Cruelty

[Beth-Lock]

There seems to be a lot of cruelty out there, directed towards CD's. One has only to walk around dressed up, (CD'ing), to see that even women, who seem better at spotting a man in a skirt, use that ability to make a bit of a scene, at least by displaying a rude smirk, and so ridicule the CD'er. Men, though more violent on the street, especially if low class, do not seem to take it as such a comical matter, or even an insult, at least if they do not have a chip on their shoulder, as most people relatively confortable in their lives, do not.
If one is at all sensitive, one can easily take it to heart and indeed, be destroyed by it, or at least have a part of one's soul or spirit destroyed. It is so hurtful to see a GG take it up as a personal issue, between you and them. After all, imitation is the sincereest form of flattery. But they do not seem to seem it at all that way.
I guess how you get past this sort of thing is a personal matter, and not something another can likely help with.
These days though, I simply feel like giving up.
How common is this?

[Holly]

...How common is this?Not common at all! Where in the heck have you been hanging around? Is this something that you have personnaly experienced? Is it at all possible that your presentation could be improved?

[Tamara Croft]

I think that happens all over the world.. and not just at CD's, but anyone.. Some GG's tend to have that built in bitch gene... look at you funny, point and laugh... giving you a complex, making you feel bad about yourself etc... teenagers imho are the most cruelest creatures... they can spot a CD from a mile away.. and some of the things I've heard coming out their mouths, if I was their mother, they would have got soap in it :eek:

[Nicole Erin]

Men are probably more likely to disapprove but less likely to say anything because they don't even want to acknowledge it or think about it.

Women as a sex are more secure about their femininity than men about their masculinity.

However, my opinion is that women would be a bit more likely to accept a CD than a man would.

I guess it evens out. Bascially, one will find out faster if a woman approves or not than if a man does.

Plenty of women have asked me if I wear women's things, but not too many guys, unless it is one of our admirers.

[Beth-Lock]

Not common at all! Where in the heck have you been hanging around? Is this something that you have personnaly experienced? Is it at all possible that your presentation could be improved?

I think I have already given up, progressively and for some time now. Now I stay by myself, and dress only at home.

[sandra-leigh]

As best I can recall at the moment, I haven't ever had a rude comment from a woman. I have had a stiff stare from one woman (whom I had seen around a few times and have never seen smile). I have had a couple of younger women (early 20's??) laugh audibly at me after I had passed (hint: when you are in guy mode, high heels on asphalt makes a lot of attention-getting noise!) I don't recall personally ever having any trouble with teenagers.

I have never observed any hint that a woman has taken my cross-dressing as an insult (though who knows what was going through the mind of the stare-maestra!)

The closest I am getting is that my seamstress, although happy to dart my blouses, resize my dresses, and so on, gave me a little headshake of disapproval the other day when I donned on my just-adjusted long denim dress, with forms, and wore that out of the store in guy mode. So for her, it's not about the fact that I wear women's clothes: it's about my wearing them publicly blatantly as a guy (I guess.)

[Jordan-2004]

GG's constantly look at other women (CD's included) and compare bodies. Some GG's are more secure with their bodies than others. Their level of security makes a difference in how they react toward other women. If they feel threatened or down on themselves about a particular body part, they become a bigger critic toward other women to try and boost their own ego. Perhaps you have great legs or a nice figure? I'm guessing you came across some women who saw you as someone who had nicer features than they had and you became a threat to them - and subjected to their criticism or judgement. In dealing with GG's you have to take their reaction in stride and carry on.

Don't give up! :D

[Lara Smith]

I think there is a large contingent of women who feel, "Dammnit, this is mine, you have everything else and you can't have this too!" Especially if you actually look good and even remotely feminine dressed. And in a way you can't blame them. They just don't see it as flattery. More like theft.

Unfortunately, (maybe with good reason) there are an awful lot of very unhappy females in this world. Look around when you are out and about. There aren't many who are smiling, and many of them just seem seriously angry and pissed off. Give a good look.

[DanaR]

I'm not sure where you were at when you went out, but you could have been in the wrong place. I've always believed if you want to blend, you have to wear what others are wearing. In other words, look around and see what the GG's are wearing. One of our biggest faults, is over dressing.

I've been read while walking down the street, but the person that read me also returned my smile.

[Kris]

GG's constantly look at other women (CD's included) and compare bodies. Some GG's are more secure with their bodies than others. Their level of security makes a difference in how they react toward other women. If they feel threatened or down on themselves about a particular body part, they become a bigger critic toward other women to try and boost their own ego.


OMG! You have got to be kidding, right? I know that there are some insecure women on this earth and some have the comparison gene, but come on....... as much as a crossdresser wants to be a woman, you are a cross dresser. PERIOD. Things are way different if you are transgendered but I don't know ANY women who feel "threatened" by a cross dresser. I have seen crossdressers who make FOOLS of themselves and when they get funny looks, they say, "Oh they are jealous of me!"

I so don't think so. And for that matter, I am a woman who loves other women. I have no problem telling another woman they are beautiful, or that she has a great body, and no I am far from gay. I just think that it's high time that women lost the old societal idea that we "should" all be fighting. If we banded together............ we could rule the world. :tongueout



I think there is a large contingent of women who feel, "Dammnit, this is mine, you have everything else and you can't have this too!" Especially if you actually look good and even remotely feminine dressed. And in a way you can't blame them. They just don't see it as flattery. More like theft.

Unfortunately, (maybe with good reason) there are an awful lot of very unhappy females in this world. Look around when you are out and about. There aren't many who are smiling, and many of them just seem seriously angry and pissed off. Give a good look.

Where do you people get these ideas from? Are you just making it up as you go along? Females feel that you are "stealing our womanhood?" WTF does that mean?

There are an awful lot of men who are angry unhappy males, I would even say crossdressers. Men don't smile - women smile more than men do - in a huge way..... Men seem to be angry and pissed off. Men have testosterone poisoning and even compete with each other over stupid things like PASSING GAS! Then of course there are those men with "little mans syndrome!"

See gurls, this is EXACTLY why GG's don't like to come here....... you even MAKE STUFF UP ABOUT US! How can a GG want to come here? Even if she is supportive of TG/CD'ers -- these kind of comments just make me sick.

Kris

[kay_jessica]

Not common at all! Where in the heck have you been hanging around? Is this something that you have personnaly experienced? Is it at all possible that your presentation could be improved?

I must agree with Holly, I have very rarely encounter any adverse comment of reaction. In fact, in all the time (which is considerable) I think I have notice just 2 adverse comments. That is in my estimation a very tiny incidence rate given that I have been out several thousand times, of which a good 50% - 60% of those were in day light and for extended periods.

So if you do attract adverse comment or reaction it may be that your presentation is inappropriate. If you don't blend but stand out because of what you are wearing then you will be noticed. Once noticed and if you are too outrageously dressed (ie too tarty or wrong clothes/age combination) then you are likely to draw ridicule.

[JaytoJillian]

Interesting topic. Fortunately, for me, I have rarely been harassed, and when I have, GGs were never the source. My encounters with GGs have, I must say, been very interesting. All have been friendly, though. Usually, I get, "wow, you are very tall!" LoL. I've even been pursued by a lesbian or two while out clubbing. Talk about having the tables turned on you. But nothing compares with being engaged in sincere conversation by a GG who is truly interested in this crazy hobby of mine.

Regarding teens, I vividly recall being followed around a grocery store by a carload of teen boys who just happened to arrive at the same time that I did. (I may have told some of you this story before) It was close to Halloween, so the "excuse" I had rehearsed was that I was going to a costume party. I grew more and more nervous as three of them followed me from aisle to aisle, as it was after midnight. Finally after getting some cash from the store's ATM, I turned to confront them. In the butchest voice I could summon, I said something like, "Dude, I'm going to a costume party, allright?!"

I'm pretty sure I heard three jaws hitting the floor. The next thing I heard was, "It's a dude!" LoL, these poor, ignorant souls had no idea until I outed myself, LoL. They subsequently followed me to the parking lot, and I thought, OMG, this is where I make the news papers or the police blotter trying to fend of a group of confused teen boys with raging hormones. Surprisingly, they went to their car without much of a ruckus, but one of them called out, "so, where is that party you're going to?" I just jokingly replied that it probably wasn't their type of scene, thanked my lucky stars and drove away breathing a heavy sigh of relief.

I was heckled by a carload of men one night while leaving a club, but they just yelled something vile and sped away before I really even had a chance to look up. I guess I've been somewhat fortunate, but I do choose carefully when deciding WHERE to go en femme.


Cheers,



Jill

[Kate Simmons]

Personally, I don't see that much in a "bashing" sense when people "make" me. What I do see most often is interest and curiosity. This is the opportunity to prove we are just people and not a bunch of "freaks". If people are genuinely interested I will explain my feelings on the matter. If not, I go about my business, which is to enjoy being myself and having fun and they generally go about theirs. Either way, I try to make the experience of interaction a positive one.:)

[Beth-Lock]

I think there is a large contingent of women who feel, "Dammnit, this is mine, you have everything else and you can't have this too!" Especially if you actually look good and even remotely feminine dressed. And in a way you can't blame them. They just don't see it as flattery. More like theft..
I think there is an element of truth in that, Lara. After all, women have been known in the past to bully and even beat up a girl who does not belong to the club by acting differently, mainly what they consider trashily. It as if women are tuned to defending their group and being guardians of true femininity and good behavior. CD's are perhaps viewed as simply gate crashers at the party.
I am trying to understand, not judge, except to try and find a way to be treated better.
Beyond that, is the issue of whether we can pass or at least blend in. One approach is of course, why should we have to? There was a thread here recently, under the tag, 'reality check.' that took the view that practically none of us could really pass. I must say I took that to heart at the time.
However, when I started this thread I was quite down, but now am feeling more optimistic this morning. I guess it is just time to pick myself up and go on.
Thanks for those who took the time to help me.
Any more ideas?

[DemonicDaughter]

I think there is an element of truth in that, Lara. ...

Beth,

Sorry you've had any bad run ins with GGs. I have to agree with Holly in that I've rarely seen that myself but it has been known to happen. But as for it happening because its cders stepping into gg "territory"... ummm... no.

Here's why:

If a woman sees another good looking woman, we don't hate her for it. We either wished we looked just as good or we are happy for her. We don't see men dressed as women as a threat to our womanhood because they aren't becoming women. We don't even see ts or tg as a threat because we mostly accept them as a woman born in the wrong body.

Does everyone understand and accept? No. But on the whole, women don't think like that. "Competition" for women is when someone else compares us. To have a mate compare us to an ex. A parent compare us to another sibling. A boss compare us to a co-worker. Which is true for men as well.

You don't see a good looking GG and hate her do you? No. You either wished you looked as good or you feel happy for her. It would only be if someone leaned over and said, "You look NOTHING like her!" that you would get upset.

[CaptLex]

women have been known in the past to bully and even beat up a girl who does not belong to the club by acting differently, mainly what they consider trashily. It as if women are tuned to defending their group and being guardians of true femininity and good behavior.
Uh-huh . . . I'm sure women are the only ones who would do such a thing. :rolleyes:

It's a human failing, Beth.

[MAJESTYK]

People often fear what they cannot understand. Hold your head high and be yourself

[CowGurl Rachel]

The first time I ever went out in public dressed was to a BBS party. It was at a club that we normally use for our GT's (get togethers) and I was actually hit on by men AND women (I was dressed as a white bunny/no, I don't have pics). I told the boys I only dance with girls, and several of the GG's actually ran interference for me, so the boys would back off. I did not know these GG's, but they new I was a CD. The LAST time I went out was a disaster. We went to a bar and were playing darts, when some MEN started harrassing me, and would NOT stop. The GG's I was with tried to help, but we finally left. In the parking lot, some of the women in the bar that witnessed this, came up to me and said that they are very sorry and that they "ripped those men a new one!". I haven't dressed in public since, but it is for the MEN whom I may meet, and with my temper, pride and the pink ninja inside, bad things may happen. That being said, I think you have to remember that society is changing, and some are resisting the change. If it is that bad for you, find some GG's to go out with, and if you are in a group, the comments won't be as noticable if at all. Just a thought.

