The Elephant in the Room

[Sara Jessica]

For those of us who are not full time girls, there's a recurring theme across many posts about how certain attributes of our femininity go utterly unnoticed by friends, family and/or the public at large. I'm here to say that I could make such a reference to having smooth legs, this summer being the first hot season I have done so. No one has said a word which is what most of you report as well, whether it has to do with smooth legs/arms/chest, nails (including polish for some of who are so bold), ear piercings, etc.

Something such as smooth legs might not be likely make people think "tg" right out of the gate where other outward manifestations of femininity might do so (or multiple combinations of such presentations).

My question is, who do we think we're kidding? I believe we have "the elephant in the room" here, where everyone notices that something's up (whether tg-related or otherwise) but no one want's to say anything. This being the case, I contend that silence in our face is not to be interpreted as no one notices or cares, simply because such presentations are outside of what society currently views as "normal". The muggles notice, they may not care so much, but are more often than not polite in their silence.

***Not to be confused with the recent (& excellent) "clues" thread, not overly concerned here with what the clues are. Rather, it's about the silent reactions many of us report.

[Sallee]

I couldn't agree more But nothing said is fine. I can think what I want to think. Generally I think most folks just don't care if you shave your legs or have peaced ears. Life is just to short to worry about some one else's shaved legs at least for longer than an instant or maybe 2

[Dragonfly]

Personally...I dont think so.

I have a skin condition (luckily an incredibly mild one) called Seborrhoeic Dermatitis. I used to think EVERYONE could see the flaking skin, the redness under my eyes, the mounds of white skin-snow on my shoulders.

Noone ever did. Even when I was suffering my worst flare *ever*, another person who knew I had a condition said "I would never be able to tell if I didnt already know". Another time I had been swimming with friends and I could literally brush the flake off my arms. I mentioned it to one of my friends and he said "I can't see anything". (Luckily my SD is now well under control).

People dont pay that much attention. 96% of people we meet dont even know we exist when we aren't in their direct line of sight.

Maybe...MAYBE...one person or two may have noticed there is something 'odd' if you have a reasonably visible outward sign such as pierced ears, effeminate behaviour or are wearing a bra under your tshirt. And most likely that person wouldnt 'click' anyway.

I dont think its that people see and are too polite to say. Remember that you KNOW that you CD. Everything looks obvious to you because of that inside knowledge. Others dont expect to see such things, so in almost all cases I would say, they do not see them.

[valenstein]

I think GG's notice or are more likely to say something. Most guys don't even notice when their wife cuts her hair or gets a new outfit. Four out of five people that have ever asked me about anything they saw feminine in or on me have been women. Most times, I consider it a compliment that they noticed.

One of my GG friends made me an honorary lesbian, and I don't say that in some kind of humorous way. She doesn't know I CD, even if she was being light-hearted, for her to say it meant a lot that it occurred to her I was different.

[Dragonfly]

Hmm...again not necessarily. Over the last 2 months of 07-first 4 months of 08, I love well over a stone in weight. None of my female neighbours noticed and I see them almost daily :p

[Cathytg]

I tend to agree that folks simply do not notice something like shaved legs. This is my first summer in shorts and smooth legs and nobody has said a word or even looked. The good news is that I am comfortable this summer; the bad news is that people seem not to pay much attention to each other.

[Sara Jessica]

I dont think its that people see and are too polite to say. Remember that you KNOW that you CD. Everything looks obvious to you because of that inside knowledge. Others dont expect to see such things, so in almost all cases I would say, they do not see them.

I agree about the part that we as a group are "in the know" and therefore see these things. However, I pointed out that I believe people know that "something" is amiss, even if they don't clue in to the tg thing.

[Joanne f]

Well i do not show my legs apart from on the beach because they are crap,
but i always get that second glance or stair when i am in a supermarket shopping because of my plucked eyebrows:believe it: but then maybe i am just plain ugly :heehee:







joanne :fairy2:

[Annaliese]

My sister did and was giving me a bad time about my shaved legs, and my dad told her to back off. I was at wal-mart the other day, I was in short short's my leg's are shaved year round and a girl point me out to her mom. then went on there way. I was going in and they were leaving. No one in wal-mart payed any attenion to me that I saw. The point is I don't care any more was I that elepant in wal-mart who knows dont care.

[Shelly67]

My sister in law has certainly noticed . I shave fully , legs , arms chest the lot - and I mean the lot ..giggle . Sadly , she likes to let the elephant free once in a while with embaressing over volumed remarks ...... "Are you still shaving youre legs again then ....I wonder why and look at youre eyebrows ...goodness ! " ?
Stranger even still she like effeminate guys ....... praps I indulge her curiousity? So I tried to find out ...next time came a comment I licked my lips blew her a kiss ......bloody hell , did she colour up !
Either way I really couldnt give a monkies , so long as my nearest and dearest don't get to hear these comments ( I think they have tho , but remain indignant and quiet )
I,ve yet to deliver the all mighty atomical blow of reality with the confession of being a crossdresser . But then again , at this present time I havent the nerve , and to be honest , nor do I want to .
Tis only my wife , my glorious partner and sexy girlfriend who really needs to know anyway .
Oh and the entire network of the internet who read this .
Tis a Jumbo awakening thought.
Gimme a bun.

[christid66]

My wife used to go on at me for bushy eyebrows & prominent nasal hair. I now keep them trimmed......but not for the reason that she thinks:heehee:

However, I did trim some chest hair (at the base of my neck) and she noticed immediately and questioned me. She likes me having a hairy chest :dammit:

[Anna the Dub]

When I went home to Dublin last month to visit the family, I could see each and every one of them giving a surreptitious glance at my chest at some time during the weekend (I was in boy mode with baggy t shirts to hide my breasts). No one said anything of course, eventhough they all know about me it is just never talked about. Except my 22 yr old niece, who is 100% supportive and very interested. Bless her.

[CharleneT]

I agree with the idea that people who do notice something (like shaved legs) usually do not say anything. Often because they just don't care, but did notice, OR because they do not wish to offend and can't think of a good reason to ask. How many of them think "CD maybe???", probably very few. But the point is a good one, just because no one says anything doesn't mean they do not notice. You can carry this idea over to the "passing" thing, you may be spotted, but the person may just not say a word. Hence, no comments doesn't mean you passed. Which is why I try and not worry about the whole mess....

Charlene

[Veronica 1]

The only person who ever commented to me was the bosses jerk son at work. I was wearing a T-shirt and he loudly exclaims, "WTF, you have no hair on your arms, I mean like nothing". As I had also recently shaved my head, I had to comment that if he liked it so much, my eyebrows were the only hair on my body. End of discussion and no one has ever commented since.

[tamarav]

I think the cause of the elephant remaining in the room so much is that people are so afraid of being embarrassed. Either they think of what they would want to say and realize that it may come back and bite them or they realize that they are opening a door that could lead to them becoming the target.

Then of course you have the person that has no social grace whatsoever and just blurts out.

Part of life...

[Joy Carter]

I gave up on caring what others may think or say. I did chicken out going to the Md's under dressed. Call me a coward if you want. Just that my whole family uses the same MD. Last year I was on my lawn tractor, when the neighbor stopped to talk. I don't think he even noticed my shaved legs.

[Bev06 GG]

I think its more a case of being awfully polite and not wanting to embarass anyone. Of course people notice. Even busy people notice something slightly out of the ordinary but people can be quite fickle at times, so theyd rather gossip with the next person they see than confront you with something so personal . After all it might cause an embarassing answer, one of which they maybe couldn't handle.

Bev

[Deidra Cowen]

I would bet more people notice and don't say anything that we think! I have had two people at work casually mention guys with smooth arms (no hair). I think they were feeling me out and it def got me paranoid! I do wear long sleeves to work but I guess even a long sleeve will reveal no hair around the wrist and of course the hands.

Oh well...not going to grow it back. I guess I really need to buy one of those racing bikes and use that as an excuse!!! I think regular guys will think thats a bit wierd but not as bad as being a Tgirl. :devil:

It blows having to hide stuff....but I need my job as a guy with 2 kids about to hit college!

[Ruth]

I really don't know the answer to this and it's kind of hard to find out. I have full time shaven legs and have worn shorts all summer (if you could call it a summer...) with no comments from anywhere.
Are they thinking "Hmmm, shaved legs, what does that mean?". Should I ask?
"I was wondering if you noticed my shaved legs. What d'you think?"
Perhaps it's better not to know.

[CharleneT]

I think its more a case of being awfully polite and not wanting to embarass anyone. Of course people notice. Even busy people notice something slightly out of the ordinary but people can be quite fickle at times, so theyd rather gossip with the next person they see than confront you with something so personal . After all it might cause an embarassing answer, one of which they maybe couldn't handle.

Bev


BINGO! very well said !

[Jolene]

We just have to be ourselves. Someone is always going to notice something about any of us and talk to someone else behind our backs. Seems to be human nature.
Jolene :)

Your post said it better than i could have Bev.

[Jenny J]

I went into work on an off day in shorts and forgot about my smooth legs. I must have talked to a dozen people, guys and girls and no one said a thing.
The subject still hasn't been brought up and my co-workers are pretty observant.

[Melinda G]

I have often felt that just because no one says anything, doesn't mean they don't notice. Many won't notice, but I'm sure a few do. However, there are enough bikers, swimmers, body builders, and others who shave their legs and bodies, to muddy the waters, and make someone who does notice, unsure of your motives.
I last shaved myself, in mid June, and then let it grow in for a few summer activities, that required shorts, and an upcoming VA physical. But I was quite hairless well into July, and received no comments, although I wore shorts all summer. I no longer worry about it, but I do let the hair grow in for several weeks from time to time, for various reasons.

[Sophia de la luz]

I have had some weird looks at work for my hairless legs. A neighboring building owner was introducing his partner to me... big burly guy... and he kept looking down at my legs as we talked. I had shorts on and boots with those cute little socks that stay below the ankle. My legs were swept clean. My pat answer if someone actually says something (which no one has), is that I do a lot of swimming (which I do). And that's cool, wearing a speedo to the pool, being completely hairless and fitting in.

If hairless legs are too much for them to handle, I feel sorry for them. Life's too short to get hung up on stuff like that.

Sophia

[Melinda G]

Ya know, if the big burly guy kept looking at your legs, it's possible he was turned on. Are you one of those guys with great legs, that look better than some women. If the brain likes what it sees, nature can take over. Just a thought.

[Angie G]

My leg are always shaved if no one says anything I'm happy if they do Isay I shave them and that's it. :hugs:
Angie

[morgan51]

legs are shaved as are arms and eyebrows shaped somewhat also ears pierced wearing acrylics all the time. I'm sure all around me notice just are too polite to remark about my looks, It really is a matter of attitude and confidence. Morgan

[Melissa A.]

Another member posted this a couple of years ago, so I cant take credit for it, but I have used it, and it got laughs!

If some guy commenrts about your lack of body hair, anywhere, just respond, "Well, I'm just more evolved than you are."

Worked for me, then again, I don't know if he knew what evolved meant!

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Sara Jessica]

I agree with the idea that people who do notice something (like shaved legs) usually do not say anything. Often because they just don't care, but did notice, OR because they do not wish to offend and can't think of a good reason to ask. How many of them think "CD maybe???", probably very few. But the point is a good one, just because no one says anything doesn't mean they do not notice. You can carry this idea over to the "passing" thing, you may be spotted, but the person may just not say a word. Hence, no comments doesn't mean you passed. Which is why I try and not worry about the whole mess....

Charlene

Very well said Charlene.

Part of my thought here is based on a peeve of mine. There are those out there who in their well-meaning encouragement give advice to do this or that because no one will even notice. I'm trying to point out that many DO NOTICE, silence doesn't mean you're getting away with something. One has to be very careful in making decisions to do things which enhance their female presentation but are also visible in guy mode.

And yes, the passing thing is a perfect segue. Aside from the exact same analogy applying (people notice but often stay silent, hence the goal is better described as "blending"), I also contend that the muggles have no clue as to where we are on the tg spectrum. This is why I feel strongly about representing well when we go out and about, whether one is a CD or TS or anywhere in between. We make lasting impressions because we're rarely seen.

[marny]

I didn't notice men with shaved legs until I started shaving mine. There are many for all sorts of reasons. I shave chest, armpits and tummy as well. withthat and the pink toenails I think my friends have a clue . Maybe they'le speak up next year!

[paulaN]

When I was at the blues fest in Rockland Me. this year. One of the performers said something about men wanting to be woman in her dedication of the song. Well the very good female friend of mine was sitting next to me and she snaped her head to look at me when it was said. I of course ignored her. I have not talked to her about my little elephant yet but I should. Also that's what my wife has called my cd'ing. I think more of our close contacts notice more than we might think.

[CD Susan]

I tend to think that most people don't pick up on these little signals we send out. Sure some do and don't say any thing and I respect them for that. But it seems to me that most people are so caught up in thier own world that they do not notice these things. Recently a friend commented on an earring that I was wearing in my left ear. His initial comment was "did you lose a bet or something" I responded with no and said it is not uncommon for a guy to wear earrings anymore. That was all that was said, he did not even notice my shaved legs and long fingernails with glossy clear nail polish. I think I educated him to some extent that day. At least I hope I did.

[Claire3]

my breast cream has given me a noticeable cleavage wearing low tops,just waiting to see how the rest develops before i worry about how things show up at work:)

[Satrana]

WOW! look at the paranoia on display here. I feel very sorry for all the men who have naturally got little body hair which I reckon probably amounts to about 25% of all men. They must go through life with everyone around them thinking they are gay! Life must be hell for naturally hairless men.......

What utter nonsense. The only people who would ever notice body shaves are CDs and their SOs who have the inside knowledge and thus are convinced every little detail shows, and those persons who have known you for a long time and know you to be a hairy person. Everyone else does not have a clue and would not care anyway.

I have had my beard lasered off and nobody notices that I no longer have a 5 o'clock stubble. The only hair removal that is noticed is eyebrow shaping because they frame the eyes and so are always in direct vision.

[Sara Jessica]

WOW! look at the paranoia on display here. I feel very sorry for all the men who have naturally got little body hair which I reckon probably amounts to about 25% of all men. They must go through life with everyone around them thinking they are gay! Life must be hell for naturally hairless men.......

What paranoia? And who said anything about hairless equating to being gay???


What utter nonsense. The only people who would ever notice body shaves are CDs and their SOs who have the inside knowledge and thus are convinced every little detail shows, and those persons who have known you for a long time and know you to be a hairy person. Everyone else does not have a clue and would not care anyway.

Nonsense is what your statement is. You know this how? I guess you have taken an exhaustive poll of all who encounter you to learn the average person has never noticed you being shaved or whatever feminine manifestations you present full time. In your effort to mock the discussion you have completely missed the point. It is very safe to say that people do notice things like guys with shaved legs, arms, chest, whatever, along with more obvious presentations such as painted nails, shaped brows or pierced ears. Let's face it, these things are not the norm out there. I've seen a double-take here and there when it comes to my legs. I'm not kidding myself to suggest no one notices such a thing. Yet as has been the common point throughout this thread, people are generally polite in not saying anything.

[TommiTN]

I have been shaved and in shorts all summer as I've said in previous threads about this subject. So far I think only one person has noticed. It was a guy with a girl who were customers at a convenience store. He kept leering at me and looking at my legs (probably my best feature). It actually made me a bit uncomfortable because he looked like he just got out of the slam on work release. I just stared him down with a "What?" look on my face. Most people just don't notice shaved legs/arms; if you're observant you can tell if they do notice even if they don't say anything.

[Jocelyn Renee]

Certainly a percentage of people do notice shaved bodies, shaped eyebrows, nails, etc. yet don't say anything for various reasons. The question then shifts to one of how important their opinion is to us. Everyone should decide on these modifications based on their own needs and tolerance for dissent. After 30 years or so I got tired of allowing the thoughts and feelings of strangers to dictate my life. The opinions of my inner circle matter to me a great deal, but I have a hard time understanding how strangers and people on the periphery of my life come to believe that they should have a say in how I manage my own life. I'm not even sure why they care in the first place.

[Satrana]

What paranoia? And who said anything about hairless equating to being gay??? Lay-persons know nothing about transgenderness. If they observe any feminine characteristics in a man they immediately think gay not TG.


Nonsense is what your statement is. You know this how? I guess you have taken an exhaustive poll of all who encounter you to learn the average person has never noticed you being shaved or whatever feminine manifestations you present full time. This is an open forum for opinions, I need not back it up with polls anymore than you need do when you present your opinions. But since we are on the subject if you read the comments of the many CDs including myself who do shave and consistently report that few if any people notice then that is the best evidence we have. And as I pointed out how can anyone differentiate us from naturally hairless men who dont seem to suffer from this paranoia.

CDs and our SOs are renowned for being paranoid because CDing is such a social taboo. Nobody wants to deal with the stigma and derision unless they are prepared for it.

And you know what? if someone named 20 male colleagues of mine and asked me to quantify which ones had hairy arms and legs, I probably not be able to confirm any of them. Body hair is generally only noticed on a man when he is excessively hairy otherwise it is about as interesting and memorable as the color of socks he is wearing.

This thread should be renamed "the mouse in the room".

[Misstake]

Im a high school teacher and my shaved legs have been commented on a few times. Kids can be pretty blunt at times and a group of girls asked me if I shaved my legs. I just looked them in the eye and said "of course!". They just giggled so I walked off.

This week, however, one of the (younger) female staff asked me if I shave my legs. I usually only shave in winter when I wear long pants (its winter now here), but I was wearing shorts as we were doing sport. I said no ... I wax them (which I do). She was actually really impressed and we talked about the various merits of waxing versus shaving ... I asked her if she finds guys with shaved legs a turn off and she told me "no .. shaved legs on guys is hot ... besides, you have great legs!".

I'm married, so Im not going to pursue this ... but it certainly put a spring in my step!

So, I believe most people do notice and just think its none of their business (which it isnt) so say nothing.

[Sara Jessica]

This is an open forum for opinions, I need not back it up with polls anymore than you need do when you present your opinions. But since we are on the subject if you read the comments of the many CDs including myself who do shave and consistently report that few if any people notice then that is the best evidence we have. And as I pointed out how can anyone differentiate us from naturally hairless men who dont seem to suffer from this paranoia.

I said that because you were so matter-of-fact, that "The only people who would ever notice..." and suggesting that any viewpoint otherwise is nonsense.

The common theme that is reported by those who present with a feminine characteristic (or two, or three) is that people are silent. You cannot say with all certainty they do not notice and that is the gist of my post. I never said that something like shaved legs = automatic perception that one is tg. However, you start piling on more outward expressions and there are going to be some who will get it. I don't buy the statement that lay-persons know nothing about tg. Heck, if they equate such presentation as gay, well you proved my point...people notice!!!

And I'm not suggesting that you are guilty of this by virtue of the thoughts you are presenting in this thread but there are those out there who are running around in their pink fog saying "shave this, pierce this, paint that...everything is hunky dory and no one will notice/care/say anything". Perhaps this is their experience, perhaps they have little or nothing to lose should they be outed. But such blanket statements are dangerous to tg girls out there who are just starting to peek out from the closet. This is what I am getting at. Silence doesn't mean squat, nor does it necessarily mean we are seen for what we really are. It is simply about being aware of the other side of the coin in considering the decisions we make.

[sherri]

I have slender, girly legs that I've been self-conscious about all my life, and have never worn shorts, at least in guy mode. But this summer my legs are really in shape and tan -- and shaved, of course -- and when a friend told me I should wear shorts, I decided to do just that. Ok, so I've worn shorts all summer and I can state unequivocally that people do notice shaved legs on a man, and I think the more fem your legs are, the more they notice. I know they notice because I watch their eyes and I see them noticing. But after a whole summer, only one person has commented, and that was a close friend. Everybody else just goes about their business as if they hadn't just taken a hard look.

I think that any distinctive manifestation of femininity gets noticed out in public -- legs, nails, eyebrows, whatever -- even if we're in drab. And I think that anyone who doesn't realize that either isn't very observant or is kidding herself. Just because most people don't like awkwardness or confrontation doesn't mean they don't notice atypical behavior or appearances.

By the way, the one friend who asked me about my shaved legs? I just said "Yes" and smiled, with no further explanation. I figure that if she doesn't like the idea no amount of explanation is going to make a difference, and if it does sort of appeal to her, even in secret, well then, I like the idea that she might wonder what it would feel like ... :battingeyelashes:

[Deanna2]

I go with the view that very few people notice things about other people unless the feature really stands out. Such as red painted toenails on a guy. A number of folks here have commented about shaved legs and how easily they get noticed. Well if the rest of you is hairy, then I guess shaved legs will stand out (pun intended).

The other day three people (a woman and two guys) from the local council came round on some heritage project being done in my area. I had a pair of femme tracksuit pants - tight round the thighs and slightly flared at the bottom. They were on my property for about an hour while we walked around looking for various things - none of which were in evidence anyway. I didn't see any raised eyebrows or 'knowing' looks between them. They could well have said things to each other later in their car, but who cares.

The only time I've been pinged was by a cousin with whom I was having lunch in an outside cafe on a very bright, sunny day and my clear nail polish must have been shining in the sun. She noticed that I had on clear nail polish and asked 'is that nail polish?' I said that I had been varnishing some old furniture and couldn't get all the varnish off. We immediately on to another topic and she never mentioned it again.

Many comments on this forum have been made about acting within 'normal' behaviour. Do that and no one will even know you are there.

[gennee]

I hardly have any hair on my legs so that's the least of my concerns :D. I have gotten compliments from women mostly. Doesn't matter to me whether or not I'm read.

Gennee

[vikki2020]

LOL-- just the other day, my daughter--13 going on 19--checked out my recently trimmed legs-- and said "mom, do you know your husband shaves his legs"??I knew it would happen eventually, and everyone kind of blew it off,but still a little awkward for a while.Now, I have to keep them trimmed to the same level!:heehee: