My Daughter Rosie

[Bev06 GG]

Hi fellas,
Did any of you see that programme on the TV about whether or not you were born Gay or whether it was down to nurture. It was very very interesting and got me thinking.

I have a 12 year old daughter Rosie, who from a very young age has idolised one of her brothers and used to wear his clothes. She has always said she wished she was a boy (nothing unusual there because I used to say that and many girls do) and refuses to wear anything remotely girly. She has her hair cut short and to all intense and purposes resembles a boy. We have given up explaining to people in shops etc who call her son that she is infact a girl and Rosie is quite thrilled to be mistaken for a lad. BTW I know that Cross dressers are not necessarily Gay I am just using the programme as an example of nature or nurture.

I have always been very criticised by family and friends for pampering to her whims in as much as I have bought her boys clothes, shoes, footballs etc. Indeed her bedroom looks like a boys. But my stance on it has always been she is her own person and she alone should be allowed to make up her own mind as to her gender identity and not be encouraged to conform for the sake of other peoples prejudices.

The programme last night did get me thinking though as to whether my encouragement is largely responsible for how she is and if I had insisted on her being more girly she would have turned out differently.

Dont get me wrong, I have no regrets, she is a lovely person and very popular with everyone I wouldn't change anything about her because she is a real character full of energy and a joy to be around. She has struggled a tad at secondary school but she is slowly winning people round because she is adamant that she isn't going to change for anyone least of all her peers and most people seem to respect her for that.

I would be more than interested in knowing what some of you went through as a child and when you realised you were not conforming to what society perceivedto be the norm. Did your parents realise and were they supportive or did you have a hard time.
Take care
Bev

[Kieron Andrew]

she sounds alot like i was, wearing boys clothes as much as i could get away with, loving every second i could do if i was taken as a boy, and look where that got me lol...living fulltime male..

my parents were never supportive of my transition and to this day dont really acknowledge it....

[ZenFrost]

As far as the nature vs. nurture debate about TG people, I do not believe it. The reason being that though some TG people have has supported families and some have had families that were very unsupportive yet are still TG.

I think that if you'd tried to force her to be girly when she wasn't she may have grown to resent you for it.

I don't know if my childhood would be a good example to go by, because I played with dolls as much as trucks and most of the 'not conforming to "normality"' stemmed from something else altogether. :idontknow:

[Kieron Andrew]

As far as the nature vs. nurture debate about TG people, I do not believe it. The reason being that though some TG people have has supported families and some have had families that were very unsupportive yet are still TG.

Thats a very good point Zen, i too do not believe in said debate...

[CaptLex]

Bev, I applaud you for being cool about it all. It's so hard when parents come down on us for silly things like the length of our hair or not wanting to wear dresses (usually because of what the neighbors will think :rolleyes:), instead of emphasizing the important things like staying away from drugs and getting an education. It's just clothes. It's just hair. It's the person inside that counts.

No my parents weren't accepting of my differences (still aren't) and at a very early age I learned the lesson that if I was going to be myself, I was going to have to fight them on that all the way and I was going to have to live without their approval because there was no convincing them.

I disagree that you're pampering her. Your acceptance can only make her feel loved and supported - and ready to take on anyone who has something to say about it. If our own parents don't accept us, we know the rest of the world is going to be an uphill struggle.

You deserve a :hugs: a :love: and a :drink:

[Bev06 GG]

Thank you CaptLex,
But to be honest all I have done is love her for who she is. Of course I have concerns because it isn' an easy world to live in at the best of times without being different. You always wonder how your kids will fare when your not around to fight their corner, not that rosie needs me to. But my concerns are nothing to do with her gender or her sense of identity. Rosie is rosie and a real character at that.
My partner and I were having a bit of a laugh today actually because when you think about it the odds of getting a partner and a daughter who like to CD have got to be extremely low.
Any way thank you guys for your encouraging comments I really appreciate it.
Take care
Bev

[Tamara Croft]

Bev, you're a great mum, and it has bugger all to do with anyone else how you raise your daughter. Believe me, when kids want to wear what they want, they will and there isn't anything you can do about it ;) My daughter was like that right up until she started seniors and was like that from being really little ;) She however has changed, but had she wanted to dress/be/act w/e like a boy/lad, that would have been her decision and I would have accepted that :)

Your daughter will grow up with so much respect for others, the way they dress etc and you have yourself to pat on the back for raising her with a great attitude :)

[Bev06 GG]

Aww thanks Tamara,
I have to say when receiving criticism, (which doesn't really bother me that much) I do have to smile to myself and wonder what the hell they would think if they knew about Jay too.
I too was a real tom boy right up to the age of 11. I didn't however insist on wearing vests and underpants which is something that rosie has always persisted with, I was ok with knickers.
Take care
Bev

[Kieron Andrew]

I didn't however insist on wearing vests and underpants which is something that rosie has always persisted with, I was ok with knickers.
Take care
Bev

Bev, can i ask what do you think you would do if she decides she really is a boy and wants to transition?, because this sounds familiar territory how lot of us start out at that age, well i know i did, ive worn boxers for years...even when i was still school age and having to wear girls school uniform, sorry if this is too personal to ask

[Alan]

My parents didn't care that I was going around in guys' clothes and that I kept my hair extremely short (they did, however, convince me to pierce my ears because it made me more feminine. I stopped wearing earrings after I accepted myself, and my piercings have closed over).

And I resented like hell being forced into a dress for more special occasions -- I can only imagine how hateful I'd be now, if I spent my entire life forced to wear dresses when I felt all wrong in them. Your child's wish to dress like that would've been there regardless of whether or not you let her. It's a sign of good parenting that you didn't force her to follow a gender-oriented clothing style.

[Bev06 GG]

Hi Kieron,
Thats a question I asked myself about 5 years ago when Rosie was adamanat that she wanted to be a boy, and the simple answer is I would want to make sure that she was absolutley certain. If I am honest I would prefer her to wait until she was older and live her life as a boy/man for a while before she decided to do anything that involved surgery.
This is only because I have two male friends who transitioned and then regretted it and as a consequence on of them suffered depression big time. I would want Rosie to be completely happy with the road she was taking and as certain as she could be that it was the right one for her.
That said if she still wanted to I would support her all the way. I obviously want what is best for Rosie and want her to be happy and comfortable with her sexuality. There is no way that anyone on this earth should have to go through something as traumatic as a gender change without the help and support of those he or she loves. Not something that I would find particularly easy though Kieron but then the option not to support her would be even more difficult if not impossible.
Bev

[Kieron Andrew]

Hi Kieron,
Thats a question I asked myself about 5 years ago when Rosie was adamanat that she wanted to be a boy, and the simple answer is I would want to make sure that she was absolutley certain. If I am honest I would prefer her to wait until she was older and live her life as a boy/man for a while before she decided to do anything that involved surgery.
This is only because I have two male friends who transitioned and then regretted it and as a consequence on of them suffered depression big time. I would want Rosie to be completely happy with the road she was taking and as certain as she could be that it was the right one for her.
That said if she still wanted to I would support her all the way. I obviously want what is best for Rosie and want her to be happy and comfortable with her sexuality. There is no way that anyone on this earth should have to go through something as traumatic as a gender change without the help and support of those he or she loves. Not something that I would find particularly easy though Kieron but then the option not to support her would be even more difficult if not impossible.
Bev
:hugs: Thanks for answering so loving and truthful Bev

[Cai]

Bev, you sound like you've done everything absolutely correct.

I was always fairly tomboyish, well into high school. At that point my mother did start to push me to be more feminine, I did it because it was expected of me, and I do resent her for it. I still can't be myself around her, and it's a big communication issue between the two of us. I'd hate to see your relationship with your daughter go the same way my relationship with my mother has gone.

I do have to echo Kieron in that Rosie insisting she wants to be a boy and being thrilled at being mistaken for a boy sounds extremely familiar. There are lots of tomboys who are still very much girls, and like to be seen as girls - wanting to be seen as a boy is a whole other level.

[Majestyk's Lady]

Hi Bev...
First off, it is really nice to read about someone can love their child unconditionally...no strings attached..no ifs, ands or buts...Rosie is very lucky indeed to have chosen you for her Mama...allow her to be her own "self"..it's not the outside "package" that's the important priority..it's how she feels inside..safe,secure and able to love herself and not have to try to "live" up to another person's extreme expectations.
I too idolised my brother when I was growing up (I'm younger by 4 years..)..whenever I wanted to have something that was "just like he got"..I was told I was being selfish..twasn't true..I wanted to be like him because he was my big brother..he got the more positive attention and my mom seemed to like him better..:sad:
My Mom always tried to make me into a "girl"..can't really fault her on that..I was one after all..just not quite able to live up to her expectations..dressing me in"pink" constantly..I really like the color..(just won't ever wear it on me back then or now..oh the "fights"..)..always in dresses..now I did live in an era growing up that dresses and doll babies were the "norm"..whatever that is..for little girls etc..(I hated doll babies..came Christmas time and every year my mother insisted that I had to have another doll..they were made mostly of rubber back "then.".I would sniff the packages..locate the doll and either not open it or it would opened be last..my daughter got a most wonderfuil collection of "antique" dolls when she was old enough to play with them..mint condition..I never played with them..)..loved my pearl handled six-shooter..my canoe that floated..hated my Cowgirl outfit) but dresses weren't for me..I wore them because I had to..dress code for school..rebelled every other time..got my very first pair of jeans when I was 11 (only because it ws a requirement for Camp.)...haven't looked back since..My partner now owns more dresses than I do..will wear one If the occasion calls for.. I'm not too shabby dressed but not comfortable..
My Mom also compared me to the more"lady-like" people that she wanted me to emulate..like Cousin Connie..how I resented her and resented my mother's expectations of me..and the fact she could not accept me as I truly was..the more she pushed me being a "girl" the more I turned the other way..Tom Boy with a capital "T"..You know..I might of turned out to be an okay girl if I wasn't pushed so hard..undermined my confidence..I just wanted to be left alone..by her, by others..
There are other issues that also rear their ugly head about this besides my Mom's determination I could be fit in one set only...very personal and this isn't where I would feel comfortable telling my whole life history..let's just say I wanted to be "boy like" because I felt that if I couldn't beat them at their "game"..I could join them and they would leave me alone....It wasn't that I "felt" I was a male in a female body..I was just trying to survive..I just didn't want to be a girl..didn't like what came with "that" territory..It didn't work..I still have extreme problems with any male person still because of this time from the age of three up..I try really hard not to "lump" everyone into this category...and I know this isn't your issue but it helps to know why somethings happened and why I felt this way..
My Dael ,now, is an extraordinary sensitive, patient and loving person..he has had to deal with the "scared" little girl that never had a chance to have a "worry free" childhood and had to grow up way too fast....Bless my Mama's heart..she's still trying to get me to wear Pink.I believe though..she has bought me my "last" pink sweat pants..after umpteen years of her buying and me refusing to wear them.....She wasn't aware of the Other side of my life then..she did the best she could to raise me "right"..she just didn't understand..
Dael and I always have a good chuckle of the irony of our lifestyle..After we browse through the Ladies department for him..we head for the Mens to find me a pair of shorts and a tee shirt..However I can be "soft".. have bought for myself..girl type clothes..tis a big deal in my Family..my sister is still in shock over this revelation...
Anyway..my daughter has grown up totally guilt free about who she is..why she might want to wear this piece of "Girl" clothing or a "guy" shirt..she had Tonka Trucks..Baseball bats..Doll babies.."princess sets".cowgirl and cowboy outfits..she's the type to wear a prom dress with a pair of jeans under it..she loves pink and is so lovely in the color..She is an excellent mother and her little fella has Star Wars stuff..Pokemon,cars, trucks, doll babies..whatever..he seems to be pretty stable and quite happy in this aspect..
It's long..but I wanted you to see..you are helping your little one to become all she can be..you are a good and special Lady..:hugs:

Thank you for loving her as you do..she really is Blessed with you in her life...

Blessings to you and your Family,

Majestyk's Lady :love:

[Adam]

wow your great :) you may find in a few years she will want to become girly like her freinds or she may not but at least she can have that choice.

Growing up my folks would not let me cut my hair short as much as i begged but clothes wise i won the battle at about age 5 when i took a dress they put on me off while we was out :heehee: they never got me to wear them again.

Folks are supportive now but dont understand it but thats ok by me :)

Its really nice to hear that your loveing your daughter without pushing her to who you would like her to be she is very lucky indeed :)

[Bev06 GG]

Wow majestykes lady, that is some story. Glad you have found happiness and are settled now. from your mail it souds like you dealt with things very well but I am sure there must have been difficult times for you in there somewhere. You sound very well adjusted and settled and that is what my hope is for Rosie whatever lifestyle she might choose.

And Adam you are dead right. She is still very young and it could well be that once hormones kick in and she gets interested in boys she will become more girly. On the other hand the hormones might have the adverse affect who knows we shall have to wait and see.

Thank you everyone for your encouragement and enlightenment. I guess I feel more educated when its the other way round and FTM is still an area in which I am pretty green so your comments and thoughts have been very helpful.
Take care
Bv

[DawnL]

Bev,
I'm still not sure about the nature or nuture argument. I have been writing a story of my life (soley for myself) trying to understand how I got where I am, and have remembered things that went on in my youth. I have a younger sister and remember dressing up in her clothes. Dad would have no part of that. I wanted to take home ec in high school. Dad would have no part of that. I wanted to go to pastry school after high school. Dad would have no part of that. I have always liked my hair real long. Yep, you guessed it, Dad would have no part of that. Until I was old enough to make that decision for myself (sometime in high school) it was in the basement and buzzed heads all around. Yet after all of this here I sit 40+ years later in a nightgown typing this.

[gennee]

Loving and acceptig Rosie for who she is the best gift any child can have. I'm thankful for a supportive wife and son. I'm free to be 'Gennee' and I love being who I am. I have a saying "Be who you are" and I encourage everybody to do this.

Gennee

:love:

[metalguy639]

Your daughter sounds very familiar...she sounds like me. To answer your question. No, I believe that it would not matter how much you buy her footballs etc or how much you told her you wanted her to look pretty in pink she will be her own person and it sounds as if she is either a tom boy or a FTM in the making. When I was growing up no matter amount of telling me to dress like a girl, be ladylike, etc did not help and really whenever someone said that I either would get really pissed off or depressed. I was lucky. When I was pretty young my parents realized that I was indeed very different and they would do the same that you are doing with your daughter...buy me footballs, boys clothes etc. Because when it came down to it no matter what they did or wanted me to do that was girly it was not gonna happen.

[Nicki B]

She is still very young and it could well be that once hormones kick in and she gets interested in boys she will become more girly. On the other hand the hormones might have the adverse affect who knows we shall have to wait and see.

She could also end up a mixture of both.. Some of us (maybe most?) are neither all of one or all of the other. ;)

[Wolfie]

Kids should be allowed to choose and it sounds as if you are cool parents Bev and SO. I always remember the day my eldest son came to me and in embarrassment said he like stroking his younger sisters' barbie dolls hair and playing with them and asking me if its was wrong. My reply was of course not just like it was ok for his sisters to play with his cars etc. Now he is 21 has a girlfriend (with lovely long blonde hair! :D )
When I grew up my parents were determined I was going to be girly, they had a fight on their hands. When bought a sindy pool I bought an action man (they didnt speak to me for weeks for that!) and played scuba diving, when bought a doll i ripped its head off. I ended up with a piece of wood with nails and screws in that i made my self and bought myself a tommy gun! I only wore school uniform cos I had too but after school would only wear jeans and tee shirts. I remember my father once seeing me when I was about 15 (he worked alot and I avoided him a lot!) and he gave my mum money to buy me some 'decent clothes' Was the worse shopping trip of my life! Ended up with a handbag (never did work out what it was for!) skirt, the nastiest blouse that had ever been designed, high heeled shoes and a cardigan. I though I was going to die. Soon got back to my leather motorbike boots, jeans, teeshirt and checked shirt and leather jacket! You would think they might of realized but hey they unlike you Bev didn't think about their child. My mother use to drop me a mile away from the college where she worked and I had to attend cos she didn't want anyone to know I was related to her cos of my masculine dress sense. :tongueout
Respect for you and your kids and for all who show respect to theres. They are after all individuals - not clones!

[Kimberley]

Nature vs. Nurture. There has never been any empirical evidence to prove nurture has anything to do with either sexual or gender orientation/preferences. This goes deeply into the theories of our favourite nemises, Blanchard and Zucker. Believing it is to buy into their concepts.

As far as nurture is concerned, allowing a child to explore is providing them with the positive tools to recognize their own sexuality and gender. To hinder that is to harm the child.

As parents we are charged to love our children unconditionally and give them guidance until they can decide for themselves. This is the greatest gift any of us can give. It is just too bad most parents dont buy into it. A lot of us would be much better off if our parents had.

Kudos to you Bev for letting your daughter decide for herself. She will love you all the more for it in the end no matter what what paths she is destined to follow. She will make choices that with your support will always be right ones. For her to not make a choice will be the wrong one. There are many victims of that on these boards.

:love:

:hugs:
Kimberley

[MichelleBolton]

Bev,

I applaud your decisions to allow your Daughter to express herself, in the ways she desires.

I tried to talk to my Mom about myself when I was 8 or 9, and based on her responses to me - I learned that it wasn't acceptable to bring up my feelings about being a girl, therefore I simply hid it away from my parents - and now I am 40, working to address my needs, yet wishing that I had not underground when I was 9.

Your Daughter will change overtime, and I believe your openness to allow her to grow with change is the best thing a parent can do. You clearly are teaching her right from wrong, yet - you are not extending right or wrong to Gender expression. I felt my Mom clearly told me when I was 9 that she did not accept me expressing a gender that I clearly am not (In her mind, not mine).

Michelle

[darla_g]

Bev,
I think that is a real supportive attitude you have. This sounds exactly like what you would say to a MtF cd as well. You are truly a wonderful person. I wish you and your daughter well.
darla

[Mr. Pierce]

I apologize if I'm merely restating what someone else has already said (i haven't yet taken the time to read everyone's response) but as far as nature vs nurture goes, your true colors will inevitably bleed through. And with that I use the whole "ex-gay" concept as an example. Radical religious groups convincing themselves and others that they can prove that homosexuality is completely nurtured and can be reversed, resulting in high suicide rates and most inevitably "relapsing"...

I admire your attitude greatly as I know most of the other fine gentleman (and friends) have already voiced, and I personally wish that my own family would also take after your example (pipe dream).

[Bev06 GG]

Hi Folks,
I'd forgotten about this thread. I suppose thinking about it we all have to find our way in life and where we sit in society. Its a difficult enough job as it is without someone else telling us what we are supposed to do. I have made too many mistakes with my own life without risking messing someone elses up so i leave it to them. Not to mess it up, but to hopefully make the right choices and be content with who they are and if they do make mistakes just being there to help bail them out.
I think the world would definitely be a better place if we all concentrated on our own walk in life rather than judging others. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best for our loved ones, but because we can only see a very small picture of the whole we aren't really in a position to say just what that is. I think accepting someone for who they are and not who you think they should be is one of greatest favours you could do for anyone And if its someone you love then what a wonderful way to demonstrate that. UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is one of those gifts that when you give it you stand a pretty good chance of getting it back, and if for any reason you dont it is never wasted because it blesses your own life too.
Take care
Bev

[tvbeckytv]

As far as the nature vs. nurture debate about TG people, I do not believe it. The reason being that though some TG people have has supported families and some have had families that were very unsupportive yet are still TG.


what you have to remember about nurture is that it encompasses all influences in growing up. The fact that ones parents do not accept a characteristic dosnt mean the individual was not exposed to something that influenced them in some way.

[Cai]

what you have to remember about nurture is that it encompasses all influences in growing up. The fact that ones parents do not accept a characteristic dosnt mean the individual was not exposed to something that influenced them in some way.

Yes, but to say TG behavior is environment-dependent would require that all TG people have some sort of similar experience as children. And so many of us come from such different childhoods, for us to have a shared experience, it would have to be so broad/common that many, many people who aren't TG also had a similar experience.

[Amy Hepker]

I believe Bev that we all could be a lot happier in life if we could just be who we are inside. I know since I have been coming out more and more that I just feel wonderful about everything. You said your daughter is a very person, I think it is because she can be who she wants to be without being pushed into one role or another. She may with time turn out to be one of the worlds most important Ladies, just because you let her be who she really is.

[DanielMacBride]

Wow, how did I miss this thread? In my case the "nurture" side of the argument was that my parents realised early on that I was not your typical girl, and did EVERYTHING they could to crush the "non-girly" stuff and force me to conform to the stereotypical girl mold. This also included such a restrictive influence that I was NOT permitted to play with boys at ALL, and until I was in my 30s I had NO idea that transfolk even existed because in our house "that sort of thing" was never discussed or even mentioned and there was absolutely NO exposure to it whatsoever.

This is exactly why it took me 37 years to realise that I am male - because until about 4 years ago I had no idea that gender even COULD be an issue, and until about a month before I came out last year, I had no idea that being trans went both ways, not just MtF!! So I too am sceptical about the "nurture" part of things.

I believe that no matter what you do, the "nature" is going to prevail anyway, so you might as well allow a child the freedom to explore and express themselves in whatever way they choose (within reason as long as it's appropriate of course) because they will be whatever they are, and if you try to change that, you are just going to make it harder and more traumatic for them to be themselves (and it will take longer).