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Calliope
06-07-2008, 05:46 AM
One way to live in community without much emotional pain is to stay out of love.
~ Kat Kinkade, Is It Utopia Yet?

It didn’t take long after arriving at Twin Oaks before I heard about “Bobbi.”

Quotes are employed because the narrative didn’t belong to Bobbi, it was conveyed, individually but almost invariably uniformly, as Twin Oaks history. Precedent plays forcefully here, shaping culture and, dare I say, shared consciousness (a minor example culled from infinite possibilities: No one occupies “Name's room,” they live at “Another Name's old room”). Since Twin Oaks is rural, however egalitarianized, it figures a certain conservatism applies. Keep that in mind when hearing “Bobbi’s” story.

I believe “Bobbi was an utter asshole,” as recounted by Madge with her usual gusto, was my narrative introduction to Bobbi. This view was confirmed and enlarged upon by several other women I met in my early days at Twin Oaks. “A total chauvinist pig,” “always making with sexist remarks,” and “chasing after women just like some guy” were the central charges. “Bobbi had a lot of male energy and she just creeped out the women ~ especially after the incident.” Incident? Nothing charges up a DIY (no TV) utopia like a “drama” (in quotes because that is Twin Oaks vernacular).

I’m too much a lady to touch upon “the incident,” except to add (1) it may (or may not) be as reprehensible an escapade as you anticipate, and (2) it’s, as expected, the sort of accusation made against one person by one other person, both principals of course involved closely in one way or the other, leaving no trace of evidence or witness whatsoever. Back in the day, though, Twin Oaks, as a family of peers, was brought into the drama of the accusation of the incident. All in all, most folks agreed Bobbi was at fault and, as you might figure in a society of less than 100, Bobbi’s community standing soon went to freefall.

With his customary laconic dissent, Woody recalled only, “Bobbi was a loner.”

Kendrick: “She smoked like a chimney and cursed liked a sailor.”

At some point, it was decided, and not a minute too soon, that “Calliope isn’t Bobbi.” Stated briskly by a long term member of high standing, Paxus , this pronouncement offered a detour from the precedent-weighted former narrative that was “the only other transwomen who ever lived at Twin Oaks.” “I think you’ve unfortunately taken some heat from all the crap Bobbi pulled,” was once said to me. Whatever ~ one person’s misplaced precedent is only another’s data-starved prejudice; who better than I to (bitterly) understand that? Or, wait a minute.

One of the gals here once told me, deep in the heat of my “don’t trans me, don’t 'he' me” campaign, that I was having a smoother go of it than Bobbi. “That’s because, see, Bobbi was 6-foot-two, with really big shoulders and a very masculine walk whereas you, you’re much smaller, much more feminine.” Well, swoon. And, bringing gender roles fuller into play here, Bobbi’s labor scene happened primarily at the sawmill, where, “he’d” forever and a day, she received some grudging admiration from the other sawmill workers (men, as you might have guessed).

I had to admit Bobbi fell into line with some of my own precedent-freighted predispositions. “Are you sure Bobbi wasn’t a crossdresser?,” I asked. “Nope” the chorus responded, Bobbi was “trans.” Well, who better than a bunch of untravelled heteronormatives to make that determination, I mused. But, anyway.

Valerie, feminine but feminist, has lived at Twin Oaks for 15 years. She’s seen it all, and agreed to share some of her recollections of Bobbi:

“She was a very complicated person. I admired that, being real tall, solid, with Navy tattoos and a lot of residual masculine presence, she moved into her path in the face of her physical reality ~ it couldn’t have been an easy road. Social sensitivity is important at Twin Oaks and Bobbi had less than more; she would tell bad jokes, people wouldn’t be laughing, but she’d do it again and again. Bobbi was out of sync with Twin Oaks.

“When she first got here, she had very high ideals, then there was the crash. It was yin or yang with Bobbi, no middle road. I believe she came here on some sort of rebound ~ relationship or job, or both. I remember her saying to me, early on during the euphoria phase, 'I feel safe here.' But a bell went off in my head, sure, she’s physically safe here, but not necessarily safe socially.

“She worked with me as the site manager for the Communities Conference and the Women’s Gathering for two years. Year after year, it was bad communication, she just didn’t work with me. A lot of stuff just didn’t get done ~ weird. Then she went to the sawmill, maybe she managed it, it was isolated work ~ isolated in a neutral sense. But, socially, Bobbi became real isolated ~ in a negative sense ~ watching Net Flix in her room all the time; I mean, who moves into community to be alone?

“Then, there was the incident. To be fair, the other person involved had some mental health history, she was always having dramas. She was Bobbi’s one friend at Twin Oaks. But, you have one person not getting it with boundaries ~ Twin Oaks is not a therapeutic community ~ and another person not getting it on a gender issue level, it was a perfect alignment of bad community interaction and all of Twin Oaks got sucked into an all-consuming drama.

“Between Twin Oaks’ culture and Bobbi’s behavior, it wasn’t a good fit. And Bobbi left owing Twin Oaks almost $1,000 ~ not paying back the debt was not respecting the values of the group. Bobbi was a triggering person.”

Eventually, I became curious about Bobbi. (The comment about Bobbi that really got to me, unhappily grappling at the time with the possibility Twin Oaks men wouldn’t “really” view me as a woman, was: “Bobbi did fine here until she made it known she had sexual needs, like everyone else.” Did she wolf women just to spite the guys ignoring her? I wondered ~ and so on.) No photos in the archives as it turns out, which serves me right, I’ll add, going with such a superficial inquest. So I tracked down her contact info and, within a few days, I was talking to Bobbi, presumably woman-to-woman, over the phone.

“I want to say I’m sorry to hear of your rough time joining Twin Oaks, largely due to my time there,” she offered. “Please, no,” I insisted, “you've nothing to apologize to me.” Clear the air. Then, on to her story. Bobbi first heard of Twin Oaks through her then-girlfriend’s research into Women’s Conferences around the US. Presto, right in the region, the famous annual summer Twin Oaks Women’s Gathering, as immortalized on a hundred T-shirts. Bobbi loved it, and attended the next year. (Which surprised me, made timid by all the Michigan Women’s Music Festival controversies.)

Bobbi, like so many others pressured by the corporate rat-race, fell in love with utopia ~ and joined. Without her girlfriend, I should add. Just Bobbi. “Oh, the honeymoon phase was fine,” Bobbi told me, “but, even after five years, most of those so-called liberals kept calling me 'he,' they never got it.” More tellingly, Bobbi said, “Most of my five years there were completely lonely.” No romance + no friends = no utopia. “To make it worse,” Bobbi concluded, "I had no outside assets, so I spent those years stranded, trying to figure out how to get out of Twin Oaks.”

I was curious, why did Bobbi work at the sawmill, doing, well, guy stuff? “Well, I'm big and when I was younger, I overcompensated for my gender dysphoria by taking on supermasculine tasks. I was in the Navy, even.” Déjà vu, me too. “When I got to Twin Oaks, those were the sorts of things I knew I was good at.” I thought: ??? And, if I may be so forward, how about women at Twin Oaks? “I’ve always been attracted to women, I’ve been with a girlfriend for years now.” None of that registered at all with my life, but since Bobbi wasn’t compelled to inquire anything at all about me or my experience with Twin Oaks, why mention it?

No, wait a minute, Bobbi did ask one thing about me. “When did you come out?” “Kindergarten.” Incredulous silence. It was like Conundrum meets Genderqueer. Later, out of the blue, Bobbi recommended a “good gender clinic” in Virginia should I wish to score some hormones. When I said I didn’t need any medical intervention since I already (always) was female, Bobbi pulled off a telephone lacuna that was pure shrugged shoulders. Or a question mark, or whatever. We were running out of gender chitchat, and fast. And the woman-to-woman talk was going quick with it.

So I concluded with a classic interview line. “Would you do it, live at Twin Oaks, all over again?” “No way, I wouldn’t even visit for an afternoon.” So, over and out. And, damn, I forgot to ask if Bobbi liked Britney, or not. Or Hillary, or not.

And there I was, left, ultimately unedified, with all my precedent-thinking.

Me and Bobbi, nothing in common. And I go with Bobbi’s description of herself: transgendered. I’m a woman with too much testosterone. (But Bobbi’s got way more than I ~ so much more hormones become mandatory. That’s a difference between us.) I knew Bobbi’s narrative real well because it played like a million forum entries I’ve seen over the years {never once sharing recipes, I might add}. Me, I’m not transanything. I couldn’t “overcompensate” to save my life (so I deserted the Navy). And, chasing women ~ nothing I could ever pull off ~ seems, at this point in my liberation, ludicrous.* I’m not queeranything. I’m actually fairly reactionary ~ I used to think “if ya need hormones to become a woman, maybe you’re not,” now I guess if ya need ’em, you’re trans ~ thinking just like any straight old broad out of my generational timezone.**

* I’m not entirely above chasing men when the mood overcomes me. Last week was Buddy’s birthday, he’s a sensitive version of the Marlboro Man. So, before the party began (read: while I was still sober) I wrote inside a matchbook , happy b-day Buddy, Calliope” and presented it to him later that eve. Buddy didn’t mention anything for a couple of days, so I asked, “Did you read the message?” Blushing, he said yes, with more blushing. I quickly informed him, “No hurt feelings, your birthday present is simply being flattered, it’s cool” ~ no weirdness. Buddy’s been comfortable enough around me since. I’m a chaste chaser. Discreet. And no hurt feelings, really; not much left here [I]to hurt.

** Only, I’m not quite “just like.” Sometimes my unique situation, at Twin Oaks or even on transgender forums, reminds me of the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode “Birthright (Part 1)” in which the android character Data, surprised to be having dreams, laments his lack of a culture in which to interpret them. This prompts the ship’s captain, Picard, to suggest to Data that Data indeed possesses a culture ~ a “culture of one.” I’m such a gnarly girl, scrapes on my legs, full of opinions, I scare away the boys ~ and the tomboys, too. So what I got is my very own ungendered culture, a limbo land, a lack of nookie, postmenopausal mojo just like a million other old babes ... sorta.

And, lonely? Waiting for romance? There’s few women my age still silly enough for that.

When Valerie concluded her recollections, I spoke a bit about this essay, and Valerie noticed I referred to Bobbi once as “he.” I was stunned, I had not noticed doing so at all, but I had to admit, there it was, my bias. I found myself in tune with Twin Oaks’ narrative of Bobbi (quotes presently shed). So all that’s left is me trying to get used to the most peculiar sight of all these hippie guys wearing skirts, urm.





calliopeharmony.blogspot.com
Recent photos

Brooke Smith
06-07-2008, 06:49 AM
Calliope, what an interesting essay. I can't honestly say I understood it all. At times I thought Bobbi was you. Then I thought she was me. The truth is,it's not easy being green.

deja true
06-07-2008, 07:09 AM
Love is the hardest thing to find, isn't it? And it often seems that the harder we search, the more disappointment we find.

When we finally become resigned and calm down though, is when the arrow strikes. You never know!

Noone ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Please keep telling us about the 'drama' of Twin Oaks. It's better than General Hospital!

melissaK
06-09-2008, 09:56 AM
Hmmm. Through the story of Bobbi, you weave in a larger theme - - is Twin Oaks a large enough population in which to find a soul mate?

I'd think a small community presents that problem to all. Assuming the most common are persons possessing interests in opposite natal gender mates, then, I'd expect it would be increasingly difficult for for those who vary from that most common interest.

Hmmm. Will the mutual difficulties in mate selection result in individuals altering their criteria to broaden the candidate pool? Will the forced closeness of communal living break down cultural barriers that members arrived with? A version of "any port in a storm?" I am sure anthropologists and cultural analysts have thought about, and written about, such things in studies of human behavior already.

Might be worth looking up in a library somewhere and comparing it with your ongoing experience.

hugs,
'lissa

Calliope
06-11-2008, 10:36 AM
Hmmm. Through the story of Bobbi, you weave in a larger theme - - is Twin Oaks a large enough population in which to find a soul mate?


Yes, there's the emotional part of the piece. Part of it, a definite factor, is my age. I mean, my best friend Madge, she's also 49 (and way hornier than me!) has been here some 10 years and she's frustrated by her single status. A little reminder to me, it might not always be my crazy hormones and strong opinions scaring off the boys. Although, thinking about it, Madge also has crazy hormones and strong opinions, too. Stay tuned.

Calliope
06-12-2008, 10:30 PM
When Valerie concluded her recollections, I spoke a bit about this essay, and Valerie noticed I referred to Bobbi once as “he.” I was stunned, I had not noticed doing so at all, but I had to admit, there it was, my bias.* I found myself in tune with Twin Oaks’ narrative of Bobbi (quotes presently shed). So all that’s left is me trying to get used to the most peculiar sight of all these hippie guys wearing skirts, urm.

* Now, here’s another funny thing. Madge introduced me to her very dear friend Shayne, a FtM, and we all did a dinner shift together, cool. But I could not stop thinking of him as her. And still can’t. When Shayne asked if he could play some tunes, I was all for it, curious to hear his music. For me, music is the key to the (gender) persona. First thing up, Dar Williams. I’m thinking, no way any man is up on Dar Williams, that’s classic progressive feminist (even lesbian) folk music (great stuff, btw), but only women know about Dar Williams. So, I cannot stop thinking of him ~ as her. Sorry, however many male hormones you syringe into your body, Dar Williams gives it away, you’re all girl. Maybe, should we meet again, play some, I don’t know, John Mayer or Dire Straits perhaps, and I’ll give it another go. You’re trans, I guess, with a long way to go. I really don’t understand trans at all.

ZenFrost
06-13-2008, 12:04 AM
For me, music is the key to the (gender) persona. First thing up, Dar Williams. I’m thinking, no way any man is up on Dar Williams, that’s classic progressive feminist (even lesbian) folk music (great stuff, btw), but only women know about Dar Williams. So, I cannot stop thinking of him ~ as her. Sorry, however many male hormones you syringe into your body, Dar Williams gives it away, you’re all girl.

I'm sorry, but that's got to be one of the more ridiculous things I've ever heard. Implying that by listening to certain music, you can't be a certain gender? For one thing, you're saying that men can't be feminists or even know about feminist music? Read this (http://www.smc.edu/voices/forerunner/volume1_3/1_3politics/malefem.htm) for starters. Or this (http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/malefeministmenstruation.html) one. Men have every right to feminist music as women do, and saying we don't is kinda contradicting the whole equality thing most feminism's about, isn't it? :raisedeyebrow:

I mean, really, that's like saying that women can't listen to heavy metal or men to pop; I've known more than a few who did so and never thought any less of their genders for it. People's genders aren't defined by their music any more than they are their tastes in food or furniture, and I fail to see how liking sushi and bean bag chairs would make me any less or more of a man. :raisedeyebrow:

John
06-13-2008, 04:44 AM
* Now, here’s another funny thing. Madge introduced me to her very dear friend Shayne, a FtM, and we all did a dinner shift together, cool. But I could not stop thinking of him as her. And still can’t. When Shayne asked if he could play some tunes, I was all for it, curious to hear his music. For me, music is the key to the (gender) persona. First thing up, Dar Williams. I’m thinking, no way any man is up on Dar Williams, that’s classic progressive feminist (even lesbian) folk music (great stuff, btw), but only women know about Dar Williams. So, I cannot stop thinking of him ~ as her. Sorry, however many male hormones you syringe into your body, Dar Williams gives it away, you’re all girl. Maybe, should we meet again, play some, I don’t know, John Mayer or Dire Straits perhaps, and I’ll give it another go. You’re trans, I guess, with a long way to go. I really don’t understand trans at all.

I agree with Zen, that's the one of the most bizare and insulting thing I've ever seen here.

Firstly, I think non of us here are in a position to say 'you can't do that, only girls can do that' (that's hipocritical as hell). Men can like girly stuff, women can like masculin stuff, or have we started bying into 'men can only like men stuf' here?

Secondly, if only women can be 'up on' Dar Williams, let's remember that FTMs live a (sometimes sugnificant) portion of their lives as femail. Is it so unbeleavable that an ftm living as femail could get into some 'great stuff' music that men don't usually come across, and then not dismis it out of hand when the transition because, after all, it's 'great stuff'?

Kieron Andrew
06-13-2008, 08:36 AM
* Now, here’s another funny thing. Madge introduced me to her very dear friend Shayne, a FtM, and we all did a dinner shift together, cool. But I could not stop thinking of him as her. And still can’t. When Shayne asked if he could play some tunes, I was all for it, curious to hear his music. For me, music is the key to the (gender) persona. First thing up, Dar Williams. I’m thinking, no way any man is up on Dar Williams, that’s classic progressive feminist (even lesbian) folk music (great stuff, btw), but only women know about Dar Williams. So, I cannot stop thinking of him ~ as her. Sorry, however many male hormones you syringe into your body, Dar Williams gives it away, you’re all girl. Maybe, should we meet again, play some, I don’t know, John Mayer or Dire Straits perhaps, and I’ll give it another go. You’re trans, I guess, with a long way to go. I really don’t understand trans at all.

Wow, ive heard some insulting things in my time on this board directed at FtMs from MtFs, but this really tops them all!!...what god given right do you have to say that just because someone listens to a type of music they are not male...what gives you...another trans person a right to stereotype transmen...wow! im insulted for this person!!

CaptLex
06-13-2008, 08:37 AM
Now, here’s another funny thing. . . .

Sorry, however many male hormones you syringe into your body, Dar Williams gives it away, you’re all girl.
Yeah that's hilarious :rolleyes:


I really don’t understand trans at all.
No I guess you don't and that's a shame if you're gonna post in this section. :straightface:

GypsyKaren
06-13-2008, 09:03 AM
So this is what Utopia is about...bigotry, snobbery, and of course, stupidity.

Karen Starlene :star:

Adam
06-13-2008, 10:06 AM
* Now, here’s another funny thing. Madge introduced me to her very dear friend Shayne, a FtM, and we all did a dinner shift together, cool. But I could not stop thinking of him as her. And still can’t. When Shayne asked if he could play some tunes, I was all for it, curious to hear his music. For me, music is the key to the (gender) persona. First thing up, Dar Williams. I’m thinking, no way any man is up on Dar Williams, that’s classic progressive feminist (even lesbian) folk music (great stuff, btw), but only women know about Dar Williams. So, I cannot stop thinking of him ~ as her. Sorry, however many male hormones you syringe into your body, Dar Williams gives it away, you’re all girl. Maybe, should we meet again, play some, I don’t know, John Mayer or Dire Straits perhaps, and I’ll give it another go. You’re trans, I guess, with a long way to go. I really don’t understand trans at all.[/SIZE]

So because of his taste in music he is not a man what a load of crap that is i mean i listen to lots of music i dont no who sings them i dont even look but if i like the tunes i listen to them most of my family like the same sort of music male and female alike so whats the deal there then?

And even before Syringeing hormones into the body as you put it transmen are male as soon as they come out as male.

And you dont understand trans at all wow no kidding you dont!!!

As for writeing your all girl thats just plain rude

Cai
06-13-2008, 10:23 AM
Bobbi recommended a “good gender clinic” in Virginia should I wish to score some hormones. When I said I didn’t need any medical intervention since I already (always) was female,[...]


Sorry, however many male hormones you syringe into your body, Dar Williams gives it away, you’re all girl.

I'm sensing a double standard here...

Sharon
06-13-2008, 11:30 AM
Let this be a lesson to all of us -- even Trans People can be dumb (I was prepared to use a more descriptive word but I'm in a "nice" mood today.)

And we roll our eyes at some of the things posted in other sections sometimes. :rolleyes:

melissaK
06-15-2008, 02:43 PM
Girls! Guys! What's with the flames? Calliope can't express her thoughts sans judgment and borderline ridicule?

hugs,
'lissa

John
06-15-2008, 04:28 PM
She's welcome to expres her thoughts politly. I think indignation and arguments are to be expected when she insults and belittles a group of people in a forum they use.

I would expect a similar responce if I ever said, say, that transwomen that like acdc (for example) where really men.

GypsyKaren
06-15-2008, 07:40 PM
Girls! Guys! What's with the flames? Calliope can't express her thoughts sans judgment and borderline ridicule?

hugs,
'lissa

Not when they're nothing but insults, sorry.

Karen Starlene :star:

CaptLex
06-15-2008, 08:34 PM
Girls! Guys! What's with the flames? Calliope can't express her thoughts sans judgment and borderline ridicule?

hugs,
'lissa
Take another look, Melissa, the judgment and ridicule came from her post - we're the ones trying to put out the flames.

Valeria
06-16-2008, 05:05 AM
Since others have already jumped all over the "all girl" comments (because heaven forbid someone's musical tastes aren't *strictly* gendered), let me just respond to one other section...


And I go with Bobbi’s description of herself: transgendered. I’m a woman with too much testosterone. (But Bobbi’s got way more than I ~ so much more hormones become mandatory. That’s a difference between us.) I knew Bobbi’s narrative real well because it played like a million forum entries I’ve seen over the years {never once sharing recipes, I might add}. Me, I’m not transanything. I couldn’t “overcompensate” to save my life (so I deserted the Navy). And, chasing women ~ nothing I could ever pull off ~ seems, at this point in my liberation, ludicrous.* I’m not queeranything. I’m actually fairly reactionary ~ I used to think “if ya need hormones to become a woman, maybe you’re not,” now I guess if ya need ’em, you’re trans ~ thinking just like any straight old broad out of my generational timezone.**
First off, I'm amazed that anyone would brag that they were so naturally feminine that they would never "overcompensate", citing their desertion from the navy as evidence. I mean, you signed up in the first place, didn't you? And they had you classified as male, correct? While you were off playing sailor, I had long hair, earrings, a lesbian lover, and ID with a female name on it - so who was "overcompensating"? Of course, you've got some weird homophobic anti-queer thing going on anyway, so you probably think being a man in the navy is more innately feminine than dating as a lesbian girl. :rolleyes:

This whole elitist "I don't need hormones because I'm a real woman" nonsense is just insulting. Natal females take estradiol and progesterone. Some females even take progesterone while trying to get pregnant. So what, does that make cisfemales that take hormones "trans"?!? Obviously not. I doubt you are naturally more feminine than many trans females who choose to take hormones. I also doubt you are more natural in your presentation or more innately feminine in your personality.

I take female hormones because they make me feel *right*, and because they make my endocrine system more female (keep in mind that I was already intersexed in a way that altered how my endocrine system functions). I take female hormones because I am postoperative and have no innate source of primary sex hormones, so I need them for medical reasons. That doesn't make me "trans", and it certainly doesn't make me less of a woman than you.

Whatever. It's transparent that all of this is just a reflection of your need to rationalize and justify your unwillingness to make your body more female by taking hormones or having surgery. See the thing is, I don't really care what you do to your body. I just don't understand why insecure people try to tear down those who choose differently than them in some vain attempt to salve their own insecurities...

Whether it's a post-op woman denigrating someone that chooses not to have surgery, or someone afraid to take hormones mocking those that do, it's just wrong.

Valeria
06-16-2008, 05:26 AM
BTW, what is the real point of your little diatribe about Bobbi?

I mean, I'm happy you vibe more female to your friends than someone who's apparently quite large and extremely masculine physically (and perhaps socially). But so what?

It's been years since I was misgendered, on the phone or in person. In fact, it's only happened a few times in my entire adult life. All of my colleagues, classmates, and patients think I'm a natal female. That doesn't prove that I'm more of a woman than someone that doesn't get gendered female as consistently as me - it just shows that I'm genetically lucky, and that I've spent many years getting socialized as a woman.

While Bobbi may have had some socialization issues, a huge part of the difference in how you two were perceived doubtless comes from the fact that transphobia and bigotry is a lot stronger against large-bodied trans women with masculine frames than it is towards smaller, slimmer trans women. The more female you look, the more normally people will treat you (and I'd be shocked if the reverse wasn't true for trans males). See, if I'd gone to Twin Oaks, none of this would ever even have come up, because they'd never have known I had a trans history, and thus Bobbi would never have been mentioned.

goofus
06-19-2008, 12:49 AM
Girls! Guys! What's with the flames? Calliope can't express her thoughts sans judgment and borderline ridicule?

hugs,
'lissa

I second the motion...

Cai
06-19-2008, 01:17 AM
I second the motion...

She's totally free to express her opinion. And if I have the opinion that she's being biased, intolerant, and borderline transphobic, I'm totally free to express that as well. That's how it works.

GypsyKaren
06-19-2008, 07:15 AM
Since the thread starter doesn't feel it's necessary to respond to this, I don't think it's necessary to keep it open.

GK :star: