How many . . . ?

[DonnaT]

Seriously, how many here would out a CDing friend to others?

[Sharon]

I hope it turns out to be zero.

Is there a reason behind this thread?

[TommiTN]

Seriously, how many here would out a CDing friend to others?

Unequivocally NEVER! To CD or not to CD is a most personal affair. If that person wants to come out that choice should be hers and hers alone. For someone else to out her is a violation of her individual prerogative and, in the case of a friend outing her, a violation of a sacred trust, IMHO.

[Amy Hepker]

This is a hard question, because yes, I would tell other CDs, but I would not tell other people who are not. So, I am unsure of how to vote.

[suzy cool]

Some folk just can't keep a secret even when they have the same one.
Would I? I would hope not.

[Lidia_tv]

No. As simple as that.

[renee k]

No, Just a professional courtesy.

Huggs,Renee

[Ruth]

Why would you ask this? Bad experience?
The answer is no anyway.

[Cassiemarie]

Absolutely, Unequivically------no Way

[Tomara]

No Absolutely not

[KimberlyS]

No i would not and have caught myself almost saying someones real name to others that did not know their male name. But interestingly I have had other CDers give out my wifes and my real names, city I lived in and other personal details about us to people that did not already know. I even have had my male name and town I lived in posted. And I live in a small town where with a few details you could know who I am. It is like when some CD/TGs are around other CD/TG's they do not think. And some of the ones that are out or part way out can be the worse. It is like they do not care about others finding out about them so they treat your information the same way. Sorry any personal information should only be given out by the CD or with permission. I will not even give out a femme email address without permission.

And I do not care about the affects of being outed on myself, it is my wife and kids that should not have to suffer because someone else outed me. At times it makes me want to crawl back in a hole and believe I am the only one and not interact with other CD/TG/TS's.

[Wendy me]

Donna no.............. no way...... see that i could not do how ever one might find out that a Friend is a cross dresser is not important .... what is important is trust and respect ... the person has a right to tell or not tell whom ever they might want to tell or not tell ...........

[KimberlyS]

This is a hard question, because yes, I would tell other CDs, but I would not tell other people who are not.

Amy, what gives you the right to out another CDer even to another CDer without permission?? :thumbsdn: :Angry3: Talk about why many of us are afraid to tell anyone anything.

[Daintre]

Absolutely NOT, a person's privacy is paramount. If he wanted others to know, he would tell them, it isn't our place to do that.

[DonnaT]

I hope it turns out to be zero.

Is there a reason behind this thread?

http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86756

[Niya W]

First rule of fight club. Never talk about fight club.

Great way to me excommunicated . I believe there is a ritual ceremony for this

[Tina Dixon]

I can hold a secret especially some thing this big.

[MJ]

never it's not my place. Just a professional courtesy as well .

[Krystyn]

NO....It's just good Karma not to.

[DawnRodgers]

I'd be amazed if anybody here would do that. That's so wrong.
Dawn

[Dragster]

I'm glad to see that there are no YES votes so far, we seem to be an honourable lot, or at least we say we are! What on earth would be the motive to out a sister anyway?

Tony

[StephanieF]

The question is contradictory. A friend wouldn't.

[TGMarla]

You're asking this crowd? Not a sample reflective of the general public, I think.

[Joy Carter]

That would come under the heading of gossip. And gossiping has a way of coming back and biting you. So no, that's a private thing, I'd not tell.

[Jordan]

why would we that would be wrong

[trannie T]

I love to gossip. I can also keep a secret. If I learn something in confidence my lips are sealed forever. Someone who does something really stupid is fair game for gossip, someone who dresses at home or with a support group is not.

[Samantha43]

NO WAY!

I'm glad this survey is turning out like it should.

[Keely]

Yikes, how could anyone say yes?

[jennifer41356]

:sw::strugglin

[Heather_Marie]

No I would never do that.

[christid66]

I would never.....and I hope that no one would ever out me.

Seems to contradict the meaning of friendship

[Cary]

I just think that would be wrong.I wouldn't want someone to out me. Why would I do that to someone else?:Angry3: I believe you reap what you sow.

[Kendra (Tx)]

NO WAY, NO HOW!!..There are too many things that would result from being outed..Loss of friends, jobs, family and those are just the few right off the bat...I couldn't concieve of a reason where I'd do something like that, even to someone I had issues with...I woudn't do it...and I hope that it woudn't happen to me..

http://kendra954.com

[Karren H]

Well if and only if there were a reward or something... or maybe if it's "out a pervert week" at work!!!

hahahahaha

Of coarse not!!!!

[Dawn Marie]

NO!!! not in a million years.

[Patty]

No---NO Way

[heidi99]

Absolutely not. Nope. Wouldn't even think of it in a million years.

