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valenstein
08-20-2008, 01:29 PM
I posted this as a side note in another thread, but I was curious if anyone else has read this book? I found it eye opening, it made me feel better about myself, and I learned about other types of gender variations I had never heard of:

Eve's Rib: Searching for the Biological Roots of Sex Differences - by Robert Pool (note there is a similarly titled book, but by a different author)

Review (not my review btw):

Why are the sexes different? Is it because men and women are taught by society to think and behave in sex-typical ways? Or are the sexes different by nature? For a quarter of a century, the dominant view has been that if males and females were treated the same from the time they were born, most sex differences would disappear

In Eve's Rib, Robert Pool describes a new understanding of the sexes that has been emerging over the past decade. When little boys play with trucks and little girls with dolls, or when females talk of feelings and males of facts and rules, the reasons are deeper than the sexes being taught to behave differently by society. The roots of these differences lie in the womb

Scientists know that a person's physical sex is determined in the womb by sex hormones. But unlike the Biblical story of creation, in which God created Eve from Adam's rib, the female body plan is actually the "standard" human plan, a fetus will automatically become female unless it is exposed to male hormones. And, as Eve's Rib describes, bodies are not the only things shaped by these hormones in the womb. From before birth, the brains of males and females are different in distinct, predictable ways, and these differences underlie much of the mental, emotional and psychological variation between the sexes

Eve's Rib explores its subject by talking to the scientists doing the research, many of whom are women who find themselves facing a dilemma: They themselves have had to overcome many of the stereotypes about women, and they believe strongly in equality between the sexes, yet their research indicates that in some ways the sexes will never be the same. Their resolutions of this quandary itemonstrate how sex differences can be accepted without accepting sexual inequality

The research described in Eve's Rib ranges from rats confused about their sex to humans taking tests of math and verbal ability, and from women exposed to high levels of testosterone in the womb to men who looked like girls until they reached puberty. What emerges from these disparate images is an unfinished but recognizable portrait of the real differences between men and women, a portrait that may ultimately reveal the true nature of our humanity

PamelaTX
08-20-2008, 05:35 PM
I think that scientists, ah, lets put that in quotes, "scientists" who claim that that there are no differences between male and female are just not paying attention. I have three daughters and one son and my son was utterly different from my daughters from the day he emerged from the womb.

Sadly, and tragically enough, this is not just an intellectual debate. To see how much damage science-gone-wrong can do, I urge you to read the story of David Reimer. Starting in the mid 60's he was the subject of a hitleresque experiment to change his sexual identity after a botched circumcision burned off most of his penis. This story is not for the faint of heart. I can't even bear to discuss the details here. (Do a Google search on the name to find out more.)

I for one am glad that there are fundamental differences between male and female. I am proud to be genetically male, and I am proud to also have a strong feminine side. And no, that feminine side is not just another guy.

Dragster
08-20-2008, 06:43 PM
Scientists know that a person's physical sex is determined in the womb by sex hormones. But unlike the Biblical story of creation, in which God created Eve from Adam's rib, the female body plan is actually the "standard" human plan, a fetus will automatically become female unless it is exposed to male hormones. And, as Eve's Rib describes, bodies are not the only things shaped by these hormones in the womb. From before birth, the brains of males and females are different in distinct, predictable ways, and these differences underlie much of the mental, emotional and psychological variation between the sexes


Ivy,
I always thought that one's physical sex is determined by the distribution of X and Y chromasomes, YY = female, XY = male, and that is set up at conception, on fertilisation of the ovum. Surely it's ones mental sex that is believed to be determined by the hormonal mix in the mother's womb during the foetal development phase. Yes, I believe "female" is the default condition, and "male" should result from the change to a testosterone environment in the mother's body. The timing of this change and variable concentration of hormones goes some way to explain various levels of female feelings in male TGs (and male feelings in female TGs), ranging from the mild CDer to the full TS, and homosexuals.

Tony
Tony

docrobbysherry
08-20-2008, 07:07 PM
A YX unborn becomes a male. I guess hormones effect the unborn's brain developement. Not enough male hormones, ( how does a mother get those anyway?), could affect how the unborn's gender and sexual desires develope. That could help explain CD/TG/TS/Gay males, maybe?

Now, let's take a YY child. Why do some GGs come out gay? R they also affected by male hormones in the womb? I'm sure this has been well researched.

R there any biological scientists out there reading this that has the answers? Or well read CDs?

Jodi
08-20-2008, 07:09 PM
I agree with what Tony said above. Through my education and experience in a healthcare career, I was always taught that the sex was determined as the sperm fertilizes the egg and the zygote is formed. The combination of the XX=female and the XY= female is determined at the time of conception. Hormones have nothing to do with it.

So, if the book states that sex is determined by hormones, I would question the entire validity of the books findings.

Jodi

PamelaTX
08-20-2008, 10:15 PM
It turns out, oddly enough, that the transformation from female to male in the womb is controlled by one gene on the Y chromosome, which is absent in some rare XY individuals. These individuals are female in every respect, but infertile.

There are also individuals in whom the distribution of X and Y chromosomes is unusual. There are X females who have no second X chromosome, and XXY males. I believe there is also an XYY variation, which tends to produce highly aggressive, and generally antisocial individuals. The Y chromosome by itself appears to be non-viable.

Hmmm. I seem to be wandering a bit off-topic here. I don't think any one has ever identified a crossdressing gene, but let me continue.

As far as the male/female hormones goes, both estrogen and testosterone are present in all normal individuals. Males have more testosterone and females have more estrogen, but both are required for normal sexual development. This is especially obvious in cases of females born with defective or missing ovaries. Estrogen treatments will produce breasts and the characteristic female shape, but no body hair will develop. Adding a small amount of testosterone to the mix will produce the normal female hair pattern, too much testosterone and the hair will develop the characteristic male pattern.

Oh yes, and one more thing. Male and female hormones are produced by the human body long before birth. At the onset of puberty the levels of male and female hormones increases, but the level isn't zero ever.

robyn1114
08-20-2008, 10:59 PM
sounds like an interesting book