How do you know if you are transgendered or just CD? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

sandra-leigh

09-25-2008, 10:08 PM

How do you know whether you are "transgendered" or just a crossdresser? This isn't the usual question about how do you know whether you are "transsexual". I do not feel like "I should have been a woman", and I am not sexually attracted to men. But that's defining me by what I am not, and there is a lot of ground between "being a male who likes to dress in womens' clothes" and "being a genetic male who would be better off as a female". I've been thinking of myself as somewhere in the middle, but how do I know?

Where I stand:

- a genetic male

- who did not "grow up in the wrong body"

- who does not hate his male organs or their associated sensations

- who likes wearing womens' clothes

- who did some minor dressing experimentation when young (just one variety amongst other experimentations)

- who has only been cross-dressing for about 4 years... but in retrospect, whom had been "trying things on to see how they look" more and more often for a few years before the idea of actually wearing some of them came to mind

- who has worn panties nearly every day for close to 2 years, and no longer "feels right" in men's underwear... a psychological dependancy?

- who wears womens pants to work the great majority of the time (but who wears men's pants too)

- who often wears subtle female shirts/tops to work, but will wear men's shirts too... especially if the men's shirts are some of the bulkier ones that hide forms well

- who will wear even more "shiny" tops to work, and even what are really blouses: tops that someone could potentially realize are "womens'", and tops which few of the men around would wear -- but nothing that is an outright give-away as "definitely female", always something within the bounds of "he's a guy, so it must be menswear".

- who does sometimes wear a bra at work, having chosen his top/shirt so that the bra won't "show through"

- but who does not worry about bra straps and buckles once the bra is on: a once-over in the mirror at dressing time to be sure that nothing is too obvious, and then don't worry about it

- who does sometimes wear forms at work while working (knowing that he doesn't actively work with people so few people are likely to have a chance of observing them)

- who does not spend all day thinking about how pretty his panties are or how what sexy his clothes must look. At work, he does think about his appearance sometimes, perhaps some concern about having over-done it... and if he is wearing forms then he is more likely to think about appearance and about dressing

- who would seriously consider (e.g., likely would try it and see how it goes) wearing skirts to work some days "as a guy" if somehow the message came down that that would be acceptable to management;

- who would is a little uncertain about whether he would wear a dress at work "as a guy" (at least during the working day) unless for some reason management happened to say they would be happy with it

- who hasn't thought much about presenting as a female (wig and all) at work

- who sometimes wears nail strengthener or clear nail polish, but does not often wear nail polish at work (a light pink is not unknown), and who does not usually wear nail polish even "out" (partly because it is a nuisance to put on)

- who rarely wears makeup of any kind to work (might have chanced light mascera twice or so)

- who usually wears only (hair-concealing) foundation and perhaps a bit of eye-shadow when going out as "mixed-gendered"

- who does not wear a lot of makeup even when fully Dressed

- who doesn't bother to "practice" female things much at all -- doesn't bother to practice makeup, has never bothered to study voice, doesn't pay a lot of attention to walk

- who, in other words, is not even remotely "consumed" by the need to "pass" in the sense of being 90-whatever percent taken as female

- who, even when fully Dressed (full wig, makeup, dress or distinctly femme skirt and top, heels) is often easily recognized by those who have met him before as a male.... or, for that matter, as met while wearing very different female clothes and wig

- who most taxi drivers immediately call "sir" even when fully Dressed... before he has even spoken

- who would prefer to be more regularly thought of as a woman when fully Dressed, and who would prefer to be less easily recognized as his male self when fully Dressed (partly because recognized implies knowledge of original gender), but whom just gets a bit disappointed about it and whom doesn't spend a lot of time dwelling on it

- who not-uncommonly deliberately goes out "gender-bending" when not at work, in the sense of wearing a recognizably female top or blouse, or in the sense of wearing D or G cup forms underneath less-obviously-female clothes (but not "flaunting" the forms), or in the sense of wearing a skirt or a dress out in public with no wig and little or no makeup

- who often shops for female clothes while in drab, and who speaks openly about the clothes being for him in the stores, and who openly tries things in in stores without worrying that other shoppers will notice that he is trying on womens' clothes

- who spends a fair bit of time and research thinking about what size of breasts he would like to have for himself (summary: would very much like "cleavage"; at least C cup provided cleavage could be created without difficulty, but would probably prefer around DD -- and the 40G's look very nice for regular clothes, only looking "too big" with clothes designed to fit closely around the breasts.. and yes, a number of people have said that the 40G's suit him well)

- but whom is presently unsure that he would ever actually do anything to deliberately enlarge his breasts -- not from the standpoint of worry about whether he could "really" deal with the fallout of a male having "breasts": only due to the serious side-effects of all known enlargement methods

- but for whom, the urge towards actual breasts seems to be getting stronger

- and whom in the meantime is developing a urge to openly sometimes wear forms at work "as a guy"

- for whom wearing silicone forms around a D cup "just feels right", feeling like he should have something that shape and weight on his body, and when he is without them for more than a few days, it feels as if "something is missing"

- who, if breast enlargement was gradual, would let the breasts be observed more and more with the "this is how I am" reasoning... but who is not certain how he would handle the situation in case of sudden breast enlargement (e.g., implants)

So, given all of that... how do I tell if I am really transgender, or if I'm really just a cross-dresser with a breast fetish?

I am willing to (and do) go out in public to be seen as a male with female clothing and with the most obvious of the female secondary sexual characteristics. I am increasingly bringing that "closer to home", going in a skirt or dress "as myself" into more places where I am "known"... I can only think of three "regular" places that I have not gone to while visibly gender-bending.

I care a little about what a small number of of the neighbours think -- to stay in "good graces" for one of them, out of friendship for the other. I'm not "out" at work, but I am "out" to the public.

But "clothes do not make the man" (or the woman), and a willingness to be seen in female clothes or a willingness to be seen as if I have "female" breasts doesn't mean that I have a noticeable female gender component. It means I have the appearance of mixing male and female (and to be clear, I enjoy wearing skirts even as a guy)... but what kinds of things should I be looking at in my personality to determine whether I am truly a mix of genders in personality?

Is the difference between "crossdresser" and "transgender" as simple as "if you seriously consider body modifications beyond hair removal, then you have gone beyond cross-dressing to transgender or transsexual" ?

The imputous to this questions is that I started thinking about telling my mother that I consider myself to be transgender -- so I had to starting thinking of answers to the obvious question "Well, what does that mean for you?" And I realized that all I really knew for sure about my transgender nature was the clothes, the willingness to be perceived as mixed gender, and the distinct desire for breast enlargement.

For what it is worth, the COG-whatever pseudo-science test rates me as "androgeneous" (towards the male side) and claims that I would likely suffer if I were forced to polarize towards to side or the other. Which summary does agree with how I feel. I don't feel especially that I am a woman, but I also think it is "too late to put the genie back in the bottle" and go back to being "just a male".

I could imagine that at some point, after retirement maybe, or perhaps on a longer vacation, I might experiment with presenting as female "full time" for a period and see how I like that, but I do not have any inclination towards SRS. I do not rule out hormones... but definitely not until I've given up on the possibility of becoming a father!

Cai

09-25-2008, 11:41 PM

You sound to me like a very androgynous person. That you're happy with your body as-is, but you'd like societal permission to dress both masculine and feminine. You probably fall somewhere in the middle of gender identities.

Technically, being androgynous does fall under the transgender umbrella. But it's not something you're required to embrace as an identity unless you really want to. It sounds to me like you're fairly stable in your current identity of a male-bodied person who likes to dress feminine sometimes. That's perfectly legitimate, and you don't need further labels to define yourself.

Sharon

09-26-2008, 04:32 AM

Sexuality -- preferring male vs female partners -- is totally irrelevant and unrelated to transsexuality. Personally, I think I am rather fluid in that regard, though I tend to lean towards heterosexuality.

What I wear is totally irrelevant to my transsexuality. Whether I dress up or dress down, I am still who I am, though I honestly don't own any male clothing.

I hate my penis -- it is a growth that I neither asked for nor intend to keep as mine.

It is more important to me that I have the freedom to be me, rather than how passable I am. Saying that, I still do what I can to look my best, the measures taken being totally dependent on my mood, what and where I am going, etc. on any particular day.

That is me -- a transsexual.

MarinaTwelve200

09-26-2008, 06:59 AM

Tess-Leigh
This is educated guessing on my part, but this seems like an escalating obcession with "the taboo", taking chances---and having it re-enforced by your sexual response. An "extra "high" effect also is achieved by taking related risks and "getting away with it".

You feel that you have to "ratchet it up" as time goes on--either to maintian the same level of 'high" ("been there, done that") or an urge for a greater level of "the feeling" associated with your CD activities.

This MAY have arisen from the DISCOVERY of the "pleasant effects" of some CD aspects some time back and the desire to re-experience them---and I seem to detect a trace of some personal "self destructive" tendancies there too.

No , I do NOT think that this is Transsexualisim/Transgenderisim, but crossing such "brain boundaries" related to the stabilization and preservation of 'personal identity' has been known to create an intense 'HIGH" effect--often close to SEX itself. Something akin to "the thrill of battle (combat) and "being shot at to no effect".

Many of us become CDers via inadvertent "Discovery" of this alone in association with a CD incident in our early teens, and continue to CD for the "high" (although we really dont know the WHY behind the high, till much later on after the habbit is established.)

This "discovery" can happen later in life too. Its not really a teen sexual thing, but rather a natural result of crossing an internal Brain "taboo", that generates the high. Some, like you, become More and more "daring" ---untill something "bad" socially , happens or you do something REALLY stupid and embarrasing(eg. you DONT get away with it) and the luster is taken off of things for a while.

I have some experience with the mechanisim, so I beleive I have a bit of a handle on things, from my end. One thing that helps is instead of partial CD, is to GO "whole hog" a couple of times ---All the makeup, clothing, wigs nails and accesories.---with nothing MORE to advance to, it Might take the "charge out of the system. I have been a lot "calmer" myself lately and feel the CD need only if I discoer something NEW I havent tried yet---Say false eyelashes, a new makeup trick, etc.

Teresa Amina

09-26-2008, 08:57 AM

There is, of course, an acid test- go on an anti-androgen (preferably under medical supervision) just long enough to disable your male sexual function. You will recover your function when you go off it, if you choose, but it will become clear if this is a fetish or a true Trans situation.

Priss

09-26-2008, 12:50 PM

I think the real key to figuring out where we each belong in the vast spectrum called transgender, has to be taking the time to sit down and listen to ourselves. All of the answers we will ever seek in life are truly within each and every one of us.

I knew when...

I've known all my life ofcourse, however I think there is one moment for all of us when the truth of it all hits us like a ton of bricks on the top of the head... I was sitting alone one night at home, reading a copy of one of the scandal rags like the Star or Enquirer, when I came across an article about a TS who had seem to have acquired someone to pay for her surgery. Sugar daddy or whatever, doesn't matter... Something inside me suddenly spoke up and said "I wish I could do that...", and at that moment my conscious self just happened to be listening. It was scary, because setting my foot on such a path meant a whole lot of hardship, pain, lonliness etc... Over the next week or so, I had to figure out just how serious I was about it and whether or not I had the guts to actually set my foot on the path. Like everything else it started with baby steps, but quickly turned into a run. About six months after the ton of bricks, I had transitioned living full time complete with name legally changed. I may look back from where Iam now, but would not change my course.

The only help any one of us can give you, is to tell you to seek a therapist to help you take a look at yourself. That and to tell you to look deep inside and answer that question for yourself. Be prepared to take a good hard look and really listen to your feelings, your inner voice... You can compare yourself to the experiences of the rest of us all day long, but it doesn't answer the question of what you are.:2c:

tgirlinva

09-27-2008, 10:21 PM

I am by no means a licensed or trained professional on the matter, but to me, you sound like a CD b/c most of the things you listed pertained to your outward appearance (i.e. clothing). I thought at first I was a CD, but contrary to you, the feminine/womanly feelings I have are from within. I described everything with "I feel" instead of "I wear" or "I look". So, to me, it appears to me that you're a CD who perhaps wants to perfect her look. Just my :2c:! G'luck

GypsyKaren

09-28-2008, 08:41 AM

sybercom11

10-08-2008, 11:22 AM

For me, I have never needed to dress up in order to have feminine feelings. I mean I could be nakey and still feel feminine. I don't need to put on a wig and lots of makeup and ****ty heels and then go out in public.

I wear in public girls clothes that I can get away with and that includes girlie tank tops, short shorts and flip flops -- sort of what regular guys wear, but only the female version.

People can see my shaved legs and probably are saying under their breath, look at that sissy faggot, but so what, I'm just being me. I am a sissy girl so I am just being me.

So if being a crossdresser means wigs and dresses, I don't do that a lot. I do it and take some pictures sometimes, but I don't go out in public that way.

Like I said, I can feel that I should have been a girl no matter what I am wearing.

Miss Tessa

10-19-2008, 01:54 PM

Yeah hunny, it doesn't seem transsexual to me. Your symptoms seem more CD or maybe TV.

Like the lady mentioned about, she thought you was trying to get away with stuff in order to receive some sort of thrill from it.

And yes the Spironolactone will help tell the truth when your libido subsides and your feelings will be left.

Rita C.

10-20-2008, 06:06 AM

Its not the felling to just wear female clothes: Its what you fell in side. My self, its all the things only a female would fell, for me its so hard to explan I just know that the fellings I have are real to me. Since my male hormons have slowed down in my older age, my breast have devloped to a C cup and my doctor say its not old man fat. (am not that old) I"ll go into it at more at a later date. Girls, just try to listen to you fellings.

Melissa Monet

10-20-2008, 10:20 AM

Your a CD, the one line about only dressing for a few years gave you away. I cannot stop thinking about how I am presenting and interacting as a woman on a daily basis. Ive been FT for 4 months. and my obsession with articles of clothing has lifted, I now actually buy clothes that fit and are age specific. I am trying to blend as well as I can. I work very hard at being a ally and coworker with women, men are inconsequintial to me any more. So you tell me what am I?

Beth-Lock

10-20-2008, 02:34 PM

Marina Twelve
But is the taboo crossing high, even if caught up in the whole thing, representative of the main line of the drive, (where it would be a defining characteristic), or just a side-effect? It may be a powerful enough side-effect to act like an addiction, but it may not be what the whole thing is about. Taboos may act as guards against identity drift, but the identity may want to drift for other reasons.
One spirit, (Seth of the Jane Roberts books), felt that the gender identities so stereotyped in the 1950's, are just uncomfortable because they do not fit anyone perfectly, and with some people the fit is less comfortable than with others. So one gets pain which it is natural to seek to avoid.
Then there is the neurotic's intolerance and obsession with psychic pain. Kafka, a neurotic indeed, said people strain against their bonds or 'wall(s)' naturally and if they go far enough, even self-destructively perhaps along with destroying the bonds. (in Der Maur).
Why do I dress? Not just because it has become a habit, or addiction to a high for there was a time before it became a habit, and there must have been a reason then. I think it might be related to the myth that originally people had both male and female sides, and so were content in themselves. Or just that females around me modeled a sort of object choice that was alluring to try. (Object choice meaning the emotional values seemingly inherent in female clothing, or projected into them, according to Freud.)
What do you think about these ideas?

AKAMichelle

10-20-2008, 03:50 PM

I understand your questions because at the age of 8, I use to pray to wake up as a girl. Then as a teenager and young adult, the crossdressing had a high and a sexual component associated with it. Now at the age of 48, everything seems to be changing. Crossdressing is not done for the high but to feel more like I wish I could be.

I have a lot of conflict at the moment because I feel like a man and woman both inside. I feel the most at peace when presenting and conducting myself like a woman. So there is my rub. So as part of my knowledge gathering exercise, I am presenting almost full time as a woman. I am not taking hormones, but I am doing things to help with my appearance (Laser Hair Removal). Regardless of my final decision, I want to be able to go out of the house and present as a woman to the best of my ability.

I had a friend of mine explain balance in his life to me in such a way that I wanted to find the balance in my life. Here is what he said: "It has certainly helped when I am dressed as I recognize that I am the same person no matter how I present myself. I don't "cower" as some of our crossdressing sisters do when out and about. I don't hide away. Instead, I live my life and behave as I would no matter what clothes I have on." That is where I want to be in my life. I am trying to figure out who I am in my life regardless of what clothes I have on.

I hope this helps you find your path. I think you need to spend time figuring out who you are and why. Then and only then can you answer your question. Good Luck to you.

Nicki B

10-20-2008, 04:14 PM

Well for a start, how do you define transgendered? Some here seem to equate it to transsexual.. :idontknow:

But I don't think any of us can tell you what you are, as some here seem to be doing - and you haven't explained why a label would matter to you?

FWIW, I don't believe you can look inside yourself and know, straightaway - you have to let yourself have time to strip away the layers you have buried your feelings under. And, IME, doing tells you far more about yourself than just introspection..

melissaK

10-20-2008, 04:21 PM

Hmmm. Well, I can make an argument several ways for you. Which way do you want to go?

Since no one really knows what makes any of us tick, (i.e. until someone labels some genes we have that others don't) it's all a bunch of guesswork, and it amounts to little more than attempts to create labels that convey useful generalizations so we can talk about each other.

So where you think you fit in so we can talk about you is what probably matters most. I'm tempted to think you are a TS in denial - but I always project too much of my own issues into my thinking about others. :heehee:

hugs,
'lissa

noeleena

10-21-2008, 06:48 AM

hi... being both male & female ... well i am yet i knew i was female inside. oh very strong . just could not do any thing about it .. for 50 years . then 11 years ago i knew i would live the rest of my life as me a women . yet still being male . i was given the help i needed to be able to do that. yes ... s r s & b a so the real me is that ...other women ... at 61 ...oh yea ... so some of us are both m & f . how far we go is up to us . each one of us will find our true selfs it takes time. for me a long time yet still knowing at age 10 ... of cause there is a lot more than what i have said here ....dont try & push it one way or the other just let the real you come out now ill say it this way i am a transfemale ,,, a women that is me .....just because i dont have a womb does not say i am not a women . just because i was not born with one does that mean i can not be that women . no . when you know inside who you are . then . thats who you are...not every one has a perfect body i dont ,,, so what . that does not stop me from being who i am ..... ...noeleena ...

sandra-leigh

10-21-2008, 10:16 AM

Thanks, everyone, for the resurgence of interest in my question! I sort of burnt out a bit just in the asking of it; and I've been burning myself out in other ways in the volunteer technical support that I do (so many people needing help... so many people asking the wrong questions, who have to be educated as to why their question was wrong and what they need to examine in order to get to a right question...)

I need to start getting ready for work in a few minutes (should have started already :straightface: ) so I'll just add something quick here:

Especially in the earlier responses, a number of people were implicitly making a dichotomy, a supposition that a male who wears womens' clothes is either cross-dresser or transsexual, with no possibility between the two, and no other choice; and thus that if I am not transsexual then (by the law of the excluded middle), I must be a cross-dresser. But the core parts of my question are about the other possibilities, the "two-spirited", the "bi-gendered", the androgyne, and so on: if a person suspects (or believes) that they might incorporate significant aspects of both male and female, then how to know?

(Sorry, additional response will have to wait for later.)

Beth-Lock

10-21-2008, 09:38 PM

Ah yes, the Law of the Excluded Middle. I have too much middle myself, and would like to exclude it from getting in the way of getting close, but have yet to find a good enough girdle.
More seriously, a logical analysis of the proposed definitions of transgendered and cross dresser would be called for. I always thought transgendered was a nice euphemism which embraced a number of gender peculiarities or particularities, and it has been news to me that it has a meaning that obeys the law of the excluded middle, as specified above. In other words, it always seemed to me like a generalization, a category that embraced serious cross-dressing, bigendered feelings/self-perception and living in the opposite gender to which you are born, without the aid of sexual reassignment surgery, and probably more. I hate seeing these terms turned into pejoratives by one group or another.

Sharon

10-22-2008, 04:35 AM

Especially in the earlier responses, a number of people were implicitly making a dichotomy, a supposition that a male who wears womens' clothes is either cross-dresser or transsexual, with no possibility between the two, and no other choice;

Your definition of "transgender" is quite correct, but since there is such a difference of opinion in this forum about the meaning of the word, it is left to the reader to decide what the author meant. By opening the thread with the sentence "How do you know whether you are "transgendered" or just a crossdresser?" i made the incorrect assumption. I assumed you yourself meant there was a distinct difference.

I apologize for making the error and just ignore my previous reply.

RikkiOfLA

10-26-2008, 05:26 AM

Like the wisest of the other posters, I can not tell you which labels apply to you, or which don't. Indeed, we (this community) are not sure of the precise meaning of some of the labels (like transgendered or transvestite). Before they will stick very well to someone else, there would have to be a consensus of what they mean, wouldn't there?

But what I would share with you is some wise advise I was given when I was new to exploring my own gender questions and I asked similar questions.

First, don't worry about labels at this point. Find out what feels comfortable for you, and what doesn't. Try some different things. Along the way, you'll discover soon enough what best describes you.

Second, don't worry about fitting into neat categories. Be yourself. After all, the question about terminology is whether the terminology describes what you do and feel, not whether you are obeying the terminology.

Third, remember that as you give yourself permission truly to discover who you are, what you feel most comfortable with may change. For example, I went through an androgynous phase many years ago. It was very exciting at the time, and I learned a lot of self-confidence from doing it. But I ended up somewhere else, living fulltime as a woman.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Rikki

T Sara Lynn

10-29-2008, 12:16 AM

But I don't think any of us can tell you what you are, as some here seem to be doing - and you haven't explained why a label would matter to you?

FWIW, I don't believe you can look inside yourself and know, straightaway - you have to let yourself have time to strip away the layers you have buried your feelings under. And, IME, doing tells you far more about yourself than just introspection..

Agreed, completely. And I repeat Nicki's question: why do you concern yourself over a label? You are who you are.

~~~~Sara Lynn

avril findlay

10-29-2008, 12:44 AM

Knowing you should have a vagina between your legs rather than a penis would I think make you a transexual woman.

Loving dressing as the opposite gender would make you a CDr.

Steph Butterfield

10-29-2008, 03:51 AM

I am not "transgender" , never was, and I feel less and less "transsexual", so leaves just me, Stephanie, a woman, after all it says "sex girl" on my birth certificate, good enough for me.

Stephanie

empressdiver

10-29-2008, 09:58 PM

Well, you are definitely doing a lot of cross-dressing, but it also appears that this activity is not entirely satisfying you and is not your final destination. I wouldn't be too concerned with putting a label on it at this point because you appear to be in a transition or exploratory stage.

What is important is your internal gender identity and whether you are fulfilled by your current efforts. There does not appear to be a clear unequivocal desire or absolute need on your part to totally become a woman and to do everything that it takes to achieve it.

It appears to me that you are probably androgynous, that your internal gender identity is both male and female, and that you express both genders depending on how you feel. And it may be that this is your long-term internal identity.

If so, you should probably not do anything too drastic, because you may not be happy living as, or being, a woman. However, you might try seeing a doctor to get a prescription for Premarin, which is an estrogen. You can try this for about 3 months to see if you like the gradual effects of feminization and some breast development. As a precaution, you could use a sperm bank in the event you ever wanted children.

morgan pure

11-03-2008, 06:33 PM

Thank you girls! This is getting deep! The "mechanism" of the discovery exists. Many many people never even approach breaking taboos. Most people. The sexual role definition is an ancient cultural determinent, even if it hasn't been bred into us through selective breeding. Some cultures accept cross-gender behaviors, but they don't produce offspring, hence it's not selected for. But, because of the flexibility of gender-questionable people, they often swing both ways and do breed. But it's gotta be recessive.

WHEN did I realize that my behavior was diametrically opposed to cultural norms? Very very early. My earliest memory is when I was six, wearing my mother's bra. I knew not to tell anyone.

Tess-Leigh,
I don't know what you are. How about "fem-boy?"

I love these discussions.

Jessicaparkson

11-03-2008, 07:39 PM

I don't have much of a voice here (Call me nub) but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I know who I am because I've always felt that way. Dressing has never given me any sexual satisfaction, only self fulfillment. I have a friend who was going to go through this with me and actually started with me. But after a while of talking about it they decided they weren't a trans..they were happy with themselves and with their CDing. In the end its like the old disney saying. Follow your heart.

morgan pure

11-06-2008, 11:07 PM

Clothes have always been very important to me, dressing gives that frisson(?) the confirmation-it completes the picture. It's also the transgression thing. I remember when I was young. I knew my mother and my neighbors wouldn't what was in my mind, but she could find a bra under my bed, and she once did. I was exhilarated by the danger, and proud of my audacity. Now, decades later, I have to be in a dress whenever I can. I even keep a bikini on the boat. The fetish aspect is the sexual side. I'll do stuff to a guy in drag that I'll never do just naked.
Morgan

shirley1

11-30-2008, 12:33 AM

I think there can be a lot of similarities between being cd and ts certainly in the early days, not all know from an early age, I didn't, and I have always felt the need to dress from an early age so the clothes for me at least did come into it and still do. I've thought I might be TS since my late teens but always dismissed the idea, after all I am perceived as male by everyone around me and I look male in the mirror.

With me the dysphoria just seemed to get stronger over the years, then I was seriously confused about my gender. As soon as I stepped out the door en femme I very quickly realised that this is the real me, who has just been hiding away all these years behind a mask of masculinity. Going out presenting as a women and being treated as a women by others just very quickly became normality to me, plus I have always envied girls and women all my life, wished I could look like them, have a body like theirs ect, its how you feel about yourself inside and out, only you can know whether you are ts or cd, nobody else can give you that answer.

Kaitlyn Michele

11-30-2008, 10:45 AM

Kristilady

12-09-2008, 03:40 PM

The realization for me was that I thought for many years that I was a CD even though I had a strong compulsion to dress like a woman. A friend of mine told me a number of years ago that I was just kidding myself. I was a transgender without a doubt.
The differerence that I can see is that I feel and want to act and be a woman. Clothes are not the main thing that drive me. They are only part of the entire package. I am totally turned on in my brain when I am accepted as a woman. I love other women to accept me as one of them. I love the glances and the gentle treatment by men. I love feeling like the woman when I talk to a man. I am happy being a gal with even just a pair of jeans and a top. It is a feeling that I cannot avoid and I know that i am just not like a man or even crossdressers.

PortiaHoney

12-09-2008, 05:50 PM

morgan pure

12-30-2008, 09:14 PM

Oh, Portia,
I could have written your post. I am only my best self when being a woman. I did drag in a very open environment for 10 years, so got my need for public acceptance exercized. I started hormones, and like another poster here, felt normal for the first time in my life.
I am not definitely on the way to surgery. I'm very in between. I can still easily hide my slight development, and look better in drab than drag, although Im still skinny.
You don't have to decide what you are. Follow your need.

roogby

12-31-2008, 03:17 AM

dear tess,

i have read the entirety of the post and my eyes are about to pop out of my eye sockets.

but besides that, i believe you are just a person! for sure, we don't fit normal conventions, and being label-less is difficult not only in terms of convenience, but psychologically...in my mind, i always ask, "i know i'm me, but WHAT am i?"

i am like you in that i am not exactly sure where i fall, at all. i know the most of my situation, and if i can't answer who i am, then nobody can. even if there were a million different labels for everyone who falls between cd and transgendered, you STILL might not fit!

but i know what you're trying to get at. could you be bi-gendered, or whatever, some convenient label, and could someone identify that? maybe. but as important as that seems to you right now, it isn't. walk a new path, take a different step than what's already prescribed. it's scary, but it's alright.

you can do it, and i'll be right there with you.

Kimberly Marie Kelly

01-12-2009, 07:55 PM

I wear feminine items at work, wear makeup and jewelry, no wigs or forms yet. I wear feminine pants some days and other day's wear mens pants. The makeup and the jewelry I've been wearing for the last several months. I also go out dressed to shop from time to time.

I've been questioning what I am, whether I'm a crossdresser or Transsexual. I've crossdressed for over 45 years but in the last 2yrs the desire to be dressed is stronger and getting stronger. Thru my life didn't think too much whether I was more female or Male, but in the last several years I've come to the realization that I am more feminine than male.. Recently my HR manager approached me and asked if I'm transitioning, that the company can provide help and support in my transitioning ( read my post about HR conversation).

The question that I would like to ask, is it possible that on this journey we go thru, is it possible that we can be in denial of being, a transsexual. If someone else thinks we are transitioning and ask's that question of us, is it possible they see the change in me, more clearly than I see the change in myself? This event last week has clearly gotten me into thinking I am more transsexual than Crossdresser. Now I am exploring where I go from here and how far. As soon as I have better finances I plan on seeking some counseling to help me figure things out.

Tess, my advice is that you are much like me, a TS in denial and to seek out some good gender counseling to sort out the feelings and to explore future paths etc.. Good luck in your journey and if you'd like to talk PM me. :battingeyelashes:

jennylw2

01-12-2009, 10:17 PM

I'm still undecided.

When I was little, I thought I was a girl. When a teen, I was sure I wanted to be a girl. Then I started becoming a man - KWIM - and discovered sex (late starter - 17). Then I focussed on being the man in relationships and just CD'd off and on for 30 years. Just recently I was told to stop being dishonest with myself and face up to who I really am.

I know when I was with a woman, I couldn't perform unless I switched places mentally. I always prided myself on being able to satisfy my partners. This kept me going for ages and then even that didn't work. Who was I kidding. Now, I cannot see myself with a woman because now I realise I get "jealous" and that is not fair on either of us.

So, I have kept going by being "genderless" or mentally a hermaphrodite or "gender blended", whatever.

Now, I am back to unsure. I want to go that next step, but I can't bring myself to take it. So, in order to take the "journey" one has to be moving forward and I seem to be in a place overshadowed by inertia.

Elsewhere there was a thread made about the price of Crossdressing - what is the price for personal fulfilment/self discovery????? I know what prices I have paid so far, how much more?

I really admire the peope who have taken the journey for their courage and conviction. Am I like that?

Wait and see........:straightface:

:hugs:Portia

I feel almost exactly the same especially in regards to my relations with women. I could go forever which is almost always interpreted as a good thing until they realize that they were not 'doing it' for me. I was jealous too and it is unfair I guess. The last relationship ended for pretty much this reason. That was when I realized that this is not going away and I can't hide from it forever. Not sure where it will go, but down the rabbit hole I go. Shoulda taken the blue pill I guess :)

As far as being CD or TG or TS or whatever, who knows. I hate labels, but I know we all need to be able to self describe at some points in our lives. We are just too damned complicated to put into category A or category B imho.

Hang in there. Maybe we will all find what we are looking for if we look hard enough.
Hugz,
Jenny

Melissa A.

01-14-2009, 11:29 AM

i've struggled alot with the question you pose tess...

i crossdressed my whole life...since i was 7...i get a great sexual charge out of it...

i think priss said she had a revelation...i had the exact same revelation looking at ffs pictures on line...i wish i was her..i wish i could do that...!!!!!!!!!!!!!! uh...hint to myself!!! :doh:..then i started considering my dressing...i was ALWAYS dressed head to toe...i was ALWAYS wanting to go out, I was ALWAYS wanting to meet folks dressed...I NEVER stopped thinking about it... hint number 2...

the thing was that i was getting ALL my sexual kicks out of this so i must be a dresser....then i started to meet real ts/tg/cd/tv folks (aside...the labels all suck...we are all unique and special)...meeting ts women was hint number 3 and finally i started HRT with a great therapist...

within days of start of HRT i felt GREAT!!!! i had this internal sensation that I can only describe as feeling "real"....i teeny man boobs (always had'em)..but now they were my "girls" and i felt pride and an intense satisfying wholeness (i know -words are tuff to describe these feelings..but i bet many of you know eggsactly:heehee: what i'm talking about)...now i'm past hints and on to getting hit over the head lessons...

so here i sit...quit my job, on HRT since july...meeting ffs surgeons, ....the thoughts are still constant...there is some sexual feelings about it but it bugs me more than anything

that's why the smartest tg folks i know call it a journey....just remember its your journey and try to be honest with yourself and it should work out for the best

This is Late Onset Transexualism, and it's really common. I should know :) In my case, I actually buried my ts-ness with cding, for a long, long time. Eveyone does it for different reasons, socialization, embarrassment, fear are some of the reasons. Some get themselves into situations they would feel wrong walking away from(marriage, kids, certain careers). Heck, I knew. I knew at 4. you dont cry yourself to sleep wishing you were a girl if everything is great. But I soon discovered dressing. To a 5 year old, that was it. that was the cure I needed. Yeah, you find out pretty darn early that it's not socially acceptable, and you assume that even those who love you the most would never understand. That's ok. I got good at being sneaky. And it worked. So I learned to be a boy to the world, and pretended to be a girl, inside. It worked, because life was simple. I didnt even know what a freaking TS was, and wouldn't find out for a long time. What did I know? I was 5, and it was 1964. Alot of you know the rest of the story. cding made me feel good, even as I proved to the world I was a guy, became an above-average athlete, and learned how to be one of the guys, dated girls, Tried so hard to be normal it hurt. It hurt so much, It was easier to ignore. Even as life gets more and more complex, most of us can learn how to bury stuff that's hard. Unfortunately, it comes out in other, bad ways. Relationships ruined. Sabotaging any success you may have a shot at. Irresponsibility. Risky behavior. Substance abuse. Oh, and the shame and embarrassment at being a guy who likes to crossdress...

....I'm not gonna hijack, sorry. things are turning out really well, albeit a bit late. what am I? I'm a woman. It doesnt matter what I look like, or what I wear. Although presenting as an average looking female makes life a whole lot easier. Tess, I would say you aren't a Transexual. I'm not a proffesional, but that's just my take. Counseling would probably help you alot, to find a balance in your gender struggles. But I think you have shot at things being just fine for you. That you're pretty thoughtful about it all doesn't hurt, either.

The spectrum is pretty wide. Being Transexual is tough, hard work. I embrace it now, but that took a long time. The other forms of GID aren't a walk in the park, either. How can you know? Ask yourself. Don't Bullsh*t yourself. And get help with it. It does work.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

JennSC

01-14-2009, 07:43 PM

I struggle with that, too, but that is where the "trans" in transgendered comes for me!

sandra-leigh

01-14-2009, 09:28 PM

First off, I would like to thank all of those who have responded and kept this thread alive even thought I haven't contributed much to it myself after my initial burst.

I have continued my wayward ways of going to work in "stealth" clothes. I'm still never especially obvious about it, though there are a couple of tops that I wear from time to time that would be slightly difficult to explain due to their small decorative cuts or small embroidery, but which are otherwise quite moderate... e.g., I could probably say, "Oh this? I just thought it looked nice," and be safe enough. But I'm possibly fooling myself more than anyone else: although each individual top might be "close enough", probably the overall trend of them has been enough that people have gotten the idea that There Is Something A Little Odd Going On There. (Sound familiar, Kimberly? :heehee:)

I do still wear "guy" shirts a couple of times a week, especially if I'm feeling a bit low or stressed for some reason -- not in the sense of my feeling comforted by the guy shirts, but (A) I'm not always feeling pretty or outgoing or Tess-y; and (B) if I'm stressed about something (a home situation or a work situation) then removing the question of whether today will be the day that my clothes give me away makes for one less straw on my camel-back.

I've been noticing more that I have become "habituated" to female clothes as "just the clothes I wear", and it is taking more to make me feel like I am cross-dressing. Like wearing a dress, or an obviously feminine skirt, not just a plain solid (but nicely designed) long skirt. I'm sure people could come up with a number of possible explanations for this.

For example, if I wear a long swishy grey skirt "around" (e.g., in the malls, or grocery shopping, or on the bus) several times and no-one seems to care, then empirically I have determined that it is acceptable-enough for a guy to wear such skirts in those situations. So if I go for more, is it because (A) at some level what I really want is to be able to go even further; or (B) because at some level I'm trying to provoke a reaction from people (ala early punk); or (C) because because at some level for some reason or other, I want people to be negative towards me; or (D) that, like a junkie, as I go, I need "stronger doses" to get the same feeling; or (E) that for some reason, I'm still "wanting to be caught" (that is, for my dressing to become public knowledge rather than an open secret)... and if so, then would that desire be there in order that I could be "publicly known" as Tess (and so could dress outside of work on any occasion I felt like), or would that desire to "be caught" be there so that I could openly dress at work?

I am, by the way, becoming more convinced that if for some reason Human Resources told me that it would be acceptable for me to wear a skirt to work, that I would do so. It would depend, of course, on how it was phrased: if it was phrased as "Under the policies, we can't stop you", then I don't know what I would do -- but if it was phrased as something like, "Yes, that is squarely within the diversity policies, and if it is something you want to do, then you would definitely have our backing"... then it would be a decided temptation. And no, I don't think of wearing a skirt to work as something that would be a "thrill", and I absolutely do not imagine standing in the hall and twirling around and saying "Look how beautiful I am!" -- it's just that somehow wearing a moderate skirt feels right to me.

Just after New Years, I got to spend a few days of "24/7", including a shopping trip out to a mall in which I dressed deliberately "sexy". Wigs still feel a little unnatural to me (possibly I should be using a wig that is slightly larger for one thing), but it was a lot of fun to go around as "a woman" for a few days. But I would not say that I had the feeling that I should be "a woman" all of the time. I would not mind :heehee: if it was easier for me to become a convincing female -- I would prefer to at least regularly pass the Cab Driver Test, which I fail nearly all of the time ("Sir" :Angry3:).

Tess, I would say you aren't a Transexual. I'm not a proffesional, but that's just my take.

I really don't know what I am. I don't feel like I am "really a woman inside". And I don't notice that I am becoming "any less of a man" as I go along; and I don't "hate men" at all, and I've enjoyed my "one eyed monster" and do not wish to be rid of it. But something is pushing me towards the middle ground, pushing me to wear "women's clothes", pushing me to wish I had nice breasts with cleavage (about DD feels right for me, but I'd be thrilled with even a large B if I had cleavage)... something pushed me far enough that I got both of my ears pierced on January 2nd, with me emphasizing to the professional piercer that I wanted the holes positioned so that I could wear feminine earrings (and I went to the piercer completely Dressed to emphasize the context.)

I don't have any goal in any of this... I am adrift as to a purpose to all of this in my life. I don't feel like I am "transsexual" -- but it cannot be denied that I am something different than, or more than, a (typical) male.

morgan pure

01-18-2009, 07:02 PM

Oh my darling Tess,
You are the most precious girl. Girl. I have a trannie friend a lot like you. Now really, if you need to wear a skirt to the mall, then you definately need to wear it all the time. The real question: are you ready to spend an hour on make-up and hair every morning and double your spending on clothes. Double? Quadruple. But if you have to, you have to.
And thank you Melissa. Nice post.
Morgan

Beth-Lock

01-18-2009, 07:16 PM

Some people are ambivalent, like me. This morning I was fed up with being a girl and dressed like a guy. By early afternoon the clothes were feeling uncomfortable physically, and I went back to being a girl.
As a result, I dress stealth as you call it, or unisex as I call it, (dressed in mainly or all female clothes but not noticeably), anytime I need to go out.
I consider myself bigendered these days.

Naleen

01-25-2009, 06:18 PM

I have pondered about this myself ever since i can remember (5 years old i think)
I have always gotten on well with other females and understanding them more than other males. From the age of 14 I have always disliked the feel of the male genitals and wished they would go away, but reserve sperm in a bank just incase I would like a family in my new body. After the chop it would be difficult to get any.
I have always wanted to have a new female body.
Currently i feel my inside is a lesbian woman and very feminine. I have been complemented by other Gfemale friends about my views, and statements on how they look. If they look aweful i will tell them.

So I dont know if Im just a CDr or something a bit more.

pruella

01-26-2009, 07:18 AM

How do you know whether you are "transgendered" or just a crossdresser? This isn't the usual question about how do you know whether you are "transsexual".

Um, last time I checked Crossdressers came under the Transgendered Umbrella.

I do not feel like "I should have been a woman", and I am not sexually attracted to men.

I missed the page in the manual that said all woman must be attracted to men. My wife isn't attracted to men. I'm not attracted to men.

But that's defining me by what I am not,

Occums Razer:

and there is a lot of ground between "being a male who likes to dress in womens' clothes" and "being a genetic male who would be better off as a female".

And often a cross over in between.

Where I stand:

Ok let me answer them from my perspective.

- a genetic male

I'm Intersexed, genetically both. But was brought up convincingly as a male, albeit a very depressed male who felt something was missing or unbalanced. Never realised I was depressed though.

- who did not "grow up in the wrong body"

My body was modified at birth. I guess it's wrong. Some TS do feel that, a few don't.

- who does not hate his male organs or their associated sensations

Some TS don't hate their male genitals or the sensations. I don't, although as I break down down my barriers from the past, I have having more 'Transsexual Ja Vu'

- who likes wearing womens' clothes

Before they were classed as women's clothes they were just clothes people wore!

- who did some minor dressing experimentation when young (just one variety amongst other experimentations)

All kids do that. Some have different motivations though. But then my daughter like to dress up like Fairies and Princesses. It doesn't mean they are!

- who has only been cross-dressing for about 4 years... but in retrospect, whom had been "trying things on to see how they look" more and more often for a few years before the idea of actually wearing some of them came to mind

Sounds a bit Autogynephillia to me. Borderline Fetish! But then, I make fantasies into film!

I never experienced that 'early' dressing thing, at least I can't uncover a memory yet, but then I only have a total of about 45 minutes of memories prior to age 25.

- who has worn panties nearly every day for close to 2 years, and no longer "feels right" in men's underwear... a psychological dependancy?

That is very Transvestite Fetish. I say that because it's a secret inside expression that you are, it seems, by your own words, dependent on and therefore affects the normality of your life.

I have to admit, ladies underwear is far more well manufatured and fitting than lousy mens underwear which are made very generically to 'fit all' - now imagine if bras were made with just one cup size!

- who wears womens pants to work the great majority of the time (but who wears men's pants too)

Men's Pants? Pant's were anatomically designed for women! Hello! History lesson! MEN have been cross dressing in womens pants for 230 years!

Women have been cross dressing in mens high heels for 240 years!

Refer to comment above about mens underwear manufacture.

- who often wears subtle female shirts/tops to work, but will wear men's shirts too... especially if the men's shirts are some of the bulkier ones that hide forms well

Well reality check here - refer again to comment about mens clothing manufacture. Bulk and baggy is right - and one size fits all - except most.

- who does sometimes wear a bra at work, having chosen his top/shirt so that the bra won't "show through"

This could be fetish.

See I don't understand the "secret" side. Mainly cause I just 'switched' over night.

- who does sometimes wear forms at work while working (knowing that he doesn't actively work with people so few people are likely to have a chance of observing them)

Sound more and more like a very low grade Transsexual!

- who does not spend all day thinking about how pretty his panties are or how what sexy his clothes must look. At work, he does think about his appearance sometimes, perhaps some concern about having over-done it... and if he is wearing forms then he is more likely to think about appearance and about dressing

That's the RISK OF DISCOVERY factor kicking in - the adrenaline rushing all day, the unexpected factor. That's quite fetish really.

- who would seriously consider (e.g., likely would try it and see how it goes) wearing skirts to work some days "as a guy" if somehow the message came down that that would be acceptable to management;

That's called Queerf*cked. It's Well defined. Also refered to as Gender Benders.

http://www.tgender.net/taw/tggl/index.html

Might be of use to you.

I have always allowed free expression in the work place. Although there are times when limitations of apply such as special events and exhibitions. But I encourage staff to bring their expression to me far enough in advance to give me an idea on what they want to do. Many usually come up with ray things that are an enhancement to our appearance and attention, so I'm usually very very supportive.

I grimaced when my PA turned up on her first day working with me with Orange Hair. I said nothing for a week. then I asked why. After that, every project she changed her hair colour, quite dramatically sometimes. Even though she quickly become an Executive Producer and a Producer amoungst other things, her uniqueness was very positive for our whole team. We even use to have votes to select the colour and bets to see what colour she'd walk in with.

So why not approach your management and ask - refer to the web link above and, well a Happy Employee is a Productive Employee.

- who hasn't thought much about presenting as a female (wig and all) at work

You don't have to. Pixar have 'Eyeshadow Friday' and 'Dress Day' and so on. Staff are encouraged to express everything they can, be they male, female or anything else. There aren't any real rules apparently.

Some cross dress for a laugh, and rightly so, Pixar's teams are exceptional in the world. If their crazyiness and bravado wasn't expressed then their films would be a dull as some of those other studios! Too Adult not enough kid!

- who sometimes wears nail strengthener or clear nail polish, but does not often wear nail polish at work (a light pink is not unknown), and who does not usually wear nail polish even "out" (partly because it is a nuisance to put on)

Check out the site link above, go back a menu to the Section on Cross Dressers. Note the attitude about 'hair and nails'

- who rarely wears makeup of any kind to work (might have chanced light mascera twice or so)

Many cosmetics companies have badged 'Man' cosmetic now.

- who does not wear a lot of makeup even when fully Dressed

Lucky you! I spent 10-30 mins a day doing mine.

- who doesn't bother to "practice" female things much at all -- doesn't bother to practice makeup, has never bothered to study voice, doesn't pay a lot of attention to walk

I don't practice at all. I spent 30 years practicing to be male, and not very successfully. Got called Girl a lot. Now they call me a Bloke a lot. Can't win!

But nothing wrong with dressing without the feminist. As someone said at Church yesterday - it's just clothes.

- who, in other words, is not even remotely "consumed" by the need to "pass" in the sense of being 90-whatever percent taken as female

Now sounds like high level Cross Dresser, without the Female pyshcology.

- who most taxi drivers immediately call "sir" even when fully Dressed... before he has even spoken

But you aren't trying to be a Miss!

- who would prefer to be more regularly thought of as a woman when fully Dressed, and who would prefer to be less easily recognized as his male self when fully Dressed (partly because recognized implies knowledge of original gender), but whom just gets a bit disappointed about it and whom doesn't spend a lot of time dwelling on it

But you don't seem to be creating a gender appearance. You seem to be creating a personal comfort.

- who often shops for female clothes while in drab, and who speaks openly about the clothes being for him in the stores, and who openly tries things in in stores without worrying that other shoppers will notice that he is trying on womens' clothes

Yup, I did that just before my transition. No one believed me. Then I shocked them! *giggles*

- who spends a fair bit of time and research thinking about what size of breasts he would like to have for himself

Stick with the forms. I suspect you would be very disappointed with real breasts or implants.

- but for whom, the urge towards actual breasts seems to be getting stronger

They aren't erotic. They aren't going to be Double Gs.

- for whom wearing silicone forms around a D cup "just feels right", feeling like he should have something that shape and weight on his body, and when he is without them for more than a few days, it feels as if "something is missing"

See this is falling back into TV Fetishism again.

- who, if breast enlargement was gradual, would let the breasts be observed more and more with the "this is how I am" reasoning... but who is not certain how he would handle the situation in case of sudden breast enlargement (e.g., implants)

Again this is TV Fetishism.

So, given all of that... how do I tell if I am really transgender, or if I'm really just a cross-dresser with a breast fetish?

Well you are Transgendered simply by the challenge you present to perceived gender norms. What category of TG you are is quite vauge! You appear to intersect a lot of lines!

- Cross Dresser
- Gender bender
- Transvestite Fetishism (affects your normal day to day)
- Even a hint of Transsexualism but not enough to have SRS

I am willing to (and do) go out in public to be seen as a male with female clothing and with the most obvious of the female

Nothing wrong with that if you are comfortable.

It means I have the appearance of mixing male and female (and to be clear, I enjoy wearing skirts even as a guy)...

It's OK, Men wore tights and skirts for years before Pants were stolen from the women!

Is the difference between "crossdresser" and "transgender" as simple as "if you seriously consider body modifications beyond hair removal, then you have gone beyond cross-dressing to transgender or transsexual" ?

Again watch those terms. But some CDs do the whole works, voice, hair, makeup, body hair. But they are just men who like to express their fem peronality. Nothing wring with that, they tend to be more socialable and understanding of TS, unlike TV Fetishism who think that if you dress in women's clothes you want to give every bloke that walks past fellatio.

The imputous to this questions is that I started thinking about telling my mother that I consider myself to be transgender -- so I had to starting thinking of answers to the obvious question "Well, what does that mean for you?"

Actually it means all those things you said above. That is WHAT you ARE! Evidently you aren't hiding it.

And interestingly you haven't really mentioned Sexual element, so the TV Fetishism seems to be very selfish based. As I said, just intersecting the lower levels of TV and TS. If that helps you express yourself fully, confidently and happily then, well, so what! Just Do It!

For what it is worth, the COG-whatever pseudo-science test rates me as "androgeneous" (towards the male side)

Yes my wife got similar, but no polarizing :)

Me I got told I was a woman all the way!

and claims that I would likely suffer if I were forced to polarize towards to side or the other. Which summary does agree with how I feel. I don't feel especially that I am a woman, but I also think it is "too late to put the genie back in the bottle" and go back to being "just a male".

So don't! Have fun! If you do dress up as Jenie (from I Dream of Jenie) please post photos!

I could imagine that at some point, after retirement maybe, or perhaps on a longer vacation, I might experiment with presenting as female "full time" for a period and see how I like that, but I do not have any inclination towards SRS. I do not rule out hormones... but definitely not until I've given up on the possibility of becoming a father!

Hormones are another issue, as is SRS. But 'living full time as a woman' is no big deal really. You could easily do it within your current life it seems. Hit the work place and see if they will cooperate. Worst case you give a few people something to laugh about and crack jokes. Sounds like you'd probably enjoy that anyway!

jacindie

02-05-2009, 11:01 AM

This is a question I've been asking myself lately...am I or am I not ts?I've read alot about transexuals and how clothes really don't mean alot to them but I think as much as that might be true just because someones really into clothes doesn't mean theyre not TS.I need to wear womens clothes in order to feel right.I love pantyhose and wear then everyday and most transexuals are not like this but I have read about gg's who love pantyhose just as much as I do, If I was born a girl I truely believe I'D wear pantyhose just as much as I do now! There are many gg's who love fashion and dress up alot!Not all gg's wear nothing but jeans and tshirt.

Jacindie

Kaitlyn Michele

02-05-2009, 12:50 PM

when you ask the question of whether you are "ts", you could be asking alot of things...many ts women never transtion, transition without srs, live without hormones, i beleive that you can be ts and not "know" it in the sense that we all know it.....the mind is incredible and if it can repress your nature for 30 yrs, why not 70 yrs?...although i do know 2 70+ yr old transitioners and they are very bitter folks.....and btw ...all crossdressers are different too....some like the sexiness, some like calm of it, some just like to freak people out....why all the definitions??? i know we are stuck with them because to transition and get my hormones and surgeries, i need dr's letters that basically say i'm ts, which is "officially" a mental disorder in the US and i think in Britain too.....a mental disorder that insurance doesnt help pay for!!!ugh

so as many point out, why define it?...its just what you do.....i repeat...its what you do!!!!

i'm very interested in this topic....when i go out and hang out with t-friends that are anything but post-op women....we talk on and on about this...why? why me? poor me, what will i tell my wife, what am i? am i really ts? etc etc..

when i go out with post op women we talk about music, movies, sports, our families....etc....outside of trans related politics, i've cant recall this type of discussion among a group post - ops.....of course, knowing my situation, i do get lots and lots of advice from post op women...

here's a tidbit from one....she said something like ..."i feel like i was on a long train ride, i could not get off the train no matter how hard i tried, i was tired, hungry, the train seemed to be out of control at times, and nothing else mattered, then all of sudden, my stop came up and i got off the train, and then i thought, where am i? what should i do now?...but i was a woman and i was very happy to be in that place"

does that sound like what you want?...i myself can't wait to get off on my stop....it certainly didnt deter me from my course...of course, i can't get off the train if i wanted!!!!!!

for me it was the pile up of life experience that finally broke my male spirit, which for me, was just a mirage....being a guy is great...IF YOU"RE A GUY!!!!!!!!!!! over time, everything about my male life weighed on my more and more and as melissa pointed out....its not Bull@)#T, its hard hard stuff, it was totally devasting to me to have all of my inner defenses fall apart ...inner defenses built around shame, guilt, and dare i say male obligation (guys just don't do this!!!) these are powerful emotions and not easily dealt with.....

so i totally broke down and i know lots of you have as well, and as i come up out of it, i'm still very lonely and emotional and the ups and downs are many....but i keep going!!! for MY OWN reasons....i'm DOING MY THING, and you can define me any way you want...i know genetically i was born a man, but my brain will not allow me to function as a guy...every time something happens to slow down my seemingly endless transition (i only started hrt in july heh), makes me miserable and brings back all that gender dysphoria...

tess--- all these thoughts you are having are totally normal human behavior...not typical of most but we were all put on this earth somehow and a whole bunch of us are stuck with this and many many sadly commit suicide!! over it, end up homeless over it, or end up beat up or shamed by it...
I FINALLY after many years of hating myself over it, decided to celebrate it and most importantly ACCEPT it...

tess....you seem to accept yourself just fine!!!
that took me 4 years of hell.......so I say just keep doing what you are doing, and explore your own self....with an OPEN mind, no shame, no guilt, just you being you and see what happens....you are doing great and you are definitely not alone! If you are starting to feel dysphoric, you can tell there are lots of folks here who know what you're talking about and you can share with us....same goes if you feel you are androgenous and want to live a dual life

michele

pruella

02-06-2009, 12:04 PM

i know we are stuck with them because to transition and get my hormones and surgeries, i need dr's letters that basically say i'm ts, which is "officially" a mental disorder in the US and i think in Britain too.....a mental disorder that insurance doesnt help pay for!!!ugh

The 16 yo in Germany got her SRS on Insurance because it was defined as an illness!

GID isn't a mental illness. It is defined in the DSM only for the purposes of being readily available for 'professionals' to have some guide.

GID could be considered a mental condition. After all, the brain is hormonally programed to be one way whilst the body is another way. After birth, maybe it is an illness or a congenital disease. It's definitely congenital. But a disease? No, it doesn't qualify a one. A 'Syndrome' maybe.

But it's not a mental illness.

It is important to note though, that many TS people can have, and it is typical, to have one or more mental illness conditions. Depression is a mental illness. Treating a TS for depression symptoms will not treat the Gender Dysphoria. If the GID isn't treated, then the depression remains, even if you take 10,000 megagram of Anti Depressants each day.

so as many point out, why define it?...its just what you do.....i repeat...its what you do!!!!

Not quite. Cross Dressing is 'what you do' being TS is 'what you are' labeled as.

The difference between being TS and CD is simple. One is what you want to do - dress - and you will talk about dressing. One is what you are - the clothes are just a social convenience.

i'm very interested in this topic....when i go out and hang out with t-friends that are anything but post-op women....we talk on and on about this...why? why me? poor me, what will i tell my wife, what am i? am i really ts? etc etc..

Firstly you don't 'dress' and wonder if you are TS. You can wear anything you like, but you will still be TS.

Your t-friends talk about 'it' because some are seeking justification of their denial. Usually, from my experience, the denial is their sexuality, not their gender.

CD's who are OUT to wives, children, workplace, family etc have no issue. They don't pend hours talking about how to keep it secret, how to avoid their stash of clothes being found. Actually CDs who are out are pretty dull ordinary every day people. They just take a bit more care with their appearance, be it male or female, and tend to be more sensitive.

TVs however are orientation confused - at least in my experience. "How do I tell my wife I dress in women's clothes" is the least of their worries, as they gasp the words between thrust of their male partner. I'd be more concerned about them telling their wive that the business meeting on the other side of town on Friday night was a bloke orgy. The women clothes are jut the justification so they can 'do it' with a man. Well they are a woman afterall, and women have ex with men - right? So they aren't gay, they are straight married males.

(Yes I have a problem with these TV men! At least I can admit it! I think it's the denial and deceptiveness of them, that affects me, their wives and their families that annoys me so much. Then they have the nerve to lie to add to it!)

Being different is never easy. Society has for years, through religious pressure created 'perceptions' of sexuality, gender and what is 'accepted' - at least accepted by their narrow mindedness!

GOD did afterall make us as we are, otherwise, blame the parents for the faulty genes, gender, sexuality, not me, and certainly not God.

I was just thinking.

I want SRS because it will make me right. I will no longer have to have seedy secret sex with men because it's the only sex I can get - and in the 'male' form, I'd be having gay sex.

Post SRS, I'd be having straight sex and those seedy men who want sex with a penis won't be interested in me, but men who want to have sex with a woman will be.

Problem solved! A TV is not going to want to have straight sex without a penis! A CD tends not to have a sexual connection to dressing and most are straight and not interested in sex with a man anyway. Some are bi, and the ones I know, their wives know too.

when i go out with post op women we talk about music, movies, sports, our families....etc....outside of trans related politics, i've cant recall this type of discussion among a group post - ops.....of course, knowing my situation, i do get lots and lots of advice from post op women...

What is a Post Op Woman?

I know what a Post Op M2F Transsexual is - she is a woman.

I sympathies with 'Post Op' F2M Transsexuals, but they are just Men. Even if the 'Op' part is grossly lacking.

The reason you have a totally different discussion is because people who are clear in themselves don't need to ask about how to label themselves, or what others think they are, or how to tell their wives what they are.

I'm even starting to limit my use of "I'm a TS IS Pre Op" to just in the TS circles where it is a little important so other TS people can share relevant information with me. To the rest of the people I deal with at school, college, shops, business, government, I'm just a woman. Unless I can use that TS label for some advantage ;)

And I don't talk about non stop TS thing with everyone in my life. Not even my TS friends! Far too many other things to talk about! OK sure well pass on something of interest, but it doesn't dominate the conversation time.

here's a tidbit from one....she said something like ..."i feel like i was on a long train ride, <snip>"

Pretty terrible analogy. Well from my perspective it is. You don't 'get off at a stop' and suddenly you are a woman.

If train trips changed peoples lives so irreversibly dramatically then every time someone went to work or arrived home they'd be a different person!

does that sound like what you want?...i myself can't wait to get off on my stop....it certainly didnt deter me from my course...of course, i can't get off the train if i wanted!!!!!!

But really you aren't on a train. The journey is a life journey. It's not a 'leg' of a journey that has a start and end. Your journey started when you were born and will go through many transition till the day you die.

Transition itself in the narrow view of a TS is only one leg of a major project. Once you get off that 'train' after SRS, you have Mount Everast to climb. There is no train taking you up there.

for me it was the pile up of life experience that finally broke my male spirit, which for me, was just a mirage....being a guy is great...IF YOU"RE A GUY!!!!!!!!!!! over time, everything about my male life weighed on my more and more and as melissa pointed out....its not Bull@)#T, its hard hard stuff, it was totally devasting to me to have all of my inner defenses fall apart ...inner defenses built around shame, guilt, and dare i say male obligation (guys just don't do this!!!) these are powerful emotions and not easily dealt with.....

Wow, mid life crisis! Traumatic Event! Intense period of life and some major change occurs.

I read all of those in some people who try and tell me they are TS! What's interesting is that only 20% of people who front up and follow the 2 year RLT, Therapy, Approval for Surgery, Save the bucks - actually HAVE Surgery. The other 80% realise at the last minute, that they have been kidding themselves. (The 80/20 is quoted as coming from CHX in London)

Guy Just Don't Do This?

What is it guy's don't do?

Dress as Woman?

Got out on the town dresses as woman?

Have sex with men?

Um, that would be CDs and TVs.

The only thing guys don't do is have sex without a penis!

BTW I was referring generally above, not having a dig at you Michelle! Only because your next paragraph says something different.

so i totally broke down and i know lots of you have as well, and as i come up out of it, i'm still very lonely and emotional and the ups and downs are many....but i keep going!!! for MY OWN reasons....i'm DOING MY THING, and you can define me any way you want...i know genetically i was born a man, but my brain will not allow me to function as a guy...

Well I can relate to that. Mine never did. I had to study men and how they acted and mimic that. When people said "Men don't act like that" I'd adapt. When people say "Men are always wanting sex" I just always wanted sex. I just drew a line at drugs, getting drunk and group masturbation.

every time something happens to slow down my seemingly endless transition (i only started hrt in july heh), makes me miserable and brings back all that gender dysphoria...

The only things slowing you down are you. No one else.

The Gender Dysphoria will haunt you till you accept you are not Dyshphoric any more. Hormones and SRS aren't really going to do that for you.

If Hormones 'treated' Dyphoria then the 'Take a Pill' solution is found.

I don't have Gender Dysphoria in my own mind because I accepted I'm a woman. I am a woman socially. I am a woman in my home. Hormones didn't make that happen for me. My decisions to release the act of what I was told to be, and to be myself, did it for me.

Hormones are correcting by body hormone dominance, and fixing a little, the damage done by my hormone therapy as a child.

SRS won't fix me. In my case it will repair the surgery I was given as a child. In other cases it brings the body into alignment with the brain.

Remember too, the Brain has for many year 'trained' to operate the male genitals. After SRS your brain re-trains.

If your brain has been working over time to 'operate machinery it was not designed to operate' imagine the relief on the brain that now all the right things are in place!

pruella

02-06-2009, 12:10 PM

I need to wear womens clothes in order to feel right.I love pantyhose and wear then everyday and most transexuals are not like this but I have read about gg's who love pantyhose just as much as I do,

It's called a Fetish. It's not a symptom of being TS.

Men use to wear tights for centuries till about 200 years ago. Does that mean all the men of Royalty, Knights and so on were all TS? Course not.

In modern days, pantyhose is a fetish. Trust me, you would not have had the joy of the fetish 200 year ago when pantyhose were rough and scratchy!

If I was born a girl I truely believe I'D wear pantyhose just as much as I do now! There are many gg's who love fashion and dress up alot!Not all gg's wear nothing but jeans and tshirt.

My wife doesn't wear pantyhose. I only wear tights and pantyhose during winter to insulate my legs from the cold. My legs are terribly long and heating them is important.

During summer, I rarely wear anything on my legs.

I like looking pretty, and looking attractive. I can't do that in men clothing. Nothing EVER fit me, I had to buy Teenage Boy pants in extra long lengths because my frame was 2 inches too mall for the 'mens' section. Men's shirts are jut square cut and are totally unflattering.

Now I have tailored blouses that fit my body, skirts and dresses that make me feel confident and assertive.

I could never do that in menswear! Even now.

jacindie

02-06-2009, 03:02 PM

fetish (plural fetishes)

1. Something nonsexual, such as an object or a part of the body which arouses sexual desire or is necessary for one to reach full sexual satisfaction

If this is what you are implying your'e totally wrong,I wear pantyhose because I love the way they look and feel.When I say feel I'm referring to my tuck,its is perfect,my testicles stay up inside me and I'm flat in front.I don't see my male body anymore! not sexual at all! Assuming
it must be because of sexual reasons is not fair!

I've gotten so used to wearing them I feel wrong without them, I don't want to feel or see my male parts hanging there between my legs.

As for fashion I like how they look, its personal taste ,taste I don't share with your wife !

until you know me don't quote me!

Jacindie

Roberta Llyan

02-06-2009, 04:05 PM

"How do you know if you are transgendered or just CD?"

How do you KNOW you are breathing?
How do you KNOW if you are talking?
How do you KNOW if you are eating?
How do you KNOW if you are walking?
How do you KNOW if you are doing whatever it is that you are doing?

A person who is TRANS-GENDER KNOWS. And the others know also that they are NOT a Trans-gender. There is no test questions to answer to KNOW. You KNOW it in your heart and mind and soul. For that is WHAT a trans-gender is: HEART and MIND and SOUL.

Everything and anything else is just a male in woman's clothing probably seeking some kind of "thrill." And most likely "getting off" on the idea of doing it secretly which adds to the stimulation/eroticism. Trans-genders are not doing it to "get their rocks off." They are doing it because it comes from within.....deep within their soul.

And if you have to inquire from others, it is very doubtful, in my opinion, you are a Trans-gender!!!

pruella

02-07-2009, 06:11 AM

If this is what you are implying your'e totally wrong,I wear pantyhose because I love the way they look and feel.When I say feel I'm referring to my tuck,its is perfect,my testicles stay up inside me and I'm flat in front.I don't see my male body anymore! not sexual at all! Assuming
it must be because of sexual reasons is not fair!

Interesting. And fair point. I jut find pantyhose cause yeast infections and all kind of issue. And YES you can get a yeast infection around the anus too. It's not as uncommon as you might think.

I, obviously, tuck too. But I don't rely on Pantyhose to hold me in place. Goodness Pantyhose just are not designed to do that! They slip and slide and have lot of stretch in them.

Using a Gaff is the perfect solution. Some use the 'smaller' nicker under a fitting pair, but that doesn't always stay put either. I'm actually designing something presently that I think will be far better, and cheaper.

I've gotten so used to wearing them I feel wrong without them, I don't want to feel or see my male parts hanging there between my legs.

Again fair enough. But Pantyhose aren't the best or healthiest solution. Mot women don't wear pantyhose every day.

Besides the fact that most pantyhose don't last more than a few days wear!

As for fashion I like how they look, its personal taste ,taste I don't share with your wife !

Kinda surprised really. Your legs from your avi pic look pretty damn good in shape! Natural skin is always more attractive!

But yes, it is personal taste. But you can see how it could be perceived as a fetish - because often, in the TG environment, it is. It's also a sexual fetish specifically for men.

Don't consider I'm saying that pantyhose on the whole are fetish, that' not the case. It's just unusual in some niche environments, that it is not a fetish.

pruella

02-07-2009, 06:22 AM

Everything and anything else is just a male in woman's clothing probably seeking some kind of "thrill." And most likely "getting off" on the idea of doing it secretly which adds to the stimulation/eroticism. Trans-genders are not doing it to "get their rocks off."

Damn. You mean wearing my expensive tailored suit and nice heels, with my hair and makeup given the most attention for a genuine business meeting is just a thrill?

*grumbles* Better go find some nylons and lace panties then.

Roberta Llyan

02-08-2009, 06:10 PM

Damn. You mean wearing my expensive tailored suit and nice heels, with my hair and makeup given the most attention for a genuine business meeting is just a thrill?

*grumbles* Better go find some nylons and lace panties then.

You're pulling what I said out of context. Go back and read the entire post. I was talking about it being heart, mind, and soul. And that is what it is. If you are not trans-gender in that manner then you are not TG but just a man in women's clothing.

Nicki B

02-08-2009, 07:27 PM

To me, someone who cross-dresses fits under the umbrella term 'transgender'..

And can we PLEASE not use the word 'just' so much - it's unnecessarily judgemental. Divisions between ourselves help none of us. :sad:

pruella

02-09-2009, 06:29 AM

You're pulling what I said out of context.

I know I know! I was poking ribs!

Although it was a thrill wearing my nice suit for the first time! When I asked at the presentation what their first impression was when I walked through the door, I got a lot of compliments, including CONFIDENT.

Wooot :)

Melora

02-09-2009, 06:35 AM

I dont even know if my answer will get through to You after all of the previous answers, before me..
No I have not read them ALL either.. I do not need to...
The answer is simple..
A TG = Is Any person who dresses as the other.. = Umbrella term
Crossdresser = Is Any person who dresses as the other = Umbrella term
Transvestite = Onr who showes in Puplic that S/HE is a TG/CD
Transexuale= One who Changes ones sex..
Also
DragQueen = One who CDs for ARE and Entertainment.
Katie

pruella

02-09-2009, 06:39 AM

To me, someone who cross-dresses fits under the umbrella term 'transgender'..

Very much so, especially when you review the entomology!

Goes for the Girls who dress as men too!

And can we PLEASE not use the word 'just' so much - it's unnecessarily judgemental.

B,b,but I've got, hmm maybe that's had, some great friends who are 'just men in womens clothes' and proud of it!

I say 'had' cause their wives or girlfriends or worse, daughters, are vicious evil antisocial creatures who take these nice expressive people on shopping trips and outings, leave us 'friends' wondering if they have been kidnapped!

I am DREADING my daughters getting old enough to DEMAND shopping trips. They already drag me around and insist I try things on all the time! Even my wife can be damn annoying at times!

No one ever did that before I started transition. ;)

jillleanne

02-09-2009, 07:44 AM

I'm a gender enhanced person. So are you. There, you have your label. Now get dressed and go shopping.

Nicki B

02-09-2009, 12:30 PM

B,b,but I've got, hmm maybe that's had, some great friends who are 'just men in womens clothes' and proud of it!

If they want to use the term about themselves, fine - the problem always comes when labels are applied to others and when a 'hierarchy' is implied.

That has always caused unnecessary hurt and disharmony in this community?

pruella

02-10-2009, 03:04 AM

If they want to use the term about themselves, fine - the problem always comes when labels are applied to others and when a 'hierarchy' is implied.

But it IS a valid description and IT IS acceptable when used in correct context. 'Cross Dressing' IS only a person of one gender who expresses an appearance of the other gender, usually going to a LOT of effort to do so, with a lot of pride behind the process.

Woman in Menswear is just as common, but just not so noticed.

I just truly wish all the 'private' CDs would get out into the street and make that end of the spectrum as visible and celebrated as possible.

My daughter was watching a show on TV yesterday about the Roman era. The Men were all in DRESSES - so she said!

But that aside, we came back to the different between a CD and a TS.

My personal expression is well stated about about CD.

A TS has physiological issues to deal with, clothes do NOT make a TS, they merely ease a symptom of social indoctrination.

I've also said many times before the border between a 'high level CD' and a 'low level TS' is so crossed that a person on that intersection may be far more confused and distressed than a CD or a TS a few inches away on their own scale.

I can't imagine what it's like being on that intersect. I think many TS's pass through that intersect as they evolve, but getting stuck on it - well here there is the question of this topic.

We can express the 'outer extremes' and identify that there is a scale and an intersection, but I suspect the OP was more concerned about their position STUCK in the intersection and looking for a direction - Four Roads - go back, turn left, turn right or go straight ahead.

More discussion is needed to guide people who hit that cross road. I just don't know what I can add because my experience of such is extremely limited and I feel most people want to fall into a bucket, rather than be stuck in the middle.

Maybe if we focus on making that intersection a happy place to be, that doesn't require confusion or 'decision' making to 'validate' oneself and their place, the issue of "Am I a TS or a CD" will go away of it's own, allowing those who are at the further ends of the spectrum ro travel as they go.

That has always caused unnecessary hurt and disharmony in this community?

Read your posting to me elsewhere and agree totally on the inventing of something to avoid prejudice. That is what I have and continue to support.

It hurts those who are vulnerable a lot less when EVERYONE speaks the same language.

I think this topic in it's own is a variant on that issue.

sandra-leigh

02-10-2009, 12:56 PM

I've also said many times before the border between a 'high level CD' and a 'low level TS' is so crossed that a person on that intersection may be far more confused and distressed than a CD or a TS a few inches away on their own scale. [...]

We can express the 'outer extremes' and identify that there is a scale and an intersection, but I suspect the OP was more concerned about their position STUCK in the intersection and looking for a direction - Four Roads - go back, turn left, turn right or go straight ahead.

Thanks, Pruella, somehow I feel that what you wrote is getting closer to what I (the original poster) am talking about.

However, some of the other recent postings by other posters have assumed that "transgender" means only "CD or TS".
And what you wrote has implicit in it that "Crossdressing is over here, and TS is over there, and you might be moving between the two, but there is only CD City and TS City and the Road" -- which at least adds in "the road" into the possibilities.

When I posted originally and in my follow-ups, I tried to be careful to distinguish between "transgender" (yes, an umbrella term) and "transsexual", as I am considering the possibility that I am one of the several forms of "transgender" who are not "transsexual". But for whatever reason, we really don't hear much about those other forms of transgender on this forum. Just look at how many of the New Member Introductions say that growing up they used to think that they were the only ones who ever did those things, and then reflect on how I must feel to come to this, one of the largest transgender forums in the world, and find even most of the people here only know of CD and TS, and I'm having to break my own trails off into Here Be Monsters territory by myself. :sad:

I don't know what I am. Maybe it would be easier if I just adopted "gender enhanced person" and left it at that. But reflect back to my original question of "What do I tell my mother?" -- "gender enhanced person" isn't very informative. At this point in my life, telling my mother that I was a "gender confused person" would probably be more accurate. :straightface:

I don't feel like I am "transsexual": I've never had that sense that I was "born in the wrong body", I don't yearn for my lost girlhood, dolls are just "things" to me (I did go through the phase of little plastic Cowboys and Indians, though, and on the balance my sympathies were with the Indians.) Yes, I did sometimes play with the girls at recess, but that wasn't because I felt like I was one of them: it had more to do with the guys deciding that I wasn't one of the "guy crowd". (I don't remember any of them who actually disliked me, but if you are bright and generally non-athletic and not "cool" and not the class clown... well, at that age, being ignored is social torment enough.)

I don't feel that I am "two-spirited", at least not in the meaning of having substantially distinct male and female personalities and switching between the two of them.

I might perhaps be technically "androgynous", but I am socialized to that implying more absence of distinguishing male or female characteristics, rather than possessing both, with "hermaphodite" implying the possession of both male and female characteristics (but "hermaphodite" is perhaps too strong for my situation.)

But returning more directly to the original question: here in the forum, we have relatively good ideas of what "crossdresser" is, and of what "transsexual" is, but all those other possibilities are largely Terra Incognita. If one does not feel that one is Transsexual (in the sense of "really" being a member of "the other" sex), then how does one know if one's feelings are within the "normal range" of "crossdressers" or if one is instead within one of the other less-known categories?

In comparing myself to others in my social club, and seeing my willingness to "gender-bend", to be openly "a guy in a skirt" or similar, my tentative conclusion is that I am probably not within the typical range of crossdressing. But on the other hand, I'm not always clear on where cross-dressing ends and where TS begins: for example, if I were to become "24/7" non-op non-hormone "live as a woman", would that be definitely TS or would that be within the "typical range of crossdressing" or would that be a different category.... ?

Addendum:

I noticed that this topic is being followed by quite a number of readers, far more than I would have expected. If other people are finding themselves struggling with similar issues but do not feel comfortable posting about it, I welcome PMs. In particular, I'd be interesting in hearing from people who self-identify as something other than the CD or TS, even if you (like me) don't know what quite what it is that you do self-identify as.

Also, I found an earlier thread in this sub-forum on a closely related topic,
"How do you know?" (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82481) started in May 2008 by Andre85. I haven't had time to read through all if it quite yet.

Karen564

02-10-2009, 02:44 PM

I also don't see anything to suggest you're transsexual, but only you can answer that question. The clothes mean nothing to us, it's all about feelings, and we don't want anything to do with the wrong gender we got stuck with.

Karen Starlene :star:

Personally, I agree with Karen on this, except I do like the clothes too and everything else that goes hand & hand with Womanhood.

So from what I can tell based on what you originally posted, your a CD'r that has a breast fetish.. and maybe something more than that, but I'm not aware of any specific name you would call it, but I can't really see the point in it even if there was, what good would that do really.
But I'm sure if you saw a psychiatrist, they could be more specific on what to call it after getting into your head to find out why you feel the way you do.

Karen

Kelli Michelle

02-10-2009, 03:01 PM

Labels help people identify themselves or others, rather than go into an in-depth discussion of what they are about. But one has to be careful of them because so much depends on the other persons perception of what the label means to them.

Telling one's mom, though, needs to be thought out, of course. It certainly will take longer to explain to her than it would to most people on this site. Labels may not be appropriate. She may see them all in the same light, which may be bad. If it was me. I would explain what you do, how you feel, and that because there are many labels and perceptions, you felt it appropriate to describe rather than label what it is you do. I would also re-iterate key points that are important to you or may be to her. If she wants a label at some point, just do the best you can do (lots of food for thought in these posts) and be as honest as you can.

sandra-leigh

02-10-2009, 03:32 PM

Telling one's mom, though, needs to be thought out, of course. It certainly will take longer to explain to her than it would to most people on this site. Labels may not be appropriate. She may see them all in the same light, which may be bad. If it was me. I would explain what you do, how you feel, and that because there are many labels and perceptions, you felt it appropriate to describe rather than label what it is you do.

Good points.

It would, I think, help if somehow I had a better idea of where my personal boundaries are, of what "is" or "is not" me, of what I would or would not do, gender-wise or sexually. Various things I have thought of in passing, I have more or less come to the conclusion that, "Well, that isn't something I'm particularly interested in, but if the circumstances actually came up, with the right people around me, I might be willing to give it a try". I suppose it's not much of an "identity"... "Good old wishy-washy Charlie Brown".

I'm not saying the above with the expectation that "If I could just find the right label, I would know who I am!!": just another indication of how hard it can be to figure out what one's gender is. Maybe it isn't any one thing in particular.

Just what I need... to found a new school, Gender Existentialism :heehee:

Nicki B

02-10-2009, 05:59 PM

But it IS a valid description and IT IS acceptable when used in correct context. 'Cross Dressing' IS only a person of one gender who expresses an appearance of the other gender, usually going to a LOT of effort to do so, with a lot of pride behind the process.

My particular problem was with the use of the word 'just' - it implies lesser, as if those who identify as CD, or even 'men in frocks' don't also suffer as a result?

But 'Cross Dressing' simply describes a behaviour - I think it's an erroneous assumption to believe that it is never linked to a degree of gender dysphoria?

IME, GD comes in different levels (and forms, which may or may not be mixed together). There is no simple binary, of CD or TS - there is a spectrum of feelings and behaviours?

pruella

02-10-2009, 09:07 PM

Thanks, Pruella, somehow I feel that what you wrote is getting closer to what I (the original poster) am talking about.

Welcome :)

but I am socialized to that implying more absence of distinguishing male or female characteristics, rather than possessing both, with "hermaphodite" implying the possession of both male and female characteristics (but "hermaphodite" is perhaps too strong for my situation.)

Not that simple. 'Hermaphrodite' isn't just characteristics, it's physiological not psychological. Intersexed is a better term and Intersexed XX/XY would be possibly the most accurate. (That's me BTW!) It's not a lot of fun either.

Just on the 'Transgender' term, I think people use it to either avoid falling into a box, between boxes or who are in denial of their true box, whilst trying to adopt another but avoiding being flamed for faking what they are not!

<snip> If one does not feel that one is Transsexual (in the sense of "really" being a member of "the other" sex), then how does one know if one's feelings are within the "normal range" of "crossdressers" or if one is instead within one of the other less-known categories?

Well that leaves you with:

Androgynous
Transvestite (Sexual fetish)
Intersexed
Queer
Genderbender

You don't sound like a genderbender, but then again maybe you are, in which case get out there and bend! At least the next TS to follow you will have an easier time :)

Intersexed you either know, don't know or need to be tested. Most IS people never know.

Andro - maybe. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel neither Male or Female, or even feel you enjoy both aspects, then do just that - enjoy both.

Some Ando people I know go to work as a Man, live at home as a Woman and split the genders between two or more social circles. Too complicated for me :)

In comparing myself to others in my social club, and seeing my willingness to "gender-bend", to be openly "a guy in a skirt" or similar,

Scottish Men wear skirts all the time! [*ducks*]

Romans and Gladiators wore them too. So did Kings and Knights :)

my tentative conclusion is that I am probably not within the typical range of crossdressing.

Genderbenders are *rolls eyes* Crossdressers with attitude :)

Kinda like Punk or Goth is to normal people. It's all clothes at the end of the day :)

But on the other hand, I'm not always clear on where cross-dressing ends and where TS begins: for example, if I were to become "24/7" non-op non-hormone "live as a woman", would that be definitely TS or would that be within the "typical range of crossdressing" or would that be a different category.... ?

I think you example would put you on the border of CD/TS and either have people very confused, or you could be confused.

Of course, you might not be confused and sit on that overlap of the circles of the CD and the TS group.

I think your only confusion is trying to find a term to describe you that is 'accepted' and 'defined' socially.

This is something you probably need to decide more than us define for you. Cross Dresser is simplest :) At least it doesn't carry the 'sex' element.

I noticed that this topic is being followed by quite a number of readers, <snip> In particular, I'd be interesting in hearing from people who self-identify as something other than the CD or TS, even if you (like me) don't know what quite what it is that you do self-identify as.

I think anyone feeling like that should just press 'Reply' and rattle on for at least 250 words!

At least then we might find some foundation, or even 'worse' we might coin a new term!

No one seems to 'bite' in this segment of the site (thank god) and I keep saying Crossdressers are nice people who distance themselves from the very confusing 'TV' term that could mean a range of things - it seems - depending on where you are!

pruella

02-10-2009, 09:23 PM

My particular problem was with the use of the word 'just' - it implies lesser, as if those who identify as CD, or even 'men in frocks' don't also suffer as a result?

I thought it was taken for granted that a Crossdresser coming out is no more or less difficult than a TS coming out!

CDs in my view are no more or less than a TS, just entirely different. I think most TS would agree "if only I could just wear Opposite Gender clothes and feel relaxed or less fatigued" but I'm afraid as Karen has said, and I've said - clothes do not make the TS :) Clothes usually make the CD.

That doesn't make either any more or less.

But 'Cross Dressing' simply describes a behaviour - I think it's an erroneous assumption to believe that it is never linked to a degree of gender dysphoria?

Gender Dusphoria is such a weird term. Crossdressing is a psychological need, maybe sometimes a want. Psychology is behavior, but don't let that mean that 'therapy' will cure someone. Crossdressing isn't something that needs to be cured. Most CDs I know, it's a hobby, or a past time, or just an expression of mood and feeling.

I've also said some go to a lot of effort too, sometimes more than a TS!

IME, GD comes in different levels (and forms, which may or may not be mixed together). There is no simple binary, of CD or TS - there is a spectrum of feelings and behaviours?

TS isn't so much behavior. CD I think would be both feeling and behavior. CDers might be as simple as 'around the house' like anyone wears PJs all day. Others might like the lime light of being Famous in the Public Eye.

Unlike a TS. A TS can't be 'part time' it's and all or none situation. Someone could be Androgynous TS, whishing to change genital structure, but still retain the expression of both genders. Just like an IS :)

Kaitlyn Michele

02-11-2009, 12:22 AM

But it's not a mental illness. !
I never said it was...we're talking about the same thing...its in the DSM as a disorder...we'll see what happens next DSM

It is important to note though, that many TS people can have, and it is typical, to have one or more mental illness conditions. Depression is a mental illness. Treating a TS for depression symptoms will not treat the Gender Dysphoria. If the GID isn't treated, then the depression remains, even if you take 10,000 megagram of Anti Depressants each day. !
Right...great point.
The total failure of antidepressants for me was one of my steps to realizing who and what i was. i never heard of gender dysphoria, or GID...i just knew that all day every day all i could think about was how much i hated being a guy....and i still punish myself for not figuring it out

many girls say they "know" or "knew" they were a woman since they were very young. this is one way to experience trannsexualism...they didnt try to fit in or cope...they accepted it right away or very early on, i think that's great

for me, i experienced it differently, i totally kept it to myself, i totally denied that i was a woman, , it evolved, I knew i wanted to be a woman, and constantly wished i was a woman... ...i developed zero self worth and i accepted my fate (why shouldnt i? i'm worthless i thought)
but i wanted to fit in sooooo badly, i wanted to make lots of money to prove i really was a man. i was working 80 hr weeks, going out and hanging with the guys all night....ugh

The difference between being TS and CD is simple. One is what you want to do - dress - and you will talk about dressing. One is what you are - the clothes are just a social convenience.

Firstly you don't 'dress' and wonder if you are TS. You can wear anything you like, but you will still be TS. !

maybe you are technically correct..but i dont think its really simple at all....i crossdressed to calm my anxiety...i thought this was as good as it gets!! was i a crossdresser then and a ts now??? would you say that "feeling like a crossdresser" precludes being a woman (a ts woman) that's how this thread got started...many repressed ts folks start out cd'ing...like me...so if i seem defensive...sorry :o i know i did it to myself.

here's a tidbit from one....she said something like ..."i feel like i was on a long train ride, <snip>"
Pretty terrible analogy. Well from my perspective it is. You don't 'get off at a stop' and suddenly you are a woman. !
actually i still think its a good analogy, its not a big deal...but my paraphrase was unfair to her.....she was not saying she "became a woman" at the end, although my comment made it seem like she did...

she was talking about the legal and physical transition itself, not the mental part...she thought the transition phase consumed her and she lost sight of important things...but she was also very happy she did it....

by the way, i read a book by annie dillard called "for the time being"...very cool book about life as a journey that on one level is pretty depressing, but i think in the end i found it very uplifting. i think it would be interesting to you based on some of your posts.

What is a Post Op Woman?

I know what a Post Op M2F Transsexual is - she is a woman. !

agreed. what's the question? it's just shorthand, cmon, you knew what i meant...jeepers ....i'm getting picked apart!!! :sad:

Wow, mid life crisis! Traumatic Event! Intense period of life and some major change occurs.

I read all of those in some people who try and tell me they are TS! What's interesting is that only 20% of people who front up and follow the 2 year RLT, Therapy, Approval for Surgery, Save the bucks - actually HAVE Surgery. The other 80% realise at the last minute, that they have been kidding themselves. (The 80/20 is quoted as coming from CHX in London) !

...the dawning on me that my constant desire to be a woman was around since i was a little kid, it manifested in lots of dressing, but as i realized it was something different than the clothes, that i was feeling MORE out of place as a man than ever, that i couldnt seem to focus on anything else...this is when i started to open up to the fact that i really did feel i was a woman ....THIS WAS the traumatic event...it felt like a torrent coming out of me....it was the OMG moment and i started thinking of my kids and my job and everything about my life....there was no other traumatic event, things were going great...i was really doing a good job keeping this all under the radar....until i wasnt.

wow that 80/20 stat is amazing....i'm in a pretty large therapy group and i've seen some ts folk go back and forth... but not 80/20...and mostly they are doing it for financial or "family " issues though. In the year and a half i've been in my group 2 girls have gone back to "guy mode" and one of those came back to herself....knowing them i am certain they are both women in their own minds..one of my best friends had ffs years ago and then freaked out over her kids, and untransitioned for a couple months...she restarted her transition though and is just doing great and is a great girlfriend to me..

Guy Just Don't Do This?[/B]
What is it guy's don't do?
Dress as Woman? ..........
The only thing guys don't do is have sex without a penis! !
that was just my inner dialogue at the time...thats how i thought of it...i was saying guys dont do this.......and so i felt ashamed and guilty when i thought of being a woman...i didnt distinguish between CD/TV/TS at time but i still felt guilty and ashamed....

and i cant wait to have sex without a penis !!!

by the way, u mentioned what you did to be one of the guys
I did all that drinking and drugs you missed out on...but i missed out on the group masturbation.....:D
and frankly i'm still very sad and bitter about some of the things i went through as i repressed myself.

The only things slowing you down are you. No one else.
The Gender Dysphoria will haunt you till you accept you are not Dyshphoric any more. Hormones and SRS aren't really going to do that for you. !
i know. i know, i know....i'm an obsessive, anxious, worrier, with no self esteem what can i say?

over the last year, i've accepted more and more "myself"....but this has been a process ....i feel like i still have work to do in accepting myself..i had myself faked out pretty good...and i only started hrt in july, so what i'm finding is i'm having days like today where i feel good and i'm feeling like me...i feel confident and alive/....and moving forward. for example next week i get to do another week of electrolysis!! my 2nd clearing yay!!!! getting the physical part moving is very helpful to me on the mental part of my transition.

other days, i get to overthinking everything, i feel overwhelmed and question myself or start worrying about things out of my control (like that i'm 6'2 -and will be a freak) and as you said, dysphoria haunts me and other stuff gets in my head and i forget that i am starting out on what is my true meaning in this world...i'm afraid of the consequences of changing my outside gender, i am my own worst enemy..there!! i admitted it!!:eek:

and for the record...i feel that not knowing if you are cd or ts or something in between is perfectly reasonable...just like "knowing" it is, i've said it before, this is not easy stuff and we were raised in different cultures and circumstances that impacted how we coped with things...and that goes for every type of "gender blessed" person out there..we should all stick together and enjoy our diverse and special community

thnx as always for the comments pruella

michele

Krystyna_Marie

02-11-2009, 01:08 AM

Y'all have given me so much to think about!!! What a great discussion. Thanks for posting this, I'm in self-discovery mode myself right now, and I'm going to be studying this thread for a while.

Kisses!

KM

gagirl1

02-11-2009, 02:55 AM

i've been avoiding this thread b/c i was worried i might discover i'm not transgender (life is full of doubts), but now that i am sure of myself, and comfortable with saying i long to be a woman, i want to offer a simple piece of information about being trans vs. crossdressing:

being transgender has nothing to do with the clothes you wear.

through and through, being trans is about wanting to be a woman or man, not on a temporary basis while dressed as whichever sex. i went through most of your list of criteria, and found a common thread: clothes/appearance. i feel the breast question mostly mirrors your want to fill out a bra, and feel comfortable while in female form, but it sounds to me like you want to be able to go back to your male side. transgender people rarely want to go back (mostly never, except for monetary reasons). i'd say to anyone questioning his or her gender, if you start to get dysphoric (you'll know when) on a regular basis, and the clothes really don't make the difference, then you might have some more exploring to do.

these thoughts are quite common when gender bending. it's a wonderful discovery of oneself (trans or cd), but also painful and confusing.

to give some perspective on where i stand, i hate it when people ask "how often do you dress," inferring i'm only female by the clothes i wear. i'm female 24 hours of every day, but don't feel the need to prove that all day. this is where i think i differ from many crossdressers. i'm not changing my clothes, i'm changing my body, and that's the difference.

oh, and on a side note, you don't have to put yourself into any gender binary. many genderqueer people express themselves as all genders (not just the 2, mind you), and that is who they are: not male, not female, but just happy with themselves. might be something worth looking into.

oh, one more thing: "born in the wrong body," and "trapped in a ______'s body" are the worst descriptions of being trans i can think of. it's an extreme oversimplification, perpetuated by the media. i have not met one trans person who feels those two quotes describe them implicitly. just doesn't cover everything.

sandra-leigh

02-11-2009, 04:02 AM

You don't sound like a genderbender, but then again maybe you are, in which case get out there and bend! At least the next TS to follow you will have an easier time :) [...]

Genderbenders are *rolls eyes* Crossdressers with attitude :)

Kinda like Punk or Goth is to normal people. It's all clothes at the end of the day :)

I suspect that what you refer to as "genderbender" is perhaps the term I know alternatively as "genderqueer" or (in its more militant form) "genderf*ck". A couple of my acquaintances (met a few times, good friends of several of the club members) do "tough drag" -- really crazy clothes, drag shows in beards (even if it requires pasting on glitter to imitate beards if they don't happen to have one at the time.) Our fellow forum member Buffalo Bill deliberately goes out in skirt and big beard and has no interest in getting rid of the beard: now that's a real challenge to traditional culture. I don't think he does it to shock, though, and I admire that he is "being himself".... so perhaps that technically places him as "genderqueer" but not as "genderf*ck" (which implies more using gender to make a scene.)

I do "gender-bend", at least in the meaning that would be used around where I live -- that is, I do go out in mixed gender mode, such as with my male face and hair (probably with little or no makeup), but wearing a skirt, or wearing a dress... and quite likely wearing forms (C or DD or even G -- while still facially a guy.) Lots of people have seen me that way -- e.g., less than a week ago, I went like that to the "premiere" shopping mall in the city towards late afternoon (fair number of people), and didn't care who noticed that the person wearing the long gray wool skirt was {apparently} male.

A year ago, I took a couple of flights between some of Canada's busiest airports -- and I traveled in long skirts, forms and blouses... on the way back, the blouse was one with "pockets" at the bust, so it was obvious that I (a male) had a "bust". The airlines and safety authority had no trouble with me being like that, and most of the people in the airports didn't pay attention, not even when I was in the male washroom. I got some smiles, and I didn't get any frowns, and some people did small courtesies for me that wouldn't normally be done for males. I wasn't attempting to "fool" anyone, and I got treated with kindness.

I often get treated with kindness when I go out as a guy with something obviously feminine, even when the most obvious "tell" is just my bra showing through my shirt (yeah, including sometimes deliberately on my part, like wearing a white bra under a thin near-white blouse so that the shape will be obvious.)

So in the sense of "genderbender" as someone who deliberately mixes male and female signals, especially female clothes without disguising my head as female, then Yup, I do that. Wearing a simple skirt to the grocery store or off on errand or to the farmer's market feels natural to me. I have an easier time with more or less solid colours: Fancier skirts, more ornate, more flowery, or puffy or multi-layered, or more eye-catching... those are a lot harder for me to wear as a guy (but I would wear my plain black pencil skirt as a guy.) There is a mental filter somewhere in me, that something like a jeans skirt is just a skirt, that a guy like me can wear one and not mean anything by it (other than that he is willing to challenge convention a little), but that some skirt designs are decidedly "female" skirt designs, things that I could wear if I am completely Dressed, but not when I am "a guy". Sometimes I challenge myself by wearing something a bit outside my comfort range (a tactic that worked wonderfully for me for tights under my work or public clothes, that got me well past the idea that all I could wear was plain black or plain brown "which could be mistaken for socks")

If I am not wearing a tight sweater, wearing my DD
forms "as a guy" doesn't make me feel out of place... if anyone notices them, that's fine with me because it feels like the augmented shape is pretty much the shape that I should have, and that what people see there is more the "real me" than if I don't have the forms. When I'm out in public (not at work), even apparently dressed as a guy, a DD to G bust on me is somehow a truth rather than a lie or a fakery... that shape is part of me -- maybe not something I "flaunt" as a guy, but something like, "Heck, let 'em notice, it's just me and they might as well get used to it."

Thus, I differ from a lot of cross-dressers in that I do not train to seem to be as much of a woman as can be acted: having someone know that I am (more or less) a male is not a problem to me, at least not when I am in that mood -- though I'm sure not about to lose sleep over the possibility that I might have somehow convinced someone that the person they saw was female. I don't mind being thought to be female :o -- but at the same time, I am not ashamed that someone might know full well that I am (apparently) male and see me in female clothes with an (apparent) bust. Darn right that "he" wears womens' clothes.

And I've met so many people that think I look good in women's clothes, and whom look forward to seeing what I'll wear next. How could I disappoint my fans? :devil:

Kelsy

02-11-2009, 04:09 AM

the smartest tg folks i know call it a journey....just remember its your journey and try to be honest with yourself and it should work out for the best

I just finished Jennifer Boylan's two books inwhich she describes her journey.
There is absolutely no question that Jennifer was transexual but she didn't know that early on! She crossdressed for years and constantly tied to discover who or what she was. She even desired for the feeling to go away so she could be a "normal' man.

Putting a test to wether you are or are not poses the danger of setting up an elite groups. That is why I prefer the all encompassing term Trangendered because we are all in this together. It is a course of discovery and we are all somewhere along that path

Kelsy

pruella

02-11-2009, 05:15 AM

I PM'd you on the first two blocks - felt it didn't need repeating, but for the sake of others "Me Too"

But then you asked me a question! I was trying to avoid comment!

<snip> i crossdressed to calm my anxiety...i thought this was as good as it gets!! was i a crossdresser then and a ts now??? would you say that "feeling like a crossdresser" precludes being a woman (a ts woman) that's how this thread got started...many repressed ts folks start out cd'ing...like me...

Yes and No. What a complex paragraph. Here goes:

You evolved. It's really that simple. Just like learning math or reading, you start with simple individual elements, they are satisfying and you get results, so you want to discover more. (Well some people do!)

It's like cooking. You make a plain cake, the you think if I add Banana, I can have Banana Cake, then you you try Banana and Chocolate, then add more liquids to make self saucing.

It's evolution. You have to have a starting point. Some start at 4 years old and adults say "Awww how sweet, pretending" others avoid any acknowledgment because of the environment they are brought up in, but denial is repression and repressions always impresses eventually.

Depression is common, depressions comes as a symptom of repression. You change your focus from the repression to the depressions and worthlessness, and then you slash your wrists or hang yourself or shoot yourself or just in the frozen river.

You might be lucky, have space to unrepress, but really for what appears to be the majority it's either just as repressing and eventually explodes into a life of expression or transition.

Would I say Being a Crossdresser precludes being a Woman?

I asked the question in a seminar to people mostly not exposed to the TG spectrum on Monday "What is a Woman?"

The answers I got back were all pretty much "The ability to bear a child"

Ouch! Maybe time for a thread :)

agreed. what's the question? it's just shorthand, cmon, you knew what i meant...jeepers ....i'm getting picked apart!!! :sad:

Like a hen to the oven! Gravy anyone!

Ok I just gotta do this next bit!:

<snip> i was feeling MORE out of place as a man than ever, that i couldnt seem to focus on anything else...this is when i started to open up to the fact that i really did feel i was a woman

OK, so what does it feel like to be a woman? What base line comparison have you got that we can use? Have you been a woman before? How do you compare a man to a woman?

Interesting questions. Evidently it's not clothes and makeup. These have changed from gender to gender over the centuries. Men use to wear tunics over tights with knee high boots. Now women do. Go figure.

Maybe past lives have something to do with this process, and as we become more enlightened we become more aware of the memories and signals from our individual past lives?

wow that 80/20 stat is amazing....i'm in a pretty large therapy group and i've seen some ts folk go back and forth... <snip>

Yep, many stories to tell of all kinds of people. And the Melbourne Transsexual M2F that then become F2M and says the system ruined his life! HIS life! He blames the medical professionals for butchering HIS body. Hmmm.

i was saying guys dont do this.......and so i felt ashamed and guilty when i thought of being a woman...i didnt distinguish between CD/TV/TS at time but i still felt guilty and ashamed....

But how do you know guys don't?

Just look at the 'TV' segment. (Clarification: Guys who dress up for sexual arousal and deny being anything other that Straight.)

They are Macho Men who live life as a man, but hey. What can I say. I really don't want to get flamed again for lack of context.

CD's don't have the denial issue. They might at first, but like TS, it's evolution. It takes time to relearn and to accept yourself, just like anyone else has to accept you.

and i cant wait to have sex without a penis !!!

That almost sounds fetish! or Fantasy! I just can't wait to sort out the inner and outer conflicts I currently have. They are slowly working.

I guess my issue is, being Intersexed, had I not been modified at birth I might well have accepted both sexes and genders. But there is no basis upon which I can compare.

Maybe in my next life :)

by the way, u mentioned what you did to be one of the guys I did all that drinking and drugs you missed out on...but i missed out on the group masturbation.....:D
and frankly i'm still very sad and bitter about some of the things i went through as i repressed myself.

I don't think you should be sad or bitter with yourself. It's a self preservation mechanism, it's perfectly natural for a human to adapt to their environment or perish.

I adapted to my environment but as it changed, I was able to readapt. Now I'm evolving :)

i know. i know, i know....i'm an obsessive, anxious, worrier, with no self esteem what can i say?

The last one you can fix by boiling water :) (Steam get it!)

Obsessive, well, why not be? How can you not be? You like me spent most of our life so far Obsessing about meeting Social Perception. Obsessing so much it become a disorder in it's own right.

Hows THAT for an answer!

Anxious
Comes from fear. Fearing the unknown. The only things you can know are what you experience and what you think. You can KNOW what decision you are going to make and what actions you will carry out, but you can NOT know if that decision and action is going to end positively.

Usually well thought out decisions work positively :)

Obnoxious Oh wait, you didn't say that, you are still denying that part I see.

Worrying This again comes from fear. Not the fear of the unknown but the fear of self doubt about decisions and actions.

over the last year, i've accepted more and more "myself"....but this has been a process ....i feel like i still have work to do in accepting myself..i had myself faked out pretty good...

Yes, it is. First you have to reprogram all those habits and automatic pilot functions you have put in place over many years. They can't just be switched off in many cases.

OK I went socially from 'sad bloke' to 'happy woman' literally over night, but that's probably more to do with what Plan A was than Plan B.

Thank goodness I chose Plan B.

and i only started hrt in july, so what i'm finding is i'm having days like today where i feel good and i'm feeling like me...i feel confident and alive/....and moving forward.

Yup me too! We should exchange notes :) Hehehe:

Are mine bigger than yours! *giggle*

As I was getting into the showed my wife said "Wow your legs and bum are really looking so feminine now."

I was looking down and thinking "yeah if only ..."

for example next week i get to do another week of electrolysis!! my 2nd clearing yay!!!! getting the physical part moving is very helpful to me on the mental part of my transition.

I had Laser on Friday and was so swollen over the weekend it was quite distressing. I will have to discuss this with the clinic because I have never had such a bad reaction. I even have small flakes of skin falling off and still have tender spots.

Then again, it may well be perfect. It is finally starting to feel softer and less shadowy again. Even though my shadow was very very limited till mid Jan. I delayed by 4th treatment.

other days, i get to overthinking everything, i feel overwhelmed and question myself or start worrying about things out of my control

So does the Cross Dresser who wants to be out in public too. But ...

(like that i'm 6'2 -and will be a freak)

I'm 6 foot, always wear at least 4 inch heels. Mind you I've seen plenty of 6 foot and above women around the shopping centre. A few I look up to even in heels!

Oh I wish I could be them!

i'm afraid of the consequences of changing my outside gender, i am my own worst enemy..there!! i admitted it!!:eek:

And now you can deal with it! The only thing to fear, is fear itself.

(Karen, SHUDUP! I know I fear Surgical procedures! But it ain't getting me to SRS any fast!)

and for the record...i feel that not knowing if you are cd or ts or something in between is perfectly reasonable...

I really don't see it as an issue, for the individual.

But what has been said by Tess and a few others now, is that it's important to them to define themselves to other people.

I agree. And I spent an hour trying to explain the Gender Spectrum to a group of Student Counselors on Monday!

We constantly hear "I don't believe in labels" and then in the next sentence "Well I'm a Crossdressing Bi Male"

Labels Counter: 3
- Crossdressing
- Bi
- Male

Some TS's are worse!

Look at me: TS M2F IS Lesbian 'Hermaphrodite' Woman with Male Attributes too.

Labels: 7 :)

<snip>that goes for every type of "gender blessed" person out there..we should all stick together and enjoy our diverse and special community

Yeah right, I wish! The problem comes down to label interpretation, some people thinking they are better than others, a lack of tolerance within the diverse community itself because as more people make more connections, more intolerance is going to arise.

pruella

02-11-2009, 05:32 AM

to give some perspective on where i stand, i hate it when people ask "how often do you dress," inferring i'm only female by the clothes i wear.

I think you will find it's mostly men who are asking this question. It will be TV Fetishism men, or just plain men who are jaded in their marital relationships.

Here's my list:

If you fit any of these groups don't contact me:
1. I'm a straight married male who's wife doesn't know I date T-Girls and I like sucking ****,
2. I'm a Straight Married Male who wife doesn't know I dress, and can meet you but in Drab only
3. I'm not gay or Bi, married, wife doesn't know, don't want to suck but like being sucked by a girl with a big clitty
4. I'm a TS and like meeting people, my wife doesn't know and I'll be coming with a beard in a shirt and trousers
5. I'm a TS, I want to meet other TS's who can bring clothes and makeup to help me look like a woman
6. I can only come to your place on Wednesday night between 8pm and 9. My wife doesn't know.
7. If I can't come to your home and meet your wife, kids and family and you say you are TS
8. I'm Interesexed so fast track my SRS so I can have sex with a hot guy next Friday night and find out what its like to be a woman

Here's my next big list:

1a. ARE YOU DRESSED? Of course I fookin am, I'm as close to as TS as an IS person can get.
Not to mention I don't want to get arrested when I go shopping.
1b. DO THEY KNOW YOU DRESS? Yes of course my family does, my daughters pick my clothes and shop with me.
And my partner and I share the wardrobe, I buy, she steals. Really.
1c. ARE YOU GOING DRESSED? I'd be arrested if I was naked.
2. WHAT ARE YOU WEARING? Usually CLOTHES, again I'd prolly get arrested without them.
3. COME STAY IN MY HOTEL ROOM? Sure is it the Honeymoon or Presidential Suite - with Spa!
4. Yes I can accommodate RG/GG's only. Unless you like children jumping all over you.
5. Do you go out dress? Well yes, besides the fact I'm a WOMAN, I do go out dressed.
6. Does your partner mind you dressing? We share a wardrobe, HELLO, did you read the profile below?

How many of those have you heard?

i'm female 24 hours of every day, but don't feel the need to prove that all day. this is where i think i differ from many crossdressers. i'm not changing my clothes, i'm changing my body, and that's the difference.

That would be Transsexualism not Crossdressing. So yes I agree.

Although one question: How do you PROVE you are female?

oh, one more thing: "born in the wrong body," and "trapped in a ______'s body" are the worst descriptions of being trans i can think of. it's an extreme oversimplification, perpetuated by the media. i have not met one trans person who feels those two quotes describe them implicitly. just doesn't cover everything.

I totally agree. Although many Transsexual fore bearers have this on their web sites and in their published books.

I think the phrase has been taken as a means of 'description' for simplification. Mind you, I hear it from many 'newbie' TS people who are in midlife crisis and just want to have, or need, an extreme event to shake them up a bit.

Although I think SRS is a bit too extreme if you ask me!

Crossing the gender divide and living that life for a few years is harmless, really.

Although, I am STUNNED as to the number of 'Men' who claim to be M2F, want to "live 24/7 as a woman" and yet refuse to cook, clean the house, change nappies, take the kids to school, do the grocery shopping, and beleive it or not - PREEN themselves every day! Well why should they, they have a wife to do that! They can chat online to blokes about penis and breasts!

Yup, I find it amazing that many of this evolving category are so focused on needing Breasts and loving their penis!

Someone will want to challenge me on this, if you do, PM me and I'll email you THOUSANDS (literally) of chatlogs. Most are from the last 12 months, an exponential growth. I can even give you the profiles of these people from when I first chat to them! Waste of time, mine, and yours!

These people are NOT Crossdressers or Transsexuals!

I doubt they even fit into the TG spectrum other than 'fantasy' and more likely to need a GLB support group than a TG support group!

pruella

02-11-2009, 05:34 AM

A couple of my acquaintances (met a few times, good friends of several of the club members) do "tough drag" -- really crazy clothes, drag shows in beards (even if it requires pasting on glitter to imitate beards if they don't happen to have one at the time.) Our fellow forum member Buffalo Bill deliberately goes out in skirt and big beard

They don't have Scottish Ancestry do they ;)

gagirl1

02-11-2009, 03:41 PM

pruella, i have no idea how to prove my gender. i bet if you asked alot of cisgender people, they wouldn't know either (assuming they knew that gender isn't about what is in between your legs).

noeleena

02-12-2009, 04:08 AM

hi... my back ground is scottish. name . Loch-head .. head of the loch . that all so means i can wear a kilt ...that is a part of my back ground ...a birth right if you like . that as a male is mine to take or be given .
on the other detail i am a women as well . andro. a transfemale . who will all ways be in transition knowing i can never ever be a male or a women . yet being both .
where does that put me . some one who will allways be different . . yet haveing been able to function as a male for some 50 years not a real male in some ways. yes . not every thing .........i am wired both male & female . i see things both ways as i did 45 years ago . not that i understood what was going on even at 10 i was different . so its all ways been there .
Now .. i know i can live as a women as far as i can go . body wise i was happy with my body in the main as a male this is the hard bit i saw some things that i was not sure about the water works dept . yet i did not have my womb a delema . yes this then starts to sound contray . because i am thinking both ways at the same time ..try that on & see how hard that is then youll know what we go through . for some its i am a male i need to be a women its not like as has been said . a mid life crisies . for me thats bull ......shit .....i have had that leveled at me so i know ....no this is from birth well. conception really ..so we have other detail to go through .
what i see is this only came out to me 2 years ago so now i have got it right . 59 years to get to know who i am & be able to live as me ... no one told me . no one said oh you are this or that . i mean ...NO...ONE...this came from in side , of me
So the ?? s . are.. do we know really when asked who or what we are . some do others of us we dont for a very long time & it would be very worng . for us to assume that . we can help i know that ..oh dear this is & can of worms not one to be taken lightly.. what we need to remember is our lives are so different ....our back ground .s countys so much is different .. i am not a fan of the labels . what i see is people who are .. hopefully not like me .. who are different . & we can live as one group of people getting to know others & learning about who we are .......

...noeleena...
So yes our understanding of who we are is now . how we get there that will depend on us as individuls .

pruella

02-12-2009, 09:54 AM

pruella, i have no idea how to prove my gender. i bet if you asked alot of cisgender people, they wouldn't know either (assuming they knew that gender isn't about what is in between your legs).

And today at a seminar I was running to 6 women and 1 male, I asked just that!

And you know what!

Initially all the superficial perceptions were put forward, then there was 'but what about hysterectomy, or infertility or penectomy or ..."

The conclusion from the 8 Human Resources team was that Gender is so ambiguous it doesn't and perhaps should not be used as a means of segregation or identification, at the very least in a work place.

However that did not answer the question! Just how to deal with the symptoms of Gender!

I've got another seminar in a few weeks, this bunch was really lively! So I'll hit them with the question again, out of curiosity more than anything else.

I can tell you one thing though, the organization I'm providing the seminars for is really open and welcoming. The attitude and response to questions, even the hard ones I put to them, were really positive.

They already have a great attitude to start with so giving broad knowledge and keys to things has been really positive.

Tgirl74

02-12-2009, 01:16 PM

Pruella your seminars sound amazing! I applaud you for what you are doing for the community, it sounds very positive! Thank You.

But you sound bitter and I feel like maybe you are letting a handful of bad experiences cause you to be quick to stereotype and define people and put them in your preconceived categories.

I myself live in a state of in between, I remain living as a guy because part of me can feel so good this way,I am a fitness trainer, I'm great at what I do, I enjoy my job, my friends, my girl, life is pretty chill and pretty cool.Other times I feel so overly feminine, so relaxed like a deep of fresh air, I feel unbelievably natural, I am Jacinda,This is me. Feeling this way at times feels so perfect ....but it will get to a point when I miss feeling Tall,Strong,Hard,Sexy,Confident, Just Chillin and Kicking Ass!

What am I?Who am I?How do I define this thing called my life?
Pruella I'm sure you have an answer but for me I don't like the choices.I have a strong feminine energy flowing through my blood but I'm also the Tall Cool One and I'm built to please!

making a choice.....one gender without the other would be an awful experience

I need both

we can be happy if we let ourselves be

J

sandra-leigh

02-12-2009, 01:22 PM

hi... my back ground is scottish. name . Loch-head .. head of the loch . that all so means i can wear a kilt

A true story:

One fine Saturday relatively early on in my Crossdressing career, I went to a moderately busy downtown park dressed in a short skirt (not scandalously so though), and a not-very-thick long sleeved top with decidedly female sleeves, and I had two layers of "add a cup inserts" taped to my chest... with the thinness of the top, if I was upright, the projection of the forms was distinct (but not large) -- you know, "boobs". I was (and I admit it) having an adolescent-type sexual rebellion day, where I wanted to be seen and thought of as an attractive woman (though I was in my early 40's at the time). I don't know whether anyone thought I was good-looking (in any way), but it was exhilarating.

On the Monday, at work, one of my co-workers approached me, and said approximately, "I saw you on Saturday in the park; you crossed right in front of me", describing the time and location that left no doubt in my mind that he had indeed seen me pretty clearly. :eek: And he then followed up by saying (approximately) that "You must have been practicing your Scottish heritage", to which I replied, "Uh, yah, something like that." And that was that -- he's never mentioned it since, and if he ever mentioned it to someone else, it never got back to me.

Now, that skirt I had on wasn't even close to a kilt, and he didn't mention the top at all, so he must have seen it for what it was and chosen to just tease me a little about it.

My Scottish heritage: yes, my father's mother's side was Scottish, and I inherited some of my basic body type from her -- if you have ever heard the expression "big boned", then that's me! But no, I haven't ever worn a kilt: a real kilt requires a well-practiced effort to put on. Besides, we are still not certain which tartan I'm entitled to.

The femme surname I use is one of the real surnames from my father's side of the family.

Nicki B

02-12-2009, 04:32 PM

CDs in my view are no more or less than a TS, just entirely different. I think most TS would agree "if only I could just wear Opposite Gender clothes and feel relaxed or less fatigued" but I'm afraid as Karen has said, and I've said - clothes do not make the TS :) Clothes usually make the CD.

It may not always be that clear-cut.

Gender Dusphoria is such a weird term. Crossdressing is a psychological need, maybe sometimes a want.

Have you ever, as IS, felt you were dysphoric?

Unlike a TS. A TS can't be 'part time' it's and all or none situation. Someone could be Androgynous TS, whishing to change genital structure, but still retain the expression of both genders. Just like an IS :)

Just because people don't express themselves fulltime, it doesn't mean they only feel that way part-time; it's always dangerous to generalise, or to label others?

I asked the question in a seminar to people mostly not exposed to the TG spectrum on Monday "What is a Woman?"

The answers I got back were all pretty much "The ability to bear a child"

Ouch! Maybe time for a thread :)

If you're going to tell a genetic woman who can't have children that she's 'not a woman', please let me know so I can make sure I'm not around at the same time... :hiding:

Intersexed is a better term and Intersexed XX/XY would be possibly the most accurate. (That's me BTW!) It's not a lot of fun either.

So are you a chimera/mosaic? How did you come to find out?

Or are you XXY or XXXY?

morgan pure

02-12-2009, 06:18 PM

Don't anyone here accuse Ms. Pruella of anything. She's realistic, and no dummy.

This is why I keep calling for some more categories.

pruella

02-13-2009, 04:16 AM

Damnit Nikki! I reply to you in the next message! Multiquote doesn't like requoting!

Don't anyone here accuse Ms. Pruella of anything. She's realistic, and no dummy.

This is why I keep calling for some more categories.

Hey!! I'm not a Category! *giggle* I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just me.

Pruella your seminars sound amazing! I applaud you for what you are doing for the community, it sounds very positive! Thank You.

Thanks for the compliment. They came about because some students had a go at me in the street one day. I called the college to complain. They wanted me to come in an ID the kids and then refer to the police. I said "Give me 2 hours in a room with them!" So now I'm educating people on, well to be honest, most of it is common sense!

I have to admit, I've been so welcomed in the administrative departments, it's quit a weird feeling going in with the attitude of "educating people on acceptance" when they are already accepting, so I've had to adjust my seminar to a more discussion style how a TS might feel, how you might feel, and some general knowledge.

I wish I'd recorded yesterdays seminar cause at one stage something triggered me into the spiel of of SRS works. The guy was screwing up his face in sheer agony, the women were all smiling and completely supportive.

But you sound bitter and I feel like maybe you are letting a handful of bad experiences cause you to be quick to stereotype and define people and put them in your preconceived categories.

I have my bitterness, but that's in my personal mind, not my professional. I am one of those people who can leave 'personal' at the front door when leaving home.

On the same token, there are to some degree categories for everything. Humans work on 'filing' things in boxes mentally so it's important to be able to guide people to find a 'best fit' otherwise they try and put square pegs in round holes!

My experiences are my power, my adaptability and my passion. Be they negative or positive, even the worst negative can be turned into a positive. I often do Damage Control for corporates or celebrities and turning negatives into positives is always critical!

I myself live in a state of in between, I remain living as a guy because part of me can feel so good this way,

See I'm trying to give that option an opening. Although I think the outcome is inevitable the mere fact I was repressed by hypnosis and psychological therapy for so many years has perhaps caused an extreme inverse reaction. So I'm giving myself time, but at the same time, making myself a future.

<snip>but it will get to a point when I miss feeling Tall,Strong,Hard,Sexy,Confident, Just Chillin and Kicking Ass!

I've NEVER in my life felt male. I've always had to extrapolate how a male would act or react and then fall into that stereotype. It never felt good, ut I never understood why.

making a choice.....one gender without the other would be an awful experience

How about being BOTH physically at the same time?

You're wife wanting penetrative sex whilst your uterus contracts and sheds you have a period!

Ovulation this week, my cycle got screwed up with my hormone fudging last month :( I'm a ship wreck one minute and a Pixie the next.

pruella

02-13-2009, 04:30 AM

It may not always be that clear-cut.

Of course not. As I have expressed some CD's are Borderline TS and versa. That intersect in my opinion would be quite difficult to deal with, but I'm sure those who are on that intersect thrive in their expression and passions.

Have you ever, as IS, felt you were dysphoric?

That's a tricky question. I guess for 12 months from the time I learned about being IS and that I had been lied to all my life, then discovering all the therapy and medical interventions, I felt totally confused and lost, fall into a very very seriously dangerous depression whilst other intense stressful things were taking place and I was mentally and physically exhausted.

So I made a choice, change me or change the world. Changing the world was not what most people would consider a fair decision. So it was left to change me.

Just because people don't express themselves fulltime, it doesn't mean they only feel that way part-time; it's always dangerous to generalise, or to label others?

Depends. Most of the CDs I have great friendships with are very much part time. Friday afternoon to Monday Morning. They aren't in the closet as such, their work colleagues know about their playfulness, some have had encouragement to 'bring her to work' on occasions. But one friend told me very specifically her CD personality is her social life, not her work life and she loves it that way.

I do not thing a TS however can be 'part time' because transsexualism is so much more than just the clothes. Crossdressing isn't as physiological. It may be psychological, but its hardly a 'crisis' psychology. If anything a CD's crisis is not having the freedom and acceptance to 'switch' as they wish. Something I greatly support and encourage because for every CD that plays the gender boundary socially, a TS can be less focused on 'passing' and ore focused on living. If you get what I mean.

If you're going to tell a genetic woman who can't have children that she's 'not a woman', please let me know so I can make sure I'm not around at the same time... :hiding:

I sure will never say such a thing! I use that as an example for people when asking them to define a Woman, or a Man. And I use physiological and medical 'catastrophes' to make anyone who defines a woman as 'child bearing' or a man as 'with penis' to reconsider.

So are you a chimera/mosaic? How did you come to find out?

Yes I am, it seems. I found out when I got rushed to hospital one day an orange/green colour with no feeling, no vision and no hearing. They did some basic tests and sent me home saying the tests were contaminated. I took the results regardless. Four weeks later it happened again, but I wasn't in a foreign country this time. SO just had to deal with it.

Four weeks after that, it happened again and this time I went to a private doctor. He did the same tests, came back with the same results: Estrogen and Menses in the urine. I said too coincidental, he said lets so some more tests. So took some needles - which I HATE and an still traumatized by - and took 7 samples. Four came back XX 2 came back XY and one came back contaminated.

Then he conducted some limited (because of my circumstances) physical and internal inspections and discovered post operative scaring.

Or are you XXY or XXXY?

Fortunately not. If what I am is in fact fortunate?

So far I've only found 6 other people in the world who are similar to me. I'm sure there are hundreds more, but finding them is challenging :) Assuming any know!

One girl I know only found out 2 years ago when she was in a car accident and they opened her up to stop internal bleeding and discovered ovaries. Eeeeps! I think I'd have gone into a coma!

noeleena

02-13-2009, 04:48 AM

hi... nice one Tess-Leigh . oh the tartan. not sure on that at all i know we had one may be one day ill see it .... nice to know we have a few scots on board ....
...noeleena ...

gulliver

02-13-2009, 05:36 PM

I've always felt 'different' from others in that I've never understood the male/female dichotomy - especially the clothing 'rules' !
Although I always wanted to wear more 'girly' clothes, I didn't start doing that openly until I was about thirty.
Over the years since then I've grown more confident with my dressing although I've never tried to 'pass' - a shaved head and beard tend to give clues !
I've suffered from depression for many years. :sad:
I've also taken the COGIATI test a few times - every time being classed as Androgynous.
Some years ago, after much research I started using Estraderm patches and Spironolactone to grow breasts - which are now a nice 36b. :D
The drugs have brought unexpected psychological benefits - I feel more balanced and happy with myself.
I do NOT want to transition.
I feel uneasy where people who have a 'femme' name etc are concerned.

Last November I went to see a Gender Dysphoria specialist who told me I was transsexual (although I prefer to 'categorise' myself as a male lesbian - someone who would probably have been better born female, and is only interested in females).

That visit seems to have had a profound effect on me - I'm calmer and less worried about what others think. I have a better idea of what I am. I'm also more likely to wear girly clothes day-to-day.

The annoying thing is that because I don't want to transition, I can't get any support from the NHS and I'm not covered by any of the employment discrimination laws. :Angry3:

What am I ?
To me, I am me. A person who is genetically male with larger than usual (for males) breasts. I dress as I want to dress - I enjoy being girly, and I don't particularly care what other people think. If they judge me on my appearance, they're usually wrong and probably not worth knowing anyway :)

Does my girly dress sense (on which girl friends have complemented me) make me unworthy of the society we live in ? - no !
Does society's reaction to me alienate me and cause me to relish it's impending downfall ? - in general, yes !

Luckily I have many friends, all of which treat me the same whether I'm wearing jeans and t-shirt or skirt and knee boots !

If I have any advice for anyone, it's just be yourself. I know from my own experiences that sometimes that's a lot easier to say than do but after spending many years on this path of self-exploration and knowledge, I can honestly say that it's worth it - even though I might not agree when I'm feeling down (a state I'm experiencing less and less !).
Where others are concerned, encourage people to ask questions if you can - not only will that help them understand, it also helps you.

Sorry if this appears a bit disjointed in places but for me it's such a big subject that it's sometimes difficult to mention all I want to and still be concise. One day I will start writing that book !

Nicki B

02-13-2009, 09:35 PM

That's a tricky question. I guess for 12 months from the time I learned about being IS and that I had been lied to all my life, then discovering all the therapy and medical interventions, I felt totally confused and lost, fall into a very very seriously dangerous depression whilst other intense stressful things were taking place and I was mentally and physically exhausted.

Then it sounds like you do suffer dysphoria - discomfort with seeing yourself as male, or with having a male anatomy, or with being treated as male, socially - or a mixture of these?

IME the difference between 'CD' and 'TS' is not frequency, but the intensity of these feelings - there is a wide spectrum, it's not a clear-cut division between the two - which is why I prefer TG or trans as a description of us all?

One girl I know only found out 2 years ago when she was in a car accident and they opened her up to stop internal bleeding and discovered ovaries. Eeeeps! I think I'd have gone into a coma!

IME, it's not uncommon for this to be found during SRS - genetic testing is still v.rare. However I have two good friends who definitely are Klinefelter's (i.e. XXY). Neither would identify as TS, although both have lived some of their lives as men, some as women - one has fathered children? :)

pruella

02-14-2009, 04:38 AM

Then it sounds like you do suffer dysphoria - discomfort with seeing yourself as male, or with having a male anatomy, or with being treated as male, socially - or a mixture of these?

It's kinda hard for me to say to be honest, I've had a lot of trauma and 'therapy' so it's been a bit of an eye opening ride the last couple of years.

I am trying to convince myself as a base line that my body is what I have and I should accept it. Just as any disabled or birth 'deformed' person does.

My issue is that having had surgical procedures as a child, my body has already been modified to suit a gender perspective and I think this is the issue I'm struggling with. I really do not have MY BODY, I have what someone created for their own personal needs. (Which might be more sinister now than I expected.)

I don't mind sex as I am, I enjoy sex, to a degree. I do not enjoy "90 second sex" I really like a total sensual experience - maybe that's the issue - avoiding the genitals till the last minute when my whole body has entered into a sensualised state? Interesting thought.

I have for the last yea felt very strongly "wrong" in the genitals, so maybe the physical dysphoria is growing rapidly. It's something I have to watch very close because I can become quite extreme if there isn't balance.

IME the difference between 'CD' and 'TS' is not frequency, but the intensity of these feelings - there is a wide spectrum, it's not a clear-cut division between the two - which is why I prefer TG or trans as a description of us all?

Call it intensity if you wish, but is it not really a CDs desire to express temporarily (in most cases) a feminine persona, or merely just to 'dress' for relaxation purposes?

A TS doesn't 'dress' or try and express a feminine persona for a short time or just for social outings, a TS lives permanently in the state of mind -v- body confusion, a hostile debate that something is not right in the whole physiological construct of themselves which creates conflict and identity crisis.

I know that for the week that we changed countries, I 'DRABed' for the flight and first few days. I was anxious about 'coming out' again in a new place. Immigration laughed at my visa photo cause it's totally feminine, whereas my passport photo is older and very not feminine. She said "You don't look like your visa photo, do you need to change?" with a smile and advised that I really should not have been afraid to enter as who I am, only a few jerk Immigration people will do the wrong thing and they get sorted out very quickly.

So there's some advice for traveling to some parts of the world.

But that DRAB week was intense. VERY VERY intense for me. I was moody, unhappy and felt I was projecting a lie and a fraud. There is more to my 'new life' story and having to in some ways 'come out' again because of my wife and her 'rules' but after the reasons for those rules expired, things were much better, for me and my mental state.

I may simply be reacting very strongly to having been forced to create a life time appearance that was not congruent with my relaxed mind.

I also had an issue of 'acting' in the stereotypical male expressions, both in the work place, what I did, how I talked etc. It has in some respects, upon reflection, made me a very good Actress. Although when I played a Transitioning TS role in a film last year, I was uncomfortable at the time of shooting the male parts and even watching it gives me the creeps.

However, I realise to be a successful Actress I have to play characters and sometimes they will conflict with my beliefs, my values and my gender. So I am training myself to enjoy the fact I can do these fascinating roles!

Hey if Cate Blancette can play Bob Dylan why should I complain!

I ma trying to work out now, if I can be comfortable with my body as it is for the most part and my social appearance as it is. I suspect as each day passes this is not the case, but at least I can think about this carefully.

IME, it's not uncommon for this to be found during SRS - genetic testing is still v.rare. However I have two good friends who definitely are Klinefelter's (i.e. XXY). Neither would identify as TS, although both have lived some of their lives as men, some as women - one has fathered children? :)

It's pretty rare for Klinefelter's people to have the ability to have children, be they male or female. But it's not unheard of. Just like it's pretty rare for XX/XY people to be totally fertile in both sexes. Some are not at all, some are half and half and one other I know like me is totally both ways. We call it the 'Twin' Syndrome :)

XXY people tend to be pretty comfortable in their 'birth' gender and rarely have the issues of Transsexualism. They are just 'men' or 'women' and quite comfortable as that. No doubt there are some some who are TS.

Intersexed doesn't necessarily mean a person is Transsexual or a Crossdresser. It just means they have chromosome variants to the gender norm of XX or XY.

Nicki B

02-14-2009, 10:06 PM

I am trying to convince myself as a base line that my body is what I have and I should accept it. Just as any disabled or birth 'deformed' person does.

None of us are deformed - we are variations, which is exactly how nature always works? It's only certain societies which can't cope with that..

Call it intensity if you wish, but is it not really a CDs desire to express temporarily (in most cases) a feminine persona, or merely just to 'dress' for relaxation purposes?

A TS doesn't 'dress' or try and express a feminine persona for a short time or just for social outings, a TS lives permanently in the state of mind -v- body confusion, a hostile debate that something is not right in the whole physiological construct of themselves which creates conflict and identity crisis.

If there is a spectrum, then, plainly, some people will fit those descriptions - but many others will experience a mixture of the feelings/behaviours you describe.

Behaviour exhibited 'temporarily' does not mean the underlying condition isn't full time?

I know that for the week that we changed countries,

Was that your trip to the UK?

XXY people tend to be pretty comfortable in their 'birth' gender and rarely have the issues of Transsexualism. They are just 'men' or 'women' and quite comfortable as that. No doubt there are some some who are TS.

Intersexed doesn't necessarily mean a person is Transsexual or a Crossdresser. It just means they have chromosome variants to the gender norm of XX or XY.

Many IS people would not wish to be seen as part of the trans community, certainly - however there are some who identify as trans who discover they are IS (it is a conditon which isn't normally looked for, unless there are obvious anatomic markers)?

Of the two XXY people I spoke of, one has yo-yo'ed between living as a man and as a woman, but is now trying to live as male with the benefit of testosterone injections.. The other lived the first half of her life as a man, married, had kids, served 22 yrs as a soldier - but when her breasts started to grow on their own, started to live and work as a woman, had SRS and has lived with a man for the last four+ years? :)

pruella

02-15-2009, 11:38 AM

Last November I went to see a Gender Dysphoria specialist who told me I was transsexual (although I prefer to 'categorise' myself as a male lesbian - someone who would probably have been better born female, and is only interested in females).

Gulliver, you simply can NOT call yourself MALE LESBIAN. It's a total oxymoron and you will find yourself very seriously marked as a fantasist and shunned.

The term Lesbian is very very clear it meaning - it means a Female that engages in homosexual sex.

As you do not have Female Genitals and you do NOT intend to transition to such, you can NOT use the term lesbian.

It is accepted to be a Transsexual Female Lesbian. Even in Post Operative status, however to Practice being Lesbian without the right genitals is not going to happen.

If you were better born as female and only interested in females then you are a Transsexual.

However if you maintain your male body and the concept of male penetrative sex, and you only engage in sex with women using your penis, then you are a Straight Male.

You can NOT have lesbian sex. It's a physical impossibility based on what you have said. And just because you have B Cup breasts does NOT make you a woman.

Sexuality and Gender are NOT the same so you can't be, nor can you have the term: a Male Lesbian.

Sexual Orientation is entirely based on physical gender. Gender is not based on sensual orientation.

Sorry to be brutal on this point but it is, to me anyway, quite offensive for men who succinctly enjoy male penetrative sex with no intention of transitioning to the female genitals to be going around saying they are lesbian. It's damaging to the Lesbian community who also continue to struggle for legal and social acceptance in many parts of the world.

I am not sure what you should call yourself, given your unusual dysphoric description. Like me, I think you fall outside the social boxes.

Nicki B

02-15-2009, 11:48 AM

Gulliver, you simply can NOT call yourself MALE LESBIAN. It's a total oxymoron and you will find yourself very seriously marked as a fantasist and shunned.

Do a search here and see just how many times the term comes up.. It's in fairly common usage.

And you really think lesbians don't engage in penetrative sex? :rolleyes:

pruella

02-15-2009, 11:57 AM

None of us are deformed - we are variations, which is exactly how nature always works? It's only certain societies which can't cope with that..

Well I did put 'deformed' in quotes for the reason that it's a term used to create a prima facie perception.

Mermaid Syndrome is considered a deformity, yet the kids with the Syndrome are fascinating in themselves.

Behaviour exhibited 'temporarily' does not mean the underlying condition isn't full time?

Getting into a very clinical area now. Because once a behavior is exhibited, the body may have received what it needs to not continue exhibiting behavior for a time.

Again, a TS exhibits a permanent 'full time' need of comfort to represent their minds gender and adapt to that. Whereas a CD usually doesn't. There really isn't any such thing as a Part Time TS - simply because Transsexualism is a congenital 'abnormality' where as Crossdressing is either a desire, or sometimes a psychological issue.

Abnormality as in the terms of stereotypical social acceptance.

Psychological Issue does not mean the person has a negative concern. I have said elsewhere that a Crossdresser with psychological need to 'dress' should be encouraged and embraced, for ooooh so many positive reasons.

Many IS people would not wish to be seen as part of the trans community, certainly - however there are some who identify as trans who discover they are IS (it is a conditon which isn't normally looked for, unless there are obvious anatomic markers)?

Two pats there:

1. IS people don't want to be associated with the 'Trans' community because all too often it's seen as negative. Trans in some places is seen as Transvestite and seedy. Fortunately the term Transgender being abbreviated to Trans is HELPING dramatically resolve that, but we all need to educate people as we go through the day.

2. Yes there appear to be a number of Transsexual people who discover their IS condition by accident, either through life tragic event or at Surgical investigations.

There are, unfortunately, many people who are going onto the Transsexual program claiming they are intersexed and simply preaching what they have read on the net as a means to convince people as they go through the process. Fortunately they get discovered in due course, but it does waste extremely limited and valuable resources.

Of the two XXY people I spoke of, one has yo-yo'ed between living as a man and as a woman, but is now trying to live as male with the benefit of testosterone injections..

That's kinda strange in typical respects. XXY people usually don't have gender variations of that nature. XXY is quite a nasty think to have really.

The other lived the first half of her life as a man, married, had kids, served 22 yrs as a soldier - but when her breasts started to grow on their own, started to live and work as a woman, had SRS and has lived with a man for the last four+ years? :)

Again that's quite unusual for an XXY person too. Given, it is 'said' that 99.9% of XXY people are infertile. Although I come across quite a few who are not. So I won't be hasty.

XXY is a common 'throw' from TS people who try to use a physical condition to justify their Transsexualism. I know a few XXY people and although they are all different, there are commonalities.

XXY is 'well' known simply because it's the most common form. It's visual at birth in most cases, at least most cases of 'male' births. Female births can be a little more difficult and often don't show up till puberty or attempts to conceive.

One I know is capable of self impregnation, well was, until surgically rectified when he was a young teen at his request.

Personally I am skeptical of anyone claiming to be XXY. It's a club you really don't want to be in because the associated health problems, physically and mentally, in the long term just aren't worth it.

Unless someone has had a Karyotype test, any claim to Intersexed unless they have visual clues, is dubious.

I have found one thing though. The rarer kinds of IS condition people who are actively seeking are highly intelligent. Often play a little dumber than they are, but are usually found in very intense and advanced professions.

I know there are a few on this site :) Me, I just have an IQ greater than Einstein, not that it helps me in any way at all. But we've had the IQ discussion elsewhere and I've said it means little. Autistic people might not have great IQ passing ability but some are just mind blowing!

Fiona K

02-15-2009, 12:17 PM

This is what works for me it may, or may not work for others (Though in another place I said I'd never post in another lable thread)..............

1. There are 3 spectra at work in humans

a. Physical Gender; that which you were born. In almost all Humans this is either male or female. However in Intersex People there are characteristics of both to varying degrees.

b. Sexuality; regardless of Physical Gender, people can be attracted to the opposite sex, the same sex or variations in between.

c. Personal Gender; at one end of the spectrum a person who is 100% comfortable in the gender to which they were born, the other, someone who is transsexual (note the physical gender is irrelevant).

There is possibility of movement on the second two spectra, the first however is fixed at birth unless there is an intervention.

For me, I have seen too many friends who have self-described as Crossdressers or Transvestites who have gone on to transition to believe that one's position on the spectrum is fixed. Some have decided that the full surgical transition is a step too far and simply live in the other gender anyway.

Likewise, some people who have been 100% hetero have found the right person and have been attracted to someone of their own physical gender.

Like Nicki, I think we may be striking a good balance in the UK.
The term Transgender is a blanket one and covers all on the Trans-spectrum, from occasional crossdressers/ transvestites, to 100% full time non-op and post -op Transsexuals. It also covers FTM and MTF equally.

This is where lables are pernicious. Lables are designed by their nature to pin one to a description that is acceptable to others, rarely the person's own perception.

We can't prescribe how another human feels, walking a mile in their shoes isn't enough, we can't get behind the eyes of anther- not with any true accuracy.

So describe yourself as yourself, use the terms that seem to make sense to you and to your audience and try not to insult others along the way. Google has a simple phrase that covers a lot of ground- "do no evil". Maybe we can bear it in mind as the accusations and judgements fly here.

GypsyKaren

02-15-2009, 12:48 PM

Just because the term "male lesbian" comes up a lot doesn't make it so...

Karen Starlene :star:

Fiona K

02-15-2009, 02:41 PM

Just because the term "male lesbian" comes up a lot doesn't make it so...

Karen Starlene :star:

Agreed, but as a metaphor to explain to certain audiences what trans is about the statement can be of use. Eddie Izzard has used it in chat shows.

When I was challenged by a lesbian about why I didn't fancy men I had to point out to her that she didn't, so why should I?

pruella

02-15-2009, 02:47 PM

I'm with Karen.

Just because Blokes call themselves 'Intersexed' doesn't make them chromosome varient. Many use the term to mean "I change my orientation when I dress in womens clothes."

People often wrongly use a term in hope that it will become common. The more people who use it the more accepted it becomes in it's grey definition, or even RE -DEFINITION.

The term Transvestite is a perfect example of this. And WOW does it create flames and abuse when one uses the old definition.

At no time in history has a Transsexual been recorded as being a Transvestite!

Nikki said:
The term Transgender is a blanket one and covers all on the Trans-spectrum, from occasional crossdressers/ transvestites, to 100% full time non-op and post -op Transsexuals. It also covers FTM and MTF equally.

You left out Intersexed and Andgrogynes :)

I do feel, and try and encourage, most Transsexuals who have 'completed' their transition to consider themselves as the relevant common gender definition, afterall this is the goal of that transition process.

I do find many take great pride in being Transsexual. I kinda do in a way, but then I also have Woman, and Intersexed to fall back on :)

See again, the Men fade into the populous whilst many of the women do stand out a little. I guess it's just really good that society today seems to be more and more amblivilent to 'differances' and more focused on living happily.

gulliver

02-16-2009, 02:55 AM

Gulliver, you simply can NOT call yourself MALE LESBIAN. It's a total oxymoron and you will find yourself very seriously marked as a fantasist and shunned.
No change there, then !

As you do not have Female Genitals and you do NOT intend to transition to such, you can NOT use the term lesbian.
I wasn't aware that transitioning could give someone female genitals, but that's a moot point.

If you were better born as female and only interested in females then you are a Transsexual.

However if you maintain your male body and the concept of male penetrative sex, and you only engage in sex with women using your penis, then you are a Straight Male.
Aren't the previous two sentences contradictory?

And just because you have B Cup breasts does NOT make you a woman.
I didn't - and wouldn't - say that it does.

Sexual Orientation is entirely based on physical gender.
That doesn't feel appropriate either - but I can't put my finger on why.

I am not sure what you should call yourself, given your unusual dysphoric description. Like me, I think you fall outside the social boxes.
I try not to call myself anything (except my name !) but society's classifications sometimes help in self-discovery. I am me and I am fully aware that I don't fit any of the boxes completely.

pruella

02-16-2009, 07:14 AM

Gulliver, I've started a thread on the terms "Male Lesbian" hope over and express yourself! I want to get an understanding on this.

Agreed, but as a metaphor to explain to certain audiences what trans is about the statement can be of use. Eddie Izzard has used it in chat shows.

Yes but when a Comedian says "I killed George Bush" that doesn't mean they assassinated President George Bush.

I'm also sure if you take the comedians context of expressing MALE LESBIAN you might find it's in line with "GAY MALE" in the oxymoron sense.

Being a Stand Up Comedian I often coin such terms and phrases to get a laugh. It's part of Gag Building.

It sure doesn't create a truth or a reality.

When I was challenged by a lesbian about why I didn't fancy men I had to point out to her that she didn't, so why should I?

It's a bit more complicated when you are TS :) Even the M2Fs have the Orientation crisis because of Genitals!

In fact it's worse for the M2Fs cause they can't typically get themselves a nice 7 incher with a 5.5 inch girth.

But then Love isn't dependent on genitals, and most genuine and true Transsexuals learn and accept this, as do a small number of 'conventional' people in relationships.

Nicki B

02-16-2009, 06:46 PM

Just because Blokes call themselves 'Intersexed' doesn't make them chromosome varient. Many use the term to mean "I change my orientation when I dress in womens clothes."

I personally know of only two people who refer to themselves as intersex - they both describe themselves as having Klinefelter's syndrome (I used XXY for clarity). I have no doubts that's what they are, neither would have chosen to live the lives they have..

I know of a further six girls who had anatomical abnormalities discovered during SRS (mostly ovaries). I know of no one, 'bloke' or otherwise, who might be claiming to be IS spuriously - however I have often wondered how much overlap there is between IS (who show physical signs of mixed gender) and TG (who show mental signs of the same thing)?

The term Transvestite is a perfect example of this. And WOW does it create flames and abuse when one uses the old definition.

At no time in history has a Transsexual been recorded as being a Transvestite!

It's not an old definition - it's a relatively new one. 'Transvestism' was originally coined to describe what we now call TG and yes, it was used for those who are TS..

Hirschfeld himself was not particularly happy with the term: He believed that clothing was only an outward symbol chosen on the basis of various internal psychological situations. In fact, Hirschfeld helped people to achieve the very first name changes (legal given names were and are required to be gender-specific in Germany) and performed the first reported sexual reassignment surgery. Hirschfeld's transvestites therefore were, in today's terms, not only transvestites, but people from all over the transgender spectrum.

Nikki said:

No - I didn't.

Fi did. :heehee:

It seems to me that, for those of us who are trans, terms like 'straight', or 'gay', start to make little sense - we've already rewritten the rules.

pruella

02-17-2009, 08:48 AM

I have no doubts that's what they are, neither would have chosen to live the lives they have..

I'm guessing there are health related issues? :(

I know of a further six girls who had anatomical abnormalities discovered during SRS (mostly ovaries).

Yes, I've heard of the occasional like discovery. Usually Intersexed conditions are discovered at birth, at puberty, whilst trying to conceive or at some traumatic life threatening accident. I guess it can also be discovered at SRS, but surely this could be picked up before?

I know of no one, 'bloke' or otherwise, who might be claiming to be IS spuriously

Hehehe well you aren't hanging around the wrong places then! I realise now I wasted a year of my life having around with blokes :( No wonder I kept outgrowing them.

however I have often wondered how much overlap there is between IS (who show physical signs of mixed gender) and TG (who show mental signs of the same thing)?

TG is a very broad term - Crossdressers? Transvestites? Adnrogeynes? Intersexed? Transsexuals?

Do you mean Transsexuals?

TS don't so much show 'mental' signs, but have a brain chemistry that is opposite the physical gender. IS people can be TS, or not. I suspect the number of IS people who are TS is about the same as the number of TS people compared to the perceived normal person.

It's not an old definition - it's a relatively new one. 'Transvestism' was originally coined to describe what we now call TG and yes, it was used for those who are TS..

I don't want to go down this path again. There is way too much history recorded on the origins of Transvetistism and Transsexualism and the creation of the Umbrella Term for all gender variants known as Transgender.

Even the quote you provided indicates that the term which was adopted by Herschfeld was not a fair term because it was adopted from the already common term of Transvestite from centuries use before that related to sexual fetish.

However he needed a term that would be readily recognized at the time, and would later become Transsexual.

Well that's how I read the history. Prior to that, Transsexuals were considered only to be Hermaphrodites. Which again is not entirely correct, historically or present day.

Language is always evolving, I won't deny that. The problem is when people give so much credence to Truthiness that they forget the truth itself. (Truthiness is a new word created about 5 years ago.)

It seems to me that, for those of us who are trans, terms like 'straight', or 'gay', start to make little sense - we've already rewritten the rules.

Yes and no. It makes no sense whilst your brain is, for example, a Woman, and you have a penis, and you act and desire sex like a woman. It's a problem.

What about me? For all intents, a Hermaphrodite? Am I gay? Am I lesbian? Am I straight? Maybe I'm Double Straight? Am I Bi?

I'm not attracted to men, I don't love men, I can't fall in love with men.

I am attracted to women, I love women, and I fall in love with and am in love with a woman.

morgan pure

02-17-2009, 07:26 PM

I have more to read, but I love the term "male lesbian." I've met dozens in trannie bars in NY. I know guys whose wives don't mind too much. In fact I've been picked up by girls when I was in a dress a couple of times, and had fun.

What is this, Pruella's couch?

Gulliver I love you. There are a lot of us feminizing but not transitioning. I'm a girl in identification, but not in enculturation. I throw like a boy, but I do swing my hips as I walk.

Fiona, you are onto something. But people lable. That's what we do. I know some guys who live in an almost exclusively gay world in the city and are known and appreciated as "femme-boys." We used to call it gender-bending. Google jackie 60. Limelight in its early days was based in undefinable genders.

Some guy just wrote a book about the fetish community that was reviewed in the Times. I said to myself proudly as I read, "I love being deviant." And I am, and I wouldn't change that I am for anything in the world. Not even for Jennifer Anniston.

M

gulliver

02-18-2009, 02:46 AM

Gulliver, I've started a thread on the terms "Male Lesbian" hope over and express yourself! I want to get an understanding on this.

Sounds interesting - but I can't find it!

GypsyKaren

02-18-2009, 02:49 AM

It's in the private Safe Haven section, which is open to TS'ers and those who feel they may be TS.

Karen Starlene :star:

Leanne2

02-19-2009, 04:19 PM

I was on HRT for three months and loved every minute of it. The spiro did its thing and I never missed the ability to get it up. But my wife did. And the changes were going to make it hard for me to pass as a man so I slowly weaned off the meds for two more months. I miss the pink fog and may go back some day. If I was thirty years younger I believe I would transition. But I'm not so I'll have to settle for part time femininity. Leanne

morgan pure

02-19-2009, 08:01 PM

Pink fog.

(I'm still in it, gloriously. Perfect term.)

sandra-leigh

02-19-2009, 08:18 PM

Ummm, as the original poster, I don't think I quite see how discussions about the meaning of "male lesbian" as a term addresses the roots of the original questions ?

Carin

03-01-2009, 03:12 AM

What an interesting thread, apart from some off-topic deviations and maybe an overzealous amount of nit-picking on a few words not core to the OP. Still an active thread for 5 months!
I don't usually come to this forum, I don't have enough time to cover all in this site that I would like. However I came on this thread by accident, or was that fate. I post in response to the original post "How do you know whether you are "transgendered" or just a crossdresser?" understanding the OP's interpretation of Transgender - distinct from TS.

There has been discussion about the journey, with wayward analogies train rides etc. There has been a few references to being caught in the middle not sure of the next step. This is the focus of my post. If you want to get in to other aspects of my post outside this scope please do so by PM so we can stay on-topic.

There is a bit of a mountain between here and the coast. The highway over the mountain is twisty and a bit dangerous. When you get to the summit, you can go down the other side and get to the coast and the beach. But you can also hang a right at the summit and travel along Summit road. My journey took me along summit road.

I am not at odds with my male body. My journey has been 15-30 years in the making, depending on what markers I use. For the past 5 months I have expressed myself with a feminine presentation - forms and clothes - 24/7. I live with several of my young adult kids. I go grocery shopping etc. On rare occasions I will drab it down for very specific occasions. I like this summit road. It is this in-between state - one without a culturally accepted description. Observers assume I am on the path to transition. I do not. Sure I could be in denial - working up to the idea. Terminology-wise I use the term transgendered to describe myself to others - as in my extended family - refining that to say it is a middle ground that is more than a crossdresser and less than transsexual. I empathise with Tess, the OP , in telling her mother. As stated in other posts, I can not say that I feel like a woman because I do not know what it feels like to be a woman. While female traits and male traits are heavily overlapped these days, there is a reasonable bell-curve of norms, and I see myself as having a strong representation from both curves.

I am not trying to prove a point to anyone else. This is my journey.

I've also said many times before the border between a 'high level CD' and a 'low level TS' is so crossed that a person on that intersection may be far more confused and distressed than a CD or a TS a few inches away on their own scale.

I can't imagine what it's like being on that intersect. I think many TS's pass through that intersect as they evolve, but getting stuck on it - well here there is the question of this topic.

We can express the 'outer extremes' and identify that there is a scale and an intersection, but I suspect the OP was more concerned about their position STUCK in the intersection and looking for a direction - Four Roads - go back, turn left, turn right or go straight ahead.

... I feel most people want to fall into a bucket, rather than be stuck in the middle.

Maybe if we focus on making that intersection a happy place to be, that doesn't require confusion or 'decision' making to 'validate' oneself and their place, the issue of "Am I a TS or a CD" will go away of it's own, allowing those who are at the further ends of the spectrum ro travel as they go.

Apparently I turned right. Without doubt it is difficult even for those in this community to understand, much less the general public which includes my extended family. It IS a happy place for me. I do put effort into trying to understand it better, but not because I need to figure out the next move. Many people it seems do want to fit on one bucket or another. Certainly the general public wants to put us in one bucket or another, and apparently the psychiatric profession too. Will I need to come down from the mountain? I don't know, and I don't need to know. I like the view from here. If and when that time comes I will deal with it to the best of my ability - at that time.

pruella

03-01-2009, 09:48 AM

Carin, I kinda feel you are on that CD/TS border zone from what you describe in your fourth paragraph.

I think you are in that Intersection and the good news is you are happy there. I don't think I know anyone quite that comfortable to be male and yet female, and be happy.

The emphasis on putting a person in the CD or the TS bucket is simply because they don't fit the Androgyne bucket, definately not the TV bucket, they don't want to be a CD 'casual' but don't want to go into a transition process.

I'd love to see if we can give a label to the Intersection because I'll bet there are heaps of people who are there and feeling very confused as to what they have to do to 'fit in'

I also suspect tat Intersection is going to get very crowded in the next five years as it becomes more acceptable to be non-Op TS. (Thankfully)

Just going back say 20 years http://www.ifge.org/Article60.phtml we can hear how some TS people had a real battle to get where they wanted. With the attituds described in this article, I'm surprised there aren't more failed TS - then again, maybe there are because there are post op suicides too.

So the OP asks a question, and here the answer isn't "You have to be one or the other" because the spectrum on each of the groups varies greatly too. But they also overlap like two circles.

And it's that overlap that I think as a community we need to encourage people to feel comfortable in.

You don't have to be a CD or a TS. You can be both! One is psychological and one is phyisiological.

I'm IS and TS, why do some people, in the T community, say it's impossible. Hell why does it have to be?

Sarah.

03-08-2009, 10:46 PM

These labels are such a pain. I used to think that I was just a CD, but my feelings have changed and now I don't know what I am in relation to the acronyms. I found out about "androgyne" and I think it is the best so far.

Elise.Matei

03-17-2009, 03:50 AM

It's how YOU think of YOURSELF. There are men and there are women. While there is a wealth of commonality between the two sexes there are undeniable, important differences. And while there are always exceptions to the rule, there IS a list of differences between the way women and men think, feel, behave, act, react, emote, communicate, dress, gesture, look and sound. These characteristics are what defines the person a sbeing male or female. I would posit that the most important of these are not physical but rather mental, or emotional in nature. And that these feelings are highly correlated with gender identity in a clear cut quantitative way that is highly statistically significant.

In other words if you feel yourself to BE a woman, then you ARE a woman in the purest sense. It doesnt matter that you do not have the body of a woman. If your essence, your soul, your deepest sense of self is feminine, if that is how you know yourself to be, then that is what you ARE.

All the terminology is clear, when the srarting point is mind. And so...

Cross Dresser or Cross Dressing (CD): A neutral term that means dressing in the manner of the opposite sex.

Transvestite (TV): An individual who feels and accepts himself as a man, who sometimes likes to crossdress as a woman. And maybe even behave as a woman. But in his mind, he always knows himself to BE a man and doesnt want to change that.

Transgendered (TG): (1) A person who has an XY chromosomal genotype but who in his heart of hearts knows himself to BE overwhelmingly feminine. In fact it is a misnomer to refer to this individual as "he" or "him". You must refer to someone who moment-by-moment is self-identified as a woman, as "she" or "her", etc. This individual would automatically check off all those characteristics listed under the "Woman" heading indicated above. SHE would have an experience of self that is highly correlated with womanhood. In this persons mind, (s)he feels herself to BE a woman. (2) The reverse arguement holds true for a person who has an XX genotype but who in her heart of hearts feels herself to BE ovwewhelmingly male. By the same arguement in (1), this person IS a man, even though he has a female body.

The rest is easy, if you understand and accept the above:

Straight vs Gay vs Lesbian vs Bisexuality: People who are physically intimate (have sex with) only members of the opposite gender are straight. Usually used to indicate an XY man paired with an XX female, it is, by the above definition of TG, also entirely appropriate to describe the following as straight sex from the TG individuals pov:

(1) a TG XY man with a TG XX woman. Some would call this "role reversal" because the phenotypical male is actually the female, and the phenotypical woman takes charge as any man would. It may be "role reversal" to the naive observer but NOT to the TG's. To them they are assuming their natural roles in accordance with their internal deeply seated self identities. To them it IS straight sex.

(2) a TG XY man with a non-TG XY man: (a) from the TG's perspective this is straight sex where he is, of course, the woman; (b) from the non-TG XY mans perspective this is homosexuality which means this non-TG XY man is either gay or bisexual.

(3) a TG XX woman with a non-TG XX woman: (a) from the TG's perspective this is straight sex where she is, of course, the man; (b) from the non-TG XX womans perspective this is homosexuality which means this non-TG XX woman is either a lesbian or bisexual.

Lesbianism: Usually use to indicate a non-TG XX female being intimate with another non-TG XX female, it is, by the above definition of TG, also entirely appropriate to describe the following as lesbian sex:

(1) a TG XY man with another TG XY man: (a) even though by genotype and phenotype these appear to be two men being intimate, they are in reality, and as a matter of fact relating to each other exactly as would two non-TG XX females. And they realize this is a lesbian relationship. There is nothing gay or bisexual about it. To the uninformed observer it appears that way but that opinion is based on the superficial, least important aspect of such an interaction. Two TG XY men, are actually two women, and should be referred to as such. It is only by the cruelest trick of nature that they are forced to inhabit male architecture. It is how you perceive yourself that determines ones gender. In the province of the mind what one feels and believes to be true, IS true. Therein lies the principal determinant of ones gender identification and the nature of ones sexuality. Let there be no mistake - these are two females!

(2) a TG XY man with a non-TG XX woman: (a) from the TG XY mans perspective he (or more appropriately "she") is being intimate with ANOTHER woman, so this IS a lesbian relationship; (b) from the non-TG XX womans perspective, IF she doesnt appreciate how deeply feminine her partner is identified, this may be viewed by her as a heterosexual form of intimacy where she might describe her partner as having a "kink" where he is acting as if feminine.

(3) a non TG XX woman with a TG XX woman: (a) from the non TG XX womans pov this is lesbian sex, however she will, by definition play the passive role; (b) to the TG XX woman's perspective, this is straight sex as she sees herself as a man, having sex with a woman.

I could go on with this but I think this really should clear up the confusion. As long as you ignore the "body" and stay focused on how the individual feels themself to BE, everything falls into place - even though at first you may feel disoriented, everything I have elucidated above is fact.

It doesnt explain everything, because people are people and their self-identity can fluctuate in time. But by the definition of TG, above, the rest simply follows logically.

(OMG I hope THIS does not get deleted by a mod. It is a sober, rational, even clinical discussion pertinent to this thread AND this website in general. Ther is NOTHING titillating or prurient about the above discussion).

One last thing.

Transexual: This is a transgendered individual who has the courage, time, ability and freedom (and money) to undergo physical treatments that change his or her physical body to match the gender that individual knows themself to BE: (a) It includes a TG XY man who is on hormone therapy to change his physique, to grow natural breasts and all the other physical/emotional changes that result of a fiminine nature; (b) It includes a TG XX woman who is on testosterone therapy to change her physique to become more male-like, grow hair, grow muscle and all the other physical and emotional changes that result; (c) It includes a TG XY man who has undergone breast augmentation surgery where silicone or saline sacks are implanted to create breasts, in lieu of hormone therapy; (d) It include anyone who undergoes sex-change surgery where the genetalia are altered to look and function like the opposite sex; (e) In general, it includes anyone who is doing anything physical, by way of medicines, herbals, or mechanical means to attempt to change ones body to more closely match the opposite gender, the one they associate themselves to.

Kaitlyn Michele

03-17-2009, 08:13 AM

Carin,

The "intersection" talked about in this thread should be a perfectly happy place to be for those who want to be there..or those who find themselves there and feel good about it...maybe we should call you a transgendual!!!!:devil: that way you'll have a label too!!!(sarcasm off)

i think labels are just one groups way of trying to put themselves above others, or as way of getting something..if one group is viewed as better, then people will feel pressure to join that group, or they will "fight" to protect the group they are in and this creates us vs them, this is certainly true in the straight vs queer world, the queer vs tg world (ENDA anyone?), but even in our community of "gender variant" people it can be true and i think thats sad....

one day at a time as my therapist says...and kudos to you Carin, your head is on straight and you seem pretty centered and happy!!! :drink:...

Sharon

03-17-2009, 10:55 AM

Transexual: This is a transgendered individual who has the courage, time, ability and freedom (and money) to undergo physical treatments that change his or her physical body to match the gender that individual knows themself to BE: (a) It includes a TG XY man who is on hormone therapy to change his physique, to grow natural breasts and all the other physical/emotional changes that result of a fiminine nature; (b) It includes a TG XX woman who is on testosterone therapy to change her physique to become more male-like, grow hair, grow muscle and all the other physical and emotional changes that result; (c) It includes a TG XY man who has undergone breast augmentation surgery where silicone or saline sacks are implanted to create breasts, in lieu of hormone therapy; (d) It include anyone who undergoes sex-change surgery where the genetalia are altered to look and function like the opposite sex; (e) In general, it includes anyone who is doing anything physical, by way of medicines, herbals, or mechanical means to attempt to change ones body to more closely match the opposite gender, the one they associate themselves to.

If I may quibble about something here: a transsexual is anyone who is of the opposite(let's assume for arguement's sake that there are only two) mental gender than that of the body they were born with. It doesn't matter what physical changes you make or do not make. I was born transsexual. I did not become transsexual the day I began to adapt my physical self to my mental self.

Elise.Matei

03-17-2009, 12:35 PM

Sharon, You are not quibbling at all! Thank you for your thoughtful response. It is an extremely important point. I understand what you are saying and understand exactly how you are using the word transsexual; that a transsexual has the mental gender that is the opposite of their biological gender. Ones interior experience, identification and REALITY is everything feminine, womanly, sugar and spice and all that is nice - all happening (unfortunately) within a male vehicle. The interior is a VW Cabriolet, or a Mercedes-Benz C230 Kompressor (ultimate "chick cars") but the exterior is a Ford Mustang or a Dodge Viper (very much guy cars).

Please understand, Sharon, that I am not saying the meaning you personally ascribe to the word "trasnssexual" is not generally OR technically incorrect when used to describe the reality of what you are. It is probably I who am quibbling (forgive me if it seems so). I am NOT challenging the reality of that which you are labeling the transsexual state of being, for I am one as well (although in me it was actively repressed until recently). I am just wondering what is the best term to describe this state of being and unless I am wrong, there is currently no standard or clear-cut universal specific meaning that differentiates between the word transsexual and transgendered.

I love words and language. A word should MEAN something specific or at most have several specific nuances of meaning. When words are ambiguous, there is no clarity. When there is ambiguity and lack of clarity to important words, there is misunderstanding. When there is misunderstanding, there is conflict, bad decision making, wasted time, wasted effort, wasted money, wrong-headed emotional investment and even tragedy.

I have to stop now - but I want to continue this exchange with you later today - so will post again to complete my thought. Thanks!

-------------------------------

Would you agree with this?

"Transgendered" = A man with the mental gender of a woman; and a woman with the mental gender of a man.

"Transsexual" = Transgendered person who takes medical and/or surgical steps to make their body match their mental gender

The reason I think the term "Transsexual" should be reserved for that group of Transgendered people who take the relative drastic steps to change their physiology is because the word "sexual" has a much more overt physical implication or reference, than the word "gender" which is a little more diffuse.

There is a difference between someone who has the mental gender of a woman and the body of a man who then takes body-changing hormones or undergoes sex-change surgery ~ compared to someone who has the mental gender of a woman and the body of a man who doesn't take these steps, and perhaps never will.

Why? Because when you DO take those medical steps and effect an actual change to your body, you enhance and enlarge your mental gender identification as a woman. By taking those medical steps you become more thoroughly womanly than when you don't.

I'm not saying one person is "better" than the other, just that the one who goes the medical route to change their body, is definitely more of a woman than someone that does not. That's so obvious, I would call it a truism.

That being the case, I think it is appropriate to distinguish between the two. And I would say the term "Transgendered" is more generic and less specifically references ones physiological state compared to the word "Transsexual", which has traditionally been associated with for instance, "she males" (an individual having the breasts of a woman, the shape and softness and curviness of a woman, but the genitalia of a man). Right?

So you and I are Transgendered, and so is a Transexual. But we are not Transexuals because our bodies are still male bodies since we do not take hormones and have not had surgery. We have to work harder to maintain our feminine appearance, shave our bodies, wear a wig, use artificial gimmicks like breastforms to make it seem like we have real breasts. And if we dont do those things our bodies will look very, male. But someone on hormone therapy or has had surgery doesnt have those problems, or at least not as many, as their bodies ARE physically equivalent to a womans, or approaching that in an important way we could never experience.

The word "Transexual" is more powerful and so should only refer to TG's who change their physiology.

Now.... back to Transvestite. This is technically a man who wears womans clothes even though he has the mental gender of a man (not a woman like you and I). Thus a transvestite is NOT Transgendered. Right?

Finally, the word Cross Dresser. Both Transvestite's and Transgendered people Cross Dress. The word Cross Dress is VERY generic. A so called Drag Queen also cross dresses, but he is NOT Transgendered because he has the mental gender of being a male.

Where it gets difficult is when speaking of sexual behaviour, where the terms Straight (man + woman), Gay (man + man) and Lesbian (woman + woman) are used to describe sexual behaviour.

This may be a subtle point but it is KEY: The nature of the sexual relationship depends on the persons mental gender NOT his or her physical body.

SO...

1. If man A who has the mental gender of a woman, then has sex with man B who has the mental gender of a man: it is straight sex for man A but not for man B. You would have to say that Man B is either gay or bisexual. Right?

2. If man A1 who has the mental gender of a woman, then has sex with man A2 who also has the mental gender of a woman: it is female lesbian sex for both man A1 and man A2. Get it?

3. If man B1 who has the mental gender of a man, then has sex with man B2 who also has the mental gender of a man: it would be gay sex for both. Obviously.

4. If man A who has the mental gender of a woman, then has sex with woman A who has the mental gender of a man: it is straight sex for both. Get it?

5. If man A who has the mental gender of a woman, then has sex with woman B who has the mental gender of a woman: it is lesbian sex for man A but straight sex for woman B.

6. If man B who has the mental gender of a man, then has sex with woman B who has the sexual gender of a woman: it is straight sex for both. Obviously.

7. If woman A1 who has the mental gender of a man, then has sex with woman A2 who also has the mental gender of a man: it would be male gay sex for both. For sure.

8. If woman A who has the mental gender of a man, then has sex with woman B who has the mental gender of a woman: it would be straight sex for woman A but lesbian sex for woman B.

Is this valid or is it just semantics? Did I wast my evening with meaningless word-play? It makes sense to me if you buy the initial premise that it is the mental gender identification that defines the person, not his or her body.

Post Script

After having elevated the answer to a simple question to a veritable "science" with all the above however... with respect to answering the original question that began this thread

"How do you know if you are transgendered or just CD?"

your elegant statement really nails it Sharon:

"...anyone who is of the opposite mental gender than that of the body they were born with."

[end]

marla01

03-19-2009, 09:19 AM

Since this topic has been going on for five months, I'm sure about every idea possible has been brought up. So at the risk of being redundant, I would still like to throw in my 2 cents...

First, I find the question to be irrelevant. Or at least it should be irrelevant. Why? Because one's life should not be defined by their label. Instead, a label should describe a life. And much of this discussion has been about defining one's life based on a label.

I find this especially scary since there are no fixed definitions for these labels. Most people (including me) have their own definition based both on their individual experience and even their T* political/belief leanings. So if we cannot agree on a label, how important can that label be?

I also note that the initial question was politically loaded from the start with the word 'just' before CD, and the implication that there are only two possible conditions, TG or CD.

OK, now to a specific comment on the label transgendered. There are a number of definitions of TG, but for me it has always been an all encompassing label. Transgender refers to anyone who transcends societies gender rules. That label includes CD's and it includes TS's. It also included a wide swath of other labels like drag queens, androgonyms, TV's, two spirits, boychicks, gender queers, she-bears, ambigendereds, etc., basically anyone else who is not cisgendered.

Note, many people don't like this definition of transgendered because it associates their gender path with other gender paths they hate, however, it is still a very common definition. I can trace this usage back to at least 1990 in some glossaries and writings, and I also note that that is how the word is used in the term GLBT which is recognized by both the activist community and many world governments.

Marla

StaceyJane

03-19-2009, 09:29 AM

I would just like to say that If I had to choose between being a man and wearing women's clothes or being a woman but having to only wear male clothes. I would definatly choose being a woman and wearing just male clothes. That's because it's the body that important to me not the clothes.

kellycan27

03-19-2009, 05:08 PM

Gosh.... so much information, so many different thoughts.
personally.... it was just something that I always felt in my head and in my heart. i don't know all the scientific explanations, or the statistics, and I don't understand everything cd's ts's tg's str8,gay, androg, But I think I understand me, and what motivates me and what makes me happy, and what makes me feel like I am going in the right direction.

Elise.Matei

03-19-2009, 06:07 PM

...OK, now to a specific comment on the label transgendered. There are a number of definitions of TG, but for me it has always been an all encompassing label. Transgender refers to anyone who transcends societies gender rules. That label includes CD's and it includes TS's. It also included a wide swath of other labels like drag queens, androgonyms, TV's, two spirits, boychicks, gender queers, she-bears, ambigendereds, etc., basically anyone else who is not cisgendered.

Note, many people don't like this definition of transgendered because it associates their gender path with other gender paths they hate, however, it is still a very common definition. I can trace this usage back to at least 1990 in some glossaries and writings, and I also note that that is how the word is used in the term GLBT which is recognized by both the activist community and many world governments.

Marla

Right, Transgendered is a sort of all-encompassing term then. Marla, what you are saying is consistent with what I intuited, though you have expanded it to include all of the other sub-categories of human behavioral or lifestyle categories that I must confess, I am totally clueless about. Please educate me.

Two questions:

(1) Can you (within the strictures of what is considered acceptable language and content, as defined in the policies and guidelines currently in-force within this web-forum) please define the terms "drag queens, androgonyms, TV's, two spirits, boychicks, gender queers, she-bears, ambigendereds"? If this cannot be done in a manner that doesn't cross the boundaries of what is considered good taste, it is ok not to respond. I would just Google each one and try to find out for myself but you are very articulate and would save me the time of trying to decipher which of the 500,000 hits I'm sure will come up for each term, are closer to reality, vs the many that might be tainted by personal bias.

(2) But 1st... because I am so much in agreement with your umbrella-like definition of the term Transgendered, and how this has de facto validation by how it has been used in this generic all-encompassing way for 29 years by both activist groups and world governments, is there a similar, generally implied or universally accepted meaning for the word "Transsexual"?

Thank you.

marla01

03-19-2009, 08:16 PM

Two questions:

Arrgh, I hate trying to specifically define a lot of these labels, not only because there are many different definitions, but many of them are quite personal and/or political, and people tend to be touchy about them. Note that many of these terms I see as subcultural. For example, I see drag queen as a transgender expression that is specifically an artifact of the gay culture. But note, although it comes out of the gay culture, I consider the basic forces behind it to be the same as other transgendereds. So no one please shoot me for these definitions…

Drag queen - part of the gay culture where the transgendered expression is loud and over exagerated. The individual may be primarily motivated by the theater of it, but many have strong transgendered energies including many later become transsexual (kind of a gay version of crossdressing). Also Drag King for F2M.

Androgynym - Someone who negates or minimizes both the masculine and the feminine. Basically gender neutral. The old Saturday Night character Pat who you could not tell what gender they were is an example.

TV - Transvestite - I consider this to be about the same as crossdresser. Now one definition I have heard for dividing the two labels is that a crossdresser can have any motivation for their decision to crossdress, while a transvestite is purely motivated to express her/his gender. So a transvestite is a crossdresser but a crossdresser is not necessarily a transvestite.

Two spirit - Culturally, this derives from various American Indian cultures. There is not specific one to one match in our culture but seems to have been a mix of both transgendered characteristics and gay characteristics. Today, both gays and transgendereds make claim to the label.

Boychick - not sure, but I think it comes from the lesbian trans community.

Gender queer - an individual who plays with mixing the genders.

She-bear - I don't know where I picked up this label. It's on my list (I have a long list of gender labels I collect) but where I got it I don't know. Anyone know?

Ambigendered - a term similar describing an individual who embraces both genders.

Actually, if you are curious, here is a long list of gender labels I've collected over the years. I can't define them all but the list is fascinating…

transgendered
transsexual
transvestite
crossdresser
transgenderist
genderqueer
FTM/F2M
MTF/M2F
transman
transwoman
transperson
third-gendered
gendertrash
gender outlaw
gender warrior
trans
transfag
transdyke
tranny
passing woman/girl
drag king
drag queen
male lesbian
girl boy
boychick,
boy girl,
boy dyke,
gender-bender,
gender blender,
transqueer,
androgynous,
transfolk,
butch dyke,
nelly fag,
gender-different,
gender submissive,
man/boy with a vagina,
chick with a dick,
shape-shifter,
he-she,
she-male,
transboy,
transgirl,
androgyne,
gender variant,
gender****er,
trannyfag,
trannyqueer,
trannydyke,
Two Spirit,
new man,
new woman,
she-bear,
Tomboy,
intersexual,
female guy,
tranz,
bearded female,
herm,
hemaphrodite,
MTM/M2M,
FTF/F2F,
ungendered,
agendered,
genderfree,
bigendered,
midgendered,
polygendered,
pangendered,
omnigendered,
crossgendered,
byke,
boi,
pre-op,
post-op,
non-op,
no-ho,
epicene,
othergendered,
transkid,
female impersonator,
gender-atypical,
ambigendered,

As to answering the question of defining transsexual, there does seem to be some general agreement on the term if we can get away from the politics. It's strongly tied to the desire for physical modification of the body. Generally, I interpret it to mean someone who desires to modify their genitals or someone who has modified their genitals. The problem is that some who have modified their genitals reject the label now claiming they are no longer transgendered or transseuxal. And the label is sometimes applied to those that have done other modifications but do not desire to change their genitals (no-op TS, I have a couple of friends that have made this decision). The label is strongly associated with 'Gender Dysphoria' and the Benjamin Standards of Care.

I hope that gives a little insight, on at least how I see these labels.

Marla

Nicki B

03-19-2009, 08:57 PM

Ones interior experience, identification and REALITY is everything feminine, womanly, sugar and spice and all that is nice

Elise.. :rolleyes: :rofl:

I am just wondering what is the best term to describe this state of being and unless I am wrong, there is currently no standard or clear-cut universal specific meaning that differentiates between the word transsexual and transgendered.

That's perfectly true. TS is used by those who feel they need the term.

Would you agree with this?

"Transgendered" = A man with the mental gender of a woman; and a woman with the mental gender of a man.

Aren't you oversimplifying, hugely? You appear to be saying there can only be masculine or feminine - with no variation in between? I look around and see many, many shades here - not just black or white.

There is a difference between someone who has the mental gender of a woman and the body of a man who then takes body-changing hormones or undergoes sex-change surgery ~ compared to someone who has the mental gender of a woman and the body of a man who doesn't take these steps, and perhaps never will.

So, as mentioned earlier in the thread, how can some identify as non-op transsexual, then?

Thus a transvestite is NOT Transgendered. Right?

Finally, the word Cross Dresser. Both Transvestite's and Transgendered people Cross Dress. The word Cross Dress is VERY generic. A so called Drag Queen also cross dresses, but he is NOT Transgendered because he has the mental gender of being a male.

TVs, CDs, DQs, GQ and all the other labels are widely regarded as included under transgender - it's intended as an umbrella term. Of importance, I would suggest, is the amount of gender dysphoria felt by an individual?

Is this valid or is it just semantics? Did I wast my evening with meaningless word-play?

Aren't you just trying to put everyone into a little pigeonhole? If you need to feel 'ordered' yourself, then go ahead.. But be prepared that you may cause offence to others.

i think labels are just one groups way of trying to put themselves above others, or as way of getting something..if one group is viewed as better, then people will feel pressure to join that group, or they will "fight" to protect the group they are in and this creates us vs them, this is certainly true in the straight vs queer world, the queer vs tg world (ENDA anyone?), but even in our community of "gender variant" people it can be true and i think thats sad....

:yt:

That's the problem with all these labels - just look through the thread, at the judgemental implications of the language that have been used.

'Just', 'Only', 'Lower', 'Higher', 'Courage'... How do any of those exclusive terms help us to think and act as a community, in order to improve our lot? :idontknow:

Elise.Matei

03-20-2009, 12:32 AM

Well I must say, my eyes have been opened! :eek: Wow Marla, I am so impressed with your obvious dedication to and understanding of a world that is often confusing and mind boggling for its complexity. Your serious mindedness and enthusiasm is obvious by the long listing of terms you have collected over the years, many of which I can only guess at, and when I try too hard, it throws me for a loop.

I never believed there was just a simple little neatly packaged world of two or three varieties of psychosexual identification when I wrote my posts above. I purposefully wanted to keep it simple cuz even on that level there seems to be confusion regarding terminology. As I was writing my posts it occurred to me that there must be an entire spectrum of possibilities but its often best to keep it simple in the beginning. Then once I have a basic understanding down, to then try to gain a more comprehensive understanding and appreciation for what is now apparent to me; the sheer breadth and scope of the greater transgendered community. You have helped me considerably and I thank you for it. It IS much more involved than I ever imagined. I thought I knew everything when it came to human sexuality and gender. I see where that is definitely not the case.

As you have clearly stated, Marla, and as Nicki has also asserted by her own words, and when she echoed Michele's opinion... and what Kelly so movingly expressed (and by what so many others have said in this thread), there IS something almost dark and alienating about the very act of applying labels to people, even if it is for the express purpose of attempting to understand. But understanding each other is important. At least to have and idea of who someone is, whats important to them, how they think and how they differ from your own way of life. We are always comparing and analyzing. Always looking to see if there's a better way. We are a curious species and there is nothing more fascinating to wonder about than who and what we are. Not only does this allow one to avoid inadvertent unintended insensitivity, but it also allows for a fuller appreciation of the wonderful diversity that abounds, especially in a free society. By breaking down barriers to understanding, ignorance is erased and happiness and acceptance take its place. PLUS... one might discover a new way to be that maybe fits ones inner needs better.

I also agree that the down side is, when terminology replaces the "person" by pigeon-holing that individual into some artificial category, thereby not SEEING the person for what she or he truly is. History is replete with examples of bigotry and persecution. Mans inhumanity to man - is what makes the reading of human history so painful sometimes. On the other hand I don't know how anyone can really understand someone without words that have specific meaning. As Marla so pointedly demonstrated, it is one complicated and wonderfully diverse world of humanity out there - much of which I would now have to admit I am shockingly unaware and even feel foolish admitting this.

But without there being some standardized universally accepted lexicon, its easy to get confused if not downright vertiginous when attempting to understand some of the more exotic varieties of human experience wrt transgenderism. There's the rub though! What organization or institution has such authority to render and refine such terminology? I'm betting the issue of a need for such a "dictionary" comes up often within various activist or non-activist transgendered organizations. Unless there is one pre-eminant GLBT society or organization that is THE authority for all things GLBT, my guess is that not until GLBT - rights laws are considered by the U.S. congress will there be any truly formal definitions established that carries real and lasting authority. If other countries have such laws on the books already, maybe they will be used as a starting point as legal terminology is instituted here. When such laws are debated, I bet every single GLB and transgendered subcategory will be discussed and codified because money will be involved wrt to insurance issues, alt marriage and divorce, child rearing, parental rights, anti-discrimination, etc etc - and also because much input will be needed by a wide range of alt lifestyle groups.

I found this long thread very meaningful and educational. I'm glad I had the opportunity to participate with all of you. No matter the "labels" we use to define ourselves, every person is like a unique flower, blossoming. And while there may be neatly planted rows and pretty patches of flowers that are of the same variety, and also vast fields of randomly scattered wild flowers of many different types - the fact remains that we all need each other and that any one person is just as worthy and intrinsically valuable as everyone else. We share a common mortality and we are united by a common desire to live our lives in freedom and harmony, because only in such a world are we able to discover and express our individual potential to the betterment of all. We are so much more alike then we are different, but the ways we differ, one person from the next, are important enough to make each life truly unique. I believe no two people are ever identical. The flower that you are, once blossoming then gone, has never before existed in all the people who have lived and died in the past, and will never be repeated by all who are yet to be born into this world. Words and their definitions are important, but they can never capture the miracle and unique wonder of that which is your life. :)

Carin

03-20-2009, 12:44 AM

Aren't you just trying to put everyone into a little pigeonhole? If you need to feel 'ordered' yourself, then go ahead.. But be prepared that you may cause offence to others.

i think labels are just one groups way of trying to put themselves above others, or as way of getting something..if one group is viewed as better, then people will feel pressure to join that group, or they will "fight" to protect the group they are in and this creates us vs them, this is certainly true in the straight vs queer world, the queer vs tg world (ENDA anyone?), but even in our community of "gender variant" people it can be true and i think thats sad....

:yt:

That's the problem with all these labels - just look through the thread, at the judgemental implications of the language that have been used.

'Just', 'Only', 'Lower', 'Higher', 'Courage'... How do any of those exclusive terms help us to think and act as a community, in order to improve our lot? :idontknow:

Unfortunately, yes there is an intra-communal territorial aspect to the labels that does a dis-service. I was witness to an outburst of rage in what was supposed to be a Transgender support group because an individual considered my description of myself to be a 'game' while his condition was "real". I haven't gone back to that group since.

In communicating with the world at large - our relatives, community, co-workers - the lack of adequate language comes across like we do not know what we are talking about. The internal pissing contest does not help. The world at large comes in these doors in the form of SO and family suddenly faced with the up-close microscopic view. We are encouraged to communicate - communicate - communicate. Yet we don't have the right words, because we can not agree on the language to begin to explain what is going on for us at any particular time. The topic is so broad.

As far as label definitions go, I like the wikipedia topics starting with the wiki Transgender site. As marla01 demonstrated above, there as so many label variations that is is now impossible for get any consensus on interpretation without some organized process, and though not perfect, wiki does a good job.

Labels do not have to be political, they can be functional, and useful to help us ourselves understand how we fit in the broad spectrum. While many in the transgender community don't care to be labeled, there are those around us that have a vested interest in a better understanding of the reality.

For example, would it not in fact be easier to provide support for the OP, whose purpose in posting, i assume, was to help understand herself better rather than make a political statement, if we all had a more common understanding of the language.