Wife says OK! Should I play?

[Stapler]

The last time I was here was in 2006.

Since then my wife and I have enjoyed dressing me up many times.

She is not turned on by it as I am however she enjoys doing my hair and makeup.

I have thought seriously about going out and meeting a man as being (romanticaly) with a guy while I am dressed up apeals to me. We role play and we imagine and tell stories while we are in bed about these fantasies and I simply asked her what she seriously thought of the idea.

While not being entirely over the moon about it and feeling a little threatened by it which I feel it quite natural, I told her that I actually would be OK if she just plainly said "NO" if that is how she felt.

My problem is that in 16 years of being together I have never strayed other than pashing with some drunk while I was drunk too quite some time ago. I value my relationship and I wonder whether sleeping with a guy with no guilt from "cheeting" is something I really want to do and if it is whether I can live with it OK.

What are your thoughts?

[Annaliese]

Cheeting is cheeting. Your wife in not ok with it. So NO!!!!!!

[Kieron Andrew]

nuh uhh deal breaker right there, you married your SO for better or worse, cheating is cheating! you wanna sleep with a man, then leave the wife alone

[Vicky_Scot]

I will probably be accused of being unsupportive but imagine putting your wife of 16 years in that position.

Fantasies and real life are completely different.

The headline state the wife says ok but I can not see where in your post that your wife says it's ok.

[lu-bunny]

if she said it was ok, in my mind it isn't cheating and she has no right get mad if you do, she shouldn't have said ok if she really wasn't ok with it. :2c:

[Dee Jay]

Some fantasies are best left fantasies.
Fulfilling this one could ruin everything.
Leave it alone and stay faithful to your wife. You are lucky to have her, so don't risk losing her.

DJ

[Desiree2bababe]

Go for IT if she says OK. Maybe let her pick out the man.

[KimberlyS]

Saying ok is one thing. Being ok with it afterwards is something else. If there was any hesitation to your wifes answer I would say no. Also double check with her on her answer if it was yes. How do you feel about her being with another guy? Some can deal with having a more open relationship. Most people from an article I read, need the one to one commitment in a relationship. The article went on to state that even if the relationship stayed together after wards, the relationship was never the same and usually for the worse. It also stated it mattered little if the third party relationship was once or multiple times and if it was known ahead of time or behind the back of the other person (ie cheating). And the one affected was not always the other partner. Often the partner that had the other relationship changed in how they were within the main relationship being more distant and less involved.

Just some thoughts. I found it an interesting article at the time and have referred to the information multiple times. I just wish I could reference the source. It was pre-internet in some magazine if I remember correctly.

[Stapler]

Thankyou all for your replies.

[jaina]

When she says its ok, its not cheating.

[kim85]

If it was me id say stay clear, maybe she said yes in fear........ fear that she may lose you and wants to keep you happy.
How would you feel if she turned and said to you she wanted a night out with another male who doesnt dress !!!! Would you be able to still look at your wife the same way

Just my thoughts
Kim
xxx

[MJ]

NO please don't do that. as Kim said how would you feel if it was your wife !!!
Be Thankful of what you have . you may end up losing it all !!

How come you don't look at each human being male or female as a biological hazard until medical cleared ? eww . i am sorry if i had a wonderful woman i make dame sure i do my best to keep her ... i am not a big fan of the clapper

[UASIANGAL]

The last time I was here was in 2006.
I value my relationship and I wonder whether sleeping with a guy with no guilt from "cheeting" is something I really want to do and if it is whether I can live with it OK.

What are your thoughts?

My personal feelings on this is a bit shocking. First, I would think you are bisexual now? If you have realized this, it is great that you have come out about it to your wife, along with CDing (which most folks thinks we are gay anyhow!). Let's not fool ourselves, your wife is NOT ENJOYING any of this and maybe she also wants to stay a marriage too after 16 years as change is hard. I would not want to have another relationship if I was married since I have signed a legally binding contact to be faithful. I would get a divorce, set my spouse free and if we can still be friends and lovers, wonderful. It is great to indulge in one's fantasies, but I would not do so if it would hurt someone I loved. Where is our sense of moral responsibility? In this case, if you were single, I would say absolutely go for it, but here, I really feel sympathy for your wife.

[UASIANGAL]

When she says its ok, its not cheating.

Yes, this is cheating. A signed marriage contact supercedes a verbal approval. Try proving she said yes in court!

[guardian832]

The words "feeling a little bit threatened" should be screaming the answer into your head; cheating is cheating, and it's just plain WRONG to consider doing that to someone who has been at your side for so many years:straightface:

[Dana]

No! Just that plain and simple!

Its a fantasy of yours and fantasy seldom matches up to reality!

[~Seana~]

Sigh. Mine may be an unpopular answer here.

I'm about to be married, less than 2 months in fact. I love her dearly and intend to spend the rest of my life with her. I'm also ethically polyamorous. I DO have relationships with men. My spouse has absolutely no fear whatsoever I'll ever leave her for a man. Bear in mind she also CD's and is ALSO polyamorous. She has a GG girl who has some male personass as well. Welcome to the gender****.
Now my fiance DOES have problems if I was to play with females. So I shy away from them, and that includes anyone who starts transition through HRT...off limits. By limiting the people and being respectful of others feelings poly families can work extremely well. Mutual and regularly scheduled STD testing makes sure that nothing slips into your circle . And I wont play with anyone who isnt either single or who's partner isnt both aware and consenting. That eliminates alot of partners. Think of it as being an ethical ****.

So when I see a post like this I ask myself:
1) are yoou willing to be respectful of your partners wishes and feelings?
2) is she ok with it?
3) How would you feel if she TOO took on a partner?
4) are you prepared to march your ass to the doctors every month and get tested and to be vigilent and assurtain that your partners are going to do so so your lovely and accepting wife doesn catch hepc HIV or clamydia?

Think about it

[UASIANGAL]

Gee Amanda, did you just hijacked this forum!? :devil:
I just wonder why bother getting married? Will you be changing the marriage contact so you both DO NOT have to be faithful to each other. Maybe there are tax benefits to being married or you want to have children. Good luck and congratulations. I would envy an open and CD accepting relationship like yours and you sure are challenging the concept of marriage!

[shalini_ukunge]

Some couples handle open relationships quite well, but only if it was part of the deal before marriage. Otherwise, cheating is cheating, and your marriage will never be the same again.

Don't do it under any circumstances. But the very fact that she said it was OK is worrying...

Take care, be safe.

Shalini

[~Seana~]

Gee Amanda, did you just hijacked this forum!? :devil:
I just wonder why bother getting married? Will you be changing the marriage contact so you both DO NOT have to be faithful to each other. Maybe there are tax benefits to being married or you want to have children. Good luck and congratulations. I would envy an open and CD accepting relationship like yours and you sure are challenging the concept of marriage!

Sweetie i have children. One by her. Two from a prior partner. She also has a child who I stepfather. Very full life.Why bother getting married? Because she's my primary partner and I intend to spend the rest of my life with her. She introduced me to poly. Slowly. I accepted slowly and I've become quite happy with my life. My needs are met. Hers are met. YOu just have to look at it differently. If you love someone does it not make sense that you want to see them happy? If THEIR needs arent being met they arent likely to be.

[KimberlyS]

Amanda that is a great response for that type of relationship. I think what is key is:


She introduced me to poly. Slowly. I accepted slowly and I've become quite happy with my life. My needs are met. Hers are met. You just have to look at it differently.

This was not an over night decision of yours. It was not something you jumped into for the long term. And it is not "play" to you. And it is known pre-marriage.

It is a similar thing we go through with being CD, TG, TS and homosexual. The world most of us grew up in has been defined:

Marriage = 1 Man + 1 Woman]

What ever your beliefs, religion, society most of us have had that equation ingrained in our heads and within who we are. It all comes down to acceptance of others that are different than yourself. As long as they are not affecting and hurting others, and if it works for them I say great. It is a situation many fantasize about. But for most of us our reality and what works for us is my previous post and the fact that one man and one woman is the marriage relationship that works.

P.S. I personally think Stapler and wife need to go toy shopping. Adult toys that is. Maybe his wife will enjoy sticking it to him and that will be all he needs. Or he may get over these thoughts really quick.

[StephanieH]

Absolutely NOT! Cheating is cheating is cheating. If you've got a tolerant and supportive wife, enjoy her and cherish her, role play all you want, have the fantasy if you want, but once you cross that threshold I think you can kiss those sixteen years of marital bliss goodbye, and I wouldn't blame her. :2c:

[victoriamwilliams1]

Cheating is cheating, IMO no!

[Jodie_Lynn]

Its been said before, but bears repeating:
Cheating is cheating. You are violating your marriage vows to play with another person, whether it is male or female or in between, and whether or not your spouse gives you consent.


And, if you DO go out and sleep with another man, do you think your wife will ever look at you the same way again? Seeing as how she is tolerant, but not thrilled with your femme persona.

[brendaisagirl]

Cheating is cheating, does not change your marriage vows just because is turns you on.
Brenda

[tgirlinva]

I think you need to think deeply and see whether being with a man is a fantasy or a need. If it is a fantasy, then it may be easier to suppress than if it was a need. Many of us have fantasies that range from "normal" to "extreme". While we may realize it, some, if not most, remain what they are: fantasies. On the other hand, if it is a need, then you'll eventually do it because it will be like a burning sensation that you will catch up to you and will beg you to get rid of. One day or another, you'll do it. Since the topic appears to be on the table, I would ask your wife what she really thought. Yes, it's unfair to her and I wouldn't die to be in her position, but she may actually be supportive. If she's not, then you know her position and you can judge consequently. Regardless, you will have consulted her BEFORE the fact. I wouldn't recommend doing it, THEN telling her hoping that she would be on-board with the situation. That would be disrespectful to her and to your marriage. If she's not supportive, then you can decide whether being with a man trumps being with your wife. Only you can decide. But to me, cheating involves doing something without someone else's approval. In parallel, if you cheated on an exam in class and the professor knew about it, it wouldn't be termed cheating. With your wife's approval, to me, it's okay to do it. But warning! She may be okay at first, but then change her mind.

[~Seana~]

Id expand on what tgirlinva said. Even if she is supportive I'd ask her what reservations she has about it AND LISTEN TO HER. I mean REALLY REALLY listen and try and get at the root of what reservations she has understand them. If her fear is she'll lose you to a man then find out why she feels that way and try to understand it. It may not be the best move to just think "well I've got permission so I'm going to go off to go it" .If you ever once suspect she's holding out on her true feelings and fears simply say "Then I'll hold off and we'll talk about it more sometime" and then stick to it. You arent going to die from waiting and certainly shouldnt be in a hurry. Also as I said before dont get involved with ANY man who isnt prepared to show you the results of their latest STD testing first. There are some who would be more than happy to...and it's not worth the risk. Use sense about who you're dating. BE CHOOSEY and if it doesnt feel right walk away no matter how much you want it.
If you are going to do this, then her comfort with it is paramount. She may surprise you. She may not.

[Cheryl J]

I am wondering how you, Stapler, would feel if she asked if she could go with another man. Just for an evening maybe!!

Yvonne

[Fitzkim]

You've got something very good going on there, don't screw it up! Don't do it!

[Stapler]

OK, to fill in some blanks that I have not written about since it is hard to get all the info down in a single post.

We were married, then divorced, now back together.

We are not legally married but "legally" means squat to me. I believe in God and I say to God that I want to spend my life with her and we will.

My loyalty to her is paramount. My loyallty to anyone is paramount.

My word is my word.

But to say something 16 years ago or 5 years ago does not mean we are not allowed to grow into a different person with time or even instantly.

I am allowed to accept myself more and more with time.

I am allowed.

I am also allowed to ask you all intelligent folk for advice, which you have been great to give me.

How would I like her to sleep with another man? I would not like it. How would I like her to sleep with another woman? I'd be OK with that.

I have explained to her that the reality is that 'being taken' involved the male genitilia (sp) and she does not want to strap anything on as she does not want to fantasize or even feel like being a man. I accept that.

When I look at men on a day to day basis I am not turned on and I can't think of any blokes I'd sleep with. But the idea just keeps popping up.

Just like cross dressing did originally.

She did know I was a bit of a loose cannon to begin with so why blame "sixteen years" for the reason to not continue to experience things.

I do really value you input even if is contrary to my ideas. Thankyou.

[Jodie_Lynn]

It seems that you will do as you will, and are just looking for confirmation that its "ok".
I wish I could be more encouraging for you, but I cannot. Not that an unseen internet surfer should mean a whole lot one way or the other. LOL

Good luck with your choice, and your relationship.

[insearchofme]

Whenever you add a third person into a relationship you are asking for BIG trouble! You may well have sex with another with your wife's blessing but 99.9% of the time either one or both of you will regret it.

[donnasweetheart]

All you want is for us to tell you it's ok, then it'll make you feel better. When all this blows up in your face you'll have us to blame. Placing the blame on someone or something else other than yourself is much easier for you to handle. So you already know it's wrong so why did you even ask?

You read all these threads where men are wanting and begging for an understanding and accepting wife, you are one of the lucky ones, you have one. But yet you are willing to throw it all away for a fantasy. If I was you I would be very careful, another CD may just snatch her away from the uncaring and unloving person you are.

[Jodie_Lynn]

How would I like her to sleep with another man? I would not like it. How would I like her to sleep with another woman? I'd be OK with that.




But the fly in the ointment here is that SHE isn't interested in women. It isn't a balanced equation. My question is: why would you have a problem with her going to bed with another man?

You are basically saying that YOU would have no problem with her having a girl-girl fling, and you want her to say the same about you in a boy-boy situation.

Most of the women I know, do not seperate sex from emotions. To you, its an experience you want to have: "Gee, I want to be a female in a sexual situation", but you are just looking at it as a sex thing.
For her, she is looking at it from a woman's POV: She probably wouldn't have sex just for the hell of it with any swinging richard that came along, without SOME emotional investment. She cannot imagine YOU doing it without that same emotional bonding.

As I stated earlier, you will do what you will. But examine the effects it will have on her.

[battybattybats]

Sigh.

I guess some people don't know much about anthropology and feminism let alone moral and ethical reasoning.

Marriage isn't universal.
Many cultures have none, have same-sex marriage and/or multiple partner marriage.

Marriage is a cultural construct designed to ensure reproductive control and control of possessions and inheritances. Often, almost always in fact, it is sexist. In fact in general marriage is slavery. It limits freedoms, oprresses minorities and gives advantages and disadvantages inequally that harms society.

Marriage is therefore evil.

However the relationship that can be celebrated in a marriage can be wondrous. The commitment can be beautiful and noble. The ritual celebration and community recognition can be deeply valuable. For some marriage is a profoundly spiritual experience. Some marriages can still be good even though as a social institution marriage is arbitrary artificial immoral unethical discriminatory and destructive.

Cheating is cheating? Rubbish. As a religious institution that argument only applies to the pious of particular faiths. As a cultural institution it is immoral and unethical and as sexism racism and slavery were cultural institutions too cultural institions should not be given undue respect, culture can have value when it is optional as it can enrich life but never when it is compulsary as it becomes oppression and evil. As a promise it is binding certainly, but if the partner is ok with it then it is not, even if people change their minds over time or change them back too.

That doesn't make it wise though.
To be truly ethical a lot must be taken into consideration as has already been mentioned.

Remember everyone morals are defined by your culture, faith and personal values but can still be unethical, something can therfore be moral and yet very wrong. Slavery was moral in certain arguments based on scripture etc but it was always unethical. Morality is therefore an invalid approach to right and wrong, only ethics can be applied to right and wrong in a world with more than one culture or faith so morality only can apply to the self, beyond the self ethics defines right and wrong!

Consider the practicality. If the partner says she's ok but is reserved uncertain etc as seems to be the case hear then it is dangerous to the dynamic of the relationship to proceed at this point. The reasons why she may not be wholly supportive but willing to say OK need to be fully explored before proceeding. Whether strict lines between sex and love will exist or be maintained need to be considered, whether people will be known, whether encounters will be one time only or becoming sexual relationships in their own right, what rules restrictions etc will be used are all important especially what precautions for safety will be used as where a partner is at risk from being infected by std's via such encounters they have a right to know of the risks and there are ethical obligations to them because of this.

And let me also applaud, yes people applaud those who are honest enough to discuss these things with their partners. Why is this a noble deed? Because over 30% of men and women cheat on their partners without telling them.

So unless this forum is a massive abberation filled with saints then 30%+ of the CD's here cheat and 30%+ of the GG;s here cheat. It is the noble and good person who is honest and open about it.

The fact is for nearly 1 in every 3 people monogamy is not an effective structure for relationships so society and the people within it need to develop more mature ways of dealing with that fact.

Stapler, my advise is don't go ahead yet. Explore the idea much further with your wife for a very long time till you are both much morre understanding of each others thoughts and feelings and prepared for the unexpected too. Work out the best ways to minimise harm bothe emotionally and physicly. Would she rather be present, would she like to join in, would she rather she picked them, would she rather it was a stranger or prostitute rather than someone you know who you could develop feelings for. What testing and safety precautions will take place? What activities within the possible would she rather remained exclusive to you both (like kissing for example) to maintain a higher order of intimacy to the primary relationship?

To be ethical you must get answers to all these questions and more. There are books that discuss the ethics of poly relationships swinging and the like which I suggest you and your wife read and discuss at length.

As for those who just rush off behind their psrtners backs but remain silent on this issue here or who might post hypocriticly on it shame on you. As for those who react in automatic judgement on others shame on you too as there are a lot more types of relationships in this world, in this and other cultures, that are as, or even more, ethical and valid as those recognised by this dysfunctional and discriminatory society that still opresses women and ostracises and won't accept crossdressing, same-sex marriage etc.

Nearly 1 in 3! Think about that. Nearly 1 in 3!

[Stephanie Scott]

In my view, marriage isn't a "contract." That cheapens the institution. Marriage is a vow taken before God which involves fidelity. A vow or covenant is something infinitely more meaningful than a contract. The vow is with God about your spouse, not a contract with your spouse. Marriage is a divine institution designed for us by our Creator. It is meant to glorify Him. Sex is, relatedly, a gift to us from God meant to be celebrated and enjoyed within the confines of marriage. It is supposed to be fun, creative, fulfilling, unitive, and procreative but need not be all of those at a given time. But it IS meant just for you and your wife. Even if she says ok (which I seriously doubt she meant), it doesn't change the moral wrongness of cheating into being something that is ok. I'm in favor of fantasizing and playing out fantasy and role-playing within the marital sexual relationship but against actually including someone else in the festivities. That is the boundary that can't be crossed and if it is, most marriages are doomed.

And that is my :2c:!

Good luck!

[~Seana~]

Batty i want to thank you for posting so eloquently and putting into words what I was trying desperately to say.

To those that throw the religeous angle, god is not universal. there are pagans, jews, wiccans, muslims and all manner of religeous beliefs. Marriage isnt unique to any one of em, so while you are entitled to your beliefs, others are as well. Marriage is what it is.

[TxKimberly]

I hear there ARE things called "open" marriages, but I have a lot of trouble with the concept. She is my wife, the best friend I've ever had, and the mother of my two children - I could not possibly look her in the eyes with out crying if I had cheated on her.
The only exception to this, is that my wife has given me standing permission to go for it if CATHERINE ZETA-JONES ever makes a pass at me!
http://entimg.msn.com/i/gal/LegendOfZorro/DF-04786_r2_v5_410.jpg

I'm still waiting for her to MAKE that pass! Still waiting . . . patiently waiting . . . Catherine? . . .just waiting . . .

[battybattybats]

In my view, marriage isn't a "contract." That cheapens the institution. Marriage is a vow taken before God which involves fidelity. A vow or covenant is something infinitely more meaningful than a contract. The vow is with God about your spouse, not a contract with your spouse.


I respect your religious views, but in a society with freedom of religion your particular religious views can only apply to you hence using them as the basis of a moral argument only works in self-judgement not the judgement of others (hence the difference between ethics and morals!).

I'll try to explain further why.

Theological arguments will vary from person to person even in the same congregation or preists in the same diocese.

A casual glance at marriage in the bible reveals God being fine with Polygamy. With inheriting a wife from a deceased brother and god punishing the brother for not producing children with the inherited wife that was once his brothers! The bible even includes god not just approving of but ordering the taking of virgin girls as slaves to be raped and bear children to the people who killed their entire families.

Now that isn't a criticism of the religion, just facts as to the many different views on marriage and sex in the bible. Based on gods word (assuming the old testamant is in fact gods word) these things are moral, from an ethical standpoint that recognises different interpretations of the bible and also that other people have other faiths in other books (The Mahabarata, the Gnostic gospels, the Koran, the Sutras... there is quite a list, some in fact older than the bible) these things are deplorable. Now some interpret the words of Jesus in the new testament as the basis of monogamous marriage. However not every denomination or theologian interprets those words that way. (for example some argue that Jesus in fact called for entirely chaste marriages with no reproduction at all!)

But in a world with freedom of religion religious arguments become invalid beyond a persons personal beliefs. Cause a taoist or athiest is not bound by the same presumptions upon which christian or islamic moral arguments are based.

Marriage was a secular instituition before even Jesus was born the moment multi-cultural societies (and there have been plenty) started recognising the marriages of other faiths or marriages between people of different faiths.

In a multi-religious, multi-cultural society institutions need to be secular to protect the religious freedoms of minorities. That doesn't mean your marriage is any less spiritual (notice where I mentioned the spiritual value of marriage for some) or valid in your faith, only that other peoples marriages are not to be judged on the same standards because they are built on other presumptions of truth. You wouldn't like your marriage judged by standards from another culture or religion so it's unethical to judge others by your own.

Oh, also some people might find interesteing the fact that in the ancient past the Jewish people believed God had a wife! The belief became unpopular and she was left out of later versions of the faith but the archaeological evidence remains! Maybe god isn't the best judge of marriage seeing as he seems to have left his own out of his book.


Batty i want to thank you for posting so eloquently and putting into words what I was trying desperately to say.


No worries Amanda :hugs:

[Sandra]

I would say she's probably said it's ok because she wants you to be happy and is worried that her saying no might cause problems, dunno maybe deep down she is ok with it, but if she's not and you go ahead then you could be opening up a reall big can of worms and a lot of heartache for you both.

[CaptLex]

The only exception to this, is that my wife has given me standing permission to go for it if CATHERINE ZETA-JONES ever makes a pass at me!
http://entimg.msn.com/i/gal/LegendOfZorro/DF-04786_r2_v5_410.jpg

I'm still waiting for her to MAKE that pass! Still waiting . . . patiently waiting . . . Catherine? . . .just waiting . . .
I'll help you out there, Kimberly, I'll take Antonio away from her. :daydreaming: It's such a hardship, but I'm just doing it for you. ;)

I have to say, I don't judge anyone's open marriage or polyamorous situation, but not everyone is really able to handle it without jealousy, even if they think they can. I know I couldn't deal with it. :p