Lesbian fantasies

[DemonicDaughter]

You know, with all this "sexuality" talk on these forums, I feel the need to address something here. I find it rather amazing how some CDers express profoundly their "heterosexuality" yet make statements like "I'd like to find a GG and live like lesbians!" Ummm... hold up a second! Let me get this straight (no pun intended), you will OVERLY profess your heterosexuality but instantly presume a GG will live like a lesbian lover with you?!

You people do realize that WOMEN can be straight too, right? That not all... hell, not even MOST women are gay or bi.

Don't you think its being quite the hypocrite to state that you are "oh-so hetero" and "wouldn't dream of engaging in any homosexual" act but then want to sleep with a woman as a woman?

I'm bisexual and am attracted to both feminine and masculine. But I fully understand most people don't feel the same way.

I find it ridiculous that anyone would presume another person to engage in a homosexual act when they are not of that sexuality! Just because you find something feminine attractive doesn't mean your partner should unless this is something they came into the relationship knowing about and agreeing upon.

How would you feel if your SO dressed in an unappealing manner then expected you to have sex with them? And this is not to say that straight women cannot find feminine attractive, just that the PRESUMPTION of a straight individual being okay with a homosexual act just because the "genders are opposite"? Puh-lease!

[celeste26]

Well it seems DD, that you've stated the obvious. Possibly the source for so much of the rejection CD's get when they 'fess up'.

Since we CD's are generally in denial in the first place over our sexuality can we be so profoundly surprised when others get up in arms over our escapades?

[StephanieH]

It's cliche, but I'll dare say it again, I'm straight, happily married, but I feel like I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Does that make my wife a lesbian? I don't think so, because I don't have the equipment that would make her one. It's a fantasy thing. We very seldom make love when I'm garbed, but when we do, it certainly seems wonderful and she seems a bit more stirred up, perhaps because it's a bit "taboo" or something.

Whatever the case, we're happy, and if you're happy in your relationship and at peace with yourself, that's what really matters.

Take care! :D

[docrobbysherry]

because I certainly have no rite to speak for other "straight" CDs. I would like to try and have sex dressed, with an SO GG. If it was good for both of us, do it again.

The "live like lesbians" reference mite apply to a life style. Puting each other's makeup on, doing each other's hair. Dressing up, shopping, reading and watching shows about fem techniques, etc., together. This fantasy mite be just as objectionable to a straight GG as having sex with a male CD.

But, these r just CD fantasies anyway. Very few of us will find ANY type of GG to try either of them with!

[MarciManseau]

If I get to be a lesbian, then do I have to wear comfortable shoes? :D

[Tree GG]

...The "live like lesbians" reference mite apply to a life style. Puting each other's makeup on, doing each other's hair. Dressing up, shopping, reading and watching shows about fem techniques, etc., together. This fantasy mite be just as objectionable to a straight GG as having sex with a male CD....

Please don't take offense as I am not trying to attack you personally, but the idea of labelling that kind of relationship/lifestyle you describe as lesbian will offend quite a few lesbians. I must ask my sister if she & her partner spend much time doing each other's makeup, shopping for clothes, making each other beautiful.

No, never mind. I already have and they will both accuse you of buying into 'the man's' high-maintenance stereotype of women; walk out of the room laughing and maybe even muss your hair for fun.

I don't think there is a label for the lifestyle/relationship you describe.... I grew up with 2 sisters and we never did any of that. I did help my brother fix his hair for prom one year........ :heehee:

:lol:

[Alison Anderson]

DD, don`t you know that from a male hetro point of view, Male gayness is bad but ALL beautifull girls would just LOVE to kiss another girl! It just makes the world such a beautifull place!:D

[celeste26]

Might I ask WHY so many of the GG's have this revulsion to CD?

Seems likely at least, they perceive the possible relationship as lesbian in their own minds. Even when they know it is their own husband who is dressed up in his feminine finery the perception remains.

When I engage in sexual relations with my wife we are in a state of UNdress and clothes have little to do with it (or maybe only as far as they are taken off). For me the CD thing is something completely separate from what my wife and I do.

[DonnaT]

Don't you think its being quite the hypocrite to state that you are "oh-so hetero" and "wouldn't dream of engaging in any homosexual" act but then want to sleep with a woman as a woman?

Isn't that the whole idea of "fantasy?"

[Lucy Bright]

Well said, DD. The fact that women have sexual desires and preferences too does sometimes get lost here; but I'm even more puzzled by the frequency with which posters feel the need to say that they are not GAY (it's often in capitals, too - what's with that?). In some discussions it's relevant, of course, but the defensive tone is a bit bizarre in a community like this.

Anyway... 'straight', 'gay' and 'lesbian' are rather ambiguous terms when it comes to transgendered people. I tend to think of myself as gynophiliac (i.e. attracted to women) instead. That and 'androphiliac' are very useful words - or would be, if you could count on people knowing what they meant!

Kisses,

Lucy

[kim85]

Might I ask WHY so many of the GG's have this revulsion to CD?

I cant speak for every GG but for me im not attracted to women, yes i can say that women are pretty etc but i wouldnt want to be with one. Thats why in my opinion GG's might not feel comfortable with a partner who cds


Seems likely at least, they perceive the possible relationship as lesbian in their own minds. Even when they know it is their own husband who is dressed up in his feminine finery the perception remains.
When I engage in sexual relations with my wife we are in a state of UNdress and clothes have little to do with it (or maybe only as far as they are taken off). For me the CD thing is something completely separate from what my wife and I do.

But on the other hand what if you dont feel attracted to your partner... thats half of the issue for some GG's. It not so much what you wear but how you look. To me there has to be a pysically attraction for sexual realtions. If you dont find your SO attractive when they are dressed how can we be expected to have sexual relations.

Have you ever tried to have sexual relations with someone who you weren't attracted to, i have and its not as good and half the time you cant be bothered.

[Stargirl]

I never considered myself a Lesbian, but I had attractions, and crushes on women and girls growing up. Femme and butch girls. Couldn't talk about it back then. I like males, too. Usually the smart sensitive types. So, I have to ask...as a GG, if I meet a MTF cd and find myself very attracted to his feminine persona and especially if he's in drag. Does that make me a Lesbian ? And there's always the possibility that my male side/persona likes her, too. However, my male component wouldn't be attracted to his male side sexually. My female side might be very much so. And I am sure there would be tensions. It would be like living inside a diamond ring. Hard, but beautiful. I wouldn't mind being described as a lesbian during my attachments, sexually, or emotionally. That makes me Bi Sexual. Conditional Lesbian ? Heteroflexible ? (depending on the person I am with)
Generally speaking, I am not attracted to GG's as potential sex partners. It all comes down to magnetism, chemistry, and compatibility.

[DonnaT]

That's the problem with labels, they are so limiting.

A GG being attracted to CD doesn't fit under the label of lesbianism, nor does it fit squarely under the label of heterosexism.

Should we coin a new term or should we say to hell with labels?

[Alayna]

Here's a scenario:

Your wife lets all of her body hair grow out and glues on a fake goatee. Then she steps into a blank and flattens her chest. To complete things (and this REALLY turns her on) she puts on your tidy whities and a tank top and starts talking about how she wants you so bad (in a gruff voice nonetheless). Now on top of that, she wants you to dress the same way, no femininity involved.

Here's the kicker: She wants this all the time! How many of you would be up for it? Don't you think it would strain your marriage just a bit??? What if this didn't come out until after 10 years of marriage, and you find out that your feminine, pretty wife only wants to have sex while dressed as a man? What do you say to her? "I'm not gay"???

DD is absolutely right. Far too many CD's hold this selfish double standard. It's ironic how misogynistic cultural values permeate into crossdressing, no?

[Stargirl]

That's the problem with labels, they are so limiting.

A GG being attracted to CD doesn't fit under the label of lesbianism, nor does it fit squarely under the label of heterosexism.

Should we coin a new term or should we say to hell with labels?

I would hate to lock into an iron clad definition. Things in life are always changing. People change, and outgrow one another. What seemed so endearing at one time can become a full time irritant.

[Julie York]

I'm surprised at you DD.:eek:


Being heterosexual means you find women sexually attractive. And being Cd means you enjoy assuming the persona, or at least dress, of a female.

So what's so outragious about the fantasy of wanting to incorporate the two? It's so logical. It makes total sense.


Being adamantly heterosexual and wanting sex with MEN when you are dressed...now THAT'S a contradiction.

Being disappointed that your wife/SO can't or doesn't want to fullfill your fantasy, well that's just common sense. Of course she doesn't, because she's straight. But it doesn't mean it isn't still a fantasy. There is no contradiction or duplicity in having a fantasy based on being CD and finding women sexually attractive.

[Sheila]

Might I ask WHY so many of the GG's have this revulsion to CD?

Seems likely at least, they perceive the possible relationship as lesbian in their own minds. Even when they know it is their own husband who is dressed up in his feminine finery the perception remains.

I do not have a revulsion to cds or cding ........... I just do not want to have sex with another female, either in real life, or in some cds fantasy ...... why is that so terrible, what is wrong in holding my hands up and saying " I want pure male in the bedroom" .

