FTM - Your Unique Perspective

[Tree GG]

Capt's recent thread made mention of peeps slipping up and "treating him as a girl". What that means is debated back-n-forth in MTF all the time, and quite honestly, I am one of the many that just don't get it. GK makes mention in the thread that she "just feels like me". I get that as I rarely feel otherwise. But the whole "boys do this", "girls do that" concept is difficult for me to grasp beyond the superficial stuff.

FTM's may have a unique perspective that I haven't queried yet and could learn from. So to Capt and all the guys, what actions or comments do you receive that make you feel like you're being treated like a girl that don't happen when you feel you're being accepted as male?

[CaptLex]

Hi Tree :wave:

I agree that there really isn't much difference - or shouldn't be. What I meant by that is the condescending way some people act around me which is usually reserved for females and men aren't generally subjected to. For example, I was talking to our office manager the other day. He's one of the first people I came out to and knows the whole situation. He always calls me Lex and is friendly and helpful, but he still slips and calls me "honey" sometimes :doh: (I KNOW he doesn't do that to any guys), and sometimes tries to do the hand-on-the-back thing I've seen him get away with when talking to women but (again) never does to the guys. :rolleyes:

So I don't mean that women should be treated one way and men another, just that some people do treat each differently and from their treatment of me I can sometimes tell that they still consider me female. I hope that makes sense - if not, let me know. :)

[Cai]

I definitely agree with the patronizing behavior, and the lack of respect for personal space. I met a group of people a couple weeks ago, sat and talked and had dinner. At the end of the evening, one of the guys (I've known these people for 3 hours, mind) hugged me, doing the whole "peck on the cheek" thing, and says "Drive safe, hon." And no, he wasn't doing it to any of the people he perceived as guys.

Plus, there's an assumption as a guy that I can handle myself. I was buying furniture at Target a while back, and clearly struggling with an over-weight box. Sales associate walks by the end of the aisle, pauses and makes eye contact (my chance to ask for help), and then kept walking. In similar situations where I've been perceived female, even if I'm not struggling help is offered (and people won't take no for an answer sometimes).

[GypsyKaren]

I just want to jump in here real quick since I was mentioned, so please let me know if anyone prefers I didn't and I'll delete this.

It's one thing to "just feel like me", but dealing with the rudeness and ignorance of others is totally different and it does piss me off. I'm ok with the fact that I rarely pass, and I realize that the public at large doesn't know I'm a post-op, but what part of me in a skirt and living and presenting as a woman makes it look like I want to be called "sir"? I think this is something along the lines of what the guys have to put up with, but it's worse for them because they also get it here of all places.

Karen Starlene :star:

[SirTrey]

I just want to jump in here real quick since I was mentioned, so please let me know if anyone prefers I didn't and I'll delete this.

It's one thing to "just feel like me", but dealing with the rudeness and ignorance of others is totally different and it does piss me off. I'm ok with the fact that I rarely pass, and I realize that the public at large doesn't know I'm a post-op, but what part of me in a skirt and living and presenting as a woman makes it look like I want to be called "sir"? I think this is something along the lines of what the guys have to put up with, but it's worse for them because they also get it here of all places.

Karen Starlene :star:

Hey Karen...I suppose the same part of Me that makes them want to call Me "Maam" sometimes even though I have a full moustache, facial stubble, wear all male clothing, and My voice has dropped considerably....but I have come up with a solution that I intend to implement from now on...whenever people call Me "Maam", I am going to respond by getting THEIR gender wrong....hopefully, they will get it.....:) If they want to think they can peg gender, so can I? Want to see the face of the next waiter I call "Maam" or the perky blonde waitress who gets called "Sir"....:) Cause if you don't know, you should shut up....Period.

[Kieron Andrew]

but what part of me in a skirt and living and presenting as a woman makes it look like I want to be called "sir"? I think this is something along the lines of what the guys have to put up with, but it's worse for them because they also get it here of all places.

thats it in a nutshell for me, im not and never have been a 'she' contray to what my body says to people....the sooner people get pass this idea that female bodied persons equates to 'she', 'her', ma'am and male bodied equates to 'he', 'him', 'sir'...and realise the gender boundries are far more blurred and merged than that & that being transgender (broad spectrum) isnt about the outer appearence its the inner soul that counts the better....Ive always said pronouns should be banned when dealing with people, cos one can never assume the person you are talking to isn't trans, e.g. what's wrong with saying 'have a good day' instead of 'have a good day, sir/ma'am...you have to look deeper to truly know how a person identifies sometimes

[Kieron Andrew]

Hey Karen...I suppose the same part of Me that makes them want to call Me "Maam" sometimes even though I have a full moustache, facial stubble, wear all male clothing, and My voice has dropped considerably....but I have come up with a solution that I intend to implement from now on...whenever people call Me "Maam", I am going to respond by getting THEIR gender wrong....hopefully, they will get it.....:) If they want to think they can peg gender, so can I? Want to see the face of the next waiter I call "Maam" or the perky blonde waitress who gets called "Sir"....:) Cause if you don't know, you should shut up....Period.
dont call them a wrong gender that makes you just as bad, because you also could be wrong, how do you know they dont feel trans....just correct them everytime they do it..just say 'no actually its sir!'

[SirTrey]

dont call them a wrong gender that makes you just as bad, because you also could be wrong, how do you know they dont feel trans....just correct them everytime they do it..just say 'no actually its sir!'

I know, I know....I'm just so sick of it.....and you're right....but, the flip side is, if they are aware of gender issues at all, they should know to stay away from gender, period....so odds are that most of them, when they look at Me, if they ARE gender sensitive or have gender issues, would peg Me as trans....I have more freaking facial hair than a "woman" will ever get....and My mannerisms are overtly male....ergo....I will try it both ways and see.....but sometimes it's done in an over the top manner because they are smartasses....and I will deal with people like that in kind....:) Also, I am a good tipper, as you know....may start deducting 1% for every female pronoun thrown at Me, LOL.....I am just really sick of it. Like I said, if you don't know, shut up. Period.

[GypsyKaren]

My standard reply is "I'm not a sir", I think I'll get it tattooed on my forehead to save time...and with that, I'll leave the rest to the guys.

Karen Starlene :star:

[John]

When people call me miss or ma'm, I find a confused look behing me, and a slightly affrounted 'sorry, where you talking to me then?' tends to do the trick nine out of ten.


what actions or comments do you receive that make you feel like you're being treated like a girl that don't happen when you feel you're being accepted as male?

Holding doors so you don't even have to touch them, automaticaly paying bills, insisting to help with lifting ect (as cai said) and walking you home (or needing to know you got home) are typically behaviours directed towards women by men. (When was the last time you sore anyone offer to walk a man home to keep him safe - drunk to buggery excluded of cause:heehee:) So when you get that behaviour, the chanses are they thing you're a girl.

Other women tend to ask you about 'girl-stuff' and talk about 'girl-things' (and ask if you want to go to the bathroom. Never understood that) far more if they see you as femail. Or 'just us girls' type coments (don't think I don't notise them in this section either ;) )

And so the reverse tends to be true when people see you as men. Also, in my experience, if someone speaks to you in the gents, chanses are they don't think you should be there (that or they're propersitioning you)

[CaptLex]

My standard reply is "I'm not a sir", I think I'll get it tattooed on my forehead to save time...
I know what you mean, Karen. I'm so tired of saying, "it's sir" to every "ma'am" or "mister" to every "miss" - I just wanna hire somebody to walk with me and do the correcting. Trey's right, its frustratingly repetitive. :doh:

Tree, John also brought up a good point about women bringing up "female" topics, but it amuses me that the opposite is also now true for me. If I'm in the presence of a group of women (which happens often in my office), sometimes they'll stop talking about makeup or somebody's new shoes or something when I get there. I don't know if they're afraid I'll feel insulted or don't want me to feel excluded from the conversation. :idontknow:

I find it funny actually, especially 'cause I like to give fashion advice. :heehee:

[ZenFrost]

One thing I've noticed when not passing in certain circumstances is being treated condescendingly. I think it has less to do with me being perceived as a woman and more to do with me being perceived as a woman wearing men's clothes. One particular incident of late, I went to a play and the door to get outside was kinda finicky and sticky. When I was going in I passed (got called sir) so when I struggled a moment with the door, the people behind me waited for me to get it open so we could all go in. But when leaving, I wasn't passing (got called miss) and instead of letting me push past the stuck part of the door, the guy behind me came up, moved me out of the way, got the door open, and then condescendingly told me it just needed some 'muscle.'

So people offering to lift heavy things because they don't think I can, or otherwise treating me like I'm of a 'weaker sex,' versus just leaving me be to do my own stuff. That's really just the classic sexist stuff that irritates me no matter who it's directed at.

And like John said there's the people trying to talk to me about 'girl stuff' which does not happen when I'm being passed as male.

[melissaK]

If I'm in the presence of a group of women (which happens often in my office), sometimes they'll stop talking about makeup or somebody's new shoes or something when I get there. I don't know if they're afraid I'll feel insulted or don't want me to feel excluded from the conversation. :idontknow::

The silent treatment might be acts of affirming your male presence. I'm 50 something and in my generation of girls, they more often than not stop talking about girl stuff when guys are around. Don't know why, they just do. At parties guys go to the barbecue or TV and gather and talk guy stuff; girls go to the kitchen or dining room and talk girl stuff; the exception tending to be hosts who feel duty bound to interact with all, and couples who are so into each other, for whatever reasons, that they can't break body contact. My work place experiences are the same. Female secretaries go on breaks together with the few female managers and they sit together and talk about different things than the few male clerks and male managers do.

hugs,
'lissa

[CaptLex]

The silent treatment might be acts of affirming your male presence. I'm 50 something and in my generation of girls, they more often than not stop talking about girl stuff when guys are around. Don't know why, they just do.
Maybe . . . who knows? :thinking:

But it's just silly to me. Especially 'cause most of them have known me for 11+ years and they know that I have no problem talking about lots of the stuff they talk about. After all, I lived as a straight female for over 40 years so I can dish about jewelry, makeup and men just as well as the rest of 'em. ;)


At parties guys go to the barbecue or TV and gather and talk guy stuff; girls go to the kitchen or dining room and talk girl stuff; the exception tending to be hosts who feel duty bound to interact with all, and couples who are so into each other, for whatever reasons, that they can't break body contact.
I know what you mean, Melissa, I've seen that segregation at too many gatherings and it has always annoyed me. If someone is an interesting conversationalist, then I'm going to want to talk to him or her regardless of gender, so I just don't get that. :idontknow:


My work place experiences are the same. Female secretaries go on breaks together with the few female managers and they sit together and talk about different things than the few male clerks and male managers do.

hugs,
'lissa
I guess it's me then - just never been into "girl talk" or "boy talk". I like to talk to anybody who won't bore me regardless of age, gender, race, religious affiliation, sexual orientation or nationality, you know?

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

I have a perfect example of this...

On Tuesday, I helped sandbag the downtown so it wasn't destroyed by the flooding... which for anyone who has never sandbagged, is heavy, dirty work.

Now.... this was in my hometown, where I grew up. I know a lot of people, and they know me, but it IS big enough that there are plenty of people who don't know me.

The three relevant experiences I had were these: (1) When I was first waiting to be bussed in, I was talking to a (clearly gay) man named Ben who took one look at me and assumed butch lesbian. When we got to the site, he expected me to lift just as much or more than him. (2) The guys shoveling the sand, however, assumed I was a young guy, and thus basically threw sand at me. This changed however, when an old classmate saw me and shouted my full (female) name. :doh: (3) I quickly got uncomfortable with the number of people who knew me as "her" in that area, so I quickly found another job lifting the bags at the river's edge. I actually joined the start of the line, so I lifted the bags up from the ground (to spare the older gentleman who had been doing it for awhile) and after awhile he asked me, "So... how old are you?" I answered honestly - 19 - and he looked surprised and said, "Wow, son, you could've passed for a lot younger." :D Throughout the rest of the time, I was allowed to bear the full weight of the bags when perceived male. When perceived female, though, I was "helped" a lot more. :rolleyes:

It's that kind of thing that always tells you what people see you as.

[Tree GG]

Thanks, everyone for your input (even you GK :D)

Interesting how the word 'condescending' came up a few times. I had to consciously avoid that word when composing the original post.

Puzzling, that if we partially define being treated as a female to be a condescending attitude, why would anyone go in search of that? Puzzling, indeed.

Thanks to all. :hugs: