Transitioning and Employment

[tgirlinva]

Hi -

I am thinking of transitioning more and more every day and am doing more research about it. I would like to get some information on my current employment and future potential employments.

a) Can I get fired for transitioning? I think someone once posted a link to a recent case won by a TS for not looking "manly" enough. The court said that it was illegal to make someone abide by a stereotypical gender appearance. But I'm not sure if it'd apply to me.

b) Can I apply for a new job as a woman? Do I check the "M" box or the "F" box on the application? Do I legally have to reveal my real gender? Isn't that a violation of the Employment Act prohibiting a job decision based on race, gender, or sexual orientation?

Thank you.

Kim

[markie v]

Good questions, same prediciment here too and looking for same answers.

[Mariah]

a: depends on the state your in. here in WV yes. we are a at will fire state.

b: legal doc's must have your legal sex, gender you can be what you want. I put M for sex and F for gender on the aps I put in. This is what the emplyment office told me to do. (Again this is WV) they can't fire your for race,sex,religion in most states, some add gender and sexual pref. (wv is not one of them.)

* I am not always correct

hope this helped
Mariah

[Teresa Amina]

they can't fire your for race,sex,religion in most states, some add gender and sexual pref

They can, however, find a convenient excuse (such as a bad economy) to reduce staff (you!). As long as there is no overt act of bias employers in this country can do as they please unless you have a union to protect your rights.
Not trying to be negative here but it's best to not be surprised when bad things happen.

[markie v]

Is there a way to find out about Wisconsin laws?

[sandra-leigh]

a) Can I get fired for transitioning?

In most of the United States, in practice, Yes. :sad: Especially in "at-will" states.

Wisconsin: sorry, I don't have time to look in detail, but the following doesn't look hopeful:
http://www.ifge.org/Article51.phtml

Summary: Wisconsin law makes it illegal to give HRT to transgender prisoners. Illegal -- not just "difficult" and not just "requires a prescription".

[tgirlinva]

Summary: Wisconsin law makes it illegal to give HRT to transgender prisoners. Illegal -- not just "difficult" and not just "requires a prescription".

I am assuming that our friend is not incarcerated. I think the article you cited was only applicable to tgs incarcerated. The laws for others may be different. I am not an expert though.

[Mariah]

Teresa: your so right. I was fired once because the manager did not like my glasses *>_<*

Mariah

[sandra-leigh]

I am assuming that our friend is not incarcerated. I think the article you cited was only applicable to tgs incarcerated. The laws for others may be different.

Yes, I know. The point was that a legislature that makes it illegal to give hormones to incarcerated TGs is not a legislature that is TG-friendly -- and is obviously not a legislature that has passed equal-rights gender laws. That makes it pretty likely that the state in question has no specific gender-identity protections, in which case the state's "At-Will" doctrine applies.

About the only hope I've been able to find in Wisconsin is if one reads the following article in its reverse sense. The article is deploring what it sees as the potential opening of a floodgate in wrongful dismissal cases; the faint hope would be that the dismissed TG might be able to exploit that floodgate opening that the business-friendly lawyer deplores. In order to do that, the TG would have to find a specific "public policy" that their firing was in direct contravention of... probably not the easiest of things to do. :(

Wisconsin legal analysis (http://www.wisbar.org/am/template.cfm?section=wisconsin_lawyer&template=/cm/contentdisplay.cfm&contentid=49908)

[tgirlinva]

Yes, I know. The point was that a legislature that makes it illegal to give hormones to incarcerated TGs is not a legislature that is TG-friendly -- and is obviously not a legislature that has passed equal-rights gender laws. That makes it pretty likely that the state in question has no specific gender-identity protections, in which case the state's "At-Will" doctrine applies.

I could argue against this belief. I guess I would like to see the glass a little bit more full than you. Or maybe I am just naive. But I think in your article, the legislators may have seen the outlaw who happens to be a tg, rather than the tg who happens to be an outlaw. Yes, that doesn't mean that they don't have rights to what we would consider minimum care, but life isn't fair.

[aussie24tg]

In my city which is in Australia..I don't know how they would react to Trans ppl..But I do know when I was working for the Gov they can't fire you on how you look or who you are unless you have a crim record..

I've been pondering whether to tell my my manager bout my transitioning but my superviser who is on par with me is pretty rude and abusive toward crossdressers and trans ppl..I hired my best friend and he knows and works on shift with me and he accepts it..I doubt he would care if I come to work in fem mode but I'm always scared that my supervisor will drop by and give me crap..

I think on jobs..its how much your manager needs, wants you and how friendly he is toward the fact of trans ppl..You should bring it up one day just to see how he would react.

Thats my input.

[Sally24]

If this reference is accurate then it looks like there are no specific protections for gender just for sexual orientation.

http://www.lambdalegal.org/our-work/states/wisconsin.html

[Empress Lainie]

Hi -

I am thinking of transitioning more and more every day and am doing more research about it. I would like to get some information on my current employment and future potential employments.

a) Can I get fired for transitioning? I think someone once posted a link to a recent case won by a TS for not looking "manly" enough. The court said that it was illegal to make someone abide by a stereotypical gender appearance. But I'm not sure if it'd apply to me. Yes you can get fired for transitioning but a case was recently won against the library of congress who was not going to hire someone after the person said they would transition to female. This was a US Supreme Court decision. In my case I have been out of work for 14months because two people objected me introducing myself as a transgendered woman, and a tranny hater in city hall had the authority to order me fired, even though the place I was teaching did not want to do it. The EEOC has filed my case, but as of yet nothing has happened or will for a few more months.I am hoping to be able to sue the bitch that did it. She destroyed my livelihood and has illegally blackballed me from all community schools that she controls.

b) Can I apply for a new job as a woman? Do I check the "M" box or the "F" box on the application? Do I legally have to reveal my real gender? Isn't that a violation of the Employment Act prohibiting a job decision based on race, gender, or sexual orientation?

You change your name, get F on your driver license and live and apply as female. The feds seem to be willing to extend the EE Act protection to transgendered even though the law was deliberately changed to omit them. If you have a hard time passing, there are women gg's that look worse, with your F id you can blow them off. As far as I am concerned F is my REAL gender, I just have a birth defect.


Thank you.

Kim

Many states also allow you to change your birth certificate if you are living as a woman. Texas where I was born doesn't and Indiana doesn't put gender on the birth certificate.

It costs a small fee to change your birth certificate name, the gender change depends on the state.

I got my college transcript from 1963 changed to my new name and with F as gender. The lady I talked to wasn't sure she could do the gender change but they did.

Some states may not let you change your driver's license to F either.

Once you have had the full or cosmetic SRS or even orchiectomy they have to allow you to change the gender, but you need a letter from the surgeon or a doctor attesting that you are now no longer a male person. It is possible that breast implants with a letter stating simply surgery for gender change might work too.

I hope this helps you.

Lainie

[Scotty]

If you work in any kind of secure position, ie US Gov etc - they can pull your security clearance on grounds that your "Lifestyle" is different and thus you may be open to exposing something (Besides body parts)..

I've actually asked this question at an employment briefing.

For me, I'd move to Boston and start over, think my skills would get me hired somewhere, hopefully.....

[Sally24]

If you work in any kind of secure position, ie US Gov etc - they can pull your security clearance....
The quoted case before the Supreme Court involved a woman with a high security clearance that she obtained in the military and then maintained thru a civilian contractor. Since she was open about the transexual part of her background that would not leave her exposed to blackmail. I would think this would be the outcome in most if not all similar cases.

[serinalynn]

To Kim and Markie I wish you well in your quests to be ID'd as women by your employment and by the government.

[tgirlinva]

Lainie,

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel compelled to introduce yourself as a transgendered woman, rather than simply a woman? No bashing or ridiculing you here, I am just curious....

Kim

[Schatten Lupus]

A) Not directly, but yes. If your employer wants to fire you desperately enough, they will find a way to legally do so.

B) If you are still legally a male, then you will probably want to still look for work as a male. Then a potential employer can simply dismiss your application when your application and legal documents do not match up.
As far a previous employer check ups, I don't know how those work.

[Valeria]

Yes you can get fired for transitioning but a case was recently won against the library of congress who was not going to hire someone after the person said they would transition to female. This was a US Supreme Court decision.
No, it was a ruling by a US District Court judge, and it is only valid as a binding precedent upon the District of Columbia. But it is an important ruling.


Many states also allow you to change your birth certificate if you are living as a woman. Texas where I was born doesn't and Indiana doesn't put gender on the birth certificate.
Most states allow you to change your birth certificate, though notably not Ohio or Tennessee. Texas is not one of the few exceptions, people born in Texas can update their birth certificate. However, you generally must be post-op to alter your birth certificate. Also, some states don't actually issue a new, corrected birth certificate -- instead, they amend the old one (and the old information is sometimes still visible).


Some states may not let you change your driver's license to F either.
Most states do if you are post-op. A few states do if you are pre-op, such as California, which merely requires a letter from a doctor stating that such a change is appropriate.


Once you have had the full or cosmetic SRS or even orchiectomy they have to allow you to change the gender, but you need a letter from the surgeon or a doctor attesting that you are now no longer a male person. It is possible that breast implants with a letter stating simply surgery for gender change might work too.
It's unlikely, however. In particular, to change your birth certificate they generally want a very specific letter stating exactly what surgical procedure was performed. Illinois requires that the surgeon be licensed in the United States.

[Scotty]

The quoted case before the Supreme Court involved a woman with a high security clearance that she obtained in the military and then maintained thru a civilian contractor. Since she was open about the transexual part of her background that would not leave her exposed to blackmail. I would think this would be the outcome in most if not all similar cases.

I would think so if they hired you (It's a good old boys club where most are retired or ex military) in teh first place, and IF you were transitioning when they hired you.

But from experience, I just know I'd lose my job and the vast majority of military contractors are right wing type A personalities (From my experience).....

I'd be afraid for my own job but I could be wrong, sometimes they suprise me. We have a man now that transitioned from being a woman....

[Empress Lainie]

Lainie,

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel compelled to introduce yourself as a transgendered woman, rather than simply a woman? No bashing or ridiculing you here, I am just curious....

Kim

I made that mistake only once, and have been unemployed over a year, and suing the city of las vegas through the EEOC. I have no compulsion to say I am other than a woman if asked.
Many people I knew before my transition of course know.

[Suzy Harrison]

I think it really depends on the company you work for. When I told the HR Director where I work she was really supportive and we have been in close touch ever since. With this type of situation, dealing with females from a company will be a lot easier than dealing with males.

I'm sure with some employers they would look for an excuse to see you leave, others will help. In Australia you are protected by law, although if they really want to get rid of you all they have to do is re-organise the company and leave your position out.

[janelle]

WISCONSIN LAWS;
Most of them are in a gray area. For me the company I work states that I cannot be fired & worked with me to at least get a single restroom. Look at what your company policy says & if you have a union talk with them as they will become a big part in helping you.
If you wish you can pm me so we could chat more if needed, but all in all, wisconsin leaves us on our own(as of now anyways).

Janelle

[tamarav]

I have read your post a number of times and hesitated responding simply because of the number of experts on this site, but here I am.

Before I saw the light and went to beauty school and now work as a hair stylist, I spend 30 years in Human Resources, the last 19 as HR Director for some fairly large organizations. I earned my JD while working as an analyst in Human Resources.

Your question is a fair one but I think you are going at this from a fearful point of view rather than a practical one. You can't be wishy-washy about what you are going to undertake, all that does is confuse people, and we do that well enough as is.

Can you get fired for transitioning? Legally no. But it sounds like you are using that as an excuse, anybody can be fired, for virtually any lame reason, that is why we in HR work so hard to make them real reasons that will hold up in court. Instead of looking at it that way, assuming you will be fired for simply transitioning, look at it as if you are working a job you like, that you are good at and get good reviews from your boss. That is all that is needed to continue in a job. If they work hard to find a reason to fire you , ostensibly for transitioning, then they didn't work very hard.

I am not trying to be mean, just think through the process before you go and slice your throat before you even start somewhere.

Many folks transitioning have come across my desk in the past (even though I do have a soft spot for them/us) I was required to act within the legal constraints and advise their managers on their work behaviors, not their dress.

Can you apply for a job as a woman? As opposed to a guy dressing up looking for a job? If you are a woman, you are a woman, period. I am not talking about physical stuff here, if you identify as a woman, then go with it and work with it, not against it. Dress appropriately, get all the credentials you can, support your femininity without relapses into male territory, and move forward. I had a number of transitioning personnel that got hired, learned the job, put their heads down and did the job and no one said anything aobut them. One actually ended up marrying one of the VPs at a company after her SRS.

If you are a militant transitioning person, no telling what will happen to you. No body wants to have somebody in their face, for any reason. And if you go in and threaten to make trouble if you don't get this or that, forget ever going in, you won't be there long. Reasons to fire are easy, even with an employment contract or a union. It just costs the company more time and money.

I didn't mean to ramble here but you have to simply step back and realize that even though transitioning is YOUR thing, others may not either care for it or give a rat's ass what you are doing. But pushing it into their faces will do nothing but put them on the defensive and make them work at firing you. I advised in the termination of a Hospital Executive Director that cost the company $6.4 million to pay off an employment contract, they didn't care what the cost was, they just wanted the person gone, anybody can be fired.

Quietly do your research, we are not legal advisors (at least not anymore). Read everything you can about the subject, become the best expert you can because in the end you have to rely on you, not what any of us have to say. We could lead you right down the path only to have you fired for showing too much cleavage.

End of rambling.