and is incapable of forming anything other than superficial realtionships with others but I guess I have never know such a person so I had no reference point to gage it to.

I tried my very best to make things work but what I did not realize is that he could never make it work inspite of anyone's efforts.

It will take me a very long time to recover. Every day I am in shock and disbelief. But I'm a survivor, I will perservere, not undamanged but maybe I can turn it into something positive. I just don't know what that would be right now.

I think he read your responses so maybe he will consider something someone said for his own good. He has informed me that he will no longer visit this site.

Thanks again for all of your responses.
Kitty