Giving it a thought

[Marcie Sexton]

In the morning I will go to the hospital and lend my moral support to a dear friend of mine who is going through the final step of reassignment.

Good for her, just wish I'd had the nerve to step up to the plate like she did...

Now to the point of this post...While I was in the room with her this afternoon, she and I discussed the surgery and all that will be different tomorrow evening...The obvious, but she did make a point and while I may have seen a simular post like this, I was wondering if we had really considered this, or for the girls who are approaching that date or are post op have considered this...

Any way, she made the statement to me that if there was one thing that she would remain "bitter" because she could never really be a REAL woman, although I consider it a rather harsh word, would we, if we could and was taking that road to transition, take all that came with being a woman...

The times of the month, motherhood, and all that came with it...

Just a though as Angie enters a new dawn into womanhood...

Good luck and God Bless Angie

[gwendy]

It must have been a hell of a journey so far and no doubt the journey is not yet over but hopefully Angie will blossom as a woman.
I truly echo your thoughts
Good luck and God Bless Angie :love:

[ZenFrost]

because she could never really be a REAL woman


I'm going to disagree with that, even if it is what she really thinks. There's far more to being a woman than just a couple internal organs.



The times of the month, motherhood, and all that came with it...


I understand fully that I have a biased opinion on this, but 'times of the month' (and yes, I'm using a plural because it not just once a month for many women) are entirely overrated. I don't think everyone realizes just how unbelievably excruciating they can be.

And there's a lot more to motherhood than just being pregnant. If fact most of it is actually what comes after (only 9 months of pregnancy, but being a mother lasts a lifetime) and many, many women can not get pregnant for a number of reasons and it does not make them any less women, just as women who have undergone hysterectomies or survived breast cancer (and had breasts removed) are no less women.

[AmberTG]

I really have to agree with ZenFrost on this, there are enough born women who are sterile and will never be able to experience pregnancy and child birth, that does not make them less of a woman, except in the eyes of a certain type of man, the type that really discusts me. Anyway,(getting off my soapbox) a woman is not defined by her sex organs, or the lack of the presence or function of them, except in the most superficial way. If that were the case, a mastectomy or hystorectomy would render a woman no longer a woman.
Unfortunately, if Angie defines herself as "not a real woman", then she may never be happy no matter what she does. Of course, I could just be reading too much into the statement, I tend to do that sometimes.

[GypsyKaren]

Speaking as a post-op, I would have to say that your friend has some other serious issues that need to be addressed, and I can't imagine thinking such things on the eve of surgery. I also know that I have never felt more real in my life, actually for the first time. If her idea of being a woman is pregnancy and menstruation, that's sad. It's one thing to want such things, but to be so hung up on it to the point of bitterness is a problem.

What is a woman? Like Zen said, it's not about a few parts, it's the sum of the whole. Kat had a hysterectomy several years ago, is she no longer a "real" woman? Nonsense. Hopefully, your friend will wake up in the recovery room and smile like I did, it would be a shame for her to waste her new gift of life on bitterness.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Sejd]

Blessings to your girl-friend for her courage. I happen to think in similar lines, I don't think we ever can become REAL women. I think we can become one hundred percent Trans-women. Or even better, we can become one hundred percent who we really are. If that mean we are different than genetic women, so what. We still have to do what we feel we must do, and become whole and balanced humans. We still need to adjust our outer to our inner feelings even if it does not make us REAL women. I'd still go for it.
hugs
Sejd:hugs:

[GypsyKaren]

It's impossible to say what it feels like at the top of the mountain if you've never been there, I'm at the top and I'm as real as real can be.

Karen Starlene :star:

[AmberTG]

I have no way of knowing what it feels like to be female because I wasn't born that way, I can only make an educated guess. Then again, I have no way to know what it feels like to be a male either because you have to be confident in your maleness to know what that feels like, and I never was. I only know what it feels like to be me, everything that makes me socially male or female is learned behavior. I didn't learn proper male behavior and nobody taught me proper female behavior. The only thing I can be is me and present myself as I wish to be seen.

[Valeria]

Any way, she made the statement to me that if there was one thing that she would remain "bitter" because she could never really be a REAL woman, although I consider it a rather harsh word, would we, if we could and was taking that road to transition, take all that came with being a woman...
I can't help her with her bitterness. She'll have to deal with that on her own, though perhaps a good therapist could help her.

As for me, I am a real woman. I've spent years living as a woman. I'm phenotypically female. I'm legally female. I'm sexually female. I'm socially female (in fact, none of my classmates or coworkers know of my past). I know from conversations with my friends about things that upset me or traumatized me or interested me as a child that I had a suprisingly normal childhood for a girl. I certainly have a normal life as a woman now.

I'm not sure that even all that is required for womanhood.

She can be a fake woman if that's what she feels she is, but that doesn't diminish the realness of my womanhood one iota.


The times of the month, motherhood, and all that came with it...
First off, I *AM* a mother. I have an infant girl, born last summer, and she has two lesbian moms. I didn't actually give birth, but neither do many other lesbian moms and adoptive moms, and I don't see anyone challenging their motherhood.

I was able to breastfeed my child a little (I took drugs for 7 months to prepare my breasts and induce lactation). Not all females (cis or otherwise) can claim that. That doesn't make me more female than them, however.

Secondly, none of this biological stuff defines being a woman (or even being female). Some females are sterile. Some females never have periods (it's called primary amenorrhea). Some females are born without functional ovaries, or with other sexual organ abnormalities. Some females have XY chromosomes (and some males have XX chormosomes) - so much for being "genetically female". Some females never have children for other reasons. All of these people are female (and women, unless they identify otherwise). Just as female as I am.

Honestly, I find this whole sentiment incredibly offensive. It reduces women to being nothing more than vessels for producing children, and it's terribly misogynistic in many ways.

I'm also saddened that someone on the eve of reassignment surgery has such low self-esteem and so much internalized transphobia that she's having these thoughts. I mean, I also wished I was able to give birth to a child. Many sterile women share this wish. But you have to have awfully low self-esteem to question your womanhood over being sterile.

I wish her luck with the rest of her life.

[melissaK]

Well, I take Marcie's friends point as being that all unfulfilled dreams have some 'lament' to them . . . and against the dream of having been born a woman, a later in life SRS can seem, in part, like a consolation prize - replete with the bitersweetness of all runner's up trophies.

Of course we don't measure being a 'real' women by any one factor; and being born a female comes with a lot of unguaranteed variables to aspire to - beauty, brains, motherhood, etc. And few women win in every category, and some win in none. But being born a male means we weren't in their game at all. No amount of SRS can turn back time to allow all that. So, there's always some 'lament.'

Is it reasonable to voice such thoughts? Seems to me Marcie's friend has a good grip on what's going on. She's proceeding with an SRS and obviously knows what it will or won't do for her. Perhaps voicing the limitations is her way of keeping her expectations low - a defense to dissapointment. Maybe she was saying it because she was getting something Marcie wasn't and didn't want Marcie to feel bad.

As for Marcie's Q, would we sign on to have SRS if it made us as if we were actually born women? For me, that would make SRS more attractive, not less. And, I assume anyone with the fortitutde to undergo SRS and all which it entails, (talk about your long term plans and stalwart commitments), I can't imagine that they'd view that as an added burden at all.

hugs,
'lissa

[Sharon]

Honestly, I find this whole sentiment incredibly offensive. It reduces women to being nothing more than vessels for producing children, and it's terribly misogynistic in many ways.

I'm also saddened that someone on the eve of reassignment surgery has such low self-esteem and so much internalized transphobia that she's having these thoughts. I mean, I also wished I was able to give birth to a child. Many sterile women share this wish. But you have to have awfully low self-esteem to question your womanhood over being sterile.

I wish her luck with the rest of her life.


I couldn't agree more.


Any way, she made the statement to me that if there was one thing that she would remain "bitter" because she could never really be a REAL woman, although I consider it a rather harsh word, would we, if we could and was taking that road to transition, take all that came with being a woman...

With this feeling and attitude, I wonder why your friend is proceeding with the operation. Is it better to be bitter as a woman, rather than as a genetic male? It just seems that happiness and tranguility will not be resulting if she mourns what is not to be, rather than embracing what she can be -- the woman I assume she is.

[GypsyKaren]

What I'm getting tired of is all this talk about being "real" after SRS, because if you haven't had it you don't have a clue. If any of you think that YOU can never be real, then fine, but don't speak for me. I'd hasten to guess that I know more post-ops than anyone in the "not real" crowd, in fact I know quite a few, and not a single one of them, or myself, feels that way.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go talk to Kat, she had a hysterectomy so I guess I'd better break the news to her that she's no longer a real woman...what rubbish.

Karen Starlene :star:

[deja true]

This is so sad, if what we are reading into this statement about being a "real woman" is what the girl actually thinks.

I'm sincerely hoping that what we have here is a failure to communictate...

...or a fleeting case of last minute jitters,like the last minute doubts before the walk down the aisle.

Oh, goddess! Let that be the case and let your apparently confused friend awake with a new mindset as well as a new body!