A confession

[Lucy Bright]

In the past, I’ve been a bit irritated when people on this forum go out of their way to say (even when it’s not relevant to the topic in hand) that they are NOT GAY. “Who cares?” has always been my immediate response, along with a cringe at the overtone of homophobia.

BUT – after following the recent discussions over at http://www.bilerico.com/2008/05/uh_oh.php (where our own battybattybats has been playing an admirable part), I’ve come to realise that I’ve been guilty of just that kind of defensive reaction myself – not against homosexuality, but against fetishism. I’ve always shrunk from the idea that people might think I had a clothes fetish, rather than being transgender – but why? I don't, but what would be so shameful about it if I had? It’s not like fetishists are hurting anyone, for goodness’ sake!

In a way, I’ve got to thank the HBS transgender-haters at bilerico.com for making me ferret out this bit of prejudice. It was their suggestion that all transgender people are fetishists and fantasists that made me look again at my own defensive reactions.

Kisses,

Lucy

[Sophia KT]

True it is a fetish, but fetish seems to tie in with rubber, leather, etc. In being a tv you are trying to change your presentation of yourself, specifically your gender. People who like traditional fetish clothes don't necessarily do that.

Still you're right, who cares. But I think there may be an element of smartypantishness in their argument [which I haven't bothered reading, admittedly].


:daydreaming:

[Lilith Moon]

I like presenting as female. I also like the smell/feel/look of what many people regard as fetish fabrics. So what ? It could be argued that *anything* that looks sexy and desirable but isn't actually part of physical sex is a fetish.

[DemonicDaughter]

I think many people fear being labeled not only because of the stigma that might be involved but also because of the implication that they might be perceived as something they are not. Like you, I dislike the unnecessary declaration of heterosexuality when it isn't warranted. But I've come to realize, that the person declaring it, often feel their actions are what they would consider homosexual actions (or what they think someone else would interpret them as homosexual acts). I think a lot of time its misinformation. Many only know about gay/bi/lesbians with what's presented in mainstream media, which is, to say the least, a very poor presentation at best.

Its good to see you've been able to identify within yourself, your own prejudices. It takes a strong person to admit it. Kudos to you!

:love:

[Lara Smith]

At this point, I have no shame. I’ll admit it. I have a fetish! I have a fetish for silky panties, for pretty bras, for nylons and high heels, for lipstick, for slips, for tight skirts, for A-line skirts, for dresses, for perfume, for girls, for beautiful women, for feeling girly, for feeling and looking sexy. There is no question and no doubt about it, I have a feminity fetish! If it is girly, I’m in!

[Michelle 51]

For a lot of crossdressers when we say that it means hey i ,m having trouble finding out who i am,I,m not attracted to men(for most of us} i,m married,love my kids,love my wife but love to dress as a women.Most people would relate a man dressing and acting as a women as he must be gay[another myth because a lot of gays don,t] so when i use to wonder whats wrong here when i was dressed in ladies underwear with nylons and high heels with a mini skirt on the first thing crosses your mind is am i gay.Thank god for the internet especialy this site because it has ansered a lot of questions.

[TSchapes]

I know that labels are a problem only because language itself is a problem. Words have different meanings in different contexts. The connotation of a word can have adverse affects compared to the denotation. For example:

Our favorite bashing label here in the United States is "Transvestite". The connotation of the word, has lurid and perverted overtones to the CD's in the United States. From what I've read on this board and other places, that CD's in Britain and elsewhere believe it is perfectly interchangeable with crossdressing. They do not have the same connotation of the word. The denotation trans = cross and vestiges = clothing means just that, crossdressing. The cultures are different, the word has different meanings.

Same for the word "Fetish", though now you have a difference between everyday terminology and the medical or psychological definitions.

Fetish can mean:
an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency (source dictionary.com)

Well I don't know about you, but the dresses I wear have some sort of magical potency with me! Embodiment of a female maybe? You bet!

But now, here's the medical/psycological definition:

any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation. (source dictionary.com)

Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are we talking about here. This is getting personal! Now we are talking about self-gratification and all the humiliation that our society heaps upon it. I can feel the hair on my palms growing as I write! :eek:

So you can see that language can be a problem in and of itself. For me I'm always searching for the right words and yet I know I'm not going to get it 100% right and offend someone. I think that's why I like talking to people face to face so you can get their feedback immediately through their body language. Which is another thing missing on these boards.

When I do read someone's post on this board that says they crossdress and are not homosexual, I don't necessarily assume they are homophobic. Chances are they are new to this. They come from an outside world that is perceived to be hostile to our way of life and gays and their defenses are up.

With any of this stuff, it is our job to reassure them they are amongst friends and that we want to help and listen. Again for me, the TG tent is large and all inclusive.

Love as always, Tracy

[Janice1948]

I agree with Lara, I absolutely have a femininity fetish and if its pink, don't get in my way. Just kidding but I do love pink or did you assume that already.

Hugs, Janice

[Deborah Jane]

My names Deborah and i have a fetish for dressing as a tarty looking woman:o

Hang on...I,m a tart, i,m meant to dress like that!!!

[battybattybats]

Thanks for the nice words Lucy!
And congrats on discovering and facing your bias! We all have them, a good person is one who tries to find and fight them rather than defend and disguise them.

It's important to note that the meaning of fetish in the way they are using it is very different from the general usage. They aren't saying that crossdressing is a fetish like being a bit kinky, being into the occassional bit of bondage or rubber clothes. They mean a paraphilia, a messy catch-all topic that includes rapists and child molesters! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphilia

Gays and lesbians used to be considered such a paraphilic fetish. When it was declassified as such it was a major change in the gay rights movement and vastly helped them gain acceptance. The DSM is under review again with probably the worst person possible in charge as the Bilerico link was meant to be about.

The difference of course is ethics, one of the main arguments made by the gay and lesbian movement, they were different but weren't harming anyone. The high amounts of depression and mental health issues amongs them came from trying to repress themselves and being shunned and decried by society and considered mentally ill. A child molester of course isn't acting consensually and is doing harm, a huge difference. A crossdresser is not harming anyone, whatever suffering they and their families feel are exactly the same as gay people and their families went through.

Being associated with gays and lesbians, the fetish-scene etc doesn't worry me at all. Some of the other associations are different.

The tone of criticism in the way these HBS people use the word fetish as an insult really annoys me. They complain about being associated with crossdressers, with gays and lesbians, with transexuals who don't chose to have genital surgery and yet they go to gay lesbian biseual and transgender blogs to stir up huge aggresive and often vindictive arguments about their point of view. I think they define themselves with large amounts of homophobia and transphobia. The way they usurp discussions, especially this one, just to get attention to their ideas and to pour out their scorn for the idea of the transgender community, a gender-spectrum, crossdressers and transexuals that don't follow thier views is really abominable.

If the HBS people get their way anyone who doesn't fit their extreme model of transexualism may end up having to struggle to get their hormones and SRS, they seem determined to swamp this discussion even when Zucker is a threat to them too, but if they get HBS recognised as a medical disorder and all non-HBS transgender considered GID under Zuckers views....

Maybe they want Zucker in there...

As for why people end up with defensive prejudices, people think often by making associations. Often at an unconcious level. A long held association can be hard to shake. If people made an unconcious negative association with gay people or fetishes or crossdressers for that matter then even though they may not have a concious bias or a concious reason for the bias it will be a reflexive reaction. A mental habit. And just like other habits it can be undone, be becoming aware of it and by unlearning it.

[Mary Morgan]

I'm reminded of the clics in high school, you know the ones with the prettiest girls, or the best athletes. Then I'm reminded of the people that were "unacceptable", the nerds and the whatevers. Now I frequently see that there is division between gender communities, between the transgender and the transexual, between, between, between... It seems that too many people build themselves up by tearing others down, and in the end what? To quote a famous fellow from LA, "can't we all just get along?"

[battybattybats]

Now I frequently see that there is division between gender communities, between the transgender and the transexual, between, between, between... It seems that too many people build themselves up by tearing others down, and in the end what? To quote a famous fellow from LA, "can't we all just get along?"

Some can, here, elsewhere online and face-to-face I have transexual friends, crossdressing friends, straight, bi, gay, lesbian, gender conforming and gender non-conforming friends.

In fact i think the tolerant and good outnumber the intolerant and bad. The bad ones just shout larger to make themselves look bigger and more important than they really are.

[Bilinda]

My, what an interesting thread. I'm not going to say how, but I know of, and am friends with, just about everyone who is labeled everything!

I live with two lesbians, I am friends with a transvestite in the UK, I know several transsexxuals, some ladyboys, some ********, a bit of everything, including some adult performers.

In the UK, a transvestite is a crossdresser. They don't use the word crossdresser much, it's transvestite or TV. Here in the US transvestite for most is some gay looking pervert with a fetish for pantyhose while jerking off, not that I see anything wrong with that!

But transvestite really means the same as CD, maybe just a bit more fetish clothing stuff. I myself don't give a damn what anyone calls me, and I've been called everything!

You can't get defensive about what others say. They are going to believe what the want, and nothing is going to change that. Live is too short to care about small people. Just don't be around them and live your life as you want! :D

[TSchapes]

You can't get defensive about what others say. They are going to believe what the want, and nothing is going to change that. Life is too short to care about small people. Just don't be around them and live your life as you want! :D

And thank you, you hit the nail on the head! :hugs:

-Tracy

[battybattybats]

You can't get defensive about what others say. They are going to believe what the want, and nothing is going to change that. Live is too short to care about small people. Just don't be around them and live your life as you want! :D

In general, I agree.
When they are lobbying, influencing or participating directly in writing the psychiatric definition of gender identity disorder upon which many western countries base their decision on whether to add hormones and SRS to public health systems dramaticly changing the lives for good or ill of thousands of transexuals.. that makes it different.

Not to mention the flow-on effect to crossdressers.

[celeste26]

Whether or not it comes from ignorance the first question out of the S/O's mouth when we confess our activity is "does that mean you're gay" and the reason for this thread (to get back to it) is this question.

Yes it is a very common reaction, but not the only reaction to our "confessional conversation". Of course those who carefully brought the whole issue up long before the relationship got serious can prevent this from ever being a question through a better set of statements prior to "question and answer" time.

[docrobbysherry]

I get flack here quite often. For wearing masks! Many in the CD/TG community frown on closet fetishists. Maybe because THEIR goal is go out in public dressed and hopefully pass. I understand why they mite find the more outragious looking CDs distasteful, even threatening!

But, I commit the SAME SINS that I suffer from others! The reason I wear masks, is my own prejudice against the "man in a dress" look. When I first found this site, I found it very unattractive on others and myself. I don't know why.

I've become much more accepting since then. However, as Batty states, these subconscious prejudices r difficult for the individual to understand or control! I still cannot abide my fem alterego without my faces!

[iwearstockings]

I like to dress up as a man wearing female undies and clothes. I prefer to do this rather than try to 'pass' with Wigs etc( although I have tried that too). I do like to wear make up when I can although i get so excited when i get dressed more often than not I can't be bothered( so i can see how a female mask neatly avoids that situation lol!). I like to shave before taking any pics of myself as stubble on your chin does not go at all...! I suppose I do try to feminise my face in that way although I don't want to be a woman at all So I guess I am a fetishist rather than a cross-dresser.
I dont find either term sounds very good to me.. someone needs to come up with some cool sounding terms for what we do.
docrobbysherry I visited your site and I liked what you have written about dressing up. You talk good sense.
Oh by the way.. I'm not gay!( lol sorry lucy!)

[Mary Morgan]

Baty,

No question that you are right. One of the reasons I really enjoy this forum is the openess, acceptance and friendship extended to all. A nicer bunch of folks you will not find. Now if I could just get my wife to participate in the discussion.

[Lucy Bright]

The tone of criticism in the way these HBS people use the word fetish as an insult really annoys me. They complain about being associated with crossdressers, with gays and lesbians, with transexuals who don't chose to have genital surgery and yet they go to gay lesbian biseual and transgender blogs to stir up huge aggresive and often vindictive arguments about their point of view. I think they define themselves with large amounts of homophobia and transphobia. The way they usurp discussions, especially this one, just to get attention to their ideas and to pour out their scorn for the idea of the transgender community, a gender-spectrum, crossdressers and transexuals that don't follow thier views is really abominable.

I'll admit I was shocked by the level of vitriol, and their unconcealed scorn for anyone different from themselves. It's not the kind of thing you expect on a forum like that.

Kisses,

Lucy

[battybattybats]

I'll admit I was shocked by the level of vitriol, and their unconcealed scorn for anyone different from themselves. It's not the kind of thing you expect on a forum like that.

Kisses,

Lucy

Indeed. And even if they end up being right that some transexuals are neurologicly distinct from the rest of the transgender spectrum all the rest of what they say and do, especially the way they go about saying it, really hurts the chances of people siding with and supporting them.

[CD Susan]

[QUOTE=DemonicDaughter;1289752]I think many people fear being labeled not only because of the stigma that might be involved but also because of the implication that they might be perceived as something they are not. Like you, I dislike the unnecessary declaration of heterosexuality when it isn't warranted. But I've come to realize, that the person declaring it, often feel their actions are what they would consider homosexual actions (or what they think someone else would interpret them as homosexual acts). I think a lot of time its misinformation. Many only know about gay/bi/lesbians with what's presented in mainstream media, which is, to say the least, a very poor presentation at best.

Well said DD . I agree completely with what you are saying and after thinking it over cannot find the words to improve on it.

[Fab Karen]

yep. Every time I see someone going out of their way to say that, I think sure, you & Larry Craig.
"the louder he talked of his honour, the more we counted our spoons." - Emerson

[Paulette]

Lets be honest here labels are for jars not people for every trait found in one person you find another with a slightly differnt one. If society would get off it's double standard about how we dress the label machine would rust. Why do women wear mens fashions are they thought to crossdressers? They are given a pass for what ever reason just as they are about showing emotions in public and being sensitive towards others. If a man likes to wear soft fabrics with a certain cut and to show his emotions we have to run out and get the label machine before society crumbles as we know it.

Hi!
I am Paulette and like to wear fit jeans that hug my butt and do not have a ton of fabric between my legs so I wear girls clothes. My nipples are very sensitvie and a bra keeps my shirt from rubbing them, Oh my God get the label machine.

May be we need a group like CDA where we could take it one step at a time. I would join if those steps could be in a nice strappy heel.

[Jannette H]

Ladies
Social Mores change all the time. We are in the middle of one. Think about it. This Forum is a wonderful place to visit. Anyway it could be that I have a fetish for certain types of female clothing but if thats it so be it.:2c: