FtM Question: How Important is Passing to You?

[CaptLex]

I've been reading some essays by Jamison Green (this guy, in case you haven't heard of him: http://www.jamisongreen.com/) and some things he said about "passing" got me thinking. Is it really important to be able to pass? If so, why? Would it be so bad if some people see me as male, some see me as female and some just can't figure out what they see? If they asked me, would I be comfortable saying, "I'm a man with a female body" or words to that effect? :thinking:

Just some stuff I've been pondering . . . anyone else? How important is passing to you and why or why not? :raisedeyebrow:

[Kieron Andrew]

Being taken on my word that i am male is very important to me....but, i am very happy to be counted as Trans Man (still a man right?)..so passing i guess is kinda irrelevant in a way, if they know im female bodied but take me on my word and treat me as male then its all good...those that dont know me, im not really bothered about, im all too willing to educate and correct them anyway

[metalguy639]

For me passing is pretty easy so I do not think about it too much, but on days where someone says ma'am to me I just look at them and correct them, then they look at me (because usually they were not paying attention before) and apologize. But if someone does come up and cal me ma'am I do not have a fit as I'm guessing some might or have in the past. I've noticed and I've done it myself before as well that when you are at work and you deal with the public then there are alot of times I've caught myself saying ma'am to a man and sir to a lady and gotten all kinds of shit for it (mostly from the females - insert roll eyes here)

Its unfortunate but for some they may never be able to pass completely whether they are FTM or MTF. There may always be something that gives them away rather physical or psychological because its really hard to go from living one way for your entire life being told certain things that are expected of you and then move the opposite thing and expect everyone to catch up with you. Sometimes it just does not happen. This can be really frustrating for some & can cause problems with others. The best thing to do is be happy with what you can do.

[Tristan]

Hmmm very good question. I guess in some ways I hate being read female it's like a blow to me or something. I rather be just seen as male and being found out as trans is something that still freaks me out a bit. On the other hand I can survive the female skin I have to go into for family stuff sometimes...I guess to me its more about the people I have to deal with, coworkers and etc, that see me as male that matters. I don't care if some street vendor I walk past thinks I'm female or whatever. As long as they don't stare or draw their attention solely on me.

[Adam]

to me it meeans alot i dont want people to question weather i am male or not i just want poeple to see me and think i am male because i am.

Dont get me wrong if someone calls me ma'am i dont have a hissy fit at them but it then makes me unhappy all day if someone asked me if im female or male i woulde give them a odd look and say male.

I dont want to let people no i am a transman freinds yeah sure but most of my every day freinds dont no eather now.

When i get a job i wont tell them and when i start collage i wont tell them.

So in short it means a hell of a lot that i pass :D

hope that made some kind of sence

[CaptLex]

hope that made some kind of sence
Yeah that made total sense, Adam :thumbsup:

[Devon James]

I like to pass as a man, I feel so much better being male. At work they joke around a bit by calling me ma'am on purpose, however they do know what/who I am. In public places I try not to listen to what people say, it's quite tiring to correct everybody. If I want I can pass perfectly, other days I don't really care. I'm still stuck in the middle with my feelings, although I'm getting more and more leaning to the male-side.

In short, I like to pass as a man, but it's no high importance.

[Cai]

To me, it's less important that I "pass" than that I'm treated as male, at least by my friends. I know people that I knew before transition, for example, will probably always look at me and be able to see a girl. But as long as they treat me the way I want to be treated, and use the right pronouns, I don't mind that so much.

Out in the world, though, around people I don't know, I care a lot about passing. The difference is, I think, that people who know me as trans will treat me as male no matter how I look, whereas people I don't know will treat me according to what they see.

[DanielMacBride]

To me, it's less important that I "pass" than that I'm treated as male, at least by my friends. I know people that I knew before transition, for example, will probably always look at me and be able to see a girl. But as long as they treat me the way I want to be treated, and use the right pronouns, I don't mind that so much.

Out in the world, though, around people I don't know, I care a lot about passing. The difference is, I think, that people who know me as trans will treat me as male no matter how I look, whereas people I don't know will treat me according to what they see.

Exactly! It isn't so much about "passing" as such for Me as about people respecting My gender and if I say I'm male, then they treat Me as male no matter what they may or may not see. Although it's always nice to pass because of course it makes Me feel like what others see matches what I know about Myself.

[CaptLex]

Thanks for your responses, guys - all very helpful. Now a follow-up question, if I may . . .

Some of you mentioned wanting to be treated as male. I want to be called by my male name and addressed by male pronouns, etc., but there's more to it than that, isn't there? We recently responded to a thread in the TS section where we discussed how differently we are treated when people perceive us as male or female - the most common word there was "condescending", as I recall.

So my question is this: if you were still treated with respect and no one crossed your boundaries or condescended to you, would that make a difference? In other words, if people called you "he" and "him" but were obviously still being patronizing would that be okay or would you care less about the pronouns and more about the actual way they treat you?

BTW, if the question is confusing, I'll try to make it clearer. :blink:

[Devon James]

I think I understand what you mean Lex. For me being treated right is more important that the pronouns and such. Being treated as a man comes closer to my feelings, well being called Deron is nice too of course that makes it complete.

[CaptLex]

I think I understand what you mean Lex. For me being treated right is more important that the pronouns and such. Being treated as a man comes closer to my feelings, well being called Deron is nice too of course that makes it complete.

Thanks, Deron, and for the sake of clarity, can you tell me what "being treated as a man" means to you?

I ask because, as I mentioned in another thread somewhere, sometimes people call me by my name and use the proper pronouns, but it's not enough for me because they still talk to me in a way I know they wouldn't talk to any other guy or their body language gives them away. Is that what you mean? :raisedeyebrow:

[Devon James]

Thanks, Deron, and for the sake of clarity, can you tell me what "being treated as a man" means to you?

I ask because, as I mentioned in another thread somewhere, sometimes people call me by my name and use the proper pronouns, but it's enough for me because they still talk to me in a way I know they wouldn't talk to any other guy or their body language gives them away. Is that what you mean? :raisedeyebrow:

Yeah sort of, I guess. It's difficult for me to put feelings under words. At work and friends I'm "one of the guys", they don't hold back subjects/jokes they wouldn't talk about when there are women around. I really don't know how to put in words but I feel like a man when I'm around them. My family leave it in the middle, they don't tread me as a man or as a woman (which is fine be me).

Interesting subject by the way, you come with nice things to think about lately :)

[CaptLex]

Yeah sort of, I guess. It's difficult for me to put feelings under words.
I think I understand what you mean - it's nice when people accept us as we are and this makes us feel comfortable around them. At least that's what I got from what you said. :smilep:


Interesting subject by the way, you come with nice things to think about lately :)
Haha, there's a lot of confusing stuff swimming around in my head all the time, and I just wonder if I'm the only one or if other people go through some of that, so I ask.

I've probably got other people dizzy now too. :tongue:

[Devon James]

I think I understand what you mean - it's nice when people accept us as we are and this makes us feel comfortable around them. At least that's what I got from what you said. :smilep:


Haha, there's a lot of confusing stuff swimming around in my head all the time, and I just wonder if I'm the only one or if other people go through some of that, so I ask.

I've probably got other people dizzy now too. :tongue:

Yes, for me it's important to be able who I am, until my 20th I couldn't due to reasons I won't bother you with (at least not yet).

You're certainly not the only person with "confusing stuff swimming around in your head", I'm glad you're asking and make people think. For me it's helping me thinking about myself and who I am. I also have lot's of stuff in my head, but I don't know how to talk about it or with who.

[Felix]

Ok for me yes it is important that peeps see outside what is ging on inside but I don't it phaze me if peeps see the female in me after all it is part of me and a big part. I am reaizing that I prefermale pronouns for me its took a long while to get this sorted in my head but it seems quite natural now. I think thats since I've been more visible as the person I really am. I've never really hidden as such cos ive been dressing in work and outside of work for two years now but what I mean is there is more acceptance there now or seems to be. Time will tell anyways. xx Felix :hugs:

[Alan]

For me, it's important that my friends, especially my male friends, treat me exactly like they treat their other male friends.

The most important though is that no one goes out of their way to treat me differently because I'm trans. To me, it's enough to be called 'Alan' and 'he', as long as I'm not talked down to (and those who do -- the vast majority of them, I am smarter than, so I can talk down to them in return).

My friends always treated me kinda like a guy because that's how I acted, so it's not a huge difference now that they know I really am a guy. If that made sense AT ALL.

[Taylor105]

I really don't care how perfect strangers see me. I try to look and present as male as I can but if I get ma'amed then I don't really feel the need to correct them. I mean if I am in the check out line at a grocery store I just want to get the hell out of there anyway. lol

But in my life with people who know I am male and are part of my life it is imperative to me that they call me Taylor and refer to me using male pronouns. I have given people two full years to get this straight. And after having survived a near death experience I decided that life is just too short to try to let others be happy and not myself in reference to me. And what I mean by that is that I was keeping people in my life who refused to start calling me Taylor or refused to refer to me as a male. Since going through the coma and all I decided to start living life for me and if people think it's selfish then so be it.

So there are two blood relatives who are really not in my life anymore because of it. My sister, whom I miss dearly and my father....who I really didn't have a relationship with anyway. And then there is someone who was really close to me...she was like a sister, her name is Karen. We were roommates for years in Texas but she will not give me the respect of using male pronouns with me. I miss her but the ball is in her court now. I have told her that when she is ready to contact me and be in my life again all she has to do is say that she is ready to give me the respect of calling me he/him and then we can be friends again. But she refuses. And you know what? So be it.

I think once I am on T my sister will come around. My dad is a lost cause and I don't know about Karen. But it is that important to me. I refuse to live one more day with people in my immediate circle making me feel bad by referring to me as a female when they have had years to adjust to my being a male now. I came out to them over two years ago now. So Karen's excuse of "I need more time" is not going to fly anymore. She pulled that one two weeks ago. I said "I'm not putting myself through this emotional crap with you anymore. I don't want to hear anything more from you other than you accept and respect me as a male and until you can say that then do not contact me". Does that seem cold? Probably so coming from me. But I am sick of being hurt.

Anyway, basically the answer to the question is that in public around people I probably won't see ever again I could give a rat's weiner if I always pass but in my real life with my immediate circle then yes, they best respect me and accept me as a guy or they won't be in my life.

Peace!!!

[Abraxas]

I dunno, I tend to get a bit panicky if people read me as female when I'm out and about. I get heart palpitations and stuff. And the other thing is, over the years I've gotten so much 'oh, you're so pretty; I can't believe anyone ever thinks you look like a boy,' and similar stuff, from my grandma, that if I get read as female around her, that just cements the whole idea in her mind. Which makes me feel bad.

Thing is, with my friends and stuff, as soon as it sort of clicks with them that I've got a female body, they start thinking of me as a girl, or at least as some sort of novelty item. 'You're my boy, but you've got real nice...' Ugh. I got that last night from a friend. It becomes such a fascinating subject for them, and they get all curious as to... like, whether I look 'normal' under all the clothes and the binders and the packers. I'm not some sort of exhibit, you know? I"m not another species; I'm pretty sure I look more or less the same as anyone else. That and, it's none of their business anyway, unless I decide I want it to be.
But yeah, if my friends are calling me by female pronouns, that, to me, means they think of me as a girl. And socially, there's quite a difference, as you all know.

I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at, but it's just something that's been bothering me.

[Alan]

I was talking with a friend from school today, and he's known me for 5 years, all of them as a girl. Recently, I came out to him that I am a guy, and we haven't actually seen each other since (net only; he's working and doesn't have a lot of time), but he switched seamlessly into 'he' and 'Alan' and just how he addresses his male friends as opposed to his female ones. And I know he's trying to make sure he keeps to it, and, just reading this, I feel really lucky I have someone like that in my life -- someone who doesn't mind at all and understands without me saying so that this is really important to me.

[CaptLex]

Thanks again guys, all good answers. :)

[SirTrey]

So there are two blood relatives who are really not in my life anymore because of it.
Hey Taylor....Me, too....My whole family....My mother has asked Me to ride off into the sunset and leave the family as a result of this....She says she "can't stand to see Me like this and prefers not to"....My daughter is the latest casualty (and consequently My only grandchild)....She has now been convinced by My mother that it's the best thing for Luna, since I am obviously going to bring nothing but misery to her life, which is the furthest thing from the truth, obviously....So they have all basically told Me they never want to see or hear from Me again....I haven't been posting, but this is all just happening...and I haven't been feeling much like talking, to be honest....So what is the cost of passing and how important is it? I guess I have to say it's pretty important....because transitioning has personally cost Me almost everything and everyone....but, I have the right to be who I am....I HAVE to be who I am, whether anyone understands it or not....but, in the final analysis, I have to say, if they can disregard Me like they have, just remove Me from their lives as easily as this...I must not have been all that important to begin with....which is a very hard thing to wrap your head around....but I will....My life is going forward....and I am and will be the man that I have always been on the inside....if they can't stand to look at that, they don't have to....it's MY life....and those who are with Me on the other side will BE My new family....and already are....so, yeah, being called "he" is very important to Me....it what I get for all that I have sacrificed....and it has cost Me plenty.

[ZenFrost]

Passing is important to me because it's being finally acknowledged as what I really am but was never acknowledged as being before. It means that people are one step closer to seeing me as what I am then what I'm not, and that makes me feel like I can finally start being me and not that other person I've been pretending to be.

[Wolfie]

Your post Trey hit a nerve for me - I sat and read it so many times and want to send out a big :hugs: To lose that what is dear is such a cost for something that we do not choose but just are.
I have spent so many years trying to be what my physical body says I am and trying to persuade myself I was a freak, it was a result of a rotten childhood (so my therapist tried to tell me!) and that I was just odd. Now half way through my life and the need to kill the female inside I realised that my male side was the real me and needed to be set free. That I wasn't a freak as I believed and that it wasn't so much a choice but as a way to live by being true to myself. In the process I stand to lose my life partner who has been my rock and best friend. He likes women - I like him. Some friends have freaked and yeap they are gone - but then were they really friends? I think we all can answer that. I know my parents will disown me - but then as they arn't really mine anyway - I'm kinda careless keep losing parents! I was never that important and this will give them the final excuse to turn away that they have been looking for.
So yes I want and need to pass as male - I'm working on it sometimes well, sometimes just getting odd looks but for every 'he/him/sir/Ben' I grow a little more confident.
So :tongueout to those who reject and once we manage to pick ourselves up after the rejection we can move on to those who can and do accept us for who we truly are. Just wish it wasn't so hard to get up from the hurt though.

[DanielMacBride]

I hear ya Trey - I have lost a lot of My family because of this, too, thanks to My mother. I now have no contact whatsoever with any of My girls (3 of them live with her) and she has poisoned them against Me with all sorts of lies about how f**ked up I am and what a bad person that makes Me :( And the entire rest of the family does not speak to Me at all except at Christmas when they HAVE to....My mother is a bloody good bad publicity machine and I have no opportunity to correct the lies she puts out :(

So yeah, I know all about this costing plenty. But so be it - I know what I need to do and I will still do it no matter what the cost.

[Taylor105]

I found this interesting video and there are many other videos on this topic. Using the word "passing" may not be the word we should be using. Because we really shouldn't be trying to "pass" to be something we already are. Because we already are guys. So why use the word passing? Anyone else have thoughts on this?

r0JzXu7fnoQ

[Alan]

I think it's more: we're trying to pass as something we don't LOOK like.

[metalguy639]

Interesting. I also have not had luck with my family on this matter. My sister is my best friend and has lived with me for about 10 years. We are all we have had. I have not heard from my father in about 10 years, my mother died almost 20 years ago, my aunts/uncles are not very helpful to begin with. Before I came out my family was already lost from me and I've not had contact from a majority of them in awhile. It sounds bad I know but I'm waiting on the richer ones to just die and leave me the money that they cannot get away from leaving because they live in a state that WILL NOT allow you to write out your child out of your will... Too F'ing bad dad! Anyways as a result I have not come out to my family and most likely will not since I no longer really talk to any of them for abandoning me in my life before all this.

And Taylor I cannot imagine how it is for you in Alabama. I was born and raised in Alabama and I hated the place. Since I was pretty much obviously transgendered as a child I did not fit in and got beat up and was threatened by others that they would kill me. My parents had to move me from school to school back then. I'm 40 now so this was a long time ago and I lived in Birmingham in the Hoover/Bluff Park area. So as a result I pretty much hate Alabama but I cannot imagine how hard it is for you there since they are pretty close minded in some areas. :(