Defining Masculinity

[CaptLex]

I'm stealing DD's idea - she started a thread in the MtF section about femininity. I can't honestly say what makes femininity or masculinity, so I'm curious . . . how do you define "masculine"? :raisedeyebrow:

The thread is open to all.

[Cai]

I've been sitting here for several minutes, trying to think of an answer.

You've got me stumped. I know there is a difference, but I'm not sure how or why. Everything I can come up with for masculinity has a feminine counterpart, and everything I can come up with for femininity has a masculine counterpart.

[Emily Anderson]

Grunt

[Deborah Jane]

Grunt

Grunt grunt..Belch:thumbsup:

[Kieron Andrew]

Grunt


Grunt grunt..Belch:thumbsup:

:rolleyes: thats helpful to the discussion!:doh:

Im still thinking on it, i keep coming up with the same type of thing as Cai

[CaptLex]

Everything I can come up with for masculinity has a feminine counterpart, and everything I can come up with for femininity has a masculine counterpart.
Exactly! :^5:

C'mon Emily and Deborah, I want real answers. :rolleyes:

[Deborah Jane]

:rolleyes: thats helpful to the discussion!:doh:


I,m sorry Kieron and the rest of you guys:o

I guess to me masculine is what i try to be in an effort to hide "Debs" from the world.
I go boxing in the gym at least once a week, i build and race cars and i sometimes get involved in laddish drinking games!!
Whatever the other lads do i,ve always got to try and be one better to prove i,m a "real" man!!

Maybe i,m missing the point, but no one apart from the members on this forum know,s the real me unless i,ve told them!!

[KrazyKat]

Defined muscle tone, shy mysterious slight smile, open eye contact that has strength behind it and the self awareness to be compassionate when allowed, not forced upon someone.

This is my idea of masculine and can be on any gender, IMHO.

[BadassBabyBrother]

For me it's a sense of being. It's not what I do or how I dress more than it is about the fact that "I am". Masculinity and being a man is so many different things to many different people that I think it's in vain to try and categorize it by saying "this is masculine" and "that is feminine".

[CaptLex]

I guess to me masculine is what i try to be in an effort to hide "Debs" from the world.
I go boxing in the gym at least once a week, i build and race cars and i sometimes get involved in laddish drinking games!!
Whatever the other lads do i,ve always got to try and be one better to prove i,m a "real" man!!
Thanks for explaining the answer, Debs. One question: would you say that a woman who does all those things (boxing, racing cars, drinking games) is masculine? :raisedeyebrow:

[Deborah Jane]

Thanks for explaining the answer, Debs. One question: would you say that a woman who does all those things (boxing, racing cars, drinking games) is masculine? :raisedeyebrow:

Not as such no, but the pure oneupmanship that a lot of guys get involved in is something i,ve never seen in women.
The putting your life on the line just to win a stupid bet is something i,ve only encountered in the "guy circles" i often hang out in.
I maybe wrong, but i,ve never seen women pull some of the stunts guys get up to just to prove a point.
I,ve seen friends end up in hospital just trying to prove they were better than the rest of us!!

[CaptLex]

Not as such no, but the pure oneupmanship that a lot of guys get involved in is something i,ve never seen in women. . . . I,ve seen friends end up in hospital just trying to prove they were better than the rest of us!!
So you're saying it's like a drive to compete and win at all costs? :thinking:

[Deborah Jane]

So you're saying it's like a drive to compete and win at all costs? :thinking:

With some guys..Yes!!
Probably not with all guys, but with some of my friends definatily!!

[KrazyKat]

Deborah, women call that runaway testosterone!!

Look at the new appliances you could share with you family for the cost of repairs to body and needed articles around you.

Learning to be in control for the good of your family(pack) is masculine, IMHO.:thumbsup: Not for some one's fantasy about who is better in some oddity strength at great risks.

Sorry, didn't mean too come across too harsh, so I changed the language a bit, I'm sounding a bit masculine, I think.

[Deborah Jane]

Deborah, women call that testosterone stupidity!!
Not for some one's fantasy about who is better in some oddity strength at great risks.

I agree with what you say Kat, but i,ve been involved in such stupid games myself...I think in my case, trying to deny my "femme" side and proving i was as good, if not better than the rest!!
Not only strength, but speed too, when racing...Some guys try and outdo each other no matter what!! At that moment all that counts is winning/being better than the others!!

[KrazyKat]

In all fairness, Deborah, adrenalin is another hormone that is pretty powerful, too. Racing is a total high, I'm sure.

Many adrenal junkies out here!!
I could be one myself!:eek:

[Kate Simmons]

It's a lot of stuff Lex. Just like femininity, it is intrinsic and most of us have both sets of qualities really and it depends on what we choose to act on when. Personally, I always defined being masculine as the handsome rugged leading man in movies, especially adventure movies where he always proved his salt, although that may be somewhat of a steroetype. Brave, inspiring but witty and vulnerable at the same time. That is someone I can admire and work with. BTW, Indiana Jones comes to mind as a perfect example. I will say the same thing I said in DD's thread though. The real key is to just be ourself and not try to fulfill some kind of image. That is when we are truely free and I greatly admire that in a person.:)

[John]

I'm going to take my usual aproach. 'Masculinity' and 'Femininity' are a colection of norms and expectations exepted by a social grouping as being typical male features and behaviours or typical femail features and behaviours. As with all social constructs they vairy from sociaty to sociaty (i.e. in anchent greece it was considered the hight of sissyness for a man to where trousers, whereas there are easten cominities where being verry big (I beleave the polite turm is voluptuous) is generaly the most atractive size for a woman).

So to condence my vagenes... 'masculinity' having a majority of behavious ect that are considered traditionaly male within you're specific culture.

[CaptLex]

So to condence my vagenes... 'masculinity' having a majority of behavious ect that are considered traditionaly male within you're specific culture.
:eek: John . . . that's the best definition so far. :clap:

[ZenFrost]

Gender, sex, sexuality... all different and all complicated as heck, but let me take a stab at this...

(edit: you know, on second thought, just skip to the end, the last sentence pretty much sums it all up)

Note: I'm going to define society here as the traditional thinking existing within the majority of people in any given culture.

Masculinity and femininity are basically words used to describe aspects of gender and they come from two places. 1. Gender is a social construct, and 2. It has to do with the nature of the human race as a species of animal.

I'll start with #2. Regardless of whatever belief system you subscribe to that describes how humans began (evolution, creation, both, or something else), there are some fundamental aspects of the human race that exist outside of any social constructs and prejudices. One man + one woman = baby. Two men can't make a baby, nor can two women, and even in combinations it still takes one man and one woman to do so.

I know, you're thinking "duh" right? Well bear with me on this because I'm going somewhere.

Likewise, back when people were living in caves, men went hunting and gathering food while the women stayed at home and took care of the children, not because people were sexist, but because of the physiological differences between men and women. Men have more muscle mass and upper body strength than women, and it's hard to hunt when you're pregnant or have a child that depends 100% on you for the food that only you can provide.

Therefore, masculine and feminine are words that describe the aspects of what the men and women do. Hunting was masculine because the men were the one's who did it and child rearing was a feminine thing because it was the women who did it. There obviously had to be some crossover, I don't think men had absolutely no part in the child caring and women no part in the food getting, but for the most part, the roles were set because that's the way the human animal* is.

(*I'm talking pre-civilization here, humans technically are animals, as opposed to plants or something, but 'way back when' it seems easier to compare humans to animals than it is today.)

Now skip ahead some thousands of year to society as it is today (or sometime around now). Here comes the social construct of gender. Men in charge of finances and women in charge of cleaning the house is a far cry from the way things were in those cave times. Secretary being a woman's job and businessman being a man's job... where does that fit in with the nature of the species? That's how gender is a social construct.

Over the course of thousands of years, many, many different societies developed ideas about what defines male and female, what men and women do and why they're different. It changes drastically from one time/place to another. Women as servants to men, men as soldiers when women aren't allowed to fight, this list goes on and on, and most of it doesn't fit with what humans really are (ie. women can fight).

So that's why, in my mind, masculinity/femininity has two aspects. 1. The social construct which will vary greatly from one time to another, and in one place or another. It's different in each society, and even within subsets of each society, and 2. The core of human nature, what we'd go back to if civilization and society collapsed. The physiological differences between men and women that make certain things masculine because that's what men do and visa versa.

Then comes a third category. This is where we complicate things. Two men can't make a baby but two men can fall in love. Human's have become so populated that adhering to the traditional roles of man and woman, either socially constructed or naturally existing, doesn't make sense. We've got variety now, and the whole thing about 'going forth and populating the world' is done. The world's populated. Overly, in fact. And with so many people there's bound to be variety and change. Both the social construct and natural order of gender are becoming outdated and unneeded. Men don't have to be the hunters and women the child carers, or men the businessmen and women the secretaries. We can break free of that because society doesn't need it anymore.

BUT, society still follows some notions of gender, it still has masculine and feminine things. In fact, it's become a driving point for most societies and just getting rid of it isn't going to be some easy task, or even necessarily doable at all.

Makeup is feminine and football is masculine, I could provide a dozen arguments as to why they're both not, but that's just the way this society sees them to be and society is what defines masculinity and femininity more than anything.

[C.J.]

Tough question.

*taps into brain power or lack thereof*

I think masculinity, like feminity, is fluid...there is no "set in stone" definition, and as John implied, it's varied between cultures...and I believe definitions can, do, and will change with locations, cultures, and time spans. The definition of masculinity and feminity can't truly be pinpointed because of the ever evolving components...

Also, the definitions vary not only from culture to culture, but from person to person as well. We can only say what our own unique view is on this...and state how we feel...

I think it's all about perception...and even compromise...Definitions are different to each person, but society's general definition of masculinity, feminity, and anything else is really just similarities from a handful of perceptions.

I'm sorry if this makes no sense (feel free to ignore me), I've gotten very little sleep...

(Edit: I was typing as Zen submitted his reply so I didn't see it...It's very good...Just wanted to comment without posting again lol)

- C.J.

