Equal Rights?

[putz0611]

Do CDers want only to be able to chose the clothing and accessories that they feel comfortable in or is there something more? If it is the clothing barrier, why aren't there more groups trying to rally for equal rights? I understand societies stigmas, but women had to fight society for the right to wear pants. And that wasn't that long ago. If more is wanted, I still think the first step for acceptance is rallying for equal rights.

[Amy Hepker]

I believe we all want different things, but we do want to be accepted as who we are by most everyone out there.

[Kate Simmons]

Hi Putz, Amy is right, there are a lot of different agendas out there. The biggest barrier I see with many, however, is self acceptance and embracing of our own feelings and openness. Until that is accomplished to a much larger degree, it will mostly remain as is and agreeing on a common agenda is difficult to say the least.

[Sally24]

One of the differences between us and most previous fights for civil rights is the fact that we are invisible until we complain. Blacks and women were already know, but were being descriminated against. They didn't risk exposure because they were unable to hide. The majority of TG or CDs are "hidden" and would be exposed to active pressure and descrimination if they appealed for their rights. That makes it imperative that anyone out of the closet try to do something to help promote acceptance and furthering our fight for rights.

[putz0611]

Thank you Sally, you got to the heart of the question. I'm no longer trying to figure things out, it is what it is. The problem with the clothes issue is that women had voting rights long before their right to wear pants. Women were accused of all sorts of things on wanting to dress like men. There needs to be strong gurls to stand up, the ones that have been doing the crossdressing in the open. It's not immoral or illegal, it just is.

[victoriamwilliams1]

Totally different agendas. A fact I was watching Benny Hinn yes thats Hinn not Hill:) and they had an revival in one country and the men where wearing skirts! in fact the one guys skirt looked like one I used to own! Note this, the male skirts are long and not short however it is a skirt. However what the TG community is seeing is the right to dress and present ourselves to the world as the opposite gender without prejudice.

[trannie T]

Salandra and Sally are both spot on. We cannot expect others to accept us if we can not accept ourselves, and we can not be visible to the public if we continue to hide in the closet like timid little bunnies. There is an election this November in the US, if your rights are important to you vote only for those candidates who will support us.

[putz0611]

I guess my whole point is that ever since women have been acceted in pants and such, no one really looks and asks why. It would be nice if the roles were equal in society. Since asking myself that question, I'm no longer asking why my hubby CDs. It would be like asking me why I wear jeans, who really cares why I dress the way I dress.

[Rachel Morley]

I agree with Sally. We are invisible and that makes things harder because people only know what they perceive us to be because of the media and whatnot, so straight away we have an uphill struggle.

I'd also like to say that, of course, we can (technically) wear anything we like, there is no law against it. However, unlike women, we haven't yet earned the right to wear whatever we want....not if you want to be socially accepted. In the past women were "not allowed" to wear all sorts of mascucline clothes. I'm talking 100 years ago here. They were expected (because of men) to wear corsets, dresses, etc etc....pants and trousers were frowned upon. It wasn't until the women's movement fought for their rights by getting out there and being seen....they made it happen.

IMHO it's going to be the same for us. We (me included) have to get out there in our dresses and be seen for what we are....transgendered. It's not going to be an easy ride, and we are going to have to take some risks, but if ultimately, we are going to get accepted more in society then people have to know about us. It's up to us to educate them that we are harmless individuals and we are not to be feared...despite what they may perceive.

We have one additional thing that we have to deal with, and that is the social hierarchy within our society. When a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's going "up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing.

Now, obviously I'm generalizing about the public at large, and not everyone thinks this way, but IMHO the only way we will ever be truly accepted is when women truly get an equal status in society with men. Why hasn't there ever been a female US President? (I'm hoping that will change soon :)) Where are all the female military Generals? Am I making any sense here? The key to it being accepted is the empowerment of women. That’s why all cders should be interested in women’s issues and leveling the playing field instead of complaining that it’s not fair. I'll get off my soap box now. :sb:

[sandra-leigh]

The problem with the clothes issue is that women had voting rights long before their right to wear pants.

Depends what you mean by "their right to wear pants". Bloomers and "bicycle pants" date from about 1880, definitely before the USA amended the constitution to give women the right to vote in 1920.

The material I find indicates that wearing pants at work was fairly extensive during WWII, about 20 years after voting rights. I don't think I would say that 20 years is "long before".

The general wearing of pants as a fashion item doesn't appear to have really started until Breakfast At Tiffany's (Audry Hepburn) capris.

Rights to wear pants... not until 1995 in California!

If you google for "women wearing pants", the great majority of the hits you get for the first several pages are condemnations based upon biblical tracks, they "corrupt our spirituality", women shouldn't wear pants in church, "it's been scientifically proven" by eye position measurements that when women wear pants, men will focus first on her crotch, etc., etc.. In that sense, women in the USA still do not have the "right" to wear pants.

[Maria2222]

I'm probably taking this further than it started out, but I feel that one barrier to acceptance is the demand for approval. Acceptance is where you are given the right to do what you want and others have no concerns about it and acknowledge your right to do your thing. There is no labeling of various lifestyles as right or wrong. Certain hard core individuals, and I'm not speaking about the members here, but more towards some gay rights advocates, demand that they receive approval as well as acceptance. They want to be told that what they are doing is correct rather than just receiving the tacit acceptance and tolerance to live the way they want. Frankly, I'm sympathetic to gay rights, but I began to lose that sympathy when they want to ram there life style down my throat and demand that I show approval for them. If I feel that way when I'm on their side, think what the general public must feel.
I hope I'm making sense. The bottom line is CD's and other alternative life stylers should be happy if society can benignly tolerate and accept them and should not push it by expecting society to to pat them on the back and proclaim that this is a proper way to live when the majority probably have other opinions.

[putz0611]

Thank you Rachel! I will say that yes, a female presidant will do wonders, I however don't think Mrs. Hilary Clinton would do anything for promoting the image of women. She is conflicting with herself and that isn't a good image for anyone in power, male or female. Also, I think it is the male perception (society speaking of course) that prevents a lot of progress as far as images are concerned.

[DemonicDaughter]

There are groups out there fight for the rights of cd/tv/tg/ts individuals but as much as people scream for equal rights, few take action.

If you'd like more information on it, here are a few links:

Freedom Activist: Crossdressing (http://www.freedomactivist.org/clothing.html#transvest)

Transgender Law and Policy Institute (http://www.transgenderlaw.org/)

T-Vox (http://www.t-vox.org/)

You can always find out from local groups what is going on in your area. :)

[putz0611]

Women and girls wearing pants wasn't really socially acceptable until late 1950's, early 1960's. Girls were sent home if they weren't wearing skirts at school in most of the U.S. Women faught that. However you want to lable genetic men dressing in female clothes (and I'm not) they deserve the acceptance of wearing what they want, without being questioned or criticized. Thanks to this forum, I think I finally understood that with my hubby!

[bimini1]

I still think that for otherwise so-called 'normal' men who CD the price of admission is simply no worth the pay-off.

[TSchapes]

Joan of Arc was put to death for wearing men's clothes. Heresy.

Marlene Dietrich would wear men's underwear. Paramount was upset.

Katharine Hepburn wore pants in the 1930's, it was considered scandalous.

Woman wore pants in WWI due to necessity. There were not enough men to build the war machinery. So due to the male's penchant for war, women got liberated and we've been left dressing in the closet. Seems fitting.

Why in this day and age we are still fighting Shaatnez is beyond me.

-Tracy

[vivianann]

I have found in my experience of going out in public enfemme that peaple are accepting and have alot of questions. Yes there are those peaple who are critical of males wearing dresses, just like those who were critical of women who wore pants in the 50s and 60s, We just need to put our dresses on and go out in public just like the women put their pants on in the 50s and 60s. we have the right to dress how we like, but we are too scared to, and we hide in the closet. Protesting for rights that already exist is not the answer.
we do not need to protest, we just need to put on our dresses and exercise our rights and put on our dresses and go out in public and eventually society will accept us as they do when women wear pants. we need to overcome our fears and get the hell out of the closet, and go out to the store, or anywhere else we want to go. I have a new found freedom since I have overcome my fears of being seen in a dress. our freedom to dress how we want already exist, now overcome your fears and get out of the closet and enjoy your freedom to dress how you wish. Should anybody want to harm you the law is on your side, however you also should learn self defense, and be careful where you go enfemme, because there is dangerous places out there, and no matter how you are dressed there are places you should avoid, because they are dangerous even if you are dressed as a man. Also we must dress appropriate so as to not cause the wrong impression, (DO NOT DRESS LIKE A ****). I believe that society will accept us if we will dress decent, and if we also behave in a proper way. :2c:

[noname]

I'm all about equal rights.

[Sally24]

Just like the women put their pants on in the 50s and 60s. we have the right to dress how we like, but we are too scared to, and we hide in the closet. Protesting for rights that already exist is not the answer. We do not need to protest, we just need to put on our dresses and exercise our rights. Should anybody want to harm you the law is on your side
We have some ability to dress as we want. There is no right to that. CDers are frequently refused entrance to public venues either because they are dressed "inappropirately" or because their id doesn't match their presentation. They cannot physically "harm" you but in many states you have no protection from being fired, forced to use the men's room, refused service and derided. The feds will not address this issue anytime soon so we must push for state laws that protect our right to make a living and go about our business as any other citizen!

[Fab Karen]

"I began to lose that sympathy when they want to ram there life style down my throat and demand that I show approval for them"

You mean like the guy tongue-kissing his girlfriend in line at the grocery store? Should they also stop ramming their lifestyle down people's throats?


I endorse what Vivianann has said ( while slightly amending that we should dress appropriately for the environment we're in ( clubwear in general isn't for shopping in the middle of the day i.e.) ).

[sandra-leigh]

Women and girls wearing pants wasn't really socially acceptable until late 1950's, early 1960's. Girls were sent home if they weren't wearing skirts at school in most of the U.S.

The "girls school" ("Academy for Women" -- a high school) a couple of miles from me still has a skirt and school-blouse dress code. The use of school uniforms (male and female) is on the increase again, with the two main reasons given that the use of uniforms eliminates the wearing of "divisive" clothing (e.g., gang clothing), or that the use of uniforms eliminates the wearing of "inappropriate" clothing (this sometimes refers to female students wearing of mini-skirts in school, sometimes to female students wearing camisoles or bustiers or similar on the outside -- but what really gets school officials (and mayors) upset is the "saggy pants" style. Schools survived 40 years of mini-skirts and a decade or more of visible camisoles, but saggy pants threaten not just the school system but society as a whole, apparently...)

[amber 07]

While living in Australia near a small town, one of the blokes occasionally showed up at the pub in a dress. No wig, make-up or other amenities, just a dress. No one at the pub gave him a second look. He was who he was and everyone accepted it. It was quite comical, in my mind, seeing a bloke dressed in a frock, playing cricket and lawn bowling. This was a town of about 200 people, so everyone knew everyone else. New Years eve party 2006 at the pub was a hoot as no less than 5 blokes showed up in drag and EVERYONE enjoyed the evening. It just goes to show that there is tolerance, if not acceptance of us out there, even in small communities. Hugs, Amber

[kerrianna]

The key to it being accepted is the empowerment of women. That’s why all cders should be interested in women’s issues and leveling the playing field instead of complaining that it’s not fair.

Good point Rachel! :hugs:

I think that the homophobia and sexism that still exists in our society is a key. I know for me personally it plays into my fears of being ridiculed or shamed, fears I am working on overcoming.

Besides being activist about it and educating people, just getting out there and taking our space is the most important thing. That can be daunting and sometimes dangerous, but everyone else who has fought to change something has had to go through it. My partner got sent home often for daring to wear pants to school in the early 60's, and she got a lot of flack at school and home for it, yet kept wearing them because she knew she had a right to.

So besides fighting sexism and homophobia we have to believe in ourselves and in our right to wear what we want. I'm gradually wearing more and more what I want in public without trying to pass, just as me, and while I see young people do this as a 'statement' thing sometimes, I'm still kind of amazed I seem to be the only person my age who dares to dress differently. It kind of makes me more determined to do that, although I do dress the way I do for my own personal reasons and I'm not trying to make a statement... other than I should be allowed to be who I am. I'm not harming anyone and I'm not trying to change anyone else. But if my own style inspires or emboldens others that's great. Haven't seen it so far in my small community.

Personally I find it's mainly men that seem intimidated by the way I dress. It bothers them I think because in me they see themselves and then they see themselves being ridiculed and shamed and maybe even hurt by their peers. What I know is that I'm nuturing true courage, and that's something that should inspire them, if they didn't live so much in fear and ignorance.

[Tree GG]

There seems to be a belief here that the women's movement was about women wanting to be more like men. To be treated as men. I think that misses the point entirely.

IMO, the equal rights movements of women and other groups, was about having access to the same privileges, services and public venues as anyone else. At the time it was the caucasion male. Doesn't mean women wanted to be more like men, or black Americans wanted to be like white Americans.

With that in mind, I'm all for equal rights for anyone. No one should be denied employment opportunity or be in physical danger because of how they look. Which would include TG folks. However, I question whether wearing skirts or pants, regardless of birth gender, is really an issue of social importance. IMO, clothes are clothes and placing so much self-value in what you wear is too close to snobbery and discrimination in it's own way. (Designer fashion vs off the rack mentality). :hiding: I will dodge the flying beer bottles now.

No woman I know achieves any kind of emotional fulfillment from wearing pants. They're just clothes of convenience. Crossdressing is alot of things, but I've never heard it described as convenient. :D

[Emeralddragon]

Well as Richard O'Brian put it. In the olden days men wore very extravagant clothes. Sometimes more so than the women. Then all of a sudden the victorians came along and brought with them the suit and we've been wearing it ever since. We just need to get peoples minds back to before we got so repressed and then everything will fall into place. Well hopefully anyway.

[kerrianna]

No woman I know achieves any kind of emotional fulfillment from wearing pants. They're just clothes of convenience. Crossdressing is alot of things, but I've never heard it described as convenient. :D


Actually, Tree, I often find what I choose to dress in more convenient, for me anyway. I think it works both ways.

Personally I think the empowerment of women in our society is important because I believe the system is still weighted patriarchal, and it's the patriarchy that really hates CDing, because we basically undermine the core belief system - we side and sympathize with the oppressed instead of the oppressors. And that's the worst thing in a hierarchy like that.

It's about power in the end.
CDers aren't being good team players for the League of Domineering Men. And that makes us dangerous, because we may just pull out that card that's holding the whole house of cards up and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

By fighting for everyone's right to equality we fight for ours.

I think there are lots of people here who do understand that the women's movement wasn't about women wanting to emulate men, although it would include the right for someone to do that if she wished... just as we need to fight for the right for someone to emulate a woman if they wished... but this is all part of a bigger effort to acheive true equality and freedom for everyone.

[Kate Simmons]

Crossdressing by definition to me seems to be an individual "toucy/feely" sort of thing and "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" sort of thing. Most of the time acceptance has to be on an individual basis as different people are at different levels in regard to it. Put simply, riding on the coattails of those seeking rights for the TG/TS community won't work because of all the different goals envisioned. In essense, most want to be accepted for who they are but are unable or unwilling(due to personal circumstances) to take part in any kind of movement. That is why to really be accepted with this, it requies some sort of personal effort for one to "win their spurs" on their own more or less.:)

[CaptLex]

I'm sympathetic to gay rights, but I began to lose that sympathy when they want to ram there life style down my throat and demand that I show approval for them. If I feel that way when I'm on their side, think what the general public must feel.
I for one don't want your or anyone else's sympathy. All I want is the right to see two guys or two women holding hands in a public park without anyone giving us a second look (for starters) - same as any two heterosexuals have the right to do. It's about equal rights, not special treatment. If you don't want me "ramming my lifestyle" anywhere, then don't subject me to the same. :rolleyes:


The bottom line is CD's and other alternative life stylers should be happy if society can benignly tolerate and accept them and should not push it by expecting society to to pat them on the back and proclaim that this is a proper way to live when the majority probably have other opinions.
Why the hell not? :raisedeyebrow:

And for those who are unaware - the idea that women HAVE to wear skirts has been mortally wounded here in the states for many decades, but it's not totally dead yet. When I entered the workforce in the early 80's, women HAD to wear skirts to an interview and were required to wear them at the office too. That wasn't that long ago. Also, there's a certain fancy hotel in the midwest (I won't name it) that won't allow women to dine in their restaurant in the evening unless they're wearing skirts. :doh:

So the idea is not totally a thing of the past . . . hell, there are some right here on this forum who think women shouldn't wear pants and consider any woman that does a crossdresser. :p

[Fab Karen]

However, I question whether wearing skirts or pants, regardless of birth gender, is really an issue of social importance.


OK, how about we go back to our society requiring that all women wear skirts or dresses. & maybe they should also be required to wear make-up when in public. Then we'll see if you find it of importance.

[charlie]

Before even talking about equal rights, we must feel that what we are doing is OK ourselves. We purge our stocks because we feel that we are doing a wrong thing and want to stop. We hide what we do because society does not accept it. We (even though we a heterosexuals for the most part) go off to gay bars because those are the only places that will openly accept us. In order to gain rights and acceptance as a group, we as a group must not be ashamed of ourselves as a starting point.

[sterling12]

My good friend Babs who has been more or less "out" for a long time gave me the best explanation that I've heard.

Quite simply, MOST CD's want their cake and eat it too. It's a benefit to be able to put on a frock in the bedroom, when feeling "frisky," but not having any of The Femme Self impinge on any of The Guy Life. So they can safely hide away The Gifted Side and reap all the benefits that go with being male.

It is always the way of any movement. The many are willing to have a few dedicated person's go out and do all the "heavy lifting;" be risk takers and get a movement started. Then when things look a lot safer, all these other people jump on board and claim the rewards.

Many, many, women got fed up with the inequalities and started to really start pushing for their rights in The 60s. There had been a lot of pioneers who came before them, the suffragettes, the planned parenthood people, the women in the labor movement to name just a few, those women took a lot of the jailings, public disgrace, and the abuse.

Right now, we aren't anywhere near the level of a sudden growth to "The Movement." It's going to take a lot more individuals finally getting "fed up" and motivated enough to take some action. I hope it's soon....I would like to see it in my lifetime!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[battybattybats]

Why the hell not? :raisedeyebrow:


Indeed!

Anyone who has a problem seeing any two adults doing anything ethical in public has issues. If those issues are socially accepted that doesn't make them any less wrong.

People discriminate against the elderly, the disabled etc all the time. What Old people, disabled people, gay people etc shouldn't kiss in public the way straight able young folk do every day?

Give me one rational reason why!

There aren't any! People just have disgusting biases. They are the ones who should be judged. Anyone who justifies a double-standard is at fault. It used to be women being unchaperoned, interracial romance etc now it's gay people kissing.

Society has respected disgusting and repulsive things in the past, like slavery and wife beating. Saying societies views need to be respected is saying that in the past a man with his wife on a leash wearing a 'scolds bridle' in her mouth for back talking him too much should have been respected.

Saying gay people shouldn't be too public is like saying black people or women shouldn't be too public.

It's a false argument!

All human rights and civil rights violations are insults to and offences to all humanity! Everyone has an obligation to defend every other humans freedoms. Otherwise we have no justification for having our own!

Gay folk, I support your right to flaunt your nature in public! I've kissed in public countless times and I see no reason you shouldn't have that same freedom!

[KarenCDFL]

Nothing gets me more ticked off then hearing about Gay Rights, Womens' Rights, Racial Rights and oh yeah Crossdressers/Gender Rights.

You see that is the problem, we should not be fighting for the rights of a label but for the rights of a human being.

Once our world of humans is truly equal in civil rights, then none of the labels would matter anymore.

I don't care about gay people getting married. Or non-gay people for that matter.

I just care that two adult human beings who love and honor each other have thought through all the questions and that they want to spend the rest of their lives together and want to do it under the some sort of legality that will give the the same benefits under whatever country or state they live in or job they have.

And gender, color, race or physical attributes should should not change that

I really can't see what the big issue is except of course religionists who wave their book of choice in your face and spout what some prejudiced group of so-called human beings wrote thousands of years ago.

My wife and myself got caught up in some of this just before we married.

I was born a jew and my wife a catholic. I had been an athiest for many years and had not stepped foot in a synagoge for as long as I could remember.

So here is the catholic girl who loves me and she gets me to start going back to Friday night services. She did not care where she got her god from as long as she got it. And she was fine with my beliefs or lack thereof.

Well we asked the Rabbi to perform our ceremony and they refused because my wife was not going to convert.

Now a Rabbi is more than just a religious figure. A Rabbi can legally sign a marriage license in the state they are licensed. I figure it is the same for Priests, Ministers.

But it was ok to keep coming to Friday night services and to keep donating money. There is a lot more to this story but I won't bore any of you with it.

I get so sick and tired of the groups of people demeaning the human race because they think their god is better than your god. Specially since there is no concrete proof of an an omnipotent deity at all.

I have no clue what the answer is and I am sure it will not change much in my lifetime but in my heart I hope one day true equality becomes a universal truth.

Hell, if they can do it on Star Trek, It can be done here in the real world.

This is the longest and most prevoking post I have posted here yet.

Please take these ideas from where they come, from the heart.

Peace

Whew ... Glad thats done.

[vivianann]

Nothing gets me more ticked off then hearing about Gay Rights, Womens' Rights, Racial Rights and oh yeah Crossdressers/Gender Rights.

You see that is the problem, we should not be fighting for the rights of a label but for the rights of a human being.

I agree Karen.

[Tree GG]

OK, how about we go back to our society requiring that all women wear skirts or dresses. & maybe they should also be required to wear make-up when in public. Then we'll see if you find it of importance.

See Cap't Lex's post.


...You see that is the problem, we should not be fighting for the rights of a label but for the rights of a human being.....

Exactly the point!

[battybattybats]

Nothing gets me more ticked off then hearing about Gay Rights, Womens' Rights, Racial Rights and oh yeah Crossdressers/Gender Rights.

You see that is the problem, we should not be fighting for the rights of a label but for the rights of a human being.


I agree, but people are discriminated against, marginalised etc according to their labels. Those are all catagories of human rights and certainly we should all support all of them as we should all support universal equality. Of course there are bigots in all groups, people who just want equality for them but not for those they hate. Members of racial minorities who oppose gay rights, some feminists who oppose transgender rights etc etc.

Still acknowledging a disadvantaged group and the bias against them on account of a label is important, as too often they are marginalised groups, their grievences silenced or unreported, rarely given their fair share of acknowledgement and public expression. The trick is that the emphasis of why it's wrong, that it's against human rights, needs to be ever-present.

[Fab Karen]

See Cap't Lex's post.

see: analogy