Need proof of what causes us to be trans

[Taylor105]

Can someone point me to a link or even better a good scientific video on Youtube for me to show to someone who is trying to tell me that she doesn't believe we are born the way we are. This particular person is trying to say it's psychological and I am steaming f*cking mad right now. I need something that isn't in her words "biased". Like a video or something that is not made by someone who is trans. I know I have seen a vid somewhere that talks about how this happens in the womb but I can't find it. Kieron, if you are around help a brother out. You are the master of linkage. lol Peace out, Taylor

[valenstein]

Hi Taylor,

I don't have a video, but I tout this book a lot: Eve's Rib: Searching for the Biological Roots of Sex Differences - by Robert Pool (note there is a similarly titled book, but by a different author)

Most of the book is based on scientific observations, and it does include several references to transgenderism. It's not the final word, but it is very scientific in its approach. One thing your naysayer may find in this book is that much of the "psychology" of gender is triggered by hormones in the womb, chemical pathways to the brain and genetics.

There is also a documentary about David Reimer, a genetic boy who, due to a medical procedure gone wrong, was raised as a girl. The doctor claimed he could reprogram the boy into living life as a girl, sadly with tragic results. It is not so much a statement about transgenderism (though they reference it several times), but that trying to rewire a person's internal gender does not work. You may find it on the internet somewhere, I saw it on TV.

[John]

google 'transsexual neurology hypothalamus' (sp?), it gets loads of likes to neuropych studdies and essays and the like that may be helpfull.
(I'm too nakered to trall through them all now, but I might sumerise them tomoro)

Unfortunatly, nothing can yet proove what causes us to be transsexual; presumable the scientists will tell us when they find out.

[valenstein]

I hope I'm not carrying this too far off topic, but personally, I don't want proof. Science already has "proof" that if you were not born with a penis, you are "not a boy". What if science could link transgenderism to a specific gene or chromosome, and then you were told you did not have that gene, would you think, "oops, I guess I was wrong?"

At least in current physics theory, there is a principle of uncertainty, meaning that no matter how much information you have to determine an outcome, there is always a chance that the outcome will be different than what is expected.

I view it as being on a sliding scale, sometimes I think that scale is tipped so heavily in the womb that people are born with it, some people never realize it, and some happily choose not to embrace it, some people make that choice as life develops.

I was born male, but there are parts of being male I choose not to embrace, and parts I do embrace. There are days when that scale tips, some days i feel more male, some days more female. Point is, we here don't need proof for ourselves, we already know.

As far as proving it to others, I understand the need to convince, I do it all the time. I am going to bet that the person you are trying to convince believes in something strongly that has no proof, be it religion, the human soul, flying saucers, whatever.

Ask them to "prove" love. You can say you love someone, do things for them, protect them, even give up your life, it doesn't prove the actual concept of love. Couldn't you also argue that love is purely psychological?

[Cai]

My response to the "what causes this?" question is always the same: I don't care.

It doesn't matter to me whether this is a genetic condition, a hormonal imbalance in the womb, a psychological thing, or even an "unconscious decision" that I made.

My identity is still valid.

I don't know if there's proof, and like valenstein, I'm not sure I want proof. I know who I am, and that's good enough for me.

[Violetgray]

Trans people are born with it... as opposed to what, exactly? Who would choose to be a transsexual? Certainly not transsexuals, who would rather be born right in the first place. Who would give up family, friends, job, house and all their Playstation games for any reason other than they HAD to? That having been said, I used to think it was genetic, but I know identical twins, one who is a transman, one who is not. If their genes were the same then they both should be trans. I think what happened was that they got a different dose of hormones in the womb. Either way, being trans in NOT a choice.

But yeah I agree with Valenstein, that Johns Hopkins case she mentioned was very highly publicized, and was a huge example that internal gender isn't a social construct, and therefore not changeable. Though to be fair there are quite a few people who might think they are transgendered, but arent.

[MJ]

Trans people are born with it... as opposed to what, exactly? Who would choose to be a transsexual? Certainly not transsexuals, who would rather be born right in the first place. Who would give up family, friends, job, house and all their Playstation games for any reason other than they HAD to? That having been said, I used to think it was genetic, but I know identical twins, one who is a transman, one who is not. If their genes were the same then they both should be trans. I think what happened was that they got a different dose of hormones in the womb. Either way, being trans in NOT a choice.

But yeah I agree with Valenstein, that Johns Hopkins case she mentioned was very highly publicized, and was a huge example that internal gender isn't a social construct, and therefore not changeable. Though to be fair there are quite a few people who might think they are transgendered, but arent.

thank you Violet
very well said :hugs:

[Taylor105]

Okay this person I am talking about seems to think that if we all got the right type of counseling that we could eventually live in the sex we were born with. I actually got into a heated argument about it not being a choice. How most of us know from the time we are tiny toddlers that we are the opposite from what our body is. That gender has nothing whatsoever to do with sexuality. And that is what pisses me off the most. That people confuse the two.

And yes, she thinks it's a choice we are making. The only reason I asked if anyone knew of any links I could show where science has proved that it is a truly physical thing and not mental is because she wants to see that. And I know I had seen a video on Youtube at one time explaining how the fetus in the womb sometimes gets washed with the wrong chromosomes in the brain versus the body. I am not wording that intelligently at all but hopefully you get what I mean.

In my opinion....noone would choose to be this way. I get jealous of people who were born with their brains and bodies matching up. I hate that every single day I have to bind and will have to spend thousands of dollars to get the body that I felt I was cheated out of at birth. I get angry that I have to defend who I am all the time. And for myself I don't want or need proof. Because I know who I am and am not confused in any way. But she wants some proof. She claims she is trying to understand and she herself is confused.

Some days she is totally supportive and then other days she thinks that if we all got the right type of therapy we could live happily in the bodies we were born with. I have told her countless times that many of us have been through years and years of therapy and it didn't do shit. That I personally was suicidal and starved my body when I was suppressing my true identity. I would cut myself to the bone...to absolute ribbons. And since coming out as Taylor I have never been happier. I have a friend online who is FTM and a child and his parents make him go to Catholic school and are not supportive at all. He has to wear the freaking skirt because of dress code. And he is so depressed I worry about him harming himself. If this was something that therapy could fix I don't think there would be too many trans people in the world. I mean before we can even start changing our bodies to match our brains there is mandatory therapy. In some places anyway. I don't know what more to say at this time. Thanks for listening.

[Nicki B]

And yes, she thinks it's a choice we are making. The only reason I asked if anyone knew of any links I could show where science has proved that it is a truly physical thing and not mental is because she wants to see that. And I know I had seen a video on Youtube at one time explaining how the fetus in the womb sometimes gets washed with the wrong chromosomes in the brain versus the body. I am not wording that intelligently at all but hopefully you get what I mean.

Taylor, I fear you will be disappointed - there is NO definitive proof, at least not yet?

There are certainly plenty of theories, the hormone one is definitely one (you can't get washed with chromosomes, but there are such things as 'mosaics'; animals, including humans, that have different DNA in different parts of their bodies - there was even a CSI episode based around them). Development of the foetus certainly is dependent on the hormones it's washed with, too.

There is also increasing (but not definitive) evidence of physical brain differences in TG people, but that's not a reason, it just shows something has happened?


Somehow I think your 'person' believes being gay is a choice, too. Point out to her aversion therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversion_therapy) was tried for a long time to 'cure' gay people - and it never, ever worked. All it did was produce damaged gay people. It was certainly tried on TG's too - that never worked either. :sad:

Ask her if she thinks left-handed people choose that, as well - or will she accept that some of us are born differently, there is no one 'template' we are all born to follow? Nature always creates diversity and evolves..



That having been said, I used to think it was genetic, but I know identical twins, one who is a transman, one who is not. If their genes were the same then they both should be trans. I think what happened was that they got a different dose of hormones in the womb.

Surely, in the same womb, they be bathed in exactly the same hormones? Even identical twins have differences in DNA - that's why they're different people, not clones? :strugglin

[Amy Lynn3]

I agree, Violet said it very well. Some naysayers say we are sick and need to see a doctor. Why should we ? The doctor can't give us a pill to cure the Tg-ness and all the therapy in the world will not cure it either.

Taylor, I can't give you the information you ask for, but I know what is, just is and we can't change it. Your friend sounds like she has times of being closed minded. Maybe if you have not done so already you could show her this thread. At least she would know the world has plenty of tg folks, of the same opinion as yours.

[Niya W]

Okay this person I am talking about seems to think that if we all got the right type of counseling that we could eventually live in the sex we were born with.

Wait is that the same type of person that would say this



Okay this person I am talking about seems to think that if we all got the right type of counseling that we could eventually live as hetrosexual ??

There alot of that we don't know. Can you tell me why some people can eat any thing they want? Why some people never feel full when they eat ?

[sterling12]

And let me guess Taylor, the person who thought that we could be cured? Did she have a Fundamentalist Background? many of The "Fundies" believe that all of their so called "perversions" can be cured with counseling and prayer. Some of The Mega-Churches now have Ministers that are assigned to Helping to "cure" Gays and TG Folk.

As mentioned earlier, there is no definitive study that will claim that being transgendered is a thing you are born with. At this point, they haven't found a genetic link. What we do have is a lot of anecdotal evidence. While in School I learned that virtually all children have no long-term memories before the age of approximately four years. But, so many of us can relate episodes of dressing, or opposite sex behavior from around that time. It seems likely that for many, if not most, the urge to TG appears at a very young age.

My question for that person who believes you can be cured: "Why do you care?" "Can't you learn to mind your own business?" "Maybe, I don't want to be cured, maybe I'm happy as I am?" It probably won't shut them up, but you will have the satisfaction of dismissing them from your mind.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[valenstein]

Taylor, I can give you scientific examples of people to show her in the sense that not all people are born male or female as defined by what most people think of, this may not be exactly what you want, but it's proof to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha_reductase_deficiency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_adrenal_hyperplasia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol

I didn't even post all of them, but these some of the more common conditions, and the last one is caused by science/medicine itself.

More evidence:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/31/science/31conv.html

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/TOPIC2789.HTM

http://www.cjmed.net/html/20061217_3.html?PHPSESSID=3649cef105a75659a0500dac e8ab0fc3

Lastly, from the American Psychologoical Association:

Is being transgender a mental disorder?

A psychological condition is considered a mental disorder only if it causes distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their transgender feelings and traits to be distressing or disabling, which implies that being transgender does not constitute a mental disorder per se. For these people, the significant problem is finding the resources, such as hormone treatment, surgery, and the social support they need, in order to express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. However, some transgender people do find their transgender feelings to be distressing or disabling. This is particularly true of transsexuals, who experience their gender identity as incongruent with their birth sex or with the gender role associated with that sex. This distressing feeling of incongruity is called gender dysphoria.



I could go on, but I'll let you digest this stuff first...

[Katie P]

I'm highly recommending this book: 'Sex, Gender and Sexuality: 21st century transformations'. It's by Tracie O'Keefe whos is a hypnotherapist, psychotherapist and counsellor specialising in sex, gender and sexuality identities, and she really knows her physical/biological stuff when it comes to different variations of sex and their developments.

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Gender-Sexuality-Tracie-OKeefe/dp/0952948222/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222629897&sr=8-3

And Taylor, I personally really really would not bother with this woman. If she's so curious then she can go and find out about things herself...:straightface: