The Double-Edged Sword of Sexism

[Valerie Nicole]

For those of you who've read my blog (yeah right!), some of this will be familiar, but my old views on sexism have been coupled here with a recent realization. First, let me explain exactly what kind of sexism I'm going to be discussing here: sexism against men. Specifically speaking, any discrimination against crossdressers (in the case I'm making, Male to Female crossdressers) is a form of sexism against men. Why? Because it places arbitrary limits on what men are allowed to do.

Women can wear skirts or dresses and the most discrimination they will face is that the clothing they wear is either inappropriate for the occasion or it does not suit them. Men, on the other hand, no matter how tasteful their clothing, run the risk of public humiliation and being mocked if they dress in women's attire. Their freedoms are limited for no reason other than the body they happen to have, and more specifically, their genitalia.

In a nutshell, that's my argument for why discrimination against crossdressers is discrimination against men. It's that the freedom is limited. The other day, however, I realized something even more disturbing. Discrimination against crossdressers is also discrimination against women. And yes, I'm still talking about Male to Female crossdressers. So, perhaps the word sexism does not apply as neatly as I once thought it did, but it serves my purpose, because sexism can cut both ways.

Warning: The rest of this post may be slightly controversial.

Now, to explain. How is discrimination against crossdressers also a discrimination against women? Well, when you think about it, women are allowed to dress and act as they please and at worst people might take them for gay or butch. If this is inaccurate, I apologize, but it is based on my observations. So, women can act masculine or feminine with no major consequences, but men do not have the same freedoms.

The reason this is discrimination against women is that in passing judgment on men for wanting to be feminine or dress like women, the judgment is, to some extent at least, that being that way is in some way bad or unnatural. It seems to put men on a higher platform, which they should not descend. Women can imitate men without consequences because at least they are not engaging in something that is beneath them. Men, on the other hand, in wearing women's clothes, are doing something that might be considered beneath them.

This is my interpretation of how people might view crossdressers in a negative light. There are likely holes in this interpretation, and I'm sure not everybody has the same reasons for disapproving of the behaviour of crossdressers. However, I do see the roots of this discrimination as essentially sexist.

So, post any comments, questions, or disagreements and I will try to answer them. Anyone else see it my way? Or do you all have different ideas of what it really means to be discriminated against? Or do you even disagree that such discrimination takes place? I look forward to anything you might have to say.

[Alan]

My first disagreement with your post:
I don't think women get away with being masculine. This'll be a bit controversial, but think of the names Thatcher and Clinton (Hillary) got attached to them. Clinton was called a slew of names for being a woman and being strong and determined and what the media decided was masculine.

Girls are told not to be so tomboyish and told to act like a lady. Girls are STILL told to be a good girl and mind her manners and hold her emotions in check. Boys are told not to cry, but then they get to do real contact sports. Girls are enrolled in ballet and given lessons on being 'perfect ladies'. My parents were excellent in not doing this, but my school and other friends' parents WEREN'T. And my parents' friends, and my grandparents...

Girls are told constantly that they are less than men. That men will always dominate and rule them -- just check out our media. Men are called strong, women are called bitches or ball-busters. Clinton's clothes got focused on, and it was a huge story when she showed a bit of cleavage or when she "teared up".

I spent years studying media psychology and societal psychology. If a girl does bad in math, she is most often told that that's okay, no one really expected better. If a boy does bad in math, people tut. I was part of the Math Team, which was purely guys for the longest time. I was part of Academic Decathlon, and until I took control of it as Captain, we had ONE female member (not counting myself, even though people saw me as a female). Our Science Olympiad had far more guys than girls. My Calculus BC class was full of guys. So was my AP Physics class. And my AP Chem class. And pretty much any AP math/science I took.

Girls are encouraged to wear the ****tiest clothes and wear make-up and those who don't are called all sorts of nasty names and ostracized.

So, to say that women get away with being masculine is laughable, no offense. A woman is expected to look her best always. My mother was once criticized on a job interview for wearing dark blue socks with black pants. No man would've been criticized for the same error. I go out in shorts, and I get strange looks for not shaving my legs like a proper woman.

A woman never raises her voice, and any time a woman yells or displays negative emotion, men assume it is that time of the month and thereby ignore everything she says. Women who demand help in the house are termed 'nags', women who rule the family have 'hen-pecked husbands'. Women who sleep around are ****s, men who sleep around are studs.

So. I take serious issue with the 'women can do this or that without consequences', because they CAN'T.

Second disagreement/point/whatever:
Limits on what men can do? Society places limits on what EVERYONE can do. Crossdressing is just one of those things, and I don't think it's any more sexist than saying that men aren't allowed to cry (which is just plain stupid). ANY sweeping generalization/arbitrary rule can be called sexist, but then we're starting to approach insanity.

There's a point in the whole 'beneath me' thing, but I think it's more than that. Society currently places a huge emphasis on what is MASCULINE and MANLY.