Most of the folks here are aware of how society views us (society is changing, albeit slowly.) Combine that with the golden rule, and I can't think of a single reason why I would do this to another human being. Also goes against living an honorable life.

Give that person support. That would be the more likely action. :2c:

[Karen C]

i would never out anyone that is there thing to do not mine . its hard enough to come out yourself . but to be outed by someone else is mean to say the least .

[suzym4u]

NO WAY. The thought of doing so would never cross my mind.

[Denise01]

No Way:

I would never do to anyone something that I would not want done to me.

I am like the 3 monkeys:

See Nothing

Hear Nothing

Know Nothing

Denise

[SarahLynn]

Well now i've thought about it and yes i would out a sister c/d. I'd tell her and i'd tell him.:heehee::heehee: I mean really, arn't those the two people who need to know???? :brolleyes:

Ohhh wait you mean to someone else. Well in that case, nope, wouldn't tell a soul not even her. I might tell her she's been made and she might as well go on in the resturant and have a meal, but i'd not tell the wait-staff she was a c/d.

SarahLynn

[CD Susan]

I do not even understand how anyone who is a cd could ask this question!!!! Would a 'cd friend' out someone else without thier approval? I don't think so! Friends don't do this to each other!!!!!!!

[PhillyGuy2Girl]

No way in H E double toothpick would I ever do that. I prefer to keep my CDing just between my wife and myself and I would never want someone to just out me like that. I'm always a forgiving person, but if someone ever did that to me,I would never forgive them and they would lose a good and true friend. It would be their lost,no skin off my nose ,honey.

Felicity :)

[crusadergirl]

Yeah i would tell everybody i know. Just kidding i don't tell ppl my friends secrets that would be wrong. So the Real answer is No.

[Dixie]

Uh, like no way! I am not about to mess around with Carmen (karma) like that, she can be a real______ sometimes!:thumbsdn::drink:

[NoraTV]

How would you like to be outed to someone against your will?

[Sarah...]

No!

[sterling12]

I'm so glad that no one has said yes. Even if insulted, even if abused, even if I were "outed" by someone and wanted to do it for retaliation; there is no way, no how, I could justify such an act.

I'm probably being a bit selfish. If I did something like that, I would eventually have to look in a mirror. It would be a matter of preserving my own soul! Don't think I could live with myself.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Rachaelb64]

My ex-wife has tried that with me. So my answers is no, I couldn't be that cruel and heartless.

[priscellia]

Dear Donna T,
Dressing is a private matter and one should respect privacy.
Even so it is great fun to cross dress and be enfemm:hugs:Priscellia

[suspender]

The key word was friend. Thats the way I would want to keep it.

[deja true]

I know nussink!

[DeeDeeB]

No way. Being trustworthy is one of my cardinal rules.

I am sad to announce that someone, who evidently did not post a reply, has voted yes at this point. :Angry3: I hope they somehow misunderstood the question.

Dee

[Juanita O]

no no hell no

[Nadia-Maria]

It remembers me another very intelligent question :
"Are you dishonest ?".

The NO won with 99.999 %, a dictatorial score.

Kisses

Nadia

[KarenSusan]

I can't imagine a scenario where I would out anyone.

[Suzy Harrison]

Never - even if we fell out and hated each other.

[battybattybats]

I voted no...
However there would be a possible exception.

If a CD I knew, even a friend, was in a position of power and involved in making choices that harmed CD rights, like voting for anti-transgender legislation or if said person was recently involved in the harrassment, bullying or assault of another transgender person to help keep their cover.

In that set of circumstances they lose their right to my silence by abusing the rights of others.

It's also worth bearing in mind that genuine accidents do happen, it's the risk of shared secrets, some aren't as skilled at keeping them as others.

I would only choose to out another CD if they were directly complicit in the harming of other transgender people (and, grant you someone could be caught up in a piece of group violence and be too scared at the time to intercede... not everyone can be heroes... but then I'd ensure they went to the police as a witness or out they go!) or put themselves in a position of power and authority and then contributed directly and knowingly to transphobia or anti-transgender discrimination.

The outing of Ted Haggard was for example a very moral act.

[Kimberly Marie]

No way....would never do that to a friend. I take friendship seriuosly and is important to me. It is a pleasure and a honor to have friends.

[Tamara Croft]

:OMG: I can't believe that someone voted 'yes'... infact, shame on you Linda3, dang newbies, who haven't posted, but will vote on polls just because you think you're anonymous? well think again, YOU'RE NOT!!! You should be ashamed of yourself... :Angry3:

[Angela-Russell]

Definitely a big NO! I'd be horrified if it happened to me. I'm glad the culprit who voted yes has been revealed. Disgraceful behavior........

[Shelly Preston]

Linda3,

Please remind me not to tell you any of my details

I assume you have no idea of the devastation you could cause by your actions :Angry3:

Loss of employment, divorce, refused access to your own children

When you have sat and talked someone out of Suicide because of being outed

I would like to see how you would have voted then

Tell me please why you think outing someone is a good idea

[Sandra]

Linda3,

I just hope it never happens to you.

What people do is their own business and it's not up to anyone to go telling others.

[DonnaT]

Thanks for all the responses.

I simply wanted to show that, although everyone's intentions were good when addressing Stevie B's thread at http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86756 the poll shows that it's quite doubtful that Stevie's CDing friend would out her as some appear to have implied.

Only my opinion, of course.

I could be wrong, I guess, if that friend is Linda3 ;) (who was a troll, apparently).

[VeronicaH]

NO!!!! I can't believe someone said yes.

[bimini1]

If a friend of mine CD'd and told me about it, I would love to be able to tell her about me. If she was in the closet like me I do not think she would share the info. It seems like we'd be able to offer mutual support to each other.

There is just no way I'd breach someone's trust like that knowing how I'd feel it they did it to me , no way.

[rachellenicole]

Not only NO.... But Hell No!!!!!

Rach

[Jonianne]

My ex-wife has tried that with me. So my answers is no, I couldn't be that cruel and heartless.

Same here Rachael.

One of my biggest desires in relationships is to be someone others can trust. I would not out someone even if they outed me. Period.

[Genifer Teal]

Everyone who said no FAILED the test. :eek: Did anyone actually read the question? It said "how many WOULD". It is typical that everyone chimes in anyway to say they wouldn't. The same thing happens when I try to plan an event. 10 people respond immediately to say they can't make it when all I asked is who could make it. With that said, I will not post my answer. I think you know how I feel.

Gen

[Tara LaBelle]

No way. I wouldn't consider myself a 'friend' to anyone I did that to

[Jonianne]

Everyone who said no FAILED the test. :eek: Did anyone actually read the question? It said "how many WOULD". It is typical that everyone chimes in anyway to say they wouldn't. The same thing happens when I try to plan an event. 10 people respond immediately to say they can't make it when all I asked is who could make it. With that said, I will not post my answer. I think you know how I feel.

Gen

Gen, the poll question is:


Would you out a CDing friend to others?

[Niya W]

Everyone who said no FAILED the test. :eek: Did anyone actually read the question? It said "how many WOULD". It is typical that everyone chimes in anyway to say they wouldn't. The same thing happens when I try to plan an event. 10 people respond immediately to say they can't make it when all I asked is who could make it. With that said, I will not post my answer. I think you know how I feel.

Gen
Funny thing, I had a boss asked who had HP certs. Since I didn't I didn't respond .She got pissed that I didnt answer her Email

[Stephanie32]

This posting has stirred a lot of emotion. Allow me to offer a new dynamic that may cause some people to rethink.

What if you meet a CD who is a politician or famous person and whose positions you vehemently disagree with, and possibly despise that individual. Compound that with the potential of destroying that politician and getting some money for it.

Would anybody be brave enough to admit that would be tempting?

[AmandaM]

Hell no, my old boss is a CDer, he doesn't know I know. I could have seriously paid him back once when he pissed me off.

[Nicki B]

I wouldn't out an enemy, or a friend? What goes around, comes around..

[Maria2222]

For a CD to out another CD would have to be one of the most horrible betrayals I could imagine. I hope I never have the misfortune to meet someone who's character is so low that they could do that.

[Chronos]

I wouldn't even dream of doing that. :eek:

[Sheri 4242]

Even if insulted, even if abused, even if I were "outed" by someone and wanted to do it for retaliation; there is no way, no how, I could justify such an act.

I'm probably being a bit selfish. If I did something like that, I would eventually have to look in a mirror. It would be a matter of preserving my own soul! Don't think I could live with myself.

Peace and Love, Joanie

Ditto! Well said!

[AmandaM]

Well, I would probably out someone who outed me. I think that's a line I'd be willing to cross. Just call me Johnny Fairplay!

[battybattybats]

Big but really important post. If you give a damn about the right and wrong of this please read on.

Now... someone voted yes presumably thinking they'd be anonymous and was outed as having done so for having done so in this discussion.

Morality: outing them for doing so protects those here from disclosing details to that person and risking being outed. It protects the group at the expense of the individual.

Counter morality: outing people as CDs forces them to be honest with the world, their families, their communities and our visibility helps us as a group become accepted while putting individuals at greater risk in the short-term.

Ethics: While the person should have been aware that there was no gauarantee of anonymity by reading all appropriate policies it is true that most humans don't, making any policy based on the assumption that everyone will read, memorise and successfully remember it or will check it before doing anything not just unrealistic but practically unfair as well as discriminatory to those with attention defacit or memory disabilities itself rather unethical and invalid. (yes I know this makes much of the legal system unethical but the fact is much of the legal system does neccessarily discriminate against large portions of the population and is in fact quite unethical but less so than other current alternatives)

Further Ethics: Idealism: If outing something someone wants secret or could be presumed to probably want as secret is wrong then it is wrong whether the motivation in doing so is good or bad. Therefore outing the voter is as bad as outing a Cd.

Further Ethics: Utilitarianism: The greatest good for the greatest number. If harming the voter causes good to a significant number of people by keeping their secrets safe then it is good. If outing a single CD helps most CDs then it is good. If beating a CD to death helps enough cisgendered people who find CDs uncomfortable to be around then it is good (see why I think utilitarianism is a load of crap!). However if adapting to CDs, a short-term social pain for a greater number of people than CD is considered better than executing every generstion of TG people or oppressing them into hiding, a long-term amount of suffering, then the suffering of those who dislike CDs is best (a utilitarianism seems reasonable there again now doesn't it). However! If outing CDs, especially those who are celebrities, authorities etc has a chance of increasing the public adaptation then it is for the greatest long-term good and is the most right thing to do! (Utilitarianism is crap!)

Further Ethics: Egalitarianism: All people should be treated equal. To be equal all people require substantial rights/freedoms bordered only by the need to respect others rights/freedoms. crucial to those freedoms is consent. A person must give consent, informed and uncoerced to any activity. So then does the CD give consent to do whatever they other person wants with information imparted to them? The person told a CDs secret is done so often under a contractual obligation of secrecy. Even if not stated overtly this can be argued would be assumed in any society/community where possible negative consequences await disclosure unless the thing being disclosed violate/d/s anothers rights (such as the guilt of a murder etc) where instead the responsibility to the others rights takes precedence. Therfore confidances must be kept unless the thing confided was/is/will be violating anothers rights/freedoms.

Now the voter may be said to have given consent when signing up. But was that consent informed and uncoerced? This would make a fascinating legal case. They read the rules, or were supposed to before joining up. However, it's common practice for many people to skim them, lengthy or hard to remember rules can be discriminatory to disabled people with even mild memory or attention impairment, even ordinary people can have memory lapses about them.

Therefore by this school of Ethics outing a CD is definately wrong as CDing does not violate the freedoms of others and the outing of the voter is quite probably wrong as it can be reasonably supposed that the voter had forgotten that the vote was not necessarily anonymous.

Further Ethics: Consequentialism: The wrongness of an act depends on it's severity. Stealing a cookie is rather insignificant, stealling a billion dollers is very much worse (under idealism both are stealing therefore both equally bad). Killing a deadly snake near a home is good or at least excusable, killing a mosquito possibly good as it could carry disease, killing a fly less so, killing a snail not near the garden slightly bad, killing a pet bad, killing a person very bad, killing an entire race of people extremely bad, destroying all life on Earth as bad as one can get.

Now for this one outing someone in an accepting place and/or to an accepting person might be against their wishes but for their own benefit. Doing so in a less so is less so and where they are likel to be assaulted is very bad indeed. Outing the voter depends on how people will react to them... probably not so good. Do they have many friends here already? Unlikely but possible. Do they have alternative places to go? There are other sites if they can find them. Is the person likely to be very hurt? With the rates of depression and suivide amongst many Cd's they could well take it badly indeed, but then so could an outed person even when outed to accepting people.

Conclusion: While I could go on through the many others philosophies of Ethics it's still true that in many of them outing the voter will be as wrong as outing a Cder for the same reasons. There are relativistic arguments that could be made in each school but for idealism of course.

Motivation for not waning to be outed as a CD is important, as is why the person may have chosen to vote the way they did. Whatif they missread the question? What is they have dyslexia or some other disability? what if they just plain missclicked?

How much harm does the voter suffer by being outed? Possible social ostracism in this community.. that's not insignificant, but is it greater or lesser than the harm that person might do if they outed another CD? Does it matter in what circumstances they might have done so or not done so? Did they vote that way as a joke, a missclick? Do they mind people knowing they voted thst way?

There's the biggest stone in the shoe of utilitarianism and other relativist positions, the weighing of harm and comparing it and the assumptions required for peoples actions as well as their reactions.

Also it's worth everyone noting that there is not one way of determining right and wrong. Depending on the foundation idea, ideals, utility, equality, order and many others that then determines whether an act is right or wrong and both actions of outing will be right or wrong seperately or together depending on which foundation one builds on.

This post is not judging anyone or criticising anyones choices or decisions. It merely is to educate people on the deeper aspects of making decisions on what is right and what is wrong. It is by no means complete on possible philosophically legitimate ways of looking at the issue either!

:hugs: