Do we cause our own discrimination?

[Kiera]

Having been, "Out of the closet," for about two years now, I have become a recluse. At first, as it was not my choice to be out and I went thru a bit of a mental breakdown of sorts....
I thought that if I was truthful to everyone about who I am then the people who truely loved me and my friends would simply accept me for being the person that they had always known...
As I learned the hard way that is not always the case... In my situation at least.
I suppose that all the years of denial and hiding made the people I called my dearest friends associate my male persona with who "I" really was... I tried my entire life to be the picture perfect male. I succeded in convincing everyone so well that when the truth actually came out that I am not, in there eyes I was simply a deciever, dishonest, perhaps perverted, or even a bit crazy...
So in a sence I am my own worst enemy....
And now that I have basically no contact with any of my former friends and several members of my family, it occurs to me that I spent most of my life inadvertently leading my self to disaster by concealing my true self from the world. The same people may or may not have called themselves my friends, but reguardless of that...
Do we cause our own discrimination???
hugs,
Kiera

[Kristy_Iowa_CD]

I'm sorry to hear about your loss of friends and family Kiera, but I don't think we cause our own discrimination as you put it.

I am still in the closet for the very reason you describe. However, with me, I believe (or maybe know intuitively) that there are several close friends that I would lose if I came out. I also know that although my wife and family would accept it, they would be distraught and it would cause a lot of tension in my relationships with them.

I think all of that is because of who they are though, and not because I have chosen to associate myself with them. I'm not trying to blame them or judge them, its simply a matter of people are who they are. Everyone is different, and unfortunately, some can never change.

I have a very close friend I've know for years. He is incredibly generous, a caring and devoted husband and father, and a great guy to drink a few beers with, but he is also homophobic and racist. Not in an overt way obviously (he is not a member of any radical political group or anything), he is just very uncomfortable around people who are "not like him" (i.e. white and straight).

I know I can never change him. He must change himself, so I don't even try, but I also would never give him up as a friend.

[Donna Michelle]

Kiera, I understand your point. My story is similar. But we wouldn't have hid in the closet, if society would have been more accepting of crossdressers in the first place.

I was tired of hiding Donna in the closet and coming out meant losing some family and friends. It also meant making new friends who accept me for who I am.


I have a very close friend I've know for years. He is incredibly generous, a caring and devoted husband and father, and a great guy to drink a few beers with, but he is also homophobic and racist. Not in an overt way obviously (he is not a member of any radical political group or anything), he is just very uncomfortable around people who are "not like him" (i.e. white and straight).

I know I can never change him. He must change himself, so I don't even try, but I also would never give him up as a friend.

This is a weird story, but I understand it. I always admired my mother who raised 7 children by herself. My father was a truck driver who was never home. They divorced and he never cared about his children.

When I came out a few months ago, my mother was furious and disowned me. She insulted me and made me cry, then never spoke to me again. I still love her, but I had to be honest to be happy with myself. I am much happier out of the closet, but I miss my mom.

My wife hoped she would apologize and have unconditional love for her child. She is 81 and will probably die before apologizing to me for her insults. She found my girl clothes many times in my childhood and knew I was wearing them, but she refuses to accept my CDing.

The sad thing is we suspect gay relatives who are still in the closet, because their parents don't tolerate gays, either. They accept me and know I accept them. I guess at my age I thought I could do them a favor. At least they know they can be who they are around me.

[christinac]

You have friends and you have acquaintances. A friend as in a true friend will always stand behind you right or wrong no matter what and they are not going to care if you are male or female or straight, homo, or bi.

It's a sad fact, but you never really truly know who your friends really are until all the chips are down and all the cards are laid out on the table.

As for the question: Do we cause our own discrimination? I honestly don't believe one bit that we do. I'd say that 90% of all discrimination is the direct result of uneducated people who refuse to have an open mind to learn something new whether it be a person, place, thing, or idea.

[Tasha T]

I'm sorry to hear about all the relationships that you lost and the position it's put you in. Honesty is supposed to be the best policy, but sometimes it doesn't work out the way we hope. If I came out like you did to everyone, I imagine I would have the same exact results...only I'm already a recluse.

I do not think that we cause our own discrimination. I think that society's disapproval of crossdressing in general puts us in a position where we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we are honest with others and tell them about our crossdressing, we risk being misunderstood, hated, betrayed, abandoned, made fun of, etc. and if we keep it to ourselves then we live a secret life where we are afraid of being found out and have relationships with others that aren't completely genuine.

I also think it's amazing the behavior we'll tolerate in others to keep them as friends, but how little they'll tolerate ours. For example, I have a friend who is judgmental, arrogant, lazy, a lawsuit happy scam artist and forces his beliefs on others. Now I don't approve of any of those things, yet I overlook them and keep him as a friend because of other qualities he brings to the relationship that overshadow them. In other words, I accept him for who is as a person...the good, the bad, and the ugly. Would I get the same treatment in reverse? No. He would drop me in a second if knew I was a crossdresser.

[Emily Anderson]

Kiera,

It's a real pity to hear about your predicament. I sincerely hope that time will heal some of those wounds, and that your family and and at least a few of your friends will come back to you after they realize that you're still you!

As to causing our own discrimination, I do believe that we are capable of making people feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I don't know your circumstances, so I cannot comment specifically. However, I do know from experience that the timing and the way in which information is revealed can have a huge effect (positive or negative) on others. So, yes, I do believe we can cause ourselves to be discriminated against.

[Kiera]

Thank you girls for your input.
Surely we can agree that had I been honest with myself from the start, I would have developed friendships based on who I really am instead of who I pretended to be right?
I am completely aware of the stigma that society has placed on people like us and perhaps there is no difinitive answer to my question, but I do know that if you run from a dog it will chase u. If you lie, it makes you a liar. And if you cannot find a way to overcome your fears they will eventually consume you.
More than an answer to my question I suppose I am seeking insight maybe courage or maybe self justification for taking kiera to the next level...
Hugs,
Kiera

[Kiera]

just a side note...

Thank you all for such deep thought filled replies!!!

What an amazing bunch of people we have here :)
Hugs,
Kiera

[Emily Anderson]

Surely we can agree that had I been honest with myself from the start, I would have developed friendships based on who I really am instead of who I pretended to be right?

No I don't agree, because you are you :) Unless of course, you have been acting very differently than how you really felt all your life. I can't imagine that anyone would be capable of living an entire life as an actor! What's the difference between now an then?

[docrobbysherry]

As a relatively recent CD, I may be completely off base with this. But,

have u ALWAYS wanted to live as a woman? Or has it just been that u have always felt a bit different from others? And just recently decided that living as a woman is what u want?

I think there's a huge difference between those two feelings! I have always felt different, and my friends accept that in me. As possibly yours did, too.

If I were to suddenly show up dressed at a function, and announce to one and all, that this is who I REALLY am, and have ALWAYS been. I would expect the same results as yours.

Because on the one hand, being a bit different from others, people CAN understand and accept.

On the other, if u suddenly show as a female, many people WILL feel that u have betrayed them. Others may just be repulsed be a "perversion" they don't understand, and will NEVER accept!

Kiera, look into your heart. If u have been deceiving others about wanting to present as a woman for much of your life, then u probably have been deceiving, or trying to deceive, yourself, too! You may have guilt because of that.

If it's a fairly recent decision, to present as a woman, then everyone is entitled to change who they r, as they mature! U should suffer no guilt from that decision!

[Kiera]

No I don't agree, because you are you :) Unless of course, you have been acting very differently than how you really felt all your life. I can't imagine that anyone would be capable of living an entire life as an actor! What's the difference between now an then?

Well, mostly that i no longer try to be a masculine man. Before I was out, i tried as hard as i could to prove to everyone including myself that I was a masculine man.. My male persona was a safety zone for me. The more masculine i acted the more safe i felt. I honestly believed that in doing so, nobody would ever find out that I liked to wear womens clothes, play with dolls, paint my toenails, and wiggle my butt when i walk down a long hallway...Football, wrestling, baseball, track, weight lifting, took up for anyone who was being bullied, joined the marines, and always always if my friends and I got into a scuffle I took on the big guy...
Yes I do act very very different now that I do not have to hide...
Hugs,
Kiera

[Deborah Jane]

I think a lot of us in an attempt to hide our "girl" side go to the opposite extreme and try to appear very much the macho male.

I did the same thing myself in an attempt to be "one of the guys".
I got heavily involved in things that are generally considered to be guy activities, but all the time i still had the urge to dress whenever i got the oppurtunity.
Eventually i couldn,t handle the secrecy any longer and came out to my now ex wife. Judging by her reaction, telling my friends would only result in me losing them as friends, the same as happened to you.

So i agree, in some ways we are our own worst enemies, but only because we are trying to fit in with societies expectations of us!!