[Emily Anderson]

Brilliant Zenfrost! I hope you answered DD's thread on feminine too... Can't wait to see.

[CaptLex]

(edit: you know, on second thought, just skip to the end, the last sentence pretty much sums it all up)
Are you kidding . . . and miss that fascinating explanation? :D No way, dude, that was very well put. :clap:


I think it's all about perception...and even compromise...Definitions are different to each person, but society's general definition of masculinity, feminity, and anything else is really just similarities from a handful of perceptions.

I'm sorry if this makes no sense (feel free to ignore me), I've gotten very little sleep...
Made perfect sense to me, C.J. :thumbsup:


Brilliant Zenfrost! I hope you answered DD's thread on feminine too... Can't wait to see.
I think he answered it for both threads. And it's interesting to see how basically the same question has been answered so differently in the two sections. :thinking:

[ZenFrost]

Brilliant Zenfrost! I hope you answered DD's thread on feminine too... Can't wait to see.

What? That monster of a post wasn't enough? :heehee:

I've actually got something else in progress for DD's thread, provided it's okay that I post there. *doesn't see MtF only written anywhere*

[boi_0h]

wow. good question. i really don't have anything good to add. My idea of being masculine varies usually depending on the crowd i'm with... around guys, masculinity is spitting, bragging about girls...guy things, around girls...it's opening doors, offering arms etc, around mixed company, wing it, lol. I like Zen's answer the best, coz that really is the bottom line.



edit: wow only took 2 years but i got 200...woot.

[Valeria]

Regardless of whatever belief system you subscribe to that describes how humans began (evolution, creation, both, or something else), there are some fundamental aspects of the human race that exist outside of any social constructs and prejudices. One man + one woman = baby. Two men can't make a baby, nor can two women, and even in combinations it still takes one man and one woman to do so.
Seeing as how my life partner and I have had a baby (with me being full time and post-op at the moment of conception), I have a hard time conceding this to be completely true. I will concede that there is generally someone XX and someone XY involved in reproduction. Though the research into creating sperm from female bone marrow is fascinating, as is research into directly fertilizing an ovum using another egg. So give us time. :p

Anyway, perhaps I won't convince people that sometimes, in special cases, two women = baby. Even though in our case, that's exactly what happened. But it's also possible for two men + one woman = baby. It's called chimerism. Essentially, two fertilized eggs or embryos can fuse together, or a fertilized egg can fuse with a second sperm (resulting in a baby with genetic material from two different sperm, which can potentially be from separate males). The embryo then goes about it's business of differentiating - with some body parts based upon one genetic blueprint, and other sections based upon another.

Chimerism (and the somewhat similar condition mosaicism) can lead to fascinating and seemingly non-sensical situations. Such as a few years ago, when a woman was initially determined to not be the genetic mother of a child to whom she had given birth.

Aside from the seeming paradox of potentially having two biological fathers, intersexed chimeras (along with various other types of intersexed conditions, including mosaics) can potentially challenge the validity of binary theories of reproduction. It is theoretically possible (under extremely rare circumstances) for someone assigned female at birth to be capable of providing sperm to fertilize an egg. Life is complex, and allows for few absolutes.

Anyway, this doesn't exactly negate your point. But I get very tired of arguments for 1 man and 1 woman couples based upon reproductive necessity. So I find it hard to let the assertion pass without at least quibbling with it a bit.


Makeup is feminine and football is masculine, I could provide a dozen arguments as to why they're both not, but that's just the way this society sees them to be and society is what defines masculinity and femininity more than anything.
More seriously, I would somewhat disagree with this assertion. Society probably does mostly define if a given trait or hobby is "masculine" or "feminine" - these classifications vary from partially to entirely culturally constructed. But whether someone's overall gender expression is masculine or feminine is, in my opinion, self-determined. I am a queer femme whose gender performance is generally feminine because I percieve myself as such.

I've got some other thoughts I'd like to share, but they are sufficiently distinct from these that they really need to be a separate post. So (since we aren't allowed to make two consecutive posts to a thread), I guess I'll hold those thoughts for now.

[ZenFrost]

You kinda missed the point I was making with that. I could have said that humans evolved/were created to have two arms and two legs but I could list any number of instances where that isn't true, either by birth or due to some other cause. I've known lesbians who had children, and I'm not trying to deny the possibility or merit of it, but that part of my post is referring to a specific timeframe, think 50,000 BCE. If you wanted a baby back then, you got a man and a woman and had one, you weren't thinking about chimeras, artificial insemination, or any of the modern scientific processes we have today. As I stated later in my post, we've moved beyond that now. I was just remarking that the human reproductive process works a certain way naturally, and while there are exceptions (as you noted) both biological and scientific, they're still just exceptions.

Maybe think of it this way. My knuckles bend a certain way, this makes sense because it lets me pick up things. I can bend my knuckles backwards, but they're not supposed to go that way. I can, it's okay that I do, there's nothing wrong or immoral about it, but they just weren't made to work like that. So I can say that bending my knuckles forward is the natural way of human knuckles to be. Bending them backwards isn't unnatural (if it was, than how come I can? And all the many other people who can too?) it's just not they way they were designed.

The Captain's original question was "How do you define masculine?" so that's how I defined it. I think of it as a social construct with some basis on human nature, and as something that has become largely outdated and unnecessary in today's world. If you want to disagree with me, that's fine, but I was just answering the original question about what I thought, and I never said it was anything more than my opinion.

[Valeria]

You kinda missed the point I was making with that.
Not really. That's why I said I wasn't really refuting your point. My response was somewhat orthogonal to yours.

I'm also very familiar with evolutionary psychology, which argues (sometimes persuasively) that some of the observable behavioral differences between men and women exist because they were adaptive at times in the past. I don't completely concede that some of these differences are biologically determined because of evolutionary advantages, but I will concede that their arguments are hard to completely dismiss.

But an argument that I see a *lot* is that only men and women can have babies, so it's only natural that marriage is only between a man and a woman. Because of this reasoning being used to justify discrimination against gay people, the whole "only a man and a woman can have a baby" argument vexes me whenever I see it used to any purpose, even if it is expressed sensitively.

The government where I live has thus far refused to acknowledge me as a legal parent to my child, despite my actually being a biological parent, solely because I'm a woman. I've literally had a government bureacrat tell me that I'm a woman, and I'm not the birth mom, so I can't legally be a biological parent because only a man and a woman can have a baby.

So this is a really sore point with me (and not just an academic curiosity). I wasn't trying to criticize your opinion however, just point out that it's not a universal constant. Too many people don't acknowledge that there are exceptions, so I'm inclined to point them out whenever the topic arises.

The fact is, were I on my death bed and I overheard someone say "One man + one woman = baby. Two men can't make a baby, nor can two women, and even in combinations it still takes one man and one woman to do so.", my dying words would be "that's not completely true".

Sorry.

[BTW, chimeras and intersexed conditions were certainly around in prehistory, and some myths probably originated with them.]


The Captain's original question was "How do you define masculine?" so that's how I defined it. I think if it as a social construct with some basis on human nature, and as something that has become largely outdated and unnecessary in today's world.
I think it's mostly self-defined. In my social circle, topics like what makes a queer woman femme or butch come up a lot, and the answer is that there is no one universal constant characteristic. Femmes can like sports, be strong and decisive leaders, and not wear makeup. Butches can have long hair, wear eyeliner, and like pink. There is no single character trait or aspect of gender performance that is completely definitive. And yet, most of us are very comfortable in our femininity or masculinity, respectively.

FWIW, one way that some psychologists have distinguished masculinity from femininity is by distinguishing between the typical gender roles of men and women. They divided gender roles into "masculine" traits and "feminine" traits. The "masculine" traits they called instrumental traits, and they consisted of task-oriented talents such as assertiveness, self-reliance, ambition, leadership, and decisiveness. The "feminine" traits they called expressive traits, and they consisted of social and emotional skills such as warmth, tenderness, compassion, kindness, and sensitivity to others.

Studies have shown that men are about twice as likely to have instumental traits as women, and vice versa with women and expressive traits. However, there are many decisive women and sensitive men, and I suspect that much of the gender differences are the result of socialization. So I'll never really concede that such traits are masculine or feminine, per se.

[CaptLex]

FWIW, one way that some psychologists have distinguished masculinity from femininity is by distinguishing between the typical gender roles of men and women. They divided gender roles into "masculine" traits and "feminine" traits. The "masculine" traits they called instrumental traits, and they consisted of task-oriented talents such as assertiveness, self-reliance, ambition, leadership, and decisiveness. The "feminine" traits they called expressive traits, and they consisted of social and emotional skills such as warmth, tenderness, compassion, kindness, and sensitivity to others.

Studies have shown that men are about twice as likely to have instumental traits as women, and vice versa with women and expressive traits. However, there are many decisive women and sensitive men, and I suspect that much of the gender differences are the result of socialization. So I'll never really concede that such traits are masculine or feminine, per se.
That's pretty interesting, but now it's got me wondering . . . what about people who are sometimes assertive, decisive and self-reliant, and sometimes not? Or sometimes feel kind, sensitive and warm towards others, but on other days don't have the stomach to deal with people at all? It happens, right? Could be mood swings or just slight changes in how one feels from time to time. Would we say those people have both masculine and feminine traits in varying degrees? :idontknow:

[jill s]

All the things I'm not but pretend to be in public. Not really much help now was it.
I do believe males are more focused, see what I want/need get it, see the next thing get it. Women seem to make the journey to get the whatever part of the package. My wife can tell you when and were she bought or made something but might not know much about the thing. I might know details about it but couldn't tell you how long we have had it or were it came from.
Wow that didn't even make sense to me, I clearly don't have a clue.

[DemonicDaughter]

What? That monster of a post wasn't enough? :heehee:

I've actually got something else in progress for DD's thread, provided it's okay that I post there. *doesn't see MtF only written anywhere*

You could always copy and paste you know! But I'm dying to see what you post in my thread! :D

And of course you can post! I only posted it there because MTFs seem to have a different look on femininity and seeing as how you guys never post the same issues, I thought you all had a better understanding of masculinity. And it would appear you do Zen. I love it!

Now if only we can get them to stop with the "women can wear men's clothing and no one says a word" crap, I'd be happy.

And Lex, you can steal my ideas any time your heart desires. :) I don't mind in the least... though many aren't worth the thievery. lol

[Brianna1]

Now if only we can get them to stop with the "women can wear men's clothing and no one says a word" crap, I'd be happy.

:lol::wall:
Good luck on that one! As you have said before, GG's had to work long and hard for that one...I think I know a few of us that would like to be alive when we get equality at the end of a similar struggle!! Having said that, I don't know that I'd be dressing any different to the way the average woman does today ! Drab describes male clothes soooo well but, in a lot of instances they are much more practical. There's no way I'm going to wear by best femme things while working on my motorbikes!
I think I agree on the definition of masculinity with John, it's a bunch of other people's opinions about how a man should be...and that's the gauling thing about it...they are other people's opinions

[CaptLex]

MTFs seem to have a different look on femininity
It seems to me from the responses in your thread that a lot of them see femininity as something more tangible (an article of clothing or the application of lipstick) and masculinity as a kind of action (the way one walks or stands, for example); whereas I think for the most part we see femininity or masculinity as something internal - a characteristic. :thinking:


Now if only we can get them to stop with the "women can wear men's clothing and no one says a word" crap, I'd be happy.
That's never gonna happen, so I won't hold my breath - but I think if anyone is capable of making that stop, it would be you. :smilep:


And Lex, you can steal my ideas any time your heart desires. :) I don't mind in the least... though many aren't worth the thievery. lol
I'm a classy pirate - I only steal from the best. :bg: :koc:

[DemonicDaughter]

It seems to me from the responses in your thread that a lot of them see femininity as something more tangible (an article of clothing or the application of lipstick) and masculinity as a kind of action (the way one walks or stands, for example); whereas I think for the most part we see femininity or masculinity as something internal - a characteristic. :thinking:

I agree, I don't see it as an outward thing. But then again, I don't see it relating to gender.


That's never gonna happen, so I won't hold my breath - but I think if anyone is capable of making that stop, it would be you. :smilep:

Aw, shucks! Though I think the only way it really would happen is if they bothered to really read this section more or only when they realize life is difficult for ANYONE that goes against the "norm". There is no "easier" side.



I'm a classy pirate - I only steal from the best. :bg: :koc:

:koc:

[Valeria]

As you have said before, GG's had to work long and hard for that one...I think I know a few of us that would like to be alive when we get equality at the end of a similar struggle!!
You don't seem to get her point. Gender variant female-bodied people get lots of grief too. I know plenty of butch women that have been hassled or discriminated against for their appearance.

Females (genetics are irrelevant) are allowed to wear things like jeans without being treated badly, but that's simply because jeans are currently perceived as being unisex clothing. Females can't wear truly masculine clothing (as in clothing that is perceived as being exclusively for men) without being treated differently.

[Brianna1]

What I was meaning is that as DD has previously said in another area, the MTFs are always complaining about how 'good' the GG's have it being able to wear jeans etc. but the reality is that they had to fight long and hard to be allowed to do that. What I am saying is that they/we, the MTF's, will have to fight long and hard to gain a similar status in being able to wear more feminine clothing, as we define it. I am agreeing with her that they should stop griping about it and get on with the fight. Hope that clears up my perception of what DD posted.
In a similar vein, the gay and lesbian communities in various countries have had a long struggle to get where they are...and I am glad they did succeed. I see any group that wants to be openly recognized in public has to do what they all did to get where the others have got to. No use bitching in private...go do it!
Incidently, I have never complained on the forums about not being able to dress as I like in public...the inability is in my own head...I ain't got the guts to do it!
I have to admit that I didn't realise that FTMs got grief from the public but I am not surprised in the least...I'd just never thought of the point and I don't know anyone who is a FTM.

[deja true]

What a hard question and I find it almost impossible answer.

It seems to be easy for many of us, boys and girls alike, to answer in the negative. We know what masculinity or femininity is NOT to our own minds. And these are the traits that we try to overcome or deny. But when it comes to what men or women really are, we can generally only describe the physical traits or modes of presentatin that we want to present.

To describe in words the true reality of a man or woman's psyche, the actuality of manhood or womanhood, is so bound up in our own perceptions of the opposite gender of our birth that we probably each have a totally different concept. All are right and all fall short.

Maybe we think too much, the curse of being a sensitive creature with a soul. I've stopped obsessing about my male-ness or female-ness and now try to just concentrate on the singularity of my human-ness. Overcoming the negatives of each gender and embracing the positives of both.

[Brianna1]

I'd say there are a lot of our perceptions that are misguided by stereotypes formed by what other humans think and that in reality, we don't necessarily know how to truly define either masculinity or femininity. It seems like we have to have a set of rules that tell us how to recognise one or the other type so that we can behave accordingly. And when 'one' steps outside of the boundaries of recognition or 'normality' there is all hell to pay!

[CaptLex]

I have to admit that I didn't realise that FTMs got grief from the public but I am not surprised in the least...
Which is why we encourage people who are not FtM to visit us and expand their horizons. :thumbsup: A constant comment we get here is, "I don't go in your section because I figure I'm not welcome there." :rolleyes:


I'd just never thought of the point and I don't know anyone who is a FTM.
That you know of ;) . . . you'd be surprised how many people said the same to me after I came out. We tend to be mistaken as other than FtM many times. :p

[Valeria]

That's pretty interesting, but now it's got me wondering . . . what about people who are sometimes assertive, decisive and self-reliant, and sometimes not? Or sometimes feel kind, sensitive and warm towards others, but on other days don't have the stomach to deal with people at all? It happens, right? Could be mood swings or just slight changes in how one feels from time to time. Would we say those people have both masculine and feminine traits in varying degrees? :idontknow:
I haven't really looked at the primary source material for any of these studies to see how they are categorizing people. I do know that they found that some people are androgynous (strong in both instrumental and expressive traits) and a smaller percentage are either weak at both or cross-typed (i.e. men who are strong in expressive traits and weak in instrumental traits). If you are curious, I can post some references to some of the studies in this area, so you can look into them futher.

Evolutionary psychology (which is what ZenFrost was partially alluding to) is also interesting. This school of thought attempts to explain aspects of male and female behavior in terms of being evolutionarily adaptive. To give an example, studies have shown that women are more upset by emotional infidelity than physical infidelity, and men are the opposite. IOW, women are typically more hurt and upset by their mate being emotionally involved with a potential rival than by their mate having sex with them. Conversely, men are more upset about their mate sleeping with someone else than by their mate being in love with someone else. Evolutionary psychologists would explain this by saying that the women need a mate that will put protecting and providing for her children as a high priority. What matters most to her is that they will be around when needed to help with the children. It is less important if they procreate with someone else. Men, on the other hand, at a primal level need to make sure the children they are raising are actually theirs. They don't care as much if their mate is emotionally attracted to someone else - they just need to know that any children born are their offspring.

I'm not entirely accepting of this theory, but there are some tendencies and trends that it helps explain.

Of course, all of this stuff is just general trends. Both sexes are far more alike than different, and most of the differences are probably mostly the result of socialization.

There are more than enough exceptions that I tend to reject anything that sounds like biological essentialism, and evolutionary psychology mostly falls into that category (ZenFrost was saying something else, I'm not referring to his post).

[Maria2004]

I'm stealing DD's idea - she started a thread in the MtF section about femininity. I can't honestly say what makes femininity or masculinity

The thread is open to all.

What I found interesting was the replies to both of the threads was predictable. What's up with that?

Just Curious

Maria

[Cai]

What I found interesting was the replies to both of the threads was predictable. What's up with that?

Just Curious

Maria

What would have been unpredictable, then? :raisedeyebrow:

[Maria2004]

What would have been unpredictable, then? :raisedeyebrow:

I am not a "spider" and the question was for CaptLex, thank you for doing your job Cai :hugs:

[deja true]

What I found interesting was the replies to both of the threads was predictable. What's up with that?

Just Curious

Maria

It may be that we have a very strictly limited view of what constitutes maleness or femaleness that's driven by our cultural upbringing. And though we dance around these topics on the Forum a lot, we never really approach the subjects head on...

We're looking for the breakthrough idea here, but I'm thinking it's really hard to get anywhere deeper than the outward signals, mostly...

Though Zen is homing in...a little more meditation and he might succeed.

I'm checkin' back regularly.

[Cai]

I am not a "spider" and the question was for CaptLex, thank you for doing your job Cai :hugs:

I'm sorry, I didn't realise a question posted in an open forum was intended for just one person.

[Maria2004]

I'm sorry, I didn't realise a question posted in an open forum was intended for just one person.

Is it open forum? Can you express yourself freely without censure, or do you have to retreat to PM? I know, I know, it can be become "unbecoming". At least I conduct all my forum business out in the open, here, warts and all, not in PM, however uncomfortable that may be.

[Cai]

Is it open forum? Can you express yourself freely without censure, or do you have to retreat to PM? I know, I know, it can be become "unbecoming". At least I conduct all my forum business out in the open, here, warts and all, not in PM, however uncomfortable that may be.

All I was meant is that you posted the question without indicating who it was intended for, and then responded in a manner that I took badly when I tried to answer it.

I'm in a terrible mood right now, and I really shouldn't be trying to talk to anyone. I'm going to bed now.

[Maria2004]

I'm in a terrible mood right now, and I really shouldn't be trying to talk to anyone. I'm going to bed now.

I know the feeling. Peace Cai :hugs:

Love

Maria

[CaptLex]

I am not a "spider" and the question was for CaptLex, thank you for doing your job Cai :hugs:
I didn't realize the question was meant for me either, Maria. And Cai asked pretty much the same thing I would have . . . so tell me, why do you find the answers predictable? :raisedeyebrow:

[Valeria]

Setting aside my distaste for the term trannies...


1) If we acknowledge that there really is a set definition for femine/masculine... some might not necessarily qualify for one or the other, and the definition would define if they were a woman/man or not and exclude some from being "ts/tg"

2) If we decide that there are no differences whatsoever, then what's the big deal about needing to transition... a man is no different from a woman and a woman is no different from a man
I've known butch trans females and femme trans males, just as I've known butch cis females and femme trans males. I'm secure enough in my identity as a queer femme, and I believe enough in the concept of gender presentation as gender performance, that I'm interested in dressing up as a drag king some night (and I have a femme friend who's willing to do it with me). Someone here just recently linked to an article about a trans guy that likes dressing as a drag queen, and lots of cissexual people (both males who identify as men and females who identify as women) engage in drag on at least a part-time basis.

So I'm afraid I don't see the imagined relationship between my being feminine or Lex's being masculine (as an arbitrary example) and the legitimacy of our having transitioned. :idontknow:

As it happens, I consider myself femme. But my womanhood would be just as legitimate if I were butch.


people won't dig deeper for fear of finding out that they aren't really the man they claim to be (for the ftm's) or the woman they claim to be (for the mtf's)
Maybe culturally femininity is as simple and well-defined as wearing perfume, pearls, a little black dress, heels, lipstick, and nail polish. Maybe femininity is perceive as being the weaker, fairer sex. Maybe masculinity is measured by fast cars, football, and belching. Maybe masculinity is percieved as being aggressive and dominant. But just because those are common opinions, it doesn't mean that these issues aren't more complicated than that in reality.

I don't believe femininity is a prerequisite for being a woman (or female), and I don't believe masculinity is a prerequisite for being a man (or male). I also don't like inflexible definitions of "doing A or wearing B is feminine (or womanly), doing X or wearing Y is masculine (or manly)".

I hold these beliefs not because I have a trans history, but because I'm a feminist lesbian and I hate such characterizations of appropriate gender behavior. I hang out a lot in the butch/femme community, and in person I know more gender-variant cissexual people than I know trans people.

Recently, some sexist union leader endorsed Hillary Clinton by saying that she has "testicular fortitude". She handled it as gracefully as she could by replying that "yes, I do have fortitude.... women can have it too," but I'm sure she was just as insulted as I at the implication that having fortitude is ordinarily an exclusively male trait.

I was at a panel led discussion about being genderqueer last year, and one of the panel members was a trans woman that identified as genderqueer. While attempting to explain what made hir genderqueer, zie said zie had a "warrior spirit". I actually called hir on that, saying that many women have warrior spirits, and that has nothing to do with being genderqueer. I had several other women come up to me after the discussion ended, thanking me for saying what they had been thinking, and stating that they'd been terribly offended by that remark (as was I).

This is why I don't believe in trying to state definitively that characteristic X is a masculine trait. Feminine women can be *great* leaders. Also, women can be feminine without liking the color pink, having long hair, or wearing high heels. As someone has recently recently famously illustrated, men can even get pregnant while still being masculine. Narrow definitions just don't seem to work well from my perspective.

Also, the other issue is that I don't wish to invalidate anyone else's self image. People should be allowed to define and own their own labels. My definition of masculinity or femininity might not mesh with that of Lex or Cai or you. Who am I to tell you if you are masculine or feminine.

I have often participated in discussions of what does it mean to be a femme (i.e., a particular type of queer woman, typically a dyke, whose gender performance is generally feminine with a queer twist). The fact is that it's really hard to define universally - even amongst primarily cisgendered women who essentially all identify as femme. Everyone has a slightly different way they would define it. The definitions are mostly similar in nature, but there are differences, and no one person's definition is inherently superior.

Some of my friends identify as lesbians. Some of them do not - despite being primarily or exclusively attracted to other women. I identify as lesbian (in addition to being femme and queer), but by their definitions I'm not a lesbian. But that's okay - I get to pick and define my labels, and they get to define theirs.

Trans people may well be a minority. So might all the LGBT people combined. Feminists are probably a minority too. That doesn't mean that our opinions don't count, or that we should just quietly succumb to the tyranny of the majority. If my opinions on gender differ from those of the majority, perhaps it just reflects my being better informed on the subject, with a broader perspective.

But in any case, I approach this issue primarily from the perspective of a feminist with substantial experience in the dyke community. My having also transitioned is just icing on the cake. Most of my femme and butch friends would be just as quick to dismiss attempts to form rigid definitions of what is femininity and what is masculinity (or more to the point, what is acceptable for women and men).

[Maria2004]

I didn't realize the question was meant for me either, Maria. And Cai asked pretty much the same thing I would have . . . so tell me, why do you find the answers predictable? :raisedeyebrow:

Crossdresser's have brought this topic up in the past, and I remember it getting ugly once all parties of our diverse little community started weighing in, once the smoke cleared I thought it was agreed we needed to get beyond these definitions. Now 2 non CD moderators have brought it up again, back to back and I don't understand why.

[Kieron Andrew]

Crossdresser's have brought this topic up in the past, and I remember it getting ugly once all parties of our diverse little community started weighing in, once the smoke cleared I thought it was agreed we needed to get beyond these definitions. Now 2 non CD moderators have brought it up again, back to back and I don't understand why.

Maria im failing to see your point, until you put your :2c: in the threads (both mtf and ftm) have been going great and some really good discussions have formed from it without any animosity, they are back to back to gain a view point from the other side of the fence & to compare similarities and differences?

[CaptLex]

Crossdresser's have brought this topic up in the past, and I remember it getting ugly once all parties of our diverse little community started weighing in, once the smoke cleared I thought it was agreed we needed to get beyond these definitions. Now 2 non CD moderators have brought it up again, back to back and I don't understand why.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying the subject has already been covered by crossdressers in the past, so there's no point in two non-crossdressers starting threads about it. Do you think there's a hidden agenda here? :idontknow:

I admit I copied the idea from DD (who is not a moderator, btw) because I was curious how people would define masculinity - something I'm not sure I can define. And I wanted a variety of opinions, so the thread is open to all: FtM, MtF, GG, GM, CD, TS, etc. 'cause I'd like to see as many definitions as possible.

If it's something that you've already had enough of discussing, you don't have to participate - leave it for those who haven't.

Also, I have to admit, you've really puzzled me with this one:


At least I conduct all my forum business out in the open, here, warts and all, not in PM, however uncomfortable that may be.
What does that mean? :confused:

[Joanne f]

This is like a revers of DD thread so being a male (big joke :heehee:) i should find quite easy , but hey surprise i do not :eek: so i have to ask myself why is it so difficult for me to answer it after all i am a male :D but could that be some of the problem, am i a male with a females brain, possible, i am on a site where i am aloud to let my male side out and my female side in, possible, do i simply not have enough intelligence to know the difference, possible , (i heard you mutter that and i have you email address) is it something that really has no definite definitive meaning , possible, would it have a different meaning to you if you are a male ,female, occasional CD, full time CD,TG TS FtM MtF FAB, possible, if you can link something to what all think then you might have it , after all that the only thing that i can come up with is colour and movement as it seems to me that i have a preconception in my brain that tells me that a certain colour or movement is feminine therefor the opposite must be masculine, ie soft colours feminine , soft and gentile movement feminine, opposite to that , hard in your face colours masculine, stiff and gigged masculine, does are brain automatically sort this out when we look at some thing and automatically categorize it as masculine or feminine.
At the end of the day i do not know :doh: it is the one question that i have real problems with .


joanne :doh:

[CaptLex]

after all that the only thing that i can come up with is colour and movement as it seems to me that i have a preconception in my brain that tells me that a certain colour or movement is feminine therefor the opposite must be masculine, ie soft colours feminine , soft and gentile movement feminine, opposite to that , hard in your face colours masculine, stiff and gigged masculine, does are brain automatically sort this out when we look at some thing and automatically categorize it as masculine or feminine.
I have to disagree with that, Joanne. I don't think it's something we're born with in our brains - I see it as something we're taught growing up. After all, pink was once a color for boys and blue was for girls, but now it's been reversed.

People emulate what they learn - from parents, friends, society in general. It's another one of those gender stereotypes we've all been bombarded with since the cradle. So we don't even think about it consciously, we just see a color and associate it with something.

And it really bugs me when someone will tease a guy who wants to wear a pink or other pastel-colored shirt, for example. It's just a matter of taste and has nothing to do with gender IMO.

[Joanne f]

Well as i have said i do have a big problem with answering this one so you could verywell be right in what you are saying .

joanne :D



just had this thought, is it possible that because being masculine is the last thing that i want i am blocking it out

[Kate Simmons]

Hmm, one of my favorite dress shirt colors when I wear a suit as Rich is pink. I have 4 different shades really and I think they are quite cool myself.:)

[LilSissyStevie]

. . . how do you define "masculine"? :raisedeyebrow:

It's snips and snails and puppydog tails, silly!:brolleyes:

[Valeria]

And it really bugs me when someone will tease a guy who wants to wear a pink or other pastel-colored shirt, for example. It's just a matter of taste and has nothing to do with gender IMO.
I have a butch girlfriend that loves pink - she wears it way more than I do. I almost never wear pink, primarily because I don't think it looks good with auburn hair.

She's still way more masculine than I am (and she's totally butch, believe me), she just happens to like that color.

Which brings up the other thing. Masculinity/femininity != gender.

[CaptLex]

just had this thought, is it possible that because being masculine is the last thing that i want i am blocking it out
Anything's possible . . . :idontknow:


Hmm, one of my favorite dress shirt colors when I wear a suit as Rich is pink. I have 4 different shades really and I think they are quite cool myself. :)
I'm not at all surprised, Sal. You're not the type to care if someone is going to question your femininity, masculinity or orientation just because you like a certain color. :hugs:


I have a butch girlfriend that loves pink - she wears it way more than I do. I almost never wear pink, primarily because I don't think it looks good with auburn hair.

She's still way more masculine than I am (and she's totally butch, believe me), she just happens to like that color.
My point exactly. They're just colors and it's just a matter of what someone likes and what looks good on them. But some people won't wear certain colors or patterns because they're too afraid of the gender police. I wear dark colors a lot, but I also wear pink, lavender, turquoise and even fuschia shirts and most people know me better than to question it. :p