So.. This is what the GG's on the board must feel like...

[Violetgray]

(This thread is inspired by DemonicDaughter's thread entitled "I Give Up!")

Alot of GG's have expressed on this board that they are upset when reading all of the "Females aren't feminine anymore!" type posts, or "We are more feminine than they are!" type of sentiment. What these GG's say made absolute sense to me, but I could really feel the impact of what they were saying, because since they're not me, their pain was abstract concept. Kind of like when a GG sees a guy get kicked in the gonads. They know it hurts, but they wouldn't really understand. That's how GG's complaints were percieved by me.

UNTIL.....

I remembered knowing this guy in college who was white. But he absolutely LOVED black culture. Very much into hip-hop and reggae, wore alot of rastafarian paraphenalia, and he used alot of slang. Physically he was pale enough to use sour cream as a foundation, but he told everyone he was Native American, I guess because saying he was black would sound absurd.
Anyway, he told me that I acted too white.

Yes, this white person, disdainfully told me, a black person, that I was acting "too white."

And I had no idea I had to do anything to maintain being black. I know that I'm into goth and metal, and renaissance festivals, and roleplaying games, but I was under the impression that I would instantly be black everytime I rolled out of bed in the morning. And here was someone telling me that I wasn't who or what I am supposed to be. It made me feel very insecure.

It was hurful at first, but once I thought about it it made me mad. Who decides what I'm supposed to be? Him? He enjoys emulating black people, that's fine but he's never been pulled over or searched because of his skin color, or instantly terrified an old lady just by heading in her direction, and he's telling me that I'm not doing it right?

The GG's complaints fell on not deaf, but hard-of-hearing ears until
I remembered the hurt, and anger I felt when someone who could never be me thought he could define what it meant to be me, when in reality he was he was projecting his own stereotypical pre-concieved ideas of what a black person should be onto me. And suddenly, to some extent I understood what the GG's are saying.

So just something to think about. This isn't just for women, or people of color, this is for everyone who's ever been told "You're not _______ enough" and remember how that made you feel.

I'm stepping down now, this soapbox can only support me weight so long..

[DemonicDaughter]

Perfect! Just absolutely perfect! You've hit the nail on the head and sank it so far into the wood its not visible anymore. I applaud you!

.... now if only a few others get it.... one can hope, can't they?

[Lisa Rose]

WOW What a wondeful way to put it. :drink: :love: :hugs:

[StephanieF]

Very well expressed Violet. I 'have' been told I'm too _________ and it did bother me. Not only the words but the source they came from.

[renee k]

Perfect! Just absolutely perfect! You've hit the nail on the head and sank it so far into the wood its not visible anymore. I applaud you!

.... now if only a few others get it.... one can hope, can't they?

Violet, I totally agree with DD, my hats off to you for putting this subject into a perspective that everyone should be able to understand. BRAVO!!

Huggs, Renee

[Nicole Erin]

I remembered knowing this guy in college who was white. But he absolutely LOVED black culture. Very much into hip-hop and reggae, wore alot of rastafarian paraphenalia, and he used alot of slang. Physically he was pale enough to use sour cream as a foundation..

Hmm, so you knew a white guy who acted black? I just don't believe it. That is just unheard of. :heehee:

Gyod, next someone will post a story about a Honda civic owner who thinks his car is a street racer just cause it has a fart can exhaust.

[Kimberely416]

Hmm, so you knew a white guy who acted black? I just don't believe it. That is just unheard of. :heehee:

Gyod, next someone will post a story about a Honda civic owner who thinks his car is a street racer just cause it has a fart can exhaust.

Maybe you're trying to be funny but you missed the mark on this one. Her response was perfect. Responsibility is one of my by words. Too often people do things and blame someone else. If you ever decide to go on stage, be prepared to duck cause the tomatoes will be flying, even if they are a little tainted of late

[battybattybats]

Well put Violet!

Being an optimistic goth who smiles I've found a few folk have troubles with me not being the stereotype too, even other goths. Not remotely in the same league but a minor version of the same phenomenon.

I think theres an element of 'youth is wasted on the young' jeolous style thinking too. People unable to see that just cause someone else can be what they really want to be doesn't mean the other person wants to be like that too just because they can.

And just like femininity isnt entirely the same as being female so too is the aspects of the cultures of many black people that this guy adores not the same as being black.

Of course most of my fellow white folk are massively ignorant about the depth and breadth and variety of black cultures. They have no idea about the sophisticated great civilisations of Africa like Mali and Abyssinia, the black pharoahs, the complex traditions and languages and spiritualities not to mention the variety of modern cultures.

And of course CDs pick up sexism as they grow up just like everyone else does. Just like that guys racism and all the rest.

[Di]

Well put Violet!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[KatrinaAshley]

When I read both of these topics and saw the ruckus they caused I was surprised that they offended some of you. I got a different impression from the stories. I guess this is why I stayed quiet. What I saw wasn't an insult, it could have been more of a jealous observation. When these people said 'not feminine enough' or 'too white', maybe it was their way of asking 'how can you not enjoy what you have naturally?'. They work hard to achieve a certain style and then find those they attempt to emulate don't enjoy it the same way. What they don't understand is these people can and have enjoyed their style but also have days when they prefer to act or dress casual. No different than how our male sides aren't always in suits and ties, but shorts and sandals.

It's somewhat confusing and I hope I made some sense. My whole point being that words don't mean the same thing to everyone else. Seemingly innocent comments, while sometimes out of place, inadvertently step on other's feelings. So sit back, relax and enjoy the ride like I do.

[DemonicDaughter]

When I read both of these topics and saw the ruckus they caused I was surprised that they offended some of you. I got a different impression from the stories. I guess this is why I stayed quiet. What I saw wasn't an insult, it could have been more of a jealous observation. When these people said 'not feminine enough' or 'too white', maybe it was their way of asking 'how can you not enjoy what you have naturally?'. They work hard to achieve a certain style and then find those they attempt to emulate don't enjoy it the same way. What they don't understand is these people can and have enjoyed their style but also have days when they prefer to act or dress casual. No different than how our male sides aren't always in suits and ties, but shorts and sandals.

It's somewhat confusing and I hope I made some sense. My whole point being that words don't mean the same thing to everyone else. Seemingly innocent comments, while sometimes out of place, inadvertently step on other's feelings. So sit back, relax and enjoy the ride like I do.

Because you can't be less of a woman when you were born one. You can either have an operation or you remain a woman. You cannot be less black than you were born without its own ordeal. We are genetically made the people we are, so to hear someone tell you that you are not [whatever] enough when that is what you were born as, is like telling corn, its not corn enough.

Just because someone else feels they appear, act or dress more feminine should never imply someone else is less so or less a woman. Just like if someone appears, acts or dresses in accordance to another culture shouldn't imply anyone else is less of that culture.

And I don't think that making statements that belittle another person by describing them as "grizzly", "hideous" or "nothing attractive" would be considered "seemingly innocent comments" by anyone's standards.

[MJ]

after reading both posts i truly hope everyone here will think twice before posting . lets not hurt anyone by what we say .. respect and love for everyone .
yes i live in the real world full time and it's bad enough i have to deal with the hurtful thing people say and do ..without having to see it here .
this is my home from home and my safe place , and would hope that everyone here can be respectful .. it don't take a rocket scientist to see i am different , i don't pass and don't care i just want to be me . remember love and respect for everyone ..

[KatrinaAshley]

Because you can't be less of a woman when you were born one. You can either have an operation or you remain a woman. You cannot be less black than you were born without its own ordeal. We are genetically made the people we are, so to hear someone tell you that you are not [whatever] enough when that is what you were born as, is like telling corn, its not corn enough.

Just because someone else feels they appear, act or dress more feminine should never imply someone else is less so or less a woman. Just like if someone appears, acts or dresses in accordance to another culture shouldn't imply anyone else is less of that culture.


This much is obvious to all of us, which is what makes me think the comments could have been related to style in a slang way and not physical/cultural, meaning just a misunderstanding. I have no way to know if it was meant maliciously, in which case you'd be correct. The world likes to be mean at times.


And I don't think that making statements that belittle another person by describing them as "grizzly", "hideous" or "nothing attractive" would be considered "seemingly innocent comments" by anyone's standards.

Those choice words, no. If this is what you have seen then I can understand where you're coming from. I only visit occasionally, perhaps I missed some of the more critical topics.

[TGMarla]

I guess I'm not man enough. I've got this crazy behavioral thing about running around the house in high heels and dresses.

I think it's amusing that people so often link and confuse physical traits and behavioral traits as if one necessarily had something to do with the other.

[bah-bah-bobbie]

I guess I'm not man enough. I've got this crazy behavioral thing about running around the house in high heels and dresses.

I think it's amusing that people so often link and confuse physical traits and behavioral traits as if one necessarily had something to do with the other.

If I see someone with long hair, arm full of tattoos wearing a shirt depicting Megadeth, I'm not going to assume he listens to Bach or Dixie Chicks. People usually advertise who they are by what they wear. Stoners, goth, rasta's etc. Even people with respectable carreers when they are off duty have an unnatural cleanlieness and crispness to their attire. There are always exceptions but they are far too few in between to worry about. Personally, I know many people with long hair and an arm full of tattoos that listens to heavy metal music. I am one of them. But many are dissapointed when they learn I don't play guitar or ride a motorcycle. I'm not "metal" enough for most of them. I'm used to it by now. In high school I was too tame for the stoner crowd but too wild for the contemporaries. Despite my interest and knowledge I was never "wrench" enough for the other motor heads. I know every line from every Star Wars movie made but can't relate to other science fiction buffs. I love welding and wood working, but I don't feel right in their clubs. And I can prommise everyone on this board that I am not crossdresser enough, hope noone minds . Eventually I figured I am not enough of anything for anybody but I am plenty of me. A square peg in a round world may not fit anywhere, but it cant get trapped either.

[Veronica 1]

Well, what are we trying to say here, we are all individuals and we all have our own aspects and outlooks. It is not up to others to tell us how to live our lives as it is not up to us to tell others how to live theirs. We all ask for acceptance but can we also give acceptance? It is a tit for tat conception that if we want to be who we are, we must also allow other to be who they are. I am not a GG and I have no idea what it entails to be one but I try to do my best to emulate one within my limited knowledge. I do not come close to their perfection and I really never will but I have fun doing the best that I can. I am not a manly man but I do my best to fit into that world. I have to find a balance that will allow me to be a man and a woman at the same time and this, to me, means that if I cannot allow others to live their life as they prefer how can I expect others to allow me the same courtesy.

[waspookie6]

Violetgray, I appreciate you sharing a part of your life that had to have been (and may still is) very hurtful. It takes a lot of guts to dig down that deep yet surface with such honesty.

Thank You

[deja true]

... Eventually I figured I am not enough of anything for anybody but I am plenty of me. A square peg in a round world may not fit anywhere, but it cant get trapped either.

Bobbie! This is brilliant!

It's an analolgy that almost all of us can embrace...

Now if we can only shave down some of those really sharp edges that occasionally scratch someone else!

(A wonderful introduction, too, by the way...Welcome!)

respect & love,

deja

[Angie G]

Hay Violet you go girl great post:thumbsup::hugs:
Angie

[erickka]

Violet, You and DD have provoked some serious thought here. I hope that everyone can learn to be a little more considerate of each other. If that were true with everyone in this world, I think we'd all get along a whole lot better. My grandma once told me that if you don't have something kind or good to say, then keep quiet. I still try to keep not so nice opinions to myself, since I try to live by the "harm none" credo.

[DemonicDaughter]

Those choice words, no. If this is what you have seen then I can understand where you're coming from. I only visit occasionally, perhaps I missed some of the more critical topics.

I quoted the exact posts, unfortunately. Read my other posts and you'd soon find I'm very compassionate and always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt. So you know when I complain... its a doozie! lol


If I see someone with long hair, arm full of tattoos wearing a shirt depicting Megadeth, I'm not going to assume he listens to Bach or Dixie Chicks.

Well you should! LOL! I am tattooed, pierced, black hair, gothic clothes, listen to metal AND I have a vast collection of classical and country music. :D :heehee:


There are always exceptions but they are far too few in between to worry about.

I know... but isn't it just a joy in life to find one? :daydreaming:


... Eventually I figured I am not enough of anything for anybody but I am plenty of me. A square peg in a round world may not fit anywhere, but it cant get trapped either.

I think that is a perfect response! Its nice to see that self acceptance is still practiced. :) Kudos to you!

[Tamara Croft]

I applaud you Violet, you know EXACTLY how we feel, because you've had the same thing done to you. I think unless you've been made to feel this way, you won't understand, so hopefully both these threads will educate you enough to know, we're not going to put up with listening to 'you're not feminine enough' anymore... it's not nice ya know :(

[Bev06 GG]

Well Violetgray you have excelled. That is one heck of a classic and hit the nail quite squarly on the head. So the next time any CD says to me I'm not dressed like a GG I'm gonna tell em to go do a Violetgray.
Love ya:love:

[AmandaM]

Your white friend was drawn toward blackness. Like CDers are drawn toward the feminine. They both perceive that their version of what they seek is the "ideal" or even the "norm". When you violated that, the fantasy came crashing down. Hence, their defensive reaction. They try to protect their fantasy cause otherwise, they could end up being the fraud. This is the height of arrogance. OK, everyone wake up now!

[DemonicDaughter]

Your white friend was drawn toward blackness. Like CDers are drawn toward the feminine. They both perceive that their version of what they seek is the "ideal" or even the "norm". When you violated that, the fantasy came crashing down. Hence, their defensive reaction. They try to protect their fantasy cause otherwise, they could end up being the fraud. This is the height of arrogance. OK, everyone wake up now!

But why should others be subjected to another's fantasy? I'd love my own version of the world to exist but I don't publicly bash those that shatter the delusion. CDers aren't going with the "norm" either and here we are attempting to support them then someone decides we don't play into their fantasy enough. How mean is that?

[Emily Anderson]

I suggest we just get a bit more "aggressive" with people who take down others for the sake of it.

Can't really say I've seen much of it to tell you the truth... But I'll certainly be glad to nuke anyone who says anything intented to provoke anger.

[putz0611]

You know, I have to say that there are a lot of times where I get the feeling that we will never be feminine enough. Being a GG, I don't feel as I should live up to someone else's perception of what being a woman is. Just like no one should try and live up to anyone else's perception of race, sexuality or anything else for that matter. After all two people will never perceive everything the same, there will always be differences.

I commend DD for sticking up for the GGs.:cheer:
Also for Violetgray for seeing the light.:cheer:

[Stephanie Michelle]

As a newer member I have not posted much. I read (listen) more that write (talk). Having said that I am not basing this post on any particular comment or reply. I am sure that some of the posts are meant to demean or discriminate an individual or group of people. Other times the person(s) reading thinks
the post or comment is an attack against them. Everyone does not react the same way to the same comment. If I read a post, it may seem fine to me but might offend someone else. If that is the way they feel I cannot say they are wrong. I might not agree with them but I don't slam them either.

We joined this community to share our common interests, way of life, SO, to learn, to teach, to consul. There is enough misunderstanding against us that we don't need to attach each other. We need to be unite show the unbelievers that we are just like them (but like do dress better).

[Lara Smith]

I don't profess to be a student of the Bible. But I do recall, that of all the things most vile about human beings, it is what comes out of their mouths!

[TSchapes]

Perfect! Just absolutely perfect! You've hit the nail on the head and sank it so far into the wood its not visible anymore. I applaud you!

.... now if only a few others get it.... one can hope, can't they?


I second that. And I hope others read these types of posts!

[Patti Girl]

I think DD has stirred up a hornet's nest and enjoys being disruptive. She started one thread that had me ready to entirely unsub from the board (which I've found very valuable) and now she's bringing it here.

Please note, this board is FOR MTF crossdressers. While GG comments are often welcome when it comes to dealing with SO problems, this board isn't really for them and if they find it not to their liking, perhaps they are in the wrong place. There is another subboard for family members, etc.

Of course, words can mean different things to different people and perhaps the affronted GG's don't really understand what's being said. How can they, they are not in our shoes?

Here are some comments I made in another thread.


You bring up a good point, what do we mean by "girly". Yes, many of us dress up to a more feminine extreme than do many gg's. Does that make us more "girly"? Well it depends on the definition one is using.

There is another thread going on where some of the gg's are higly insulted that a frequent comment on the board here is that we are more feminine than they are. It all depends on what particulars one is considering. My wife very rarely wears skirts or dresses or makeup or jewelry. I do every day. In some ways that makes me more feminine than she is, but when you get down to the real essentials, of course we cannot compete for feminity with them. She's got real boobs and other real female parts and other essentials, I don't and never will.

If "being feminine" is graded by the effort one puts in, then we might be more girly. But if it is graded by reality, we won't match up.


As for the suggestion that we be careful in everything that we post so that we don't hurt anyone's feelings, well this whole board is controversial to some and every post has the potential to bother someone. If we really want to be sure to avoid hurting anyone, then we should just close the board. On the other hand, maybe the board should be limited to it's intended audience, MTF crossdressers.

Patti

[Tamara Croft]

I think DD has stirred up a hornet's nest and enjoys being disruptive. She started one thread that had me ready to entirely unsub from the board (which I've found very valuable) and now she's bringing it here.Wow, have you ever read any of DD's other posts, you'll find you are WRONG on so many levels and I don't appreciate this troll like post you have posted.


Please note, this board is FOR MTF crossdressers. While GG comments are often welcome when it comes to dealing with SO problems, this board isn't really for them and if they find it not to their liking, perhaps they are in the wrong place. There is another subboard for family members, etc.Excuse me? since when is this section only for MTF members? This section is for EVERYONE to post in and as DD's question was directed at the MTF population, she had every right to post it in this section. I suggest you however read the forum rules and see who can post where. None of the open forums are limited to anyone, everyone can post in them and you need to get your facts straight.


As for the suggestion that we be careful in everything that we post so that we don't hurt anyone's feelings, well this whole board is controversial to some and every post has the potential to bother someone. If we really want to be sure to avoid hurting anyone, then we should just close the board. On the other hand, maybe the board should be limited to it's intended audience, MTF crossdressers.You wouldn't know what hurt feelings were if it smacked you in the face, this is typical trolling, posted to cause an uproar on the forum. And let me remind you what this forum was originally set up for shall I?


*** The #1 Community for Crossdressers, their Family and Friends ***

Note this says crossdressers, NOT MTF crossdressers and not it says Family and Friends. As an administrator and GG on this board, I find your post a disgrace to this board and I'm ashamed that you are part of this community. Your tolerance for other members shows greatly, you come across as 'if you're not a mtf cd, then get off our forum'... I'm going to shut up now before I get really mad and say something I might just regret.


Admin Note: -

These are the kind of posts that usually get pulled by the staff, but because I want other members to see it, I'm going to leave it up, and show how horrible some members can be.

[DemonicDaughter]

I think DD has stirred up a hornet's nest and enjoys being disruptive. She started one thread that had me ready to entirely unsub from the board (which I've found very valuable) and now she's bringing it here....

Yeah... okay, the opening post states this thread was inspired by mine. So I didn't bring anything here.

You know, my first grade teacher said the same thing about me being disruptive. Guess I never grew up, and I'm damn proud of that fact. So thanks :D

And you're right again with this being the MTF section of the boards even though you also have a GM section in which, if you really didn't want to read a GGs comments, you can limit yourself to. Just as you purpose we limit ourselves out of this section. Well except to comment on "SO problems". But then why? I mean why bother having any GGs on here at all? Or maybe you don't want any of us here to begin with.

Or you just don't want me here. *sigh* You wouldn't be the first and you definitely won't be the last.

And my thread, its not about being PC, non-controversial or even commenting about GGs, its about how things are seen from those outside this community and possibly arming those people looking for accepting SOs with a little bit more knowledge.

So you're right again. Words can often mean very different things to different people.

[Beth-Lock]

Seems that there are three issues here: Take the expression of, 'I am more feminine than you.' So point number one, is that this a new take on the, 'I am holier than thou,' feeling, an ancient human failing. I think, among the seven deadly sins, this one is the sin of pride. I guess we should in theory never consider ourselves better than anyone else, in any really important way, but of course we do, and behind it is the matter of values, promoting and standing up for ones you believe in.

What do we expect to achieve by promoting and pushing ahead our values, over others? We apparently want our group or groups, from the CD forum group, right up to the wider society and on to the whole world, to change their views more in conformity with our values. We do this by trying to change the culture of the group, trying to improve it or fix it, (at least we think that is what it needs).

Then there is the thing about culture and group membership. You may be born into a group, but not buy into the culture normally associated with that group.
Others in the group will likely get on your case about this. If you are born into a tough neighborhood, people will think that is you and what you are about and you will get a lot of flack about being too chicken to steal, etc., if you want to be honest.

Ditto with being born black or a woman or a man. Does birth trump any other measure of group membership? It seems that our problem is that we do not want to conform to the culture of our group, or at least not completely. Who decides what ought to be the culture of our group? Does our birth situation, quite real admittedly, mean that we should accept that others to not want to cut us any slack? In the extreme case, we consider that the group others want us to conform to, is not really ours, but the result of a mere accident of birth. We were born into another group, with another culture, one apparently not of our choosing, are not seen as being legitimate members of the culture of the other group we aspire to.

It seems to be a part of the failings of life in the material world that we all too often end up in our material circumstances, in a reality that does not fit with what we really feel in our spirit. There is a song that goes 'in heaven, the blind will see,' and I have known a blind man who sings it with much feeling, and faith. Is it unrealistic to want to make our life on this earth as close to what we would like to imagine it could be in heaven? A lot of our talk is oriented to imposing this idea of what we think is an ideal or heavenly world, on our poor, miserable little material world down here. Can we be blamed for this?

[Brianna1]

I qoute from Dictionary.com: Feminine is defined as:-
1. pertaining to a woman or girl: feminine beauty; feminine dress.
2. having qualities traditionally ascribed to women, as sensitivity or gentleness.

Ok, the way I see it and why I have quoted the dictionary is that by definition ANYTHING to do with a woman is to be considered feminine...so if all women decide to wear scuba gear or medieaval battledress instead of skirts, dresses and heels then guess what? it would be the new feminine!! So if they suddenly decide to wear what men 'traditionally' (as in trousers and workboots) wear or all women decide to be FtM then guys, it looks like we just lost our gender!! Whatcha gonna do then eh? The GGs make the rules on femininity whether we like it or not.
So all those who think they are more feminine than GG's or FAB (great set of letters...describes you well) maybe you should get off their case 'cos if you want to be like 'em then you need to do what they do. Reckon the sales of jeans should shoot up now huh?:lol:
I know there are a lot of members like me who come to this forum to learn from the ideas and thoughts of others...and the ones who are worth listening to shine out like a beacon. If it wasn't for level headed people like DD and Tamara and all those others I'd like to mention but don't have the room, then this forum would be full of s*** Exactly the same things happen in all public forums, or at least the ones I've heard people talk about.

And Patti, they are here to make us think and advance, not to stir us all up.

I generally tend to not read the trivial stuff and also miss some of the controversial posts so I haven't seen a lot of the things we are talking about. I don't doubt for a moment the number of posts that are removed before we see them, I just thank the administrators for reading and vetting those things. Where do you get the time from? I couldn't/wouldn't and am happy to experience your dedication. I don't generally tend to consider admonishing members as I thought we weren't to do that but, if it's going to help keep the quality up then I'll have to consider doing it...but remember there is always going to be a constructive way of telling a person to pull their head in...try that way first!

[Beth-Lock]

You wouldn't know what hurt feelings were if it smacked you in the face,...

[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]

Obviously you were wrong.

[Tamara Croft]

Obviously you were wrong.Wrong about what? This could mean anything, you should elaborate what exactly you're talking about.

<edit> I guess this didn't warrant an answer then :rolleyes:

[Beth-Lock]

I qoute from Dictionary.com: Feminine is defined as:-
1. pertaining to a woman or girl: feminine beauty; feminine dress.
2. having qualities traditionally ascribed to women, as sensitivity or gentleness.

.... why I have quoted the dictionary is that by definition ANYTHING to do with a woman is to be considered feminine...so if all women decide to wear scuba gear or medieval battledress instead of skirts, dresses and heels then guess what? it would be the new feminine!!
... The GGs make the rules on femininity whether we like it or not.

But dictionary quotes have an historical context: Around the start of Queen Victoria's reign, there was a fork in the road, and the modern idea of what we generally consider feminine, meaning traditional, including 1950's, feminine, was born, Before that, men wore hose, etc., and in some ways there was less difference between what men wore and women, at least those that were not rich.
What caused it to change? Technology made possible cheaper feminine clothes, and the preachers, nearly all men, decided that it was time to revisit the parts of the bible that seemed to suggest the sexes should dress quite differently. Some countries, (France for example), even had laws that a woman could not wear "men's clothes" meaning pants. The laws were put on the books by men of course. Now in our democratic society in which women have had the vote for almost a hundred years, and feedom of personal choice is honoured, we are saying that it has always been the case that such things as what is feminine, could be decided by those affected most, including in this case, some would say, the group, women alone. That is not strictly accurate it seems, not if you go back to hsitory.
Now we seem to have had another fork in the road of dressing conventions. There may indeed be a generation divide, though I think there is an infinite lag time in this. Those growing up when women dressed in skirts and dresses, when male school principals demanded young women not wear pants to school, tend to see femininity as meaning dressing and acting like young women did in those days. (Observation: Few want to dress like grannies did in those days.) Those growing up and noticing women as they dressed, around 1970+, say those born around 1955-1960, would tend to include the wearing of pants, particularly, feminine pants with other more traditional feminine signals, (blue eye shadow and high heels were in, to wear with designer jeans then), by women, as adequately even quite feminine.
But it does have an advantage. We, CD's can wear all girl's clothes and if they are pants and such like, no one ever notices.

[GypsyKaren]

Please note, this board is FOR MTF crossdressers. While GG comments are often welcome when it comes to dealing with SO problems, this board isn't really for them and if they find it not to their liking, perhaps they are in the wrong place. There is another subboard for family members, etc.

Thank you for volunteering to be the thread police, but you don't decide or dictate anything about who posts where, who is welcome here or anywhere on this forum, or anything about the operation of this forum, we do, and don't you ever forget that...catch my drift?

Karen Starlene :star:

[MJ]

please forgive me but we all have feelings . have you ever been out in the real world has anyone spit on you on a public bus because your dressed as a woman have you been on a bus full of school kids pointing at you . have you ever had guys threaten your very life if you walk down there street because your different .. have you ever had co workers up in arms because they feel i can't use the womans washroom until i get my surgery have you ever been left out of an event "girls only " because your different .. how about names calling that i could not repeat here .

The point is we all have feelings i can't understand how some would love to have a gg for a friend but put them down at the same time !!!

next time you dress try feeling and acting like a gg then you may understand
the problem is there are some people here that always will behave like MEN !!!! i mean no offence

[AmandaM]

Can't we all just get along.

:mooning:

[Chloe Renee]

I wouldn't normally jump into a thread Hijack but it seems proper. Patti,I would rather hear the opinion of supportive, or concerned GG any day. Rather than an opinion of self-important CD. There are too many Fragile egos on this type of board.
If you have taken the time to read many of the posts of the GG's you will see that they are not trying to destroy your world but help guide you into aspects of their world. You can always choose to ignore there opinion, or politely disagree. But don't be a troll it does nothing but fan flames that spiral further off topic.

Violet, your situation, I imagine was difficult. And I can see how that relates well to what DD and other GG's have said. :hugs:
I hope both of these threads become well read and sink into those who need read them. Rather than be skipped over on the way to yet another 20 panty threads.

[Sandra]

Please note, this board is FOR MTF crossdressers. While GG comments are often welcome when it comes to dealing with SO problems, this board isn't really for them and if they find it not to their liking, perhaps they are in the wrong place. There is another subboard for family members, etc.

Oh ffs go read the banner at the top of the page :rolleyes:

We have as much right here as you have.



Of course, words can mean different things to different people and perhaps the affronted GG's don't really understand what's being said. How can they, they are not in our shoes?


Maybe we don't always understand everything but neither do a lot of cders, but we understand when we're being pulled to pieces.

Violet

Very well put :hugs:

[Fab Karen]

I think DD has stirred up a hornet's nest and enjoys being disruptive. She started one thread that had me ready to entirely unsub from the board (which I've found very valuable) and now she's bringing it here.

Please note, this board is FOR MTF crossdressers. While GG comments are often welcome when it comes to dealing with SO problems, this board isn't really for them and if they find it not to their liking, perhaps they are in the wrong place. There is another subboard for family members, etc.
On the other hand, maybe the board should be limited to it's intended audience, MTF crossdressers.

Patti
She didn't stir anything up, she pointed out how some people here are talking trash about GG's, acting like they are superior. It's an important discussion.
This site is NOT only for mtf CD's. Non-CD friends & family & other TG people are very welcome & appreciated. If you're not mature enough to handle that it isn't, you can go elsewhere.

[AmandaM]

She didn't stir anything up, she pointed out how some people here are talking trash about GG's, acting like they are superior. It's an important discussion.
This site is NOT only for mtf CD's. Non-CD friends & family & other TG people are very welcome & appreciated. If you're not mature enough to handle that it isn't, you can go elsewhere.

I second that motion!

[Audrey34]

I don't understand it. Why is there so much hostility by some members being directed towards GG's? GG's have a right to be here just as much as we cd's do. Without the guidance and advice of some very special GG friends I would never have been able to come as far as I have in my personal journey as a cd. I just want to say that the advice and compliments I've gotten from the moderators and other GG's here are greatly appreciated by me.
-Audrey

[victoriamwilliams1]

Stereotypes are very wrong and the same applies to us tall girls, If I had $100 for every time I was asked if I played basketball I would have no worries! For me when I dress I tend to emulate the women who where around me while growing up, the style you see me dressed is what I saw in my family and is a product of my direct environment of that time. The comments about GG's is made by many of us which either on the forums or offline,(I know I have made the comments in both) can be taken offensive and it is true for any human that you are told your not _____ by anyone you will get upset or try to prove the person wrong!

I know people who were told while growing up "your not going to be nothing" and you know only a few listen to that and those who did today are very successful. I think on the forums it is great to have the GG perspective as it helps us to understand them and them to understand us.

Now about my sidebar, my SO and myself both have said things about how all people are dressing today that if I posted the comments I would be kicked out! We both have said what the stores carry for women today is not for all women even when it says plus size!

Thats my little soap box comment:2c:

[DemonicDaughter]

...Now about my sidebar, my SO and myself both have said things about how all people are dressing today that if I posted the comments I would be kicked out! We both have said what the stores carry for women today is not for all women even when it says plus size!

Thats my little soap box comment:2c:

You know, we all say things along those lines. The difference is, we show restraint by not walking up to the person and saying it to their face nor shouting it in a crowded mall for all to hear. When the comments are posted on a forums like this, its like shouting at the top of your lungs in a mall that "all you women look like crap!" Its not so much that we take it personally and think someone is talking directly to us, but it does resonate that we aren't "good enough" in some way. Its annoying because it stereotypes us and sounds like someone is trying to force us into their ideals of what a woman should be. I may not like how someone dresses, but there's no need for me to publicly state so, least of all when I don't exactly dress to anyone else's standards (being goth and all).

So thanks. Honestly is much much more appreciated. :love:

[Sheila]

As for the suggestion that we be careful in everything that we post so that we don't hurt anyone's feelings, well this whole board is controversial to some and every post has the potential to bother someone. If we really want to be sure to avoid hurting anyone, then we should just close the board. On the other hand, maybe the board should be limited to it's intended audience, MTF crossdressers.

Patti

l*** Wecome to Crossdressers.Com ***
*** The #1 Community for Crossdressers, their Family and Friends ***

Crossdressers.Com was created in February 2004 by the owner ‘Admin’ and his Tech Team.
We are a dedicated forum for the transgendered, their family and friends.

which bit did you not understand at the top of the boards:Angry3::Angry3: