Why is it taboo?

[Ze xx]

I've said before, and long before I knew my SO was a cder, that it's fine for a woman to wear a trouser suit complete with brogues and a tie one day and a ball gown the next. It's acceptable for me to choose NOT to wear make up. It's acceptable (though uncomfortable :heehee: ) for me to choose to wear a vest rather than a bra. It's acceptable for me to choose to wear masculine clothes or feminine clothes or a general mix up of the two.

Men don't have that freedom of dress.

Years ago it wasn't acceptable for women to wear trousers. I think this attitude only really changed with the advent of the land girls. But change it did, although convention does sometimes dictate that trousers aren't totally acceptable. You don't often see a first time young bride in a trouser suit, or a young girl at a prom in trousers come to that. Still, we do have the choice without much more than a raised eyebrow.

But WHY is it a taboo. Why does it matter to others what sort of underwear you choose to wear?

I realise that it does and that peoples safety can be at risk, so I'm not about to suggest you do the opposite of public bra burning, but wouldn't be nice if you could.

[Sarah.Dee]

A-Men to that!!

[Emma England]

You have asked one of lifes mysteries.

Too many people are close-minded.

Providing decency is given, it does not really matter what anyone wears.

[PamelaTX]

Weird isn't it?

And why, when given the choice, do so many women prefer to wear pants? I think that a skirt with an elastic waist-band is more comfortable, and easier to put on than any pair of pants.

[Carol Elizabeth]

Ze,

Why is it so?

In my humble opinion it is so because most people view women as lesser than - not equal to - men.

Let me explain my view. It is a proven fact that women often get paid less for doing the same work as men - men are often promoted over women because they will be around where as a woman may need maternity leave - the still believed but false notion that women are the weaker sex - do I need to go on?

With these false notions still believed by far too many people in society, a woman who dresses in masculine clothing is viewed as being superior (more like a man) than simply wearing feminine clothing. A man who dresses in clothing designated as feminine is therefore diminishing himself and what kind of man would ever want to do that?

In summary - I think the fault lies in old stereotypes that may take centuries to root out of people's heads.

Like I said, this is my humble opinion it may be right, it may be wrong, perhaps it will encourage more discussion on this topic.

CE

[Ze xx]

Now I find trousers (pants) more comfortable. I only usually wear skirts either when I'm dressing up or when it's hot.

[Ze xx]

Carol Elizabeth, interesting point. So some would consider it 'lowering themselves' to wear womens clothes?

Muppet disclaimer, obviously no one on here has that view

[MJ]

i still believe it's because at birth it's either a boy or a girl then we treat said child accordingly and of course boys wear this type of clothing only and raised accordingly. the same with girls this is your role in life boys do one thing girls do another and for some reason crossing the gender lines is taboo..

[CharleneT]

Ze,

Why is it so?

In my humble opinion it is so because most people view women as lesser than - not equal to - men.

Let me explain my view. It is a proven fact that women often get paid less for doing the same work as men - men are often promoted over women because they will be around where as a woman may need maternity leave - the still believed but false notion that women are the weaker sex - do I need to go on?

With these false notions still believed by far too many people in society, a woman who dresses in masculine clothing is viewed as being superior (more like a man) than simply wearing feminine clothing. A man who dresses in clothing designated as feminine is therefore diminishing himself and what kind of man would ever want to do that?

In summary - I think the fault lies in old stereotypes that may take centuries to root out of people's heads.

Like I said, this is my humble opinion it may be right, it may be wrong, perhaps it will encourage more discussion on this topic.

CE

A very intriguing viewpoint, and a VERY accurate one !! I had not really thought of it that way. To me, my initial reaction is just the standard "men just are not very open minded...." etc.

[Nadia-Maria]

We are animals. But, at odds with the other animals we wear clothes and we are at risk of confusing men with women if they do not wear any distinctive signs.

Make different genders to wear distinct clothes makes it much easier for everybody to know straightaway which are the preys and which are to be the predators.

You can see the same kind of issue for soccer teams. They make them wear clothes from different colors.

Everybody who do not conform to the rules are punished by the referee.
The same for trannies ! They fool the play.:devil:

Kisses

Nadia

[Angie G]

That would be nice. But some people just think things should be as they think they should be. Why should it matter to that redneck sob over there if I wearing a dress.:hugs:
Angie

[Karren H]

It's taboo??? Damn I must have missed that memo!!! lol

Personally being taboo is part of the attraction.... If it wasn't I would probably have to become a secret agent or a bank robber.....

[ElaineB]

I thiink Carol Elizabeth has it right.

There is a power balance in society and men still have the power, no matter how much we might like or pretend it to be otherwise. Changing that will take far, far more than just a few decades of feminist head-on action.

So ... it is a much more serious thing for a man to step out of his role than a woman. Even when wearing all male clothes, men are quite rigid about what we can wear, and dressing is not the only place you see this. If a man has no job it is a big deal. If a woman has no job, not as big a thing. If a woman lets a man pay for things, nobody looking on will think twice. If a man lets a woman pay, people will at least wonder why. And so on and so forth ...

Even if the sexes have equal rights we are certainly not equivalent, and that is the underlying reason for it, I think.

[Alice Torn]

I have known a number of women, who have said they won't wear dresses or skirts.. Carol Elizabeth is on to it. They consider it a sign of "being the weaker vessel", and wearing only pants, makes them feel more equal, as strong as men. Of course, some wear pants, because they are more comfortable, to them. And, some gg's simply don't want to get attention, by wearing a dress, or skirt, showing any leg. Of course, if a cder is read, , as i was the one full day I was out, jeers, laughs, disdain. Such a double standard!

[fluffy_kingston]

Perhaps the taboo element adds a bit of excitement though....

[Jenna Lynne]

In my humble opinion it is so because most people view women as lesser than - not equal to - men.

Very true, but I think there's more to it than that. Boys are encouraged to compete by proving how strong they are. They learn to look for signs of weakness in other boys, and to take advantage of them. This is instinctive mammalian behavior -- it's why male moose and goats beat themselves silly head-butting one another. The ones who win the head-butting contest have an evolutionary advantage: They get to sire more offspring. This ensures the continuation of the behavior from generation to generation.

When a man dresses like a woman, he's displaying weakness. Other men will sense (instinctively) an opportunity to display their own superiority by picking on him. Of course a mature adult male knows he doesn't need to do that; his secure sense of his own strength doesn't require him to pounce on weakness in others. That's why we're in the most danger of being mocked and ridiculed by teenage boys, by lower-class, blue-collar types (who keenly feel their economic weakness and crave opportunities to display strength), and by those whose culture has the strictest code of machismo.

And by all hockey players, of course. (Sorry, Karren -- I'm only kidding, honest!)

***Jenna Lynne***

[Nicole Erin]

Yeah the whole "lowering" onesself is a good explanation, however, I tend to lean more towards the fact that women's clothes are pretty or sexy, something men are not allowed to be, according to modern gender boundries.


It's taboo??? Damn I must have missed that memo!!! lol


Karren, you are always missing these things! Get with the program! :heehee:


Personally being taboo is part of the attraction.... If it wasn't I would probably have to become a secret agent or a bank robber.....

Now if you are as crazy real life as on this forum, I can somehow see you getting caught robbing banks cause you dropped your wallet on the way out. :heehee:

[Sarah...]

Ze,

Why is it so?

In my humble opinion it is so because most people view women as lesser than - not equal to - men.


Yep. Spot on. I have to agree. To an extent! The MTF CD/TG is doing the intolerable thing and giving up an apparent position of power and strength voluntarily. It is only "apparent" though. It may not really be the case. Now, don't FTMs suffer the same intolerance? Why is that? Is that because they are taking a position of power and strength?

In truth I think it's simply because either way the individual is refusing to fit "properly" within a tribe and that is simply not understood by society in general.

It can be changed though. Homosexuality used to be the same and that has changed over the last quarter century or so - but only because of very hard work and active input from many dedicated members of society.

Sarah...

[tamarav]

Funny, I may have given up the male power but I seem to be working harder than ever...

[Michelle42]

Boys are encouraged to compete by proving how strong they are. They learn to look for signs of weakness in other boys, and to take advantage of them. This is instinctive mammalian behavior -- it's why male moose and goats beat themselves silly head-butting one another. The ones who win the head-butting contest have an evolutionary advantage: They get to sire more offspring. This ensures the continuation of the behavior from generation to generation.

When a man dresses like a woman, he's displaying weakness. Other men will sense (instinctively) an opportunity to display their own superiority by picking on him. Of course a mature adult male knows he doesn't need to do that; his secure sense of his own strength doesn't require him to pounce on weakness in others.***Jenna Lynne***

Wow, what a great insight there.

The funny thing is that in our case, the display of machismo by the other party makes no sense actually, since CDers are not competing for women while in drab. ... well OK, maybe CDers are not the best example, because most of them actually are heterosexual ... but take gays for simplicity.

From the evolutionary point of view, it makes sense though: It is much more probable that genes evolve that lead to picking on any weakness of any male. Genes that would specialise in picking only on real competition (i.e. genes that would make oneself to be able to recognise gays, hermits, etc. as no threat) would have to be much "smarter". And a smarter gene prevails only if it gives a significant evolutionary advantage over other genes - and I don't think this is the case.

Michelle

[Jaclyn NM]

You're right in that there is definitely a double standard, and it has gone on far too long. Nevertheless, I'm sure it will continue for some time to come unfortunately.

[Lisa Golightly]

The girl who feels she can't wear heels, bright colours or skirts is no different to the boy who thinks he can't wear a dress.

[suchacutie]

I believe the widening of the norm of female dress is traceable to WWII. The poster of "Rosie the Riviter" and the staffing of other normally male jobs by women, jobs that would not have been safe nor comfortable with skirts, was certainly acceptable then, followed by a revival in the 60's and 70's.

tina

[suzy cool]

Two tribes go to war.
They line up against each other.
Some carry clubs, some have tattoos, some are seriously muscled.
Which one is going to cause you serious damage? Look into their eyes. Which one can you hide behind or depend on in a fight? Which one looks weaker than you?


Aha! He's mine! The one in the cocktail dress.

That's why.

[Jilmac]

Ze: First I'd like to welcome you to the forum. I think it might be more a cultural taboo than anything else. There were (and still are) some cultures where the males wore the fancy adornment. Our own native Americans were one culture. The males wore fancy feathered headresses, beads, and leggings. They painted their faces for certain rituals and celebrations, and the women dressed plain.

Even in your country, back in history, men were always depicted wearing ruffled shirts, tailcoats, and powdered wigs. It's difficult to say just when the taboos started (or where), but I think we are seeing a turn around in acceptance, albeit very slowly.

I'm doing my part for world acceptance when I dress and go out and about en femme. So far I haven't run into any dangerous situations (knock wood), but if it ever happened I would do what any self respecting lady would do, I'd deck the attacker with my purse. :heehee:

[Sophia de la luz]

The choice that women display in being safe to wear pants or wear a dress, to work or not to work, is an expression of power. True, they are not paid as much as men on the average, most of these high paid men are bringing home the bacon for their woman. Married men have a lot more status in society because they have been accepted by the matriarchs. They have even more status and respect if they have fathered kids and are working to support them.
The fact that men have severe social constraints in expressive their inner nature outside of rigid acceptable norms does not indicate a "ruling" position in the fabric of society.
A man choosing to dress as a woman, to play the part of woman, is a threat mainly because it demonstrates to all concerned the power at play in these dynamics, and the fundamental helplessness of the male in society. This helplessness and combine with a feeling of being attacked by the CD and can easily lead to hostility.

It's very obvious to me that CDing expands my possibilities, my options and my self expression. It's also obvious that receiving loving acceptance while exploring this self expression is a highly desired state. The risk I am taking represents an increase of power, both internal personal power, and power to act in wider society.

That's my thought on it anyhow.

[Rachel Morley]

It's acceptable for me to choose to wear masculine clothes or feminine clothes or a general mix up of the two ...... men don't have that freedom of dress.

But WHY is it a taboo?.

Hi Ze,

I've posted this response before but IMHO:

Unfortunately it's all about the social hierarchy within our society. When a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's "going up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing. :sad:

Now, obviously I'm generalizing about the public at large, and not everyone thinks this way, but IMHO the only way we will ever be truly accepted is when women truly get an equal status in society the same as men. Why hasn't there ever been a female US President? Where are all the female military Generals? Everyone knows about the corporate "glass ceiling". Am I making any sense here? The key to it being accepted is the empowerment of women. If men and women were really and truly the same in our world (it's unfortunately still a man's world) then it wouldn't be a taboo. :2c:

[Jess_cd32]

That would be nice. But some people just think things should be as they think they should be. Why should it matter to that redneck sob over there if I wearing a dress.:hugs:
Angie

So far I've read down to your post Angie and Karrens, and will respond here and finish later.

People fear what they don't understand, and some are just plain homophobic to an extreme, thinking all cd's must be gay, weirdo's etc... .
Each cd I think is unique amoung themselves just like anyone else.

Karrens response I think carries validity as well, I allways love her answers and humor,lol.

Growing up I was despised and mocked by some for having long hair, got in fights over it and was harrassed, it only made me a strong person, mentally and physically and made me realize what types of characters are out there.

There will allways be those that are just miserable souls and want to make everyone else feel like them, their not really worth wasting intelligent conversation on.

[KellyCD]

I thought about that in one of my recent "questioning social sanity" moods. ( I have many of those as you prob have noticed)


Something else that I've noticed is the "just one of the guys".....uhhh movement? (would that even be the right word?)

I'm sorry but no woman in the world is going to "impress" me with her belching ability.

[Ze xx]

Ah, yes, the 'ladette' mindset. The 'I can drink you under the table and I'm still a girl' attitude. :brolleyes:

Actually I've been that person :o I'm not ashamed that I've been that person, but I'm not that person anymore and I've learned from her. For me it was due to insecurity and needing to fit in as well as needing to be noticed.

I don't miss her though :D

[ElaineB]

The fact that men have severe social constraints in expressive their inner nature outside of rigid acceptable norms does not indicate a "ruling" position in the fabric of society.


That is a good point. Outwardly, at least, men are the bosses ... but in many ways are just figureheads. I think women are actually behind a lot of our social rules and structure, but they make things happen indirectly by influencing men.

An example from a different area ... in India and other parts of the British Empire, the British used to segregate themselves from the locals. Why? The theory (and this is not my theory, just one I ran across) is that the women made it happen with subtle pressure here and there at every social occasion ... so it would be unacceptable for a British man to marry an Indian woman. Otherwise they would have to compete with exotic and tempting foreign women, and they would lose most of the time. (You can see exactly that worry coming true with foreigners in the big cities of Asia right now.)

Do most men really care about CDing? Or about anything other men wear at all? I doubt it. I think most just want to make sure they do not appear wimpy or feminine ... to women, naturally. So women set the standards for male behaviour, by what they expect and because they mostly choose us and not the other way around.



A man choosing to dress as a woman, to play the part of woman, is a threat mainly because it demonstrates to all concerned the power at play in these dynamics, and the fundamental helplessness of the male in society.

By that reasoning, I guess we should watch out for an angry mob of women after us now for exposing them!

:yrtw:

[Ze xx]

So men living up to a perception of what women conceive as being masculine? I've certainly heard my girlfriends saying 'ooo no, I want a real man' referring to many different things, from being 'soft' in nature to growing their hair long. (having been on the rock scene for years, having long hair never denoted a man who wants to express his female side to me anyway). I suppose it never occurred to me that this might be the cause of a taboo.

[Laura_Stephens]

When most women wear trousers and other "traditionally male" clothes, they are not trying to pass themselves as male. It is merely fashion. When most men wear women's clothes, they are more apt to try to pass as something other than their birth gender.

Society has a much bigger problem with people who try to "be something that they aren't" as opposed to what most perceive to be fashion statements.

JMHO.

[carolinoakland]

What people have the hardest time understanding is why in the world would someone give up what has been called " male privilage " willingly. I can't understand why I'd want the privilage of being something I'm not. So I guess that would be my answer to why. Being a female would be my idea of privilage, Carol

[Kate Simmons]

I was never under the impression it was taboo, just different. Why that is is anyone's guess. I suppose it depends on the tabooer and the tabooee. Most people want instant identifiers on others. When the "accepted" dress does not match the geneic sex some become upset or offended. Rather than trying to get to know a person for who they are it just seems easier for some to label others as a weirdo, pervert or radical. I personally think diversity is refreshing and admire others for the courage to be themselves. I guess that sometimes makes me the above mentioned weirdo, pervert or radical to others. Oh well, such is life.:battingeyelashes::)

[Jennifer Devine]

There has been a lot more acceptance for transgendered people these days but there are still traditional minded people who think that we should all follow the normal cycle of life where you grow up, get a job, get a boyfriend/girlfriend, get married, have kids, they get married and have kids and you become grandparents and so forth.

People just don't know when to mind their own business and let us go about our lives without being watched and treated like outcasts all the time.
I don't think that a complete stranger should be able to just come up to me and tell me how i should live my life when i don't even know them from adam.

If they do then i just say to them, "Jealous that i can pull off a skirt suit better than you can?"
or just "Get lost" lol

We should all be treated as equals and all of these close minded people should get in to the 21st century coz wer'e here to stay!

Jess xxxxxx

[Brina Halloween]

I wondered when someone would mention history...I believe most pictures of the signing of independence show attire we would normally associate with a lady now. The "normal" of society changed at some time. You could probably blame the retailers that needed for fashion to change in order to sell more cloths. The strength / weakness things are probably true but, the dress taboo did not appear to exist 200 years ago. Now, a scottish kilt is about the only "normal" dress wearing by guys and it better be plaid and be accompanied by bagpipes.

Brina

[Toni_Lynn]

Okay --- here's my take on this topic

(and I can hear the assembled masses saying 'Oh No!' :doh:)

As I said in my post to the thread about how would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1437841&postcount=19

I don't hold to the fullness of statements that women can wear men's clothes all they want yet men can't wear women's clothes. There is some small truth in the statement but not as much as m2f CDers make out to be. In other words, a woman who would underdress would as many eyebrows as a guy who does. Granted scenes like that have been in popular media such as in Sex and the City, yet even there it was not like Sarah-Jessica Parker's character who men's briefs all the time.

If I may, I'd broaden the whole thought and state that our F2M brothers have it just as tough as we M2F TSs do -- if not tougher. After all, society surely frowns upon them giving up their femininity (as perceived by said society only).

I think a better question to be asked is, why don't more women crossdress as guys to the extent that we guys do? After all, the whole twisting and turning of gender is fun! Well, at least to me :)

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Jenna Lynne]

Sisters, these taboos are in our minds. We have nothing to fear but fear itself.
It would be nice if that were true, but transgenders are still being murdered because they dare to try to live their lives in the way they feel they must. It happened to Gwen Araujo, and she's not the only one by a long shot.

What's truly appalling is that the murderers then try to get a free pass on their crimes by using the "gay panic" defense. And sometimes it works. The lesson that that teaches is, it's okay to murder transgenders.

What a swell world we live in!

***Jenna Lynne***

[Ze xx]

Hi Toni-Lynn, you've made some interesting points. I've often wondered about why women are less likely to cd than men, and I do wonder if that is because women can get away with being masculine without as many attitudes. I can indulge my masculine side (which I definitely have) which is partly my point really. As I have found out since joining here, many M2F don't wish to make any permanent changes and have openly stated that they like being a guy as well. Many don't fully dress on a regular basis out of choice rather than restrictions. Well, maybe if men had the same freedoms as women as far as clothes are concerned, some of you wouldnn't even be considered cross dressers, maybe if it was still taboo for women to be more masculine I would be.

[battybattybats]

Simple, because a significant minority of people absolutely hate difference. Whether it's Goths or Jews or people who like particular food!

These people hate anyone significantly different from themselves. They see it as a threat to them, to whatever sway or power they have socially and they do their utmost to encourage others to feel the same way as they do about things which leads us to group 2.

Group 2, the largest group, determine their view of the world by what people around them think. So their morality is based on what more people around them say is right and wrong. So long as enough people either agree with the first small group or do not speak out against them then group 2 will go along with it and wholeheartedly agree with and believe that hate.

Then there is group 3. Group 3 are often the key decider on these things. Group 3 want to be accepted by group 1 and 2. If they currently are they will often go along with group 1 to stay 'in'. If they are currently also shunned by group 1 then they will often blame all the other people hated by group 1 for this and will often try to show their objections to them too as a way to gain acceptance by group 1.

Lastly is group 4, often quite different themselves they stand up for difference and are comfortable around most hated groups, however they often have little influence on group 2 much of the time because group 3 sides with group 1 for their own hope of gain tipping the scales.

This pattern occurs at all levels of society resulting in a complex set of layers of discrimination in a giant complex web with a tiny handful of people at the top with most power and influence, mostly made up of group 1 people who viciously defend their power base and who are supported by the infighting at every layer below them.

When enough group 4 people convince group 3 people that they don't need to attack the other groups to gain general acceptance but rather need to show group 2 people the truth and when enough group 2 people see that group 1 is wrong or that more people actually disagree with group 1 etc then something becomes generally accepted.

But this occurs in each interconnected subculture and class and community resulting in an ever shifting mass of acceptance and intolerance with often quite surprising things being accepted by some groups and not others (Iran providing free SRS while executing Gays is a good example of this).

And the vast majority of all these groups have no idea at all of Ethics or Morality! Just what those around them concur is good and bad, entirely relative! Thats why one of the most hated and derided things in the modern world is Philosophy!

It's too dangerous, they killed Socrates for teaching it to kids. It teaches people from any group how to determine right and wrong for themselves based on logic and rational thought, to question authority and judge claims on their merits and as such is a threat to the whole system even more than any other difference is.

[ericalynncd]

Ze,

Why is it so?

In my humble opinion it is so because most people view women as lesser than - not equal to - men.

Let me explain my view. It is a proven fact that women often get paid less for doing the same work as men - men are often promoted over women because they will be around where as a woman may need maternity leave - the still believed but false notion that women are the weaker sex - do I need to go on?

With these false notions still believed by far too many people in society, a woman who dresses in masculine clothing is viewed as being superior (more like a man) than simply wearing feminine clothing. A man who dresses in clothing designated as feminine is therefore diminishing himself and what kind of man would ever want to do that?

In summary - I think the fault lies in old stereotypes that may take centuries to root out of people's heads.

Like I said, this is my humble opinion it may be right, it may be wrong, perhaps it will encourage more discussion on this topic.

CE

I don't view women in pants as superior. I view them as women in pants.

[Raquel June]

Masculinity is strength and aggression. Femininity is beauty and emotion. A quick look at the effects of testosterone and estrogen will prove that that's a biological fact.

Strength and beauty are not mutually exclusive, but a healthy man is uglier than a healthy woman, and a healthy woman is weaker than a healthy man.

Society accepts a man being pretty as long as he still displays strength -- think Johnny Depp with his long hair and eyeliner kicking ass in those pirate movies. Society accepts a woman being strong as long as she still displays beauty -- think Angelina Jolie in Tomb Raider.

Society makes fun of men who try to be pretty but don't show strength (a whole lot of derogatory terms are just for that). There's simply no way to be a badass in a dress and high heels. Similarly, a strong woman who isn't pretty is also apt to have a lot of harsh words associated with her like dyke and ball-breaker.

Also, it's worth noting that this forum wouldn't exist if crossdressing wasn't taboo. I know many crossdressers, and I've met a few hundred in person. I can safely say that the vast majority of them would not do it if it wasn't taboo. There are two main reasons for genetic males to crossdress:

1) transgender feelings which cause them to fight societal pressure to be strong and emotionless

2) sexual fetishism by those who get excited by "sissification"

There are a lot more who are strictly #2 than you'd think. But hey, I just want to be pretty. I don't need Freud to analyze it :)

[Toni_Lynn]

Society accepts a woman being strong as long as she still displays beauty -- think Angelina Jolie in Tomb Raider.
...
Similarly, a strong woman who isn't pretty is also apt to have a lot of harsh words associated with her like dyke and ball-breaker.

These two statements coupled with a quote from Suzie in the 'shoe on the other foot thread':

We're talking about completely presenting as male...short hair, bulge in pants, moustache etc. This is a different animal.


sum it up rather nicely.

I refer back to my note about Sarah Jessica Parker in men's briefs, and toss in Alyssa Milano in Jockey Y-Fronts in the movie Posion Ivy II, and even Marlene Dietrich in tuxedo. In every instance, the essence of their femininity over-rode the masculine item that they wore. In fact, in a sense, it made the masculine item almost 'cute', and enhanced their own femininity.

Whereas, when a guy partially crosses, as in retains a part of his masculine appearance, the opposite happens, and the masculine in him is over-ridden by what he is wearing and he himself will become 'cute', and possibly subject to ridicule.

A woman going the full way, with a packy in her briefs, is akin to us wearing our breast forms, and is just as taboo.

All I can say I that the fullness of it between my wife and I has brought a lot of fun and to pleasure us.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it, your actually mileage may vary.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Raquel June]

...In fact, in a sense, it made the masculine item almost 'cute', and enhanced their own femininity.

Whereas, when a guy partially crosses, as in retains a part of his masculine appearance, the opposite happens, and the masculine in him is over-ridden by what he is wearing and he himself will become 'cute', and possibly subject to ridicule.

I don't know about that. I think the same is true for guys. When a guy has very pretty long hair (not some manly sloppy biker mop or ponytail) like Antonio Banderas (http://images.google.com/images?q=banderas+desperado) had in Desperado, or like Rodrigo Santoro (http://images.google.com/images?q=xerxes+300) in Love Actually (or his lipstick in 300) ... well ... it was almost 'kickass', and enhanced their own masculinity.

And I've got some kinda cute half-girly pics :)

[battybattybats]

While cross-dressed, I have gone into literally hundreds of shops, cafés, restaurants, banks, cinemas, railway stations etc. etc. in Britain, France and the USA. I usually get read, sooner or later. But I was only refused service in one bar, (and that was because I was foolish enough to ask permission in advance). All in all I have been received with at worst indifference and at best open arms.

Hold up though. Your using your personal experience as a measure, thats way too small a sample to draw such conclusions from! The data suggests that transgender people suffer far higher incidence of violence than cisgender people so while in your experience you've been fine it has no bearing on that data as you could just have been lucky! And the colour of your skin makes a huge difference as has been noted especially this year that incidence of violence increases when someone is both Trans and Black!

You mention Gwen Araujo but what about Simmie Williams and Lawrance King? Alas there's plenty of other examples.


You have only to read through the posts on this site to see that our worst problem is not violence or opposition from society at large, it is our anxiety about what our nearest and dearest might think if we were honest about ourselves. I say it again: the taboo is in our heads. I hasten to say that it's none the less real for that, but let's not blame 'society'. It's what Blake called "the mind-forged manacles" that are often the strongest.

We are hardly a representative sample! Cause a lot of impoverished transexuals working on the streets are spending their money on food, shelter hormones and SRS rather than on a computer with internet access.

The purpose of violent oppression is to oppress using terror. To manipulate using fear of reprisal. We should not give in to that fear but nor should we ignore the reality of the threat. And yes we should blame society but we should also stand up against it, hold it accountable and demand justice from it!

We are victims of terrorism. Intended to keep us cowering at home in fear, intended to prevent us from being visible, taking part in public life and becoming accepted. It prevents many from finishing school keeping them poor, it makes many homeless, it prevents many from legal employment resulting in many working the streets to survive or to afford hormones and surgery.

We are one of the most oppressed peoples in the world and pretending we're not or only looking for our measure at those of us who have a degree of protection because they spent long enough in the closet to get a good education and a career, managed to get skilled jobs with more tolerant employment practices or have the right colour skin or live in the right neighbourhood does not allow us the option of remaining blithe to the suffering of many where the combination of several disadvantages magnifies the effect of each one rather than simply adding them.

We need to be honest and not ignore the risks and dangers. And we can't stop there cowering in terror but instead must work out ways to minimise the risks and stamp out the dangers! We need to back each other up more, look out for each other more. Provide safe spaces more so that we can help each other safely come out and do exactly what those that hate us don't want us to do!

Some of us are at greater risk than others. Not only do we need to understand that so those who suffer less risk aren't afraid of threats that are unlikely in the extreme but we must recognise those who are most at risk and we must help them!

[Satrana]

Well, maybe if men had the same freedoms as women as far as clothes are concerned, some of you wouldnn't even be considered cross dressers, maybe if it was still taboo for women to be more masculine I would be.

Ah....Ze you are very wise. Women wearing masculine clothes are crossdressers but because society now condones this behavior you are not labeled as a CD. You would have been 100 years ago. And as you rightly point out if men had the same freedoms as women currently have then the type of MTF CD behavior that is observable today simply would not exist if men had been able to freely wear dresses from childhood onwards taking for granted their freedom to express their femininity.

You asked about why it was taboo. The social status answers are correct but only tell half the story. The taboo status of MTF crossdressing lies in that other great traditional taboo - sexuality. Modern female clothing is focused on displaying sensuality and sexuality. The female image is used to sell everything under the sun because femininity = sexuality = desirability. This is why women have moved away from feminine clothing because it sends the wrong signals if you want to be taken seriously. Men's clothing on the other hand is mostly a practical affair except for business suit which confers power.

So MTF CDing is taboo because women's clothing is intrinsically linked to sexuality which is not the case with men's clothes. So when women adopted men's clothes they had only one hurdle to overcome - the social status issue and never had to deal with the taboo problems of wearing clothes that imply sexuality.

[docrobbysherry]

While the topic is men wearing dresses, and there r certainly many reasons why that is NOT acceptable. And possibly no really VALID ones!

But, as Batty says, Isn't this really the tip of the repressive iceberg? We r supposed to be moving toward a world more educated and enlightened. But I worry that individual freedoms have actually diminished in the US in the last few years. And possibly that may be true in many other parts of the world. Repressive attitudes may be gaining power world wide.

I'm one of the closet CDs that would be the last to march in a protest parade dressed. But, there r many other ways to push for CD rights!

Please try to support ALL GROUPS that r unreasonably singled out and picked on. If nothing else, speak of tolerance to your friends and relatives! After all, everybody in the world doesn't have to LIKE everyone else, just not HATE them. Just let them alone to do their own thing. As long as that doesn't harm anyone else!

Isn't that all WE want? To just wear a skirt and heels to the store?
And to be HATED for that reason, is JUST as senseless as to be hated for your color, religion, language, sexual orientation, or national origin isn't it?

Just remember that when u r faced with an opportunity to support or reject a person or group, who wants to exclude people based on any of the above reasons! Remember how U feel when you're dressed!!!:Angry3:

Oh, and maybe some folks don't like CDs out in public because their not styish enough!:heehee:

[Katy Dee]

Try reading Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars! It may help in understanding!
Katy Dee

[Tashee]

Just think about how many were shunned, banished-same thing just a little different-. Hurt, mentally, physically, spiritually and emotionally. Or killed. Just because some consider it taboo...
I consider being closed minded and bigoted a taboo. But in all honesty I can not remember the last time I ever banished, hurt or even killed a closed minded bigoted individual.:2c:

[jacques]

hello,
I often wonder if I would crossdress if it were accepted by Society. But if it were accepted would it be considered "crossdressing"?
The taboo nature of it is probably part of the excitement for me. I have always been a bit perverse, and done the oposite of what is conventionally expected of me.
Yet it does not seem right that "society" accepts women who wear men's clothes, but not men who wear women's clothes. I accuse "Society" of hypocracy!
Jaques Hughes

[sometimes_miss]

Let me explain my view. It is a proven fact that women often get paid less for doing the same work as men

O.K., lets stop perpetuating this myth. Business people aren't stupid. If a business could automatically fire all the men and replace them with women who could do the exact same job and save 25%, it would be done tomorrow because the number one goal in business is profit. The person at the top isn't there to be nice to the guys, or the girls. they're there to make the company successful. If this could be accomplished, there would be consultant firms all over the place with contracts in their hands, telling CEO's that their fee would be for a guaranteed payment of 10% out of the cut in future savings, they would come in and replace high paid workers (men) with equally productive workers (all those supposedly just as productive women) that make less money, and those CEO's knowing they would get incredible bonuses for making this much money for the company, would jump at the chance. Feminists use this propaganda about wages all the time. Yes, it does occur, but only rarely, due to the very reasons I've cited. And, there are professions where women make more than men, but you'll never hear about that one; if you ask, the women will give all kinds of reasons whey they should be paid more, but if a guy does that, he's automatically considered wrong. Look that one up while you're at it; NOW doesn't want to bring that statistic up, though.

[Angie G]

Yes it would be nice in fact it would be great. I just wish people would mind there own Business a bit more often.:hugs:
Angie

[Vicky_Scot]

Perhaps the taboo element adds a bit of excitement though....

I totally agree. If we were free to dress as we wished without anyone batting an eyelid, then would as Fluffy says, would we get the same excitement from dressing.

I think not.

Xx Vicky xX

[Samantha Kelsey]

I guess it just be that way.