Dressing up in skirts is neither of those. Men are encouraged to be macho, and doing something not macho is shunned, because they don't stick to the spirit of being a man. It's not "this is beneath you as a man", it's "this doesn't conform to the expectation of masculinity that you should follow as a man."

After all, the same applies to women. I get the weirdest looks when I say I want to go to some formal event in a tux and not a dress.

[Katherine Bell]

Not to minimize anyone’s discussion on this topic but Madonna song what its like for a girl kind of sums it all up. Well as best as a pop song can. To hate men for being a woman does a disservice to men and woman because as Madonna acutely states, its because people think being a girl is meaningless.

The history of men, woman and clothes tells us that it was not always so. I blame the origins of Christian to some degree for this stifling of gender roles. How unfair is it that priests can wear dresses but would chastise any other man for wearing one? Men use to be much more flamboyant and free with clothes and behavior. But then again during that time I would have been the equivalent of anglie joile for my size. It sucks for a lot of people being around during these repressive times. It’s how you handle yourself when you’re not on top that makes the difference.

[TGMarla]

Really, there is no restriction on what men wear. There's an imaginary, but real social restriction on what men can get away with wearing, though. But women can manage to be feminine even in male attire. (See Annie Hall...yeah, I hate her, too, but it proves the point) Men just can't seem masculine when wearing a dress, pantyhose, and high heels. So bitch about it all you want, but it's not going to change all that radically in this lifetime, no matter how militant transgendered people get about it. It's one thing for women to wear pants and ties, it's another for men to wear skirts and dresses.

[Alan]

Women don't seem masculine wearing a dress, though, so it's not like women can pull off something men can.

Lamenting social restriction is a waste of energy. 100 years ago, women couldn't wear pants. And then some women did, changed things around. Lamenting things you don't like is pointless.... doing something about it is the only thing that will really change anything.

Admittedly, there's not much one CAN do... besides wear it anyway and accept the consequences. And stay strong in the face of said consequences.

[boy2girl31]

Lamenting social restriction is a waste of energy. 100 years ago, women couldn't wear pants. And then some women did, changed things around. Lamenting things you don't like is pointless.... doing something about it is the only thing that will really change anything.

Admittedly, there's not much one CAN do... besides wear it anyway and accept the consequences. And stay strong in the face of said consequences.

Well said hiding who we are does not change society. I admitt that showing ourselves is hard I myself am just taking the first steps but together we can and will change the world.

[Joy Carter]

.

The history of men, woman and clothes tells us that it was not always so. I blame the origins of Christian to some degree for this stifling of gender roles. How unfair is it that priests can wear dresses but would chastise any other man for wearing one? .

In spite of what a man or woman of the clergy may ware, what they do ware has nothing to do with gender. The dress as you call it has it's origins in tradition. Take a look at the "tutu" like costume the Greek formal guards ware. It has nothing to do with gender but tradition.

No one can dictate to us what to ware. It's all up to us and how we handle, what someone else may say.

[yms]

Hi Valerie -

I just wanted to say that I think you have nailed it exactly. Plenty of sociologists and feminists would agree with you. Our culture, and many around the world (take China for example) place a premium on males and masculinity.

I think the biggest reason that crossdressing does not gain social acceptance is not that it is a co-opting of femininity but that it is a relinquishing of masculinity. I don't think it has anything to do with people perceiving crossdressers as gay men, because even gay men can be decidedly masculine (Rock Hudson, anyone).

Thanks for an interesting post.

[Kate Simmons]

Maybe Valerie but when the "ball" is in our court, it depends on how well we play the "game". It takes a little finesse sometimes but it is doable.:)

[MJ]

Maybe Valerie but when the "ball" is in our court, it depends on how well we play the "game". It takes a little finesse sometimes but it is doable.:)

Arianna hit it right on the head , but i feel your over reacting i don't pass and i am full time and i wear summer skirts flip flops very little makeup but for most 95% of the time nobody cares . yes there is some small issues while i am out but very little .
i think it's your fear talking you should get out more your see it's not so bad

[mattie]

I agree with Valerie too. While it's true that some women will get some flack for being "masculine" the truth is that the criticism is nowhere near the intensity it is for men who do the same thing in the reverse role.

Take the Hillary Clinton example; I agree that she did get some amount of ridicule for "trying to be a man", however nobody was assuming that she was a pedophile, or had lost her mind, or was gay, or was going to get a sex change because of the clothes she wore. Yet this is the kind of treatment crossdressers get all the time.

While it's true that men can indeed wear whatever they want, it's not entirely accurate to say that this means there's gender equality, because the consequences of wearing even slightly feminine articles are much more intense for men than they are for women. You can technically walk down the street naked - but the consequences prevent most from doing so. Likewise, the consequences are steep for men wearing "feminine" articles compared to women who wear "male" articles.

I agree with Valerie that the reason the discrimination is more intense against men who want to be feminine is because of the stereotypes society holds against women. This discrimination is in turn conveyed upon men who have even the slightest interest in femininity.

For example, one main reason another man might think that his crossdresser friend is gay for wearing feminine clothes is because the man thinks that the reason women "dress up", or wear makeup is to garner sexual attention from men. It's logical with this stereotype to assume that the reason your friend dresses up is to try and get sexual attention from men as well. I used to think this myself.

One of the strongest reasons men generally don't develop any aspect of their feminine sides is because femininity is still widely seen as inferior - and the consequences in society are too great for any man to align with those "feminine" traits. We have these terms like "don't be a sissy", and "don't be a girl" etc that remind us of this every day. And numerous data point to the reality of this discrimination in places of work, levels of pay, and job titles. When a woman gets into an executive role in the business world, many men wonder if she got there by "sleeping her way to the top", the same is seldom true in the reverse.

I do agree that society puts pressure on all of us in different ways, but I do think if you look at the reasons behind many of the problems we crossdressers deal with many of these issues are rooted in the same issues and discrimination that women have dealt with for thousands of years.

I'm not going to say that this is the only underlying factor in the debate mind you, but I think Valerie gets it right when she brings up that this is one of the identifiers of an unjust and still male-dominated society.

One thing we can agree on for sure is that the way to make the world better is for more of us to be brave enough to come out, and to not let the world bully us into being something we're not. There's a lot to be learned from those girls who one day decided it was okay to wear pants.

[Karren H]

Well, personally I do not feel discriminated against.... I could care less if people don't like what I wear or how I dress.. I still go out enfemme and go where I want... So no one is interfering with my ability to practice my hobby...

Yeah so what I'd I can't wear a dress to work.. I actually enjoy the duelality of my life... Being able to live as a guy or as a girl... Unlike women at work who are forced to dress up every day I can be the pig when I want... Just because I crossdress doesn't mean I want to do it 27/7... Just like I wouldn't want to play ice hockey 24/7.. Though I'd probably play ice hockey more than I'd crossdress given no restriction!!! Hahahaha

So if you feel discriminated aginst then go fight your fight... I'm happy with what I'm doing and who I am thanks.....

[CaptLex]

Things will never be fair for both sides until everyone is considered equal. How many MtF crossdressers are really willing to give up male privilege for the ability to dress without discrimination? :raisedeyebrow:

[Stargirl]

Well, what if Hillary and Ms. Thatcher wore pantsuits with "packys?". The people of Howling, West Virgina would never be the same. Old man "Yates" would have to double up on his heart pills, and trot down to the church 3 times a week to "discuss" the perversity of the world, and "women who have gone mad." People feel threatened by change. On the other hand, they can be remarkably tolerant when men/women make huge amounts of money crossdressing as entertainers. "Well, s/he has to provide for his family, and people come in on bu$$es, and want to see how good he is at imitating dame$". However, if the local grocer at Charlies Stop and Shop wants to dress full time, he is considered a "wack job" with a "tendency to recruit youngsters into his twisted lifestyle. "

And men generally get away with taking younger women for wives than older women who take up with much younger men. The older men are "distinguished" and "wanting a family" "well set financially" but the older women are considered by some to be "robbing the cradle, wrinkled old hags, bewitchers, nymphos, mother substitutes".

[valenstein]

Really good points on both sides. I do think that people in the public eye get a lot more crap beacuse it makes media news. It's the small stuff that bothers me most, and goes to Valerie's point. If a guy walks into a room full of guys with (let's say, a baby bag), odds are, one of the guys is going to say, "Hey, nice purse Jennifer" and have a laugh. If a woman walks into a room full of women wearing a football jersey, I don't think much would be said. Maybe some of the women are thinking about saying something, but don't. Women tend not to belittle people they are friendly towards (at least in public), while it's almost second nature to men. Exceptions apply, but this is where I see the gap the most.

[CaptLex]

Women tend not to belittle people they are friendly towards (at least in public), while it's almost second nature to men.
Not to their face maybe, but plenty gets said behind their backs while they smile in their faces. At least most men will let you know where you stand with them right up front. I'm generalizing, of course, because there are exceptions on both sides, but I prefer the direct approach to the hypocrisy. :p

[valenstein]

Not to their face maybe, but plenty gets said behind their backs while they smile in their faces.

LOL, I have very few male friends, so I know that well. :)

With guys, it is a sort of odd bonding, being "let into the club". I'd felt like an outsider towards my gf's family until the guys started throwing stuff at me when I wasn't looking. It's so bizarre! The poking at gender/masculinity is always one of the first targets, and it gets to me.

[Kate Simmons]

Things will never be fair for both sides until everyone is considered equal. How many MtF crossdressers are really willing to give up male privilege for the ability to dress without discrimination? :raisedeyebrow:Not too many my friend. Although I always consider everyone equal no matter who they are.;):)

[Alan]

Things will never be fair for both sides until everyone is considered equal. How many MtF crossdressers are really willing to give up male privilege for the ability to dress without discrimination? :raisedeyebrow:

WELL said! This is a point I find also in racism discussions with whites saying how we need to give blacks more power, but they never want to give up any of their own.

Male privilege is a nasty, sexist thing, and men don't easily give it up -- not even, I find, the ones that want to be women. It's nice not to be targeted for being a woman.


Not to their face maybe, but plenty gets said behind their backs while they smile in their faces. At least most men will let you know where you stand with them right up front. I'm generalizing, of course, because there are exceptions on both sides, but I prefer the direct approach to the hypocrisy. :p

OOOOH, in general, women talk SO MUCH SH*T behind your back. If you don't wear the right clothes or something, there is DEFINITE looking-down.

I like the male bluntness. I hate subtext and such, because I can't ever figure it out.

/claps. Lex, your points were great. And concise. Which means, I should shut up now.

[Bev06 GG]

Hi Valerie,
I agree with you, male cross dressers do get frowned upon by society more than female cross dressers. Not that female cross dressers dont get their fair share of discrimination of course they do. They are not regarded though as perverts, wimps, sissies or big girls blouses.

Like it or not, the male has traditionally been the bread winner, the provider, the protector, the head of the household. WE are predominantly a nation of traditionalists. Whether we like it or not we all have our prejudices. they are inbuilt and a result of our social class and upbringing. So when someone challenges those views and opinions that we regard as the norm we dont like it, infact we feel very uncomfortable with it.

Another reason society struggles with it is because alot of guys go in the closet because they too have a pre conceived idea of what their male role is supposed to be. Women cds on the other hand are generally speaking more confident and up front becuse they are going from a more subservient role to a much more dominant role.

I guess the thing to do is accept that because we have a way to go before socety accepts it as normal and however much we disapprove it will continue to happn.

Take care
Bev

[tvbeckytv]

im not sure there is as much sexism as you make out.
I suspect if a woman cross dressed in you average office enviroment, it would raise eyebrows. Cross dressing is wearing the clothes of the other sex. Very few women i ever seen do that, but of course plenty wear WOMENS trousers, so its hardly crossdressing. If a woman turns up at work wearing a mans suit, all the usual gay assumptions are just as likely to be made.
It is a cultural thing. there are plenty of places in the world where it is fine for a man to wear a dress, but it isnt called a dress, and it is a male garment

[mattie]

I see your point - but while there are indeed some cases where a woman wearing a man's suit for example might "turn heads" you don't hear about women getting killed for wearing men's clothes - but you do hear about crossdressers getting killed or mugged.

Girlfriends wear the pants, underwear, jackets, t-shirts, (just about every article) of their boyfriend's wardrobe these days and it's seen as normal or even sexy - the reverse is not true. Can you imagine if a man were to wear the exact same articles of his girlfriend's wardrobe in public? He might lose his friends. Why is this?

When I get down to the why and honestly answer the question for myself is how I became convinced that there is a part of this inconsistency that's rooted in male dominance and the need for many males to protect their clan's status - some are even willing to kill for it sadly.


Cross dressing is wearing the clothes of the other sex. Very few women i ever seen do that, but of course plenty wear WOMENS trousers, so its hardly crossdressing.

[Brianna1]

We all know it's never going to go away until there are enough of us out there doing it...things have changed but slowly. Many of us wear nail polish/gel nails/acrylics 24/7 and it's become fairly normal. I live in and around a country town in Australia and in 6 months, I've hardly had a comment on my gel nails. When I have, it's been positive. I also colour my hair...I'm 52 years old and it could be seen as very negative. Both my nails techs have worked in the USA and they have told me no one bats an eyelid at it. There are always going to be some people who give you heaps when you aren't the same as everyone else (different) and then they'll call you boring if you never stick your head out of your shell!! It's just life and humans. Their jibes only have power if we give it to them. There are plenty of tales of acceptance on this forum, we just need to keep plugging away, just like the suffragettes did in the early days of women's rights! And look what they achieved. It'll be a long road!!

[CaptLex]

you don't hear about women getting killed for wearing men's clothes - but you do hear about crossdressers getting killed or mugged.
Maybe YOU don't hear of it . . . to be more precise: transmen are attacked all the time. But that goes beyond a girl wearing mens' clothes.


Girlfriends wear the pants, underwear, jackets, t-shirts, (just about every article) of their boyfriend's wardrobe these days and it's seen as normal or even sexy - the reverse is not true.
As I stated before, it's cute and sexy if she still looks like a girl, but people can get very hostile if they see what they think is a girl who wants to hide her female looks and femininity.

[Alan]

Maybe YOU don't hear of it . . . to be more precise: transmen are attacked all the time. But that goes beyond a girl wearing mens' clothes.


As I stated before, it's cute and sexy if she still looks like a girl, but people can get very hostile if they see what they think is a girl who wants to hide her female looks and femininity.

Which is in fact the real sexism here, because women have to Be Kept In Their Place. If a woman starts thinking she can be a man, then we have Problems and Must Stop It.

I think one of men's biggest fears is that they will lose all power over women, when they've held said power for millennia. I don't mean every single man you meet is consciously fretting about it, but take Man collectively, and look around at what's being done, and one could -- and usually does -- make a pretty convincing case that it is a big fear.

If nothing else, yesterday's Daily Show (when they had a report on women being called 'cougars' for preying on younger men) illuminates that there IS this current in society.

Men are scoffed for wanting to be women, but from a societal POV, that's like going backwards.

Women, however, when they want to be men (ie, then, transmen and not women) are perceived as trying to break through some kind of barrier. People don't give up power easily.

[Laura_Stephens]

I don't know if I can really add anything to this discussion, but I would like to point out that threads like this are the reason I like this board more than any other TG board. Thanks, all!

[Fab Karen]

I think one of men's biggest fears is that they will lose all power over women, when they've held said power for millennia. I don't mean every single man you meet is consciously fretting about it, but take Man collectively, and look around at what's being done, and one could -- and usually does -- make a pretty convincing case that it is a big fear.

If nothing else, yesterday's Daily Show (when they had a report on women being called 'cougars' for preying on younger men) illuminates that there IS this current in society.

Men are scoffed for wanting to be women, but from a societal POV, that's like going backwards.

Women, however, when they want to be men (ie, then, transmen and not women) are perceived as trying to break through some kind of barrier. People don't give up power easily.
While what you're saying is true of some, the more we talk in generalizations the further we get from reality.

[Alan]

While what you're saying is true of some, the more we talk in generalizations the further we get from reality.

Reality is almost always wrong. *

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously, though, not talking in generalizations makes it pointless. While we can approach this anecdotally, it would be scientifically meaningless, since anecdotes are the least reliable in determining the status quo. It may illuminate or may contradict what science/sociology has deemed to be the status quo, but the status quo can't be determined via anecdote.

Statistics, more specifically psychological statistics, is more used to determine it. Mathematically less chance to be completely off from the ACTUAL s.q.

*"Reality is almost wrong" would be from House, M.D., Occam's Razor (1.03)

[Fab Karen]

collectively, women are like this ___________, collectively, FtM's are like this ___________, collectively humans are like this _____________ etc.
( saying not all are like that doesn't invalidate your point )

[Alan]

I *did* say they're not all like that. COLLECTIVELY means taken as a whole, when viewed as a group. A group does not share the values of every single individual, but rather, finds some kind of average.

I realize I use the term collectively... since it means taken as a group.

Look... Collectively, women are physically weaker than men. However, my aunt can beat the shit out of any man, and my best (male) friend would probably lose to my sister in a fight. However... as a whole, viewed as a group, ie, collectively.....

[Emily Anderson]

I don't think it's a discrimation against men or women. It's a discrimation against crossdressers, and only because of societal pressure for the sexes to conform to a certain mold, which as demonstrated by some of the responses, is changing over time. Basically, it's the "behaviour" which is targeted by the discrimination, not the sex of the person, although by extension there is a connection between the two.

[Fab Karen]

so i.e. what I was saying, COLLECTIVELY men are weak and are helpless without women. I doubt many men would agree with that statement. This was my point, while loosely using the term "reality."

[wanttobejoe]

Arrgh, in what world view is


Collectively, women are physically weaker than men.

equivalent with


so i.e. COLLECTIVELY women are weak and need men to do things.

It's things like this that totally piss me off. :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3:

[tvbeckytv]

i agree joe.. Karen could have a great career as a tabloid journalist with that kind of manipulation of words.

[Alan]

It's things like this that piss ME off, since I'm in applied mathematics.

Now. We're arguing my majors here, so I'd like everyone to listen very carefully for a moment.

One similar sounding sentence is NOT equal to another similar sounding sentence. One word off, and the STATISTICAL, SOCIOLOGICAL meaning is *radically* different.

Changing my sentence, collectively, women are physically weaker than men to collectively, women are weak and need men to do things is therefore a logical mishap. Not only is it a logical mishap but also a psychological one. All I said was women do not have the sheer muscle power of men. I said nothing about their ability or lack thereof to provide and care for themselves.

In fact, I believe very strongly that women are as good -- if not better -- than men when it comes to providing care. I grew up in a family of strong women, and I don't mean physically strong.

[Fab Karen]

One similar sounding sentence is NOT equal to another similar sounding sentence. One word off, and the STATISTICAL, SOCIOLOGICAL meaning is *radically* different.

Changing my sentence, collectively, women are physically weaker than men to collectively, women are weak and need men to do things is therefore a logical mishap. Not only is it a logical mishap but also a psychological one. All I said was women do not have the sheer muscle power of men. I said nothing about their ability or lack thereof to provide and care for themselves.

In fact, I believe very strongly that women are as good -- if not better -- than men when it comes to providing care. I grew up in a family of strong women, and I don't mean physically strong.
You & others completely missed where it says i.e. I was NOT quoting you or putting words in your mouth. I could as easily say i.e. collectively men are incapable of being compassionate, or collectively men are completely clueless about clothes. Collectively women are loving giving people. Collectively crossdressers wear womens clothing for sexual purposes. People are individuals, not a unified mass. You didn't grasp that I don't think that way. Let's not get into an absurd tangential debate about statistics. On the subject of sexism we agree.

[tvbeckytv]

didnt miss the "so i.e", saw it loud n clear. Which is precisely why you appeared to have taken what was said and twisted it beyond its original meaning.

i.e = that is to say, to explain or expand on.

[trannie T]

This same whiny thread comes along every few months. Yes, men wearing skirts are not really accepted by much of society while women can wear pants or skirts. Yes, this may be construed as discrimination against men. However, in most every other aspect of society women are the victims of discrimination. Women on average are paid far less than men, women have a more difficult time getting promotions. It is hard to look upon men as poor victims of society because we cannot wear a skirt in public while in most every other aspect of life it is women who are the victims.

[Alan]

You & others completely missed where it says i.e. I was NOT quoting you or putting words in your mouth. I could as easily say i.e. collectively men are incapable of being compassionate, or collectively men are completely clueless about clothes. Collectively women are loving giving people. Collectively crossdressers wear womens clothing for sexual purposes. People are individuals, not a unified mass. You didn't grasp that I don't think that way. Let's not get into an absurd tangential debate about statistics. On the subject of sexism we agree.

The ie is the biggest tip-off, actually.

You may not think that way, but SOCIETY does. And SOCIETY is the mark we use to measure sexism.

Actually, I'm not sure we agree on the subject of sexism, either.


This same whiny thread comes along every few months. Yes, men wearing skirts are not really accepted by much of society while women can wear pants or skirts. Yes, this may be construed as discrimination against men. However, in most every other aspect of society women are the victims of discrimination. Women on average are paid far less than men, women have a more difficult time getting promotions. It is hard to look upon men as poor victims of society because we cannot wear a skirt in public while in most every other aspect of life it is women who are the victims.

THANK YOU. Being stuck in a female body, I'm a VICTIM of aforementioned discrimination.

Men should grow up (And dogs should stop licking themselves. It's not gonna happen). More specifically, accept that if you're going to put on a skirt and make-up, you're... GOING TO GET THE SAME SH*T WOMEN DO. Men enjoy a world of privilege, and if they give it up to dress/act like women, don't whine about how it's sexist against men.

You're subject to the same sexism all women are subjected to. Yeah, it's unfair. Women have been saying that for centuries. Sexist against men it is NOT.

Carlin had some very good points on the differences between women and men when viewed from a societal point of view. My favorite one is:

In the Big Cosmic Cafeteria, as human beings move down the chow line of life and reach that section where the sh*t is being spooned out, women are given several extra portions. − George Carlin

[Sarah Doepner]

The basic issue is very deeply rooted in society. For a very long time it has been a successful model for men and women to take specific roles. Our species has grown and prospered and developed an expectation that those roles are part of a successful society. Any variation from that could be seen as a threat to survival. Threats to survival are very often met with very strong responses.
We are at a point in history where those traditional roles can be questioned and even broken. However, that knowledge hasn't crept into the genetic code yet, let alone into general socital acceptance. In-roads are being made, and in some places paved, but it is going to be rough going for a long time.
I think we need to continue to look for opportunities to demonstrate it isn't the end of civilization as we know it if a man wants to present himself as a woman or a woman wants to interact as a man. People have a tendency to become polarized and look at things in black and white rather than accept the shades of gray. It's so much simpler, but it makes accepting change difficult.
In the meantime, I'll look for a cute top to go with that new skirt of mine.

[Emily Anderson]

I'll repeat myself here, to get a word in between the rants!!!

It has nothing to do with sexism. It's all about behaviour, or appearance.
The same has been true of punks, goths and many others who have shown themseleves to be different from what is expected. How does that make it sexist in any way?

[Alan]

Hey, I'm saying society is sexist when it comes to women.

I don't see how being against CD-ing is sexist EITHER.

If it is, it's because dresses etc are a female thing.

[Fab Karen]

You may not think that way, but SOCIETY does. And SOCIETY is the mark we use to measure sexism.


As I said before, I'm not society. & only part of society thinks that way. Individuals are responsible for how they treat others.

[tvbeckytv]

If it is, it's because dresses etc are a female thing.

hmmm, thats just a little playing the victim isnt it?
I dont agree that the discimination against cross dressing is a sexist thing, but i dont either agree that society is discriminating against women per se. Some aspect discriminate against women, some discriminate against men. yes, really, men are disciminated against, not just in a social sense, but institutionally. In my country healthcare research, education, retirement age, child care are just to name a few. If you think of yourself as a victim, you are a victim. or, you can just realise life aint perfect and decide not to feel persecuted

[Alan]

I don't feel persecuted, thank you very much. I happen to think that *I* am in control of the image I present to the world, and if that image is that of a ballbuster, I have to accept the crap I get for it.

However, to say that women aren't discriminated against is taking a very narrow view of the world. If you would glance back at the previous post, you will notice that many of us have provided numerous examples of said discrimination.

We could give further examples, but I rather suspect if what we've already said doesn't make you see said discrimination, given more and more examples is pointless.

Men are discriminated against... by other men. Men bought the okeydoke, now they get to deal with it.

A long time ago, men gave away their power. To other men: princes, kings, wizards, generals and high priests. They gave it away, because they believed what these other men told them. They bought the okeydoke. The bullshit. Men always buy the okeydoke when it comes from other men. − George Carlin

[tvbeckytv]

However, to say that women aren't discriminated against is taking a very narrow view of the world. If you would glance back at the previous post, you will notice that many of us have provided numerous examples of said discrimination.

We could give further examples, but I rather suspect if what we've already said doesn't make you see said discrimination, given more and more examples is pointless.



you seem pretty adept at twisting what someone says yourself when it suits you. bravo.

[Alan]

you seem pretty adept at twisting what someone says yourself when it suits you. bravo.

/eyebrow raise. Twisting?

I don't twist. Nice try, though. /hands over consolation prize.

/leaves thread entirely.

[Deborah Jane]

Well i for one would give up all my so called male rights so i could live as myself!!
The way things stand at the moment...Society sucks!!:Angry3:

[Jennifer Giovannetta]

After reading Valerie's post, it occurs to me that I feel the same way. Women and men have to adhere to different rules of society as far as clothing is concerned. For instance, women can wear mens clothing in public and not get a second look. It is accepted. If a man were to wear women's clothing in public, especially if they do not pass as a woman, they face ridicule, harassment and possible violence. Now I know that this can occur to a FTM cross-dresser as well. But it is much more prevalent for MTF cross-dressers.
Putting aside all of the inequalities of men and women. The fact that society does not accept me wearing women's clothing in public, and women have more flexibility is what pisses me off. I know. Some of you may say to me just go out dressed. To a degree I understand where they are coming from, and I have been out dressed. But only to places that are TG friendly. I do not think that I pass well. So I do not go out in the general public dressed.
It seems that Transgendered people are making some progress as far as acceptance is concerned. Some laws have been passed that protect us. But we have a long way to go. Unfortunately I may not be around to see total acceptance of Transgendered people.
If it was up to me anyone can wear whatever they wanted without fear.

[Laura_Stephens]

Hey, I'm saying society is sexist when it comes to women.

I don't see how being against CD-ing is sexist EITHER.

If it is, it's because dresses etc are a female thing.

Alan, many men treat women as second class citizens. However, not all of us do. I would venture a guess that most of the genetically-based men here place women on somewhat of a pedestal -- I know I do.

[Empress Lainie]

I never felt any sex discrimination until I became myself, a woman born with a male body (more or less).

Then I was persecuted solely because I was transgendered.

To date this has cost me over $20,000.

When I was an employer and was hiring, I practiced discrimination of a sort, all things I would take the women every time, since they did not cause as much disruption, in nicer words.

And I confess, I NEVER liked men in general.

[Alan]

Alan, many men treat women as second class citizens. However, not all of us do. I would venture a guess that most of the genetically-based men here place women on somewhat of a pedestal -- I know I do.

I'm de-leaving the thread. Yes, I know many men place women on a pedestal, including the men in my family (which would include me... intriguing. I've never thought about that. Never mind). I think the major problem people here have with what I'm saying is that I generalize/extrapolate into a societal total, which, unfortunately, comes from the fact that I am studying to be an applied mathematician. My job will basically BE to see things from a societal stand-point constantly. I have always seen things like this; it's the way I view things. I know that most people prefer to see things individually and that it annoys them when I talk about society as a whole.

However, we live in society as a whole, which is why I always think it's important to DISCUSS society as a whole.

I have nothing against individual cases.... I just dislike mentioning them solely. And enough people are talking about the individual cases that I can focus on the societal.


I never felt any sex discrimination until I became myself, a woman born with a male body (more or less).

Then I was persecuted solely because I was transgendered.

To date this has cost me over $20,000.

When I was an employer and was hiring, I practiced discrimination of a sort, all things I would take the women every time, since they did not cause as much disruption, in nicer words.

And I confess, I NEVER liked men in general.


I think trans people get the worst of all worlds. Either they're treated like the gender they don't feel they are (god, I can't TELL you how much I hate it when people say 'she', [female name], or 'ma'am/miss' to me), or, they're given sh*t for wanting to be the other gender.

[Empress Lainie]

And meeting transmen like you Alan I have come to realize that they and you are like me except on the opposite sex end, I hate to be called sird (actually never happened but once since I transitioned and he only heard me, not looked at me.)

I also didn't realize how passionate they were in their insistence and knowledge that they are MALE, NOT FEMALE, in spite of their bodies, like me except opposite.

With the ones I talked with last night: they played with the boys until they were forbidden, I played with the girls. And so on.

[curse within]

I'm just gonna tip toe backwards out of this thread.

[Alan]

And meeting transmen like you Alan I have come to realize that they and you are like me except on the opposite sex end, I hate to be called sird (actually never happened but once since I transitioned and he only heard me, not looked at me.)

I also didn't realize how passionate they were in their insistence and knowledge that they are MALE, NOT FEMALE, in spite of their bodies, like me except opposite.

With the ones I talked with last night: they played with the boys until they were forbidden, I played with the girls. And so on.

We really are just on the opposite sex end. We're not strange creatures or anything.

I'm glad you've realized this :D And that I could help with this. /dances.

[Delila]

I have to say I think a lot of the issues with crossdressers going out in public are mostly in the cders mind. I have been in a crowded mall and seen a cder that clearly did not pass and not one person gave her a second look. If you feel as though being treated exactly like a woman when dressed like one for you job then a signifigantly lower salary would likely be your reward. Women are still discriminated against it is just more subtle now I guess it is just a perk to get to wear all of those great outfits ;)

[Satrana]

To get back to the original issue asked - is discrimination against CDs sexist in nature? The answer is most assuredly YES. The same ignorance and prejudices that women have had to battle against have been well documented and these underlying attitudes that support inequality are exactly the same that MTF CDs face today.

We face discrimination because we question the "natural order" of a gender driven society. Our crossdressing is interpreted not as a simple statement of self-expression but as being something else, dangerous, subversive, anti-social and anti-family. There is an assumption of "wrongness" when men crossdress, something which women used to face during the earlier years of the feminist crusade.

Feminism has highlighted the prejudices that women face and has gone a long way in reversing or subduing the wrongs that flow from that prejudice. However, CDing remains in the dark which means anyone can openly attack and mock CDs without fear that they themselves will be considered offensive or prejudiced.

The lack of social condemnation for being openly prejudiced against CDs means some people feel they have the right to demand we stop or hide our crossdressing or demand we stick to our "correct" masculine personas so as not to hurt the feelings of the prejudiced.

The CD community should be more open to addressing the issue of discrimination and properly calling it for what it is - sexism - and not feel the need to be apologetic to those individuals who discriminate against us. And that is true of men AND women alike. Sexism is not gender based.

With regards to the reasons why crossdressing is seen as being abhorrent it is all about the perceived reasons for doing it. We all know the automatic assumption that it is a homosexual practice, but beyond that people assume crossdressing means there should be an adjustment on social status. When a woman adopts masculine attributes, this is seen as an attempt to empower herself and increase her social standing. When a man uses feminine attributes, this is seen as an attempt to dis-empower himself and decrease his social status. In a competitive world, deliberately choosing to lose social standing does not make sense thus the assumption that sexual perversion must be driving the CD behavior.

Crossdressing can be used as a social power tool but the ignorant and prejudiced wrongly assumed that it is always a power game and ignore an individual's right to self-expression as the more likely reason.

[valenstein]

Discrimination against crossdressers is also discrimination against women.


I would say that's true to a point, but it not every person's perception of who they are discriminating against is the same. I have had a genetic woman snicker at me under her breath when I was buying women's clothes. From her viewpoint, I believe she made that discrimination towards a man.

You don't have to read too many posts here to find that a majority of genetic women would find it distasteful on some level. People discriminate amongst themselves constantly. If you substitute the word "persecution", I don't think that statement would hold true to all genders from all viewpoints.

I have watched TV shows with my "gaydar" on, picking out who was gay or who was straight. I was discriminating (at first) solely on how they were dressed. I have no intention of persecuting them or treating them any differently. Every single person on the planet has put someone else into a mental category at one time or another based on how they were dressed, for better or worse. I've rarely worn men's clothes to work in the last year, but I don't wear makeup or skirts or dresses or bras to work. If anything, guys have asked me where I got the cool pants. Standing there in the same clothes they've seen me in all year, if I said , "I'm a crossdresser, got 'em in the women's dept.". Snap! Their entire perception of me would change.

A lot of women were locked up, disowned and killed to earn the right to vote, to wear pants, and to have retribution against abuse and rape. The same with the Gay and Lesbian community. The same with any group of people that were different than the "reigning majority". Even legislation will only provide retribution after the fact.

Tangent: Take any organized sport: People from country A rally and cheer against country B, but when two cities from country A play each other, those same people will swear and degrade and attack each other because they are not "the same", even though they are on a bigger scale.

I'm off the subject, but that's my two cents.

[CaptLex]

I'm just gonna tip toe backwards out of this thread.
Why? :confused:

[Bev06 GG]

This same whiny thread comes along every few months. Yes, men wearing skirts are not really accepted by much of society while women can wear pants or skirts. Yes, this may be construed as discrimination against men. However, in most every other aspect of society women are the victims of discrimination. Women on average are paid far less than men, women have a more difficult time getting promotions. It is hard to look upon men as poor victims of society because we cannot wear a skirt in public while in most every other aspect of life it is women who are the victims.

OMG Trannie are you married. I bet you are, nobody could resist a Cd with that kind of attitude.
Love ya
Bev

[Empress Lainie]

We really are just on the opposite sex end. We're not strange creatures or anything.

I'm glad you've realized this :D And that I could help with this. /dances.

And how much I would love it if YOU could actually dance with me. Than k you Alan.

[Alan]

And how much I would love it if YOU could actually dance with me. Than k you Alan.

May I have this dance, ma'am? /sketches a bow.

Okay, okay, I stop the off-topicness.