Feminine & Masculine gender

[DemonicDaughter]

Yes, its me again, your local maniac on the loose with too much time to ponder the complexities of the quarks that make up our existence.

As long as we keep reminding ourselves of the degree of differences between each other, the harder it will be to accept things as a community as a whole.

Examples?

There are genetically born females on here who don't identify as being feminine. They identify as being a masculine gender but weren't born with male anatomy. Under the definition that we are the gender of our anatomy, one would consider all FtM's as GGs. This is unacceptable as the majority (if not all at least on this forum) only identify as a masculine gender.

There are some genetically born males on here who identify as having a feminine gender but weren't born with female anatomy. Again, if going by assigned anatomy, they would be called males... they aren't. They identify as a feminine gender.

There are those on here that feel they remain as they were born, male or female.

There's a huge list of identities that can be found on this site. All of them make up our wonderful community. I think that we need to stop separating ourselves with such a fine line because all it does is keep things at "us vs them". Bad juju.

Let me extrapolate a bit...

To me, Kayla's gender is feminine. It has nothing to do with her anatomy. She identifies as feminine. I dislike comments from GGs and CDers alike that constantly try to shove her back into a masculine gender just because of anatomy. I consider her the same gender as I am. Same with many of my friends on here, either born with or without the matching anatomy.

Have I lost ya'll?

I guess to simplify it as best as possible...

There is way too much concern about who was born with what anatomy for anyone to accept each other as the gender they most identify with.

[deja true]

Well, to me, that's one of the main reasons I hang around this place. I want very badly the reassurance of deja's feminine personality, even if "what's-his-name's" sometimes peeks through. But, in truth, I rather like the hint of assertiveness that the maleness brings to deja. 'Cos that's the kind of person (girl person or male person or whatever) that I'm happiest being. Strong women, assured women are my icons, though I do like the very feminine, too, if there's a show of intellect.

I'll accept any one on their terms here....except maybe ...one!

I still have a hard time thinking of Joy as a Labrador Retreiver! :D

[MJ]

DD you have way too much time to kill or ponder. but you are right for me i only go by the name. i only see the boys and the girls it gets so complicated otherwise .
if you recall i sent you a pm asking you if you were the cd'r or the gg ?? i respect what i see it makes life less complex

[Deborah Jane]

Good post DD, too much time on your hands well spent!
Does this mean i,m really a girl then? :battingeyelashes:

[Please say YES!!!]

[glitrtoes]

Them quarks have gender too don't they? up or down, strange or charmed, something like that? course those are only labels, and who knows if they identify with them lables :P

[TGMarla]

There's a huge list of identities that can be found on this site. All of them make up our wonderful community. I think that we need to stop separating ourselves with such a fine line because all it does is keep things at "us vs them". Bad juju.

But...but....but what will we do with all those categorization and terminology threads???? :sad:
(you know...I'm a GM that is a FTM CD, straight, non-goth, with TS tendencies, blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda......)

How's 'bout we all just recognize each other as "people" and who recognize that a transgendered personality does not make one odd, but rather as one who is more open minded, accepting of others, and not molded into one gender stereotype? Works for me, guys and gals....err....um....people!

I don't mind being called a man. But I wish I had the absolute security of being able to tell others...any others...that I have a large feminine contingency about my being, and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I am a worthy person, with much to give in this world, despite the fact that I like to wear dresses and present as a woman. Too long mainstream society has regarded women as second-class citizens. They arent. In fact, in many cases, they are better people than most men. Transgendered men are not lesser beings, and transgendered women are not freaks. They are people with the same concerns, interests, and responsibilities as anyone else. But they see, and they know, that living as only one gender is to live half an existence.

I am a man. I am a woman. I am a person.

[Sophia de la luz]

Sex is anatomy, measurable reality. And there are people in the grey zone between clear male and clear female.

Gender is socially defined.

So, we have a biological reality and a social reality. And, sometimes they don't line up parallel.

I'm a guy(have a penis) who identifies myself(at times) as a woman.
This is different then being a guy who wears woman's clothes. This would be a sex/gender sameness with an interest in dressing up.

And I agree that any serious bickering about this stuff is totally ridiculous. Is it necessary to take ourselves that seriously?

[docrobbysherry]

( No pun intended!). The fact that humans seem programed to think, "us and them". It isn't just Cds either, of course. Race, religion, color, creed, age, sex, attractiveness, money, where u live, etc., etc.

These r ALL things we notice about others. ESPECIALLY if they r different from us! The fact that we notice the differences is the problem! If we were truly accepting of everyone else, we wouldn't!

Probably dates back to our tribal days. When it was VERY important to know who was "us", and who was "them"!:eek:

[suzy cool]

Sorry DD but I don't agree with you. There is NOT a fine line between CD and TS. There is a big difference from one end of the spectrum to the other with all shades inbetween. To try and make it all sweetness and light by clumping us all into one lump is not rational or sensible. It's an attempt to sanitise a very complex subject by eliminating the part you don't understand or feel comfortable with. If someone wants to identify as female then good luck to them regardless of their born gender and the same to anyone identifying as male. But some of us only identify with a given gender given our mood, day of the week or whether the house is clear of folk for two hours. Identifying does not make it so, and you are always going to get someone who sees a spade that looks and acts destinctly spade-like no matter what other garden implement it might identify with.

[TGMarla]

I don't think that's her point. For many of us, in our daily lives our true gender identity is a closely guarded secret. For others, it is a true need to always identify with, and even present as, a gender that does not reflect what our chomosomes and genitalia would suggest. Either way, we have a common understanding of what is is like for people like us, no matter what your position is on the bell curve. So rather than categorize and subdivide, can we not have commonality and unity?

[suzanne]

I try to keep this simple in my mind. You know; small things for small containers. Sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears. I'm sure someone will point out exceptions to this rule but it's a good place to start.

[Anna the Dub]

I try to keep this simple in my mind. You know; small things for small containers. Sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears. I'm sure someone will point out exceptions to this rule but it's a good place to start.

This works for me. My gender between my ears is female, my sex between my legs currently is male although it is not complete as some of it has already been removed, and eventually it will be female.

[Cathytg]

I had dinner with a lady of feminine gender and male sex. She told me - and I never will forget it - Sex is down there (points to groin) and gender is up here (points to head) So, regarding sex, we can discuss male and female. Regarding gender, we discuss masculine and feminine. Where you put yourself and what you call yourself is your business, but sex and gender, while related, are separate things entirely.

Thank you, Laci.

[Kate Simmons]

Once again we must be on the same wavelength DD, I've been thinking about this very thing myself. It makes good sense to accept everyone for who they are and the gender they identify as mostly because I believe we are exactly who we are supposed to be and are who we are for a reason. The main lesson is acceptance of diversity because without diversity, this planet would be a pretty dull place to live on indeed.

Diversity, however, causes controversy, mostly because most people are just too damned lazy to see it for what it is. It is a necessary part of human existence and is additive rather than subtractive like divisions among people or groups of people are. WE, however, know the difference and it is incumbent upon us to value and utilize that to our collective advantage and our unity of purpose.

I read a lot of stuff here about being unified, taking it to the people, becoming highly visible and fighting for our rights as a community. All fine and good but we have to get it straight with ourselves first, otherwise we lose the battle before it begins. It starts right here folks and don't think for a minute that this Forum is not watched by the "powers that be" who would put everyone in a convenient little box.

Showing who we are and what we are made of takes effort though and can sometimes be difficult with the pressures of life, especially recently with everything going on. No doubt in my mind that the foremost experts on CD, TS, TG and relationship issues are right here. Despite obvious physical differences and gender ID, we are more alike than we may think in many ways. If we are to move forward, we need to preserve that comradery and kinship and accept one another for who we are.:)

[DemonicDaughter]

Sorry DD but I don't agree with you. There is NOT a fine line between CD and TS...

First, I never said there was. "Fine line" was in reference to the continuous break down even within already numerously divided categories. I completely agree that there is a huge difference between someone who identifies as a crossdresser and someone who identifies as transsexual and/or transgendered. That is way this post deals specifically with those that identify as a gender different than their genitalia.

Second, I think Marla said it quite well with:


I don't think that's her point. For many of us, in our daily lives our true gender identity is a closely guarded secret. For others, it is a true need to always identify with, and even present as, a gender that does not reflect what our chomosomes and genitalia would suggest. Either way, we have a common understanding of what is is like for people like us, no matter what your position is on the bell curve. So rather than categorize and subdivide, can we not have commonality and unity?


I try to keep this simple in my mind. You know; small things for small containers. Sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears. I'm sure someone will point out exceptions to this rule but it's a good place to start.

And that is a great way of expressing it. I see no difference in those that identify with having a feminine gender and those born with the female sex organs who also identify with as a feminine gender. Just as I don't see any difference between those with a masculine gender born with or without the male genitalia.


Once again we must be on the same wavelength DD, I've been thinking about this very thing myself. It makes good sense to accept everyone for who they are and the gender they identify as mostly because I believe we are exactly who we are supposed to be and are who we are for a reason.

...Despite obvious physical differences and gender ID, we are more alike than we may think in many ways...

Agreed :) And I'm very proud to call you a member of my gender.

[LilSissyStevie]

Most people think in terms of two lousy little genders (masculine/feminine) but I think there are infinite possible genders. I don't mean some kind of linear "spectrum" between 100% masculine and 100% feminine (whatever that may be) but an infinite dimensional quality. What's more, I can be any one of them at different times or all of them at the same time.

How's that for a bunch of BS?:devil:
:love:

[suzy cool]

I read your post again and may have misunderstood what you were getting at. I haven't seen the references where there is "us and them" so I'm at a bit of a loss. Who are the us and them you are suggesting we avoid pointing fingers at? If you mean FtM and MtF then yes I completely agree with you that there should be a common understanding simply because of the nature of the situation we all find ourselves in, either part time or not. Is someone wishes to be seen as a certain gender then it is only polite to go along with their wishes regardless of physical form, at least on a forum where their intentions are obvious. However, I must have missed the posts that caused you to make your initial post.

[DemonicDaughter]

I read your post again and may have misunderstood what you were getting at. I haven't seen the references where there is "us and them" so I'm at a bit of a loss. Who are the us and them you are suggesting we avoid pointing fingers at? If you mean FtM and MtF then yes I completely agree with you that there should be a common understanding simply because of the nature of the situation we all find ourselves in, either part time or not. Is someone wishes to be seen as a certain gender then it is only polite to go along with their wishes regardless of physical form, at least on a forum where their intentions are obvious. However, I must have missed the posts that caused you to make your initial post.

"us and them" was in reference to us as humans attempting to separate ourselves from others.

There is no specific post that caused me to create this thread. I did it because its how I feel and felt like sharing. Tis all.

[PamelaTX]

I think that the little boxes labeled "masculine" and "feminine" are too small for many of us, and don't really fit anyone precisely. There are personality traits that fit into these boxes, but real people have many different traits, and usually have a healthy sampling from both boxes. Crossdressers even more so than most.

I think masculine and feminine are just convenient cliches that don't really signify much of anything.

[TxKimberly]

Holy smokes, every time things start to get quiet around here, DD goes and stirs things up! (Thanks DD!)
Well DD, if everyone were as reasonable as you are about all of this, then we wouldn't need support forums like this one.

[Jacqui]

Well DD, if everyone were as reasonable as you are about all of this, then we wouldn't need support forums like this one.

Agreed. Hey, DD, please don't take this the wrong way. I enjoy reading your unique 'takes.'

I joined this forum for support and a lot of "juju."
If I wanted to communicate with strangers on the internet and accepted their genders for what they claimed, I'd still be in the AOL Chat rooms.

I don't know why many of us have a problem with labels within the confines of this group. And I don't know why anyone would want to reduce masculinity and femininity into human beingness. The two have been separate from the beginning of time, and although there are infinite shades of grey between them, they will probably exist long after our great-great grandchildren are gone. Let's not kid ourselves.

I find it helpful to read comments or communicate with those human beings who just so happen to have been born male, like to wear women's clothing, wish they were born female, might have fantasies, might consider taking hormones, thinking about sexual reassignment surgery or femininization surgery etc. all while balancing this between family, friends, careers, society, and their own mind.

In other words, I'm a CMTF CD/TG TS? fantasizing about RLT, SRS, FFS.

Much of the "gold" in this forum comes from the input of GG's, but much of the "plutonium" comes from those who share the same labels and anatomy as myself.

Jacqui

p.s. CMTF (closetted MTF)

p.p.s. I am very envious of Kayla (not jealous!)

[Hinata]

DD, Although you don't know me, and I don't know you, (well, apart from posts), I agree.

I consider myself female, living in a males body. How I present myself in society is completly opposite. Writing here I am Hinata, this is who I am, and I feel that I am accepted here, without judgement. We as a species have coexesisted with many forms of life throughout our lifetime, and have grown enough to know that we all live on the same planet. Have you ever helpd a butterfly caught in a spiders web? Be a human being, not a human doing.

Acceptance is not what I strive for. I strive to be the most human that I can possibly be. And for that I say , BE WHO YOU ARE, NOT WHAT OTHERS WANT YOU TO BE.

Thus ends my :2c:

Hinata

[DemonicDaughter]

A lot of this post wasn't just for cds/ts/tg individuals. Grant it, it was me just speaking my mind and laying it out how it is in my world.

But it was also in reference to those who seem to have so many questions regarding how to address cd/ts/tg people.

Plainly, if you tell me you identify as a female, that's what you are. But if you tell you identify as a female, then segregate yourself from GGs, I wonder why.

And Jacqui, so am I hunnie. ;)

[Nicki B]

if you recall i sent you a pm asking you if you were the cd'r or the gg ?? i respect what i see it makes life less complex

But... isn't the point of this thread, why should it concievably matter? :strugglin

Other than that humans seem instinctively to need to pigeonhole people, so we can make assumptions - can't we make an effort not to? We should all know better?



..I think there are infinite possible genders. I don't mean some kind of linear "spectrum" between 100% masculine and 100% feminine (whatever that may be) but an infinite dimensional quality. What's more, I can be any one of them at different times or all of them at the same time.

Surely, whatever sex we were born with, we can be multiple genders at anyone time? :D

[Jaclyn NM]

All I know, is that I'm a guy that thoroughly enjoys wearing female clothing, and I don't know what that makes me, and quite honestly, I don't care. I am quite happy with the gender that I was born with, and wouldn't change it for the world, but on the other hand, I wouldn't change my desire to wear female clothing. So I don't know what all that means, and quite frankly, thinking about it this much just gives me a headache, and doesn't change a thing. I'm happy just the way I am, and that's good enough for me.

[RobinScott]

I had dinner with a lady of feminine gender and male sex. She told me - and I never will forget it - Sex is down there (points to groin) and gender is up here (points to head) So, regarding sex, we can discuss male and female. Regarding gender, we discuss masculine and feminine. Where you put yourself and what you call yourself is your business, but sex and gender, while related, are separate things entirely.


Most people think in terms of two lousy little genders (masculine/feminine) but I think there are infinite possible genders. I don't mean some kind of linear "spectrum" between 100% masculine and 100% feminine (whatever that may be) but an infinite dimensional quality. What's more, I can be any one of them at different times or all of them at the same time.

When I was young, being a "boy", people would react to me calling me 'sissy' or call me a 'girl' (as if that was a bad thing), just because my finger nails were longer than they thought they should be, or I did not act as masculine as other "boys".

Yes, my 'sex' based on "pluming" is male, and my 'gender' is far closer to female based on my preferance for the feminine. But why must I pretend to be, or hope to pass as a woman in order to express the feminine part of who I am?

Given the choice, based on the small boxes of 'man' or 'woman' that society wants to put us in, I would rather be read and interacted with as a woman. But why can't society just accept a man who likes frilly cloths, has long hair and painted finger nails? Why must I have to worry if I am too frilly to use the mens room, or wonder if I am not frilly enough to use the womens room? How dose the fact that I have an 'outtie' rather than an 'innie' make a difference when that is not what they are looking at?

At time even we tend to put others in our community into 'boxes', based on where we are. There is a big difference between someone who under dresses, dresses in private, expresses their feminine self in public, and those who truly want to be a woman. Yet we all fit into the nice little box of 'MTF Crossdresser'. I don' see this as a problem as long each is respected.

Love, Robin

[Carin]

As long as we keep reminding ourselves of the degree of differences between each other, the harder it will be to accept things as a community as a whole.
...
There is way too much concern about who was born with what anatomy for anyone to accept each other as the gender they most identify with.

I believe in the concept of Sexual Identity (which is not restricted to the 2 commonly understood) as a distinct and separate entity from Gender Identity (which is not restricted to the 2 commonly understood). We use the same two sets of words in both cases - confusingly interchangeable, and for the most part rely on the doctor in the delivery room to make the assignment.

I agree with you DD, I wish that gender could be accepted as how you identify yourself, not how the doctor identified you.

Easier said than done in this culture, but maybe that door has been opened a crack.

[Katheryn]

There's a huge list of identities that can be found on this site. All of them make up our wonderful community. I think that we need to stop separating ourselves with such a fine line because all it does is keep things at "us vs them". Bad juju.

Yes, DD, bad juju indeed.

IMHO, the GLBT community is rife with "us vs them", as each group is so put upon by society and so scorned that a psychological knee jerk reaction is to look down upon others to a certain degree, conciously or not. I have run into things dating back to news groups in the early 90's where, as a CD, I was looked down upon and my experiences and thoughts denegrated because I wasn't seeking surgery and therefore wasn't TS and therefore wasn't as "valid" as others, merely some sort of auxiliary member of the trans brigade.

There needs to be an awakening to the fact that we all share the same scorn of society, whether it is from sexual or gender orientation. We are, indeed, valid, regardless of our different situations, but society appreciates our bristling at differences, it's the old divide and conquer attitude.

Ah, well.....

Kate

[DemonicDaughter]

All I know, is that I'm a guy that thoroughly enjoys wearing female clothing...

Well then, this thread isn't really directed towards you as you don't have an issue with how someone addresses your gender. :) Which is a good thing.

This thread is for those who identify as a different gender than their body was assigned. Its for those people that come here asking how to address their SO, friend, parent, etc who identifies as a gender different from their anatomy.

Its really is to help ts/tg people to stop separating themselves from the gender they identify as from those that were born of that anatomy.

[Kelsy]

[QUOTE=DemonicDaughter;1433046]

To me, Kayla's gender is feminine. It has nothing to do with her anatomy. She identifies as feminine. I dislike comments from GGs and CDers alike that constantly try to shove her back into a masculine gender just because of anatomy. I consider her the same gender as I am. Same with many of my friends on here, either born with or without the matching anatomy.

QUOTE]

I personally have never comfortably identified with my anatomical masculine gender. In retrospect I find that my male behaviour was a learned role that "had" to be played. My feminine side always came to the surface and wanted expression. I am far more comfortable as a female than I every would be as male. I recieved the wrong packaging!! My wife accepts me and encourages me to live and express myself as Kelsy and It seems very natural!

Thanks DD:hugs:

[Sarah...]

Plainly, if you tell me you identify as a female, that's what you are.



Thanks DD. I've tried to start a thread on this exact topic a few times and have abandoned each one due to inability to explain myself properly.

So your post was a very welcome read indeed!

As for the quote above - that's really all I want and when I've met other people in that position I've reciprocated that approach. And do you know what? It makes things so, so much easier. In fact relating to people, whoever or whatever they are, becomes a breeze without the hidden agendas that invariably go with ever finer labelled demarcations of the human condition.

:hugs:

Sarah...

[Hinata]

DD, forgive me if what I wrote upset you. I felt guilty the next morning, after sleeping on what you really were saying.:sad: I understand now. :) Thank you for taking the time to write all of this down, so that in the future we can look back and wonder why we placed so much importance on what we look like rather than who we really are.

Hinata

[suchacutie]

Ok, I admit I'm confused, I think. Do I gather correctly that someone on this forum, of all places, is trying to say that a genetic male who is busting his butt to do everything possible to present his feminine side effectively cannot be feminine???? That's crazy!

One doesn't need to be presenting a feminine gender to understand the psychological differences between the feminine and masculine approaches to much of life! I would bet that most of the genetic males on this forum are regularly told by GGs that they are comfortable/easy to talk to, and that we understand when "men" just don't get it.

Many aspects of life are feminine besides dress and body shape. Attempting to present the "other" gender is a time-consuming, difficult, frustrating, challenging experience, and if it weren't so XXXXing rewarding, who the devil would ever do it???

So, if there is anyone here who thinks gender understanding is locked exclusively to the gender of your birth, it's clear you haven't been reading the millions of words to the contrary. Get with it! :)

tina (yes, that's Tina! my wife gave me that name, so don't you mess with my gender!) :2c:

[Satrana]

There is way too much concern about who was born with what anatomy for anyone to accept each other as the gender they most identify with.

Choosing your own gender is something which is way too progressive for most folks. This is a label that is stapled to your forehead the moment you are born and you are not supposed to remove it! It is pure indoctrination just like religion. Just look at how few people ever change their religions. 99.9% of people stay with the religion they were born into because questioning it is (or was) not allowed.

One point though - when someone is choosing their gender - what they are in fact doing is choosing between two artificial gender ideals. Belief and adherence to the female ideal is not really choosing to project your true self which is undoubtedly a mixture of all male and female characteristics. In short everyone is really genderless and yet we have to choose between two false options. Believing that you are a female gender is a groundless belief because there are no other options available.

Understanding that you can choose your own gender is a major step forward but you are still missing the big picture that we are all masculine and feminine at the same time. It is like choosing between black and white and ignoring the infinite spectrum of colors inbetween.

I would define myself as a physical male who feels complete because I acknowledge all my human characteristics.

[jenalex]

I think that the little boxes labeled "masculine" and "feminine" are too small for many of us, and don't really fit anyone precisely. There are personality traits that fit into these boxes, but real people have many different traits, and usually have a healthy sampling from both boxes. Crossdressers even more so than most.

I think masculine and feminine are just convenient cliches that don't really signify much of anything.

Yes indeed. In fact "masculine" and "feminine" don't work for me at all as cross-dressing signifiers. I prefer the butch-femme paradigm, which says nothing about essential gender (however that might be defined).

For instance: I'm femme, and dressing up to the nines (which I don't do very often) is "upping my femme". It's not trying to be feminine or womanly (whatever that might entail).

That's just me though. We all have different histories and perspectives.

Jen :happy:

[DemonicDaughter]

DD, forgive me if what I wrote upset you...

No need to feel guilty and nothing you said upset me. It takes a lot more to ruffle my feathers.

Besides, if I wasn't prepared for someone with a different opinion than my own, then I shouldn't be posting threads at all. :)

Diversity is a glorious thing. :hugs:


Ok, I admit I'm confused, I think. Do I gather correctly that someone on this forum, of all places, is trying to say that a genetic male who is busting his butt to do everything possible to present his feminine side effectively cannot be feminine???? That's crazy!...

Some feel that way, or so they express. But this thread isn't based on any one post. Its based on two repeating concepts on the forums; individuals not knowing how to address ts/tg/cd people and ts/tg distinguishing themselves separate from GGs. NOTE: I didn't add cders to that last part because many cders don't identify as being a feminine gender. Many see themselves as males that enjoy feminine clothing and/or aspects.

[Pink Person]

This is an interesting topic. My views on these subjects have been expressed in previous posts, but I will try to summarize them here. Sex, gender and sexual preferences are related concepts but not interchangeable ones. Your physical sex (male, female, or intersex) is a formal characteristic. Your gender (masculine, feminine, or androgynous) is a general functional characteristic. Your sexual preference (heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual) is a specific functional characteristic. Everyone has an identity with sex, gender, and sexual characteristics that is unique to them but also similar to the identities of other people. It is impossible to understand other people in the same way that we understand ourselves. The solution to this problem is to be tolerant of human diversity and respect individual self-definitions (when they are known) and forgive mistaken perceptions (when your self-definition is not commonly known).

I would define myself as a feminine person. Most feminine people are feminine females. Some feminine people are feminine males. I am a feminine male. My gender is more important to me than my sex or sexual preference but my gender does not define my sex or sexual preference. I am offended when someone refers to me as a CD because it trivializes my behavior, but sometimes I understand their confusion. When someone refers to me as a girl or a woman (a female), I am frequently uncomfortable and sometimes offended because I am clearly not female and don’t view myself as female. When someone refers to me as a female or like a female but really intends to acknowledge my femininity (feminine behavior) then I enjoy the validation.

Since my gender is more important to me than my sex or sexuality, I am happy to agree with DD that feminine people should focus on their common similarities. However, not everyone is like me (or like DD) so I am willing to accept other people on their own terms when I know them.

[Nicki B]

Ok, I admit I'm confused, I think. Do I gather correctly that someone on this forum, of all places, is trying to say that a genetic male who is busting his butt to do everything possible to present his feminine side effectively cannot be feminine???? That's crazy!

Surely the point has been made repeatedly that physical sex and gender are not the same thing and they may not match - here, we ought to know..



But I don't think for most of us this is a choice - we just have to live the best we can, with what we've been given..

[Kayla Shadows]

Choosing your own gender is something which is way too progressive for most folks. This is a label that is stapled to your forehead the moment you are born and you are not supposed to remove it! It is pure indoctrination just like religion. Just look at how few people ever change their religions. 99.9% of people stay with the religion they were born into because questioning it is (or was) not allowed.

One point though - when someone is choosing their gender - what they are in fact doing is choosing between two artificial gender ideals. Belief and adherence to the female ideal is not really choosing to project your true self which is undoubtedly a mixture of all male and female characteristics. In short everyone is really genderless and yet we have to choose between two false options. Believing that you are a female gender is a groundless belief because there are no other options available.

Understanding that you can choose your own gender is a major step forward but you are still missing the big picture that we are all masculine and feminine at the same time. It is like choosing between black and white and ignoring the infinite spectrum of colors inbetween.

I would define myself as a physical male who feels complete because I acknowledge all my human characteristics.

For some it is not a choice just like Nicki b said.

And I thought the whole point of this thread was to address the fact that when someone wants to be recognized as a certain gender,give them that respect.
This seems directed towards the people who feel more transgendered than a regular crossdresser.Not just a girl in boys clothes or a guy in womens clothes but a individual who identifies as a different gender.

I don't care what gender was "stapled" to my forehead when I was born because staples can be removed.What I'm not supposed to do is continue to be the person I'm not.And be recognized as that person I identify as.

[KimberlyS]

DD you are as clear as mud. Actually much clearer than that. I agree the difference and labels tend to get in the way. For me personally you can call me what every you want. And I just use labels for others as a way to know how to interact with them.

Being a CD/TG and a people watcher I find it interesting the number of guys that look very feminine yet act and dress very masculine/macho. And the same for GG's, the many that look very masculine yet act and dress very feminine. Whether some of these people relate as being TG, for most I do not know. But I do have some friends like this that I know do not consider their self to be TG. In fact they just consider their self to be a normal person. And I have come to just consider myself a normal person also.

I guess while sometimes I do "ponder the complexities of the quarks that make up our existence", for the most part I consider my self being TG just another one of the many mental and physical traits that make me a unique person.

[ReineD]

Some of you may be interested in this. (If not, just skip over it .. it involves more classifications :p).

Remember the Kinsey (1948) Seven-Point Hetero-Homo Rating Scale for sexual preference thread? The poll is here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80925&highlight=kinsey

There is also the Eyler & Wright (1997) Nine-Point Gender Continuum. Regardless of genetic sex, people identify themselves as:

1. Fully Female: Has always considered herself to be female.
2. Female with Maleness: The current ID is female, with signigicant questioning regarding being more of a male.
3. Gender-Blended Female: Perceives herself to be in some signigicant way both female and male, although more female.

4. Other Gender: Neither female nor male, as is common in non-Western cultures.
5. Ungendered: Does not or will not identify with any conventional gender.
6. Bi-gendered: Feels or acts as both female and male.

7. Gender-Blended Male: Perceives himself to be in some significant way both male & female, although more male.
8. Male with Femaleness: Current ID is male with significant questioning regarding being more of a female.
9. Fully Male: Always considered himself to be male.

Here's the site: http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0102.htm#An%20individually-based%20gender%20continuum

So if you alter the Kinsey Sexual Preference scale to make room for more shades of sexual preferences than homo/hetero, i.e. how would you describe a bi-gendered person attracted to a gender-blended female vs. a full female, and combine it with the Eyler & Wright gender scale, you end up with more than the 63 gender/sexual preference combinations. And none of these measures are based on anatomy, even though biology (neurotransmitters, hormones, other chemicals) also influence our perceived gender.

Would someone care to do the math? :eek: Add to that the confusion some people experience who change both their gender identification and sexual preference over time because they are breaking out of the molds they were put in as children, and you truly end up with an ever changing scale, with no definite points in between. It is mind boggling!

I do agree people should be treated based on gender identification rather than biological sex. But, this can be challenging with people who identify themselves as being outside of the opposing end points. It is more complex than straight (no pun intended) female vs. male identification.

A solution would be to simply accept one another as human beings outside of biological sex, gender identification or sexual preference. And if we could all do this, there would be no need for forums such as this one. It is not easy to rid ourselves of a lifetime of social conditioning. But we could start here.