[Kiera]

As a relatively recent CD, I may be completely off base with this. But,

have u ALWAYS wanted to live as a woman? Or has it just been that u have always felt a bit different from others? ... If u have been deceiving others about wanting to present as a woman for much of your life, then u probably have been deceiving, or trying to deceive, yourself, too! You may have guilt because of that.

If it's a fairly recent decision, to present as a woman, then everyone is entitled to change who they r, as they mature! U should suffer no guilt from that decision!

Yes I have always felt different. And yes it was sprung on everyone without any real notice... As far as always feeling that I wanted to present myself as a woman, I would have to say I dont know. I have dressed from a very young age and remember watching my mom when i was not much bigger than a toddler putting on her makeup and wanting to try it, but all the things you have said are true... I spent most of my life in denial, and untill the last few years felt guilty and ashamed of my dressing. Now I do not feel (as much) guilt or (as much) shame in being Kiera. But the expectations of my mother and step-father still weigh heavliy on my heart. They were very good to me and sacrificed alot for me to grow up in a loving and safe home. I do not want to loose them now and fear that further pursueing this will cause further damage to our relationships.
Hugs,
Kiera

[deja true]

Well, mostly that i no longer try to be a masculine man. Before I was out, i tried as hard as i could to prove to everyone including myself that I was a masculine man.. My male persona was a safety zone for me. The more masculine i acted the more safe i felt. I honestly believed that in doing so, nobody would ever find out that I liked to wear womens clothes, play with dolls, paint my toenails, and wiggle my butt when i walk down a long hallway...Football, wrestling, baseball, track, weight lifting, took up for anyone who was being bullied, joined the marines, and always always if my friends and I got into a scuffle I took on the big guy...
Yes I do act very very different now that I do not have to hide...
Hugs,
Kiera

This actually gives me encouragement about coming out to friends. (I have no family left.)

It seems that you feel that your hyper-masculine lifestyle choices, which you used to hide your feminine sensibilities, may have caused your friends to drop away! I certainly think you're right. Especialy, as you say, that you act very different now than you did while you were 'play acting' your macho self.

This echoes the stabbing hurt and shock that some wives experience when their macho husbands reveal themselves to them. The juxtaposition of two such widely varying personality types is just beyond comprehension, and the viewer can only think that somewhere in there is a big, big lie and a deception of monumental proportions. It also must figure that a hyper-masculine man will have like minded friends, who are NOT involved in hiding a second, feminine personality. Their ability to understand such a concept is, no doubt, close to zero.

Personally, I never went for the super macho role to hide my other self. How could I as a skinny, arty, hippy, quasi-intellectual! My role playing was not a thick veneer of activites and friendships that I really didn't like or have much in common with mentally. I admitted to softer pursuits and gentler interests...and it didn't get me labelled as gay or femme-y either. It got me labelled as sensitive, but still a man. Think Malkovitch or Depp, rather than Schwarzenegger or Diesel.

But this different role playing of mine, as I just come to understand from your heart-breaking opening post, may actually be the lead in to admitting to others the reality of deja. Some may actually expect such a thing! Most would not be surprised, especially since I've also discovered after 4 1/2 days en femme at the Be-All (the very first time I've ever been in public and been dressed for more than a few hours at a time), that deja's personality and what's-his-name's personality are one and the same! Except for modifying what's-his-name's walk and gestures and speech a very little bit, I made no changes to the way I communicate or think or react wth others. I had the revelation that deja and what's-his-name were actually one and the same person, basicaly just wearing different clothes.

If the friends I made at Be-All, who only ever saw deja, met what's-his-name for the first time, I think, they might not recognize the face or the body, but they would definitely recognize the personality.

If I am not mistaken, there may then, be some sort of correlation between the level of acceptance from a wife or family member and the level of machistic behaviour of the CD before the reveal: more masculine behaviour, less immediate acceptance. Less overtly characteristic masculine behaviour might result in less doubt and denial of the presence of a feminine personality (as in..."I always knew there was something in you that wasn't like other guys....Now I'm beginning to understand...".) Looking back at the stories of many who have revealed themselves, I'm going to look for a connection like this.

And so, as I said, I find encouragement here. I'm very sad that you have suffered the loss of friends and family. And, in your case, I think you might be right. Your early life just made it too hard for others to accept.

But for some of us, if my new hypothesis holds true, there might be hope in your story.

Thank you, dear one, and please remember that, even if you've lost a handful of friends where you are, you still have truckloads of them here!

respect & love,

deja

:<3:

[MJ]

Dear Kiera,
I too are sorry to hear about your loss of friends and family. and in a way i can relate to you . as i did the same as you .
i don't think this is the case i feel it's our friends who just don't chose to understand us .

BUT Remember this you have friends here with all of your sisters

[Tree GG]

I wouldn't use the word "discrimination" as the exact word, but I do agree that the loss of relationships, distress and anxiety many CDs experience upon 'coming out' is of their own making. Now I fully realize why the masculine personna is created....come to think of it, I don't like calling it 'masculine personna' either, but that's a topic for another thread. Anyway, I think the CD handbook should include:

#1 Come out gradually....not all at once. Give your loved ones the same luxury of time you had in learning to accept your TG side

#2 Come out only to those that need to know. If you don't plan on living 24/7 as a woman, EVERYONE in your life really doesn't need or want to hear about it.

#3 You have misrepresented yourself, your likes, your hopes, your dreams and your ideals to those that felt they could trust you with their lives. Even though no malice was intended, you led them (especially family) into a lifestyle they may be uncomfortable with. Now they're forced to choose between an uncomfortable lifestyle or giving up the person they love. Have a little sympathy and compassion for their dilemma.

#4 Do NOT talk bad about the male person you've been. Remember they love that guy.

Thanks, Kiera for making a sometimes difficult to admit (wives aren't the only ones in denial :D), but important point.

[Joanne f]

The odd thing is that my wife just read your post and at fist thought i had wrote it as she knows me well and knows that it would fit me , i am wondering if subconsciously we over compensate are male side to start with and are so called friends get use to this and we also get use to are so called friends thinking of us like that so when they find out maybe they feel that we were in some way lying to them about who we are and in some way could also make us want to hide away from them until we get some sort of sign that things are OK , in my case it has never help that i am really quite a shy person whereas if you are an extrovert it would not matter so much .



joanne

[sterling12]

Christina answered your post very well. In life we have many acquaintances but very few true friends. In fact, most of us are lucky if we have one or two in a whole lifetime. Many people will dispute that statement; but if you knew all of my criteria for "true friend," I think you would agree. But this thread isn't about what constitutes a true friend. Suffice it to say that you spent a lifetime perfecting that macho male persona, you collected acquaintances who were impressed by that "role" you played. Now that you have abandoned that role, they don't like that new person.

Here's an original idea...IT'S TIME TO GET SOME NEW FRIENDS! People who will understand and accept you for who you are. I don't know where you live, but I think it would be wise to investigate finding a support group. If you do, I can just about guarantee that you will find new people to socialize with. Heck, you might even make a new "true friend." If you can't find a group in your area, time to get on The Internet and find people who live in the vicinity; you have already made a start by coming to this forum. GLBT Clubs in the vicinity? That's a possibility. An agency that offers GLBT services to the community, another good place to make a new start.

The Point is to make that start, your only going to be as isolated if you allow yourself to be. There are millions of us out there, people who are "different." They play golf with their buddies, they play on softball teams too. They do all the "macho things." But, they also have a different side to their personality's....maybe they are just like you. Maybe, they are also looking for a friend.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[sandra-leigh]

i am wondering if subconsciously we over compensate are male side to start with and are so called friends get use to this and we also get use to are so called friends thinking of us like that so when they find out maybe they feel that we were in some way lying to them about who we are and in some way could also make us want to hide away from them until we get some sort of sign that things are OK

In my case, I doubt any of my friends "back home" know (I didn't start dressing until a decade after I Moved Away). On the other hand, while they might be a bit surprised, I doubt any of The Guys would be astonished -- I have long been the kind of fellow who does what he thinks best, not what is popular. Or, rather, if they were astonished, it would be that I turn out not to be as boring as they thought :heehee:

Would I "lose" any of my friends "back home" if I told them?

I think one of my "back home" friends would have a hard time handling it... he's a bit homophobic and a little misogynist; we suspect he might possibly be gay himself. One way or another, he'd likely have a hard time processing it.

One of my others... I think it would be a distinct sign to him that we are "growing apart". I don't think he would be upset as such, but he has the classical "successful person" characteristics and I don't and have turned my back on several of them... we've been evolving into different parts of society and this would be a clear signal that we're going to continue to diverge.

Another back home... I don't think he would mind and would probably be mildly interested and see the connection to the theatre work he's done (but he might not be egar to see me Dressed.)

Yet another... I think would be quite accepting and would be prepared to see me Dressed.

[jennifer41356]

I guess I cant relate to this, my parents and siblings dont live here in Dallas so i figure they dont need to know anything, I can go a week without being a girl when i visit them...I never had a lot of close male friends so i guess i didnt really lose any, the one or two I know and keep in touch with, i dont see very often...I guess i am lucky that I have about 7 or so good friends who know both sides and have no problem with either.... I have found that younger folks tend to be more open, I have 4 or 5 friends who are in the late 20's to early 30's.... my advice would be to find new friends to develop new relationships and go out and have fun

[Mona]

Kiera, I am saddened by your loss of friends by being yourself. In a more perfect world your hesitation and denial, then eventual acceptence would have been seen as normal human behavior and your friendships would not have been treatened. Just know that your being Kiera and sharing in this forum is helping us towards that more perfect world, if even just a little bit.
Hugs, Mona

[chaotropic]

exactly how can we expect to be truthful to all those around us when feminine behavior in men is so ubiquitously, vehemently admonished?

it takes a lifetime coming to terms with it yourself, so granted others who have no compulsion toward it will be harder to reach.

I am trying to get used to the idea that my family and friends will abandon me whenever I find the courage to be myself. if those who I think love me cannot stick with me because I'm breaking some social mores, then perhaps they do not love me at all.

[Kiera]

So after reading all of your posts, I find myself drying tears from my face. Why exactly I am crying I do not know and will not attempt to understand. I will not mention you all by name but thank you very much for taking the time to respond to this thread. Clearly some of the stereotypes I have heard of those like us is true. You are all gifted individuals with a higher level of insight than most of the "normal" people can ever claim.
Hugs,
Kiera

[Fab Karen]

"they're forced to choose between an uncomfortable lifestyle or giving up the person they love. Have a little sympathy and compassion for their dilemma."

Their choice is loving or hating.



if those who I think love me cannot stick with me because I'm breaking some social mores, then perhaps they do not love me at all.

EXACTLY.

[Sarah...]

I recognise myself in your first post however I disagree that we discriminate against ourselves in the way you describe. If your experience is anything like mine you were living a life composed of a mixture of your genuine personality and the social norms generated by society and your subconcious acceptance of those norms as a member of that society. This is a really difficult thing to work against. Although I CAN say it is possible to act the masculine side to the max for a very long time. I nearly lost my dearest relationship from this acting and burying the majority of my personality from view, the bits that didn't accord with the social norms.

It may be that the way we choose to or are enabled to or are encouraged to express our true selves determines the reaction we receive.

I guess that it's the same as anything, the true test of your mettle is how you respond to this situation that are in. Girl, there are plenty of friends out there to be made, loads of friends here to offer support and huge numbers of people who genuinely aren't blinkered or bigoted. You're gorgeous, hold your head up high and embrace life wherever it takes you.

Love and big hugs

Sarah...

[bimini1]

I dunno about the whole p.ple are discriminate because they are ignorant/uneducated. In my experience the more they seem to learn about it the more they seem to hate it. I also don't necessarily see a 'friend' as someone who will always accept what you are doing and tell you what you want to hear. A true friend is someone who is going to be honest with you and try to help you 'check yourself before you wreck yourself'. Someone who might counsel you about behavior that is not only an embarassment to them but you also. Do I like it, no. Is that the real world? Yes it is.

[Leslie Foxx]

I shared you fears and learned who my friends really are. Many took it well, and others felt and continue to feel uncomfortable. I found interaction with the T community has made an entirely new circle of friends. Friends who understand the challenges of being different. Friends you don't have to posture for. You can't make any more old friends, but don't close the door on making new ones.

[TGMarla]

I'm sorry you lost all your friends. That sucks. It is for just this reason that I keep my CDing to myself, except for when I'm here on the forum. Just because people are friends or relatives doesn't mean they need to know everything there is to know about me. There are things that people just don't need to know, and this is at the top of that list.

If I were to divulge my feminine interests to friends, they might well feel very differently about me. That's not necessarily their fault, either. Much of a person's reaction to such a revelation is the result of learned behavior. Just as they have learned that association with people such as us is to be shunned, we as a whole have learned to keep shut about it and not spill our little secret to the whole world. Too bad, really. Even open minded people have parts of their minds that are closed.

I choose to not tell other people that I crossdress. They just don't need to know.