It seems the more we accept the more you (the cdr in general) want .... but only on your terms :Angry3:

[angelfire]

I think Lesbians (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_eu/greece_lesbian_pride) are already offended either way.

Personally, I am still unsure of my sexuality. Bi-curious maybe? Hetero-flexible? Still not sure, guess there is no way to tell for sure unless I try.

As for other people, I speak for myself in saying I just want to live & let live. If you are gay, more power to you. If you're straight, thats good for you. Whats right for one person isn't right for everyone.

[Emily Anderson]

Deep, deep shame on us :o

Hangs head and walks away with tail between the legs.

[Alicia_lynn419]

Hey DD,

Another great point (one I think we've discussed privately). I can see your argument quite clearly... as well as those who take the other side. It really comes down to labels, and how damaging they are. As I've said before, we as CDs do have a certain innate responsibility. We do ask for a lot in our relationships, we want out cake and eat it too... I have often posed the question "What if your wife/GF came to bed dressed as a guy, stopped shaving, etc.." That's a point well-taken.

The way I see it is this: We CDs project a "force-fed" fantasy of what being feminine is about. We tend to assume that the ladies in our lives think/feel as we think they think and feel.... but we as men can never truly know. We can seek to be empathetic and understanding, but thats the best we can hope to achieve.

Secondly, very often when we, the CD try to communicate, we tend (at least some of the time), to be very one sided. It's so easy to make it about US, US, US... and we quite often forget that the ones we're trying to communicate with also have feelings and thoughts and we don't always hear or pick up on them. Communication is a 2-way street. BOTH people need to talk AND listen..... Communication may not solve the problem, but hopefully it will give both parties a better understanding of the other.

Just my 2 cents.. for what it's worth.... now back to the can of worms...

[sterling12]

Careful Alayna, I think that is the exact fantasy that a lot of CDs have!

Most folks have problems with admitting to fantasies that might brand them as homosexual or bi. Being bi-sexual or whatever in your mind, IMHO that's the same as actually performing the act. And so, they will make contradictory statements that go, "I'm not gay but I would really like to have sex with a _____!"

I reckon that most everybody is a little crazy. I also reckon that a lot of people hide some very deep, dark, secrets. If we had the ability to read minds, wouldn't it be a scary thing!

Peace and Love, Joanie


Here's a scenario:

Your wife lets all of her body hair grow out and glues on a fake goatee. Then she steps into a strap-on and flattens her chest. To complete things (and this REALLY turns her on) she puts on your tidy whities and a tank top and starts talking about how she wants you so bad (in a gruff voice nonetheless). Now on top of that, she wants you to dress the same way, no femininity involved.

Here's the kicker: She wants this all the time! How many of you would be up for it? Don't you think it would strain your marriage just a bit??? What if this didn't come out until after 10 years of marriage, and you find out that your feminine, pretty wife only wants to have sex while dressed as a man? What do you say to her? "I'm not gay"???

DD is absolutely right. Far too many CD's hold this selfish double standard. It's ironic how misogynistic cultural values permeate into crossdressing, no?

[Nicole Erin]

Deep, deep shame on us :o

Hangs head and walks away with tail between the legs.

HAHHAHA Oh gyod, do we have a smart alec here? Oh wait yeah several.


Anyways, without saying what I really think, let us observe a fact -

What goes on between consenting adults, behind closed doors, is their own business.

[DemonicDaughter]

All very good comments! I brought up this post specifically to point out that asking a woman who is not attracted to females to find a CDer attractive while dressed is going to have some problems.

Any of my previous posts will tell you I love Kayla dressed as a female BUT I'm bisexual and would find this appealing by nature.

The point of all this, is the simple fact that were the roles reversed and your SO wanted to present themselves as male, would you be so keen on having sex with them? If not, could it be because you are not attracted to the masculine? See my point?

Celeste, its not revulsion to crossdressing. Its them not being attracted to the feminine. Most straight women don't "perceive the possible relationship" at all. That's the point. They are straight and not attracted to females even if its just a presentation of one. Are there exceptions to this? Of course but the point is we are talking about the majority and that majority doesn't.

DonnaT, yes, were it simply stated as just a fantasy. But reading some of these posts makes a lot of CDers sound as if they couldn't POSSIBLY understand WHY a woman wouldn't want to sleep with them while dressed as a female. I'm merely addressing this matter in general. And I say to hell with labels but to hell with stereotyping as well! To say its perfectly "natural" or "all right" for a GG to be attracted to a CDer in female attire but not visa versa is stereotyping.

Lucy Bright, thank you. I'm posting this because it does often seem that some CDers lose sight of a GG having specific sexual attraction and desires. Its a shame and it drives wedges in relationships.

Star Girl, hunnie, you are like me where gender is irrelevant to our love of the individual. I am speaking out for those GGs who feel they are not attracted to the feminine and hopefully giving them a thread to state their peace. :)

Alayna, RIGHT ON THE NOSEY! If a man is not attracted to masculinity then how can he expect a woman to be attracted to femininity? You made a perfect point. :)

Julie York, are you really surprised? Hunnie, a fantasy is a wonderful thing and there is nothing wrong with it as long as its not imposed on another individual. I'm referencing those CDers who can't seem to grasp the concept as to why a straight GG would not want to have sex with them in female mode. Tis all. I am not shocked by the fantasy at all and completely understand why it would occur. What does surprise me is when a CDer expresses shock that a straight woman who doesn't find femininity attractive would not want to have sex with the CDer in fem mode.

All...

It comes down to understanding that how you feel might be quite similar to how another feels. If you aren't attracted to masculinity in any way, is it so difficult for you to understand how another could not be attracted to femininity?

[Becca]

Over the years, my wife has been very accepting of my crossdressing, including frequent sex while I'm dressed. It's interesting that for all of those years I had a mustache and was not making any effort to "pass" or step outside the house.

A couple of years ago the mustache went away, and I started to experiment with wigs and makeup. As I did so, my wife became increasingly uncomfortable. Not too long ago she remarked that she was tolerant, but that women didn't turn her on. It seems that the further I went towards my desire to appear feminine in public, and the less obvious my masculinity, the less interested she was in sex.

It was different when I was obviously a man in lingerie or a skirt; as my skill improved, my relationship became more complicated.

[DemonicDaughter]

Angelfire, this discussion isn't really about being gay, straight, bi or hetero-anything. Its about respecting and understanding another's feelings and realizing that what one finds attractive another may not.

Emily Anderson, there is nothing to be ashamed of. In truth, I would love to help any CDer find a loving, supportive, accepting SO. I hope to not make any CDer feel ashamed but rather make them more understanding of how it sounds to GGs when its presumed you are perfectly okay and attracted to femininity.

Alicia Lynn419, yes, we've touched on this topic in private. I honestly want to help in the matter of allowing both GGs and CDers understand each other better. I have had discussions with GGs stating how they simply aren't attracted to femininity and how it affects their relationship. And reading the posts on here often lead to the same idea as some CDers can't seem to fathom why a GG ISN'T interested in sex while the CDer is presenting as female.

[DemonicDaughter]

Over the years, my wife has been very accepting of my crossdressing, including frequent sex while I'm dressed. It's interesting that for all of those years I had a mustache and was not making any effort to "pass" or step outside the house.

A couple of years ago the mustache went away, and I started to experiment with wigs and makeup. As I did so, my wife became increasingly uncomfortable. Not too long ago she remarked that she was tolerant, but that women didn't turn her on. It seems that the further I went towards my desire to appear feminine in public, and the less obvious my masculinity, the less interested she was in sex.

It was different when I was obviously a man in lingerie or a skirt; as my skill improved, my relationship became more complicated.

This is the point of my post exactly. Though I find femininity attractive just as much as masculine, it isn't that way with everyone and if I, someone who has never even for a moment in my life considered myself straight, could understand this concept, how can so many miss the point?

All I'm trying to do, is open minds, on both sides. For GGs and for CDers.

[Julie York]

I find it rather amazing how some CDers express profoundly their "heterosexuality" yet make statements like "I'd like to find a GG and live like lesbians!"

of a straight individual being okay with a homosexual act just because the "genders are opposite"? Puh-lease!


I think that's where you've made the mistake in your post. There is nothing amazing about heterosexual CDs making statements like "I'd like to find a GG and live like lesbians".

It's a common fantasy. (Not for me because, obviously, I'd like to dress as Nixon and be spanked by a rubber clad nurse, but that aside...)

You are expressing an annoyance that is not clearly expressed.

Your annoyance about, whatever it is, is not what you wrote about.

Your annoyance appears to be about one post I haven't read by one person who is disappointed that his SO doesn't have lesbian tendencies.

[Pandora]

DD I see where you're coming from and you make a good point. Just please be aware that many of us straight CDers don't think like that. I'll throw this out that we are so closeted about our CDing because we think mainly about what GGs will think about it and how it will turn them off. If it suddenly became true that a majority of GGs were into CDers than you would see sales of dresses and makeup shoot up overnight. I don't think you're correct in stating we "instantly presume" a GG would want to live a lesbian lifestyle with us. We know in most cases that's not true and I really think that's where a majority of problems with our CD identity comes from.

Just a guess here, but in cases where people get married and then the CDer comes out years later it could be simply a matter of thinking that the woman they love is more important than wearing some panties or whatever and not wanting to lose them. Thus making the choice of marraige over CDing. Of course the CD urge never does go away and causes problems later. Never having been married that was always one of my concerns about the future of possible marriages I could have had. And plenty of GGs have told me straight out (not regarding me since I didn't tell them, but in general) that the one thing they could never deal with is a guy who dressed like a girl. Trust me, we know the reality.

And out of respect for lesbians, I have to acknowledge that we may say things like the Eddie Izzard line "I'm a Lesbian born in a man's body" once in a while, but I think it's a quick way to say we're attracted to women and CD. Are we really lesbians? No, of course not. And we don't really know how they feel.

[AmberTG]

Well DD, I'm sure you already know this but, many men find the idea of sex with another man revolting but they find sex between 2 women a big turn-on. So to fantasize being one of those two women is not all that far off from that.
For many of the men that I know, women are basicly objects of sexual desire first and human beings second, and since their primary motivation in life is sexual in nature, it might be hard for them to understand that many women are NOT attracted to other women. Hell, most men haven't a clue about how and what women think, and a lot of them don't much care either, as long as they get what they want.

There's nothing wrong with having a fantasy, I have lots of them, but just expecting someone else to partake in that fantasy without even caring if the other person is interested and willing, there's where the trouble starts.

[Fab Karen]

It's a lazy, selfish, ignorant mentality that some guys have, and some percentage of CD's are in this category- the same CD's who though wearing a dress or skirt will sit legs spread wide "macho-style", who don't wash their hands when using the restroom...:eek:

[Julie York]

It's a lazy, selfish, ignorant mentality that some guys have, and some percentage of CD's are in this category- the same CD's who though wearing a dress or skirt will sit legs spread wide "macho-style", who don't wash their hands when using the restroom...:eek:


Which bit of the "on topic" bit is that then?


:eek:

[Emily Anderson]

DD

I understood. I was just trying to be funny. I'm not THAT serious!

[DemonicDaughter]

I think that's where you've made the mistake in your post. There is nothing amazing about heterosexual CDs making statements like "I'd like to find a GG and live like lesbians".

It's a common fantasy. (Not for me because, obviously, I'd like to dress as Nixon and be spanked by a rubber clad nurse, but that aside...)

You are expressing an annoyance that is not clearly expressed.

Your annoyance about, whatever it is, is not what you wrote about.

Your annoyance appears to be about one post I haven't read by one person who is disappointed that his SO doesn't have lesbian tendencies.

Actually, I'm not referring to specific posts at all though I have read a few of them making general statements like this. I'm referring to discussions I've had with CDers and GGs. See, the problem is, some CDers make some GGs feel that their sexual attractions are of little importance and it makes CDing seem even more of a sexual nature than it really is for the most part. I started this in hopes making some much needed clarifications on both parts. Some GGs see CDing as this huge purely sexual fantasy that implicates them as a mere "pawn" if you will. And some CDers seem to help promote that stereotype. I'd like to see it gone. I'd like to see you all taken for the individual you are. But it doesn't help when one groups sexual orientation is constantly mentioned when there is no need and the other groups sexual orientation isn't even considered.


DD I see where you're coming from and you make a good point. Just please be aware that many of us straight CDers don't think like that...

I know you gurls don't. I know that the precentage this is in reference to is rather small. But that is the point of this as well. I know many of you are truly struggling with these issues and to see them blown to bits because of the impression imposed on some GGs is truly unfair. I merely wish to address that its quite the double standard to expect someone to be attracted to something just because you are.


Well DD, I'm sure you already know this but, many men find the idea of sex with another man revolting but they find sex between 2 women a big turn-on. So to fantasize being one of those two women is not all that far off from that.
For many of the men that I know, women are basicly objects of sexual desire first and human beings second, and since their primary motivation in life is sexual in nature, it might be hard for them to understand that many women are NOT attracted to other women. Hell, most men haven't a clue about how and what women think, and a lot of them don't much care either, as long as they get what they want.

There's nothing wrong with having a fantasy, I have lots of them, but just expecting someone else to partake in that fantasy without even caring if the other person is interested and willing, there's where the trouble starts.

The fantasy is fine, but to refer to another human being like a mere object in that fantasy isn't. Everyone talks about CDing becoming publicly acceptable and I agree it should be. But that is going to be difficult when some individuals mention the other female in their relationship like she has no input or when GGs talk about having to force themselves to fain attraction to their partners when they are in fem mode.

[Sophia KT]

Don't you think its being quite the hypocrite to state that you are "oh-so hetero" and "wouldn't dream of engaging in any homosexual" act but then want to sleep with a woman as a woman?

I think the 'wouldn't dream...' part is important; the implication being, that it wrong and that the woman would think it was wrong too. But getting dressed up and mincing about is fine?

I'm bisexual and am attracted to both feminine and masculine. But I fully understand most people don't feel the same way.

Me too.

Sophia

[bridget thronton]

I like Helen Boyd's answer - that she is a Betty sexual. I love my wife (who happens to be a female). Good, bad, or indifferent she it the object of my sexual desires regardless of what she wears (thank goodness she seems to feel the same way about me).

[docrobbysherry]

Some GGs see CDing as this huge purely sexual fantasy that implicates them as a mere "pawn" if you will. And some CDers seem to help promote that stereotype. I'd like to see it gone. I'd like to see you all taken for the individual you are.

The fantasy is fine, but to refer to another human being like a mere object in that fantasy isn't.

I believe u r making 2 mistakes;
1. Confusing fantasies with realty. In my lesbian fantasies, I'm 26 y/o and have no male parts!
2. Most of the CDs here r males. Males r generally considered to be pigs. What do they say about puting lipstick on a pig? Still a pig, isn't it?


I think that's where you've made the mistake in your post. There is nothing amazing about heterosexual CDs making statements like "I'd like to find a GG and live like lesbians".

I'd like to dress as Nixon and be spanked by a rubber clad nurse, but that aside...)


That's rediculous Julie! How that can that be an exciting fantasy? Now, if the rubber nurse is wearing a Henry Kissinger mask, that's another matter entirely!

[DemonicDaughter]

I believe u r making 2 mistakes;
1. Confusing fantasies with realty. In my lesbian fantasies, I'm 26 y/o and have no male parts!
2. Most of the CDs here r males. Males r generally considered to be pigs. What do they say about puting lipstick on a pig? Still a pig, isn't it?

Well in my lesbian fantasy... hey! Wait a minute! I'm not posting that on here! LOL! Its not the fantasy that bothers me, its the inability for some people to understand another's point of view. Its statements that imply all women are somehow "OK" with being with someone feminine, where that obviously isn't the case. Its about how hot Julie York would look in a rubber suit. Its about me playing the nurse because I'd look damn cute in the outfit. Its about respecting another's personal boundaries and presenting that to the general public if its what you really feel is truthful about you. Its about a lot of its abouts.

[Rachaelb64]

I'm, on the whole, minus the a few 'sexual kinks', a straight male.

That is to say I prefer woman, and I have never considered having sex with another male (but I have kissed one, but it was a dare and I did win a £10 bet and it was like kissing sandpaper!)

When me and my SO have make love, play sexual games or what ever, its a male to female, I'm the male she is the female even if I'm dressed I'm still male and still consider myself male. If she dom I'm sub or vice aversa, I still see myself as male.

Male lesbain fantasties are not grounded in the real world. They are a 'prefect' fantasty trying to be imposed on a imprefect reality.

Some on this forum say they like being treated as a woman, me personally, I want to be treated as an equal and an Indivivdual who wishs to wear female garments, and not to mock or degraded when i do.

At the end of the day I'm still a bloke in a skirt and always will be :2c:

End of rant. No offence meant and thank you.

[Rachaelb64]

Sub note to my rant;

In my family there is a long line of strong woman, British working class stock. Therefore I was brought up proper, respect woman and never hit one. People always underestimate the working class woman.

I have as a result always treat all my female partners as equals (even my @#&$* of an ex-wife).

Treat others as you wish to be treated is my motto.

:)

[docrobbysherry]

Well in my lesbian fantasy... hey! Wait a minute! I'm not posting that on here! LOL! Its not the fantasy that bothers me, its the inability for some people to understand another's point of view. Its statements that imply all women are somehow "OK" with being with someone feminine, where that obviously isn't the case. Its about how hot Julie York would look in a rubber suit. Its about me playing the nurse because I'd look damn cute in the outfit. Its about respecting another's personal boundaries and presenting that to the general public if its what you really feel is truthful about you. Its about a lot of its abouts.

I get your point about, the "abouts". And U can play the rubber nurse. And even leave off the Henry Kissinger mask, too!

[harmony]

i must be in the minority here but sex while dressed has never turned me on.naked it is how i like to become one with my partner and pray at the altar of feminity.

[LilSissyStevie]

I do have a lesbian relationship with my wife but her relationship with me is strictly heterosexual.

Like someone once said, 'I think what most people may never understand is that it takes a stronger person to truly be themselves than to simply conform to a society's perception of their "roles"'.

[Satrana]

The point of all this, is the simple fact that were the roles reversed and your SO wanted to present themselves as male, would you be so keen on having sex with them?
I have never had any homosexual feelings whatsoever but when my wife and I reverse role play, I find her sexy as a male. To me this is all about how you view sexuality and how liberated you are. Those who believe in the natural order of things will inhibit themselves.


What does surprise me is when a CDer expresses shock that a straight woman who doesn't find femininity attractive would not want to have sex with the CDer in fem mode.

I think the actual numbers of members here who don't know this you could count on one hand. There is a lot of fantasy talk and wishful thinking on this forum, don't be fooled into believing this is what CDs actually think.


Some GGs see CDing as this huge purely sexual fantasy that implicates them as a mere "pawn" if you will. Then to me this is all about GG's perception of CDing and believing their fears are being validated when they read the constant stream of fantasy talk from CDers.

I have one more point to add. Surveys of young girls show a surprising number want to experiment with lesbian love. Many surveys indicate numbers over 50%. I don't think this means anything more than wishful thinking that lesbian love is better and more fulfilling. After a few years these same girls if surveyed again will be 90% straight heterosexual.

The desire to explore new ideas, to talk about fantasies should never be considered to be anything more than that. I think GGs are reading more into this than is actually the case especially if they already fear this issue.

[DemonicDaughter]

I do have a lesbian relationship with my wife but her relationship with me is strictly heterosexual.

Like someone once said, 'I think what most people may never understand is that it takes a stronger person to truly be themselves than to simply conform to a society's perception of their "roles"'.

That is the best answer yet! LOL!


Then to me this is all about GG's perception of CDing and believing their fears are being validated when they read the constant stream of fantasy talk from CDers.

Bingo! Its been expressed in the pasted and several GGs on here feel that some posts only reinforce that belief. I merely wanted to bring this to the attention of the majority and see how they felt. I don't feel the few speak for the whole but we all know how human beings can get....

[Satrana]

The fear of GGs then, maybe is not so much centered around the physical appearance of their SO dressed up (although that hardly helps) but the psychology of their personal relationship.

So a GG can be anxious that while making love for example, she wants to know that her SO is viewing this as a heterosexual experience and that he loves her and desires her, as a heterosexual man. Instead she is thinking OMG! is he thinking to himself that he is a woman as he makes love to me? Is he thinking that when I respond to him it is because I see him as a woman? Does he think I am excited because of lesbian fantasies he thinks I have?

I can see how a GG may feel that their SO is on such a big escapism fantasy trip that he loses sight of the difference between fantasy and reality and thus loses sight that the relationship is a heterosexual one. She needs to know her SO sees the relationship the same way she does and values her for being the woman in the relationship.

[DemonicDaughter]

The fear of GGs then, maybe is not so much centered around the physical appearance of their SO dressed up (although that hardly helps) but the psychology of their personal relationship.

So a GG can be anxious that while making love for example, she wants to know that her SO is viewing this as a heterosexual experience and that he loves her and desires her, as a heterosexual man. Instead she is thinking OMG! is he thinking to himself that he is a woman as he makes love to me? Is he thinking that when I respond to him it is because I see him as a woman? Does he think I am excited because of lesbian fantasies he thinks I have?

I can see how a GG may feel that their SO is on such a big escapism fantasy trip that he loses sight of the difference between fantasy and reality and thus loses sight that the relationship is a heterosexual one. She needs to know her SO sees the relationship the same way she does and values her for being the woman in the relationship.

So wonderfully and perfectly put! Thank you!

Any other GGs want to extrapolate on this?

[Tree GG]

I like Helen Boyd's answer - that she is a Betty sexual. I love my wife (who happens to be a female). Good, bad, or indifferent she it the object of my sexual desires regardless of what she wears (thank goodness she seems to feel the same way about me).

BINGO! I'm a D-sexual. I can appreciate the beauty of another man (or woman), but I have no desire to touch that beauty. I like what I married, sans any clothing :D


i must be in the minority here but sex while dressed has never turned me on.naked it is how i like to become one with my partner and pray at the altar of feminity.

We have found that to be true as well....from both sides of the dynamic. Which makes perfect sense to me. How can someone wanting to present, be considered female be comfortable with male performance? Full femme increases his amorous feelings (I suspect from being more relaxed) but the actual deed is incongruent.


...I can see how a GG may feel that their SO is on such a big escapism fantasy trip that he loses sight of the difference between fantasy and reality and thus loses sight that the relationship is a heterosexual one. She needs to know her SO sees the relationship the same way she does and values her for being the woman in the relationship.

True many, many times.

And for those that poo-poo this point, I would like to point out that in almost every relationship where CDing came out after the hetero relationship was established, intimacy suffers. Most times it is the CD withdrawing attentions. I see time and time again wives complaining that their husband no longer seems interested and goes as far as impotency. The fantasy overrides and kills the reality in many cases, at least for a time. It's a very real phase and agonizing. Now I'm not saying it's ALL the CD's fault ALL the time...I've seen wives withhold intimacy to punish or control the CDing...but the majority of wives are eager to continue intimacy as it is concrete confirmation that their guy is still in love with them first.

[Fab Karen]

Which bit of the "on topic" bit is that then?




re-read her original post. I responded to the comments she made about a certain attitude. THAT is the "on topic bit."

[DanaR]

I do have a lesbian relationship with my wife but her relationship with me is strictly heterosexual.


This is the way I've always viewed my relationship with my wife. I've also said more than a few times that I could be full time, but my wife isn't a lesbian.

DD thanks for starting this thread; it has been informative and interesting.

[suchacutie]

Ok, so here we are with the genetics of males, and we adore women. After all, we are doing all we can to BE them! As if that's not complicated enough, those of us with SOs who help or at least accept our compulsion, SOs who we loved to begin with when they thought we were ONLY male, have become even more important to us (if that was possible!). So here we are, dressed as the objects of our desires, changing our voices, changing our body movements, even changing our thought processes to match the gender we wish to present, and here is the woman of our dreams, helping us! Right at that moment, is it any wonder that the emotional surge is maybe a little less than controllable? We all know just how emotional this whole process is to begin with (plus and minus) and adding a loving and supportive SO to this mix could very well be, temporarily, overwhelming.

I'm a bit luckier in that my wife made it clear from the start that she has no interest in women in any way. I see that as a tiny tiny tradeoff for her love and support when in any gender, and the most marvelous helper, guide, and supporter when dressed.

I can understand the fantasies...the emotions run so high!

tina

[DanaR]

I'm kind of a flirt and try to have fun while dressed. I've even been accused of sleeping around, which isn't even close to true. My wife and I have been together for many years and I've always been faithful and loyal. Over the years while being out and about, I've had GG's actually come on to me and I'll tease back with them that they must be into girls. I would use the line "I'm a lesbian" to defuse the situation. I used this same ploy on a friend that said she was attracted to me. What was cute, after a while she would tell me she was turning into a lesbian.

[Byllie]

I just scanned through the postings and I'll have to say this is a *very* interesting conversation. It shows, all too well, how we as a society have blurred the lines between gender and sexual identity. They are definitely *not* the same.

IMHO, one's gender relates to one's feminine or masculine identity. Note, I did not say male or female, because that's a structural definition, if not a genetic one, though genetics can be debated.

One's sexual identity relates to whether you wish to have sex with someone who is male or female, structurally.

Ah, but here's where the line blurs. How are we attracted to someone, sexually? Is it because of their "hardware" or is it because of the way they look and act? We do not, in this culture, walk around flashing our *parts* to others; nudity is a whole other issue.

No, what others see is how we dress and act, and that is what initially causes a sexual attraction.

If you are a CD, and see another CD, who you do not know is a CD, and who looks and acts like a woman, you might believe that person to be a GG. Now, if you are attracted to "her", I would say you were acting heterosexually. But, if you knew she was actually a he, and were still attracted, does that make you bi or gay?

Frankly, I do not know. Why? Because I might be responding to the femininity of the person, and acting from heterosexual impulses. Or, I might be reacting to the male underneath, in which case I might be bi or gay.

Tricky, isn't it? And frustrating!

What's the answer? Be true to thyself. And be kind to thyself, as well. Give yourself, and your SO if any, time to explore and understand who and what you are. AS I see it, this exploration is a life-long undertaking, and there are often no hard and fast answers, merely theories.

That said, allow me to propose a litmus test I use for myself. Am I hetero, bi or gay? Well, when I look at a *guy*, I do not feel aroused. Nor do I wish to jump in the sack with *him*. However, when I see a beautiful *woman*, I am aroused, and might entertain fantasies. Which means, IMHO, I am a heterosexual male, who likes to dress and act in a feminine manner.

Anyway, that's my 5 cents.

Toodles!

[ReineD]

That's the problem with labels, they are so limiting.

A GG being attracted to CD doesn't fit under the label of lesbianism, nor does it fit squarely under the label of heterosexism.

Should we coin a new term or should we say to hell with labels?

:yt:

But DD, even if s/he is presenting femme, I am well aware of ALL that s/he is: neither purely male nor female gendered, but a combination of both (assuming of course s/he is not TS), with a male anatomy that also comes with its own sexual energy. And as Celeste pointed out, eventually we end up in a state of UNdress anyway. But even before this happens, in my mind I am making love to who s/he is inside, her/his very essence; not to either him or her. Gender ceases to come into it.

I think it might be helpful for some of the GGs who struggle with a sexual attraction to their femme partners to try to stretch a bit and come to accept that their DH is neither purely male nor female but trans? And in the final analysis, aren't you simply with the person that you love, and does it really matter if when making love the CD thinks of himself as a woman, and the SO thinks of her as a man?

[ReineD]

The fear of GGs then, maybe is not so much centered around the physical appearance of their SO dressed up (although that hardly helps) but the psychology of their personal relationship.




Most times it is the CD withdrawing attentions. I see time and time again wives complaining that their husband no longer seems interested and goes as far as impotency. The fantasy overrides and kills the reality in many cases, at least for a time. ...but the majority of wives are eager to continue intimacy as it is concrete confirmation that their guy is still in love with them first.

Satrana: Exactly! For a woman, the act of making love begins outside the bedroom, in the way that she is treated by her partner, with behaviors that let her know that she is valued, respected, and loved. And (most?) women go under the assumption that in a relationship, loving partners make one another a priority.

If her CDing partner progressively or suddenly becomes obcessed with all things femme, and as Tree points out this leads to engaging in fantasies that do not include her and he becomes less intimate as the result, then the SO may get the impression that he values the CDing more than he does her. It may then appear that she resents the CDing manifestation (dressing) when in fact she is mourning the loss of an intimacy or a connection that she feels is no longer there.

EDIT - Of course this does not apply to SOs who have a moral or cultural bias they cannot overcome.

:hugs:

[Jennifer Giovannetta]

Although I would like to get sexual with my wife while dressed, I do not expect her to indulge in it. I have thought about what it might feel if the roles were reversed. Although it would be strange to me, I would give it a try. But this is probably due to my own crossdressing. It appears that some think that CD's expect thier SO's to indulge in thier sexual desires. I for one try to be as understanding as I can. She does not want to see me dressed all the time. I respect her wishes. And I do not ask her to do things that make her feel uncomfortable. Also I cannot speak for other CD's, but this CD does take other peoples feelings into consideration. And you know something else, I did not ask to be a crossdresser. Years ago before I got married, I did not have an outlet such as this forum. It has given me insight into this thing I do, and met some great people. One such person has become a close freind who is a member of this forum. If I was able to learn more about crossdressing at a younger age, maybe things would of been diffrent. Back then, I was so ashamed of my desires to dress up. And it was also frustrating to me. Sometimes it is in the present. Luckily, my wife is accepting of my crossdressing. I feel so lucky. But life is so short. And I am not going to split hairs. Hell, I dont even know why I want to do this.

[JennaKnots]

You know, with all this "sexuality" talk on these forums, I feel the need to address something here. I find it rather amazing how some CDers express profoundly their "heterosexuality" yet make statements like "I'd like to find a GG and live like lesbians!" Ummm... hold up a second! Let me get this straight (no pun intended), you will OVERLY profess your heterosexuality but instantly presume a GG will live like a lesbian lover with you?!

You people do realize that WOMEN can be straight too, right? That not all... hell, not even MOST women are gay or bi.

Don't you think its being quite the hypocrite to state that you are "oh-so hetero" and "wouldn't dream of engaging in any homosexual" act but then want to sleep with a woman as a woman?

I'm bisexual and am attracted to both feminine and masculine. But I fully understand most people don't feel the same way.

I find it ridiculous that anyone would presume another person to engage in a homosexual act when they are not of that sexuality! Just because you find something feminine attractive doesn't mean your partner should unless this is something they came into the relationship knowing about and agreeing upon.

How would you feel if your SO dressed in an unappealing manner then expected you to have sex with them? And this is not to say that straight women cannot find feminine attractive, just that the PRESUMPTION of a straight individual being okay with a homosexual act just because the "genders are opposite"? Puh-lease!

Although a potentially thought-provoking discussion starter, there are so many assumptions, generalizations and hypotheses', I have to wonder what drives the post in the first place.

The situation described is so specific, yet the tone of the post feels as though it's being applied rather globally, and I have to say it feels judgemental.

We've talked and I know your situation, so obviously I know you like CDs, but what was the intent of this post? To get feedback? To vent? I'd be curious to know where this comes from and why. If there's a personal experience to relay, I tend to think that's much more powerful and useful than "what if's?" and "how dare they's!" So what's going on DD?

[Sherry-Stephanie]

Lots of stuff to read here and it's rather involved but interesting....

I think taking the crossdressing and attaching sexuality to it can't really be done....in other words you as a male dressed as a female can't perform with a real female and think of it as two females...unless I gues the real female gets some "tool" attached to her and performs on you with you taking the female role, but then that would make it more or less a hetro sexual activity.

it's like two guys being together...one takes one role (usually what a hetrosexual would consider female) and the other the male or heterosexual role...

Another senerio is for a CD to perform the female role with a guy and in that case although it is "gay sex" between two guys they are performing in a heterol sexual manner....

To add to DD original comment it has amazed me over the eyars for hetro-sexual males/straight guys in one breath to be so ant-gay in all therir statmets and views and then in the next breath tell how mcuh the idea of having or watching two females get it on together turns them on. I for myself have never understood the rational behind that type of view!!!!! I second the "pleaaaaase!!!! that DD expressed....

[JennaKnots]

Lots of stuff to read here and it's rather involved but interesting....

I think taking the crossdressing and attaching sexuality to it can't really be done....in other words you as a male dressed as a female can't perform with a real female and think of it as two females...unless I gues the real female gets some "tool" attached to her and performs on you with you taking the female role, but then that would make it more or less a hetro sexual activity.

it's like two guys being together...one takes one role (usually what a hetrosexual would consider female) and the other the male or heterosexual role...

Another senerio is for a CD to perform the female role with a guy and in that case although it is "gay sex" between two guys they are performing in a heterol sexual manner....

To add to DD original comment it has amazed me over the eyars for hetro-sexual males/straight guys in one breath to be so ant-gay in all therir statmets and views and then in the next breath tell how mcuh the idea of having or watching two females get it on together turns them on. I for myself have never understood the rational behind that type of view!!!!! I second the "pleaaaaase!!!! that DD expressed....

DD was talking about CDs and their expectations of SOs - not straight men being anti-gay and turned on by lesbians.

This is how a game of "telephone" gets started.

[TxKimberly]

. . . because I don't have a lot of interest in discussing sexuality here, but then I noticed who started the thread - a GG. Yes, I am male enough that this intrigued me. :-)

Even being hetro, many of us WOULD be delighted to have a wife or SO that maybe isn't 100% Hetro and might be willing to be intimate with us while we are "dressed". This in and of itself, I don't think is hypocritical. Just because I'm hetro doesn't mean that I insist everyone else in the world must be as well.
Now if you are a MTF crossdresser, and you rant and rave that you think homosexuality or Bisexuality are disgusting, and yet you turn around and hope for, demand, or expect, this kind of relationship with your SO then that is being hypocritical I think.

Besides, remember that we ARE talking in large part about fantasies. A fantasy does not need to make sense nor be based on logic in any way, shape, or form.

I also saw one or two responses I'd like to comment on:

. . . Since we CD's are generally in denial in the first place over our sexuality . . .
I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but you appear to be implying that "we CD's" are "generally" homosexual or bisexual and just haven't figured it out yet. I think there have been far too many studies made showing that the majority of us ARE hetro for us to just throw it out the window and make an assumption like that.



DD, don`t you know that from a male hetro point of view, Male gayness is bad but ALL beautifull girls would just LOVE to kiss another girl! It just makes the world such a beautifull place!:D

Gotta agree with Alison! I have no moral problem with the thought of two men together. I figure that is their business and none of mine, but the thought of the actual "act" is . . . unpleasant and uncomfortable.
Now the thought of two women together is a whole different story. I've actually devoted some thought to this one and figure that if I think women are beautiful, it's only natural and right that everyone else in the world will too - including other women. Yes, i know this silly but hey . . .

[Brianna1]

I have read this whole line of posting twice as I wanted to really get into the spirit of what DD has tried to achieve by starting this. And I don't come on here every day so I'm late in posting maybe too late!!:o But as I see it what some of us do and I am/was guilty of it too, is not really getting under the skin, so to speak of our SOs and understanding why they might not be happy with what we do. Or if you like, really walking a mile in their shoes (don't care if it is a pun). For me I would at least once have sex, while dressed, with a male because I would want to get as close as I can to the feeling of being a sexually active woman. No, I don't want a gay relationship but I have hugged, and kissed gay males (my hairdressers) out of love in a friendship way because they are great people and have supported me in my lifestyle. I never felt any revulsion in the slightest as I did it, it felt a natural thing to do even though I wouldn't do that to just any guy as a matter of course. That observation, if you like is a revelation to me as a heterosexual CD (it was the first time I'd done that).
As I have also tried to do in threads I have started (at least one) DD is hoping to get us to think seriously about what our SOs feel and by doing that promote better relationships for US ALL. I know she will correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions here and I welcome it!

[DemonicDaughter]

I'd be curious to know where this comes from and why. If there's a personal experience to relay, I tend to think that's much more powerful and useful than "what if's?" and "how dare they's!" So what's going on DD?

Read the below. :)



As I have also tried to do in threads I have started (at least one) DD is hoping to get us to think seriously about what our SOs feel and by doing that promote better relationships for US ALL. I know she will correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions here and I welcome it!

Nope, you are quite right!

Here's the deal folks. I read these forums some days and think about how the posts sound from and "outside view". I KNOW most of you are loving, caring, wonderful individuals who have a lot to offer a SO. Yet then I read comments made, innocently as they are intended, sounding so opposite what the poster expresses elsewhere.

The lesbian fantasy was just the most "universal" example I could find. Does the fantasy bother me, hell no.

Its just that sometimes we all say something we don't realize can be taken wrong when read from another's point of view. READING some posts would imply that almost all MTF CDers all want that fantasy to be real and it makes many straight GGs feel really inadequate because they aren't attracted to the feminine.

All I wanted to do was make some people think about how it makes a SO feel to hear about the "ultimate" fantasy when the SO is aware they cannot fulfill it. Makes them feel they "aren't enough". That's all.

[Emily Anderson]

Its just that sometimes we all say something we don't realize can be taken wrong when read from another's point of view.

DD,

I understand your point, and agree that we need to think about what we are posting. I'm the first to understand that, seeing as I seem to rub a lot of people the wrong way :doh: On the other hand, I don't believe that we should all be "Miss goody two shoes" and say just what we think is PC.

It's a delicate balance I guess, and to be quite honest a lot of thoughts and feelings we have one day are refined the next... Life is a learning process!

[DemonicDaughter]

I understand your point, and agree that we need to think about what we are posting....

Its not about being PC, its about expressing one's self in a more complete manner.

Its one thing to say, "I want to find a woman and live the rest of our lives like lesbians!" Yes, its a fantasy, we all know it would never happen for one simple reason... there is a man involved and seeing how lesbians don't date men, they aren't going to be in a relationship with them. But that's not the point. The point is, those CDers who express that want to be in an all feminine relationship. Girl with gurl. Beautiful thing.

.... unless you're a GG who isn't attracted to the feminine and then its not so good for you. You'll instantly feel as if you aren't "accepting enough" or "woman enough". It makes a lot of straight women feel they cannot be "everything" to the person they love.

Now, were the above statement changed just a bit to say something like... "I have this fantasy of finding a woman that loves my feminine side enough to want to be with me dressed for the rest of my life." A slightly more realistic wish and a little less damaging to a woman's ego. No?

[Bilinda]

Well darn, I saw the title and I was so excited, since I live with two lesbians! But now I see it was meant differently. That said, my situation with my two lesbian friends I live with does sometimes have a lot of sexual tension.

Once I discovered "Bilinda" they were not quite sure what to think. Yes, I'll admit I said some stuff like "well you two like girls, here ya go, lets all have a threesome! lol."

I give Ashley footrubs, and she is a very "lipstick" lesbian. Kelly, who I have known forever, and I had some,, uh,,, learning experiences when we were younger. I'll have to make my own post about real lesbians sometime.

But to the point of the question, or statement, I would be very happy being a part of the girls life's as a extra "lesbian".
:love:

[NatalieBliss]

I must say I am one of the "lucky" ones that has had relations dressed. Despite the wig, bra, forms etc, it was heterosexual by the very nature of the genders involved. That being said it did have an aura of something a bit different than your regular everyday sex. Excuse me now while I am off to :daydreaming:

[Valeria]

Please don't take offense as I am not trying to attack you personally, but the idea of labelling that kind of relationship/lifestyle you describe as lesbian will offend quite a few lesbians. I must ask my sister if she & her partner spend much time doing each other's makeup, shopping for clothes, making each other beautiful.
It certainly offended me. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a lesbian that wasn't offended.

[Valeria]

Being heterosexual means you find women sexually attractive. And being Cd means you enjoy assuming the persona, or at least dress, of a female.

So what's so outragious about the fantasy of wanting to incorporate the two? It's so logical. It makes total sense.
The point is that the mate of a heterosexual man is typically a heterosexual woman, and heterosexual women are usually not interested in engaging in "lesbian sex" (whatever it is y'all think that is). In fact, I'd argue that a straight woman can't engage in "lesbian sex", since I'd say being lesbian is a prerequisite.

For that matter, being a straight man and a gay woman are not the same thing. A heterosexual man in feminine clothing is not actually a lesbian (and a straight guy coopting the label is kind of insulting to lesbian women).

When I see someone self-identified as a heterosexual male trying to describe their having had sex while dressed as a woman with their girlfriend/wife as "lesbian sex", it squicks me. The questions I always want to ask are "Did she perceive it as lesbian sex? Does she know that you are asking her to roleplay a gay woman when you ask her to have sex with you while you are dressed?"

Somehow, I think the usual answer is no.

If she perceives you as a man and perceives herself as a straight woman engaging in slightly kinky but straight sex, then it isn't lesbian sex. If she does perceive it as lesbian sex (as some CDs apparently do), then you can't really expect her to participate.

[Oh BTW, "lesbian sex" often involves being nude...]

[Julogden]

Personally, I feel it doesn't make sense to expect most females to be happy about getting romantic with a male who looks female or at least is trying to look female. Most females are attracted to more-or-less traditional masculinity of one variety or another, and most aren't going to get excited about getting intimate with us while we're all femmed up.

That isn't to say that there aren't any straight females who are attracted to us (obviously, there are quite a few here on these forums), but my experience has been that they are quite the rare exception.

That's why I used to hang out in a women's bar, always hoping to meet women who were bi and might enjoy having someone who is a blend of both genders. Made plenty of friends, but most of the women I met were interested in other females when it came to romance. I did meet a few who were intrigued, but it never went very far. And I did meet one straight female who was very interested, but she was married already. :sad:

Carol

[Bilinda]

Well, today the genders are getting so blurred, it can be confusing. Ashley, the lipstick lesbian friend of mine, is very feminine and very much a lesbian.

Yet there is a club that has drag shows, and she loves to see them. One is a transsexual that has real breast, but still has a males genitals. She just loves her, and once said how she would jump at the chance to be intimate with her.

I said "you do know that she has ***k, right? She said I don't care, I'd still do her. Yet, the thought of doing it with a guy really turns her off. So how's that for logic!!!

[Bev06 GG]

That's the problem with labels, they are so limiting.

A GG being attracted to CD doesn't fit under the label of lesbianism, nor does it fit squarely under the label of heterosexism.

Should we coin a new term or should we say to hell with labels?

Thank you Donna. I enjoy a good relationship with my CD and dressed or not if we want to make love we do. I never think what he's wearing is a sexual turn on, unless its tight jockey shorts that is. I certainly never think of myself as a lesbian, I am just a woman who still fancies the pants of my partner.
Bev

[Valeria]

Well, today the genders are getting so blurred, it can be confusing. Ashley, the lipstick lesbian friend of mine, is very feminine and very much a lesbian.
Out of curiosity, where is she from that she actually uses the phrase "lipstick lesbian" to describe herself? Los Angeles?

In the circles I travel in, that phrase is generally considered condescending and insulting. It implies a degree of "pretend" lesbianism. I describe myself as a queer femme, but never as a lipstick lesbian. The only place I've heard of where it is commonly used to self describe is LA.


Yet there is a club that has drag shows, and she loves to see them. One is a transsexual that has real breast, but still has a males genitals. She just loves her, and once said how she would jump at the chance to be intimate with her.

I said "you do know that she has ***k, right? She said I don't care, I'd still do her. Yet, the thought of doing it with a guy really turns her off. So how's that for logic!!!
How do you see it as not being logical?? It seems perfectly logical and consistent to me.

She's attracted to women in general. In this case, she's still attracted to a woman. This particular woman she's attracted to just happens to have a transsexual history, and she hasn't had genital surgery (at least not yet). But she's still a woman, so you've lost me at how this is illogical or inconsistent.

Now, if the male genitalia are part of the attraction for her, she may have a latent bisexual streak. But I can see how a pre-op trans female could be attractive to her, and yet her still be totally turned off by guys.

[MeraLehanga]

Yes, i enjoy sex wearing petticoat, skirt and bra. Its the feel of dress that turns me on , no, I dont feel like a lesbian.

[Lara Smith]

So many valid points. But our predicament by its very nature is purely fantasy in every way! There is nothing real about it. (Except for what we personally experience) Maybe that is why it is so great and so appealing. It is a wonderful place to go. The problem lies in how we deal with it. It's all good until it begins to consume and control our lives and when we try to force those around us to deal with it too. Most of them can't or won't. It is our fantasy, not theirs. We're just lucky when someone wants to or can share it. But it has to be because they want to!

For the most part, I hate the labels too. Then again, with the rainbow of human sexuality, we need to call something...well something, so we at least know where we are starting in terms of communicating all the amazing varieties of sexuality. Necessary evil? I do like the “fem to fem” description.

[Vaerise]

Is it just me or... most guys think its hot when two girls make-out and its disgusting when two guys make-out?

[CaptLex]

Is it just me or... most guys think its hot when two girls make-out and its disgusting when two guys make-out?
It's just you :tongueout

[Rachaelb64]

Maybe I'm slightly dim here..........

Some of you have stated that if you have sex with a woman 'en femme' then thats classed you as being a 'lesbian'.

Now if I have sex with a woman dressed as a man then thats hetro sex. If I have sex to a woman dressed as woman then that still hetro sex just kinky/fetish hetro sex not lesbian sex.

Hetro sex is male to female (female to male) with all kinks and fetish thrown in, ie, bondage, dress up games, role plays etc etc.....

Homosexual is male to male or female to female with all the kinks and fetish.

Or maybe I'm just being dim :)

[celeste26]

So much about sex is mental rather than physical. Our fantasies are purely mental and the idea of, not the physical part of it, is where this thread was going. Given the power of our minds to create all sorts of scenarios what goes on physically might not be going on mentally. It is not a simple scenario and cannot be dissected so easily.

Lastly given that there are two people involved both with their own expectations and ideas it is sometimes hard to know for sure and it may be that multiple pathways are true.

[KandisTX]

The thing I see is that the title of this thread is "Lesbian Fantasies", to me that means that we fantasize about being a woman while having sex with a woman while we are dressed en femme.

Yes, we are presenting as female, but genetically and physically, we are still male. While in your mind you can think/dream/imagine that you are a woman being made love to by a woman, the reality of the situation is that you are still male.

If I say to my wife "Make me feel like a woman", there is only so far she can take that FANTASY for me. Why? Because my body is not the same as a womans, I don't feel things the same as a woman would, my mind is not female even if I am presenting that by what I wear and attempt to present with my mannerisms and actions.

HOWEVER, one of the key factors to a HEALTHY and HAPPY life is to have a great imagination and the ability to fantasize. We all do it, in one way or another, and at one time or another it has been done during the act of having sex with someone.

Kandis:love::rose2:
((I'm still a lesbian trapped in a mans body who dresses like a woman)) ;)

[CharleneT]

This thread has been very interesting, with intriguing answers and questions being discussed ! I love it ! When I first sought out a CD discussion board, one of the things I hoped to learn about was this sort of issue. My belief is that CD's are generally pretty loose about gender AND sexuality. I believe that, because to me they are linked. Sure, you can be a hetrosexual person who just likes to wear clothing etc of the opposite sex. But I think it is more common that the person under those opposite sex clothes is a mixture of sexualities and genders. You can look at it as a continuum, on which you fall somewhere. For me, I am sliding on that continuum and I cannot say for sure where I will stop. For years, under-dressing was all that I needed. Very satiating. Now, as I get older I desire more of a feminine persona as well as outer garb. Along with that is a change in my sexual outlook. I am bisexual and have been for my entire adulthood. Now though, I am seeing a more complex attitude developing in my reaction to different potential lovers. One aspect of that is indeed the "lesbian fantasy world" as discussed here. My fantasies in the past were always with me as a male and my potential lovers varied. There are times now where I dream of myself as a woman, with either a man or another woman as my sexual partner. This change has been slow, but speed up with my expanded dressing horizons. So, does that mean the dress makes the lesbian ? No, not at all. Rather it is the flexible sexuality does it. One thing is for sure though, we are all a lot more sensitive to the subtleties of sexuality and gender than the majority of the population.

Do all CD's have flexible sexualities ? I do not think so. I do think that it is more likely than with a more traditionally oriented person. As you grow in your experience of cross dressing (and transgenderedness in general) I think you will find it easier to contemplate alternative sexuality. You are after all playing with the outward expression of that, it would only make sense that you would ponder the inward expression as well. In some people case, I believe that for their own comfort, they deny those thoughts. Which is fine for them.

Getting back to the original post's questions, I agree that it is unfair to expect a GG who is strait to desire a mate that is a CD in their femme mode. Hopefully, those couples work out some way for each to enjoy what they desire, while respecting the others boundries. Even more I hope that they find a way to explore those boundries as it can be a rich territory of new discoveries !! If you start a relationship out with your SO knowing about your alternate dress etc, you will likely not have the potential problem we are discussing.

Charlene

[tracigirl_tv]

Is it just me or... most guys think its hot when two girls make-out and its disgusting when two guys make-out?

Well, as for me.....two people of ANY persuasion engaged in kissing is mucho caliente. :battingeyelashes:

[DonnaT]

http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0820,girls-love-gay-m,440933,24.html

[Pamela Julie]

I ignore the labels. I just like sex only with women, regardless of how I am dressed. I always feel like a woman on the inside, if you insist on a label, then in my mind, I am a lesbian. To the woman I am a hetero man. Most of all I am me!

Pamela:)

[Angie G]

DD My dream my be coming true as my wife may be OK with trying some dress up while making love. She is open to it bit not real keen on the idea. But at least she will try it. :hugs:
Angie

[Susan.]

I think of it as being a heterosexual relationship. My wife thinks of it as being a lesbian relationship, but to tell the truth I think it her way of avoiding me while dressed. And then again I don't pretend to be a lesbian with her.

[annabellesmooth]

wow there so many cd's that are hetro
im of the oppion that if it feels good do it
im bi/in a gay relation??? or an i just a queer, and do dress up go out n have a ball (or 2)
have been with ggs but the big turn on is a cross dress lover found on the dance floor (a girl with the lot is best)
just a little crazy
out to impress
my self:love:
hugs to all


(as a young fat teased guy...glasses buck toothed red hair n freckles... went to an all boys school n got cort kissen another boy, at 13yo not good... but im not the only one an i survived to blossom... 45 now n wish id hade the corrage 20 yrs ago)

[Phoebie Phoenix]

I like to think of myself as trysexual, as I am generally willing to try just about anything :)

I have had sex with both men and women, and both are extremely enjoyable activities. Never had the opportunity to do so while dressed (would LOVE to though - have a particular kinky fantasy with corsets, boots, whip etc ...).

Sex is what you make it however - just use your imagination and it can be anything you want it to be.

xxx

[deja true]

I'm thinking of changing my gender identity label from 'heteroflexible' to...

'hetero-curious'!

Any other bitches out there wonder what it's like to be a "real man"?

Might be a kick to try.....for a little while, anyway...







Nah!

[boy2girl31]

Being that most of us don't have the right equipment to be a lesbian I think the point is moot. Yet the desire to feel like a lesbian is one of the big fantasies for a lot of us. DD is correct though if the gg in question is straight then she will not take to well to our fantasies and we should then induldge her wishes for you never know what the future will hold with time and love you may get to act upon your fantasies but don't rush it let her decide when it is time if ever. The desire to fulfill a fantasy that your partner is not ready for could end your relationship. Be careful.

[Paularus85]

God I have hit the treasure trove of issues that I have been thinking about since I found my sweetie wearing panties the other day. I must confess that when I looked at him from the back i thouhgt the panties looked pretty good on him. I have told him that it was OK to wear them all of the time but I think he is waiting for the other shoe to drop. So far reading this forum I want to let him know that the other shoe just might be a 3 inch open toe pump in his size. Now I need to find out what his sizes are so that if we try this further I can buy him some presents.

[Alys]

I guess the issue that causes that kind of sentiment is that many people still identify as a male when they're dressed~ So to them, they're expressing their male heterosexuality through faux-lesbianism :3 It makes sense to them in that regard I suppose.

Personally, I am and have always been an identifier with pansexuality; that is to say that I love the person first and the gender second, as opposed to the other way around as is the so-called 'norm'.

[Emily Anderson]

Alys, I'm with you on this one, but only after many years of thinking the other way around.

[Bilinda]

Out of curiosity, where is she from that she actually uses the phrase "lipstick lesbian" to describe herself? Los Angeles?

HI there, I was reading this post again and saw this, sorry it's been a while. No she's from Orlando, Fl. She seems to use several terms for herself. Lipstick lesbian, fem lesbian and so on. She does not think any of them are disrespectful.


How do you see it as not being logical?? It seems perfectly logical and consistent to me.

She's attracted to women in general. In this case, she's still attracted to a woman. This particular woman she's attracted to just happens to have a transsexual history, and she hasn't had genital surgery (at least not yet). But she's still a woman, so you've lost me at how this is illogical or inconsistent.

Oh, I see what you mean. Your saying that this person was born a man physically, but mentally or whatever you want to call it is really a woman. So she is attracted to the woman within the man's body. Yes I can understand that when you put it that way.

However, If I met a transsexual woman that was still a man, as far as the body goes, I would have a hard time being intimate with her. Even though I think I have a bi-curious streak in me. But mentally I can see your point.

[Donna Michelle]

Is it just me or... most guys think its hot when two girls make-out and its disgusting when two guys make-out?

Most straight guys feel that way and some conservative girls. I don't think it is disgusting, but it doesn't turn me on. My wife has gay friends she wouldn't mind watching just as I wouldn't mind watching two girls make out. :D

It is funny that this forum has so many straight men who crossdress. I find it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find straight crossdressers in my area. They are almost ALL gay! My CD friend Debbi lied and said she was straight just to be my friend. She knows I don't want to have sex with her, but we are still friends.


If I met a transsexual woman that was still a man, as far as the body goes, I would have a hard time being intimate with her.

I wouldn't be with someone with guy parts. Yuck! I don't even want MY guy parts. My friend Debbi will do anyone. You can ask her. She prefers men or CD men, though she is married to a woman (who doesn't know about the Debbi side or activities).

Whatever you like is fine for you and your partner(s).

[CharleneT]

It is funny that this forum has so many straight men who crossdress. I find it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find straight crossdressers in my area. They are almost ALL gay! My CD friend Debbi lied and said she was straight just to be my friend. She knows I don't want to have sex with her, but we are still friends.



Well... I have noticed this affect in several different sexuality based user groups. I think it is true for all of American society. Basically it comes down to this: men, in general, fear admitting alternative sexual leanings much more than do women. Why that is I am not sure. Machismo ? Inherrent lack of self confidence ? Just slower than women to accept alternative roles in general ? Many possibilities other than these !! Whatever it is, they are unsure of putting it in print, but are willing to do "something".


Charlene

[MalibuJenny]

Our society is much more accepting of women that like other women than men who identify as being gay.

But of course, all these labels mean something different to just about everyone. Lots of CDers claim they like male attention when dressed to a greater or lesser degree but steadfastly insist they are straight. Same goes for all the guys that like t-girls.

In another thread I posted the Kinsey Scale which slides between being 100% straight to 100% gay. Studies show that very few people fall at the far ends of this spectrum, meaning that just about everyone has at least a passing fantasy of a same-sex encounter. For many CDers, just getting the attention of a man while dressed is thrilling and while that doesn't make you gay, it also puts you a couple of clicks down that Kinsey Scale.

Actions and preferences determine sexuality, not how you label yourself or others.

[MJ]

interesting thread thank you all . but i feel it's finding that balance and respect . whatever floats your boat .

[Julie York]

My friend Debbi will do anyone.

I've had her.


:D

[Satrana]

Lots of CDers claim they like male attention when dressed to a greater or lesser degree but steadfastly insist they are straight.

I don't see any conflict in this statement. Being able to appreciate male attention to boost my female ego is separate from being sexually attracted to men. I would like female attention as well, anything to reaffirm what I feel inside.

After all dressing up and receiving attention is part of the parcel which attracts us to crossdressing. It gets boring real quick to only ever dress up for yourself. If you are going to spend lots of time and money on your presentation then you will want confirmation from others that you have done a good job and male sexual attention (or attention from a lesbian) would represent the icing on the cake.

And even if this were to lead to sex, again that does not mean the CD is gay or even bisexual. It is not that hard to have sex with someone you are not sexually attracted to but you are gaining something from. If you were a prostitute you are gaining money, if you are a heterosexual CD, you are gaining the "ultimate female experience". Sex can be a trade-off situation without the participant's sexuality being relevant.

Since everyone is potentially bisexual, CDing helps break down the socially contrived barriers to same sex relationships since the standard gender roles are thrown out of the window. CDing helps to broaden our perspective that gender and sexuality are not the black and white issues we were programmed to believe.

[switcheralso]

I can tell you that it is a change in motion I also stated that in my macho voice that I am heterosexual but like to be a female. Now I openly admit I am bisexual. If the continuum is the truth the next step will be I am just a homosexual. I have to just look into myself and answer the question with guts.

[Ayame]

The way I look at it is me myself I am not a lesbian but still a man. I don't pretend to act like a woman. I still act like myself I am naturally a feminine guy but that doesn't mean that I don't have any masculinity either because I feel I am an equal balance.

However any guy who wants to cross dress and wants their partner to accept it is wrong if they would not return the favor. Me myself I would do anything to support my SO if she wanted to buy a zebra I'd support her and if she wanted to dress different or become a ftm I'd support her if she wanted to become an astronaut I'm all ears. I'd support her no matter what. I find it greedy when people aren't willing to accept things but want their things accepted.

Sorry to say but most cross dressers are greedy people! Most of you expect or want your SO's to accept more than you ever will.




How would you feel if your SO dressed in an unappealing manner then expected you to have sex with them?

I wouldn't mind because I know she would do the same for me and a relationship is not about me or her its about working together as a team and doing things you both enjoy.

[AshleyCD]

Sorry, but yes I am greedy damn it. No matter what mode I am in, the only penis better be mine though. Sorry been there and they freak me out. And sorry no FTM persons transitioning. Just like pussy doesn't turn you on. I think most the time if you didn't know before being married about the person wanting to transition to the other sex and only found out after they would freak out.

What the problem being is most the time people don't let their partners know exactly what they can and can't live without and this should be close to the beginning of the relationship. If you don't you are just building a "fake" relationship and it will fall apart when you no longer can fake it and this has to do with faking anything, not just about cding.

[Roberta Llyan]

Perhaps I'm just the opposite. I would love to find a gay male who would become my Master and Lord and I his doll baby.

But then I don't "pretend" to be hetro. I'm proud to be bi and love gay men.

[Paulette]

My take would be for a relationship to be truly lesbian the cd would have to maintain her tuck through out the encounter other wise it becomes a boy wearing girls clothes and having soft hairless skin having relations with a girl. Now do not get me wrong there are many of the ladies who prefer the softer side of some men and some men trying to live the female fantasy will try harder to please their GG in ways only another woman want to do.

[DemonicDaughter]

because the above post keeps showing up as "new" over the past few days yet always says it was posted "today". I'm experiencing the worst deja vu...

[CaptLex]

because the above post keeps showing up as "new" over the past few days yet always says it was posted "today". I'm experiencing the worst deja vu...
Nope it's not the Matrix and it's not deja vu . . . seems like it's a persistent little gremlin. It will be taken care of. :skull:

[docrobbysherry]

However any guy who wants to cross dress and wants their partner to accept it is wrong if they would not return the favor. Me myself I would do anything to support my SO if she wanted to buy a zebra I'd support her and if she wanted to dress different or become a ftm I'd support her if she wanted to become an astronaut I'm all ears. I'd support her no matter what. I find it greedy when people aren't willing to accept things but want their things accepted.

Sorry to say but most cross dressers are greedy people! Most of you expect or want your SO's to accept more than you ever will.

I wouldn't mind because I know she would do the same for me and a relationship is not about me or her its about working together as a team and doing things you both enjoy.

And I mean that in the BEST way. U sound like me, 25 years ago. The problem is "our" dream relationship requires another person. If that other person is a GG, like mine was, u may be deceived and/or disappointed, as I was.

I thot my ex and I had the relationship u described, exactly. And for nearly 10 years, it WAS great! Our breakup was caused by her suddenly wanting to change everything to suit her. And that she was tired of "faking it" for all those years. Some changes included her being able to hang out evenings with her girlfriends. It soon became apparent, that they were quite literally "girlfriends". The end of our Camelot was at hand!

My point is, some GGs do what is necessary to please the man of their choice. Then, when you're roped in, u find out who she really is. The chameleon syndrome, if u will.

Just becareful out there Lolita. I don't regret the 8 good years I had with the woman I loved. Or my daughter with her. But, DO I resent loving someone who so completely fooled me! I can see the signs looking back, but love can blind u to just about anything!

Remember THAT, if nothing else in my rant!:chatterbox:

[DemonicDaughter]

Nope it's not the Matrix and it's not deja vu . . . seems like it's a persistent little gremlin. It will be taken care of. :skull:

And now its gone.... Is it going to pop up again? Is it the person posting it and mods deleting it? Is it really gremlins, a glitch or whatever? In MY thread?! WTF!? That's not right.... not right at ALL!

[Lana Laptop]

I am very happy with my male side...Lana is everything the man can't be...she is not the deepest person in the world, but she's very sincere. Ever since I was very young, the way a woman appeared, and carried herself was more interesting to me than what she actually looked like, if that's not too confusing. I love the look of long, sexy hair, beautiful legs, trim female figure...the first time I attempted to give my self that appearance I realized the feeling of the clothes on me was as overwhelming as the appearance I gave myself...I looked in the mirror and almost crumbled..like,"this is what looking like this feels like? This is amazing! How do women get anything done?"
I have no desire to masquerade as a woman to be with a man, however, I am totally comfortable to carry on an intimate encounter with another CD, if the spark and sincerity is there. I love the feel of soft,smooth skin, but tight nylon or pvc is just as good to me...the illusion is what female is all about, right? I haven't dressed to please anyone else but myself, but if I were a guy, I'd want to be with me ! L

[CaptLex]

And now its gone....
Told you I'd take care of it.


Is it going to pop up again?
It better not - if it does, please let one of the mods know.


Is it the person posting it and mods deleting it? Is it really gremlins, a glitch or whatever? In MY thread?! WTF!? That's not right.... not right at ALL!
I'll PM you - don't want to take your thread further off course. :titanic:

[sfwarbonnet]

I think a lesbian is someone who is attracted to women and presents themselves as a female, no matter what their birth gender. CDers who are attracted to women are lesbian wannabes, as are participating GG’s. Most spouses are not lesbians, and therein lies the rub – they usually don’t want to be in public with their hubby when he is en femme, nor do they want to go with him to a ladies restroom, or have sex with him when he is impersonating a female.

[kimberlyt221]

Personally, I think just having a GG friend to help with the transitions, and to go out on "girl"
time would be incredible. My CD'ing had a definite sexual cast when I was in my teens, but it seems to have evolved into a much more comfortable place where I just would like to look, feel, and PASS for a woman for a little while. To me, that would be a much more valuable "GG and me" situation.