CDers better than GGs

[ReineD]

I've read many comments in this forum from CDers who believe they or other CDers look better than (some, many, most?) GGs. There is a thread in the picture gallery right now from a new, young, beautiful CDer who also thinks this way. Although I realize that not all CDers agree, it does seem as if the sentiment is expressed on a regular basis.

This thread is NOT about whether the CDers who believe this are right or wrong. I do not pass judgment nor am I offended in any way by the statements. I have noticed that the opinion is generally stated without malice. Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.

I am more curious as to why a CDer finds herself or another CDer more attractive, more feminine, or in any other way better than a GG, given a comparison between similar ages and attractiveness factor. Is it the better or more feminie clothes and attention to details such as makeup, hair, nails, or accessories?

An explanation might be ego although in most instances I do not sense this is the case. Might it instead be a matter of not comparing apples to apples? There are clearly individuals who, by societal standards, are more attractive than most people. Would there be a comparison of these individuals to the average person who is less physically endowed?

Or is it something deeper? The CDer who strives for and achieves her personal ideal of feminine beauty? Might it be that when en femme there is such a vast improvement, in her eyes, over the guy mode that the beauty factor is magnified?

Please, let's not turn this thread into a debate as to whether CDs "should" or "shouldn't" believe themselves to be more attractive or better than GGs. We all have the right to set our own beauty standards and to believe what we will for self-validation and to increase self-confidence.

I am simply interested in reading your opinions as to why or what it is that some CDers feel is better. Thank you!
:hugs:

[Angie G]

I don't look all that great as a woman and don't try to compete. I can say I've seen some ugly woman out there not even makeup would help.:hugs:
Angie

[vivianann]

I do not believe I am better looking or more feminine than a GG, a GG can always out do us in looks and femininity. What I try to do is, achieve the feminine look as best I can, but I will not compare myself to a GG. I like to compare my feminine look to that of my male self. I believe I look better as a woman than a man. I saw the thread you are talking about, the young cder does look good in her pics, but I dont like the part where she is comparing herself to GG's. I do believe she is better looking than most of us mtf cders in this forum. my:2c: worth. I do love the way GG's give compliments to me when I am crossdressed out in public. Even though I do not pass as a woman, I have alot of self confidence and it seems to go along way to being accepted by peaple when I am out in public as Vivian.

[sara_also]

Personally I do not, and never will, belive any cd,er could be better than any gg. I will not go into details. You have asked us not to get into this too deeply. IMPO I would like to award any one that belives they are better than someone else a big prize. ( Here's their sign ). Just my :2c:

[Karren H]

Beats me... I don't consider enfemme self any better than anyone other than my non-enfemme self!!.. Ok... Better's not a good word... Prettier!! :)

[suzy cool]

Reine, in order to understand the reason for the statements by some CDs , you need to focus on their values and what it is that they are actuially holding up for comparison.
You're pretty much on the right track from what you have written, about clothing and makeup, and that they aren't actually comparing like with like as far as genetic looks are concerned.

There is an idealism associated with CDing that is all part of what makes us do it in the first place. It's a mental image we have of 'femininity' and it's often expressed as a very dressy (:heehee:) version of the average woman. Long hair, high heels, nails, makeup and so on.

So the statement "I look better" is actually referring to the fact that their own image of femininity, in their eyes, is nearer the mark than the average woman going about her daily tasks. If you compare the average woman around town in 1950's America, compared to now...Which, in your opinion would you think a CD (and even women) would vote for as looking more beautiful, well groomed and feminine? Well those are the same sort of idealised values being used when a CD thinks they look fantastic and compare themselves to a GG. It's not quite as vain as it comes across, but more to do with what they are valuing.

[ReineD]

:yt: That makes sense, thanks! :)

[Sarah...]

Well those are the same sort of idealised values being used when a CD thinks they look fantastic and compare themselves to a GG. It's not quite as vain as it comes across, but more to do with what they are valuing.

That's a good synopsis. I would only add that I think it's not just related to CD self-perceptions. Values such as those you are discussing can be seen in many individuals - male comparing to male, female to female, male to female, female to male, het to gay, gay to het etc etc (and any other binary set of descriptors you might choose, in fact).

In the rarefied atmosphere of this forum where, for some, "passing" is such an important part of their journey, such perceptions and values can take on an enhanced sensitivity that may not really be there (no more so than everyday life) and also may actually just not have been written about clearly enough in the fractured method of communication we employ to be able to talk to each other across various time zones and cultures.

Sarah...

[MJ]

i can't understand why some girls say that after all it's so very clear that they don't pass. 96% never will pass when will the young one's learn it's not about fooling themselves in to thinking they do . more about accepting themselves.

And before i get crap over my statement remember where we are crossdressers.com

[ChristineRenee]

Well I think that there are probably a number of reasons. I do believe that some CDers feel that some GG's take their looks, clothes, makeup, femininity, etc. for granted, and so I think that kind of bugs them because they can't be that way themselves and still look feminine in public. I also think that some are jealous in a catty type of way the way some GG's are of other GG's. I think there is some validity to that sentiment as well. Because some GGs want to sort of "compete" with others, Cders in turn want to "compete" with GG's...especially when they feel that some GG's are very lax or just don't care how they look or present themselves in public.

I think many CDers can achieve the feminine look...to whatever degree they are capable of...and probably easier than trying to actually BE feminine 24/7, because IMO, being truly feminine is a lot more than just the clothes and make-up, and the taking of a dozen or more posed pics of yourself to get that one "ideal" one to post on a forum. It's an attitude that comes from within and is projected outward. Some have more of it than others too. Aside from that...I still think it's rare that a CDer can outdo a GG in femininity unless that GG either doesn't care at all about being feminine and just doesn't try, or perhaps is maybe a transman and is just more naturally masculine in their manner and demeanor.

Just my :2c:

[Jonianne]

I've read many comments in this forum from CDers who believe they or other CDers look better than (some, many, most?) GGs. There is a thread in the picture gallery right now from a new, young, beautiful CDer who also thinks this way. Although I realize that not all CDers agree, it does seem as if the sentiment is expressed on a regular basis...........I am simply interested in reading your opinions as to why or what it is that some CDers feel is better. Thank you!
:hugs:

Hi Reine,

Any MtF CD that feels its necessary to think and state that they are better looking than GG's is probably way too full of themselves and has no idea that the most prized female beauty is in her heart of gentleness, kindness, sensitivity and love. And that is something we all can strive for - both male and female.

Maybe I am missing it, but I don't see many cd'ers making that kind of comparasion (I could be wrong). I see a lot saying (and I've said it as well) that someone else may look just like a female, particularly in a current picture thread, but not better looking than a woman. Of course there are some regulars who think that, but they are few. As to why they feel that is necessary, who knows. I don't believe most CD'ers think that at all. Women have a beauty, both inside and out, that we MtF's CD'ers can't touch.

[Alys]

I don't understand why I ought not compare myself "in the same league" as genetic females. They're born rather androgynous, and only become pretty young ladies through nurture and hormonal development :3 The former I can't match with naught but power of will for who I am, but the latter I feel to have corrected~
So why shouldn't I be able to say "Hey, I'm cuter than that genetic girl over there"? :X I work hard on my image, I ought to be allowed a little conceit now and again.

[MsJanessa]

I'm much more attracted to pretty CDs then to GGs but least attracted to men---CD's I enjoy in a mutual pleasure with Me on top role---GG's the same and men, well they have to serve Me--I don't give their pleasure a second thought:dom:

[Diane CHILDS]

The truth is that with the exception of a few TS's who have transistioned early in life, the vast majority of t-girls do not pass. Don't be fooled by pictures...... I have met scores of t-girls who look gorgeous and passable in photographs but don't look so good convincing when you meet them in person.

A lot of self delusion goes on in this communtity, that doesn't mean that a t-girl who puts in a lot of effort can't look better than a genetic girl who doesn't. Looking good and being 100% passable are two different things.

For many it is kind of a hobby and we spend ages selecting outfits and doing make up. I'm sure if I was a genetic girl I wouldn't send half the time of effort on my appearence in public (for the majority of the time anyway) ..... I would probablly just chuck on a pair of jeans and the bare minimum of make up and slob it with the rest of them. BUT because I only go out dressed in public on average once or twice a month, I do put an effort in and I do get many compliments from genetic females (often in ladies rest rooms in straight establishments).:o

In these situations I am "not passing" the women are aware that I'm not genetically female but often say very nice things about my appearence..... which is a heartwarming thing and reasures me that I'm doing something right. :)

[battybattybats]

I think for some it's from a desperate need to have the inner girl acknowledged and actualised.

The links between crossdressers and transexuals are IMO far stronger than many believe with a lot of people in between to varying degrees.

For some i think this kind of statement is required because if they couldn't find a way to be satisfied with that, if they felt that CDing was not working sufficiently then they'd end up needing to start to transition to deal with the gender dysphoria.

It's also true that there are many GG's that are quite masculine and i think many of these CDs are comparing themselves to these masculine women and considering that they look closer to the 'average' woman than many masculine women.

That this causes conflict revelas how shallow peoples views on gender is on both sides, from the comments which can sometimes devalue masculine women as not feminine enough to those who get upset that a CD can consider themselves more beautiful or feminine than a GG.

Once again Transgender proves useful to revealing sexism in much of society.

After all why should it be bad if a CD or CD's actually were more womanly than many GG's? Isn't this showing us all how much masculine women are devalued both by men, CD's and other women?

I have several masculine women friends. Two have outright told me when they saw me dressed that they thought I looked more female than they do. Their opinion not mine. They are wonderful people. They are attractive. We should celebrate the masculine women as much as the feminine ones! We should celebrate the diversity of masculinity and femininity amongst men and women.

And thats not mentioning the FtM guys most of whom in my opinion are far more handsome and masculine men than I am when I'm in my guy appearance.

And I see that as a good thing.

[Inachis]

I believe it would be silly to think that any man dressed in woman's clothing would look better than a woman dressed in women's clothing.

But, in keeping in the spirit of the post I think that it has more to do with pride than anything else. All of us work very hard in order to look our best. Sometimes I think this transfers over, and some of us think that we are the quintessential version of femininity. I have never thought of myself as a better girl than a girl. But, sometimes I know that I look really hot.

This can easily be stated by others as "I am hotter than any other female I've seen". At this point that may be true. In one's minds eye they are hotter than any other female, but deep down inside they know that its an illusion. Beauty is way more about being comfortable with who you are, rather than how good you look.

But, then isn't beauty an illusion? Is not beauty in the eye of the beholder. What we see is what we want to see. It is one's perception of the world that makes up their environment. So in the end does it really matter whether or not one thinks that they are more attractive than the real item? Or rather does it matter that they are more comfortable with looking female, then most female?As we all know women have a vast bit of insecurity about themselves.

So I think that it comes down to pride. I think it comes down to owning yourself, and knowing what you want out of life. I think it is what it is.:2c:

[DameErrant]

There is such a wide variation in men's and women's appearances, it is inevitible that some men look more beautifull than some women will. There are many in my support group that are much cuter than most of the women that I see on the street.

Of course, the CDs put in more effort, since they know they do not start out with the natural advantage of being a GG, and when we go out in public it is a special occassion, not just daily routine. (At least not for me!)

My wife is sometimes jealous of me because she thinks that when I am all done up to the nine's, I am prettier than her. I remind her that I have more control over how I chose to look, (breast forms, corsets, wigs, etc.,) but that only mollifies her for a while.:doll:

Just as an aside, have you noticed how many leg shots there are on the average crossdressers web site? I think we emphasis them, because of all the "beauty" that we show, they are the parts that are the most real! No padding or corestry there!

[Nicole Erin]

I am more curious as to why a CDer finds herself or another CDer more attractive, more feminine, or in any other way better than a GG, given a comparison between similar ages and attractiveness factor. Is it the better or more feminie clothes and attention to details such as makeup, hair, nails, or accessories?



OK we shall stick to that subject -
I don't think I look better than very many GG's, maybe a couple out there who are really gross but I am no beauty queen. Even tho the photo I take are crap, I feel like I look beautiful while dressed up. With that out of the way -

A few really beautiful CDs are better looking than most GG's, at least while en femme. Not just with the looks but a beautiful looking CD normally does not have the attitude of a hot looking GG. In fact I have told some CDs how they are knock-outs and you know what they say? They often explain all their faults. "Well I have this and that going on so I doubt I fool anyone..." They can be humble.

Thing is, even the best looking CDs are just normal looking guys out of femme. Some are handsome but seldom feminine and pretty, even if they are it is just a little. So GGs need not worry, the CDs are not taking over the beauty scene. :brolleyes:

[docrobbysherry]

:straightface:I can only speak for myself, and GUESS about other CDs. CDs r mostly men, remember!

A lot of it has to do with men liking women that look sexy and attractive! Men r visually stimulated. It is said, much more so than women. Then, there's the "pride", and "kink" factors that may be involved.

Altho I know the female images I create r mostly smoke and mirrors, what I SEE, appears to be an attractive, sexy woman! My favorite images, r the ones I find the MOST attractive and sexy! Compared to the 50+ y/o GGs I date, I find Sherry to be much more attractive! Even tho I know she is nothing more than a sexy manikin. Visually, for me, GGs of that age can't compete with her!:o

Then, I know I, as well as many other CDs, take some pride in our appearence! Spending uncounted hours buying just the rite women's clothes and gear. Learning how to wear it, make it all match and look good. Learning how to apply makeup properly. Many GGs DON'T appear to put much effort into their looks. Whether they do or not, isn't important. It's the result that counts to men!:daydreaming:

Lastly, is something that may be hard to explain to u. I'll just call it the kinky benefit to CDing. You've worked for hour(s), now your female image is complete. U look in the mirror. The male image your used to seeing your whole life is gone! An attractive female is looking back at me! That is such an exciting moment! Then, it gradually dawns on me, that female IS ME! I STILL find that difficult to comprehend after all these years.:eek:

Maybe some of this will help answer your question, maybe not. I do know that however attractive Sherry appears to me, there's no comparing her to a real GG in any other way!:straightface:

[Diane CHILDS]

I believe it would be silly to think that any man dressed in woman's clothing would look better than a woman dressed in women's clothing.




I can tell from that comment that you haven't spent much or any time in Thailand or many other areas in Malaysia or Indonesia. :heehee:

Try a vacation in Pattaya .... a very high percentage of the really good looking women that you'll see are what I guess you'd describe as "men" ie non op. / orchiectomy.

Get real, there are even very good looking trannies in western countries and plenty of butt ugly women, who take no pride in their appearence.

Di

[2b.Lauren]

Nothing absolutely nothing is more beautiful than the female form both inside and out. There is nothing more beautiful on this planet. Wanting to feel that way and to see myself that way has been something that I think keeps me dressing in the first place. Maybe it is that the only way CD's can come close is when our clothes are on, because all GG's got us when we get naked. Here I am talking again about the pure female form. In my own way mentally and emotionally I know I am closer to that female being that lives inside me than I am to the genetic male being I am, but I need all the beautification tricks, tips, clothes, and help I can get to allow me to transform into being able to match up to that beauty. Could that be the need for comparison, not sure. Just a few ideas.

Thanks,
Lauren

[Diane CHILDS]

Thing is, even the best looking CDs are just normal looking guys out of femme. Some are handsome but seldom feminine and pretty, even if they are it is just a little. So GGs need not worry, the CDs are not taking over the beauty scene. :brolleyes:

In my experience a high percentage of the best looking Caucasian trannies/ CD's aren't "normal" looking guys out of femme ..... many look "slightly built" and sometimes even a look a bit geeky as men, but because of their build and lack of strong facial features esp. jaw, brow line and nose..... they can look far better as women.

Quite a few of the best looking trannies that I know fall into this category, they look gorgeous as women and are always getting chatted up by men (sometimes straight men) when they are out, but find it really difficult to raise any interest in women (or men for that matter) when in drab.

A good friend who regularly does photo shoots for t-mags, has spoken to me about this at length and even started threads about it on other forums that I belong to.

Di

[Melinda G]

Some CDers look better than women, some don't. The way I see it though, is that we are coming at it from a male viewpoint. We know what we like, and what turns us on. Many women just don't give a damn.
I've been single a long time, and know a lot of women. I am amazed how many women just take a shower, pull on some slacks and a top, blow their hair dry, and go out to a dance. Then every now and then, these same women will show up in a dress and heels, and makup, looking really good, usually when they are trying to attract some guy. Next time I see them, they are back to their don't give a damn, drab look!
Most CDers however, know what we like, and are into heels, nylons, short dresses, and makup, and looking good. You just don't see many CDers wearing slacks, clunky macho looking shoes, short hair, etc. Why would we.

[Deborah Jane]

I,ll answer your question with a question Reine....

How can a c/der look better than the perfection we love, admire and are trying to emulate?

In my opinion whenever a GG puts the same amount of effort into her appearance as a c/d, [i.e. for an evening out, etc] the GG will be better everytime!

There is something a GG will always have that we can never hope to aquire...Natural femininity!!

Just my personal opinion, no offence meant to anyone who disagrees!

[charlie]

Deborah, for a dumb blond you are right on the money. Natural feminity is something that we just do not possess. Even the CD's that put lots and lots of time to outfits, voice, walk and body language miss the mark...we are just actors. Some better then others though. I think (as others have said) that the CD being more feminine then a GG stems from what they wear on an ongoing basis. A CD usually wears dressy clothes, makeup and heels everytime they dress; whereas GG's get dressed up only when necessary for them. You true ladies have a life to live, we are in our own dreamworld!

[Inachis]

I can tell from that comment that you haven't spent much or any time in Thailand or many other areas in Malaysia or Indonesia. :heehee:

Try a vacation in Pattaya .... a very high percentage of the really good looking women that you'll see are what I guess you'd describe as "men" ie non op. / orchiectomy.

Get real, there are even very good looking trannies in western countries and plenty of butt ugly women, who take no pride in their appearence.

Di

How can the fake look better than the real? We try to emulate women, but we aren't women. Yes there are trannies out there that have "the look". SO WHAT! Unless one owns ones look one will never look better than a GG no matter how "butt ugly" the GG. Something that I think most people forget is that we aren't females, we try our best to create a pleasant feminine exterior.

By the way, the "girls" in Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia (very few in Indonesia) dress like females because it is economically rewarding to be a prostitute, not because they have a desire to dress like a woman.They lack the cultural stigma against CD'ing that us westerners have. Hence it is easier to be a man dressed in female clothing, and be more confident when they are out in the world.

Also a lesson in Geography might do you a bit of good. Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia are three (3) different countries.

[Nicki B]

IMHO, the qualities of real beauty come from inside a person.

Whether people are beautiful does not relate, surely, to if they're male, female, or trans. Or what they may be wearing?? :strugglin

[Diane CHILDS]

get real, we live as we see fit without a need to present as something we are not :Angry3::Angry3:

What is this supposed to mean??

I'm not a mind reader.

I don't know if you a natal female or a t-girl and I can see nothing on your profile page to clarify..... if I did know it would give me a clue which way to take it.

Many trannies (me included) are not "presenting as something they are not" ..... they are displaying the true person they are inside !! :Angry3::Angry3:

[Jonianne]

..........I can see nothing on your profile page to clarify..... if I did know it would give me a clue which way to take it........


Check the public usergroups on her profile page.

[Diane CHILDS]

By the way, the "girls" in Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia (very few in Indonesia) dress like females because it is economically rewarding to be a prostitute, not because they have a desire to dress like a woman.They lack the cultural stigma against CD'ing that us westerners have. Hence it is easier to be a man dressed in female clothing, and be more confident when they are out in the world.

Also a lesson in Geography might do you a bit of good. Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia are three (3) different countries.

I've seen plenty of t girls in Indonesia ..... especially Bali. They are not as obvious in other parts of the country because of Islamic culture, but there are many in Bali which is 90% + Hindu.

Your comment about there being so many t-girls in these countries NOT because they have a desire to dress like or be women BUT because they wish to earn a living from prostitution is totally wrong and quite ignorant. There are t-girl prostitutes but the assertion that they are all on the game, is an insult to many I know personally who are just like us.

I am well aware that Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia are 3 different countries.... and didn't state otherwise, I said " Thailand or many other areas in Malaysia or Indonesia.

I was in Penang (Malaysian island), Kuala Lumpur (capital) and Singapore in April/May this year, (BTW Singapore is another independent country in case you didn't know. :)

Di

[Sarah...]

Hmmmmm. No-one has exclusive rights to femininity just as no-one has exclusive rights to masculinity. And even if they did, before anyone could claim such rights they would have to be able to define those terms first. They are such nebulous terms when one tries to define them that it becomes logically impossible so to do.

I would re-iterate my support of Suzy's synposis in post No. 6. There is a big component of personal values at play in this area and to re-iterate my subsequent point, it's not limited to CDers comparing themselves to GGs. Because they are personal values, they are difficult to support in general.

It would be interesting to try and prove conculsively that someone was actually presenting themselves as something they are not or indeed to prove conclusively that no GM could ever be as "feminine" as a GW. Interesting but likely futile.

Sarah...

[valenstein]

I find that several comments in this thread show a lack of beauty, regardless of gender.

[darla_g]

I find the whole discussion somewhat amusing as if it is some kind of contest (a beauty contest?)

why would CDs make such a statement? I think it might be interpreted as we like when you get dressed up, do your hair and put on some makeup.:gorgeous:

[MJ]

lets just remember to be respectful
another perspective on this if i may you see Reine. i can see beauty in cd'r some are gorgeous i can respect that but when i have been around t-girls for some time i tend to forget there cd'r i only see the women my gender lines blur but i don't think cd'r are better but sometime equal too gg

[Diane CHILDS]

I find that several comments in this thread show a lack of beauty, regardless of gender.

So ......

We have a crossdresser who apparently puts all natal females on a pedestal and thinks that kathoeys in the east, aren't like us at all! They don't want to be women and just dress like that to work as prostitutes!! The reality is that many kathoeys work in traditionally feminine occupations, in shops, coffee bars,restaurants, beauty salons and hairstylists. Talk about stereotyping! :rolleyes:


We then have a natal female with lots of vacumous friends (do you mean vacuous?) who sees t-girls as "presenting as something they are not" Like fancy dress I suppose!! :strugglin

And there is myself who has the temerity to point out that some natal females have no pride in their appearance and are (in my view) ugly, where as some t girls look quite nice. :doh:

Sorry if it offends some here, but I'm English and I like to use plain English. The first definition of "ugly" in my Oxford English Dictionary reads .....1) unpleasant in appearance.

I agree much beauty also comes from within, but don't mistake internal beauty for fluffy bunny attitudes , prejudice or ill informed points of view, and don't mistake plain speaking for internal ugliness.

At times attitudes here really crack me up :heehee:

at other times they make me sad :sad:


At the and of the day we are all people and I hate all these pigeon holes CD, TV, TG, TS, GG we would get on much better without them. The original statement made by the young member here and the question posed by this thread is divisive. There is no more point to it than saying "blondes are more beautiful than brunettes." .... beauty is in the eye of the beholder some t girls are pretty and feminine , some natal women are butch and manly.

So be true to yourself, and get on with life. It will be all over before you know it.

Di x :love:

[Holly]

Reine, I want to thank you for what you are trying to do here. It is a shame that some still feel compelled to turn this into another one of those, "We're As Good Or Better Than Them" threads. What's the purpose of making that judgment? What qualifies you to be a judge of that anyway? What do you gain by doing so?

Wouldn't your energies be better spent in making yourself the best you that you can be? Gender has absolutely nothing to do how you treat others. There's nothing wrong with admiring your own or someone else's skills in presenting themselves or any natural attributes they may have. But holding yourself up to comparison to others is only going to lead to disappointment... there will always be someone taller, skinner, prettier, or whatever than you. Be the best YOU that there will ever be! That's a contest you will always win.

[ChristineRenee]

Deborah, for a dumb blond you are right on the money. Natural feminity is something that we just do not possess. Even the CD's that put lots and lots of time to outfits, voice, walk and body language miss the mark...we are just actors. Some better then others though. I think (as others have said) that the CD being more feminine then a GG stems from what they wear on an ongoing basis. A CD usually wears dressy clothes, makeup and heels everytime they dress; whereas GG's get dressed up only when necessary for them. You true ladies have a life to live, we are in our own dreamworld!QFT and it puts it in perspective. We are still...at best here...illusionists. Nothing wrong with that at all. We should embrace and enjoy the outward expression of our inward femininity as much as possible. It's why we do it and why we come here for support and friendship. It really shouldn't be a competition. GGs have enough to deal with when it comes to "competing" with their own. Is it really necessary for us to "challenge" them in their own arena? Is that really what we as CDers and transgendered people are all about? :sad:

[suzy cool]

You have to admit it was a superbly disguised troll thread.
:heehee:
Who'd have guessed it would end in an argument?

[Sarah...]

Is it really necessary for us to "challenge" them in their own arena? Is that really what we as CDers and transgendered people are all about? :sad:

Why are we in different arenas? Why so polarised? Check post number six again. I think it answered the original question very well indeed.

:sad::sad::sad:

Sarah...

[ReineD]

Thank you all so very much for your responses! :hugs:

There certainly is a wide range of opinions, but this is not surprising. For those of you whose buttons got pushed, I am sorry. I did not intend this thread to become a contest or a debate. I just wanted to gain a better understanding of where some attitudes come from.

All of the following viewpoints are valid:

Some of you don't feel you pass (as well as other CDers) and you do not feel you come close to looking like a GG.

Some of you recognize that you may have more androgynous features, and may easily compare yourselves to an average GG.

Some of you do acknowledge that sometimes comparisons are made between the more feminine looking CDers and the more masculine looking GGs, so it is a case of comparing apples to oranges. In these cases, perhaps it would be more correct to acknowledge the difference in priorities or physical attributes rather than say one is better than the other.

The overwhelming response is that most of you spend the time and work hard at looking feminine, perhaps more so than the average GG, especially if she has a wash & wear hairstyle, wears no make-up and does not make clothing her priority. I wholeheartedly agree that you are to be proud of your accomplishments and you are entitled to feel good about your own 'wow' factor. For you, the comparison has more to do with appreciating the time, effort, and wearing the more feminine clothing styles than anything else.

I do agree that some CDs, just as some GGs, or regular guys for that matter, are sizzling hot, even if they should wear a burlap bag! There is no physical comparison between these few individuals and the rest of us mortals. :) But, please, please, those of you who say some GGs are butt ugly, or gross, please would you find a more tactful way of putting it? These adjectives tend to dehumanize and offend. There are some anatomical males or TGs who would not win beauty prizes either, but I would hate to refer to them in a disparaging way.

I think we all agree that:

1. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder (some individuals do find an attractive CDer's features are more striking than a GG's),
2. True beauty comes from within,
3. And femininity is more than a mere look or a style. It has to do with internal characteristics, comportment, and demeanor.

Thank you all once again! :love:

[Diane CHILDS]

You have to admit it was a superbly disguised troll thread.
:heehee:
Who'd have guessed it would end in an argument?

Any thread with the initials "CDer", "GG's) and the word "better" is bound to end up with a disagreement ..... don't think you could call this an argument (yet) :)

All this talk that "that we are only illusionists" and "can never be as good as the "real" thing :daydreaming: does make me realise how far opinion and law has progressed in the UK and many places in Europe compared to many othe places in the world.

Under the Gender Recognition Act 2004, if you for-fill the correct criteria you can become female and be effectively "reborn" with aspects of your previous male life erased from records. Even, I repeat even if you haven't had or don't wish to have surgery to alter your genitals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004

The title female is no longer just a tag attached to a baby at birth. If your brain is wired as female, as many of ours are (even if you are living in denial about it).... the tag can be corrected later.

If you don't choose to conform to a binary system thats OK as well.

I really don't see any point in continuing this conversation because things have generally moved on from these types of attitudes (they have honestly!)

Best wishes Di

[jennifer24]

I agree with Crissy, I don`t think I look better or feel I`m better then anyone else but, I mentioned in a thread close to this one awhile back that some women/ girls don`t dress or act femmine at all, just the way some girls carry themselves. I`m not downing them or nothing becuase that`s there parogative, I just tend to be more femmine then some, I like Girly things, I know a couple of women who you will never see in a dress or even wear make up, me I love those things.

[briannad]

May I ask what was the title of the thread that let to the desire to ask the question?

[Raquel June]

I do not pass judgment nor am I offended in any way by the statements. I have noticed that the opinion is generally stated without malice. Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.

I'm glad to see you're not taking it personally. I've seen the comments, and I've seen GGs (not to name any names) get ridiculously bent out of shape about those comments. I really think that the people who say those things are just trying to be nice.

CDs are trying very hard to look like GGs. I can understand why it could offend a GG, but what better complement is there than saying a CD looks better than a GG?

It honestly doesn't even make sense, though. Could a CD actually look BETTER than a GG? I think you also have to read into it that they mean better than the average GG.




I am more curious as to why a CDer finds herself or another CDer more attractive, more feminine, or in any other way better than a GG, given a comparison between similar ages and attractiveness factor. Is it the better or more feminie clothes and attention to details such as makeup, hair, nails, or accessories?

If anybody actually means it when they say those things, I think they're referring about the CD trying harder. CDs put so much more effort into looking beautiful when they CD than an average GG on an average day ... you gotta give them some credit for that. Of course, it's comparing apples to oranges. If GGs spent that much effort (which they generally do for special occasions) they'd definitely look a whole lot better than most CDs ever could.

[ReineD]

May I ask what was the title of the thread that let to the desire to ask the question?

No thread in particular, Alyssa. It is just an observation I've made over reading many threads here.

[TGMarla]

I agree with what Suzy Cool said in her first post. I get compliments on my looks here all the time. When I attended a local TG meeting, I got lots of comments. But in person, the reality of it is that I'm a guy in a dress. Granted, I tool a lot of time preparing my makeup, getting my clothes just right, making sure my hair looks good, etc. But I'm still a guy, and I don't think I look nearly as good as even half the comments I am so privileged to receive. Generally speaking, women, on the other hand (even ugly ones!), have that natural femininity that we can only pretend to emulate.

I don't look as good as real girls. But I do spend a whole bunch of time trying to look as pretty as I can. And should a real woman take the same time to do the same, I have no doubts that the result would be much better than my meager efforts.

[Inachis]

I am sorry to everyone that your thread ended with an argument. I am to blame for continuing to poke a prod until feelings got hurt. This is my formal apology, and I would like to say that I will no longer respond on this subject. Thank you for your patience.

[harmony]

here is my example for the day:this lunchtime there was a young lady in front of my restaurant spitting on the sidewalk.here is what i told her:its bad enough when guys do this but this is what the ladies have come to who i remember used to go out wearing hats and gloves and heels.

[ReineD]

I am sorry to everyone that your thread ended with an argument. I am to blame for continuing to poke a prod until feelings got hurt. This is my formal apology, and I would like to say that I will no longer respond on this subject. Thank you for your patience.

Inachis, thank you for saying this, but I am also to blame for having started such a contentious topic. Had I thought it through I would have worded it differently and maybe posted it in the Loved Ones section. But, I suppose it is natural for tempers to rise over sensitive issues, and as long as people learn from it and remain friends when all is said and done, then the experience will have contributed to our learning process. I am sure there will be a growing awareness over the need to temper responses in future threads.
:hugs:

[suzy cool]

I think it was a very interesting question to ask. And it was nice to see so many responding rationally. I was just teasing about my troll comment but there are just some subjects you know are going to raise a few hackles no matter how well intentioned. Some good answers came out of it too.

[Kate Simmons]

Geez Reine, I've never considered myself a "femme fatale" no matter how much work I put into my look. Like many I used to think that being all gussied up was the ultimate in femininity. The problem with this line of thinking is that you tend to get all dressed up with no place to go, so to speak and to make a statement of looking "better" than GG's is stretching it to put it mildly.

This is not a competition. If that is what a person wants, there are contests and pageants for that and that is where the real scrutiny comes in. I'm wondering if those who consider themselves "ultra feminine" could handle not winning such an event.

For myself it has to do with the confidence of being who we are and not necessarily what we look like and that is what really makes us a "winner" or "loser" as a person and the beauty of spirit will shine through if it is in abundance.

I must admit it boggles me sometimes as to why some make such statements. As with most things in life, it's not so much whether we "win" or "lose" but how we play the "game".:)

[VeronicaMoonlit]

who i remember used to go out wearing hats and gloves and heels.

For the most part, they did that because it was what was expected of them. It wasn't 100% choice on their parts. It was societal pressure to conform. So when society changed and they got the choice of whether to wear hats and gloves and heels all the time, most women opted out.

Kudos to them I say, I don't blame them at all. It was probably time consuming and expensive and probably not comfortable in some ways. And some of them may have been FTM's or what we would now call butches or soft butches. They probably weren't all that happy. They could either dress like everyone else and be unhappy and not feel like themselves or dress like they wanted to and be called names...or worse.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Valeria]

The truth is that with the exception of a few TS's who have transistioned early in life, the vast majority of t-girls do not pass.
That's not really accurate, IMO. There are plenty of TS women who transitioned in their late 20s, 30s, even 40s who are totally passable. Some of us live perfectly normal lives, with everyone we interact with (including close friends, roommates, coworkers, even in-laws) assuming we are cis females. Of course, many of us aren't so fortunate, and some trans females never really reach that point (and yes, you are right that starting younger is helpful).

FWIW, a lot of TS women don't particularly care to be called t-girls (or trannies).


Looking good and being 100% passable are two different things.
Absolutely true. I've seen drag queens and transgendered women who were absolutely stunning looking -- gorgeous enough to be a model. Far more beautiful than I. But even at their best, they aren't anywhere near as passable as I am, due to factors like jawline, forehead, shoulders, height, unnatural walk, unpassable voice, facial hair, etc. Also, while they can look fabulous, it's generally an illusion, relying on makeup, wigs, breast forms, corsets, etc.


By the way, the "girls" in Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia (very few in Indonesia) dress like females because it is economically rewarding to be a prostitute, not because they have a desire to dress like a woman.They lack the cultural stigma against CD'ing that us westerners have. Hence it is easier to be a man dressed in female clothing, and be more confident when they are out in the world.
Umm, from what I know some of the kathoey identify as women, and they *are* female (whether their legal system recognizes it or not). Some of them think of themselves as third-gendered, and some of them appear to be effeminate gay men. Cultural differences make comparisons tricky. But the kathoey should not be referred to dismissively as "girls", with scare quotes around the word to indicate that you don't really think of them as girls, and they certainly aren't all prostitutess.

Anyway, I would agree with those who have posted that people are just judging beauty based on varying subjective criteria (such as how close someone is to some idealized fifties-era concept of femininity).

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I'm kinda neutral as I see people as people, not better than anyone else. Whether its male or female in any guise, the comparisons sorta need to go out the window.
I've met several that take their dressin up so seriously that it hampers their ability to actually ENJOY themselves or life. Lots of wasted time there.

Be who you are, don't try to compare, and enjoy what you have. Besides, pretty only lasts so long ;)

*hugs*

Zara

[Jennifer Devine]

I don't really think of myself as being better than anyone whether it is a CD or a GG.
If anything i try and look up to other GGs that i know and try and learn from them as much as i can so that it helps me progress with my crossdressing because at the end of the day, they are the real thing and they know what it is to be a woman.

[Farrah]

I don't look that great as a woman, but there are some gg's that come out as if they don't care how they look.

[DameErrant]

...is a smile. (Old Southern Proverb.)


When talking about beauty, we should remember that while external beauty can be an illusion, internal beauty is not. And both CDs and GGs can have the same type of beauty or lack of same.

With the new advances in Brain Science, it has been discovered that men and women do indeed have different brains, (mostly a matter of the relative size of the same areas,) and that there is a spectrum between the two. These are what they call "bridge brains," and many a TG will turn out to have a more feminine/female brain than some GGs. Amd vice versa.

As I have said on other boards, it's a matter of which you consider more important, more central to your identity, the body or the brain. In our case, I believe, we get some richer combinations than the non "gender enhanced."

That may be part of why we Cross Dress; a combination of the masculine visual orientation with our feminine inner feelings. This is certainly part of why some go on to transition, to bring the outer being into line with the inner self.

And maybe a part of why we want to look beautiful; we men/Tgirls still need the approval of other men in some degree, even when expressing our feminine side. Or maybe especially then in some cases. How many of you remember the thrill you felt the first time a man showed some interest in you as a woman? I do, and while I wasn't interested in responding, I felt validated as a woman when this happened! This being both yin and yang creates some interesting new combinations, and we should not be afraid of them.

But a feminine minded TGirl can express much, (though I agree, not all,) of the inner beauty of the GG. It's not all about makeup, hair, clothes, standing, sitting, walking and general deportment, But dressing the part seems to help us access that feminine part of ourselves more easily. I know it's true in my case; my wife says that I am almost a different personality when en femme, more outgoing, socialble, even flamboyant at times, not my usual introverted self. She has even caught me actively listening to other people talk about their feelings. And sharing mine in return. I wish I could do this more while en drabbe.

But this is just an example of how a Tgirl can express, at least in part, the inner beauty of the GGirl. Of course it's not perfect, but in this fallen world, what is?

[curse within]

Saying that CDers are better than GG's is like saying checks are better than cash.. Some folks just need to choose thier wording a bit better and maybe say things like almost or just as rather than better.

[Roxi Loh]

I guess I am on the side of I think I look better as a woman than I do as a man. I identify more with that person looking back from the mirror when I am dressed as a woman.

[Sheila]

We then have a natal female with lots of vacumous friends (do you mean vacuous?) who sees t-girls as "presenting as something they are not" Like fancy dress I suppose!! :strugglin
Di x :love:


We then have a natal female with lots of vacumous friends (do you mean vacuous?)

No I didn't, sorry it was a private joke between friends .......... and yes one is a CDR and I am a GG :D

[ChristineRenee]

Why are we in different arenas? Why so polarised? Check post number six again. I think it answered the original question very well indeed.

:sad::sad::sad:

Sarah...
I "get it" alright. I was a child of the 1950's who started CDing at the age of 12 in 1963. That was a long time ago. In the fifties, as a man, you weren't "dressed" in public if you didn't wear a hat. If you were a woman...you wore a hat, gloves, heels, and DRESSES in public. The world has changed a lot since the clothing mores of those times.

Once again...there is nothing wrong with wanting to look and feel inwardly AND outwardly as feminine as you possibly can. It's what we are about. I'm just saying this...to come out and say that CDers are more "feminine" or even care more about being more feminine in looks and demeanor than contemporary GG's who have so much more freedom in their dress and deportment in THIS day and age...is somewhat laughable.

I still say that we are illusionists at best...this said from someone who has spent a few years learning some "tricks of the trade" of how to photograph feminine. And if you don't think so...go photograph yourself in a bikini, or skimpy and sexy lingerie, a teddy or a revealing nightie, then compare that to even an average looking GG in the same outfit. THEN come back and tell me with a straight face that you are more sexy and/or feminine looking than many GG's.

[Sarah...]

And if you don't think so...go photograph yourself in a bikini, or skimpy and sexy lingerie, a teddy or a revealing nightie, then compare that to even an average looking GG in the same outfit. THEN come back and tell me with a straight face that you are more sexy and/or feminine looking than many GG's.

:heehee: I definitely couldn't say that! I'm not nearly "feminine" enough. There's some TGs who could though. Caroline Cossey for example. And that's my point. We can never say never. We can't be that general.

Sarah...

[Wendy Seymone]

"If there is one thing worse than being an ugly duckling in a house of swans, it's having the swans pretend there's no difference." ;)

[Deidra Cowen]

In my experience a high percentage of the best looking Caucasian trannies/ CD's aren't "normal" looking guys out of femme ..... many look "slightly built" and sometimes even a look a bit geeky as men, but because of their build and lack of strong facial features esp. jaw, brow line and nose..... they can look far better as women.

Quite a few of the best looking trannies that I know fall into this category, they look gorgeous as women and are always getting chatted up by men (sometimes straight men) when they are out, but find it really difficult to raise any interest in women (or men for that matter) when in drab.

A good friend who regularly does photo shoots for t-mags, has spoken to me about this at length and even started threads about it on other forums that I belong to.

Di

I have noticed that too...some of the very hottest trannies are indeed slightly off in guy mode. I think its the femmy facial features that those type girls have.

We have a FT girl here in Atlanta...Well she might NOT might be more beautiful than GGs (giggle) but the girl looks like a super model and is that one out of a thousand that absolutely passes! Back before she went FT i used to see her in boy mode too...very average almost geeky looking guy!!!!

Interesting observation Diane.


"If there is one thing worse than being an ugly duckling in a house of swans, it's having the swans pretend there's no difference." ;)

Who ya calling an ugly ducking???? Hey sweetie was great seeing ya last weekend.

[Diane CHILDS]

The truth is that with the exception of a few TS's who have transitioned early in life, the vast majority of t-girls do not pass.

Perhaps I should have said .... do not pass all of the time .

Of course many pass in every day situations, but I firmly believe (here in the UK) the vast majority of M2F TS's, find the concept of "stealth" very desirable but often unachievable, certainly with those in close contact.


That's not really accurate, IMO. There are plenty of TS women who transitioned in their late 20s, 30s, even 40s who are totally passable. Some of us live perfectly normal lives, with everyone we interact with (including close friends, roommates, coworkers, even in-laws) assuming we are cis females. Of course, many of us aren't so fortunate, and some trans females never really reach that point (and yes, you are right that starting younger is helpful).

FWIW, a lot of TS women don't particularly care to be called t-girls (or trannies).
.

Although I don't attach the tag of TS to myself, I personally know plenty who do and have read much on the subject on internet forums and elsewhere. Some are blessed and are so totally convincing that their past is never questioned ...... unfortunately most are not.



In reply to your second point I didn't call TS's ..... trannies :strugglin I used the general umbrella term "t-girls", because some here seem to dislike the general term "transgender".

In the UK, "t-girls" is an abbreviation of "trans-girls". What is the difference between trans-girls and the terms "trans-females" or "trans-women" which are the titles/tags you care to use?

Sounds like splitting hairs to me..... but a lot of that goes on in this "community." I'm sometimes guilty of it myself :D

FWIW, many m2f TS's in the UK who have acquired a gender recognition certificate, do not like being called TS women ..... they are just "women" or "female" and are free to enter into marriage with a man (a marriage as apposed to a civil partnership like same sex couples are entitled to to over here)

Best wishes Di

[victoriamwilliams1]

The sad part is I was watching a tabloid TV show and even a GG made the same comment! I was shocked, stunned and other startled! I cannot compare myself to a GG. I will say I have seen CD's/TG's who look just like some of the GG's I see and they come in all shapes and sizes.

Once upon a time I had the same feeling but as you grow and as you get older those thoughts start to go away. When I am dressed I personally look at GG's in admiration since I want to do my best presentation and I have found out the women will talk to you if you act and look approachable even when they know. They get offended we we act superior to them.

Now I am going to flip the story for you, I was watching a program a few years ago where a F2M said that they are better than GM's! again the person talking was in thier 20's and I was offened by the statement myself.

Most of the statements are based on how both genders are presenting themselves to the public and how each person perceives how we should all look. Some men do not dress to impress with a nice suit and tie anymore and some people get upset; And some feel that women do not wear skirts and dresses, heels and hose. Both are based on the region you live in as well as your income level.

I am off my soap box:)

[Jocelyn Renee]

I think Suzy Cool is really on to something with her observations. I have long wondered if CDing isn't on some level a bit of a push back against societal changes over the past 40 years or so. First it was women who were encouraged to become more like men and lately it is men that are being encouraged to be more like women. Somewhere along the way the line between men and women became a bit blurry.

Mind you, I'm not advocating a return to "a woman's place is in the home" mentality, but as I observe GGs going about their daily lives at the grocery store/mall etc., I can't help but feel a little sense of loss at the lack of femininity in our world today. Judging by the reactions of an increasing number of straight guys to particularly feminine t-girls I have a feeling I'm not alone.

[DameErrant]

I think Suzy Cool is really on to something with her observations. I have long wondered if CDing isn't on some level a bit of a push back against societal changes over the past 40 years or so. First it was women who were encouraged to become more like men and lately it is men that are being encouraged to be more like women. Somewhere along the way the line between men and women became a bit blurry.

Mind you, I'm not advocating a return to "a woman's place is in the home" mentality, but as I observe GGs going about their daily lives at the grocery store/mall etc., I can't help but feel a little sense of loss at the lack of femininity in our world today. Judging by the reactions of an increasing number of straight guys to particularly feminine t-girls I have a feeling I'm not alone.


Every year members of my support group go to some of the local universities to address some of the students in various disciplines, (sociology, medicine, etc.,) to talk about Transgender Issues. And practically each and every time they discover that they are the only ones wearing dresses! All the students, (and profs,) are wearing identical blue jeans! It got embarassing the first few times they were seated at tables at the front of the room with no modesty screen. But I guess that's just another sign of the times; unless they specifically ask for one, no one thinks to provide one.

One of our members likes to exagerate a bit when pointing this out to the students, that it is often easier to tell M from F at our meetings than it is in their classes! She goes on to say that someone has to preserve the Lore of Femininity for future generations, for when they or their daughters realize it is missing. And its obviously up to us CDs because it seems that we can't trust the women to do it!
:daydreaming:

This generates a lot of nervous laughter, but no one has yet objected too loudly. :heehee:

[Valeria]

Of course many pass in every day situations, but I firmly believe (here in the UK) the vast majority of M2F TS's, find the concept of "stealth" very desirable but often unachievable, certainly with those in close contact.
I don't know. I've lived with people for months without them knowing, or worked closely with them for more than a year, or gone with them to a water park wearing a string bikini, or whatever. I know others with similar experiences. ::shrug::

Admittedly, most of my close TS friends transitioned before 30, or had FFS, or both. I've never said someone can transition at 60 and expect to be totally passable. Even at an earlier age, there are no guarantees.


Although I don't attach the tag of TS to myself, I personally know plenty who do, and have read much on the subject on on-line forums and elsewhere. Some are blessed and are so totally convincing that their past is never questioned ...... most are unfortunately are not.
I'm an admin for a forum devoted specifically to younger transitioners. I've known hundreds of people who have gone full-time, had surgery, etc., so I know a little about the subject too. :)

My sole point is that there are a *lot* more women whose past is never questioned than people suspect. Often, the biggest issue is whether other stuff (like background checks or meeting someone who went to the same high school as you) betrays your past.


In reply to your second point I didn't call TS's ..... trannies
I know, that addition wasn't really directed at you. Sorry for the confusion.


I used the general umbrella term "t-girls", because some here seem to dislike the general term "transgender" . Here in the UK, "t-girls" is an abbreviation of trans-girls. What is the difference between trans-girls and the terms "trans-females" or "trans-women" which are the titles/tags you care to use?
Partly just the fact that I'm over 40 now? I wouldn't refer to an adult female as a trans girl for the same reasons I wouldn't refer to an adult male as a "boy". The other thing is that hyphenating the word turns it into a noun, whereas I'm using trans purely as an adjective. I don't use the nouns "transwoman" or "trans-woman" either. I'm sure it seems like nitpicking, and perhaps it's more of a feminist objection than anything, but the net result is that I'd classify "t-girls" as more othering and more of a diminuative.

And yes, some people object to transsexual and others object to transgender. I haven't seen many objections to the word "trans" offensive, however.


Many TS's in the UK who have acquired a gender recognition certificate, don't like being called TS women ..... they are just "women" or "female", and are free to enter into marriage with a man
I wouldn't normally use "TS" in that respect either, but since this forum is mostly not transitioners, I wasn't sure that "trans female" would be clear as to

In real life, I don't believe I've ever referred to myself (or been called) a TS woman or a trans woman or a trans female -- I would only use such a label in a conversation of this ilk (i.e. a thread about women and trans people of various flavors, where clarity as to a detail of that sort is necessary for my comments to make sense). All my friends and coworkers believe that I'm just another female, and I've no interest in telling them otherwise.

But in an abstract (and anonymous) conversation such as this, I don't personally find the term "trans female" to be offensive any more than I think "cis female" or "lesbian female" or "blonde female" is offensive. It's just an adjective, and I consider the adjectives "trans" and "cis" to be pretty clinical at this point. Using a word like "transwoman", however, arguably classifies us as something other than a woman. But I'm sure neither of us wishes to debate semantics any longer.

Anyway, even though I live in the USA, I'm just female too. We don't have "gender recognition certificates" where I live -- instead, they simply replaced my birth certificate with a new one, which has my correct legal name and states that my sex is female. I could marry a man if I wanted to, but seeing as how I'm lesbian and have a life partner, it doesn't seem likely that I ever will.

[emmicd]

Reine,

I am a lifelong crossdresser in my mid 40s who started quite innocently as a 5 year old drawn to girls clothes. I always enjoyed the pretty clothes girls wore and the soft textures and the colors. I always admired and still do GGs when they wear their dresses and pretty outfits. I always felt jealous that they got to wear such pretty clothes and we as boys dressed so plain. I also admired women for their beauty and strength. I truly believe woman is God's greatest creation. A woman is just so pretty in every way and very compassionate and nuturing. They truly are quite a sight and so needed. I love women and in some small way through crossdressing try to get a glimpse into the female way though not realistically. I do love dressing in girls/womens clothes much more than guys clothes and I truly feel happier when I am able to wear a pretty dress even if it is in private. I wish I could have that girl feeling for even a little time so I can internalize it and hold on to it for I feel I would be a cute girl. I also believe girls/women are smart and not always given the credit they deserve. I even tap into my inner girl and sometimes find myself watching girls movies like sisterhood of the travelling pants to tap into the mind of a young girl becoming a young woman. I feel as a crossdresser we are teenage girls embarking on becoming young women. I am in awe of women and admire them very much. I believe dressing for girls is a fun thing and they get caught up in it and it helps them with their self esteem. I also believe when a girl gets older dressing may become second nature and they don't always feel the need to get all dressed up. I know many girls that hardly wear dresses. I as a crossdresser would never tire of wearing dresses because I hardly have the opportunity to wear them. If I could I would wear a pretty dress every day. It makes me feel so pretty and feminine even if I am still a guy. So I know GGs are so much more prettier and natural. I am a crossdresser who probabaly is transgendered to some degree since I do love to wear pretty clothes and do like to say I am a GIRL! when I am dressed. I may be a girl internally but know reality brings me back to being a guy. I need my crossdressing and am very careful with it because I am married to a beautiful woman I love and the proud father of a son I love and admire.

GGs are my inspiration and I am very happy to be a crossdresser though would not wish it on anyone because it really takes control of your every thought and it is not easy to come to terms with. It has taken a long time for me to accept my crossdressing. Now it is fun and all the choices! I love to shop for pretty dresses and shoes! Oh yes I am indeed a feminine crossdresser who loves being a girl!

Thank you for asking a great question!

emmi
xoxo

[Diane CHILDS]

Partly just the fact that I'm over 40 now? I wouldn't refer to an adult female as a trans girl for the same reasons I wouldn't refer to an adult male as a "boy".


Anyway, even though I live in the USA, I'm just female too. We don't have "gender recognition certificates" where I live -- instead, they simply replaced my birth certificate with a new one,

Okay I'll remember that.

I have a natal female partner in her 40's as well, (I use natal female instead of GG because I know some TS's object to the term "genetic" and lots object to RG or real girl) ..... Anyway my partner is having "a night out with the girls, tonight" (her words). I'll correct her when she gets in and tell her she had a night out with the women. :devil:

The reason I raised gender recognition certificates is ..... as I said earlier there is no requirement to have any genital or sex reassignment surgery in order to obtain one. I can understand the reasoning behind this but I know from experience that a minority of TS's can not. A militant few believe that it's wrong for a person with male anatomy and attachments to be granted female status and all that goes with it.

Anyway going into that any further would take us way off topic ..... I'm glad you tell me that things are just the same in the 52 States.

Peace love and the correct titles to all !

Di x

[battybattybats]

If we consider that everyone is a different mixture of masculine and feminine then no-one should be surprised that some CDs would be more feminine than even 90% of GG's. It just stands to reason.

And if we consider that peoples anatomy is a mixture of male and female traits differentiating at several stages in the womb and during childhood and during adolescence where masculinising and feminising hormones fluctuate and vary at each and every stage based on a wide variety of factors then it would be simply absurd for some GG's not to be more masculine in appearance than the average man and some GMs more feminine than the average woman.

Thats just how biological diversity works.

And sure some folk who transition before too much time under the influence of sex-hormones makes them too male or female in secondary sex characteristics etc will 'pass' more easilly. And some GG's have trouble 'passing' as women as the cases where some were thrown out of womens toilets have shown!

There never has been a clear distinction between male and female. Some studies suggest as many as 1 in 60 people are anatomically genetically or biologically a mix of male and female, many without ever knowing it!

What we have is mixtures and combinations of deviations from a set level of androgyny with some folk more extended into male or female anatomy and some people being more extended into masculinity or femininity.

No-one is entirely one or the other.

As for better than... well lets consider these:

* a FtM has to fight harder for their manhood/masculinity. A MtF for their womanhood/femininity. Someone who fits comfortably into their sex/gender never has to work for it and faces less stigma, oppression etc. Doesn't that mean that the TG person earned what the Gg/gm person takes for granted? That should make the TG person more deserving of their sex/gender and make their sex/gender more valuable.

* A TG person may be far more male or female internally than a GG or GM is. The GG/GM may be 60/40 in their masculinity/feminity mix while the TG person might be 95/5. Doesn't that make them more of a man or woman than the GG/GM?

* Many people find a mixture of male and female anatomy especially attractive. Many people find expression of a mixture of masculinty/femininity especially attractive. To those people a TG person will be much better than a GG/GM!

* judging others or yourselves as more or less valuable because of comparisons to average male or female or extremes of male or female is sexist and conformist both of which are terrible wrongs. Instead people should strive to be true to how they feel inside. No more feminine or masculine than they want/need to be, no less than they want/need to be and absolutely rejecting others expectations of how masculine or feminine they are supposed to be. So no GG is diminished one iota by a TG person being more or better a woman than they and same for GMs. And a TG person who does not entirely conform to averages of male or female appearance and/or never passes is not one iota less valuable than one who passes effortlessly.

Everyone grows up with sexist conformist indoctrination. Everyone must learn to see past it to the truth.

TG women are not 'near-women' or 'almost-women' or 'mimicking-women' they can very much be just women, some more woman than many GGs even if their outer appearance does not pass as such, yes even crossdressers.

The same goes for TG men and GMs. I can most certainly say that many of the FtM guys I've met here and elsewhere are more male than I ever was or could be and more men than many of my GM friends are.

Every single human is a mixture of male and female. In their chromasomes, hormones, anatomy, neurology, personality etc. There are not set distinct seperate groups, just common averages.

CDs and other TGs (and intersex) are people whose mixture makes this more clear, more obvious. And as such we embody a great truth that much of the rest of society is oblivious too or willfully trying to supress. We are constantly told that we are less-than, wrong, broken, ill, deviant etc because of our sex/gender mixture when in fact we are highly important and valuable for that very reason.

TG people (and Intersex) are at least as good as GGs and GMs and untill society throws out its false myths of sex and gender and adapts to the scientific facts of sex and gender diversity accross all people then we ARE more important in our sex and gender than those who fit easily into the current sexist oppressive conformist bigoted and evil binary social sex/gender system

[curse within]

Ok not saying that men are not better at my age but speaking for myself and someone has to say it!!! Being singleI have found that most GG's sorry if the truth hurts are over weight careless in how they act and present them selves.

Speaking from well what I am going through it is what it is.... I know some day I will find my life partner but it is like swimming through a swamp full with reed I am in no way shallow but it has been a joke...

[Sheila]

Ok not saying that men are not better at my age but speaking for myself and someone has to say it!!! Being singleI have found that most GG's sorry if the truth hurts are over weight careless in how they act and present them selves.

Speaking from well what I am going through it is what it is.... I know some day I will find my life partner but it is like swimming through a swamp full with reed I am in no way shallow but it has been a joke...


It is posts like this that make me wonder why I bother to remain a member of this site .............. now that is a shallow statement .... are we not meant to be supporting the people we are within as opposed to the exterior view ........ or have I got that wrong:Angry3::Angry3:

[Diane CHILDS]

If we consider that everyone is a different mixture of masculine and feminine then no-one should be surprised that some CDs would be more feminine than even 90% of GG's. It just stands to reason.

And if we consider that peoples anatomy is a mixture of male and female traits differentiating at several stages in the womb and during childhood and during adolescence where masculinising and feminising hormones fluctuate and vary at each and every stage based on a wide variety of factors then it would be simply absurd for some GG's not to be more masculine in appearance than the average man and some GMs more feminine than the average woman.

Thats just how biological diversity works.

And sure some folk who transition before too much time under the influence of sex-hormones makes them too male or female in secondary sex characteristics etc will 'pass' more easilly. And some GG's have trouble 'passing' as women as the cases where some were thrown out of womens toilets have shown!

There never has been a clear distinction between male and female. Some studies suggest as many as 1 in 60 people are anatomically genetically or biologically a mix of male and female, many without ever knowing it!

What we have is mixtures and combinations of deviations from a set level of androgyny with some folk more extended into male or female anatomy and some people being more extended into masculinity or femininity.

No-one is entirely one or the other.

As for better than... well lets consider these:

* a FtM has to fight harder for their manhood/masculinity. A MtF for their womanhood/femininity. Someone who fits comfortably into their sex/gender never has to work for it and faces less stigma, oppression etc. Doesn't that mean that the TG person earned what the Gg/gm person takes for granted? That should make the TG person more deserving of their sex/gender and make their sex/gender more valuable.

* A TG person may be far more male or female internally than a GG or GM is. The GG/GM may be 60/40 in their masculinity/feminity mix while the TG person might be 95/5. Doesn't that make them more of a man or woman than the GG/GM?

* Many people find a mixture of male and female anatomy especially attractive. Many people find expression of a mixture of masculinty/femininity especially attractive. To those people a TG person will be much better than a GG/GM!

* judging others or yourselves as more or less valuable because of comparisons to average male or female or extremes of male or female is sexist and conformist both of which are terrible wrongs. Instead people should strive to be true to how they feel inside. No more feminine or masculine than they want/need to be, no less than they want/need to be and absolutely rejecting others expectations of how masculine or feminine they are supposed to be. So no GG is diminished one iota by a TG person being more or better a woman than they and same for GMs. And a TG person who does not entirely conform to averages of male or female appearance and/or never passes is not one iota less valuable than one who passes effortlessly.

Everyone grows up with sexist conformist indoctrination. Everyone must learn to see past it to the truth.

TG women are not 'near-women' or 'almost-women' or 'mimicking-women' they can very much be just women, some more woman than many GGs even if their outer appearance does not pass as such, yes even crossdressers.

The same goes for TG men and GMs. I can most certainly say that many of the FtM guys I've met here and elsewhere are more male than I ever was or could be and more men than many of my GM friends are.

Every single human is a mixture of male and female. In their chromasomes, hormones, anatomy, neurology, personality etc. There are not set distinct seperate groups, just common averages.

CDs and other TGs (and intersex) are people whose mixture makes this more clear, more obvious. And as such we embody a great truth that much of the rest of society is oblivious too or willfully trying to supress. We are constantly told that we are less-than, wrong, broken, ill, deviant etc because of our sex/gender mixture when in fact we are highly important and valuable for that very reason.

TG people (and Intersex) are at least as good as GGs and GMs and untill society throws out its false myths of sex and gender and adapts to the scientific facts of sex and gender diversity accross all people then we ARE more important in our sex and gender than those who fit easily into the current sexist oppressive conformist bigoted and evil binary social sex/gender system

Very well put! I find this response heartening. :hugs:

I'm not sure I'd have said that "some CDers are more feminine than even 90% of GG's" but I suppose it depends on the part of the world where you live.

Also .... many people who apparently fit comfortably into their sex/gender have had to work at it from an early age in order to conform and in reality they are living a lie. They are not being true to them selves's often because of fear and social stigma of the binary sex/gender system.

You should change your name on here, my wise Australian sis ..... you are not at all "batty" :) :thumbsup:

Love Di

[Sarah...]

Very well put! I find this response heartening. :hugs:



Yes, I'd second that. BBB's response was very close to what I was thinking but having great difficulty in putting into words. Excellent. Just excellent.

Sarah...

[battybattybats]

Very well put! I find this response heartening. :hugs:

Thanks :)


I'm not sure I'd have said that "some CDers are more feminine than even 90% of GG's" but I suppose it depends on the part of the world where you live.

Not many though but a few, cause some CDs are extremely feminine and comparable in their femininity only to the most extremely feminine GGs. Note that femininity is different from having female appearance, though also some TSs (including one I know) can have more female anatomical appearance pre-surgery than some morenaturally masculine bodied women (including some I know). And proportionatly the same works inversely. This is cause masculinity and femininity of behaviour/expression and of anatomy are widely diverse. but society doesn't value that diversity, it generally only values the extremes.


Also .... many people who apparently fit comfortably into their sex/gender have had to work at it from an early age in order to conform and in reality they are living a lie. They are not being true to them selves's often because of fear and social stigma of the binary sex/gender system.

Very good point!


You should change your name on here, my wise Australian sis ..... you are not at all "batty" :) :thumbsup:

Love Di

Aww shucks :o :hugs:

[Tamara Croft]

Ok not saying that men are not better at my age but speaking for myself and someone has to say it!!! Being singleI have found that most GG's sorry if the truth hurts are over weight careless in how they act and present them selves.Wow, aren't you just a nice person eh? No wonder you haven't found anyone with that :censor: attitude. You really are an ass... you know that right? So.. just wtf are you then eh? super slim.. model.. eat a lettuce leaf a day? Jeez... why dontcha just show us GG's how to be real women whilst you're at it... jerk... :rolleyes:

[ReineD]

That may be part of why we Cross Dress; a combination of the masculine visual orientation with our feminine inner feelings. This is certainly part of why some go on to transition, to bring the outer being into line with the inner self.

And maybe a part of why we want to look beautiful; we men/Tgirls still need the approval of other men in some degree, even when expressing our feminine side. Or maybe especially then in some cases. How many of you remember the thrill you felt the first time a man showed some interest in you as a woman? I do, and while I wasn't interested in responding, I felt validated as a woman when this happened! This being both yin and yang creates some interesting new combinations, and we should not be afraid of them.

Thank you for this! I have seen similar sentiments expressed in other threads, but I still was not able to understand why a CDer would want male attention, if he is heterosexual, or why she would think of herself as lesbian. Your explanation helps to make it clear. Interesting. It is not a question of alternating the male sex and the female gender, but a permanent state where a mixture of both is always present. The yin and the yang, as you put it, need not be at cross purposes but instead, must learn to live side by side. This is quite a task! No wonder it is so difficult to define. It is the non-binary sex/gender mixture as is stated below.




CDs and other TGs (and intersex) are people whose mixture makes this more clear, more obvious. And as such we embody a great truth that much of the rest of society is oblivious too or willfully trying to supress. We are constantly told that we are less-than, wrong, broken, ill, deviant etc because of our sex/gender mixture when in fact we are highly important and valuable for that very reason.

TG people (and Intersex) are at least as good as GGs and GMs and untill society throws out its false myths of sex and gender and adapts to the scientific facts of sex and gender diversity accross all people then we ARE more important in our sex and gender than those who fit easily into the current sexist oppressive conformist bigoted and evil binary social sex/gender system

Very well said, Batty, yet again! :thumbsup: Have you ever thought of becoming a public spokesperson for the cause?

[Diane CHILDS]

...

And maybe a part of why we want to look beautiful; we men/Tgirls still need the approval of other men in some degree, even when expressing our feminine side. Or maybe especially then in some cases. How many of you remember the thrill you felt the first time a man showed some interest in you as a woman? I do, and while I wasn't interested in responding, I felt validated as a woman when this happened! This being both yin and yang creates some interesting new combinations, and we should not be afraid of them.



Thank you for this! I have seen similar sentiments expressed in other threads, but I still was not able to understand why a CDer would want male attention, if he is heterosexual, or why she would think of herself as lesbian. Your explanation helps to make it clear.


Yes you've got it.

I am only attracted to females and would feel no thrill at all if an obviously gay man or any man at a gay venue showed interest in me, but on the rare occasions I've had complements from "apparently" straight guys ..... it's been a nice experience.

Even barbed compliments such as .... " I find you attractive which scares me"

or one more likely to come from a group of men who've read you "I would, anyway" .....

can all make me smile, even though no attraction is reciprocated.

Of course the best barbed compliments are always from lesbians, I had a few at the Sparkle get together this year. One natal girl even pinched my bum, told me I was lovely and to come back and see her if I ever had it cut off. :o


Di

[battybattybats]

Regarding Yin and Yang, the twin teardrop circle symbol is the main symbol of the Tao (aka the Dao) which means 'the way', generally concerned with achieving enlightenment, wisdom, health and immortality. Yang is the masculine principle and Yin the feminine. Note that their is a dot of each colour in the other teardrop. This represents that in all things Yang there is some Yin and in all things Yin there is some Yang. Men can have more Yin than Yang, women more Yang than Yin. Taoism can be a religion to some but it is also be a secualar philosophy free of religious aspects, poetry and even a political ideology!

Much of chinese medicine, acupuncture and things like qi-gon and Tai-chi are based on balencing and enabling the flow of energy of these male/female principles.



Very well said, Batty, yet again! :thumbsup: Have you ever thought of becoming a public spokesperson for the cause?

My CFS prevents me from doing a lot (drat-it) but I'd love to help anyway I can.
Any TG advocate need a speechwriter who can work casual?

[Diane CHILDS]

One natal girl even pinched my bum, told me I was lovely and to come back and see her if I ever had it cut off. :o
Di


I've just realised some Americans might not understand what I am talking about and a few might think I have a pet tramp! :eek:

As most of the members here are American, perhaps I should have typed "pinched my fanny," ...... then again, as far as Brits are concerned this physical impossibility was the crux of the matter. :doh:

If I refer to my posterior again, I'll remember to call it my bottom or butt .... perhaps everyone will then understand what I'm talking about then :heehee:

Love Di x

[LA CINDY LOVE]

The sad part is I was watching a tabloid TV show and even a GG made the same comment! I was shocked, stunned and other startled! I cannot compare myself to a GG. I will say I have seen CD's/TG's who look just like some of the GG's I see and they come in all shapes and sizes.

Once upon a time I had the same feeling but as you grow and as you get older those thoughts start to go away. When I am dressed I personally look at GG's in admiration since I want to do my best presentation and I have found out the women will talk to you if you act and look approachable even when they know. They get offended we we act superior to them.

Now I am going to flip the story for you, I was watching a program a few years ago where a F2M said that they are better than GM's! again the person talking was in thier 20's and I was offened by the statement myself.

Most of the statements are based on how both genders are presenting themselves to the public and how each person perceives how we should all look. Some men do not dress to impress with a nice suit and tie anymore and some people get upset; And some feel that women do not wear skirts and dresses, heels and hose. Both are based on the region you live in as well as your income level.

I am off my soap box:)
This is well put and it one on the reason that some Cd's feel they look better then a GG, I have been told by some GG that I look better then some women but I tell them thanks but I am just a cheap copy of the original and no way do I look better .

There are time when I hear them at the club talk how great we look and that some of us look better then a woman and how hard it is to tell who is real and who is not.

I do feel that some Cd's get told this by GG and they run with it and I know some Cd's who tell me that they are better looking then some women just because some GG was being kind to them but they still run with it.

A lot of gurls have to spend a lot of money to HELP them look like a woman but that dose NOT make them BETTER then a woman and yes some do look just as good as a GG after spending a small fortune.................but they still are just a copy of the original.

LA CINDY LOVE