Rachel :hugs:

[Melanie R]

Over the past 15 years my wife and I have sponsored and participated in 35 cruises where 30-50 crossdressers and some wives/family members are out in public for 5-16 days among 2000+ other passengers. After the first day most of the passengers know we are on board. We have rarely seen any backlash from others on board. Yes, some men are threatened by our presence while some have asked to talk privately about their own very secret crossdressing. Most of the women want to talk and ask the usual questions.

We have on some of the cruises been confronted by some religious right groups who challenge our sinful lifestyle. By the end of the cruise we have educated many of these people who end up being very supportive. On one cruise we had some of Jerry Falwell's church members who attended a party we had in our suite. They told us we would be welcome at any time to attend their church adding that most of the CD's looked better than they did.

We always tell those who participate in our cruises that if you dress appropriately and act dignified you will not have any problems. We do insist that those in the group not use the public restrooms reserved for women unless their gender marker says "female". That is a requirement of all cruises lines. With more unisex restrooms added to cruise ships this is becoming less of a problem. On all of our cruises on a formal night before dinner we have the ship's photographer take our group picture in the ship's atrium. Usually there are hundreds of other passengers who also take a picture of the group and also ask to pose with many of the group.

The key is education to conquer ignorance and the many myths about transgendered persons. The question always comes up can you go on board enfemme? On 35 cruises we have never had a problem with going on or leaving the ship enfemme.

[Emily Anderson]

If you look like prey, you'll find plenty of predators. It's a confidence thing, really.

[Nicole Erin]

Beth Lock, I forgot - don't let the comments or laughter of a few a-holes ruin your fun in going out.

The GG's who have done this, are they the same ones who look like their clothes are not stylish enough to sell at Family Dollar?

The ones who think their fat butt needs to be on display with the words "baby girl" across the back of their short shorts?

They probably laughed at you in order to make themselves feel better about their own worthless lives.

You could politely tell them to get off the quest card and to get a job. I guarantee they will not enjoy that comment. [I told that to an ex-neighbor once and her jaw hit the floor.]

Now pick your butt back up and enjoy yourself. F the haters and the laughers.

[Nicki B]

There seems to be a lot of cruelty out there, directed towards CD's. One has only to walk around dressed up, (CD'ing), to see that even women, who seem better at spotting a man in a skirt, use that ability to make a bit of a scene, at least by displaying a rude smirk, and so ridicule the CD'er. Men, though more violent on the street, especially if low class, do not seem to take it as such a comical matter, or even an insult, at least if they do not have a chip on their shoulder, as most people relatively confortable in their lives, do not.

Eh??? :strugglin

I'm glad I don't live where you do.. I've known puzzlement, curiosity, very rarely fear (always from men) - but cruelty?? No.

[Sharon]

Eh??? :strugglin

I'm glad I don't live where you do.. I've known puzzlement, curiosity, very rarely fear (always from men) - but cruelty?? No.

Me either. It might be because I am deaf in one ear and blind as a weevil, but I never experienced anything close to cruelty. I know that it happens, and just one occurrence is one too many, so I realize that I have been fortunate.

[Beth-Lock]

Uh-huh . . . I'm sure women are the only ones who would do such a thing. :rolleyes:

It's a human failing, Beth.

CaptLex,
That was a very thought provoking comment. When I began examining my own experience, I came across memories of me doing exactly that many, many years ago, (not beating up though, but verbally harassing another guy for trying to dress a little too punky, in those conservative times).
I do acknowledge that there is a pressure to confrom that can be good sometimes. But, it may in many instances, even when that is true, be a case of using a bad means with the hope of achieving a good end. We are in affect, taking it upon ourselves to force another along a path of their destiny that we think is best. Maybe it is not always wise to try and play God in these matters, when we may not understand. The prevailing opinion though of those who believe in democracy in social affairs, rather than just poltical events, would say this sort of interaction is natural, if hurtful.
In a nutshell, in apologizing (just above) for my own negative behavior, I am am in effect starting to excuse other's bad behavior against me. Well, live and learn.
As I said, your comment was a thought provoking one.

