Can we get a consensus of what passing is?

[Nicki B]

It seems clear to me that different people here define passing very differently.

But, until we can agree (at least by a majority vote) on what we actually mean by passing, it seems rather pointless to have the discussion on why or if it matters?

So, I've started a poll with some possibilities - if you don't see one that you can agree with, shout and we'll see if we can get the list expanded.


Note - The poll is intended to be open to everyone who has membership here.

[celeste26]

To me I would go anywhere and do anything I would otherwise do and not even be questioned as to whether or not I was my appearant gender.

[docrobbysherry]

I voted for number one, figuring to be the odd man(lady) out. I would have bet most would vote for the LAST choice! Shows u what I know!

Maybe the poll #'s will change with time?

[joann07]

#2 is my choice.
I go pretty much anywhere please because I present myself very well.
It doesn't matter whether a place is labled "TG friendly" or not (not that it's a bad thing) because I am very comfortable in how I conduct myself in public.
It's so nice to be treated like lady because, in the other person's eyes, they perceive me as one and, to me, that's what makes passing and blending in so satisfying. :c9:

Hugs!

[curse within]

It would have to be being comfortable and accepted, I feel if you have that you have lifted a barrier closed the gap of people thinking what you should be compared to being what you are. Of course looking and acting the part really helps as well in which I cannot do tough one this poll

[Sandra Dunn]

As long as I'm not recognized as who I am when in butch mode, hey I'm good with that. My size and build pretty much says I'm either a very masculine woman or a man in fem mode. I do get a lot of nice comments about what I'm wearing, the way my make up is done and my presentation.

[Princess Chantal]

(as your preferred gender)??????
my preferred gender is male, my genetic gender is male
so "passing" to me in this case is being recognized as male and not be recognized as a female (doesn't matter if I am portraying a feminine look and mannerisms)

[KayleeAllison]

I voted for number one, to me "passing" means that if I'm walking down the street fully dressed, most people don't think "crossdresser", they think "girl". Most people, not all. If I were out and about and 9 out of 10 people thought "girl", I'd consider I were passing. If it were 2 out of 10, I'm not passing. :) I think passing and being comfortable with not passing are two different things...

For me the struggle with going out more hasn't been passing, but being comfortable with not passing. I'm fairly tall, six foot, so the very very very few times I've been out I had a lot of attention, and could tell when it registered that I wasn't a girl. Really, it wasn't even the height, but probably more that I'm thinking about it. Confidence plays a big part in passing, I'm still working on that. :) But I've decided to go out *much* more in the future, whether I pass or not.

[Karren H]

I didn't vote.... mainly because passing to me doesn't mean a thing.... I wear what I want and go where I want and no one cares..... I doubt I pass as a female.... I probably do get noticed..... I just could care less what other people think of the way I dress....

[Lora Olivia]

I voted, and I just had to vote the way I felt and tried to express in the other thread pretty comfy in 99% of situations and accepted as fem in 99.5 % of the same

[linnea]

Interesting question, Nikki. I doubt that there is a consensus, but the various points of view are interesting. I'm convinced that passing starts with a person's being comfortable with herself; then she can achieve more of the things that are necessary for blending, being accepted, and being recognized as a person of the gender she is presenting.
I know that that was the case with my most recent CD adventure: going swimming in the pool at the motel where I was staying. Once I decided that I felt good and confident about the swimming suit and how I looked, everything else just seemed to work--taking short dips, sun bathing (outdoor pool), etc.
But my body was more exposed in that situation than at any other time of my CD life, so there was much more to worry about regarding being "read." All that I wore was some make-up, a wig, and my swimming suit. From the other pool users' points of view, I don't know if they thought that I was passing or not. Certainly no one challenged me about it.
Thanks for asking the question.

[Phyliss]

By being comfortable as you present yourself, you're not taken as being of your "birth sex" and are accepted as simply another lady going about her business. In short, not being noticed, ( AKA blending)
Self confidence is the biggest key to all.
People see what they want to see. If I present as female, and am confident in my presentation , 99.9 % of people won't even "see" me.
Should I be "out and about" in a mini and 5" heels at a place where that attire is "out of place" even for a REAL GG of course I expect to be "seen" and "clocked".

[Bev06 GG]

Oh good post Nicki, I know I'm not allowed to vote but if I could I'd have gone with number 2 with number 3 as a close second. Number 1 would be great but a tad unrealistic seen as someone once thought I was a boy and had to take my word for it that i was not, and a female friend of mine admits that she looks like a fella and even sounds like one (she's not butch either).
Bev

[Jennifer_G]

Hi

I popped into the motorway services (M1 London Gateway) this morning dressed as Jennifer although I was fully dressed including wig I had no makeup at all.

Did I pass?

Well to some people obviously NOT, as although I shaved beard shadow was apparent.
What was amazing though were how many people did not notice at all because they were too busy doing their own thing. There were a couple of people who were no more than 5 or 6 feet away from me and I got no reaction.

Based on this I'm not sure how to vote.
Can I vote for them all:heehee:???

OK! just edited and gone for number 2 !!

[victoriamwilliams1]

For me it is acceptance even though at time I have been mistaken for a tall GG which is fine by me.

[Kieron Andrew]

Oh good post Nicki, I know I'm not allowed to vote but if I could I'd have gone with number 2 with number 3 as a close second. Number 1 would be great but a tad unrealistic seen as someone once thought I was a boy and had to take my word for it that i was not, and a female friend of mine admits that she looks like a fella and even sounds like one (she's not butch either).
Bev

why are you not allowed to vote, its not a mtf poll only :p, its about mtf issues that anyone can have a take on

[Shannen]

To me passing means that you can "pass by" someone and they will not realize that you are not your birth gender.

Also it could be used as in "pass the inspection test".

If a closer inspection of you means you "fail to pass the inspection test", then did you pass for awhile? That would be blending in my book, which is different.

I'm glad we will finally have this settled soon!!!! :devil:

[Tomara]

Hi I think it all starts with feeling comfortable with yourself.

:) Tomara

[Nicki B]

#2 is my choice.
....It's so nice to be treated like lady because, in the other person's eyes, they perceive me as one


By being comfortable as you present yourself, you're not taken as being of your "birth sex" and are accepted as simply another lady going about her business.

Aren't both of those answers actually the first option, then, NOT the second??? :strugglin



I know I'm not allowed to vote


The poll is intended to be open to everyone who has membership here.

Yes Bev, you are allowed - I'm trying to get a view we can all agree on..



why are you not allowed to vote, its not a mtf poll only :p, its about mtf issues that anyone can have a take on

It was intended to be for ftms as well as mtfs (that's the way I tried to word it) - unless the guys don't think passing matters, as a concept?




I'm not trying to say whether passing is important, here, or asking if you pass - I'm simply asking if we can agree what it is..

[Rachel Morley]

Being completely treated as the gender I am presenting as. :)

(if they do actually know ... I'd rather they didn't tell me that they know. Happiness is not being reminded :) )

[MJ]

Being both comfortable and accepted. for who i am. forgive me but passing is veary hard ... i don't bother to try any more. instead i just be myself that way people can take me ..or leave me .. there choice

[CD Susan]

I voted for #2. When I am out dressed I want only to 'blend in' with all the other faces in the crowd. I do not seek attention or desire compliments. Nor do I want others to look at me and think 'man in a dress'. I only want the level of confidence that I show to be enough that I am percieved as the female that I am presenting myself as and that is all.

[Jilmac]

I voted for comfortable and acceped because I'm comfortable with Jill and If I'm accepted, I pass, regardless if I'm read or not. :)

[Nicki B]

I voted for #2. When I am out dressed I want only to 'blend in' with all the other faces in the crowd.

But again - is that passing as your desired gender?


..enough that I am percieved as the female that I am presenting myself as and that is all.

Isn't that #1?


People are still talking about themselves - not what is the meaning of 'passing'?

[JaytoJillian]

Totally a toss-up between 1 & 2 for me. I mean, geez, I don't want to go through the entire process of going from Jay to Jillian and have no one notice me, yet, I don't want to be looked upon for too long, because my gender will quickly betray me. I guess I want the cake and I want to eat it, too.

[Melinda G]

To me it means not being noticed too much, when I walk down the street. Or if I am noticed, that I look enough like a woman, that a person is not sure, that I am a man. Even if someone might be a little suspicious, I think I look good enough, that they don't know if I am in transition, or a real woman. I certainly don't think they would peg me as a man in a dress. There are a lot of real woman that aren't too attractive.

[Empress Lainie]

Things that happened to me, that let you know you pass!

1. Did your husband die? (at a meeting of a hospital auxiliary service H2U, sitting at a table with 3 other women who looked older than me but were likely younger.)

2. Have you had a hysterectomy? (while lying on a gurney waiting for my new pacemaker surgery from the nurse taking medical history)

3. Are you married? (from a guy I danced with)

4. Bowling in a women's or mixed league as a woman, which I plan to do. My ID is female now.

5. Can I take you to your table ladies? (waiters at several restaurants)

6. You are the Queen of the Suncoast (from a band leader while I was dancing.)

7. When is your baby due? (another lady when I was wearing my Miracle on the Way Tshirt - I know I am terrible!)

8. When your ex-gf asks you to go to the ladies room with her.

[Jonianne]

.......But, until we can agree (at least by a majority vote) on what we actually mean by passing, it seems rather pointless to have the discussion on why or if it matters?

Hi Nicki,

I don't usually try to be contrary, but I don't think there will ever be a set defination of "passing" nor should there be. Who would make that official? A majority? I don't think a majority rules on this issue.

I think every persons thoughts are valid even if its only one person. I think a major part of the discussion of why or if it matters will be each persons defination of "passing".

BTW, I voted for 3 "being comfortable ...." as it seems to be the most inclusive. Certainly, I would love to be taken for as a female, but the odds of that are slim. But, I don't let that stop me from feeling the sun on my face.

[TSchapes]

there's 93 responses and even though 45 percent believe it's blending, 55 percent think it's something other than blending.

I personally don't have a problem with the different definitions, I just think we obsess about it too much.

Plus, there's certain things that are out of our control. For example, one CD may go out and pass, two CD's that go out together could pass, but the rule of thumb is three or more CD's going out together and the odds of them passing are not good.

Also it seems the more you worry about passing the chances are good you won't.

That's why I picked the one where it doesn't depend on others.

Love, Tracy

[MarieTS]

There are undoubtedly varying opinions as to what "passing" is. But to me, it's all of the first three poll options combined.

[Ellie]

It seams to me that there should be another dimension to the question of passing and that is: By how far?

It is one thing to be seen as another gender from across the street, it is quite another to pass in an interpersonal situation such as face to face conversation with a stranger at a sidewalk café.

Perhaps that is one reason why it is so hard to evaluate a person "passability" from only still pictures.

[vivianann]

I voted comfortable with who you are, I know I dont pass however I have alot of confidence and peaple seem to pick up on that and I get alot of compliments from the ones that notice, and the rest of the peaple are too busy to care. When I go out in public I dress appropriate for the the day and time so I dont bring too much attention to myself.

[Nicki B]

I don't usually try to be contrary, but I don't think there will ever be a set defination of "passing" nor should there be. Who would make that official? A majority? I don't think a majority rules on this issue.

Joni, we have lots of threads that discuss passing - they so often get heated, perhaps because people are actually talking at cross purposes - we all use the same word, but to mean different things?

I'm not suggesting you no longer can use it any way you want - BUT I am trying to raise an awareness of how the majority may be using it and if you realise you are part of a minority, that may reduce temperatures, somewhat - rather than just continuing in ignorance?




It seams to me that there should be another dimension to the question of passing and that is: By how far?

It is one thing to be seen as another gender from across the street, it is quite another to pass in an interpersonal situation such as face to face conversation with a stranger at a sidewalk café.

But surely, in either case, your definition of what passing is is exactly the same?

[Nicki B]

there's 93 responses and even though 45 percent believe it's blending, 55 percent think it's something other than blending.

Yesterday it was 48%... :idontknow: But the consensus does seem to be that passing = blending, i.e. not being noticed in the first place, rather than (for example) an MTF being assumed to be a woman.

I confess I'm surprised, but I'd be intrigued to know what that latter should be called.


And 85% think it is related to what other people are thinking?

[Nadia-Maria]

But the consensus does seem to be that passing = blending, i.e. not being noticed in the first place, rather than (for example) an MTF being assumed to be a woman.

I confess I'm surprised, but I'd be intrigued to know what that latter should be called.

I share your surprise. As for me, "passing as a girl" has nothing to do with being unnoticed.
To really "pass" as a girl it is mandotary to have been noticed as a girl.
Just my understanding.
Hugs. Nadia

[Sally24]

My personal definition of passing, when I'm out, is to be treated as female and thought to be either female or a transexual (not a guy in a dress!).

[slamddoger]

to me passing is be combule whith your self

[Jonianne]

Joni, we have lots of threads that discuss passing - they so often get heated, perhaps because people are actually talking at cross purposes - we all use the same word, but to mean different things?

This is a good thread, Nicki. The subject is a good matter to be addressed. If we were absolutely technical about it, I would imagine most would pick #1. But since very few actually achive that level, I am not suprised most go with trying to blend in. Being realistic, I never go out expecting to "pass" (#1 or #2"), so I want to be comfortable enough with myself (#3) even if I know I am easily "read", so that either people don't notice or people feel comfortable around me.


I'm not suggesting you no longer can use it any way you want - BUT I am trying to raise an awareness of how the majority may be using it

I guess in my useage of the word in my posts, really I am using the defination of #1 or #2, since I say I go out "not expecting to pass".

BTW I havn't read in any of your post how you voted.

Hugs,

Joni

[Suzy Harrison]

#1 for me - I just want to be perceived as female from birth.

I don't go to TG friendly places - I just go anywhere in public, but always feel awful if I'm read. I'm very sensitive to this.

To show you how much so.... I was in a shop, in drab ~ and twice the assistant called me 'sir', as she should I suppose. But it cuts right through me.

I think that's one of the things that seemed to indicate, along the way, that I'm a transsexual rather than a CD.

[RavenAndrea]

I am transitioning, but as anyone of us we have good days and bad ones. So some days it is hard to get my makeup right. I know I have to really concentrate on passable makeup. Concealer and any foundation are difficult in summer because of exposure to the sun and the resulting tanning. I have been more successful finding a wood filler closer to my tanned complexion than concealer. But wood filler is not good for the skin (LOL). I expect GG's have a similar problem because I go to reputable cosmetic vendors such as Macs. I ride a Harley so my face gets wind burn plus sun. I'm just wondering if anyone has the same summer makeup problem.

Andrea:battingeyelashes:

[Julogden]

Passing means, well, passing: being taken for a member of the sex opposite your birth sex/gender without question. That's what it's meant for the approximately 30 years that I've been in touch with the TG community.

To me, the term is quite specific and clear, but recently, many have a much more fuzzy way of defining it. As far as I'm concerned, being tolerated or accepted is not the same as passing, but in my opinion, it is more desireable, and for most of us, attainable.

Carol

[marny]

Passing tome is to go into a store and have the clerk ask ' Can I help you mamm?'

[JenniferPaul]

Let look at the chances you can achieve the first two choices. 1. Not being see as your birth gender, 2. Not being notice. If you go out regularly you will be seen by thousands of people. If you "Pass"by either of these standards 99.99 % of the time you will be noticed and read by at least on person.

Jennifer Paul

[Karen_Ski]

This was a tough poll because there were several of the replies that could fit how I feel about the proverbial "passing". Obviously not being recognized as a genetic male is the "ultimate" passing however fitting in or as the poll said "blending in" is important in my mind as I have stated in several of my posts. With all that said I chose being comfortable and accepted because I believe in my heart that gives me the most joy. It doesn't matter to me as much that I am "made" as it that people accept me for who I am and how I enjoy myself and that we all learn to accept each other for whatever we are.

[Valeria]

Yesterday it was 48%... :idontknow: But the consensus does seem to be that passing = blending, i.e. not being noticed in the first place, rather than (for example) an MTF being assumed to be a woman.

I confess I'm surprised, but I'd be intrigued to know what that latter should be called.
The word "passing" has a history predating contemporary gender issues -- for instance, it was historically used to describe a light-skinned African-American person passing as white. It did not mean that they were "comfortable" or "confident" or that they'd achieved "acceptance" -- it simply meant that people were taking them as white (and if it were later revealed that they were "not" white, there could be dire consequences). Within the confines of this forum (and perhaps CD culture in general), there do seem to be a lot of people that use the word as a synonym for "blending", but that's not what is generally meant in TS circles (and it's not the literal historical meaning of the word).

In any case, I only use the word "passing" when I think it's necessary for clarity (because that's the terminology being used by others). The word "passing" has a negative connotation (from the POV of someone TS), because it implies a level of deception (i.e., that we are passing ourselves off as something other than what we are).

My preferred phrasing is that I wish to be gendered correctly (or simply gendered as female). Since I'm legally female and live full-time as a woman, it'd be rather absurd to say that I'm "passing" as female -- I *am* female. It's more appropriate to note that I get consistently gendered as female.

I would describe the second option as "blending". The other options (being comfortable, and gaining acceptance) are something else. Being comfortable can help with getting gendered correctly (though it's not as key as some think -- I get gendered female even when I'm angry, upset, crying, and/or hysterical), but it's not the same as passing. Being accepted is nice, but it's totally out of our control and not a universal constant.

[BTW, I'm not thrilled with the phrasing "Not being taken as your birth sex". As far as I am concerned, my birth sex was female -- I was just misassigned as "male" because of genitalia anomalies. :) ]


Totally a toss-up between 1 & 2 for me. I mean, geez, I don't want to go through the entire process of going from Jay to Jillian and have no one notice me, yet, I don't want to be looked upon for too long, because my gender will quickly betray me. I guess I want the cake and I want to eat it, too.
If you are TS and transitioning, you have too pessimistic a viewpoint on what is possible. I teach classes, assess patients -- do all sorts of things that essentially *require* that people stare at me for extended periods. I also wear bikinis to water parks and beaches, throw parties for friends, and I'm quite gregarious. It doesn't cause me any problems -- none of my friends or students or patients or peers know I'm not technically a cis female. Lots of trans females reach the point where they get gendered as female extremely consistently.


Let look at the chances you can achieve the first two choices. 1. Not being see as your birth gender, 2. Not being notice. If you go out regularly you will be seen by thousands of people. If you "Pass"by either of these standards 99.99 % of the time you will be noticed and read by at least on person.
I think a lot of CDs will accept one in ten thousand people percieving them as their assigned gender instead of the gender they are presenting as, and I think a lot of TS people can do better than 99.99%.

[Ásfríðr]

being comfortable with yerself is not that much to do with passing. i think if people accept you as a transperson then you're a) passing passably and b) with trans-educated people; or if they aren't and they're still accepting of you as trans then you're changing people's ideas and thats always a good thing. thats what i want out of passing, to be seen and appreciated as the transgirl i am. of course, that relies on people knowing what it means to be trans. if no one notices, this is fine also, although it can lead to problems later. still, if someone says 'scuse me miss?', i am ver' happy to say the least hehe

[Joanne f]

Seeing that i have used the expression I suppose i had better stick my oar in (who was that saying no thank you, i have your number).
I am wandering if we are missing something here , should we really be looking for an agreed concept of the meaning of passing in Cd terms as there are many types of Cds on there.
If we came to some sort of conclusion of what passing is then that is like setting a standard which some might pass easily while others may feel like they will never reach that standard, i do not want to think that i have passed a certain standard of what the Cding community has set for me just so that i can think ,do you except me now i have passed your test .
I know that i have been guilty of using this expression but have now had a rethink on it and wondering if i should ban myself from thinking in those terms , or in some other term that i am just missing at the moment .


joanne


now i bet you wish i had not put my oar in :heehee:

[Nicki B]

BTW I havn't read in any of your post how you voted.

I'm in complete agreement with Julie.


Passing means, well, passing: being taken for a member of the sex opposite your birth sex/gender without question. That's what it's meant for the approximately 30 years that I've been in touch with the TG community.

TBH, this is the ONLY place where I've ever come across the suggestion that it's anything else, but the poll results are now quite clear and do explain much of the confusion/irritation in some past threads.. TBH, particularly reading some of the comments here, it feels as if people are sometimes unconsciously redrawing the definition, because they don't think they can meet it? :doh:



As far as I'm concerned, being tolerated or accepted is not the same as passing, but in my opinion, it is more desireable, and for most of us, attainable.

I wholeheartedly agree...


The word "passing" has a negative connotation (from the POV of someone TS), because it implies a level of deception (i.e., that we are passing ourselves off as something other than what we are).

I think it implies that for all of us - or at least it does for both the first and second definitions in the poll..



But with 170 votes now, it's perfectly clear that almost half of us define 'passing' as not being noticed (although in their comments, they often more confused); only half that number think it's being believed to have been born the opposite sex to what we were.
(Note I'm using the definition of sex=physical characteristics, NOT=gender.)

[curse within]

joanne. I can relate to that, Some of us are merely part time CDer's and would never want to carry a femme look into our male appearance IE surgery and its expense and some of us were not lucky enough to have the femme appearance naturally to prevent surgery to get that sometimes desired look as PASSING .As part of the urge I do want and have the need to pass I hope it doesn't over come me in time and out weigh my male needs to stay manley in apperance . I have gone through some major stress here in these past 6 months and altho slim prior I had a bit of a beer belly from my heavy drinking days needless to say that is gone now , I am no longer stressed but I have lost my appetite I think my stomach has shrunk but I am loving the fact that I have gone down a few sizes. I will stay with my answer to be accepted and comfortable.

[Sam-antha]

I plumped straight off for #2 - not noticed- but with qualifications in terms of #3, the need to feel comfortable. I must be comfortable out dressed amongst other people.
Reading thro the replies and answers I came to realise that while sometimes being comfortable is the major factor---- for example my thread "Out with my bike", without makeup etc, there are occassions in town or amongst people in the country when being taken as total female is my aim. It is not enough to be accepted, for instance as a male, dressed as female.
I dunno, most times I do not care that much so long as I am comfy with the presentation (- is age/done it so often, a factor here -?) but it would be nice to be perfect.

[CharleneT]

I picked #5 because it encompasses what I think. Fooling people about my gender? I just do not expect it - nor directly desire it. I want to be happy in what I do and hope that others accept me as a person. If they think that I am actually a woman, that is just icing on the cake. I do LOVE cake by the way....

Charlene

[Fab Karen]

When your car moves ahead of the car next to you, you are passing.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

There is not of us gurls who has gotten all dress up put on a wig did our make-up took a look in the mirror and ask, do I pass?

We did not ask our self am I comfortable will I be accepted can I blend in or will people think this is my birth sex, no! the first thing we ask is can I pass.

As time pass we got comfortable with our cross dressing we begin to accept
who we are and what are true sex is and the confidence in all of our self just help us to blend in.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Jonianne]

TBH, this is the ONLY place where I've ever come across the suggestion that it's anything else, but the poll results are now quite clear and do explain much of the confusion/irritation in some past threads.. TBH, particularly reading some of the comments here, it feels as if people are sometimes unconsciously redrawing the definition

Who's definition Nicki? Yours or the majority?


because they don't think they can meet it? :doh:.......But with 170 votes now, it's perfectly clear that almost half of us define 'passing' as not being noticed (although in their comments, they often more confused); only half that number think it's being believed to have been born the opposite sex to what we were.
(Note I'm using the definition of sex=physical characteristics, NOT=gender.)


I guess my problem with this "passing" thing is it's all about passing judjment. And that's subjective anyway. What is the "passing" grade? Is it 100% to where no one can possibly tell that you are not your birth sex? or is it only 90% of those that see you or is it 70% or even 60% (D-)?

What if you get read by one person, does that mean you are not passible? The possibilities are endless. Its a judgement call at best.

I just don't like the idea of passing judgement. I went through years of self judgement on just being a crossdresser. It took years for me to find a good level of self acceptance in that area alone. It's like, if we don't set the defination as #1, then in a sense we are "not good enough" or there is a problem with us because we don"t pass.

Females have a serious problem in their lives because of the media telling them they are not good enough because they don't look like some movie star or singer. Let's not add that to our problem too!

Well that is just my :2c: worth.

Your unpassable sister,

Love,

Joni

[Nicki B]

I guess my problem with this "passing" thing is it's all about passing judjment. And that's subjective anyway. What is the "passing" grade? Is it 100% to where no one can possibly tell that you are not your birth sex? or is it only 90% of those that see you or is it 70% or even 60% (D-)?

What if you get read by one person, does that mean you are not passible? The possibilities are endless. Its a judgement call at best.

I just don't like the idea of passing judgement. I went through years of self judgement on just being a crossdresser. It took years for me to find a good level of self acceptance in that area alone. It's like, if we don't set the defination as #1, then in a sense we are "not good enough" or there is a problem with us because we don"t pass.

Joni, please look back at this thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69957) to perhaps understand more my own point of view?

But don't you also think, from your comments above, that you are defining 'passing' as not being read? :strugglin



I just don't think we can go on to talk about it's importance OR NOT, if we're not ALL clear what meanings we're using - which is simply why I started this thread. Telling someone they don't need to obssess about passing doesn't really make sense, if they define it as accepting themselves?

[girl_in_pantyhose]

this is a good poll!

[renee k]

Hi All,

I voted for number five. I'm comfortable being Renee, who I am. That translates to being at ease, comfortable in normal everyday life. So to me this a progression from just blending in. You can blend in by the way you dress, and yet not have any interaction with anyone else. Which is how many of us act when we first go out into the everyday world. I remember when I first started shopping as Renee, I was petrified to speak to a sales associate. Now it's just a normal part of being who I am. And to the people that I interact with in public. I want them to accept me as the middle aged woman they see. I get read now and then but so what. It all boils down to how treat others. If you treat them with respect and courtesy, you'll get the same in return. Many have said attitude is ninety percent of passing, and I whole heartedly agree. If your comfortable with yourself as the person your presenting you'll have no trouble getting around in this world.

Huggs, Renee

[Michelle Hart]

Hmm....

Honestly I don't think I've ever passed. Maybe I should have tried to, but I was to focused on being totaly believable first.

At this point I work on not just what people see but what they also percieve. No matter how fabulous you look or frumpy you can still be percieved as something else.

Bev really summed it up quite well...


someone once thought I was a boy and had to take my word for it that i was not, and a female friend of mine admits that she looks like a fella and even sounds like one

When people see you do the BELIEVE your male or female???

Every thing we do sends concious and more often than not subconcious signals to others about us. What you have on is a very small fraction of the total image that is veiwed when sombody look's at you.

So For me I just make sure I'm always believable.......

[Jonianne]

Hi Nicki,

Thank you for directing me to your previous thread.


And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...

I certainly had you 180 Degrees from your intention of the poll. This topic certainly has made quite a lively discussion in the past. Your perfered defination in the poll as "Not being taken as your birth sex" does seem to go along with someone who could obsess about it. I believe thats why most went with #2. Most try to look the best they can, but are happy to be able to blend.

I believe your original point in the previous thread is that if the ultimate goal is to pass, then all that does is keep the status quo with the non-CD population in general. If they recognize us as being crossdressers and see us as average ordinary good people then they may have a better attitude toward us.

My question then is wouldn't #4 or #5 (accepted) be the best desired goal for us, if we want to give a positive image? Or is your point that most would not be as likely to obsess if they defined passing as #1 which is not practicly obtainable for most of us. But if most define passing as #2 which is easier obtainable to many, then more people are likely to obsess about it? Or am I reading too much into it?

[Violetgray]

I think that many here are confused. The poll asks what passing IS, not what's preferable to passing. Being accepted by others means that they've judged you, and decided that you're o.k. even if you are a tranny. Passing means that they don't have to make that judgement at all. If someone knows that you're a male yet excepts you as a female that's great, but its not the same as passing and you will on some level be regarded as different, even if they don't think that difference is a bad thing.

[Jonianne]

I think that many here are confused. The poll asks what passing IS, not what's preferable to passing.

Hi Violet,

I would imagine most people will probably agree on #1 technically, using their "Dr. Spock" logic, however most will vote with the influence of their heart, giving a totaly different response.

I voted for #3 (comfortable w/ or w/o others acceptance), not because I pass under those conditions, but because that is where I emotionaly want to be, when I go out.

[AmandaM]

I "have to" be taken as a woman.

[CharleneT]

I think that many here are confused. The poll asks what passing IS, not what's preferable to passing. Being accepted by others means that they've judged you, and decided that you're o.k. even if you are a tranny. Passing means that they don't have to make that judgement at all. If someone knows that you're a male yet excepts you as a female that's great, but its not the same as passing and you will on some level be regarded as different, even if they don't think that difference is a bad thing.

Violet, I believe that the definition of passing can include situations where they know you are a male, but they *accept* you as a female. Otherwise, we should probably have two terms. That may be a good idea! I understand your point, and I think most people use the term as meaning that people around them do not know they are male. If you read the many posts on the subject though, lots of girls here are using a wider definition. This post/poll has been a great discussion !

C.

[Nicki B]

Looks like I didn't get the phrasing of the question right, then - I guess it might be worth waiting a little while and then trying again.. :sad:


Violet, I believe that the definition of passing can include situations where they know you are a male, but they *accept* you as a female. Otherwise, we should probably have two terms. That may be a good idea! I understand your point, and I think most people use the term as meaning that people around them do not know they are male. If you read the many posts on the subject though, lots of girls here are using a wider definition.

Charlene, I think you're talking about 'acceptance' as opposed to 'passing' (or at least my definition of passing). To me the former is far more preferable and more honest, but IMHO you can't do them both at the same time?

(That's not to say for those who consider themselves TS that acceptance in their case isn't just being seen as a woman; or man, for the FTMs - who seem to have not realised this thread was also intended for them?)

[Empress Lainie]

I was out with my tgirl gf and my gg exgf. I was dancing with several guys, and one of them asked my tgirl gf if the gg was a real girl. My gender wasn't even in question, but I think he read my tgf. That exgf wonders why I am the one who gets the compliments when she is with us. And I went braless that night in my tanktop with my perky smaller boobs, not my 44D's and bra.

[Nicki B]

My gender wasn't even in question, but I think he read my tgf.

So, Lainie, which did you vote for?

[Empress Lainie]

So, Lainie, which did you vote for?

not being taken as your birth sex:doh:

[marie354]

To me it doesn't really matter if I pass as a girl or not, just being accepted for who I am is all I ask.

I may look good to some, but not to all.
I may get respect from some, but not all.
Some say one thing and mean another, others say nothing.
Some say what they believe to be true, others do not.

It's a big world out there and everyone is entitled to their view.

I do know one thing... I'm enjoying every minute of it. (Finally.)

[Jamie001]

Passing is something that we shouldn't worry about. We just need to be confortable in our own skin and that is all that there should be to it. We need to accept ourselves first and get the heck out of the closet and then other folks will accept us. If we keep acting like we are dong something wrong, we will never make progress and never be accepted. :2c: