True femininity, what does it mean for you?

[DemonicDaughter]

A recent discussion provoked this question in my head and its been rambling around in there for a few days.

Seems to me we have a lot of posts on here regarding what GGs wear and do in comparison to CDers. Now I find it funny that many CDers state they love being "girly" yet threads about GGs not being feminine spring up often. This sort of leads to the idea of what exactly do some of these posters consider "feminine" and where do these ideas develop. If they don't consider women being feminine, they why are they presenting as one?

In other words... is it really that you wish to present as a woman or that you are defining your own image of feminine?

What exactly do you consider feminine?

Where did you develop this idea?

Is there a particular individual who personified femininity for you? (Though using a famous person is fine but I would like you to offer the role they played that made them appear feminine to you.)

Do you express this femininity in ways other than clothing? If yes, how so? If no, why?

Would/do you date a partner that is more/less/equally as feminine as you? Do you prefer them more or less feminine? How do you feel they could be more/less feminine?

*DISCLAIMER: These questions are NOT directed to any one thread nor individual. They are NOT meant to imply anything other than a genuine question with the desire to understand how others feel. I DON'T WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU FIND WRONG WITH ANY PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE! I want to hear an individual and personal account of femininity. THAT'S IT!

[Kate Simmons]

Gosh DD, I think that may be an individual call. Who is to say what femininity is or masculinity for that matter? We've seen how folks act during our lives if they are genetically one or the other but I think really a lot of it is intrinsic. I personally think of femininity as caring for others such as family in a nurturing way and it has nothing to do with appearance per se. There is a definate quality of it that is positive. Even so, men can develop this quality as well although they may not want to admit it possibly due to peer pressure in many cases. I think a lot of us try to grasp the essense of that in our own limited way and some of us have succeeded in that respect and some not. Really it's about being a person. My philosophy is just be yourself. The less we try to attempt to fulfill some kind of image, the better off we are and that is when we find true freedom.:)

[Jamie S.]

I act exactly the same way as I do when I'm male pretty much. I'm just happier "being" a female.

[Emily Anderson]

For me it's all about the appearance, clothes, accessories, and mannerisms which are typically associated with females. As far as intellect, morals, behaviour etc. are concerned, I believe the same qualities can be found in both males and females.

To me, anything "feminine" is what is likely to get you in trouble with your mates down at the pub :)

[Sophia KT]

For me it is about being relaxed and unhurried; being dressed to look nice, as opposed to for a practical purpose. I took it all in from women, in real life and films, etc. that I found attractive. I'm afraid that I am terribly vain and shallow about this.

Fem personified? for me is the classic lady [of a certain profession] from a wild west bar.

[Deborah Jane]

Difficult question DD on many differant levels!!
With me it,s as much about the clothing, the makeup and the whole trying to be as girly as i can manage, as anything else.
I think sometimes i just need to release the "inner tart" to come out and play:)

When i,m not dressed as Debs, i,m just an average guy..I doubt anyone would guess my "little secret".

Dating?? Any woman who was willing to accept me as i am, i would be happy with...No more pretending i can stop c/ding!!

[docrobbysherry]

Women r; sweet, sypathetic, understanding, considerate, emotional, occassionally unreasonable, and to me, completely unrational!

Pretty much everything I'm NOT!

The only way I can appear to be womanlike is, in my pics!

[Angie G]

My wife is very feminine and I love it that way. And there are a lot of gg's out there that are also very feminine and dress like it.
I do express my self as feminine by siting when using the restroom siting with my knees together crossing my legs at the knee keeping my nails polished(clear mat finich.) :hugs:
Angie

[harmony]

wow dd!what a deep question!my respect for you increases even more!
the worship of femininity is one of the oldest cults in the world.(isis sophia mary magdalen)
it keeps our world from destroying itself.
it is creation-birth-embracing-nurturing-a home for the male hunter to return to and feel safe-roundness-softness.
women are physicaly equipt to express this and some manage .
as a genetic male i need this balance and my awareness of this drives me to even physically express this by aligning my outer shell with the needs of my soul.lovemaking is in essence praying at the altar of femininity to become whole in ideally having a simultaniuos orgasm.
the world has become a hard and greedy place getting divorced from what is essential in its unrestricted hunt for power and riches-true femininity would balance this and this could be our task .
a woman who projects the full complement of femininty i call a full blooded woman-it is a rare thing and when i see it i absolutly adore it.

[Joanne f]

Hum to many questions at once for my little brain to cope with but i will have a go at a few :doh:
Femininity to me has nothing to do with the clothes although i will admit that some types of material feel more feminine than others due to movement and feel which is what i think makes a woman feminine, it is the movement of their hands and arms the way their fingers move and the way they walk it is all like a flowing graceful movement that men just do not have, a bit like tall grass swaying gently in the breeze were as a man is a bit like an oak tree not moving for anything , then there is the voice soft and gentle, i might some times want to be a woman but there is no way i could ever be feminine like that it is unique to FAB,
who do i like well i can`t think of any that you would know but they would be a bit like Cher when she was real ( not plastic) Mini Driver and Morticia from the Adams family.
If i could express this femininity in any way i would try with the hands first as it is this movement that has me spell bound .
Just thought that i would try and explain why i think it has very little to do with the clothes, doe`s a woman loose her femininity if she has very little clothes on (and i am not trying to be rude )or you could put a feminine woman in an old sack bag and she will still be feminine, i think that some times style can be mistaken for femininity the two are not the same


joanne :o

[KayR]

I always think of myself as a male. Whilst I don't try and effect a female "style" I accept - and enjoy the fact that I can't suddenly leap out of the chair when I'm wearing high heels and a fitted dress. I also try and walk in a more "elegant" (?) way when dressed - not hitching my leg up on the spindle of a bar stool, for example.
There is a young lady presenter here on BBC-UK television called Christine Blakeley. The show is at 7.00pm GMT Mon-Fri. Not only is she gorgeous looking, but she seems to exude femininity. She also wears some lovely clothes, and clearly loves high heels!

[JessieB]

In other words... is it really that you wish to present as a woman or that you are defining your own image of feminine? ... What exactly do you consider feminine? ... Where did you develop this idea? ... Is there a particular individual who personified femininity for you?You pose some of the most interesting questions I've seen here in a long time. This ought to develop into a great thread. For starters, I'd like to tackle one set of your questions that seem to be interrelated.

First, I think most of us feel like we need to go to great lengths in our dressing in order to overcome our masculine features. While some might be satisfied with something more akin to androgyny, the majority want to present as decidedly feminine, which requires a very thorough transformation, including very feminine clothing. Even then we barely pull it off, but to the extent we do, we love the trans-formative effect on our own appearance and the way we feel.

I think most CDers are also projecting what they find attractive about women, at least physically. We obviously love the female physique and appearance (even the gay CDs). We love your curvy body and your soft features and your sexiness, and we try as best we can to emulate that which we love. We are also communicating how much we love the way women's clothing (and hair and makeup and etc) plays up your beauty and sex appeal. Men are very visual creatures, so naturally we love styles that are revealing and flattering of the feminine form, and that accentuate the difference between the genders. This has always been and always will be true.

This of course begs the question, as you have touched upon, of what shapes our notion(s) of what constitutes feminine allure. To a great extent, our cultures shape our perceptions. For example, those of us of a certain age grew up around women who were extremely feminine in the way they dressed and behaved, so it's only natural for us to relate to such styles. Whether it was pencil skirts or petticoats or mini skirts or hot pants or hiphuggers, we tend to relate viscerally to the styles that were in vogue as we came of age and started chasing girls. (Some of us "outgrow" that as we age, some of us don't.)

I think, too, that individuals can influence us very strongly. It might be a celebrity or a sex symbol or a person from our own lives. The mini-skirted girls of my high school and college days forever burned that preference into my brain and libido. And, I often notice that a woman in my life later on profoundly influenced my perception of "female" -- both in appearance and behavior -- and shaped to some degree my own self-perception as a CD.

And as I've touched on here and there, there is the undeniable sexuality of dressing. CDing doesn't always have to be about sex, but that's how most of us got started and for most of us there will always be an element of sexuality about dressing. Not only do we find a woman dressed femininely very stimulating, we have discovered how good it feels to actually wear those sort of clothes. It's just so much more sensuous than guy clothes, and we love the way it makes our legs or whatever look. It's a turn-on to see, and a turn-on to experience.

[Danielle1960]

I've been wondering for a few years now, and I think we consider femme the things that our gg doesn't provide?
After all women are the heroes of the silver screen and men are the bumbling idiots that can't do it if the heroine doesn't help. So after all these years we might need to ask are we pushing the envelope of femme development in ourselves because we have heroes? That are women?
Interesting thought. I find for me though, it is a way to leave the complex, logical, stressful, and back biting world of competition, that I'm required to work in. So for me it is the quite time that I allow me to swirl in emotional thoughts that man can't by him self.

[TGMarla]

Tough question for those of us that are not inherently feminine. I'm plenty feminine when I'm dressed, I guess, but otherwise, I'm just an average guy. I have guy pursuits, guy interests, and guy mannerisms. But I also love to peruse women's clothing and wear pretty and feminine clothing. When dressed, many of the guy interests fade a bit, and my more feminine interests come to the forefront. Mind you, this still doesn't lower itself to the level of watching the Lifetime Channel. I walk differently, my arms and hand gestures become more like those of a woman, and they do this almost unconciously. I really don't obsess about attaining the feminine ideal for myself. I am who and what I am, and I'm not real dissatisfied with that. Since I have no plans at present to take Marla to the general public, I care little just how feminine I am at any given time. I'll let my pics and my posts speak for themselves.

As for an individual who personifies femininity to me, I'll point to Jaqueline Smith, who played Kelly (I think) in the original Charlie's Angels television show. Bad show, but she was the epitome of a lovely, feminine lady to me.

Much of my desire to emulate women has to do with the clothing and the appearance. The rest of it eminates from that. I have a serious clothing monkey on my back, and I like to indulge in it and feed the monkey as often as possible without crippling my life in general too much. So I'm not a real feminine guy, but I am a rather feminine crossdresser, if that makes any sense.

[DemonicDaughter]

Some truly amazing answers! I think a lot of women, even those that fully accept and support cding, would find this interesting.

To us GGs, we weren't taught to be feminine with someone saying "this is feminine, that is feminine". We were merely emulating the women in our lives.

As a woman who grew up primarily with men, I found that being feminine was, in essence, being sensual. The more sensual the movements, tone of voice, actions, etc. the more feminine one seemed to appear. I was curious if this held true for cders. Now, I firmly believe that there is a HUGE difference in something being sensual and something being sexual. Because of this, I could understand cding for both reasons. Sensuality often leads to sexuality and thus the fetish side of cding. But even just the sensuality has enough appeal all on its own.

I happen to love the sensuality of corsets, silks, lace and satin. I could understand anybody's obsession with them.

Answers like all of yours sort of helps a GG understand that you aren't looking so much to replace a woman in your life, but more simply making your life more soothing. I like that idea. :)

[KayR]

Yes, I think I understand your point of view. I retain my maleness, as mentioned above, but I do notice that many of my contemporaries adopt a "female" personna once dressed. At the last years Northern Concord weekend, I was shocked to be kissed on the cheek by another CDer who I hadn't seen for a year. I didnt like it (bloke attitude), but he/she must have thought it appropriate whilst in female mode.
For my part, I would feel phoney if I adopted a female level of tactile response. I am naturally a "touchy-feely" person, but within male boundaries. I remain so when dressed. Yet, I envy the clearly open and natural level of physical contact and response that women convey. It is a normal thing for women to operate on this level, I feel. However, culture and social norms will often dictate just exactly how far males can go. When I first went to Turkey, for example, I was surprised to see Turkish men openly embrace each other, and other Turkish men walking hand-in-hand in broad daylight. Not because they were having any sort of gender crsis, but because their culture sees nothing wrong in their behaving in this manner.

[Wendy me]

[QUOTE=DemonicDaughter;1289798]A recent discussion provoked this question in my head and its been rambling around in there for a few day

In other words... is it really that you wish to present as a woman or that you are defining your own image of feminine?

i try just to be me and i don't think there is a true "image of feminine" as a women can be feminine all done up to the 9's or a mom at home with the kids in sweats .... to me it's being comfy in what your wearing as well as who you are........

What exactly do you consider feminine?

confidence just being comfy in your own skin...........



Where did you develop this idea?


lol a life lesson lol.......



Is there a particular individual who personified femininity for you? (Though using a famous person is fine but I would like you to offer the role they played that made them appear feminine to you.)


like i said it could be someone dressed all decked out or in sweats hair a mess and just have that look that they are cofedent..........

Do you express this femininity in ways other than clothing? If yes, how so? If no, why?


i like to think i do when i dress i tend to wear and be someone that i am comfy being and not try to "play a part"......




Would/do you date a partner that is more/less/equally as feminine as you? Do you prefer them more or less feminine? How do you feel they could be more/less feminine?

my wife is feminine but not overly girlie ....... what i might like her to wear and what she likes might differ some ... i love her so i accept her choices..........

[christync]

A recent discussion provoked this question in my head and its been rambling around in there for a few days.

Seems to me we have a lot of posts on here regarding what GGs wear and do in comparison to CDers. Now I find it funny that many CDers state they love being "girly" yet threads about GGs not being feminine spring up often. This sort of leads to the idea of what exactly do some of these posters consider "feminine" and where do these ideas develop. If they don't consider women being feminine, they why are they presenting as one?

In other words... is it really that you wish to present as a woman or that you are defining your own image of feminine?

What exactly do you consider feminine?

Where did you develop this idea?

Is there a particular individual who personified femininity for you? (Though using a famous person is fine but I would like you to offer the role they played that made them appear feminine to you.)

Do you express this femininity in ways other than clothing? If yes, how so? If no, why?

Would/do you date a partner that is more/less/equally as feminine as you? Do you prefer them more or less feminine? How do you feel they could be more/less feminine?

*DISCLAIMER: These questions are NOT directed to any one thread nor individual. They are NOT meant to imply anything other than a genuine question with the desire to understand how others feel. I DON'T WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU FIND WRONG WITH ANY PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE! I want to hear an individual and personal account of femininity. THAT'S IT!

I think that femininity is different things to different people, the same as crossdressing. My dressing in the '70's when I was in my 20s was, to a somewhat extent sexual. Not so much anymore. In fact, I find it better when it is not, but just a part of my lifestyle. Even still, that is so subjective. Just spending my evenings as a T-Girl is very satisfying. I enjoy sitting outside and reading the newspaper and noticing how I look in my peripheral vision and identifying myself with the feminine gender. Gender is not black and white.

Chris

[TGMarla]

I firmly believe that there is a HUGE difference in something being sensual and something being sexual......Sensuality often leads to sexuality...... But even just the sensuality has enough appeal all on its own.
Just hit the nail on the head right there, DD. The two are closely related. I have always found many of the things women wear to be very sensual, and that has always attracted me sexually. I find it equally, if not more, sensual to dress myself this way as well. I find the whole process very sensual, and well...one thing can lead to another, as they say. It's not hard to connect the dots, is it?

[CharleneCD]

To us GGs, we weren't taught to be feminine with someone saying "this is feminine, that is feminine". We were merely emulating the women in our lives.

As a woman who grew up primarily with men, I found that being feminine was, in essence, being sensual. The more sensual the movements, tone of voice, actions, etc. the more feminine one seemed to appear. .

Great question DD, You have asked some good ones lately.

For me femininity is much more than dressing. Just watching two tables, one with men and one with women you can get a good idea of the differences. This is a good example of when you say we emulate what we see in our own sex. Women interact so much more differently than men. You will never see men hugging each other and touching like women do.

Although I think there is more to it. The generalized attitude of compasion and caring is much more prevalent in women. Women nurture, men just support or teach.

Lastly I see your point with sensuality. Women just move better than men. I got a good example of this when out dancing enfemme. Watching myself dancing in a mirror just looked wrong. The movements just werent there for me. I could have had a perfect look, but still been clocked as soon as anyone saw me dancing. LOL

[MJ]

In other words...A) is it really that you wish to present as a woman or B)that you are defining your own image of feminine?

i will try to answer the questions ----part a) i do wish to present myself as a woman but growing up and being socialized as a man makes this very hard ..
B) i am trying to re create myself in my own image of what i perceive a typical woman is ..
This is hard to do filtering out the guy stuff , and trying to be me ..


What exactly do you consider feminine?

for me the typical look you see in most books i would very much like to be very thin like most models ..it helps with my height ..i bought in to the thin is in


Where did you develop this idea?

mostly from the media i don't need to spell it out it's everywhere


Is there a particular individual who personified femininity for you? (Though using a famous person is fine but I would like you to offer the role they played that made them appear feminine to you.)

Angelina Jolie i find very feminine there are many movies but i guess my favorites are tomb raider and life or something like it .. this is tough to answer but i find her sexy .. and a loving caring woman


Do you express this femininity in ways other than clothing? If yes, how so? If no, why?


yes well i try to incorporate femininity in my actions. but i find this difficult without a partner to help ..


Would/do you date a partner that is more/less/equally as feminine as you? Do you prefer them more or less feminine? How do you feel they could be more/less feminine?

I would love to date a partner that is more or equal to me . there is nothing wrong with a girlie ..girl , and yes being honest up front ensures a relationship that lasts .. i hope

*DISCLAIMER: i am being honest here do not get upset due to my poor image of myself or woman in general i am stereo typical person

[LilSissyStevie]

What exactly do you consider feminine?

I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. (some smart guy said that about something once.)

Actually, it might have something to do with this:

What are little girls made of?

What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice,
And everything nice,
That's what little girls are made of.

That's what formed my concept of femininity.

[Nicole Erin]

Honestly, I don't really know what is considered "masculine" or "feminine".
Gender barriers keep falling.

If I could wear my "feminine" clothes all the time I would.
I am me, I gave up trying to be Mr manly man a while back, it is just too much work.

[SarahLynn]

I have seen several answers here which point to the same source, and while they all agree on the point that it is a woman who is the object of their femininity i think they do not want to point to the greatest influance in their lives. That one woman who was there for them when they needed clean dipers, their hair combed for school, their toe nails clipped before getting new socks, a bath and washing behind the ears when they were too young to do it themselves. I point to our mothers or mother figures. An aunt, elder sister, next door neighbour, grandmother, etc. It is this person, for most of us, who had the greatest influance in whom we chose to emulate when dressing.

Now you may say it is some screen idle, but in truth i think it is a combination of that person and the lady previously mentioned. It will show in your style, your carriage, your presentation. My reasoning for this is to look at the styles we chose to wear.

For those who grew up in the fifties and sixties its hose and garters and girdles, dress suits and pencil skirts. For sixties and seventies it's pantyhose, and short skirts and tieback (or tie front) blouse, loose wear with lots of freedom. For the seventies and eighties its skorts and flashy blouses, not a lot of makeup but when it is worn it is understated. And so on.

And i think we want to make that person proud of us in our dressing. We want her to see us as an extention of herself. Her choices in clothes. Her styles. Her fashion sense. And i think we do this very well.

Naturally we "moved on" in style but were did we start. We started with Her. I like to think we have/had a good base for our own growth.

As for dating or aquireing a mate I think we all source to the person who was the greatest influance on our dressing. A girl just like mum, or mum figure. I know a man who so hated his father he insisted he'd never be like him. Wrong. He even married a lady just like his mother. I had to laugh to my self about that one.

SarahLynn

[deja true]

Seems to me we have a lot of posts on here regarding what GGs wear and do in comparison to CDers. Now I find it funny that many CDers state they love being "girly" yet threads about GGs not being feminine spring up often. This sort of leads to the idea of what exactly do some of these posters consider "feminine" and where do these ideas develop. If they don't consider women being feminine, they why are they presenting as one?

The desire to be 'girly' is an interesting one to me, too. Maybe we differ in definitions, but I really don't want to be 'girly'. I want to be 'womanly'. Mature and wise in thinking and calm and self-controlled in demeanor. Not quite accesible but sensuous ( as opposed to sexy) and inviting in appearance...

Where do these ideas come from? I think for most of us, our ideal is not so much that of any particular woman, but a combination of the traits we 've seen in our lives, whether in real life or in movies or in reading... Only a few have pointed to a particular woman that they view as an ideal. Our ideal woman seems to be many women.

The problem here, is that our exemplars are chosen for a single trait, a look, a movement, an attitude seen in an interview, a wardrobe choice. We look for and appropriate the best, but we ignore the rest. So the persona we invest ourselves in isn't really anything much like a real woman, but an iconic woman that represents the very best traits that we can imagine. We are indeed defining our own image of the feminine ideal.

It's no wonder that so many of us beat ourselves up and obsess so much about the perfection of presentation. But it's also fortunate that many of us also mature in our thinking, just as a girly, giggly teenager can ultimately mature into a self confident woman. We 'graduate' from obsessing over clothes and how attractive we are in them, to being comfortable with who we are no matter how dressed.

If we reach this 'comfortable' stage, we often give up on playing that ultra masculine role that so many of us have been playing for years. Notice how many who post regularly spend as much of their free time en femme as they can, how many express the desire to live 24/7 if they possibly could.

Feminine thinking, or our impression of feminine thinking, takes its place in our personalities. We don't just look at women, we analyze them, we judge their taste and presentation. We look appraisingly at clothes and jewelry and ads.

And yes, if we accept ourselves, we often expess our femininity in other ways. Physically by underdressing or hidden painted nails or tattoos or replacing our drab clothes with subtly feminine clothes. We adopt movements and gestures of a more feminine character. Or we communicate with others as women, not men.

I'm maturing. I can feel myself losing the fetishistic exhiliration of dressing, the immediate and demanding excitement of slipping my feet into heels or pulling the zipper up my back. It was fast. It was furious. And it always ended in guilt.

But now, as many here talk about, I'm comforted by my clothes. Soothed at the touch of soothing silk. Calmed by the aura of grace that's implicit in lace and color and floral scents. My dressing now lasts hours and always ends in regret and melancholy when I have to shed deja's outward finery. But there is no guilt any more. Only the sweet sad realization that I can't be all of me for another little while.

[Billijo49504]

Today I passed out over 600 pieces of candy, mostly to women. As samples in a grocery store. So I've seen many women. So quite knocking yourself out, and enjoy being a gurl. As I've said, if you got bumps on your chest and not too much of a mustache, you can probably pass for a women, if you can live the life....BJ

[Rachel Morley]

What exactly do you consider feminine?
Hi DD,

I guess a lot of guys might naturally think that if they do something different and "non regular" (like wear women's clothes) then they must being doing something feminine (?). I guess that's a fair comment on the surface.

But being or feeling feminine is so much more than that. I think being feminine is more to do with not being what is perceived to be masculine. Being feminine can mean different things in different cultures of the world too. In the US or UK or the western world as whole, it means having and displaying those characteristics that are traditionally perceived to be non manly and therefore .... determined as feminine.

To me, being feminine is naturally showing: Kindness, sympathy, gentleness, patience, empathy, nurturing, motherly, being able to openly express one's emotions, being caring, being a good listener etc, etc.

However, femininity (to me) is also about strength, passion, determination, tenacity, and the ability to handle pain! I imagine most women need all of these to be able to go through pregnancy and child birth.

I also think that for CDers like me, "feeling feminine" is very important.

It might be asked, because I know that these clothes are made for women, and I feel different when I wear them, does this mean the clothes must be "making me feminine?" No. They don't make me feminine, but they do make me feel pretty, and feeling pretty makes me feel less manly. Feeling less manly (for me anyway) makes me feel happier. Expressing my femininity makes me feel relaxed, happy, and fulfilled.

So what I'm saying is by wearing the clothes, it puts me in a different mind-set. A mind-set that influences certain personality traits in me and (in my mind at least) makes me feel better about myself whilst nurturing behavior that I think suits me and also makes me a better person.

[RockerTerri]

This is one of those questions that is pretty hard to answer, as its hard to explain emotional response in words. I agree with the postings on sensuality, but i think it is far and away past anything tactile. A feminine trait is in doing things simply because you want to; its pretty, feels nice, makes you happy, sounds nice, smells good, etc. The "masculine" mold seems to be in logic and practicality, and being concerned more with gain or usefulness than simply enjoyment of the moment.

It is beyond physical. Feminine expression, through art, music, conversation, or interaction with other people is driven often by what feels good, not by what is prudent. Whether it feels good for themselves, or others, or for no one in particular, simply because you want to.

Basically, the freedom to do something because you want to do it, because its something that pleases you, or is new, or looks fun, or is soothing. Im not saying that some men dont find this level of personal contentment, but most men (not the ones on this forum) would not wear a corset, simply because they like how it felt or looked, and it isnt "practical" to buy something that has no real purpose, other than how it feels or looks?

Being feminine also means a level of self confidence that dosent need any sort of concrete, tangible "things" to keep it intact. Reading a book, looking at a tree, wearing a new pair of shoes, is its own reward, it dosent require someone else to quantify its value with compliments or praise...or money. (though, no one, man or woman, minds acknowledgement of their choices. Men just seem a bit more hung up on it)

Maybe being feminine means being more primal than men, overall, if that makes sense?

Terri

[Holly]

DD, you're making my head hurt! What is femininity to me? Discovering a new mascara that makes my pitiful lashes "pop." Feeling satisfied finding that perfect pair of shoes. Applying makeup to my own face. Walking with grace and poise. Comforting a hurting soul. Sharing the excitement of losing one pound of weight. Having a door held open for me. Okay, admittedly, these are all outward manifestations of something going on within. Femininity is a stirring from within. It's a freedom from being reserved and metered in your responses.

Many years ago I went to a transformation service and had a makeover done. This was certainly not the first time I had done this. There was the sensuality of the silk blouse I was wearing, the companionship of the artist doing the transformation, the aroma of the cosmetics, maybe the stars were all in proper alignment, I don't really know. But when I was turned around, and I looked into the mirror, I SAW the girl for the very first time! It wans't the face (although it was pretty:battingeyelashes:), it wasn't the clothes (although they felt wonderful). It was the EYES... I actually SAW her in my eyes! It was a spiritual awakening of something that had been going on for so long, that I was struggling to find with cloth and cosmetics. In that one moment, my life changed forever. The macho, male, construction worker attitude melted away. I became vulnerable and as such acquired the ability to feel for the first time in my life.

I give credit to two people for modeling femininity to me. First and foremost, my wonderful wife. Living with her for over 39 years has given me ample opportunity to see femininity in action... her response to me as a man, the tenderness and nurturing to our children, the strength of character as a business woman, a wife, a mother, a friend. She is an incredible partner and I am so fortunate to have gotten it right the first time.

The second person is Amy, the makeup artist I mentioned above. She is my "girl mom." I think she glimpsed my, "girl inside" before I ever saw her. She put her skill to work so that I could see her as well. Her acceptance and encouragement forever changed me in a most positive and wonderful way.

DD, I don't know if I answered your original question or not. Undeniably there are the physical trappings of femininity. And I willing and joyfully profess my love for them all. But more importantly, there is the emotional and spiritual aspect of femininity. If for the rest of my life, I never wear another pair of panties or slip my feet into another pair of heels, I will forever enjoy experiencing femininity to its fullest.

[DemonicDaughter]

DD, I don't know if I answered your original question or not. Undeniably there are the physical trappings of femininity. And I willing and joyfully profess my love for them all. But more importantly, there is the emotional and spiritual aspect of femininity. If for the rest of my life, I never wear another pair of panties or slip my feet into another pair of heels, I will forever enjoy experiencing femininity to its fullest.

No, you got it completely! :love:

[Fab Karen]

To us GGs, we weren't taught to be feminine with someone saying "this is feminine, that is feminine". We were merely emulating the women in our lives.


Or sometimes women you find interesting. Dolly Parton has said ( paraphrasing ) "My role model growing up was this local woman who I later discovered was the local *****- I didn't know that, I just thought her look was pretty."

[DemonicDaughter]

Or sometimes women you find interesting. Dolly Parton has said ( paraphrasing ) "My role model growing up was this local woman who I later discovered was the local *****- I didn't know that, I just thought her look was pretty."

Mimicking a look isn't exactly what I meant. We grow up learning about how to be "ladies" so-to-speak from the women around us as children. Teachers, mothers, sisters, cousins, etc. Our images of "femininity" are varied and, often inadvertently, cultivated by our peers. So a GG's understanding of femininity and how we learned it, varies from a CDers unless their peer group was as primarily female as ours.

In my case, though I grew up in a predominantly male household, those women who influenced me as a child were profoundly feminine and strong. To me, femininity is the ability to be strong and still relatively "lady like" (i.e. not having to resort to lesser means for like effects). So I realize that I am quite masculine and yet feminine at the same time.

When I read on here about how clothing makes you feel feminine, I think "wow... clothing makes you feminine?" Of course it doesn't. Its the idea presented behind it and the indication alone with it. That's what most femininity is. Its just interesting to read what were primary influences for it.

And here's a strange comment made by someone to me... they pointed out how many answers on here sounded as if femininity was positive yet masculinity was almost seen as a negative in retrospect. What do you gurls think? Do you see "masculine" traits as a negative thing on any degree?

[Joanne f]

And here's a strange comment made by someone to me... they pointed out how many answers on here sounded as if femininity was positive yet masculinity was almost seen as a negative in retrospect. What do you gurls think? Do you see "masculine" traits as a negative thing on any degree?[/B]

I know that i am putting my head on the block now as i have to agree with you that femininity has nothing to do with cloths, i could wear the most feminine clothes you could think of , yes it might make me feel feminine but i would still not be feminine the the most feminine person you could think of could wear old rags and she would be still feminine so working on that i do not see how it can be "the clothes" it is an Essenes that is much deeper than what you wear .
And as far as positive and negative in male or female i do not see how that would work ether , i do not see how it would work in those terms but if i had to put it that way i would say that it would be the same in ether gender other wise we would not be here as a race of humans .

joanne :heehee:

[Kate Simmons]

Not at all DD. The truely balanced person exhibits both masculine and feminine qualities and utilizes them in a positive way.:)

[Stormgirl]

Not at all DD. The truely balanced person exhibits both masculine and feminine qualities and utilizes them in a positive way.:)

What she said ^ :thumbsup:

[deja true]

"Masculine traits"?

Well...if you mean physical traits, like bigness or hairyness or narrow hips or big hands and feet then the answer is probably a resounding yes!

But if you mean acculturated psychological traits, the answer is "mas o menos", more or less.

We hate the loudness, the gruffness, the boasting that comes with typical 'macho' behaviour.

We hate the 'failure to read directions' or to take advice that are stereotypical male traits.

We hate the testosterone fueled competitive spirt that makes us do foolish and dangerous things on a dare.

We hate that 'real men' are always on the prowl for pussy.

But we love the paternal feelings of protectiveness for our loved ones that echo the maternalistic feelings of nurturing. We love the "strong silent types" that also echo the stoic attitudes of long suffering, strong women.

Not all "maleness" is bad. Thats why so many here, especially those with families, attest that they would never give up at least a part of their maleness. Those men have found out how to be the right kind of "man". The kind that are sure of themselves in their masculinity. And the kind that make their women proud of them.

[MJ]

And here's a strange comment made by someone to me... they pointed out how many answers on here sounded as if femininity was positive yet masculinity was almost seen as a negative in retrospect. What do you gurls think? Do you see "masculine" traits as a negative thing on any degree?

From my point of view i feel balance is the key there are limits but i accept myself just as i am both good and bad

[deja true]

It might be fodder for another thread entirely, but we neglect ever speaking of the negative aspects of femininity, too.

To be 100% feminine, does one also have to be a bit catty, whiny, nagging, devious?

Those are the traits we assign to the women who have wronged us.

We have a love/hate relationship with the idea of womanhood. And I tend to think that we avoid talking about that aspect of it. If that's the case, we are fooling ourselves a little bit.



(Jenny Rotten is gonna loooove this one!)

[Jenny Doolittle]

Gosh, I agree about the depth of this topic. Femininity is a feeling to me, like the tingle of the skin you feel whne your slip slides across your freshly shaven leg. Feminenity is how you feel at piece after a long day and now you are home from work relaxing in a hot perfumed tup with candles burning all around. Femineity is shopping and being treated like one of the girls. Femininty is how I feel right now after being able to compose this little discription of what it is to be me.

[Brianna1]

I have read all the posts so far hoping for inspiration...my definition of what is feminine is not an easy one to formulate. In many ways I have often thought of what I want is to distance myself from the actions of some men or not to be associated with them. I am writing of the abuse that seems to be perpetrated mainly by males in it's various forms and also of the criminal acts that predominantly men seem to do. Also I like the way women seem to be able to share on so many different levels to qoute Rachel Morley

To me, being feminine is naturally showing: Kindness, sympathy, gentleness, patience, empathy, nurturing, motherly, being able to openly express one's emotions, being caring, being a good listener etc, etc.
Even though these traits are not exclusively feminine.
Yes, the dressing certainly is sensuous and after wearing 'over-engineered' male clothes and shoes, it is a delight to wear clothes that are more delicate and so wonderfully formed.

[Annie D]

I enjoy dressing in female clothing, pure and simple. I am a casual dresser by nature but my attire must be fashionable, clean and stylish. My feminism starts and stops with my feeling attractive to myself when I look at myself in the mirror, whether I only underdress or put on something a little more feminine.

Although, like many of us, I must remain closeted, I do venture out on occasion wearing sandals, capris, feminine top, earrings and lipstick. No one mistakes me as a female in my little excursions: the gas station, the donut shop, the nail salon and the fast food drive up.

I have become tattooed with some beautiful feminine colors and designs, I have laid out in the sun and gotten some feminine tan lines and they have all been noticed by medical personnel during examinations. I have not tried to conceal anything and have become more and more relaxed in my feminism.

Granted, I consider all of these people to be strangers and someone who I may not encounter everyday and I have not found in necessary to explain my sexuality but I have had the desire to become more open in my feminism.

The times when I have tried to present myself as totally a woman are the times when I am with another group of crossdressers and I try to save ourselves any public embarrassment by outing the group by not presenting a total female appearance.

My dressing is for me, the feelings that I have when I feel pretty and soft and non-threatening. When I experience these feelings, I feel that I have achieved true femininity and it is meaningful for me.

[Annie D]

I apologize as I have been away from the site and responded to the initial thread and then read backwards the replies.

I have a daughter, as many of you do as well, and I try to instill in her some of the "male characteristics" that I think will make her more successful as she becomes a mature person and enters adulthood.

I have a son, as many of you do as well, and I try to instill in him some of the "female characteristics" that I think will make him more successful as he becomes a mature person and enters adulthood.

I am sure that I will leave out many, many characteristic by listing but I want my daughter to be confident in herself, that she is equal (not better nor worse) than every person she meets in her lifetime; that she is not afraid to take risks (behold the turtle only makes progress when she sticks her neck out); that she takes responsibility for her own decisions and actions and that she becomes equally adept in leadership or as a member of the group.

I am sure that I will leave out many, many characteristics but I want my son to be more patient, more understanding, more compassionate, be more adaptable to change and show others around him that he loves them and tell them everyday. Does this sound like a confession?

Personally, for me, extremes are not a good thing. I am uncomfortable with people who are extremely one way of another whether it be extremely masculine or extremely feminine. To be the best person that we can possibly be, we must be a little part of everyone we meet.

[Joanne f]

I think that it is a bit unfair to say that a lot of masculine thing can be seen as negative do i have to remind you that there are people on there that want to be masculine are you saying they have to be come negative to achieve that , you have the two ends of the spectrum, very masculine to very feminine and then everything in between none of it being positive or negative, you do not need to be out of balance to be anywhere on that scale , and i will still say that femininity comes from the inside, but the clothes can act like a placebo they have made you believe that you are feminine which yes that is a good thing because it makes you feel good about your self.
Have you ever seen a male and said to yourself he looks feminine, well he might hate it and no matter what he doe`s he will not be able to loose it because it is in he a part of him no matter what he wears or doe`s , the same can work for a masculine female , it comes from your inner body your life spirit not your Brian as that can be altered and controlled.


ok so i am mad :devil::D:doh:


joanne

[Claire3]

When im dressed,im feminine,when not i can be masculine or wishing i was Claire

[RockerTerri]

In my long and rambling earlier post, my intended message was there, but buried pretty deep. I have thought about this topic quite a bit over the last couple days, and (to me anyway) its pretty simple.

Being feminine to me means not only emulating the behaviours that GGs have, be they clothes, makeup, whatever, but also enjoying those behaviours for the same reason GGs do...they simply feel good.
Doing these things dosent mean you arent masculine, men also do things for the enjoyment. The dividing line between fem. and mas. just seems to be decided by everyone around us, we are just along for the ride.

Knew what i wanted to say, but it took reading a similar post in a different section of this forum to help sort that all out. Kudos to ZenFrost, for using masculinity to help me define femininity, for myself at least.

Terri

[DemonicDaughter]

I think that it is a bit unfair to say that a lot of masculine thing can be seen as negative...

I personally don't see "masculine" as a negative. I myself am both feminine and masculine, though my outward appearance is very feminine (mind you, in this respect I think I identify most with CDers as it is a balance of both traits I strive for).

BUT!

Sometimes when we post, we focus on a particular subject as a positive and thus reflecting the opposite almost as a negative without directly stating so. I hadn't really thought about that much until I started this thread and had it pointed out to me.

This was in no way a reflection on those that are FTM. I myself, have dressed as a man on many occasions and have several FTM friends. It was really just an observation that sparked a new question for those that post about loving to be feminine.

What I love about the responses so far is NONE of them have yet to label "feminine" as a specific style nor action. Merely a feeling or a desire to feel a certain way.

I would love to hear a few GG's responses on this as well.

[TGMarla]

Masculinity is not a negative thing. There are a lot of us here who are somewhat obsessed with the feminine aspect, to the detriment of any masculine traits they may have. There are some here who really should have been born female, as their masculine identity has brought them nothing but misery. They so obsess with being feminine, they cannot enjoy the lives they already have.

But Salandra is right. In order to achieve any happiness in any of this, one needs to strike a balance, and embrace both aspects of their lives. Life force is made up of both the masculine and the feminine, and one cannot exist in a vacuum, without the other. Just as good cannot be defined without the existence of evil, the feminine cannot exist without the presence of the masculine. Both have their positives and negatives. Both provide for a great deal of fun and amusement as well.

I advocate embracing both.

[Satrana]

I think the easiest way to understand how a MTF CD understands femininity is to understand that femininty represents the opposite of masculinity. Femininity is everything that masculinity is not, it is everything that is taboo for men to do.

Tracing this back to its roots, I believe that since men occupied and vied for positions of power, displaying any emotion that could be manipulated as a weakness was rejected as a basis for masculinity. So all caring, nurturing, sensitive feelings were neutered. However families and society at large need these values to stay together, they are the social glue which was left to women to express. They are not weak emotions but very strong ones but because they can be manipulated, men were taught to avoid them. Men need to unlearn this destructive aspect of male conditioning.

As far as the aesthetics go, women have looks, mannerisms and grace that are simply absent from male behavior. Men are not taught about presentation and so are rough and ready which makes female mannerisms mystical to us. It is like being allured by the sparkle from a cut and polished diamond while men are like lumps of coal. Over the centuries these looks and mannerisms have been fine tuned into feminine sensuality which men are drawn to like bears to honey. many cultures developed this idea as a specific skill or art form like the Geisha.

Everyone wants for themselves things which they find attractive. CD men want female sensuality so we step over the taboo line drawn in the sand and take it for ourselves. Fear of taboo and social stigmatization is the only thing which holds other men back from doing this.

You are correct in pointing out that CDs typically view masculinity as being negative. The allure of the dream that they are actually women involves them undertaking male bashing as part of their validation process. There are certainly some aspects of men which are unpleasant but that is true of women as well. CDs don't take on the negative feminine values because we have the luxury to choose the traits we want to explore but we should also focus on developing our positive masculine qualities at the same time.

Then again we don't come here this specific forum to express our masculine traits but to enjoy our feminine ones.

[jessbcuzz]

True femininity? To me that means having everything, and I mean everything that a true genetic women goes through. I am not talking about the clothes, manners, etc, that has been stated on in this thread. True femininity to me means dealing with PMS, being pregnant, the emotion of the "clock ticking" if you can't have a child, osteoporosis, checking yourself each month for breast, cervical caner (and all of the other cancers a women has to worry about). To take it a step further, having to worry with all of the medical problems that are unique to a women.

[Fab Karen]

Our images of "femininity" are varied and, often inadvertently, cultivated by our peers. So a GG's understanding of femininity and how we learned it, varies from a CDers unless their peer group was as primarily female as ours.
***
Primarily female? It would depend I guess on your definition of peer group ( or your unique circumstances). People you go to school with in example are a peer group.

When I read on here about how clothing makes you feel feminine, I think "wow... clothing makes you feminine?" Of course it doesn't.
***
Right. It is outward expression, an enhancement. It doesn't cause the feeling.

And here's a strange comment made by someone to me... they pointed out how many answers on here sounded as if femininity was positive yet masculinity was almost seen as a negative in retrospect. What do you gurls think? Do you see "masculine" traits as a negative thing on any degree?
Calling traits "masculine" or "feminine" is a negative to me. Humans have good & bad potential traits that are not defined by what your birth gender is.

[Gisele]

Of course I was never taught how to be fem. It was a trial and error thing for me. I did however learn by living with my mother after the divorce. I was young and my mother was never shy about dressing in front of me. I got to see her put on her things and watcher her do her makeup alot. I always wanted to be like her.

When I first tried on my cousins panties at the age of 11, it was all over for me. I was hooked! I did love the feeling of the silk. I did get to try on dresses and nightgowns after that. That is when I knew something was wrong with me or something was very right.

Now that I am in my 40's I know the pleasure of how a woman feels being all dressed up and feeling sexy. It is the best feeling in the world. I can't get enough of it now.

Do I want to be a woman? Yes, but I will never get the operation nor take hormones to be one. Maybe if I was a preteen and had the blessing of my parents and the know how, I would indeed do the transformation!

I am sad that I will never really get the oppertunity to be a real woman. I can only enjoy being the next best thing.

So, in short I will never know the true feeling of femininity but only hope I can grasp some kind of a close 2nd.

[jessielee]

its so tricky and sad how so much is perceived and accepted as true in gender stereotypes.
yet, because of them, what fun it is to see a gg all maled out! in a sexy way, for me. and how shocked and turned off they'd be to see me all girled out.
call me a weirdo, but i see women as female people, living in the real world rather than trapped in it. (like i fel, mismatched) thus, they wear functional fashion, even if the function may be flirtatiousness or pragmatic, maybe both at once!
clothing and gender expression for the every day world...food for me to ponder.
around here, so many girls are tomboys with the secret transformational ability up their relatively smaller sleeves to dress up for special occaisions!
as can i. just not how i'd like to.
don't believe femininity is an outward thing, much as its perceived to be.
desire to be the best, most compassionate human i can be.
sincerely.
and for now, gonna tie my own bow tie and put on the cuff links, for the special occaisions, when i wish i were in a dress. and be inwardly as feminine as i can stand,
all the while in disguise...
fooling them all.
jessie

[Valeria]

True femininity? To me that means having everything, and I mean everything that a true genetic women goes through. I am not talking about the clothes, manners, etc, that has been stated on in this thread. True femininity to me means dealing with PMS, being pregnant, the emotion of the "clock ticking" if you can't have a child, osteoporosis, checking yourself each month for breast, cervical caner (and all of the other cancers a women has to worry about). To take it a step further, having to worry with all of the medical problems that are unique to a women.
So females who don't have XX chromosomes can't be truly feminine? Females who don't suffer from PMS (or who don't even menstruate, for any of a number of reasons? Females who are infertile, or who have no interest in reproducing? Females who never get pregnant? None of these women can be truly feminine?!? :raisedeyebrow:

So to you, the epitomy of true femininity is defined by a female having a fully functional reproductive system and fully utilizing it??

And what do you say to butch lesbians? Shall we tell them that they aren't really masculine if they have functional ovaries and a desire to reproduce?

It may be hard to precisely describe what femininity and masculinity are, but my femininity (or masculinity) isn't defined by my reproductive system. I don't even accept this as a definition of womanhood, and I'm certain that not all women are "feminine" (and I know a number of women that'd be offended if they were called feminine).

Of course, since I'm completely sterile at this point, I suppose I'm just not capable of being feminine or masculine - so maybe I just don't understand... :straightface:

[darla_g]

This always seems to be a recurring theme here. Well this and issues between couples over the CD issue.

[Sarah...]

Oh crikey! I'm going away to think about this one. I started a different answer but none of it made sense. It just feels in-built to me and effortless. Heaven knows I've spent a huge amount of time cultivating a "masculinity" about myself because I thought that's what was required of me. That was hard work for all of these years.

Any number of women over the years have contributed to my development.

Excellent questions DD - I'm off to have a think and see what happens.

Sarah...

[Aurora27]

As a woman who grew up primarily with men, I found that being feminine was, in essence, being sensual. The more sensual the movements, tone of voice, actions, etc. the more feminine one seemed to appear.

I was trying to figure out how to put an answer into words but thats pretty much it. To me being purely sexual has always seemed a bit hollow and vulgar, but sensuality implies a beauty and grace and confidence that I always associate with femininity and vise versa.

I've never really associated femininity with having 'feminine' fabrics on my skin - sure it feels great but true femininity runs much deeper - I don't think its something that can be taught fully and as a male I don't think there is any chance I can ever achieve it.

Man have always fought over women (at least in our recent culture) and I think to a degree femininity is this ability to make men act like idiots.

[jenalex]

True femininity, what does it mean for you?

Nothing much at all really.

I mean "feminine" relates to female and to woman, as "masculine" relates to male and man. But there are infinite ways for a woman to be herself, as there are infinite ways for a man to be himself, even if western society frowns on some of them (as many of us here will know). And that's if we're only talking about a binary gender model.

I prefer "femme" and butch", since they float free of gender essentialism. Femme and butch are performance of gender; self-expression, of feelings, of style, of attitude. If I feel a greater need to cross-dress than usual I might "up my femme"; or maybe I'll feel the other way so that someone might say "you're looking very butch today".

Basically anyone can do butch and femme, irrespective of how their gender is defined. You can have butch transwomen and femme transmen too (though Standards of Care may try to impose the "appropriate" one). They say nothing about your essential gender, so you can forget bothering about it.

Does that make sense to anyone else? :happy:

[deja true]

Nothing much at all really.

I prefer "femme" and butch", since they float free of gender essentialism. Femme and butch are performance of gender; self-expression, of feelings, of style, of attitude. If I feel a greater need to cross-dress than usual I might "up my femme"; or maybe I'll feel the other way so that someone might say "you're looking very butch today".

Does that make sense to anyone else? :happy:

Makes great sense to me, JAT!

And takes all the male/female labelling out of the psychological arguments.

Thanks for that. I'm ready to follow your simpler pilosophy!

Can I subscribe to your newsletter?

[CaptLex]

This always seems to be a recurring theme here.
Just one of several . . . stick around and you'll see what I mean. ;)

[jenalex]

Makes great sense to me, JAT!

And takes all the male/female labelling out of the psychological arguments.

Thanks for that. I'm ready to follow your simpler pilosophy!

Can I subscribe to your newsletter?


sure thing

http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/leseratte.gif

Jen