[TxKimberly]

Well, as you can see in my last post about being in Wilmington, I HAVE had encounters where people were clearly less than kind, but that has been the exception. The vast majority of the time I have been treated well by all, even well after it was clear to them that i was a male. So yes, there are people like that out there, but they are the exception, not the norm.

[bridget thronton]

I don't ever recall being treated cruelly by a woman when I am dressed.

[MJ]

well i am full time . and i have been treated well. if anything bad or incidents well maybe once a year . maybe you better find some better places to hang out in ..
try to relax if your looking too nervous you will be noticed more by everyone , i don't pass and i don't care.. and now days don't notice the looks i am too busy having fun ..

[Beth-Lock]

Mybe I should find better places to go, though I have had incidents in quite different places. I think it is very conservative here.
I looked for a Metropolitan Community Church here, but there is none in this city, apparently. Even wearing a pink shirt, (while dressed in male mode), at a big church I very often attend, raised the eyebrows of at least one guy. I thought that was being extraordinarily touchy, for I have worn it around town a fair amount, though only back a number of years ago.
Another sugestion has been that I should take more care about my appearance. I guess I am just lazy. A consequence is, I guess that I really haven't found my style or styles. (If you want to see a sample of my style, check my first photo in the picture place.)
A couple of days ago, I got a bit dolled up, but it was hot under the wig, so I could not stand it for long, and I concluded, after thinking about where I could wear it, that it was too extreme and costumey a look.
Meanwhile, I have made an enemy of an acquaintance I recently told and now have to face her sour puss when I run into her. It is enough to make one want to hol' up in one's apartment alone, forever. I sympathize more now with those who don't want to come out of the closet. I came out, and now am stepping back in to hide, it seems
Thanks for the supportive comments, all.

[DanaR]

Mybe I should find better places to go, though I have had incidents in quite different places. I think it is very conservative here.
I looked for a Metropolitan Community Church here, but there is none in this city, apparently.


What city do you live in? Maybe someone that lives near you could help give you some suggestions on places to go.

[Lara Smith]

I hope none of you, (especially GG's) misunderstood my comments. I have been fighting (as a man) for women's rights and equality since I was fifteen years old. I worked at a dragstrip when I was in high school. Shirley Muldowney was as good as any man in Top Fuel ever was and she eventually proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But in order to get sponsorship then (mid 60’s) she had to wear go go boots and pink mini shorts when she was at the track. I was never more embarrassed to be a male! I never forgot it either!

I don't have many male friends because I can't stand most of them. Far too Neanderthal for me. Yeah, I think many women are angry in this world. Men too. Men don't have a reason, women do. A man can do anything he wants to do as long as he is willing to get of his *&^ and work for it. A woman has to work three times as hard to get the same job and most likely never will get the same pay for the same job. I won't waste umpteen pages here talking about why. We all know how shortchanged women for the most part are in this world.

But, I have many women friends who suffer from what I call the "Princess Complex". They were fawned and mooned over by their male parent, (probably mom too) and somehow feel entitled, and when their "entitlement" didn’t come to pass in what we all know is the real world, they got pissed off about it and never got over it. And when a man, who looks great as a woman, encroaches on what they see as their world, and the entitlement they see as denied them by, guess who, males, well you get my drift.

I don’t dress to honor women or anything else. I do it because it is a force in me I can't deny. It was so when I was too young to remember, and long before I could intellectualize anything. I am tired of trying to figure it out. It feels good, and it feels right. At this point in my very long and interesting life, that is enough for me.

I have said it in many posts. Give women a break if they can’t deal with your dressing. You are male. You will never be female no matter how many surgeries you undergo. You will never experience the pain of childbirth, you will never carry a child in your womb, you will never experience the agony of menstrual cramps, and you will never have to go through “the change”

So when women are angry with you for infringing on their one turf that should only be theirs,( that is their ability to look beautiful and feminine and sexy), when you don’t have to suffer everything else they have to go through to have that gift, please understand where they are coming from.

[Nicole Erin]

So when women are angry with you for infringing on their one turf that should only be theirs,( that is their ability to look beautiful and feminine and sexy), when you don’t have to suffer everything else they have to go through to have that gift, please understand where they are coming from.

Well as soon as those angry women [or anybody] want to pay my bills and overtake my responsibilities, they will then have every right to tell me how to live my life. :D

[DemonicDaughter]

Lara, I was understanding your post till we got to here...



I have said it in many posts. Give women a break if they can’t deal with your dressing. You are male. You will never be female no matter how many surgeries you undergo. You will never experience the pain of childbirth, you will never carry a child in your womb, you will never experience the agony of menstrual cramps, and you will never have to go through “the change”.

I know a lot of TS/TG women who are REAL women. You do NOT have to have children to be considered a woman. You do NOT have to have cramps, go through the change or experience ANYTHING dealing with reproductive organs to be considered a woman! I do not have children and I never will, by my own choice. I have the least amount of problems with my monthly cycle and don't experience even a third of what other women do. And it doesn't make me any less a woman.

None of this is being stated in anger or meaning to imply you said something insulting to or about me (I hate that the net loses so much of the nuances of conversation). Its just that as a woman who has no intentions of ever having children, this is a topic heard all to often from both genders. As if a month cycle and popping out children is the only REAL way of being a woman. I disagree. Girls can have babies and it still doesn't make them women.

[Beth-Lock]

I do look for people who live in my city, but they are hard to find, or part of a crowd that has apparently rejected me, because, I guess, they feel I don't fit in. (As result of that, I am reluctant to state where I live, openly.) Maybe some day I will meet some people here in my home city, who would be helpful.

[SatinDoll00]

Just curious Beth-lock, are you a Metalocalypse fan??? I love the name!!!

[Beth-Lock]

Dear Satin,
Actually I have never heard of that. (Metalocalypse).
Note: Just now I tried to see some clips on YouTube, but my system does not have the software required, right now, as I am running a live operating system like mainly in RAM and temporary storage on the hard drive. I shall take a lllok once I get a proper system working again.

[Lara Smith]

Lara, I was understanding your post till we got to here...



I know a lot of TS/TG women who are REAL women. You do NOT have to have children to be considered a woman. You do NOT have to have cramps, go through the change or experience ANYTHING dealing with reproductive organs to be considered a woman! I do not have children and I never will, by my own choice. I have the least amount of problems with my monthly cycle and don't experience even a third of what other women do. And it doesn't make me any less a woman.

None of this is being stated in anger or meaning to imply you said something insulting to or about me (I hate that the net loses so much of the nuances of conversation). Its just that as a woman who has no intentions of ever having children, this is a topic heard all to often from both genders. As if a month cycle and popping out children is the only REAL way of being a woman. I disagree. Girls can have babies and it still doesn't make them women.

I agree completely with what you say here. My point is really about why women might see a man who looks as pretty as they do in a way that would make them not too happy about it. Even my wonderful wife has trouble with it sometimes. The first time I was fully dressed and fully shaved with her, she weighed more than she wanted to, you know maybe ten pounds and very self conscious about it because she was getting older and wanted to look like she did in her twenties again. She looked absolutely wonderful to me, but she wasn't comfortable with herself. Looking at me in heels and nylons she said, "My God, you look better in heels and nylons than I do!" She couldn't keep her hands of my legs, and it was a compliment, but I know she wasn't happy inside about it and it hurt her feelings and made her feel like less a sexy women, even though she doesn't like wearing heels and hose. Does that illustration help? Her feelings weren't lost on me in any way, even though I was just thrilled to be dressed with her and we had a wondeful time that weekend.

Lara

[Katherine Bell]

:2c:If the world treated each other the way they would want to be treated, not only would it be a perfect place but you would never feel the pain of another person's insecurities. When anyone belittles another good chance it is their own pain and self doubt that drives them.

The thing to do is be open mined and welcoming/loving of all people regardless of their differences to you. If you want to change the world, start with yourself. Then slowly, safely educate others. Being more open and discussing what it means to be a CD with all people will make it a less cruel world for all CD's.