PDA

View Full Version : The Intersexed



Topaz
05-26-2005, 10:47 PM
To give you a clue as to why I am posting this. I want to provoke some thought on this subject and to perhaps educate and learn.

I found out recently that my husband was born intersexed. His parents didn't wait to see whether he would lean toward female or male. He was "assigned" to male by surgury when he was an infant. It didn't take. He was beaten as a child if he displayed his female side in any way. He tells me that he doesn't remember his father ever hitting him with an open hand, it was always a closed fist.

Recently after he spent some time talking to his mother and asking painful questions she revealed to him that he was born intersexed. He told her they chose wrong. He's still revealing things to me slowly. I don't know yet if he has told his mother about his cross dressing or not. Or what ever got him to ask the questions to her that he did. I guess that will come in time.

It has brought new understanding and depth for me. I find I love him even more today than I did a month ago.

I know that this is not the reason most of you ladies dress. It may only be my husband who dresses for this reason, I don't know yet. My husband knows I plan on posting this, he supports me in this although his and my fear is the unknown reaction that will happen when I post this. (Sounds familiar doesn't it?) I'm hoping it will be positive.


My daughter wrote this and I find it very insightful. I have her permission to post this where ever I want.

Hugs,
Topaz

... now to tackle a closeted discussion.

There has been much publicity on Gay culture, Gay lifestyle, Gay rights, Gay community and so on. The Gay Community is identified as GLBT... Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgendered (a package term for transvestites and transexuals). However, the problem here is the community left in the closet and the unasked questions only recently begining to come to light about some individuals in the "Transgendered" community. The problem I refer to here is the one of the intersexed or more commonly known as the hermaphrodite community.

Most of you will know that hermaphrodites are born with sexual organs of both male and female, to varying degrees and levels of functioning. Since the birth of cosmetic surgery, those born with this variation have been submitted to a process of gender assignment. That is, the parents and doctor decide which set of organs to remove and which gender the child is to become and consequently be raised as. Often, this is a relatively easy decision as one "set" of genitals is often more developed than the other, ie. a child with a fully formed female reproductive system, but also with a small penis instead of the normal clitorus. However, there are the OTHER cases... the children born with both "sets" of organs developed and working... leaving the parents to choose if they prefer to raise a boy or girl. After this decision is made, the cosmetic surgeon operates and presto... the baby becomes a "normal" boy or girl and is sent off with the parents to be raised as such. End of story?? Perhaps not...

Now how are these hermaphroditic children created in the first place??? This is a really interesting question and the research on the develpoment of fetesus has come up with some answers (theories... not certain.) that raises a whole new brood of ideas and questions about human sexuality. We all know the process is started with egg and sperm unite and make a cell which multiply... that's the easy part. However, research has brought up that ALL fetuses are originally FEMALE (remember, we all have an X chromosone... see how this might mess with people's perception of sexuality??? one could argue that by this nature we should all be bisexual... and yes, the argument has been made.)... at some point in development the Y chromosone kicks in causing the female internal organs to theoretically drop and continue developing but as male organs from this point on. Now, consider that a penis is really an enlarged clitorus, and the testes are the equivalant of ovaries. Hermaphrodites are genetically coded with XXY chromosones, as compared to our XX or XY chromosones... thus causing the fetus to develop 2 sets of organs, the Y chromosone causes one set to develop as male and the other set stays female.

Still with me here??? Ok, now after the gender assignment surgery has taken place and the child has been sent home, most parents of these children will raise the child by a strict ideation of male/ female roles, ie. dresses and dolls vs. pants and trucks. (Whew us "normal" kids thought we had it rough if we wanted a toy for the other gender??? Not at all!!) During this upbringing, the parents also have to make sure to take the child to regular appointments to the doctor to make sure the child gets the hormones needed to keep them developing in the "right" direction and thus repressing any contrary effects nature might bring in. Let's say simply that this process can make puberty a very rough and extremely confusing time... particularily if hormone treatments and nature really decide to battle this one out!!! Also, this is the time sexual identity begins to establish itself.

Now if all goes as planned, the child grows up into a "normal", "straight" adult. However... what if they made the wrong choice???

We all know that there is a "disorder" called Gender Identity Crisis (re: Boys Don't Cry... great movie!!). But the question that arises is how many of the people afflicted with this "disease" or transvestitism and transsexualism for that matter were originally born hermaphrodites??? Not all, of course by any means or implications, however as a largely unexplored subject that seems to be purposefully left waaaay back in the closet, the implications of just such a senario are too large to ignore. So where are the questions?? Where is the research??? Has there been any tracking of these children into the adult years?? I ask these questions because over the last few months it has come to my attention that some of the "transgendered" community have been discovering, through much asking and prodding, and occasionally fighting, that they were born as hermaphrodites... and their parents chose wrong.

This revalation brings up the question of hermaphrodites rights. Should they have the right to reassign their physical gender identity? Why should they be labeled as transsexual if they choose to do so??Should it be made easier to change the necessary paperwork for these individuals to adopt their true identities as the gender of their choice or in actuality, nature?? Should parents have the right to assign a gender to their newborn hermaphrodite child? Should the child have the right for the surgery to be left undone until the child is old enough to clearly establish their gender (most of us are clearly more boyish or girlish by age 5) or even until their teens when they would be most able to make an informed choice? Should parents have the right to surgically alter any childs genitals for reasons other than necessity??? (Consider this one carefully... it not only covers the removal of a girl's clitorus as a Somalian religious/ cultural practice, but also the removal of a boy's foreskin as standard accepted practice here in the US, though most families who opt for this do not have the reasoning of culture or religious beliefs to back up this practice unlike the Jews.)

So why is it exactly, that the gay community has chosen to leave this one in the closet, rather than bringing it out into the open and fighting for the rights of these individuals as a matter of course... or even as a service to some of the transgendered community who have discovered that this is an inescapable part of their lives?? Can those of us who fight to promote the rights of the gay community feel we are doing our best in this field without also fighting for the rights of the hermaphrodite or intersexed community??? Shouldn't they be included as well???

I, for one choose to fight for the equal treatment and rights of all people on this planet (or other planets, if anyone from them arrive...), as such I feel this is a subject that has been kept in the closet long enough and should no longer be ignored. Will you choose to help in this struggle??

P.S. For a really good reading on gender assignment and the Nature vs. Nurture argument, read As Nature Made Him... it discusses some of these
points, though it is not about an intersexed individual.

"This is a post I made in a group I go on... I plan on posting it on other groups as well... feel free to post it wherever you wish. Much love,"

DonnaT
05-26-2005, 11:57 PM
One of my basic arguments regarding nature vs nurture refers to the intersexed. That being, if one can be both genetically male and female as the occurrance of both male and female organs are present, then why is it impossible to believe that the brain can also be genetically male and female. Afer all the brain is the biggest sexual organ we have.

I wonder, if someone being XXY, and presenting as a gay male tried to marry an XY gay male, how that would affect a judicial review if the marriage was denied and they took it to court. Could the XXY male change his birth certificate based on having two X chromosomes, a current requirement for proving you are female?

All these "moralistic" laws being considered are clearly, IMO, discriminatory as such a case as I've outlined shows.

Topaz
05-27-2005, 12:41 AM
I agree with you totally DonnaT. It brings a question to my mind as to how the "law" would consider my marriage. Seeing as he is intersexed would the "law" see it that I am married to a "female" or a "male" because of the XXY thing? Would anyone who really wanted to, try to invalidate my marriage based on chromosones even though on the outside we look like a male, female couple?

Yet on the other hand, in my illogical logic, either choice he would make it could be considered a heterosexual choice, because he is intersexed. Yet it could also be considered a homosexual/lesbian choice because he is intersexed. (I'm using choice for a lack of a better word. I do not believe that someone choses their sexuality it just is.)

Hugs,
Topaz

Stlalice
05-27-2005, 07:15 AM
Topaz,

You are correct in you observations and you deserve a big hugg for understanding and staying with your husband and helping him/her decide what to do with his/her life. I'm using dual pronouns here because I gather from your post that you both are still in the process of deciding how to proceed. May I make one recomendation ? If you have not already done so, that you find a good therapist that specializes in gender issues. There aren't many of them out there but finding one is vital. You don't want to pay for on the job training for a regular therapist to learn about gender issues with you and your husband as test subjects. If you want to PM me with where you are located I'll check the professsional listings for the IFGE in your state and forward what I find. You might also want to check out their website - the International Foundation for Gender Education - at www.ifge.org - they have materials dealing with intersex isues.

One final observation about this journey that you and your partner have embarked on. In so many ways this will be the longest and most difficult journey your partner will ever face - and your love and support will be what brings him/her through it. If he/she dicides to go through transition you will both need the support of a good therapist to help you through the times ahead. Hang in there and feel free to PM if you want to talk.

Topaz
05-27-2005, 08:55 AM
Hi Stlalice,

Thank you for your reply. I may take you up on the PM offer at some point. I appreciate your offer to help us find a thereapist. At the moment both Jamie and myself have a hard time trusting a therapist for other reasons beside his/her being intersexed. If major issues come up we will carefully seek one out. I am going to refer to Jamie as "she" because all the his/her s(he) gets too confusing.

Jamie tells me that she was forced to see a therapist around the age of 10 or 11 when her parents started the hormone treatments. She was told by the therapist that she was bad and wrong for having female tendancies. But at that time she was beginning to develop as a female. Hence the hormone treatments. Most of her violent struggles with this were in adolecence and shortly after. The fights with class mates etc. Now we are able to talk and work on the feelings she has about her past, present, and future.

Right now Jamie has no interest in transitioning. She is comfortable and happy with who she is now. She says she's too old and beat up to want to transition, broken back from a car accident, military service and all. What her goal is now is to find the blending of herself that fits who she is. She doesn't want to start to deny her male side either. Although she hasn't told all of her family, she had found support from three of us that know. I believe that this has helped her greatlly. She says it has. Right now we take one day at a time and will see what develops.

Again thank you for your reply.

Hugs,
Topaz

Stlalice
05-27-2005, 10:04 AM
Topaz,

THAT is why I recomend being so very careful about choosing a therapist. The sad and unfortunate truth is that most therapists that don't specialize in gender issues are no more knowledgeable than the rest of the world on these issues. And some will be downright abusive. This is something neither of you should have to deal with. I know several people in the CD community who have decided that transistion is not for them. Still a good therapist can be of immense help in sorting out things like your identity, issues, and feelings. Thus my offer remains open - hang in there and best of luck to both of you.

Tristen Cox
05-28-2005, 03:03 AM
I only quoted this part as it is what I thought of the most in this thread:

This revalation brings up the question of hermaphrodites rights. Should they have the right to reassign their physical gender identity? Why should they be labeled as transsexual if they choose to do so??Should it be made easier to change the necessary paperwork for these individuals to adopt their true identities as the gender of their choice or in actuality, nature?? Should parents have the right to assign a gender to their newborn hermaphrodite child? Should the child have the right for the surgery to be left undone until the child is old enough to clearly establish their gender (most of us are clearly more boyish or girlish by age 5) or even until their teens when they would be most able to make an informed choice? Should parents have the right to surgically alter any childs genitals for reasons other than necessity??? (Consider this one carefully... it not only covers the removal of a girl's clitorus as a Somalian religious/ cultural practice, but also the removal of a boy's foreskin as standard accepted practice here in the US, though most families who opt for this do not have the reasoning of culture or religious beliefs to back up this practice unlike the Jews.)

I do believe that choice of physical sex should be made once the child can establish emotionally and mentally their true sexual nature. Making a choice too early on can not only turn out wrong, it can ruin a life in the process. Creating a living creature is not a game. Most parents that happen to have a hermaphrodite baby do not have enough time after the birth(before they decide) to make an informed decission. They simply weigh the possibilities and act. But is this an educated choice? It would be best to allow the child to develope at least until five before making a very terrible mistake. Although there may be positive turn outs, perhaps the reason you won't hear about the studies and progress is because more of the cases turn out to be wrong. Thus the next issue.


Should they(the child) have the right to reassign their physical gender identity?

I think they should. For their well being and for the sake of correcting a mistake. If they were infants they had no choice in the matter. It is not their fault, but it should be their right to undo whatever has been mistakenly changed. And I don't see that they should be concidered a transsexual after that ammending.

Those are my thoughts. Clearly this is something that, for him, has gone past the point of physical correction. I only hope that in the future doctors practice different policies or reassigning gender so young.

RainyHaze GG
05-28-2005, 01:18 PM
I have posted in some other threads, about my relationship with a woman, who is TS. Although we are no longer together, we recently started talking again.

She has revealed to me that she was an intersexed child. When she was born, her parents where allowed to choose her sex. They had a boy already, so they chose her to be a girl.

From the onset of puberty to until a few years ago she had to under go hormone therapy. She stopped the therapy around six years ago. She has never thought of herself as a female.

This being, I have agreed to not refer to him as such.. It was my inability to understand, and our lack of communication, that kept us from confronting this issue years ago.

He thought his desires could be fulfilled living as a women in a relationship with another woman. But it did not, as he could not be a whole man. Also that I did not view him as such.

Largely the guilt I have for not understanding is my own, he does not blame me. But still it is very painful, to realize the hurt I have cause without knowing it.

Now he is beginning to live as a man, he is considering options including possibly SRS.

But he has told me, that the reality is that nothing can bring about the life he feels should have been.

Love,
Rainy

Lady Jayne
05-28-2005, 06:35 PM
I had heard of intersexed children and assigning gender befor but I must say I didn't realise it was so prevelant, Wow a lot of Ts/tg's feel cheated because they were born in the wrong body, but how much more difficult it must be to cope with the knowledge that you could have been a GG or indeed GB but for someone making the wrong decission.I think the only moral course of action would be to leave well alone until the child shows a natural tendancy to either sex and then do anything necessary to support the childs development into the appropriate gender.Thinking back to the nature versus nurture thread it certainly adds a lot of credence to nature side of the argument doesn't it.
Looking on the bright side if he had been brought up female you two may never have met, as someone who believes in soulmates and you two bieng as good an example of people who were meant to be together as I can think of, perhaps destany stepped in to make the right choice after all.

girlintouch
05-28-2005, 10:19 PM
I watch a show on the discovery channel and it pionted out that most doctors push for the surgury to assign on sex or the other. They told the parents that it woould be less painful for the child. In the interveiw with some of the people that it has happen to they did the same thing as they did to Jamie. I can understand what your saying because it has been put on the table and the subject has change or told they don't want it talked about. I far as i can remember I always had more female personality (so notice that people talk about it). I can understand what Jamie is going thourgh.

Hugs hon

Julie
06-14-2005, 03:24 PM
I recently saw a documentary called "Am I a boy or a girl?" (I think that was the name) and it was all about the intersexed. It's been on before but I didn't see it all the first time. One of the main characters featured was a very muscular man who's parents made the same decision as your husband's did. He has a PhD and has been very active in the study and education of intersexed people. He's been fighting a physicians group who feel making that decision at birth is the best choice.

When he talks you can tell he's a woman inside. You can see it in his eyes too. But he works our religiously and looks like a body builder. Maybe that's his way of coping. Regardless, the documentary is very compelling.

I was talking to my therapist about transitioning and the medical community and how they see things. We came to the conclusion that since the medical community is largely male and males hold their masculinity so dearly, these male doctors just can't grasp the concept that anyone with a choice would ever want to be female. From what I gathered from the documentary it seems most intersexed are made male. And the main character said he's studied hundreds of intersexed and not one of them said their parents or doctors made the right choice.

In a way, any TS is intersexed too, just not physically. But since we can't see into the mind we can't grasp this concept as well as we can when we see it physically. Therefore the typical TS has to deal with a public who thinks wanting to transition is a choice. It's not. It's a need.

I feel for your husband because I struggle with a similar issue. And I applaud you for being so supportive. I'm sure he thinks the world of you.

Joy N. Wearing
07-02-2005, 09:28 PM
:p Julie,

The name of the show was “ Is it a boy or a girl “ and yes it was a very very good show. I am also a XXY which I have just found out about, my age is 63 years old. I have always been a masculine kick ass macho man ( a slight over compensation factor ) to cover up the woman that I see every time I close my eyes. If you could only see the beautiful woman that I am, you would say to yourself, what is such a nice girl like that doing in such an ugly place, the boy ( me ) looks like a VW bug and smells like a bus. I have always dressed in feminine clothes since I was 3 years old and was also beaten for it but my mind will not let me remember any part of if it being with a stick, fist or with words. I still have the scars to prove it but you can’t see them on my body, just in my heart. Back in the stone ages ( the 40’s ) you did not have a sissy boy or you were really bad parents and you did something to make this terrible thing happen, bad bad parents. I have 6 children ( 3 adopted { I am sterile as you can guess } three from my second wife ) and as anyone who has ever had children, you know that there is no set of instructions that come with any child, you pray hard, work hard and hope that you make some correct decisions along the way as you raise them to become productive and good citizens, just like you. I do not fault them for what they did, they were ( are ) my Mom and Dad and I love them, they did the best that they could have done, just like I have with my kids. Now we know just a little more then we did back then and hopefully we can help those that will come after us.

As I seed I am 63 and had too much war, to much battle in life to ever be what I dream of being. And most of all, if I ever physically became the woman I am on the inside, I would cause so much pain in others that I could not ever bear the .

I have spent 15 months in Vietnam and I have seen carnage that will never leave my mind and sole, so how could I ever bring myself to inflict such similar pain on those of my family that I care so much for ? However, my wife is my eternal companion and my best friend and she and I ( and Joy ) are having a wonderful happy life together and it is getting better every day.

I never have told anyone that was a transsexual until about 6 months ago because I was so afraid that even my wife ( definitely my wife ) would not understand. It is hard to explain my life as an XXY and how I have had to be a Manley man all my life, it dose get a little confusing even to me but it’s me, just like a Million other transsexuals. I walk like a man, talk like a man, think like a man ßÃ* woman, I feel like a woman inside as I have sense I was 3 years old. I love the softer side of life, I love all that is feminine soft gracious and beautiful. I love life and all that it has to offer, I love my wife, my six kids and grand kids. I also I need to dress as the woman that I am. On my business / introduction card I have this saying on it, A female is a gender identity; but a Woman is feminine, soft, gracious, gentle and compassionate. Her true beauty shines brighter from within then from without, I hope to live up to it.

Your Sister
Joy N. Wearing :p

Natalie x
07-03-2005, 02:50 PM
Thanks, Topaz, for telling us about this. I for one had no idea that it was happening and that people's lives are being/have been ruined by it. May I just express love and support for you and your partner.

It is a huge issue, not because of any numbers involved, although it seems that many people are affected, but because our societies are allowing/encouraging the practice to continue. More than any other transgender issue, surely we, as a community, should unite in a campaign to highlight and fight for this cause?

JAQUELINE
07-30-2005, 03:42 AM
I cried reading this I'm still dropping tears on the keyboard Love....

Deborah
07-30-2005, 12:36 PM
Its interesting that the default sex is female. Makes you wonder why there are alot more MtF then FtM.

JAQUELINE
07-30-2005, 03:09 PM
its taken several hours to deal with this and so thankyou for raising this subject . My earliest memories are ov being x-rayed under huge noisy machines at Catterick army camp in and out of conciosness as alittle child omg it was so frightening. I remember the fear big time . gotta stop I'm crying again.
O.K. ITHINK I'M BETTER NOW. I have a friend from france and her parents chose her to be a girl" how are you about that?" oui c'est bien and she has been happy ....funnily enough she can't stand trannies. my mum loved me .died when I was 17 and hoped for the best for me as she left. It's almost enough to turn one to religion except they don't want us in their congregations. sorry to be so personal . gotta stop. crying again. bye

Rachel Ann
07-30-2005, 04:23 PM
Its interesting that the default sex is female. Makes you wonder why there are alot more MtF then FtM.
I think that it's also cultural. In Hong Kong, where the status of women is much worse than in the US or Western Europe, MtFs and FtMs are about equal in numbers.