I give up!

[DemonicDaughter]

I've been debating posting this for a few days now but think perhaps it should be addressed. I'm well aware that many may not care and others will continue anyway but I have to try.

See, numerous times I've been asked if I have any GG friends that are as interested in Tgurls as I am. And indeed I did. But as I sent them to these forums they seemed to have lost interest. I had no idea why and assumed that when presented with the idea in reality, that it suddenly didn't appeal to them. Well, an email from the last person I sent here rather clarified things for me.

Seems she stumbled across a few threads that she took rather offensively. They talked about how CDers were more feminine than GGs, put GGs down for how they dress in today's society, or made statements that implied GGs aren't feminine or womanly enough and that the CDers are.

According to her email, she felt that there was too much competition and she had no desire to date anyone that couldn't accept her for who she was. She made several references regarding specific posts and stated that for a group of people who want to be accepted for who they really are, these posts reflected quite poorly on the whole. When I tried to argue that it isn't all CDers who felt that way, she made a hell of point in that no one corrected them except moderators. She stated that had she found one post in those threads that told the opposite view, not just a slight slap on the wrists, she would have considered staying. But she didn't and doesn't want to bother now.

How on earth are we suppose to bring others to accept and understand CDing even on a general level when these sort of posts not only continue to go up, but so few say a word to stop! Even if you DO feel that way, don't you realize how hurtful it sounds to someone else? How would you feel being told you would never pass? Aren't feminine enough? Aren't dressing how you are expected to? Don't you realize how conceited and snobbish you sound when you claim that a GG would be jealous of a good looking CD? How can you not realize how such statements affect how you are viewed as a person?

I don't live in a fantasy world in which everyone is perfectly PC or where no one disagrees with how other's live, dress or act. But I don't understand how or why, a group of people that wish the world didn't look down on them or discriminated against them, could do that very same thing to the gender they are emulating!

For those of you who don't do this and/or stand up to it, I applaud you for showing others the same respect you are requesting for yourself.

[Wendy me]

DD i hear what your saying when person's here say and do things like that it only proves that they themselfes... truly don't have a clue as what they are saying .... being feminine they are not being ... kinda more like the "guy" thing to be one up on someone else........

when it's acceptance and understanding is what a group of persons is looking for .... respect goes a long way....

food for thought could any one in that that thread in question just pushed away someone that just might have been a SO that would have shared and accepted you as a cross dresser?????............


good point DD.............

[michelle64]

all i can say is i agree...the stuff some post is laughable..i have a great and wonderful GG...i certainly do not begrudge her dress....she is beautiful..the reason most do not have wonderful GG's in their life is their own fault..glad you had the courage to posts..ive thought about it as well and finally just let it go

[MalibuJenny]

Seems she stumbled across a few threads that she took rather offensively. They talked about how CDers were more feminine than GGs, put GGs down for how they dress in today's society, or made statements that implied GGs aren't feminine or womanly enough and that the CDers are.

Crossdressers + Internet = Fantasies Run Amok


I've tried to inject some reality in several threads but that doesn't get much traction. And I can understand that to a certain extent, as this is one of the few places CDers can come and just have fun with this part of themselves.

[TxKimberly]

Hard to argue with your post! Usualy when I see a post along the lines of what you describe, I head for cover 'cause I know the stuffs about to hit the fan!

[Emily Anderson]

Being inquisitive by nature, I'm prone to ask a lot of questions and poke around for thought-provoking responses, so I'm kind of guessing that one or more of the statements were initiated by my polls/questions.

I certainly hope that is not the case, but please feel free to ask to delete any threads/posts that contained inapproriate responses.

[Sherlyn]

Hi DD...I see this alot to and it always a certain group ..it makes me just want to scream out WTF is wrong with you..they come here and put a bad taste in alot mouths ..I've delt with some of them and personally.. because of the type of forum we are I think they should just be sent packing.Don't give up we need and enjoy you here...lets all try and fix this

[Sophia KT]

Don't! ...give up I mean.

What you have recounted sounds really bad and I'm sorry that people who are, or are at least willing to be, openminded are put off by nonsense; I honestly can't believe that a CDer said they are more fem. than a woman. I think this broaches the question you once asked, 'what does fem. mean to you' [something like that anyway]. I think fem. means something different to CDers but here is an overlap [it's too late for me to thing about tha now though :-)

I know I have said that some women don't capitalize on their natural femininity [whether or no they should have to is another question], but for me that is only envy of a lost opportunity; like when someone keeps a Ferrari in a garage because it's worth so much, when you could be enjoying yourself. Perhaps this is the frame of mind which when taken to extreme produces what you have discribed.

X

[Sherlyn]

Maybe if we didn't run for cover and spoke up that we don't care the way some members are treated.. in a civil way... this all could stop

[Di]

DD kinda more like the "guy" thing to be one up on someone else...
good point DD.............

Thats what I always think too...I either roll my eyes or (depending on what exactly is said ) want to throw my computer across the room.
Thanks DD for saying what alot of us are thinking . I always say I am so lucky my partner makes me feel good as gold.
I feel bad for the partners of the certain ones that imply GGs aren't feminine or womanly enough . More often than NOT the ones with this attitude are ALONE.....and wonder why.:Angry3:

[Sophia KT]

Maybe if we didn't run for cover and spoke up that we don't care the way some members are treated.. in a civil way... this all could stop


Count me in; wherever there are shit and fans is where I feel most at home.

[Fab Karen]

Seems she stumbled across a few threads that she took rather offensively. They talked about how CDers were more feminine than GGs, put GGs down for how they dress in today's society, or made statements that implied GGs aren't feminine or womanly enough and that the CDers are.

According to her email, she felt that there was too much competition and she had no desire to date anyone that couldn't accept her for who she was. She made several references regarding specific posts and stated that for a group of people who want to be accepted for who they really are, these posts reflected quite poorly on the whole. When I tried to argue that it isn't all CDers who felt that way, she made a hell of point in that no one corrected them except moderators. She stated that had she found one post in those threads that told the opposite view, not just a slight slap on the wrists, she would have considered staying. But she didn't and doesn't want to bother now.

Problem is, those same chauvinists keep saying it over & over ( some I think want to sort-of blame GG's rather than look at their own lack of self-esteem to do what they want), so even though some of us speak up against such narrow-mindedness, our response to it can get buried. & sometimes for example, those posting the heavy breathing
subjects ( "what kind of panties do you wear" etc. ) crop up for a bit, & someone new not spending much time looking might assume that is what CD's are all about.

[jennCD]

I have to agree with your post, DD. It is something I've noticed at times since I joined the forum.

However, in my case, the TG aspects of my life are much less about how I look than they are about how I feel. I've somewhat pulled myself away from jenn activities but during the last year, I've understood that I don't do this as a competition (with other CD/TGs or GGs). This is an emotional/mental thing for me more so than it is the simple act of trying to "outperform" anyone else.

I'm sure quite a large percentage of us here are more about wanting to allow ourselves to just feel the way need instead of superficially trying to copy women or "look the part". If we were all about the "show", we'd all be out strutting our stuff every chance we could. That's more of an act, something perhaps done out of admiration but really nothing more than a disguise of sorts.

I'm sorry to hear that your friend came her and ended up walking away with a negative view of us. Overall, I don't get that feeling from most of the members that's I've met here.

:)
jenn

[Cynthia_0101]

I would leave a comment on some of these posts but even though I have seen post's like them before I am always left speechless by some peoples arrogance.

Some of these posts are the exact reason my wife no longer comes to the site, same Idea she gets pissed off beyond words.

Maybe the best bet would be to just ignore these posts like a child's tantrum and soon enough they would be filed down to the bottom of the pile. If no one gives these any attention they will stop posting.

[Deborah Jane]

Maybe if we didn't run for cover and spoke up that we don't care the way some members are treated.. in a civil way... this all could stop

Yeah i,m up for that...
Stand up for what you believe in and don,t let the :censor: screw it up for the rest of us!!
This is meant to be a support forum after all.

[Alana65]

DD,

I agree with what you've said here......I've seen a few CD members that I felt overstepped things when talking about how a lot of GG's don't dress nice/look good all of the time. These CD'ers should realize that as hard as we must work to emulate the female gender, it doesn't automatically mean that as women, GG's have it easy (even though they've got the figures & feminine features). And, I apologize for not speaking out to correct them on what affect the negativity could have on the lovely ladies we desire to support and/or love us (that visit, or are members of this forum). Personally, if I had a supportive SO, I could care less if she dressed in sweatpants and a t-shirt most of the time......I still find that attractive (even if a few others don't). :hugs: to all.

[Kate Simmons]

I know what you mean DD. The "one upmanship" stuff grinds me and is really a "guy" trait. Really the dressing is only part of being like a woman or perhaps I should say being like a human being. Real women do not practice this kind of stuff. They are kind and considerate of others and care about them. In any case, I have stated several times I can't come close to being a woman on one of my "best" days as in my opinion every woman naturally possesses the pure femininity that I will never have. I can copy the appearance, the mannerisms, the moves and other things but I can never truely capture the pure essense of being a woman no matter what I do and that I freely admit, no matter how "good" I seem to look. I have learned a lot from the GG's on this site and appreciate them, their feelings and opinions.

[KatrinaAshley]

You know how the saying goes. "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all." All of us have different ways of expressing ourselves and what is a turn on to some may be a turn off to the rest. Rather than appear to be attacking members of our community we let things slide and perhaps that is where your friend was misinterpreting what she read.

That's how the web is. Anyone can say what they like and those posts can be taken in many ways depending on the person reading. The most important thing for you to tell them is how YOU feel instead of taking the opinions of someone neither of you know.

[JenniferPaul]

I am sorry for the bad expericence your friends had in this forum.

There is a quite a variety of people who post here, and for every person who expressed those awful ideas, there are many who feel the opposite. Many crossdressers have a sexist and steriotypical view of women. You just need to forewarn your friends that they like anywhere they meet people they may run into some jerks.

Blackwell has his list of worst dress women, once he had a CD on it. Many will agree or disagree with his choice. For me I, do not recall meeting any women with really bad style, but I have meet many cd who dress really badly.

What do we cd know about femininity really. One must take such comparison of femininity for what its worth. manyly Not much.

There are many good people here. One just may get prick by some thorns before one can pick the rose.

Jennifer

[Patti Girl]

Perhaps I'm one of the offenders, I think I've noted that women rarely wear skirts or dresses any more. My wife wears a skirt a couple of times a year and I do a double take when she puts on lipstick.

Crossdressers have to go extremes to feel feminine. (It's been noted many times that if one wants to pass at the mall, DO NOT dress too feminine.)

But if such comments are deemed offensive, then I guess I don't belong here and I'll quit the board.

Bye all.

Patti

[DemonicDaughter]

I posted this because I believe in standing up for who you are and what you do. I'm on this site to support my SO and the amazing friends I've met while on here. I know the majority of CDers don't have this "holier than thou" attitude. I think my friend would have had a different outlook had she seen these posts get demolished like so many others regarding other sensitive subjects. As stated, only the moderator made a statement then closed the thread.

I shouldn't have to warn anyone about anyone else on this site. My friends are full grown adults and know they will meet idiots anywhere they go. The point was, she was very intrigued by the idea of a male presenting as a female. She said she'd love to learn more, so how could I not send her to my second home? Here! You could imagine how upsetting it was to find out that she happen to come across these posts. She did mention that all the panty and bra posts were a bit "odd" but she took into consideration that many here were new to CDing. She even told me she thought of posting a few responses but opted to lurk a bit more. Well the lurking stopped and so did her interest.

I posted because I hate that any of my cding friends have to live in any level of secrecy. I post because I find this interesting, appealing and wonderful. I post because I have a voice that has just as much right to be heard as anyone else's. But I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me I'm somehow less of a woman because I wear jeans. And THAT was her sentiments. How can I argue when no one else does? How can I defend any CDer when they themselves don't voice an opinion?

[CowGurl Rachel]

The way I see it, a GG's femininity is more than "skin deep", so saying a GG does not dress feminine enough (like Gretchen Wilson?) or is not feminine enough misses the point. I see my crossdressing as an expression of who I am inside. Outward appearances alone, do not make the GG or CD or whoever, who they are. Truth of it is, I learn to outwardly appear feminine by learning from GG's. :doh: GG's have a natural femininity that I do not. Some people just can't get passed the surface of things. Your friends, maybe, should read THIS thread, to see what the "real" girls on here are like!

Although, I will say that I am more feminine than my Dad... who, in fact is very masculine, which I am only average in that dept. :battingeyelashes:

:love: Rachel

[Niya W]

But I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me I'm somehow less of a woman because I wear jeans. And THAT was her sentiments. How can I argue when no one else does? How can I defend any CDer when they themselves don't voice an opinion?

I've gotten into arguments over fights over this with one CDer I know.its basically its a vision that they have of what a women should be not what women are. This is not the 50's women can wear jeans. Look around see what women wear. Because you have this vision of June Cleaver does not make me less feminine.

[GypsyKaren]

Anyone here who thinks they're better than the GG's in anything is an idiot who's living in a fantasy world of cotton candy dreams and who the hell knows what else.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Angie G]

I'm saddened to think some one here would do that. That is just rude and I hope we seeno more of it. :hugs:
Angie

[Jenny Beth]

Good post DD. When I read the sort of things you mention I just shake my head and don't bother responding because I know the thread is doomed. I suppose I could tear a strip off someone for being insensitive to GG's but I've seen people ganged up on when they stray from what's acceptable here but I don't wish to be part of that. Hopefully your message will be heard but there will always be someone who comes along and starts it all over again.

[TxKimberly]

Maybe if we didn't run for cover and spoke up that we don't care the way some members are treated.. in a civil way... this all could stop

Perhaps . . . and then maybe it would just drag the thread on bringing it more and more attention.

[jennifer41356]

There a lot of fantastic people on the this board that I admire and enjoy reading their posts...and there are others that I dont care to read and ignore...I think its a shame your friends would be that down on a group of fine folks over a couple of stupid posts.....

I am sorry your friend feels that way and hope she will give this board another shot..have her read some of Suzy's or Kymberly's posts and I think she will change her mind:2c:

[DemonicDaughter]

Perhaps . . . and then maybe it would just drag the thread on bringing it more and more attention.

Yes, but maybe attention is what it needs. I'm not saying we should argue at every opportunity, but there are some pretty short lived threads on here. Perhaps those sort of threads should get the same treatment? Problems don't go away if ignore and I don't think arguing is the best solution. But I think a show of no tolerance sends a definite sign to those who are putting down others, GGs or not.

[Karren H]

I totally agree about the typical crossdressers attitude.... and I bite my tounge.......

[AmandaM]

Well, I hope it's not me! Anyway, this is stupid. So women don't fem up. HA! I've seen it everyday in the corporate world. Tell your friend to come back and call people like that jerks, and I'll back her up in any posts I see. Besides, this board is open to the world, like any other board. Just like a political board where Dems and Repubs mix it up about the issues. I know it turned her off, but I think she left a bit early. She doesn't know any of us yet. She'll find friends. And when she can post to the women-only board, she can ask stuff like "what the f is wrong with x" or "why so many bra and panty posts". LOL

[LilSissyStevie]

One thing that makes forums like these interesting is the diversity of outlook and opinion. But it guarantees that someone will ALWAYS be offended. I get offended sometimes, boo hoo! I am offensive sometimes, double boo hoo!

Sure, you can have an atmosphere where everyone tries to shout down the opinions and outlook of others they disagree with. But, soon factions and clics form around the various positions and ultimately the strongest clic drives off everyone else. Then there's nothing left to say since those that are left either agree with each other or are afraid to say anything. What's left of the group just withers away.

It is possible to express an outlook that radically different to the outlook of others without attacking the worthiness, morals, intelligence, religion or lack of, cultural background or whatever of the people you disagree with. I believe it's more important to provide a place where crossdressers can feel comfortable expressing themselves outside of the closet, even their "stupid" ideas and feelings, maybe for the first time in their lives, than it is to worry that some outsiders are getting offended or that they are making "us" look bad. I'm sure I'm in the minority, though.

[Huntress]

Seen the Trailers for "Wanted?" A. "The Lips" J. teaches the Protagonist how to be an assassin. One technique was to curve a pistol shot around intervening objects, sic, to hit the target. Piffle.
I've parked my hard glutes in DD's lap (Mmmm), oops, sorry, history distraction. She does NOT curve shots. She is a no BS, Straight Shooter. You could learn a lot from a woman like her.
Both of my Professions are elite fields of endeavor where massive loss of life are around every turn, if you do not make the right move EVERY TIME, not most, EVERY. I'm at the tip of the spear in both arenas. No Slack, ever. But.. CDing. Hah! A very fun, adrenaline producing, sexually arousing diversion. A mud fence with lipstick would out poll my muscular ass in a frock. Even being the Elite bastidge I am, I would never presume to color in a GG's book. GG's are too much fun just the way they are. I admire them too much, probably. At least they are usually smart enough to stay off the battlefield and I'm not.
Don't pine for a fantasy past. Make a new future. You're gonna live there like it or not.

Suck it up boys, or the girls won't want to play with you. Need I say it...
Girls are fun to play with.

Huntress

[Kris]

I shouldn't have to warn anyone about anyone else on this site. My friends are full grown adults and know they will meet idiots anywhere they go.

I post because I find this interesting, appealing and wonderful.

But I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me I'm somehow less of a woman because I wear jeans. And THAT was her sentiments. How can I argue when no one else does? How can I defend any CDer when they themselves don't voice an opinion?

Hi DD,

There are idiots everyplace. I feel the way you do as well, but I also know that there is going to be some "crap" that I will have to put up with......... I will make sure that I keep us out of harmful places and away from purposely hurtful people.. but there will be times that those idiots will act foolish. What can I do? Not a darned thing. I have to take the high road and walk away otherwise they get what they want..... they have ruined my day.

I am the last one on earth to say, "Don't voice your opinion" because I am known for ripping people up here if they say something disrespectful and I catch it. But my truth is, and I firmly believe this - If someone makes fun of someone that is black, it makes a bigger impact if someone WHITE says it is unacceptable. If someone makes fun of women, then it will make a bigger impact if a man says something about it being unacceptable. At the same time, so many cd'ers are so used to being 'in the closet' that they are afraid of being hurt that they keep to themselves.

I say "rip away!" and I do rip away. I am sorry that your friends left the site because of a few bad apples. My next question is, do you really think they could handle the social pressure of being with a cd - if they can't even handle the cd'ers themselves?

Being out might prove to be too much.

Just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

Hugs,
Kris

[TracyH]

Two thoughts:

The first is that every time I walk into the MtF forums, I'm really dismayed at the attitudes shown here. Each post gives me a mental image, and I'm assaulted with images of fat, bearded men having pecker contests over who's dress is the pinkest and most frilly. Add in the mental health cases and the holier than thou zealots who think we should all be out on a corner in drag and holding a picket sign, and you'll understand why I hang out a lot more in the lounge than anywhere else.

My second thought is that the only reason moderators are the only people who'll step in and stop the crap that's going on around here is because a lot of people actually think those sickly sweet posts, hemmorhaging with emoticons are actually feminine. It's more akin to, quoted from someone else, that goofy falsetto that "Homer Simpson uses when he's imitating Marge." Coupled with the fact that the language restrictions are so tight that THIS post might have actually crossed the line into ban territory, I feel like we're just all standing around that kid from the Twilight Zone, trying to put on the most pleasant face possible, to avoid being sent to the corn field.

I noticed this after visiting the FtM forum and realizing that I haven't even seen a fraction of the people who frequent this place. Mostly because a lot of the FtM's don't bother to come up here, yet the MtF's will gladly go downstairs and take a dump in any of the other threads, even if the title says "FTM ONLY". And it really sucks, because there are a lot of good people here with a lot of good advice to give.

If things are going to change, we all need to realize that we're just fat, ugly men in dresses.

[JenniferPaul]

I think it is to easy to send off a post and regrettably some people should really wait and review their post before they click on the send button. Do these people tend to offend. probably not. They were careless and not moderate in their speech.

Sometime I get the feeling that some people will comment on every tread even if they do not really have anything to say. one does not have to comment or read on every thread. and some threads should be avoided. Know that some post were made by people who did not think well before they posted,

Move past a bad posts and if you find some of us with more sensible opinions say so and perhaps send a personal message.

Jennifer

[battybattybats]

Great discussion DD!

Hmm... the question I'm pondering is why they (perhaps even we as I may have made comments that come across that way myself at times) do this.

One thing I've noticed about people is that those who posture more, brag, are arrogant or elitist etc are the ones who are the most fragile on the inside.

Putting others down to shore up ones own brittle ego and self image is not new. Its not just a male trait to be competitive for that reason either, I've seen plenty of comeptitive and snarky behaviour amongst men and women with my own eyes and ears.

So my guess is that the motivation of such comments will be fear, vulnerability, self doubt and desperate attempts to justify crossdressing especially if that person has tastes that aren't mainstream in fashion any more. But then fashion trends themselves are a form of the same behaviour, part of a competative social heirarchy system filled with conformity.

Many womens magazines are filled with similar competative judgemental attitudes especially of celebrity womens clothes.

Those aren't excuses, just possible explanations of 'why'. This discussion is an awesome opportunity for us all to reevaluate our judgements of others and our own self-acceptance to not just curve this problematic behaviour but to also gain wisdom and be happier better people.

Thanks for raising this DD!
:hugs:

[Holly]

DD, I'm so sorry that your friend was offended. It must be very hard for her finding a place where everyone treats everybody with respect. It is a sad fact that some of our members are thoughtless at best. Actually, I think we do a pretty good job in admonishing those who come here with a meanspirited post critical of how anyone presents themselves. For those who make such posts out of ignorance, what they need is some sensitivity training, not public humiliation, IMO. And perhaps you friend needs to learn not to paint us all with the same brush as well.

[CaptLex]

Hopefully your message will be heard but there will always be someone who comes along and starts it all over again.
:yt:

My thoughts exactly. :p

[Pink Person]

If I had to respond to every post that offended me or was not agreeable with my way of thinking, it would be very exhausting. It would be even more exhausting if I had to protect other people's feelings from being offended in any way. I think DD is peachy and wish there were more women like her, but honestly if they were like DD then they would be able to take care of themselves without any help from me. I have a rather deep sympathy for everyone on this site and personally tend to idolize women. The fact that I have a high opinion of women in general doesn't mean I think I have to defend them all of the time. In my view, most women take care of themselves very nicely, which is one of the many things I like about them. I am also not too interested in attacking feminine males. We don't agree about everything, but my sympathy for them runs very deep. In short, I try to stay positive about everything I read here because we all have similar feelings and experiences that affect us in common ways that transcend the things that are said or don't get said. I would tell DD's friend that she is sweet to be interested in feminine males and that she shouldn't be too bothered about anything she reads here. It's okay not to agree with everybody about everything.

[Sarah Rabbit]

One thing that makes forums like these interesting is the diversity of outlook and opinion. But it guarantees that someone will ALWAYS be offended. I get offended sometimes, boo hoo! I am offensive sometimes, double boo hoo!

Sure, you can have an atmosphere where everyone tries to shout down the opinions and outlook of others they disagree with. But, soon factions and clics form around the various positions and ultimately the strongest clic drives off everyone else. Then there's nothing left to say since those that are left either agree with each other or are afraid to say anything. What's left of the group just withers away.

It is possible to express an outlook that radically different to the outlook of others without attacking the worthiness, morals, intelligence, religion or lack of, cultural background or whatever of the people you disagree with. I believe it's more important to provide a place where crossdressers can feel comfortable expressing themselves outside of the closet, even their "stupid" ideas and feelings, maybe for the first time in their lives, than it is to worry that some outsiders are getting offended or that they are making "us" look bad. I'm sure I'm in the minority, though.
I wish I said that...My sentiments exactly

Reality is, we live in a world where every one is different and entitled to there own opinion. If I don't like what some one has said/wrote I have two choices. Walk away or put forward my argument.I am not defending what they say, but their right to an opinion. This is a 'Forum' and it's very nature, a discussion board. If we were all to think alike, then we could always change this to an 'Announcement board'

Some members may go 'Overboard', but there are enough members here who would disagree with them.

what is the old saying?

"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death, your right to say it"


Sarah R. :bunny:

[Sarah...]

Hmmmm. This is so interesting. I cannot disagree with the original post and many of the responses. We have, I think, a number of inherent problems to deal with. One is that this is an online forum in which you type the words you want to say. I have set out to post many replies which I have deleted because I couldn't make the typed words reflect my feelings. So I didn't bother. It can be really difficult (not impossible) to accurately post irony, humour, sadness, empathy, love, despair etc etc if you haven't got the essential part of human communication - the visual and aural cues. Your friend was right DD, if the overall impression was of intolerant people - whatever kind of people they might be - then why stay? One wouldn't hang out with intolerant people out in the physical world through choice, unless one harboured the same intolerances of course. I suppose many of the polls / questions etc posted on here develop from a need to know why things are how they are and given the very wide spectrum of CD / TG life there will always be people for whom panties are the be all and end all of their experience (and why not?) and those for whom nothing less than the chance to be as close to 100% female as it is possible for them to be is the whole of their life (and why not?). Like TV, we can switch off if we don't agree or if we feel strong enough we can argue, discuss or remonstrate. Arguably, if we switch off from a thread then are we not simply allowing others to express their feelings as we hope we can express our own? I think I am agreeing that there will always be threads that are offensive to people and we should indeed seek to question those but there are others that evolve from simple misunderstandings, misplaced humour etc that are much better ignored if one feels that way inclined. Our strength in tolerance will be in knowing the difference. Personally I like to see the well-thought out response to threads. For example, recent poll - are you more of a girly girl than your SO? - many responses of yes, one or two of no and one or two of "sometimes her, sometimes me". One might as well have asked who's best at cooking - well if I can be bothered it's me and if my SO can be bothered it's her!! The chance to respond to these sorts of threads is a good thing - the chance to see some of the gems of advice and experience that are written is priceless (especially for us newbies). The chance to have a good laugh at times is a real relief from some of the difficulties each of us faces, in reality each day.

Fantastic post DD, I will be applying some deeper thought to my posts and responses from now on. I dearly hope the well-placed humour doesn't go away though, it's such a tonic.

Sarah...

[sandra-leigh]

Each post gives me a mental image, and I'm assaulted with images of fat, bearded men having pecker contests over who's dress is the pinkest and most frilly.


Change that "dress" to "panties" and you might have the beginning of a point, but it seems to me that you over-exaggerate, either for effect or through faulty perception. There are repeated themes that show up that leave me uninspired, but if they weren't meaningful to a sufficient flow of people, the themes wouldn't keep cropping up. Other members here are not under mandate to keep me personally entertained; I can simply skip the threads that don't mean much to me.

But even after skipping those threads that don't happen to touch me, every single day I find people writing postings from the heart, whether that be sharing their successes or their sorrows or making attempts to understand themselves or the world, or in trying to help others with their struggles. There are a lot of inspiring posts in this section ("inspiring" as in "leading one to think or care about something", not as in "insipidly positive")


Add in the mental health cases

And I'm one of those. A lot of the members are, for various reasons; hereditary in my case. I'm not proud of being a mental health case: it's a fact of my life, and I do the best I can with it. I am, though, proud that, by speaking openly of my experiences, I have helped others understand and deal with their own situation better.


and the holier than thou zealots who think we should all be out on a corner in drag and holding a picket sign,

There are few indeed of those around. There are, though, some posters who put a lot of thought and effort into their postings, but whose postings could be misunderstood as zealotry if the postings are read too quickly or if the reader is not familiar with the structured development of ideas and the format of academic debates.


and you'll understand why I hang out a lot more in the lounge than anywhere else.


I feel like we're just all standing around that kid from the Twilight Zone, trying to put on the most pleasant face possible, to avoid being sent to the corn field.

Ah, Jerome Bixby's "It's a Good Life" (not, as some might perhaps have guessed, Steven King's "Children of the Corn")


If things are going to change, we all need to realize that we're just fat, ugly men in dresses.

I may be fat (medical reasons), and I may be in a dress, but I've never been ugly. Ugly is within, not the external appearance.

[vivianann]

I hope I have never said anything to offend a GG, if I have I am truely sorry.
I can understand how GGs can be turned off by some of the selfish attitudes some CDers show to the world. There are some threads that I see, and I think, oh no! I hope this does not send the GGs running away. DD let me know if I have post something offensive, pm me if that is the case so I can be more aware before I post anything. As far as passing for a woman I dont come close. I do love GGs, they are the most wonderful of Gods creation. I believe that GGs should wear what they feel like, and it does not make them less feminine if they are wearing pants, GGs look great in pants also. We are being hypocritical when we criticise women for wearing pants, how do we expect GGs to not be critical of us for wearing dresses if we cannot accept them for wearing pants.

[DawnRodgers]

Unless we expect to live in a cookie cutter world, I think that to express the idea that there are people here who have all sort of ideas and views about why they do what they do and act like they do and think like they do and to feel that everybody's view and ideas are wrong and out of touch and politically incorrect is just wierd.
Look around people. There are a bunch of people attracted to this site because they are either men dressing an women, women dressing as men or women that live with men dressing as women. You don't think that there might be a lot of confusion and ideas about what makes this so? That there are way out ideas? That many,if not most of us, don't fully understand what makes us tick and act this way. Add to that the hostility and lack of understanding and empathy out in the world. And the guilt we are supposed to feel (according to many) and the pain that we feel.
I come to this forum to see how others of us feel, think and act. Do I agree with all? No. Will I ever agree with all? No. Heck I have problems with the rest of the world (the other half, of course) about money, politics, living life and almost everything to do with everyday life. Does that mean that they have no right to talk, to put out ideas, to live near me? Of course not. I listen to them, argue with them, try to convert them to my ideas as they try to convert me. As long as it is an exchange of ideas without violence, threats and has great and reasonable thoughts - hey, sometimes I do change my mind, sometimes I don't and sometimes I see their points of view but still disagree.
To me there is no such thing as a bad discussion. We can't all fall into lock step on ideas. Where would the progress come from and, as we have seen, societies that do this are invariably weaker, oppressive and sadly, out of touch with reality.
Dawn

[michelle64]

Thats what I always think too...I either roll my eyes or (depending on what exactly is said ) want to throw my computer across the room.
Thanks DD for saying what alot of us are thinking . I always say I am so lucky my partner makes me feel good as gold.
I feel bad for the partners of the certain ones that imply GGs aren't feminine or womanly enough . More often than NOT the ones with this attitude are ALONE.....and wonder why.:Angry3:

well said..some need to look in the mirror and then they may realize why they are alone...ive just been around too long (i did not just get off the turnip truck so to speak) to be smoked by those who constantly try and blame others for their own problems (as if society is not full of this dilema)..ive pondered throwing in the towel here..then i think..why..life is full of boneheads and why should i expect any different on this wasteland we call the internet..

[Annemarie]

GGs have nothing to prove, they are women whatever they wear.
Tgirls have to exagerrate their femininety as they strive to be passable; they wear far more skirts, dresses and heels than the average woman about town.We also go in for far brighter & exuberant colours etc. It is also a fact that today's women's fashions are far less feminine than in the 1950s for example. I was walking in town yesterday and the vast majority of women were wearing trousers (pants). I only saw one woman dressed in a very feminine way; in a dress and cardi.
Whether we like it or not, as women have become more equal to men, they dress more like them. To aspire to pass nowadays, T-girls have to wear trousers and sombre colours ; hence their disappointment and moaning !

[iwearstockings]

As Arriana pointed out, its a very male trait to slag off the other gender even when you're dressing like a member of it. Not productive and when you read it you always get the impression that the author is just desperate to write something.

Are we not men?

[Tamara Croft]

And when she can post to the women-only board, she can ask stuff like "what the f is wrong with x" or "why so many bra and panty posts". LOLReally? she can say that without fear of abuse? I don't think so. How do I know? Because any time a GG questions anything on this board, we get slapped down for voicing our opinion, we aren't allowed to disagree, have a voice, we're just here to read the constant :BS: and live with it... and people wonder why most GG's leave this board... because the constant crap they have to read in this section puts them off, but God help any one of us that dares to stand up and say something... we're being 'abusive' or 'vile'... so pardon me if I think your statement saying she can come here and say that, seriously wouldn't go down well, because she'd get slapped down for it.

It's nice to see those in this thread saying 'oh that's so bad for your friend' etc... and you would stand up for them etc... but you don't, you don't say anything, you just ignore it and leave the GG's to get trashed. It's been going on a long time, but if the mods/admins say anything about it, we're being bullies.. because it's a CD forum and anything should be allowed in here.... w/e :thumbsdn:

DD, thank you for your post, but I feel it will fall on deaf ears... because the majority really doesn't give a crap.

[TxKimberly]

. . . It's nice to see those in this thread saying 'oh that's so bad for your friend' etc... and you would stand up for them etc... but you don't, you . . . .

Tamara,

I don't mean to pick on you, but I think you may be mistaken on this. The last time I saw a post along the lines of "Why aren't women feminine", it was responded to immediately by quite a few CD's who slapped the person that started the thread down with a hell of trouncing. I haven't bothered to spend the time to go find that thread yet, but the majority of responses were over whelming and to the effect "You have no idea what your typical mother is going through, or how low on her priority list looking pretty and fem is when compared to taking care of the house, family, and children".
If no one wants to take my word for I'll be happy to go looking for that post

[Tamara Croft]

I don't mean to pick on you, but I think you may be mistaken on this. Would you like me to post all the deleted threads to prove you wrong? One thread does not count for all the ones that have been deleted. One thread doesn't count for the abuse in PM's for stating an opinion. I have personally been called some nasty names on this forum for saying how I feel, so please, don't tell me I'm mistaken, I've been putting up with this :BS: for 4 years, the majority don't see the half of it, it's pulled down before it gets nasty.

And just to make a point: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84925

Just read that and you tell me I'm mistaken!

[deja true]

Well....guilty....a little bit! Not of favorably comparing any here with any woman out in the real world...or of dissin' women for not being feminine enough these days... but of constantly turning away from the threads that do.

I don't really feel the need to try to 'correct' somebody's sexist, selfish, jealous thinking. I do feel the need to try to avoid that kind of thinking. I'm not an argumentative kind of person. I'm the one that reads something stupid and just turns away shaking my head. And hoping that someone with better debating skills can take them to task, trying to change their outlook. (Or failing that,that a lightning bolt drops from the sky and causes them an epiphany!)

It very often is a 'pissing contest' that causes these kinds of posts, and all I want to do is step back before I get any on me. (Do you realize what oil prices are doing to dry cleaning costs?).

Also, it's often a maturity thing. Newly out girls, those who have finally come to some sort of acceptance of themselves...or received a degree of acceptance from their friends or SOs, are often at that giggly stage of having to prove themselves. They think that the way to do that is the way they see their teen daughters or mall rats do it...by convincing themselves of their own superiority by dissing the 'competition'.

But only as we mature in our own acceptance of our selves, do we finally, inevitably, come to the relization of our own limitations. Only then can the competitiveness (born of jealousy) stop and the emulation (out of respect) begin. The maturity doesn't necessarily come from length of experience (though it often does), it comes from the realization that our own happiness and enjoyment in this quirky endeavor comes from self respect, not self loathing... And self respect always leads to respect of others...all others!

I'll still not be jumpin'd down anyone's throat for any stupid comments they post, but ya won't see me answering them in that or any other thread they start either.
It is a free (more or less) forum. Say what you like, girls and boys. Naivete is one thing. Asking seriously for help or advice is another.

But if it's arrogant, or insulting, or off-color, or downright ignorant, be prepared to be ignored.


(As if you care!)

[Katheryn]

I don't understand how or why, a group of people that wish the world didn't look down on them or discriminated against them, could do that very same thing to the gender they are emulating![/I][/B]



First, as always, this is an IMHO post.

I sort of chuckle inside when I hear "GLBT community". There isn't much of a sense of community when with only one of those groups alone. I have been called faggot by a gay male for wearing panties. It's my opinion that any group that gets dumped on by society seeks to elevate itself by finding a group to pass that dump along.

Second, I have been involved in flame wars since the news groups were echoed between bbs's. I have been told by TS's that I was somehow less valid than they because I was a CD, a part time girl. I wasn't as committed to being a girl enough to lop off my male bits.

Yes, it's wrong to be judgemental about other people, but I think it's sadly part of human nature. I would love to see us rise above it, but even gg's are catty about other girls in the way they dress, do makeup or look.

I wish I could wave my magic fairy wand and make the world a better place, but perhaps some more posts like yours might change a few viewpoints and help out.

Thanks for showing us that other view.

K

[Tamara Croft]

It is a free (more or less) forum. Say what you like, girls and boys.We're not allowed to say what we like, we're not allowed to say something like 'you're selfish', because it's deemed abusive, vile etc... and then come the PM's, real nasty, saying some really hurtful things about a person, but dare not say it to their face...


But if it's arrogant, or insulting, or off-color, or downright ignorant, be prepared to be ignored.And what would you call insulting? saying someone was 'selfish' perhaps? and then maybe go call that person numerous insulting names behind closed doors?

[CaptLex]

I'll still not be jumpin'd down anyone's throat for any stupid comments they post, but ya won't see me answering them in that or any other thread they start either.
That's your prerogative, of course. I HAVE to comment because ignorance can only be fought with information. If I allow people to happily wallow in the ignorance that can cause them to harm others, I haven't done my bit to turn things around . . . and I can't live with that.


But if it's arrogant, or insulting, or off-color, or downright ignorant, be prepared to be ignored.
And that's my other problem with it. Ignoring insulting remarks is pretty much equal to accepting and even agreeing with them, in my opinion. If no one stands up and points out the bigotry, they'll just think everyone agrees.

I'll be the first to say that everyone has a right to his own opinion and I don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to agree with mine, but it's a whole other thing when someone says something that's downright insulting - whether it's based on ignorance or just meanness.

And another point: there have been times when someone has spoken up about insulting comments on a thread here only to be told to let it go because the person meant no harm. That may be the case, but how else will such a person ever learn tolerance if no one makes an effort to enlighten him?


DD, thank you for your post, but I feel it will fall on deaf ears... because the majority really doesn't give a crap.
Unfortunately I feel the same way. After 2-1/2 years of trying to make things easier for the underrepresented on this forum, I have seen some progress, but it's a constant swimming against the tide because of the constant rush of newcomers that bring those same old attitudes and misinformation. So I have to admit I've grown cynical about hoping that things will change for good, but I'm glad to hear someone else speak up. Well said, DD . . . :clap:

[Sheila]

Why do I avoid the m2f forum in the main, and those posts in particular ........... cos I am sick and tired of being told the females are not feminine enough, am tired of being told by strangers what I should/should not wear .... heck even my partner does not do that so what right does somebody that doesn't know me, have to order my clothing choices ............. and yes for those seeking acceptance some of you can be a bunch of narrow minded bigots.

Would I ever ever entertain another CDR in a relationship ever again, should anything happen to this one .................. not a cat in HE**s chance, trust me very early on it would be one of the first questions I will ask, and I know what to look for :D

[Bev06 GG]

Hi DD,
Below is just one of the many posts that I have sent in the defence of some of those unkind comments you are on about. The wording I used was exactly the same as the CD had used cept I changed the gender.
I sympathise with your friend but to be honest had she hung around she would have realised that we GGs are constantly having to fight our corner. Although sometimes we are darned frightened to upset the apple cart because we get vile abusive PMs sent our way as a consequence. The post below was in response to a CD who said that he had been down the high street and realised that women were no longer feminine and didn't make the effort, infact he went as far as to say that he was more feminine than we were. Rather than take offence I decided to get my point over in a more light hearted way by giving the said response. Mostly I received support as I have to say most of the CDs on here are level headed individuals, however some went to town on me resulting in my staying away from the MTF forum for quite some time. I hadn't realised how hateful some people can be with the written word if you dont agree with their view point.
Shame your friend didn't hang around though because there are some nice CDs on here.


Better dressed than the Genetic men

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I went for a walk today in a lovely pair of tight jeans, a lumber shirt, and my DMs. I was so comfortable but I noticed that I was much better dressed than the Genetic males. Have any of you noticed that. They just dont seem to look like men any more in their long flowing skirts, high heels and long blonde wigs. Is this a new trend for men.

OK GIRLS only having a laugh, but honestly when have I ever criticised any of you for the way you look and I have to admit I am getting alittle tired of you doing this to me and mine. Live and let live I say. I get dressed up to go out for a special occasion and always make up before leaving the house . However, what I choose to wear on a day to day basis for comfort, is as much a freedom of choice for me as it is for you, so get off our backs hey. Your always harping on about supportive GGs so lets have a few supportive GMs.
Love BEVxxxx

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Last edited by Bev06 GG; 04-01-2006 at 07:03 AM.

[DemonicDaughter]

...Actually, I think we do a pretty good job in admonishing those who come here with a meanspirited post critical of how anyone presents themselves. For those who make such posts out of ignorance, what they need is some sensitivity training, not public humiliation, IMO. And perhaps you friend needs to learn not to paint us all with the same brush as well.

I think the mods do a great job and quite a thankless one at that it seems. I've run a few forums myself and know how vigilant you need to be so my argument wasn't with the forums over all. I just found it sad that those who cried about wanting to find an accepting SO would be the ones to also post that GGs aren't feminine. I didn't, and won't, name the threads, posts or individuals who responded because that's pointless. I simply wanted to make others aware of how their community is being viewed and hoped to at least make them think a bit more on responding and how they respond.

Its my intention to send her this thread link though I'm not sure how well it would do. She lurked here for a while and though said there were some great posts and very nice people, she felt that she would feel very out of place with so few GGs posting and the majority of threads about things she knew so little about. I'm hoping to at least try. I just wanted some to think about how they are projecting themselves and possibly losing the opportunity to find an accepting SO by posting such comments.

This forum isn't a free for all and it only makes the mods jobs harder. :sad:

[Bev06 GG]

And that's my other problem with it. Ignoring insulting remarks is pretty much equal to accepting and even agreeing with them, in my opinion. If no one stands up and points out the bigotry, they'll just think everyone agrees.


:
Love that reply to the thread CaptLex. Couldn't have said it better myself. I may have had some flack whilst being on this forum but no one could ever acuse me of sitting on the fence. Thank god they couldn't because for me that would be the ultimate insult. I cannot bear it when there is a burning issue at stake and people choose not to get involved. As you quite rightly pointed out by not making any comment you are in fact condoning their behaviour and lending it your approval.
Take care
Bev

[GACountrygal]

Wow, all I can say is Thank You DD for bringin this up.

I no longer post in any other section except the FAB section. Its about the only one that doesn't leave me feeling disgusted and feeling violated just for being a woman.

Nic

[KandisTX]

My biggest issue is that if I respond to those negative posts that I don't agree with, I'm liable to say something that will likely get me banished to the back of the closet. Not because I say anything that shouldn't be said, but because of HOW I say it. ;) I can be a bit harsh when something/someone pisses me off.

Kandis:love::rose2:

[JessieB]

DD, I'm so sorry that your friend was offended. It must be very hard for her finding a place where everyone treats everybody with respect. It is a sad fact that some of our members are thoughtless at best. Actually, I think we do a pretty good job in admonishing those who come here with a meanspirited post critical of how anyone presents themselves. For those who make such posts out of ignorance, what they need is some sensitivity training, not public humiliation, IMO. And perhaps you friend needs to learn not to paint us all with the same brush as well.As is so often the case, I find myself agreeing with Holly on this issue. It ain't a perfect world, and there are insensitive brutes (of both genders) everywhere, especially in the relatively anonymous world of the internet. I'd say DD's GG friends should be willing to do what the rest of us do on the 'Net (and in life in general) -- put up with a little bad in order to enjoy a lot of good. As for GG's getting bashed when they sound off, well, some people know how to make their points graciously and diplomatically, some are more abrasive, and they get responses accordingly. No different from guys or CDs.

By the way, I don't pore over every thread in the forum, so I guess I miss some of the offensive posts mentioned here. Personally, I would feel like a delusional idiot saying I look better than GGs -- maybe I do look a little better than some of the more unattractive GGs out there, but any decent looking GG makes me look just what I am, a second-rate imitation of the real thing. As for wishing GGs were a little more fem in dress and appearance, I for one share that sentiment, and I don't think there's anything wrong with GGs being made aware that's my preference ... but it's just my personal preference and not something I would wish to force on anyone. For that matter, it's not even something I'm inflexible about. After all, I'm asking the rest of the world to be tolerant of (and hopefully into) my femme tendencies, so it would be bogus for me to not be equally tolerant.

[battybattybats]

Are we not men?

Are you quoting H.G. Wells Island of Dr Moreau there? Or perhaps Devo's referance to it?

Or are you saying we're all men? Cause some may not be. The line between CD and TS isn't always so distinct after all.

And as women can also be competitive, critical of others appearances and the like isn't it sexist to consider it a male trait or a female trait when it exists in both?

It reminds me very much of high school, where bullying of girls by girls was every bit as harsh and sadistic as the bullying of boys by boys, varying in method true but the intent wwas just the same. People would pick on a less popular person to become more popular with others above them in the 'pecking order'.

I remember the spit in my hair that earned one the chance to sit with the 'cool' kids and the friend that stopped talking to me so he could gain some acceptance just a little higher up the chain.

Nevertheless such behaviour, ingrained from the playground and before that the tree-tops (social hierarchies that work like that are common amongst the apes) is still both morally and ethically wrong and we should all do our best to prevent it in ourselves and to discourage it from others.

[RylieCD]

Thanks DD,
Thank you for telling others about this site, I am sorry that some of us could not live up to expectations. I do find that some many posts here are laughable or in the WTF category and the only response i could give would be mean or a smart a**. I do feel you will find the same groups of people talking in the same way. You just have to chose the posts carefully. Even some of the good ones can go sour. My SO and I love this site, I t has given us an outlet since we can not openly talk to family and friends.

Thank you Crossdressers.com

[michelle64]

Wow, all I can say is Thank You DD for bringin this up.

I no longer post in any other section except the FAB section. Its about the only one that doesn't leave me feeling disgusted and feeling violated just for being a woman.

Nic
you know from some of the crap i have read on here..i cannot blame you 100%..some call them themselves CD's on here..in truth they are not..they are so hung up on sexual fantasies there perverted...ive said it..mods pls feel free to ban myself at your discretion..im appalled at the feeling i have regarding the way the GG's feel on this forum..it disgusting..and one more thing (again mods feel free to ban myself) i am so damn tired of learning the type of panties you are wearing..please if you must.... go to a gay porn site where you will be welcome..

[Kris]

-------

I went for a walk today in a lovely pair of tight jeans, a lumber shirt, and my DMs. I was so comfortable but I noticed that I was much better dressed than the Genetic males. Have any of you noticed that. They just dont seem to look like men any more in their long flowing skirts, high heels and long blonde wigs. Is this a new trend for men.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Bev06 GG; 04-01-2006 at 07:03 AM.[/U][/I][/B][/B][/COLOR]

BEV!

I was reading through the posts this morning, and saw this and almost spit my drink all over the monitor. LOL I love it.

Hugs,
Kris

[michelle64]

BEV!

I was reading through the posts this morning, and saw this and almost spit my drink all over the monitor. LOL I love it.

Hugs,
Kris


both you girls rock..that was great...and while we are at it..you GG's can start posting on the "do i pass threads"....some here do not pass and never will...i now fully support a GG telling a CD "you liook like sh$$"...hey its only fair and from what ive read from the GG's they have every right to do so...what goes around comes around...

[Sharon]

both you girls rock..that was great...and while we are at it..you GG's can start posting on the "do i pass threads"....some here do not pass and never will...i now fully support a GG telling a CD "you liook like sh$$"...hey its only fair and from what ive read from the GG's they have every right to do so...what goes around comes around...

I agree with what you write here, but I don't understand the level of venom. When has any member posted that women "liook like sh$$?" Why raise the level of animosity, rather than try to explain calmly, in an adult manner, why what a member writes is offensive to you?

[Sandra]

I often feel so sorry for any new GG who joins here. not because of what shes' found out or been told and is having a hard time coming to terms with it,but with the posts she can read, about how a few on here think we don't dress right or YOU look better than us.

Well all I can say is some of you need to look at mirror once in a while and then pass judgement. I wonder how long it will be now for someone to say that I shouldn't have said this, or how long the pms will take, because thats what does happen, we're not allowed to voice an opinion on here unless we all agree with you lot.

[RikkiOfLA]

I know an interesting couple; Annie is a CD, Debbie a post-op TS. The TS (an engineer with a desk job) dresses as a woman full-time. The CD chooses gender depending on activity--if working (construction electrician) or motorcycle riding, then male; if dancing or dining out, female. The interesting thing about this couple is that en femme, the CD dresses in a much more feminine style. She favors dresses, heels, and hosiery. Her TS partner seldom wears anything but black slacks with boots. Both have long hair and pleasant, feminine personalities. The TS is quiet; the CD is sometimes a little over the top.

Although the partner in this example is a TS not a GG, I think they point out the difference between the "real" world of the GG, the TS, and the full-time TG, and the "play only" world of many CDs. For Annie, like for many CDs, dressing is something she does only when she wants to. She doesn't worry about getting dirty, or carrying children, groceries, or work gear. She doesn't worry about hurrying or the last-minute errand. On the other hand Debbie, like most women, must contend with all of that because she not only dresses for fun, she dresses for work, for chores around the house, for errands, for taking out the garbage, for motorcycle riding, etc.

I began learning about this at the urging of my late first wife. I had recently started going out dressed and loved it. She was okay with that, but she was getting very tired of going to drag shows, gay bars, and other "safe" places. She told me, "If you're going to dress like a woman, you should live like a woman." That meant doing household chores, running errands, and going out for dinner to quiet neighborhood restaurants, not driving 20 miles into West Hollywood. It involves a different wardrobe. Miniskirts and textured pantyhose just aren't practical for climbing under sinks to fix plumbing. It's not a good idea to go mountain hiking in a silk dress and three-inch heels.

The reader might be wondering, "Why don't women dress very feminine when you can, and save the jeans for the more utilitarian times?" I tried that, but soon got tired of doing four or five costume changes a day. And so did my wife, who was constantly telling me "hurry up!" Changing clothes for a dressy dinner is one thing; but when you're just going to the local sushi bar, where everyone else is in jeans, why not just wear the jeans you were sorting the recycling in? The men do it, why not the women?

So I bought a pair of women's jeans; but they didn't make me look like a woman. A woman of my age and size would have hips, but hormone-free me, 59 years old and 250 pounds, can't come close to filling the bill--err, pants. It took me years to stumble onto the one brand of women's jeans (Not Your Daughter's Jeans) that are stretchy enough to work for me.

In short, many crossdressers live as women only in a carefully selected subset of the world. They spend most of the time as men. They're surprised that most women today dress as practically as most men? Why shouldn't they? And "she spends all her time changing clothes" was a critique of the 1950's woman. Today's woman is wise to that; she wants clothes that can go from morning to night. If those clothes aren't quite feminine enough to meet the exacting standards of the crossdresser fashion police, well, who elected them anyhow?

So maybe my women readers are thinking they'll put their crossdressing husbands on the "if you're going to dress like a woman, you're going to live like a woman" program. Here's a couple of warnings about that.

First, for the CDs. On average, women work much harder than men, both at the office and at home. There might not be quite as much heavy lifting (CDs, you know you won't get out of that), but there's three times as much running around. And you have to do it with a baby on your arm (where applicable). So prepare to have your day off turned into just another work day!

Second, for the women. If your CD can survive this little boot camp of living like a real woman, and actually like it, he may decide to go full time (without hormones). And why not? That's what happened to me. Just be warned! :devil:

Blessings,
Rikki

[Bev06 GG]

So maybe my women readers are thinking they'll put their crossdressing husbands on the "if you're going to dress like a woman, you're going to live like a woman" program. Here's a couple of warnings about that.

First, for the CDs. On average, women work much harder than men, both at the office and at home. There might not be quite as much heavy lifting (CDs, you know you won't get out of that), but there's three times as much running around. And you have to do it with a baby on your arm (where applicable). So prepare to have your day off turned into just another work day!

Second, for the women. If your CD can survive this little boot camp of living like a real woman, and actually like it, he may decide to go full time (without hormones). And why not? That's what happened to me. Just be warned! :devil:

Blessings,
Rikki

Tee hee love it Rikki. Theres a warning for us all. Dont think I could cope with having another full time woman around the house.


BEV!

I was reading through the posts this morning, and saw this and almost spit my drink all over the monitor. LOL I love it.

Hugs,
Kris

Aww I know, what am I like. Love CDs too. Well most of em anyhow.
Take care
Bev

[Stacy GG]

thankyou RikkiOfLA for that post..it made me laugh and think of many of the cders here who seem to think we should still be living in 1950's. I remember some posts a while back where someone spoke about their mother who would go out wearing nice clothes and makeup to the supermarket, and I'm thinking and is she retired..does she have a huge list of things to do and a limited time to do them? I mean I like to dress up once in a while but most of the time as you said it's not practical and takes up too much time. I think your idea of a boot camp is great :)

[DemonicDaughter]

I know many on here have posted "shame on your friend for not sticking around," but am happy that so many GGs voiced their opinion and showed its easier said than done.

Again, I'm not disillusioned enough to believe this will ever go away or that no one will post something offensive, but I think that it helps to talk things out. Isn't that what we all advise new members? So that's what I'm doing. Talking, getting this out in the open and saying, "hey! This is an issue, let's try to address it!"

[Beth-Lock]

What happened to the idea of a free exchange of ideas ... and opinions? The theory is, given a certain amount of restraint and politeness, the good will drive out the bad in peoples' minds, and more real understanding, if not tolerance, will result.
I could say more, but self-restraint is kicking in.

[mylitta]

I know many on here have posted "shame on your friend for not sticking around," but am happy that so many GGs voiced their opinion and showed its easier said than done.


That's so true. When I first found this site, it was a lifesaver to me, and I found everyone to be supportive. Fortunately I must have hit on a hiatus in the fairly regular GG bashing threads, or I don't think I'd have hung around so long. And now I don't post in the MTF forum because I don't feel welcome and having seen the way the other GGs are treated, I can quite frankly do without it. So I can see why DDs friends feel the way they do, and it's all very well saying they should ignore threads like that, but we all know that first impressions count for a lot.

[Donna Michelle]

I recently attended my first group meeting of CDs and TGs. There were 2 f2m members, 8 m2f members and one GG guest who happened to be my wife. We all had a great time and the others said they hope she attends future events.

My wife sometimes dresses very feminine and other times wears jeans and sleeveless tops while working on home improvements. She actually does not dress very girly when helping the m2f crossdressers dress pretty or apply makeup. She does that so THEY can feel pretty.

Both men and women have dressy days and nondressy days. It isn't about masculinity or femininity. I feel feminine even when I dress as a man for work with only a bra and panties as women's wear. I dress like a woman, so I can look the way I feel. I feel like a woman no matter what I wear. And my wife feels like a woman no matter what she wears.

The posts that say that some m2f crossdressers make an extra effort to LOOK more feminine can be true of some people. My sister-in-law never wears makeup or dresses pretty unless she is going to a wedding or funeral. Some women dress up for work and dress down at home while others do the opposite. No one should take offense by what a few strangers say on this forum, especially since they are NOT the majority.

I can't say how many times I disagreed with people on this forum. Some people are so rude, wrong or confused that I have to avoid or leave discussions. My wife will not join THIS forum since some people really push her buttons. I have to agree with DD that this forum does turn away the GGs. They probably should have their own forum with their own moderators instead of reading our sometimes selfish posts.

[CowGurl Rachel]

To think one has to put on makeup and a silk dress to be feminine? For a CD, I can say yes, if you're out in public. At least the makeup. But, I flip my wig (pun intended) when I see GG's like Gretchen Wilson or Jennifer Nettles (I like county, so sue me) wearing tight jeans! If my wife is wearing a flannel nightgown, I'm trying to find out what she has on underneath. (and I don't mean for clothing's sake, hint-hint). So those CD'ers that cannot get past "appearances" have no argument. Being feminine is who you are regardless of dress, whether you're dacing at a club, or dfinking a long-neck watching NASCAR! (REAL women like fast cars! J/K :heehee:) Get over yourself!:brolleyes: How about a Forum titled, "Ask a GG"? I'd a LOT of questions!!! DD could be the Mod!!:thumbsup:

:hugs::love:

Rachel

[Tamara Croft]

How about a Forum titled, "Ask a GG"? I'd a LOT of questions!!! DD could be the Mod!!:thumbsup:Been there, done that, won't ever make one again... however Loved Ones is more or less the same thing ;)

[TGMarla]

I have to agree with Rikki here. She brings up the very valid point that today's women are far more practical in their clothing choices than women of many years ago.

When CDers lament the passing of skirts and dresses as the clothing of choice for women, one should consider the source. Many CDs are obsessed with skirts, dresses, high heels, and pantyhose. They love wearing them, and likewise, love seeing them on women. It's no wonder that some of these same CDs go on about how bad it is that women "don't dress like women anymore". But times change, and these same CDs are confusing a fashion trend with overall femininity. They are really just lamenting that the fashion trends they found appealing back in the 70s and 80s are no longer valid.

Are dresses "more feminine" than pants? Yes, they are if your definitions include the fact that men wear pants as an acceptable part of their wardrobe, but have no masculine counterpart for dresses as the same acceptable form of clothing. So the rule is, "Only women wear skirts and dresses." This is one reason so many CDs wear them as their clothing of choice.

The workplace has gone to a mostly semi-casual format in clothing over the past 15 years or so. So not only have women opted to wear skirts and dresses less often, men have opted to chuck the suit and tie routine as well. Does this make men less masculine? I think not. And what's good for the goose........

I'm sorry, too, if your GG friends were offended. I think they may have taken some comments the wrong way. Likewise, some of the postings here perhaps could have been more carefully worded.

[Di]

I often feel so sorry for any new GG who joins here. not because of what shes' found out or been told and is having a hard time coming to terms with it,but with the posts she can read, about how a few on here think we don't dress right or YOU look better than us.
.
I agree ...how many times do the new GG'S JOIN...after just finding out........are trying to understand and want to be supportive of the s.o. ....they read some things that scare them to death statements that imply GGs aren't feminine or womanly enough and that the CDers are.And feel heartsick that the s.o. feels the same way. We of course try to tell them talk to their partner...just because SOME have this mind set.. If they stay and we try to get them to....they are afraid to read and or reply to the threads in certain sections.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Wow, DD, great thread.

This is an area that I could go on and on about all year because it has been a bone of contention with me for so long.

Having seen so many threads about how GGs dress, how they "should" dress, and critical threads about GGs in general coming from people who do not have an honest clue what it means to be GG is astounding. Its not just here, its everywhere. Bulletin boards, group get togethers, events etc. Some of the CD community out there (and its not a small percentage) have that high and mighty attitude that is infuriating.

Its even moreso when the responses to someone posting that GGs don't doll up often enough the way a "real" woman should, is something along the lines of "You go girl!"

Then you add in the threads that deal with panties, bras, stilettos, little black dresses, pregnancy pads, and the kind that suggest that THIS is what being a GG is all about. Well...

My wife surfs here every so often and enjoys the majority of what is offered here. She knows that I am here and elsewhere posting and keeping tabs on people I consider friends. Every so often one of those threads pops up and I'll hear her say "What the ---- is THAT all about? Since when do 6 inch stilettos make me a woman?"

On the enjoyable side...She knows many of you through me and will ask (for example)... "Hey, how is Kittypaw, DD, or someone else doing with the situation they posted about last week?" Many times she will offer up her GG opinion on what might help in the situation.

Anyways, I think that some should think hard about what they are going to post and how it affects those around us.

*hugs*

Zarabeth

[Fab Karen]

First, for the CDs. On average, women work much harder than men, both at the office and at home. There might not be quite as much heavy lifting (CDs, you know you won't get out of that), but there's three times as much running around. And you have to do it with a baby on your arm (where applicable). So prepare to have your day off turned into just another work day!


I'm wondering why it's assumed the GG in the relationship will work much harder, when her male partner is fully capable of doing at least some of those things. And btw, on a tangent, not all women want to have children.

In the concept of going to a tranny club or gay club solely for a place to be dressed I agree with your late wife. There are those of us going to a club for dancing & fun, not just a place to be out. & we are fortunate in this town not to be limited just to those choices, there are also some mixed, open-minded clubs where we're welcome. & that doesn't preclude going out to dinner, etc.

The point I'd make is let's not trade one stereotype for another. Whether pointed at GG's, CD's, or whatever category, the more they are used the further people are from reality. Not all CD's spew this archaic talk about "women not dressing like women" etc. Not all CD's live in a fantasy world, etc.

[Chloe Renee]

I was involved in the thread that Tamara posted. I tried to write something that conveyed the message that most cd's are too uptight. I see how what was written could have been terribly misconstrued.
I agree fully with DD's Post and fully understand why her friend or any other GG/FAB wouldn't want to stay. There is a belief that the larger the post count the more important one is to the community. I disagree, many people here, myself included would have much higher counts if we stood up to the people whom we disagreed with. However, imo we don't for fear of rocking the boat. I know that I've wanted to attack people for what they written. But, have stopped because I don't wish to start a flame war. I also have been accused of being a troll on a now defunct F24 board because I disagreed with a "superior"crossdresser.

(Mods edit as needed) There are quite a few thin skinned people here that need to open their closed/delusional minds. I have seen many young members come in and leave because they have a different opinion than the status quo. Our admin has seen this need and made a sub forum. This forum(crossdressers.com) more than any other I've been to, addresses items like that and the GG's to make them feel welcome. But it is (WE) the rank and file, if you will, in general, push our-own away, by being all the things we complain about.

I respect the opinions of the Mods and Admin, I may not agree with all of them. I know the hassle that moderating is. A good forum is self moderating the members manage to keep each other in check.
The team here is good, but the membership is dropping the ball, and I too am to blame.

[Rachaelb64]

I think this is a good thread DD. I must admitt I am guilty of 'running & hiding', mind you I do turn over/off the tv if there is a program I don't like. I think I use the same attitude I use on those type of threads.

Maybe I shall stand up for now on :)

[27th Jennifer]

DD
I had no idea that anything like that was going on. I don't read all the posts, only the ones I find interesting if I even have the time. I'll keep my eyes peeled for these people. We should live by the saying, "if you don't have something nice to say..." There are a lot of fragile egos here, with people just trying to come to terms with their femininity, and the last thing anyone needs is someone out there bringing negative energy to our great group.
Ana

[Amy Hepker]

DD,

I am probably one of those you talked about. I will be the first to admit that I want to be with only a female and I would love to be one also or at least look like and be treated like one. I know I have said some bad things about GGs, but then I have had over 20 GGfriends in my time and of those 2 I was married too. I am with a Lady now that I truly LOVE and plan on marrying someday if she will have me.

I have had some GGfriends that have put me so far down that I never thought I would ever get up again, but I did and I have learned from the experiances all to well. I have learned to be upfront and honest with the GG you plan to spend the rest of your life with, but in doing so have been kicked aside for so called real men. Yet I have yet to see what a real man is supposed to be. The ones I have seen, that I have been told were real men, have beat women up, have been stolen from others, have hurt or destroyed other people or others lives. I am not saying that there are not perfect men out there, and I have had a few friends that I would concider real men. But, most other so called men have problems that must be dealt with too. Anger, emotional, ect, ect.

I believe we as CDers are being whole people and we want and need to be accepted for who we are. We are not trying to cut down or destroy GGs, in fact we want to be with them on the front lines arm in arm. I have said many times here that I have seen GGs that do not look the greatest, but that by no means, means any percentage of GGs. I have seen thousands, that I could never compete with, most are beautiful.

My Lady the other day said she was worried because she felt she would not look as good as I do when I am dressed. I told her We are NOT in competition to be the best female, she would win hands down, I am not, nor ever could be female. I enjoy dressing like one, and that does not mean dresses all the time, but living comfortably dressed as a female. I wear girl jeans a lot of time and very seldom wear dresses any more. I am not in competition with any Female, I just want to be who I am inside. But I also want to be with a Female to LOVE and to hold and be married too. I am not saying I would dress all the time, but most of the time I would.

I sure hope I have not stepped on anybody toes on this one, as I want to be everybodies friend here, CDs as well as GGs.

[Tamara Croft]

Amy Wannabe, what a great post, I think that is your best yet :hugs:

[Celeste]

Hi DD,Why not tell your Friend every time she notes someone commenting about GG's alleged poor dressing habits,She can simply add them to her ignore list,eventually She will have weeded them all out.

[DemonicDaughter]

Hi DD,Why not tell your Friend every time she notes someone commenting about GG's alleged poor dressing habits,She can simply add them to her ignore list,eventually She will have weeded them all out.

Because we shouldn't have to. We all talk about how communication is key and that if the world was better educated on cding it would be more acceptable. Well then it holds true in the other direction! I'm posting to open the lines of communication between GGs, mtf, ftm, ts, tg, etc to help this community understand the how, when, wheres and whys things don't go as smoothly.

Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.

[waspookie6]

There are so many that have spoken up in this thread on all sides of the fence that I've come to adore for who they are - knowing who they are it inside and out (um, I suppose that could be taken both ways :heehee:)

There is one thing I've noticed over and over - if a GG compliments a CD on pictures or ask how to do something with makeup or whatever, it gets little if any response. That is a lack of respect to GG's and in just about every "open" forum here including the FtM and why so many just lurk.
Speaking of - that forum is dwindling as mentioned MtF or CD's merrily drop their two cents in when the same is not accepted in the MtF/CD forums.

I used to participate in numerous discussions here but it all came down to one thing: no acceptance or acknowledgement. That pretty much will stop anyone from even trying to have a meeting of the minds let alone forge a path of social acceptance! I've also yet to find why so many posts have no real tolerance for humor either - there could be some good relationships here if people would look at the emoticons and realize it's not all serious brain surgery at work.

Hopefully DD's big mouth got us onto something greater than just our own little worlds. :D

[TxKimberly]

. . . And just to make a point: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84925

Just read that and you tell me I'm mistaken!

I agree with you - the sentiments put forth in the thread you linked to are hardly admirable. I DO wonder if others would have condemed the thread had it remained open though.

In the interests of fairness though, and to make the point that it is grossly unfair to imply that the CD's here never come to the defense of GG's when idiotic topics like that come up, I offer this link to a thread where the response was immediate and over whelming:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1200789#post1200789

[waspookie6]

Hi DD,Why not tell your Friend every time she notes someone commenting about GG's alleged poor dressing habits,She can simply add them to her ignore list,eventually She will have weeded them all out.


Because we shouldn't have to. We all talk about how communication is key and that if the world was better educated on cding it would be more acceptable. Well then it holds true in the other direction! I'm posting to open the lines of communication between GGs, mtf, ftm, ts, tg, etc to help this community understand the how, when, wheres and whys things don't go as smoothly.

Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.

This is precisely why DD even started this topic - shared acceptance not tunnel vision or skipping on past. That is the crux of the matter.

[DemonicDaughter]

I agree with you - the sentiments put forth in the thread you linked to are hardly admirable. I DO wonder if others would have condemed the thread had it remained open though.

In the interests of fairness though, and to make the point that it is grossly unfair to imply that the CD's here never come to the defense of GG's when idiotic topics like that come up, I offer this link to a thread where the response was immediate and over whelming:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1200789#post1200789

Very valid point. It was never my intention to say ALL cders are like that. But after realizing that it is something that crops up often, I thought a post addressing it would bring about a more open discussion.

Again, I know so many on here do NOT condone those sort of posts but you have to also understand how those posts can be very disconcerting to a new GG member. I wanted to address that and hope to find means of working through it.

This thread is not meant to be a "us vs them" sort of thing, nor is it meant to bash anyone specific. Its meant to raise an issue and work through it like the adults we claim to be... okay, you all know what I mean by that!

[deja true]

I agree with you - the sentiments put forth in the thread you linked to are hardly admirable. I DO wonder if others would have condemed the thread had it remained open though.

In the interests of fairness though, and to make the point that it is grossly unfair to imply that the CD's here never come to the defense of GG's when idiotic topics like that come up, I offer this link to a thread where the response was immediate and over whelming:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1200789#post1200789

Thanks for that reminder, Kim!

[Deidra Cowen]

I am truely sorry your friend and other GGs are offended sometimes by us Crazy CDs. I was looking thru another thread where someone posted about their GF finding their pic...one of the replies was the standard she will be jealous thing you look better than most GGs. Which is indeed rude and borish.

But CDs (me too) are just like everyone else...we have our good points and our bad qualities. Rudeness, vanity, etc. its just human nature.

I do think the mods here keep the riot down to a low roar...props to them!!! :thumbsup:

[Jacqui]

I have used this forum to educate myself and am grateful for the opportunity to read different points of view.

When I answer posts I usually try to inflict (sic) a little humor or levity in a passion whose moods can swing from depression to euphoria.

I don't reply to as many threads as I should, don't like to get politically correct or incorrect. I personally feel that morals and values are good and that some people insist that others can be immoral or value-less as long as it is good for them or makes them feel good, so long as they do no bodily harm. And that it is ok to want and expect people to understand us, but it is not ok if they don't.

DD, for me, every GG that I observe or interact with is like Master Po and I, like Grasshopper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGblsNXkJog

And every GG who posts on this forum is like a Gift, helping to instill a bit of reality into an un-real world.

Jacqui

[battybattybats]

Hmm.
A few folk have suggested that a CD cannot possibly be more feminine than a GG and I find that a bit concerning too. More female sure but more feminine?

I know a number of very non TG masculine women. They are great and beautiful and wonderful people. Some are straight some bi and some lesbian. Everyone is a mix of masculine and feminine traits after all. Isn't it bad to not consider the masculine traits of women valuable too?

I think part of the problem could be a sexust attitude in much of society (amongst men and women) that values only womens feminine qualities and not their masculine ones (and vice versa for men). Effectively judging people for the degree of their gender expression! Their conformity to steroetypes!

People are bombarded by sexist notions throughout their lives. Everyone will be sexist to some extent and we all should accept that and work on undoing that.

Masculine women are beautiful too! They are every bit as valid as people as feminine women. Decrying them or pretending they don't exist are both sexist aren't they?

I think a very very feminine man can indeed be more feminine than a very very masculine woman who will be more masculine than the very very feminine man. I don't see anything wrong with that and I don't suggest for one moment that being masculine invalidates the womans womanhood or femaleness nor feminine the mans manhood or maleness.

We need to respect womens masculinity too! Not insult or deride some for it nor pretend it dosn't exist either.

This whole discussion does show how much transgender brings to the surface all the many facets of the underlying sexism that runs through our society.

[DemonicDaughter]

Hmm.
A few folk have suggested that a CD cannot possibly be more feminine than a GG and I find that a bit concerning too. More female sure but more feminine?...

This isn't a debate on good traits versus bad. This isn't a discussion on if any one group is or isn't more feminine/masculine than the other.

This is about making ANYONE feel they have to live up to certain standards to feel accepted as a human being.

I shouldn't have to defend my attire any more than you. I shouldn't have to do anything more than I already do to be considered "feminine enough". It shouldn't even be a topic of discussion on any forum. But its bound to happen and its going to occur again.

The reason for this thread isn't to point fingers and say "you did/didn't do/say this!" The point is to allow the readers here to think about jokes, statements, threads, posts that ridicule an entire group and either stand up to keep it to a minimal or think before posting such things themselves.

I personally don't care if ANYONE on this forum is more or less masculine/feminine than I am. But I'm not going to allow anyone to openly mock me and the group I'm classified under because THEY want to feel more anything! And I'm certainly not going to allow those who DON'T feel that way be turned away because of it!

THE POINT OF THIS THREAD IS TO LET CDERS AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT THEM KNOW HOW CRUCIAL SOME OF THESE TYPES OF THREADS ARE!

I love my SO and I would fight to the death to keep her from pain. I would do so for any of my friends as well. So I find its my OBLIGATION to defend those I care about. I care about so many on this forum and in this community that when I was told how upset someone was over the dumb things people write, I was hurt for them! And defend as I may, it means little if coming from the non-offensive party! This is why I posted, this is why I wanted to address it. Because like ALL relationships communication is the key. I wanted to communicate an idea I didn't know if any of the other CDers were aware of.

*sigh* and I'm not sure I made the point clear....

[Audrey34]

Wow. After reading all of the posts on this thread I'm just kind of numb. I usually don't jump into controversial topics like this, but maybe it's time I speak up a little more. I'll certainly try to in the future. Speaking for myself, at my Tri-Ess chapter we have 2 GG's who always give me compliments and my response has always been one of absolute delight. These ladies are my friends and I value their opinions very much.
And it's not just certain cd's that wish GG's would dress up more. Many men that I work with have openly expressed dissatisfaction with the way women dress. My response to them has always been: "Well, how would you like it if they told you you had to wear a suit and tie 7 days a week? 10 hours a day, in all kinds of weather?" They get kind of quiet then. Just my observation, that's all. To me, a lady can be very sexy in jeans and sneakers as well as a skirt and heels.
-Audrey

[Deanna]

Would you like me to post all the deleted threads to prove you wrong? One thread does not count for all the ones that have been deleted. One thread doesn't count for the abuse in PM's for stating an opinion. I have personally been called some nasty names on this forum for saying how I feel, so please, don't tell me I'm mistaken, I've been putting up with this :BS: for 4 years, the majority don't see the half of it, it's pulled down before it gets nasty.

And just to make a point: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84925

Just read that and you tell me I'm mistaken!

GEEZE LOUISE!!! There are billions of people in this world. Wouldn't it be a shame if everyone was "perfect"? It's just too bad that people cannot look past the outside and see the inner beauty of humanity.

(In a perfect world :2c:)

[battybattybats]

DD I agree entirely with you and support you 100% in this.
I certainly don't want to derail your important message or to take it off topic. I was responding to what I think is part of the cause of the problem. I think a form of sexism is a big part of the problem.

:hugs:

This is possibly the most important discussion here in a long while.

[GypsyKaren]

GEEZE LOUISE!!! There are billions of people in this world. Wouldn't it be a shame if everyone was "perfect"? It's just too bad that people cannot look past the outside and see the inner beauty of humanity.

(In a perfect world :2c:)

And your point is exactly...what? I hope you're not suggesting that we smile and whistle with the birdies when someone is rude, insulting, or disgusting to us, because the only inner beauty I'll be checking out is my boot up their ass.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Kate Simmons]

What it boils down to DD is respect. We show it, we get it. Why is that so hard for some to understand? Regardless of what we are genderwise or how "male" or "female" we are, it's the people who are important. We are all a Heinz 57 blend anyway. Let's celebrate that diversity and show love and respect for our friends because that is what really makes the world go around. Works for me.:)

[Satrana]

"hey! This is an issue, let's try to address it!"

DD

As someone who has complained about the over-indulgence in femininity and fantasies that are so common in the CD community as being a less than healthy attitude, I agree with the general sentiments you hold. However, I am concerned where your specific POV in this thread is going. It sounds to me that this is a call to censorship. What I hear is that CDs must now bash and be intolerant of other members who hold a point of view that they do not agree with. By doing so we prove our tolerance to laypeople who want to join the forum......somewhere in there is a catch 22, just cannot figure out what it is.

This forum is meant to be a safe place where CDs do not have to hide in fear of others' beliefs of how a CD should think or behave. It is where we can let our hair down and wallow in the stuff that interests us as CDs. If a layperson visits and decides that we are not their cup of tea, then that is fine. We want people to accept us warts and all. If we disgust them then let us part ways.

This forum is for CDs to chat to one another and to advance knowledge and ideas. It is not meant to be an advertisement to convince laypeople to believe we are all cute and cuddly especially if they have no interest in investing their time and effort into finding out who we are by sticking around and talking to us.

You ask what is the adult way to deal with this? Surely that is obvious. In an forum with thousands of members you are guaranteed to come across some whose POV annoys you, maybe even disgusts you. The adult way of dealing with this is to ignore those individuals and strike up friendships and conversations with those whose POV are closer to your own.

The alternative is to drive out members because you disagree with them. At which point this no longer becomes a representative community but a controlled group with a big brother/sister deciding what POVs are allowable. Which will only drive CDs back into the closet as we now have to behave in a manner sanctioned by others. Now I have lost track of who is being intolerant of whom.:hugs:

[erickka]

DD, very well stated post. I always try to see a person as a whole, and on an individual basis. I know very few GG's that wear skirts anymore, but they are still all creatures if inner beauty and femininity. Fully agreed that the clothing DOES NOT make the woman!

[DemonicDaughter]

DD I agree entirely with you and support you 100% in this.
I certainly don't want to derail your important message or to take it off topic. I was responding to what I think is part of the cause of the problem. I think a form of sexism is a big part of the problem.

:hugs:

This is possibly the most important discussion here in a long while.

I know its part of the issues, but we also know that we have to take things a step at a time. To attempt to break down the causes will only take focus off the main topic and thus make this thread pointless. :sad:


...I am concerned where your specific POV in this thread is going...

Let me put your fears to rest then.


It sounds to me that this is a call to censorship.

Yes. You hear correctly. I am. I'm hoping people are intelligent and sensitive enough to censor themselves. I started the thread to make them aware that some of the things they post are hurtful and can drive those who would support them, away.


What I hear is that CDs must now bash and be intolerant of other members who hold a point of view that they do not agree with...

I never said to bash anyone. I said to stand up for what you believe in. I said that if this is something you don't agree with then you should say so. I said ignoring issues doesn't make them go away.


This forum is meant to be a safe place where CDs do not have to hide in fear of others' beliefs....

This forum is NOT just for CDs! Its also for people like ME who has a CDer in their life. For those who are learning to live with a CDer, for those who want a better education on CDing. It is NOT JUST for CDers and that is part of the point.


The adult way of dealing with this is to ignore those individuals and strike up friendships and conversations with those whose POV are closer to your own.

Well then I'm proud to claim I'm not an adult. Because to me, I think the mature way of handling something is to openly discuss it. To work out a sort of resolution or at least try to. Your POV would put us all in little groups never dealing, helping or educating others because we wouldn't interact with those outside our group.


The alternative is to drive out members because you disagree with them...

You seem to think I want to banish those members who made rude comments. I haven't the slightest clue where you got that from but were that the case, I would have posted a link to the threads and exact offensive posts hoping to "drive them away" by either embarrassing them or having everyone verbally abuse them through this thread.

But seeing as I did not do that, it would appear that yet again, I'm attempting to WORK things out.

Honestly, I'd have a hell of a LOT more threads started had I felt the need to argue over EVERY opinion I disagreed with. We need to pick and choose our battles. This one has come up numerous times. Why not try a civil discussion and see what might come out of it?

And for the record, freedom of speech is not freedom of abuse. Censorship has its purpose to a degree. Its not going to make a perfect world and can be just as abused. But anyone's right to self expression needs not border on the line of another persons defamation.

[Tamara Croft]

GEEZE LOUISE!!! There are billions of people in this world. Wouldn't it be a shame if everyone was "perfect"? It's just too bad that people cannot look past the outside and see the inner beauty of humanity.

(In a perfect world :2c:)And it's posts like yours that piss people off, instead of getting a clue, you post crap like this which pisses more people off, what are you a troll? because you come across like one :rolleyes:


In the interests of fairness though, and to make the point that it is grossly unfair to imply that the CD's here never come to the defense of GG's when idiotic topics like that come up, I offer this link to a thread where the response was immediate and over whelming:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1200789#post1200789Yes but look how long ago that thread was and look at the rules in place now forbidding such threads... that was the only way to put a stop to it. Had members of this forum said hey... you shouldn't be posting that, instead of always agreeing, maybe they would have just stopped on their own accord... that is but one thread again Kimberly, there are hundreds deleted, due to the fact that they often turned into a 'bash the gg' or whoever they were discussing.

[Sandra]

I have to agree with DD that this forum does turn away the GGs. They probably should have their own forum with their own moderators instead of reading our sometimes selfish posts.

Erm we have our own private forum here and it's very own mods, but why should we be kept in there? This forum is for cders and their friends and family.

I guess we should just go and sit in there quietly and say and do nothing.

[Holly]

It seems to me that this all boils down to this... if you want to be respected, then be respectful. Honestly, some of the things I've seen said here I would NEVER say to my wife, let alone someone I don't know very well. It is a very shallow person that will attempt to puff up their own self esteem at the expense of someone else's. If you can only feel good by making someone else feel bad, you might be in the wrong place.:sad:

[Daintre]

Erm we have our own private forum here and it's very own mods, but why should we be kept in there? This forum is for cders and their friends and family.

I guess we should just go and sit in there quietly and say and do nothing.


It seems to me that this all boils down to this... if you want to be respected, then be respectful.

Sandra, my goodness, that is the Last place I would like to see you go. It has taken a lot of hard work to get to where we are today, certainly not as far as we wish to be, but a step in the right direction. We all have our private little forums, they have a purpose, but, I want the ability to interact with all members of the Forum, which leads me to Holly's quote. respect, why is it so hard to comprehend that word? No one wants to be dissed, personally I get very upset at some posts that are written, and yes to back up what Tamara has said...you wouldn't believe the trash that has to be deleted.

Finally I will say this, I am sure it will fall on deaf ears, but I am saying it anyway.....there is a tag at the top of the page...says... Rules/FAQ. How many have actually taken the time to read them?. They amply explain what the Forum is about and the conduct we expect from the membership. It irks me to no end that threads like this are necessary.

DD I applaud you for sticking with this issue not throwing your hands up and walking away. This is a community for all of us, the great thing about this is we get to visit most forums here, the least we can do is remember to be respectful.

[GypsyKaren]

It sounds to me that this is a call to censorship.



Yes. You hear correctly. I am. I'm hoping people are intelligent and sensitive enough to censor themselves.

Thank you, DD, that's very well said. I would like to add that if anyone has a problem doing that, we are more than happy to do it for them.

You can take all of the rules here and condense all of them into two words: BE POLITE! Sounds simple enough to me, sounds pretty easy to do, I don't think it's asking too much, but too many don't get it or give a damn. No one has the right to judge anyone else, not here or anywhere, and you can scream insults at whoever you want out your bedroom window, but you won't be doing it here.

Karen Starlene :star:

[CaptLex]

Masculine women are beautiful too! They are every bit as valid as people as feminine women. Decrying them or pretending they don't exist are both sexist aren't they?

I think a very very feminine man can indeed be more feminine than a very very masculine woman who will be more masculine than the very very feminine man. I don't see anything wrong with that and I don't suggest for one moment that being masculine invalidates the womans womanhood or femaleness nor feminine the mans manhood or maleness.

We need to respect womens masculinity too! Not insult or deride some for it nor pretend it dosn't exist either.

This whole discussion does show how much transgender brings to the surface all the many facets of the underlying sexism that runs through our society.
I don't want to take the thread off-topic, but reading this has made me realize something I'd like to share.

Not only does the above-described sexism cause the attitudes and negative comments aimed at GGs (here and everywhere), but it finally explains to me the same attitudes aimed at FtMs. I realize many see us as crossdressing women, generally, and as such they think we're denying our femininity and not embracing what they themselves wish they had. Okay, so it took me long enough to finally get that. :doh:

I thought most here could understand that we're on the opposite side of the same coin, but I guess they're just too blinded by what they think a female-bodied person should be (or look like) to get it.

Anyway, sorry to take things off course a bit - I didn't think the thought needed its own thread because I can see how that attitude affects both FtMs and GGs. Bottom line: don't judge others by how you want to see them, just as you don't want others to judge you by how they think you should be.

It's really sad that so many post here about looking for understanding SOs, but they're not necessarily willing to be understanding in return. They want GGs to like and accept them as they are, but aren't willing to do the same in return. Yes, I know it's not true of everyone here, but there are certainly enough with that attitiude, judging by how hurt the GGs are here. :sad:


What it boils down to DD is respect. We show it, we get it. Why is that so hard for some to understand? Regardless of what we are genderwise or how "male" or "female" we are, it's the people who are important. We are all a Heinz 57 blend anyway. Let's celebrate that diversity and show love and respect for our friends because that is what really makes the world go around. Works for me.:)
Oh if only more people drank from the same tap water you do, my friend. :love:

[smokey]

it's probably all been said, but a few more sentences...thanks for the post DD...i've been on internet forums of various subjects for several years and no matter what the subject, disrespect and poor treatment always come up. have moderated more than one and been on the receiving end of those nasty PM's and posts.

i think we are all more than a whole bunch of initials...CD..GG...M2F...
F2M...SO...under there; we are humans and what we do ultimately comes from that. yes i guess cd's can get caught up in fantasy...gg's can get turned off and scared by reading...people put others down to feel better...but it still comes down to our HUMAN values inside there that can be applied to everything we say or do.

yep holly respect is a key.

i'm new here, there's a lot i haven't read...but i do for sure know respect goes two ways. that's not censorship, it's editing.

[Momarie]

Sometimes I wonder at the anger and viciousness directed toward the GG's on here, either very subtlety or transparently.

Is it women in general that you hate?
When you direct that hatred towards us who are you really angry at?

[Satrana]

Yes. You hear correctly. I am. I'm hoping people are intelligent and sensitive enough to censor themselves. I started the thread to make them aware that some of the things they post are hurtful and can drive those who would support them, away.
But pretty much anything can be construed as hurtful by someone else. What if I said this post hurts my feelings, will you then apologize and withdraw? Your assertion only holds
true if the person knowingly and deliberately said something that he knows is hurtful to another. If he is asserting his POV which he feels is correct and truthful and is not aimed at any particular person then he should not feel under any obligation to censor himself.



I never said to bash anyone. I said to stand up for what you believe in. I said that if this is something you don't agree with then you should say so. I said ignoring issues doesn't make them go away. You may not bash yourself DD but others will, you need only read the comments on this thread to see there are plenty of people who will be eager to take up the cause and attack people if this idea becomes an "official" policy. That is the very real danger in your proposal.




This forum is NOT just for CDs! Its also for people like ME who has a CDer in their life. For those who are learning to live with a CDer, for those who want a better education on CDing. It is NOT JUST for CDers and that is part of the point. I never said it was, I said CDers should be free to be CDers in this forum. Censoring ourselves so as not to offend laypeople who are not interested in getting to know us is a major imposition.




Well then I'm proud to claim I'm not an adult. Because to me, I think the mature way of handling something is to openly discuss it. If the conversation can be kept mature and civil fine, but trying to change people's POV is usually a difficult and thankless task. After all how open are you to understanding their POV and acknowledging you are wrong? If both parties enter a conversation convinced they are in the right then no progress will be made.


Your POV would put us all in little groups never dealing, helping or educating others because we wouldn't interact with those outside our group. Nope, just reflecting whatr happens in real life. We seek out friendship with others who share a similar POV and we limit or ignore contact with those who have opposite and possibly insulting POV. How many Hitler followers or members of the KKK do you seek to engage in conversation? This is realism vs idealism.




You seem to think I want to banish those members who made rude comments. This is the logical conclusion of what will likely happen if members are targeted as having the "wrong" POV, they will be pushed and badgered and eventually be caught in nasty verbal exchanges.


But seeing as I did not do that, it would appear that yet again, I'm attempting to WORK things out. Not you DD, but more zealous members. And how will this be worked out anyway? After all would I be wrong in thinking that the only satisfactorily outcome from your POV would be for these members to cease making statements that you feel are hurtful? You win, they lose?


This one has come up numerous times. Why not try a civil discussion and see what might come out of it? By all means try but so far when others have commented the threads invariably become nasty and personal.[/quote]


And for the record, freedom of speech is not freedom of abuse. Censorship has its purpose to a degree. Who is a member abusing if he claims he feels more feminine than many of the GGs he knows or sees. How do you know this is not in fact correct? You assume that because the CD is a genetic male who is crossdressing that this could not possibly be correct and thus you feel insulted? If you do not know the person then what right have you to question his statement?

As Batty already mentioned, the issue of insult seems to stem partially at least from the inability of people to decouple femininity from genetic womanhood. Femininity is an artificial definition contrived by society, it is not derived from XX chromosomes. Femininity and masculinity are states of mind and being that anyone can access. As a CD I see no insult in another CD believing he is more feminine than many GGs. If he stated that he was more of a woman then that is different. I do not see this forum full of statements that MTF CDs saying they are more womanly than GGs but then I do skip most threads so feel free to prove me wrong in this.

One last thing, most CDs have a poorly developed feminine personality because it is kept mostly in the closet. As a result you are often dealing with the emotional development stage equivalent to a teenage girl going through puberty. It is not uncommon for teenagers to speak with "undue exuberance" due to their exciting exploration of their gender role/ sensuality etc. Maybe some slack is in order over what is probably nothing more than bragging rights? And food for thought - how insulted would you be if a teenage girl said she was more feminine than most of the women she sees on the street, compared to the offense felt when these words are spoken by a MTF CD? :hugs:

[DemonicDaughter]

... Your assertion only holds true if the person knowingly and deliberately said something that he knows is hurtful to another.

Would you not then agree that words like "hideous", "grizzly" and other similar words sound purposefully hurtful? You need not put down anyone else to make the point of how feminine you are or aren't. It is when generalized statements that put down the very thing someone is emulating are made, not only is it hurtful to that group but it also gives the impression that the individual feels they are better than the group. Again, there's no need to put down a group just to make a point.


You may not bash yourself DD but others will, you need only read the comments on this thread to see there are plenty of people who will be eager to take up the cause and attack people if this idea becomes an "official" policy. That is the very real danger in your proposal.

It IS policy! The rules here, clearly state that there are suppose to be NO POSTS belittling or berating others!


I never said it was, I said CDers should be free to be CDers in this forum. Censoring ourselves so as not to offend laypeople who are not interested in getting to know us is a major imposition.

Well, I'm here. I'm obvious interested in getting to know most on here. I have numerous friends here and yet I was insulted by someone else's lack of self restraint. Fine, if you don't want to censor yourself for any new comers or those who want to learn more or what have you, but how about for those that are still here despite all this negativity we sometimes experience?


If the conversation can be kept mature and civil fine, but trying to change people's POV is usually a difficult and thankless task.

I'm not trying to change anyone's pov, I'm trying to get them to understand someone else's. Disagree or not with it. But at least acknowledge it.


After all how open are you to understanding their POV and acknowledging you are wrong?

Read my posts. If anyone ever made me see I posted incorrectly or didn't take their pov into perspective, I've apologized. I'm a big girl and can admit I'm wrong. That doesn't bother me. Hurting other people whom I don't know for no apparent or even personal reason... that bothers me. Again, I don't believe anyone or any world is perfect, but it doesn't hurt to learn a little common courtesy and respect.


We seek out friendship with others who share a similar POV and we limit or ignore contact with those who have opposite and possibly insulting POV.

You'd have to come in contact with those of a different pov to know its different than yours. And to be honest, I don't want a bunch of clones for friends. Diversity is a beautiful thing. I don't have to share a friends pov to consider them a friend.


This is the logical conclusion of what will likely happen if members are targeted as having the "wrong" POV, they will be pushed and badgered and eventually be caught in nasty verbal exchanges.

I'd like to point out, ideas like respect and courtesy for others isn't a "POV" its giving what you ask for.


Not you DD, but more zealous members.

More zealous members here are not moderators and cannot ban anyone for their POV or for arguing.


And how will this be worked out anyway? After all would I be wrong in thinking that the only satisfactorily outcome from your POV would be for these members to cease making statements that you feel are hurtful? You win, they lose?

Its obviously not just me who feels this way. Democracy does work at times you know.


You assume that because the CD is a genetic male who is crossdressing that this could not possibly be correct and thus you feel insulted?

You've obviously never read my previous posts. Again, its not a matter of who is or isn't more feminine/masculine, its learning that the threads posted here affect EVERYONE who reads them. A simply note of specifics or common courtesy does a world of good.


I do not see this forum full of statements that MTF CDs saying they are more womanly than GGs but then I do skip most threads so feel free to prove me wrong in this.

Please see threads posted by both Tamara and TxKimberly.

If you want to continue this debate, I ask that it goes to PM as I have no desire to leave this a two person debate over semantics. I've repeated myself enough with most of this.

I posted to bring attention to the subject.

Here's why:

Kayla, my SO, wouldn't want someone talking about the gender I belong to in a derogatory way. I do not want ANYONE to view Kayla in a derogatory way because of a minority's negative pov. I believe for this to be a true community, it has to work like one.

[Satrana]

It is when generalized statements that put down the very thing someone is emulating are made, not only is it hurtful to that group but it also gives the impression that the individual feels they are better than the group. Again, there's no need to put down a group just to make a point. But how often do we see CDs saying all women are hideous etc. In order for this to be deemed a problem needing attention it has to be a common occurrence made by numerous members. I don't see this.


It IS policy! The rules here, clearly state that there are suppose to be NO POSTS belittling or berating others! I believe the main issue is the claim of certain CDs to be more feminine than most GGs. This statement would not fall under this rule.


Fine, if you don't want to censor yourself for any new comers or those who want to learn more or what have you, but how about for those that are still here despite all this negativity we sometimes experience? Is that not part and parcel of communication and getting along with others? Do you really expect to not to find people whose POV you find offensive in a forum with thousands of members? For the record there are plenty of negative attacks on MTF CDs too. The list of nasty words used against CDs would easily equal those listed above.


I'm not trying to change anyone's pov, I'm trying to get them to understand someone else's. Disagree or not with it. But at least acknowledge it. Somehow I think they already know their POV will not be popular with everyone.


Hurting other people whom I don't know for no apparent or even personal reason... that bothers me. Again, I don't believe anyone or any world is perfect, but it doesn't hurt to learn a little common courtesy and respect. If there is deliberate hurtful attack then that should be tackled by the moderators. If it is a POV then that should be allowed so long as it break the rules of commonly perceived rudeness.



You'd have to come in contact with those of a different pov to know its different than yours. And to be honest, I don't want a bunch of clones for friends. Diversity is a beautiful thing. I don't have to share a friends pov to consider them a friend. Friendship is still based on sharing a common set of values and beliefs. People enjoy diversity when found in people who also share core values. You do not befriend those who offend you.


I'd like to point out, ideas like respect and courtesy for others isn't a "POV" its giving what you ask for. That is in the eye of the beholder. What you find insulting may not be to others. We still end up in a police state where only sanctioned POVs are allowed. Good example of this is the use of Muhammad in the Danish cartoons. Who is right and wrong in that issue? You choose. Depending upon which side of the fence you sit, you will come to completely different conclusions.


Its obviously not just me who feels this way. Democracy does work at times you know. So the will of the majority outweighs the rights of the minority to their POV. This is exactly what is to be feared, morality police deciding what POVs are sanctioned.


its learning that the threads posted here affect EVERYONE who reads them. Many people out there are offended by the very idea of crossdressing. If we follow this line of thought we should close down the whole forum so that we no longer offend these people.


If you want to continue this debate, I ask that it goes to PM No problem but I am not trying to pick a fight with you, my concern is only to draw attention to the dangers of censorship of POVs. If the issue is simple rudeness then report the thread to the moderators to take care of. What I fear is a mob mentality emerging that feels free to badger anyone with a different POV.

As a group struggling to find self acceptance, worrying what laypeople think of our postings should not take precedence over our freedom to express ourselves and that includes exposing our warts and all. If the issue is about someone bragging about being more feminine then just roll your eyes and move on. If the issue is about CDs bemoaning the declining use of dresses and skirts then that is their POV about fashion, if you disagree then roll your eyes and move on. As you said diversity is the spice of life, learn to agree to disagree. That's my POV, feel free to disagree and I hope I did not offend anyone along the way.:hugs:

[Maria2222]

You never make yourself look better by running other people down. Support groups are to support, not detract.

[Bev06 GG]

Anyway, sorry to take things off course a bit - I didn't think the thought needed its own thread because I can see how that attitude affects both FtMs and GGs. Bottom line: don't judge others by how you want to see them, just as you don't want others to judge you by how they think you should be.

:
Exactly.
Abit like me anouncing on a thread that men dont dress mascline any more, and that I looked far more masculine than they did. Although that might go down really well on here.
Bev

[JenniferPaul]

So only a few people really make the disrespectful insulting post. Some pm from the moderators and for really bad offenders not letting their post appear until approved are some of the things that can be done. This forum should not be open to anyone who persistently attacks belittles or threaten anyone.

Most of the people here, like me have the time to read some threads and make a few posts. I rather be out dressed somewhere than talk about it. I would rather make a few positive posts, and do feel I need to counter any post that goes over the top. I leave that to the moderators. Not responding does not mean condoning! But for the record I hereby denounce and condemn any and all derogatory insulting and hurtful post made by any one here in the past or the future and anathema be their POV.

In Communication you can choose what to say and how to say it. You can also choose how you will interpret any message and how you will react to it. You can take a message about expression of femininity as an insult to your self worth as a woman or just a claim that some cd express femininity more that some women do. There is a variety of responses that can be made or no response at all if you choose. Just do not get upset with what others have said. Do not let it effect you.

I hope people will read these comments carefully and reflect on the points made. I also hope you were entertain by this and other post. Do you know what I mean by entertain?

[RobertaFermina]

I have read threads that decry the "plainness" or lack of "femininity" of GGs at large, and said to myself...um...I can understand that point of view, and moved on without commenting.

I haven't taken issue with the most puerile gg-baiting over this, because I felt "consider the source" "what's the point?"

Now I see what the point is. How often do we invite CDers to invite their S.O.'s and Spouses and GFs to view this site to discover what CDers and CDing is really about ? And DARN IT! they do and come to these threads where I once stared and thought "consider the source", and "what's the point?"

How can I be surprised when these women have the same thoughts and reactions ? The difference is that I decided not to be more connected and concerned about a fellow CDer, and these women may decide not to be connected and concerned about their very special CDer, or ALL CDers.

That's a big, and meaningful impact.

I didn't think about it, or do anything about it.

I think I will now, for all our sakes. At the very least, it will show a diversity of views, that, based on results that DD reported, was sorely missing.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Julogden]

Since I've been criticized in the past for disagreeing with what I perceive as being inappropriate stuff here in the past, I now tend to try to ignore stuff that I disagree with, probably quite a few others do the same thing here now too, so that may be why there's a lack of responses correcting people who post about females not dressing girly enough.

But I agree, a CD who criticizes females for not dressing girly enough really ought to stop and think about what they're saying. It's ridiculous, at best.

Carol

[brendaisagirl]

I am Female by Birth, I do not bash the ones that have chosen to be female, so why is so much of the FAB bashed here. If it is infact a female hate thing then take off the female attire. Why are you striving so hard to be something you hate.
Maybe you need to use your company manners.
Brenda

[JessieB]

I agree there are issues and incidences that warrant comment or argument or confrontation or censorship or whatever you want to call it (light on the censorship, please). On the other hand, the Internet has often demonstrated to me that many is the time when the most effective way to deal with a boor without becoming entangled in some exhausting imbroglio is to ... simply ignore him or her. Usually, when he or she doesn't get the attention or he was trying to provoke, he shuts up. I know when one of my threads doesn't get "traction", which is usually the case, I simply let it die a quiet death.

Again, to any GG who rejects the 90% good, or at least benign, in this forum because of 10% bad, well, maybe they're wearing their feelings on their sleeves a bit too much. And it makes me wonder how they cope with the rest of this difficult world we live in.

That said, and while I don't believe GGs should be idolized or granted any special status on this forum, they deserve every bit as much respect, consideration and love as anyone else here.

If they're nice. :D

[Emily Anderson]

That said, and while I don't believe GGs should be idolized or granted any special status on this forum, they deserve every bit as much respect, consideration and love as anyone else here.
If they're nice. :D

Hear hear!

[Tamara Croft]

That said, and while I don't believe GGs should be idolized or granted any special status on this forum, they deserve every bit as much respect, consideration and love as anyone else here.I agree with that 100% and already said so in the other thread that's going... I don't want to be put up on a pedestal and I don't want to hear how fem I'm not... it is all about a lil' bit of respect, that's all :)

[Nicole Erin]

In defense of the CDs who might have the attitude, I will say that for so long and so many times, we get made to feel bad about our lives of dressing. So, if someone other than another "gender" person seems accepting or enjoys it, we don't always know how to take it. We don't know if they will be cool one minute and rude the next, or if they will go and inform everyone on the planet while laughing.

I don't claim to be better than a GG and I don't complain about how they dress either. I have opinions but I keep them to myself. In the GGs defense, us CDs should know how high maintenance being prettied up is. Hose need constant adjustment, makeup needs touched up a lot, it is a hassle.

I am CD, I love the way I look and feel when dressed up, but honestly, I hate the process of getting there. I hate trying to pick an outfit, getting eye makeup perfect [or at least good], and being careful with everything.

I have complained about some GGs' attitudes [cool one day and not so the next] but never about how they look or dress. On the other hand finding a G/F or lover is not an issue so I don't worry about things much.

[DemonicDaughter]

So here I sat for a few days debating on posting this thread. Not so much fear of retribution but of it turning into an all out war. I'm ecstatic neither happened. Okay, so I caught a little slack but mostly just the normal stuff I hear.

ANYHOW!

I wanted to address some comments received as they can almost all be summed up into a few groups....

For those who messaged me asking if this thread was about your particular post(s)/thread(s):

Only if you feel guilty but its not intended as a personal statement against anyone. Merely point out how things can be perceived by those outside this community.

For those that asked if I would "hook them up":

I don't do that. I invite anyone that shows an interest in the idea to come to these forums and discover for themselves if its for them. This was a reason for the post, to make those looking for SOs a bit more conscious of how the community and they are being viewed by others. Good, bad or indifferent (was that on the peeve thread?) at least you have the option of knowing what some think instead of going along blindly and unaware.

For the one that commented I look "mannish":

Thanks. :D I take pride in who I am and do not find masculine terms offensive. Actually... in my line of work, its a hell of a compliment.

For those that expressed a sense of enlightenment and sincere thanks for posting:

I hope to continue bringing you all something to think about to help you find your own sense of self, enlightenment and/or peace with however you choose to act.

For the one who talked with me for over an hour and in that time became a true friend:

Hunnie, I hope to meet you in person in January. You are a very special individual. :hugs:

To the others who think I have a big mouth, chip on my shoulder or a bone to pick:

Oh hell yeah! But I guarantee, its not how you think. ;)


Love to all and thanks for replying.

[battybattybats]

Is it women in general that you hate?
When you direct that hatred towards us who are you really angry at?

Might I suggest internalised transphobia? People hating themselves and then projecting anger at both themselves and those who unknowingly function as triggers of their hated aspects? Repression is a messy subject and riddles people with internal inconsistencies and magnified dichotomies of internal dialogue. The same can be seen amongst other communities who have been similarly repressed. Like Gays who think only 'straight acting' gays are ok and hate the rest of the gay community and who blame the camp gays and drag queens for the trouble they have in finding acceptance.

Regarding censorship, in general and amongst adults I consider it intellectual cancer. Easilly missed, hard to treat, spreads insidiously and often rapidly and very often fatal.

However encouraging people to educate others as to why some will be justifiably outraged and deeply hurt is a very good thing. Discussion and debate is a better treatment than silence as it deals with the cause and not the symptoms.

It's also worth considering that the GGs have a private place where they can discuss themselves without there words being available to their spouses or the general public. Thats a good thing, a great and important resource for people to be able to deal with feelings and issues that they are moving through without self-censorship, without being judged. The MtF section is open. Rather than having the freedom of privacy to express real feelings even if they are irrational or (to use the cognitive behavioural therapy terms) 'warped' or 'unhelpful' instead everything is open for others to see. If we must keep the MtF section nice to portray a good image to others, how are we to deal with the emotions and fix the problems we face?

Lets remember that the incidence of mental health problems of repressed people is very very much higher than the average because of that repression.

We should expect higher incidences of sexism, homophobia, transphobia, self-hatred, deferrment activities and damaging 'coping strategies' like cutting, alcohol abuse and other self-harm activities as well as suicidal thoughts and attempts. All stemming from peoples repression and the transphobia of society. While we have a mental health issues section we need to remember that there will be hardly a single Cder without some degree of damage from their repression.

So a primary fundamental part of this site if it is to live up to the notion of being a support site is to help people through those very issues! We need to honestly face the harmful results of CDs repressions and as compassionatly as possible because if we toss out the folk with the most problems we toss out the people with the greatest need. We would be contributing to their harm rather than meeting their needs! Sure we need to maintain an effective community to provide that support but we must be careful not to fail our moral and ethical (and when the legal status of the net is eventually resolved possible our legal) 'duty of care'.

Because of that I think we all need to consider our obligations to others on this site. We are all responisble for helping each other through the painful legacy of our repression. The inmates are running the asylum and we are the inmates. We need to remember that this isn't just a social site for pleasant chit-chat. That part of it is part of it's therapeutic aspects.

So because of that we cannot be censorious towards problems common to CDs (painting over rust essentially) but instead be in a constant state of education and healing, of ourselves and our sisters and brothers and their families and friends and society in general. We should speak out at those kinds of comments that DD has pointed out, not to shout down other viewpoints but to educate the commentors about what the consequences are of what they say (and that's as easy as "Hey, you wouldn't like to be called 'grizzly' so don't do it to others") and heal the damage that all of us carry to some extent or other from living in a transphobic, homophobic, sexist, racist, ageist, ablist et al society.

And this discussion is part of that very proces.

[Sharon]

I swear -- I would pay a fortune for someone to provide me with a condensed version of some of the posts in this forum.

And some of my clients wonder why I charge so much to edit their stuff. :rolleyes:

[kendra o'riley]

Don't you realize how conceited and snobbish you sound when you claim that a GG would be jealous of a good looking CD? How can you not realize how such statements affect how you are viewed as a person?.
Unfortunately Sis...
They do not. (that is, realize ANY of the questions you posed - but then, that's the point isn't it - they are unaware of what they've said after it leaves their own mouth, so what can we do?) Now, I've never shrunk away from a good, ahem, shall we say discussion... but you've done it here Girl, and many of us are saying BRAVO!

And that said - let's be real.. which is what a good many of us want - to be real. And that's how we feel on the inside. Lovely, Beautiful. Caring. Feminine. When we are less than any of these we aren't worth our lipstick. And for the small minority who are just playing dress up - do that - and as a sisterhood with broad (pun intended) spectrum we are at least within our rights to ask that all of us keep it respectful.

And Dear DemonicDaughter... part of that R-E-S-P-E-C-T you demonstrated here so elegantly... you spoke up.

Cheers - but never give up sweetheart!

[battybattybats]

I swear -- I would pay a fortune for someone to provide me with a condensed version of some of the posts in this forum.

And some of my clients wonder why I charge so much to edit their stuff. :rolleyes:

I have chronic fatigue syndrome. Some of it's symptoms involve cognitive impairment. AKA thinking problems. I was classed as 'gifted' at an early age. Particularly in writing. So when my symptoms are bad I end up being long-winded because being succinct requires a literally painful amount of effort wheras my long-winded creative and essay writing style is habitual and therfore requires far less effort, less exhaustion and less pain. And when I say painful I really do mean actually physically painful, a stapping pain in the head and a risk of worsening my other symptoms. Not a little but a lot too. It's a consequence of the mulfunctioning mitochondria in every cell of my body. The brain has a lot of cells in it and uses a great deal of the bodies cellular energy.

I realise you probably had no idea about that and so don't mean to be bigoted towards my disability. But please bear it in mind in the future.

I'm sorry that the results of my disability might cause you some discomfort but I really can't take pain relieving medication for every single post I make.

[Dena]

Having only read the original post, I have to say I totally agree with DD. I don't see any value in judging people. I don't respond to these threads because I don't read them!

[DemonicDaughter]

I swear -- I would pay a fortune for someone to provide me with a condensed version of some of the posts in this forum.

And some of my clients wonder why I charge so much to edit their stuff.

pay Up!

[DemonicDaughter]

Hahaha methinks someone has waaaaaaay too much time on her hands lol
That was good...... I like it

Naw, just a good document editor, replace button, the ability to type 72 wpm, a sense of humor and the need to get my SO another sexy pair of heels. :D

Though it is derailing my own thread, I thought a bit of humor might lighten the mood. I honestly think this thread made a lot of people think and thats always good. I'm actually quite proud of this thread and those that posted. :)

[Marlena-4now]

Seems she stumbled across a few threads that ...put GGs down for how they dress .....
The bottom line is - for a CD'r to criticize anyone for how they choose to dress is the height of hypocrisy. Isn't that exactly what we all are clamoring for - the ability to wear what we want and look how we want without being ridiculed ?!? Then how can we turn around and commit the same crime - of intolerant righteousness and insensitivity that we are always bitching about ourselves - by judging someone by what they choose to wear ???? It is a mind boggling display of double standards and it bugs the heck out of me.

[DemonicDaughter]

Exhibit A (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1347275&postcount=31)

Now how would you take that post if you exchanged MTF for GG?

[Kieron Andrew]

Exhibit A (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1347275&postcount=31)

Now how would you take that post if you exchanged MTF for GG?

:Angry3::rolleyes::doh:

[Beth-Lock]

... Repression is a messy subject and riddles people with internal inconsistencies and magnified dichotomies of internal dialogue. The same can be seen amongst other communities who have been similarly repressed. Like Gays who think only 'straight acting' gays are ok and hate the rest of the gay community and who blame the camp gays and drag queens for the trouble they have in finding acceptance.
....
... encouraging people to educate others as to why some will be justifiably outraged and deeply hurt is a very good thing. Discussion and debate is a better treatment than silence as it deals with the cause and not the symptoms.

..... If we must keep the MtF section nice to portray a good image to others, how are we to deal with the emotions and fix the problems we face?

Lets remember that the incidence of mental health problems of repressed people is very very much higher than the average because of that repression.

....While we have a mental health issues section we need to remember that there will be hardly a single Cder without some degree of damage from their repression.

So a primary fundamental part of this site if it is to live up to the notion of being a support site is to help people through those very issues! ... if we toss out the folk with the most problems we toss out the people with the greatest need.

Because of that I think we all need to consider our obligations to others on this site. We are all responsible for helping each other through the painful legacy of our repression .... We need to remember that this isn't just a social site for pleasant chit-chat. That part of it is part of it's therapeutic aspects.

And this discussion is part of that very process.

You have said so much that I agree with, and in general, lots to provoke thought -- which is good. And a long post is likely the best way to get the thinking process kick started, and not something to worry about, I think. Carry on!

[jackie storm]

I've been debating posting this for a few days now but think perhaps it should be addressed. I'm well aware that many may not care and others will continue anyway but I have to try.

See, numerous times I've been asked if I have any GG friends that are as interested in Tgurls as I am. And indeed I did. But as I sent them to these forums they seemed to have lost interest. I had no idea why and assumed that when presented with the idea in reality, that it suddenly didn't appeal to them. Well, an email from the last person I sent here rather clarified things for me.

Seems she stumbled across a few threads that she took rather offensively. They talked about how CDers were more feminine than GGs, put GGs down for how they dress in today's society, or made statements that implied GGs aren't feminine or womanly enough and that the CDers are.

According to her email, she felt that there was too much competition and she had no desire to date anyone that couldn't accept her for who she was. She made several references regarding specific posts and stated that for a group of people who want to be accepted for who they really are, these posts reflected quite poorly on the whole. When I tried to argue that it isn't all CDers who felt that way, she made a hell of point in that no one corrected them except moderators. She stated that had she found one post in those threads that told the opposite view, not just a slight slap on the wrists, she would have considered staying. But she didn't and doesn't want to bother now.

How on earth are we suppose to bring others to accept and understand CDing even on a general level when these sort of posts not only continue to go up, but so few say a word to stop! Even if you DO feel that way, don't you realize how hurtful it sounds to someone else? How would you feel being told you would never pass? Aren't feminine enough? Aren't dressing how you are expected to? Don't you realize how conceited and snobbish you sound when you claim that a GG would be jealous of a good looking CD? How can you not realize how such statements affect how you are viewed as a person?

I don't live in a fantasy world in which everyone is perfectly PC or where no one disagrees with how other's live, dress or act. But I don't understand how or why, a group of people that wish the world didn't look down on them or discriminated against them, could do that very same thing to the gender they are emulating!

For those of you who don't do this and/or stand up to it, I applaud you for showing others the same respect you are requesting for yourself.

We are simply not in competition with GGs although some think so. We want to be the best we can be and feel right and good about it.

[Beth-Lock]

DD, Judging from your Avatar, you do not look mannish!

[DemonicDaughter]

DD, Judging from your Avatar, you do not look mannish!

Thank you. :) I think they were trying to insult me and calling me less "lady like" but then again, they obviously don't know me nor read my other posts. It takes so much more than that to insult me. LOL!

[Sarah Rabbit]

pay Up!
Ohh...you do have Waaaaay too much time on your hands:p

Sarah R. :bunny:

[Sharon]

pay Up!


This shows what a great editor you could be! I could read your version and still get the gist of what most(notice the italics, huh?) of the posts are saying. You have any idea how much I would have earned by doing what you have done? Gads, it would have been in the tens of cents at a minimum! So..., I will be more than happy to compensate you accordingly. :)

Okay, enough of me posting off topic(I will be giving myself an infraction momentarily) so let's move forward and reply to the topic at hand.

[TxKimberly]

pay Up!

OMG That was SO funny! Thanks for taking the time to make us smile DD! :-)

[DemonicDaughter]

Ohh...you do have Waaaaay too much time on your hands:p

Sarah R. :bunny:

Naw, just a hell of a sense of humor. ;)


This shows what a great editor you could be! I could read your version and still get the gist of what most(notice the italics, huh?) of the posts are saying. You have any idea how much I would have earned by doing what you have done? Gads, it would have been in the tens of cents at a minimum! So..., I will be more than happy to compensate you accordingly. :)

Okay, enough of me posting off topic(I will be giving myself an infraction momentarily) so let's move forward and reply to the topic at hand.

I was going to leave it as something fully readable, but then realized I would be badgered by those who felt I unfairly left out parts of their replies and/or made them sound foolish. So I tried to edit it along the lines of playing fair and still making it humorous. :D Now, PAY UP!


OMG That was SO funny! Thanks for taking the time to make us smile DD! :-)

A beautiful smile like yours needs to bee seen as much as possible, and I'm honored to know I might have put one there. :battingeyelashes:

[waspookie6]

Wouldn't someone saying "you've got too much time on your hands"...and not in a good way...be pot calling the kettle black?
Doesn't matter who it is: CD/TM/GG/TG will tell you how much time it takes to get "dressed" particularly if they are going out. It's just swapping time set for one thing to do something else, nothing more :strugglin

[DemonicDaughter]

Wouldn't someone saying "you've got too much time on your hands"...and not in a good way...be pot calling the kettle black?
Doesn't matter who it is: CD/TM/GG/TG will tell you how much time it takes to get "dressed" particularly if they are going out. It's just swapping time set for one thing to do something else, nothing more :strugglin

Hunnie, I don't think they meant it that way at all. They were referring to my "editing" job on this thread. Click here! (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1346977&postcount=135)

[Raquel June]

DD:

I agree with your observations, but I don't agree with your conclusion.

It's easy to go into the picture forum and see M2Fs saying how wonderful and feminine each other look. Often they say things like, "Any GG would love to look that good!" It's ridiculous, and such affectation is patronizing and might do more harm than good if it is believed, but flaming people who think they're being nice is tough to do tactfully. I have very little tact, so I try to avoid saying anything. As an aside, you must admit that while overt aggression is a male trait, building yourself and your friends up by putting others down is a female trait.

Please forgive me if I go to far with the devil's advocate approach. I'm having a weird, kinda emotional day (but I think DD knows I really like her and Kayla).

Let's look at the bigger picture. This forum is full of guys trying to look like girls. Most topics concern themselves with outer appearance. Let's give things arbitrary points for femininity. A gown gets a 5. A dress gets a 4. A skirt gets a 3. Flared low-rise jeans get a 2. Baggy jeans get a -2. If you wanted to look as feminine as you possibly could, you'd be wearing 100 pink petticoats and huge bows in your hair.

If you (being a GG) were wearing baggy jeans and Nikes standing next to a crossdresser wearing a prom dress and high heels, on at least some level you are the less feminine one. You'd still be a normal woman and the crossdresser would probably look ridiculous, but you are in less feminine attire. Femininity doesn't necessarily equate with passability.


But I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me I'm somehow less of a woman because I wear jeans. And THAT was her sentiments. How can I argue when no one else does? How can I defend any CDer when they themselves don't voice an opinion?

At that point it's semantics. As far as your attire is concerned, you are less of a woman. As I'm typing, I'm sitting here in nothing but boxer briefs. I have very little body hair and my toenails have a few coats of Revlon Raisin. If I was standing next to a stinky bearded construction worker wearing jeans, work boots and a hard hat, it would be hard not to admit that I was less of a man.

So, people can look all kinds of feminine and look ridiculous. People can be all kinds of masculine and look ridiculous. A lot of crossdressers get caught up in trying to look feminine without much regard for what real girls look like. It's hard not to. I'm certainly guilty of going a little overboard on the makeup and stockings to compensate. I know I'll never be passable -- I'm taller than most men, and I have bigger shoulders than most men. If I dressed like a real girl I'd probably look like an average guy who wasn't even trying to look like a girl.

Of course, you can say, "What I wear doesn't make me a woman or not a woman. It's what's on the inside," but that doesn't help anything. If it's all about the "inner you," then there's a good chance that many crossdressers on here actually are more of a woman than you are.

Your tone could be pretty hurtful to the transgendered. It looks like you're saying that no matter how good a TGirl looks, she will never be as much of a woman as you are, even if you put zero effort into being feminine. That's actually the truth for 99% of the people on here, but they don't want to hear it. I think the comments that offended your friend were probably comments coming from someone who knew that and resented it. Some people can't help looking at GGs and thinking, "Why couldn't I be a girl? Look at her! She's a real girl and she doesn't even try to look pretty!" They're the ones saying, "I give up!" as they sob about how unfair life is.

Crossdressers generally dress in a much more feminine way than GGs do. Don't try to take that away from them by saying your genetics trumps all of that no matter what they wear. Obviously they understand that's the reality. The few passable crossdressers are passable because of good feminine genetics. Let the other ones over-emphasizes the clothing side, though. Look at the name of the forum, after all.




This isn't a debate on good traits versus bad. This isn't a discussion on if any one group is or isn't more feminine/masculine than the other.

This is about making ANYONE feel they have to live up to certain standards to feel accepted as a human being.

I shouldn't have to defend my attire any more than you. I shouldn't have to do anything more than I already do to be considered "feminine enough".

You certainly shouldn't have to defend your attire, and a friend will be a friend no matter what you're wearing, but being 100% accepted is not the same as being 100% feminine. It can be easily argued that jeans aren't as feminine as a dress. I hope you're simply arguing that it's OK not to dress all girly.

Certain clothes are more feminine, otherwise crossdressing would not exist.

Let's try to make sure this is about respect of GGs, not about making crossdressers admit their lack of true femininity. I know it must get quite irritating seeing all the comments about CDs dressing more feminine than GGs, but it's the truth. They do it to compensate. They do it because wearing jeans like they do every other day doesn't make them feel feminine. It's totally unfair for them to attack you as a woman, but I think most of the time the comments are just silly comments trying to talk about how girly they feel. I usually just roll my eyes and think, "Give me a break!" (although we've seen a few examples here of posts that were totally out of line and anti-GG).



Anyway, you seem to have concluded that your friends are no longer interested in CDs because of the comments regarding GGs. I doubt they were all that interested in the first place. This is an internet forum with over 10,000 members. Somebody's going to say something you don't like. They will find people being disrespectful to women on any forum, and the mods make sure that this one is a better place than most for those with fragile feelings. Your friends should've seen that those who offended them were just a subset of the community, and that many others are great people. If they're unable to separate the wheat from the chaff, they would've eventually been much more offended by stumbling across the sexual escapades of some crossdressers and assuming that we all share the same proclivities.

All that said, I do agree with your main point. If you read a thread where someone's being out of line, go ahead and tell them. I just have trouble with that, because I tend to get a little out of line myself in responding.

I know you'd like to see crossdressers being more responsible as a community and keeping each other in line, but that's a tall order. I am embarrassed to be associated with many of the people on this forum, and almost every time I go out to a club I am embarrassed to be associated with other crossdressers. Most are either totally anti-social or just trying to hook up, and besides the obvious similarities in our behavior I find that I have nothing in common with them. But I have a great time with the non-CD crowd :)




And when she can post to the women-only board, she can ask stuff like "what the f is wrong with x" or "why so many bra and panty posts". LOL

There are already plenty "WTF" posts in the M2F sections. You just have to look for them. For example, certain people get really excited about wearing pantyhose, and they make a lot of posts about pantyhose. Those of us who never wear pantyhose don't have much to say about that. If we did, it would be pretty troll-ish. But there are still plenty "WTF" posts. They're just outnumbered by the "What kind of panties do you wear?" posts.




My second thought is that the only reason moderators are the only people who'll step in and stop the crap that's going on around here is because a lot of people actually think those sickly sweet posts, hemmorhaging with emoticons are actually feminine.






What I hear is that CDs must now bash and be intolerant of other members who hold a point of view that they do not agree with. By doing so we prove our tolerance to laypeople who want to join the forum......somewhere in there is a catch 22, just cannot figure out what it is.

There's no catch-22. Some people just have ridiculous ideas about tolerance. Do you think the world should've been more tolerant of the Nazis? Your tolerance of a person should end as soon as that person starts being an a-hole. If it doesn't, you are no longer tolerant -- you're just weak.

[DemonicDaughter]

...I have very little tact, so I try to avoid saying anything.

At least is a more justifiable response to say, "I know I can't comment tactfully" than it is to have no excuse at all.


As an aside, you must admit that while overt aggression is a male trait, building yourself and your friends up by putting others down is a female trait.

That I see has a human trait. I agree, its more common to hear a woman comment on another's appearance but growing up in a male household taught me that men do the same, only in different subjects.


Please forgive me if I go to far with the devil's advocate approach. I'm having a weird, kinda emotional day (but I think DD knows I really like her and Kayla).

That I do, and you know I respect you more for stating your mind. :) I never look for anyone to agree with me, as a matter of fact, I tend to get agitated over those that seem to do nothing but agree with me! LOL! I obviously don't mind like-minded people, but highly doubt I say things everyone would agree with. I also prefer an intelligent debate than a stupid argument, so when I saw you posted, I knew I was in for it. :D You've yet to ever disappoint me. :hugs:


...If you wanted to look as feminine as you possibly could, you'd be wearing 100 pink petticoats and huge bows in your hair....

Here's the thing, I know I tend to be the exception to the rule in being gender blind, but I don't think attire makes anyone more or less of anything. It can make you appear less feminine/masculine but it doesn't actually change your level thereof.

I do see what you mean and fully understand. Were appearances the only tell tale ruler for femininity/masculinity, then yes, certain appearance would conclude I was less feminine, but I disagree it makes me less of a woman.


Of course, you can say, "What I wear doesn't make me a woman or not a woman. It's what's on the inside," but that doesn't help anything. If it's all about the "inner you," then there's a good chance that many crossdressers on here actually are more of a woman than you are.

Oh without a doubt! I find some people on here far more feminine and more womanly than I. But that still doesn't make me less of one, just not on their level. And clothing has nothing to do with it.


Your tone could be pretty hurtful to the transgendered. It looks like you're saying that no matter how good a TGirl looks, she will never be as much of a woman as you are, even if you put zero effort into being feminine.

I think being a woman, and being feminine are two very different things. I know woman who aren't feminine and men that are. Clothing can make you appear feminine, but they certainly don't make you feminine (as you yourself have pointed out in other posts). I don't think clothing makes you any more or less of your gender (and for clarification purposes, those that identify as a woman, regardless if physical attributes will be the first to tell you that a woman is a woman no matter what she is wearing).


...I think the comments that offended your friend were probably comments coming from someone who knew that and resented it...

Maybe so. I wanted to know and posted to find out. I have no doubts many people are envious of what they don't have or aren't. I just don't agree that it should be something that is allowed precedence here.


Crossdressers generally dress in a much more feminine way than GGs do...

Again, I don't think my genetics make me more or less feminine than anyone else. And you know as well as I do, that I would never wish to take such an important thing away from anyone. I'm not here putting anyone down. I just don't want to be put down either.


I hope you're simply arguing that it's OK not to dress all girly.

Actually, my argument isn't about clothing at all. Its also not how I view others. Its technically not even about anyone being more or less anything than other people.

Its about how things can be viewed outside this community. When you read posts of members wondering why this community is looked down upon, why they are scorned or why things aren't more widely accepted, I can't help but want to say... "well... look at it from 'this' perspective." Here's someone that was interested in the idea. Came here to see what it was about. Lurks for a few months. Debates on posting but then feels like its too competitive, too focused on appearances and too few people saying much to the contrary.

I'll admit I don't want anyone to say what I look like makes me less of a person but that's not the main point of all of this. Its merely that you (like all other groups, cultures, societies, etc) are judged by your peers. I'd rather someone say, "this is how it looks form the outside" so I can decide if I can accept that view or fight for someone I want to be seen as.


Let's try to make sure this is about respect of GGs, not about making crossdressers admit their lack of true femininity.

How about just respect for yourself and others. That's really what this was about. It wasn't meant for just GGs. It was meant as in how strange it was for a group of people to demand acceptance but not show it at the same time (this is not in reference to all cders).


...This is an internet forum with over 10,000 members. Somebody's going to say something you don't like...

I don't think any of them expected perfection and a happy shiny place when they came here. I'm pretty sure they know idiots lurk on every forum.


...I know you'd like to see crossdressers being more responsible as a community and keeping each other in line, but that's a tall order.

I know... I'm ever hopeful for at least self-monitoring... :heehee:

[Ashley in Virginia]

My head hurts

[Nicki B]

I think being a woman, and being feminine are two very different things.

That's the crux, particularly in this community, isn't it? And looking feminine and acting/thinking in a feminine way can also be poles apart - but we may as individuals have different objectives?


It was meant as in how strange it was for a group of people to demand acceptance but not show it at the same time (this is not in reference to all cders).

If we, as a community of M2Fs, want to avoid being 'judged' ourselves, it does seem strange to so often pass judgements on others? There is always the teensiest possibility that we could be wrong, for starters...

[Raquel June]

I think being a woman, and being feminine are two very different things.

Certainly, but doesn't admitting it make crossdressing a joke? Even those of us who are OK just being accepted as a weirdo trying to be feminine would prefer to be accepted as a woman. That's the Holy Grail of crossdressing.

Again, I agree that many here (probably including myself) have said unfair/unreasonable/inappropriate/unacceptable things regarding GGs, and I'm not defending that. I'm saying that the motivation is rarely malicious. What manifests as an overt attack on women is just frustration -- frustration at what the poster sees as a great cosmic injustice, so responding to negative comments could be hard to do without really setting some people off.


edit -- Oops. Looks like Nicki said about the same thing, and I'm just a copy-cat!

[DemonicDaughter]

That's the crux, particularly in this community, isn't it? And looking feminine and acting/thinking in a feminine way can also be poles apart - but we may as individuals have different objectives?

If we, as a community of M2Fs, want to avoid being 'judged' ourselves, it does seem strange to so often pass judgements on others? There is always the teensiest possibility that we could be wrong, for starters...


Certainly, but doesn't admitting it make crossdressing a joke? Even those of us who are OK just being accepted as a weirdo trying to be feminine would prefer to be accepted as a woman. That's the Holy Grail of crossdressing.

Again, I agree that many here (probably including myself) have said unfair/unreasonable/inappropriate/unacceptable things regarding GGs, and I'm not defending that. I'm saying that the motivation is rarely malicious. What manifests as an overt attack on women is just frustration -- frustration at what the poster sees as a great cosmic injustice, so responding to negative comments could be hard to do without really setting some people off.


edit -- Oops. Looks like Nicki said about the same thing, and I'm just a copy-cat!

But not all MtF express wanting to be a woman, correct? I think they all express wanting to be feminine though. I suppose in a lot of ways its very difficult to distinguish what it is to be a woman and what it is to be feminine. That was the hardest argument I had when responding to my friends email. I certainly don't think everyone who has ever said, "GGs don't dress feminine" is saying it to be malicious but when words like "hideous", "grizzly", etc. are used, meant vicious or not, it would be difficult for someone outside this community to see it as anything but. And that was the point really. Just a sort of "heads up".

A little, if you didn't mean what you said then you should say what you mean. If you don't want others to assume you feel the same, you should voice what you do feel (with tact of course, lol).

[Raquel June]

But not all MtF express wanting to be a woman, correct?

There's plenty who would and plenty who wouldn't. What doesn't get addressed very often is everyone's bigender feelings. Even if they don't identify as CDs, most people would like to see what life was like as the opposite sex for an afternoon. Femininity aside, 95% of CDs I've talked to, even if they don't want to be a woman permanently, would greatly prefer to be accepted as one while en femme. The ones who wouldn't are perverts who just dress for the kink factor.




I certainly don't think everyone who has ever said, "GGs don't dress feminine" is saying it to be malicious but when words like "hideous", "grizzly", etc. are used, meant vicious or not, it would be difficult for someone outside this community to see it as anything but. And that was the point really. Just a sort of "heads up".

Yeah, and I'm with you in hoping more people will give that needed heads-up. I think a lot of the regulars don't even bother clicking on threads with topics that tend to degenerate like that, though.

[Beth-Lock]

DD:
.... I know I'll never be passable -- I'm taller than most men, and I have bigger shoulders than most men. If I dressed like a real girl I'd probably look like an average guy who wasn't even trying to look like a girl.

.... I know it must get quite irritating seeing all the comments about CDs dressing more feminine than GGs, but it's the truth. They do it to compensate. They do it because wearing jeans like they do every other day doesn't make them feel feminine.

.

In essence, CD's dress in a deliberately extra-feminine way to compensate, both to try and pass or come closer too it, and to feel more like a woman, or at least feel that they look more like a women.

Maybe that is part of my problem personally. I tend to dress more like a regular woman does, and end up looking particularly unpassable. Still worse, if I wear women's pants, and a shortish wig, I end up being addressed as 'Sir,' by strangers I have to deal with.

Those comments do have a real world ring of being factual.

[Emily Anderson]

In essence, CD's dress in a deliberately extra-feminine way to compensate, both to try and pass or come closer too it, and to feel more like a woman, or at least feel that they look more like a women.

That may just be a phase.

I used to like the ultra-girly look and tried to squeeze into a lot of clothing that could only be worn by the slimmest and fittest of women. Needless to say, I looked like, well... not much!

Nowadays I know more or less what could look good on me, and avoid the fantasy stuff... It does better over time. I think it's a bit akin to teenage girls trying to find a style that suits them, and going through a lot of trial and error.

[Nicki B]

Certainly, but doesn't admitting it make crossdressing a joke? Even those of us who are OK just being accepted as a weirdo trying to be feminine would prefer to be accepted as a woman.

Not a copycat.. :)

Speaking for myself - I believe I'm feminine in many ways, but I'm also comfortable being accepted as transgender.. To me, that feels more honest? For many people who meet me though, who can only deal with a binary, they are more comfortable treating me as a woman. I see myself as an 'in-betweenie'?


There's plenty who would and plenty who wouldn't. What doesn't get addressed very often is everyone's bigender feelings. Even if they don't identify as CDs, most people would like to see what life was like as the opposite sex for an afternoon. Femininity aside, 95% of CDs I've talked to, even if they don't want to be a woman permanently, would greatly prefer to be accepted as one while en femme. The ones who wouldn't are perverts who just dress for the kink factor.

I don't think I fit your definition - but I'm certainly not in it to get my rocks off.. ;)

[Raquel June]

Nicki:

I was actually kinda thinking along the lines of what you just said after I posted, but I'd already been thinking about it too long.

When I'm at an accepting place -- where people know what I am and they're OK with it and nice to me and not freaked out, I'm happy. To be honest I'm not sure if I'd be much happier if I was a real girl and treated as such.

It's just so hard for me imagine that feeling in everyday life. What if I could just walk around town like that without getting creepy looks? Maybe that'd be all I was looking for.

That makes me think of something that happened a month ago... There was a drag show on a college campus that I went to, and it started at 7pm. When you're on campus at 7pm, you run into a lot of people in their 30's and 40's taking evening classes. All the classes I've taken have been on the south side of campus, but the drag show was on the north side. I parked and was looking for the correct building. I was dressed a little strangely in a Hello Kitty shirt, a short pleated velvet skirt, fishnet arm warmers, fishnet stockings, and knee-high 4" boots. Two ladies walked past me and tried very hard not to make eye contact, then a little boy (probably about 4 years old) ran up to me and said, "Hey, lady!" and just kinda gazed up at me with a big smile. I said, "Hey!" back in a really friendly voice, and then walked over to his mom and asked her if she knew where Fawcett Hall was. She just said, "no," and tried not to make eye contact.

I'm not sure why that little kid made me so happy, though. Was it because he called me "lady," or just because he was nice? It has to be a little bit of both.

The next day a friend of mine (who I'd told about the show) said, "Guess what? Peter said he saw a transvestite on campus Friday."

Anyway, sorry to get OT.

[CaptLex]

My head hurts
Mine too . . . pass the rum. :doh:

[Nicole Erin]

It takes so much more than that to insult me. LOL!

So DD you want to be insulted? Alright then, first of all, let me remind you that Yo mamma so fat, she jumped in the air and got stuck! And yo brother so ugly, he had to tie a steak to his neck just so the dog would hang around him!

And if that doesn't rattle your nerves, then check this out - Yo computer so old, it still uses DOS! HA!

Now, don't you just feel violated? Insulted? :heehee:

[kerrianna]

Mine too . . . pass the rum. :doh:

It'll only hurt more in the morning dear.


What I don't get is this thread is titled "I give up!" by DD and yet there she is not giving up. This was a trick! You're a sneaky one, DD. :p

[DemonicDaughter]

And if that doesn't rattle your nerves, then check this out - Yo computer so old, it still uses DOS! HA!

Now, don't you just feel violated? Insulted? :heehee:

We were fine till you brought in my computer! :Angry3: Don't make me make my computer b*tch slap yours! :heehee:


It'll only hurt more in the morning dear.


What I don't get is this thread is titled "I give up!" by DD and yet there she is not giving up. This was a trick! You're a sneaky one, DD. :p

Well... maybe a little. I meant more or less that I was giving up sending people to the forums... but we all know I won't do that either. lol

:love:

[Satrana]

There's no catch-22. Some people just have ridiculous ideas about tolerance. Do you think the world should've been more tolerant of the Nazis? Your tolerance of a person should end as soon as that person starts being an a-hole. If it doesn't, you are no longer tolerant -- you're just weak.

And you gets to decide which ideas are ridiculous? You? Does that mean people who think crossdressing is ridiculous should attack you? Don't you want to be able to express yourself as a CD and if others don't like what you are doing then you would want them to keep their thoughts to themselves. However you argue otherwise that if they don't tell you what they think of you then they are weak.

How is this different from someone saying I am smarter than the average bear? I happen to think that anyone who needs to express superiority over anyone is an insecure person but I let them hang themselves by allowing them to gloat and letting others make up their own minds. The only person who gets hurt is the one gloating since nobody bothers to listen to them anymore.

How can we as a community demanding tolerance of a lifestyle that the majority of society believes is abhorrent or a joke take the moral high ground if we are so ready to be intolerant ourselves. Weakness comes through intolerance of others, tolerance of differences is strength. And comparing such persons to Nazis only demonstrates the true weakness of your argument.

[ErikaLeigh]

Well here is my .02..... This is an internet message board and there will always be someone that will offend you. Personally I think you have to look at the WHOLE picture. This site has helped me and many others to come to grips with who they are. Since finding this site my wife now knows about my femme side, I have been out in public a few dozen times, met some AWESOME friends here both in person and just through the board. SO as a whole this site is GREAT. That being said, I think some of the offenses may come from less mature CDers, not because of their age, but more from being couped up and then either taking or being given their freedom to express their femme side. Lets face it, when most of us were first able to buy the clothes and gurl things we wanted, it was on the "****ty" side of things, but as we mature that seems to tone down, at least for me it did, BIG time. I really admire ALL GGs. I especially admire a woman who can dress in a t-shirt & shorts or jeans with little or no makeup and although just casual wear, they look great. I am at a point in my life where I want to dress more conservative and draw less attention to myself. Living in the phoenix area in the summer nobody wants to get too dolled up anyway, its too flippin hot. I just want to say to ALL genetic gals that come here, WELCOME and please dont let a few, or maybe not so few offensive posts speak for all of us.

Erika

[Margot]

Some of the things written raise my hackles too but I don't comment on them. I don't embrace this forum for confrontation but to interact with others interested in CD'ng or Tg. You mentioned that your freind only lurked on the site. Perhaps more interaction might have pointed her to only those with whom she preferred to communicate.
It must have been somewhat embarassing for you you,hon. Thanks for trying.
:hugs:
Margot

[Dalece]

DD don't give up please I love you to much for you to. I don't know where to begin to say what I feel about this.

[Raquel June]

It must have been somewhat embarassing for you you,hon. Thanks for trying.
:hugs:
Margot

Yeah, that sucks... People think CDs are such weirdos, and I know most of us try to represent the community in a good light. It makes me really depressed when some CDs make all of us look bad. I suppose sometimes I'm the one making us look bad, though. Oh well.

[AmandaM]

This thread offends me! :evilbegon