From the SO's view point

[Autumndawn]

:2c:

There have been many questions here as to how to go about telling the SO. So many have asked questions as to what is the best way to communicate this. I don't know if this information has been placed here before, or if any of you have come across it. The following is the "Bill of Rights" for women married to cross dressers that find out after, from the crossdressers wives site. I think it gives us all alot to think about! Just a quick exploration of the site provides tremendous insight, at least to me, the concerns, feelings, and questions of those very special women in your life that don't know. I'd love to hear what anyone else has to say about information like this. Hugs ~ Liz


1. I have the right to know PRIOR to marriage/cohabitation - not to be lied to at the altar.


2. I have the right to be open and honest with any one I choose.


3. I have the right to feel a range of all emotions without compromise.


4. I have the right to accept or reject the practice of cross-dressing - including sexual acts.


5. I have the right to refuse to participate or be exposed to the practice of cross-dressing.


6. I have the right to choose whether or not to stay in the relationship.


7. I have the right to insist on therapy if choosing to stay in the relationship.


8. I have the right to have open communication about cross-dressing - no elephants in the room.


9. I have the right to protect our children from psychological trauma.


10. I have the right to have my choices respected.

[uknowhoo]

It is the right and responsibility of anyone in a relationship to convey to their partner what their needs and desires are. Hopefully the partner is generally willing and able to respect these, and to reciprocate.

To follow is a link to the Tri-Ess Wives Bill of Rights:

http://www.tri-ess.org/Wives_CDs_BofR.html

It seems to me Dawn, that the Bill of Rights you posted has a bit harder edge to it than the linked version with which many of us are more familiar. Of course no one can deny you the right to reject crossdressing, or refuse to participate in it; and of course you have the right to have your choices respected. It is a two-way street though, and your SO has the right to have his (in the case of MtF) rights including having his choices respected as well. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't get much of feeling of mutual respect from the list you posted.

It certainly not my intention to "bash," just letting you hear my thoughts as you requested.

Respectfully,

Tammi

[suzy cool]

That sounds like "The Seriously Pissed of Wife" Bill of Rights to me.

[Sarah...]

I do have to agree with Tammi's response. And AutumnDawn is correct in noting that there should be a number of inalienable rights for individuals.

However a bill of rights for women married to crossdressers is unnecessarily polarised. We might equally as well construct a bill of rights the other way around for crossdressers married to women (or men). But that would be equally wrong. Or perhaps we should write a bill of rights for men married to gamblers. Or one for women married to alcoholics. Or one for any kind of "normal" person married to any kind of "different" person where there are issues of (dis)agreement.

They would all be as polarised as each other and incapable of actually being a balanced bill of rights. A polarised group of people of any hue cannot construct a balanced bill of rights. By definition. If I thought I was to go into a room with 20 other TGs and write a bill of rights I should have to refuse until quite a few other sections of society were also represented. Including but not limited to wives/husbands/partners.

The bill as described above falls at the first point in it's assumption that all CDers / TGs know about this aspect of their life at the time of agreeing to enter into a marriage. For every one that does there'll be another who doesn't. I did. But I'm not an example of everyone.

:sad:

Sarah...

[MsJanessa]

Your bill of rights sounds more like a list of ultimatims--the relationships between spouses is much more complicated than that and I suppose if I were to marry a lady, I would tell her beforehand but if she imposed that list on me then the courtship would be over because we obviousily would not be compatible.

[MJ]

well not so much a "Bill of Rights" but more like a bill of how.. without losing the one you love your children your house and your job when outed.
there is great fear in this. if it was easy we all would have done so

[Di]

Wow that version is harsh . Doesn't really seem like its geared to the couple working out the differences seems more like its this way or the highway. I strongly disagree with with number 2
number 3 number 4.

[harmony]

just as an example:i told my ex while we were dating in no uncertain terms.she thought-as it turned out later-that her love for me would cure me!a wonderful concept but we all know it does not work!!

[darla_g]

I am just curious, Autumndawn if that is the version of the Bill of Rights that you abide by?

if so how is that working for you?

[charlie]

Hello AutumDawn!
Your rights list has a bit of an edge to it, but you are entitled to that too! The CD's here expect to be accepted and helped by their SO's just because this is who we are. However, our SO's finding about this after marriage have the absolute right to NOT accept their Prince charming becoming a woman, not to stay married to a different type of man then the one they thought they married and to not accept CD or support CD at all. Thanks for the blunt assessment that I thought existed all along. Please stay a member and keep telling us how you think. It is helpful.

[Autumndawn]

Ya all are tryin to kill the messenger! I didn't write these, nor contrive these. I picked this "Bill of Rights" up from the cdwives.com site. I thought I had that stated. I'm not following it, I simply saw it and asked for some comments and thoughts! Please ladies! I'm in the same boat as a good portion of you! Just trying to find my way through life's maze... Many hugs ~ Liz

PS Sometimes it feels better with the girdle off

[battybattybats]

That 'bill of rights' unfortunately goes against the basic principles of Human Rights philosophy.

Many of those requirements are abuses of the rights of the CD, not fair and equal rights and so are invalid.

[curse within]

Those Bill of Rights sound like something my soon to be ex wrote except it didn't include" I can go out and have an affair because you crossdress" . It is just another theory of how the world accepts Crossdressing ,no where does it say I have the right to learn, honor and respect my crossdressers desires and privacy because I took an oath and I was aware of the crossdressing prior to our relationship.

[Rachel Morley]

I have no clue who wrote this but IMHO this is very harsh and not at all helpful in respect to being non confrontational in a sensitive situation like discussing each others thoughts, feelings and emotions. Reading it you can almost feel the "anti-sentiment". Where's the empathy for the CDer's feelings? I hate number 7 if you mean it's the CDer who "has to go" to therapy.

[docrobbysherry]

Here's how I would amend this Bill of Rights:


1. I have the right to know PRIOR to marriage/cohabitation - not to be lied to at the altar.
a. If I DID tell u, and u decide to stay with me, u promise NOT to hold my CDing against me without just cause. And not to use it as a weapon against me, or threaten to tell anyone of my CDing, or actually tell anyone about it, just to gain an advantage in the relationship.
b. If I didn't tell u, I should get what I deserve. See #6 below.


2. I have the right to be open and honest with any one I choose.
a. Does that mean I have the rite to be open and honest about my CDing with whom ever I choose? It should!


3. I have the right to feel a range of all emotions without compromise.
a. Nobody can stop another person from feeling whatever they're feeling. However, u shall NOT blame my CDing for some other problem we have, not caused by it. No "blame game"! (See #1.a above).


4. I have the right to accept or reject the practice of cross-dressing - including sexual acts.
a. Then I have an equal rite to accept or reject anything u do that I may not be excited about!
b. Neither party shall use sex as a weapon in our relationship. EVER!


5. I have the right to refuse to participate or be exposed to the practice of cross-dressing.
a. I shall have the equal rite to refuse to partipate in any practice u have that I may find objectionable.


6. I have the right to choose whether or not to stay in the relationship.
a. So do I.


7. I have the right to insist on therapy if choosing to stay in the relationship.
a. If u insist on therapy, than that means u shall participate in it yourself, if necessary.
b. Both parties agree to try the therapist's recommendations with a postitive attitude and an open mind. If not, apply #6. above.


8. I have the right to have open communication about cross-dressing - no elephants in the room.
a. No elephants, yours or mine, allowed in the room. If someone will not discuss their elephant, the other party may apply #6 above, pack the elephant with their things, and hit the road.


9. I have the right to protect our children from psychological trauma.
a. Agreed. As long as judging what is "psychological trauma" is left to qualified professionals.
b. That excludes u from unnecessarily scaring them about my CDing, or threatening me in front of them, and threatening to reveal my CDing to them, or anyone else, to gain an advantage over, or to punish me. In other words, u agree not to cause psychological trauma to the children also.


10. I have the right to have my choices respected.
a. As do I. Including my choice to CD. As long as it doesn't bring harm to anyone in the family.


11. The "catch all" amement. This allows both parties acting in concert, to add, subtract, modify, or change in any way they desire, this Bill of Rights. However, all such actions are to be entirely acceptable to both parties. Otherwise, see #6 above.
:hugs:

[Sarah...]

Ya all are tryin to kill the messenger! I didn't write these, nor contrive these. I picked this "Bill of Rights" up from the cdwives.com site. I thought I had that stated. I'm not following it, I simply saw it and asked for some comments and thoughts! Please ladies! I'm in the same boat as a good portion of you! Just trying to find my way through life's maze... Many hugs ~ Liz

PS Sometimes it feels better with the girdle off

Cool.

Sarah...

[glynnis]

The way I see it if she loves you she accepts you as you are.My first wife and my girlfriend a few years ago totally accepted me as I am.My second wife totally accepts me me because she loves me and I love her.Seems logical to me.:brolleyes:

[Delila]

That sounds like "The Seriously Pissed of Wife" Bill of Rights to me.

I concur. Especially about the exposing children to psychological harm part that basically assumes that if you are a crossdresser that has children and you tell them then you are harming them. I personally believe that that idea is horrific.

[Inachis]

There a few aspects to consider when declaring a "Bill of Rights".

First, one must consider that potential impact of direct statements. (i.e. We have the right to choose whether or not to continue a relationship) Relationships are a two way street we both have that option.

Second, does a BoR make its statement clear enough as to not encourage semantics. This point is well illustrated in the BoR shown originally.

Third, does this BoR allow for the inane rights of the other individuals. In this case, No because it puts all of the power in the holders hands, not allowing for our inane rights as people.

While my SO and I have no problems in direct lines of communication. Others aren't just as fortunate. There can only be true acceptance when all parties are able to sit down, and listen to what they have to say.

[Jess_cd32]

It should read "I should be respected on my opinions if I"......... stay.. leave.... don't like it etc... .

Both parties re: cd-ing have rights that should be respected, whether the SO accepts it or not. CDing isn't a choice thing and some don't realize untill after they are married how badly their desire, that may have been very mild before marriage is now raging and can't be denied any longer. The desire to dress (w/ some) changes as time goes on.

We all want a 'perfect partner', and rarely do they really exist in any of our relationships.

To put alittle more perspective on this, would you rather have had him tell you he's a cd, or has a terminal illness and has 6 months to live, the latter makes you realize what's truly important in a relationship, just having them there everyday, regardless of their "quirks" I guess a SO may refer to CDing as.

[Raquel June]

Many crossdressers are obsessed, and they do need to tone it down to have a stable marriage. But many wives are just angry. That list was written by some pissed off wives who deeply resent their crossdressing husbands. They need a lot of therapy. A lot of women find out their husband crossdresses, and they suddenly decide they hate him. They want him to stop. If they can kinda accept it, they still don't want to see it, ever. The sad part is that even if he did stop completely, she would still resent him. She would resent whatever it was in him that made him want to crossdress in the first place. She will never respect him, so she needs to just move on instead of being so angry.



I agree with what Doc's saying, but specifically:


1. I have the right to know PRIOR to marriage/cohabitation - not to be lied to at the altar.

That's offensive. It's as though not mentioning that you like to wear a skirt now and then is akin to having herpes or hiding the fact that you're sterile. Some secrets are best kept that way. If crossdressing is an obsession/addiction, or if you're transgendered, then that's definitely something you need to bring up, but otherwise it's not a lie not to mention it. I wouldn't expect (or want) a woman to tell me her sexual history. If I was engaged to a girl I wouldn't tell her how often I masturbate. It's just not appropriate to drop bombs on people when it's not something that affects them. Obviously if crossdressing is a significant part of your life (as it is for most of us on this forum) then you'd be better off telling your SO before you get married, but I've heard plenty stories where the wife didn't find out for years then acted as though the whole marriage was a total lie and they weren't actually in love. That's ridiculous.


2. I have the right to be open and honest with any one I choose.

People who say "honesty" a lot are often using it to justify overt aggression. You do not have the right to tell anyone you choose anymore than I have the right to put your naked picture on a billboard.


3. I have the right to feel a range of all emotions without compromise.

"Emotions without compromise" is a psycho bitch screaming at her SO. No, you do not have the right to be out of control. Behave like a civil human being.


4. I have the right to accept or reject the practice of cross-dressing - including sexual acts.

Regardless of what you accept, I have the right to some personal time.


5. I have the right to refuse to participate or be exposed to the practice of cross-dressing.

I have the right to refuse to participate in family events or be exposed to your mother.


6. I have the right to choose whether or not to stay in the relationship.

You do not have the right to stay in a relationship that you will never be happy in just to make me miserable, holding children and personal secrets over my head.


7. I have the right to insist on therapy if choosing to stay in the relationship.

Great idea! And you have to go, too, and you can't quit after three weeks of showing up to roll your eyes and not participating. Angry women hate therapy!


8. I have the right to have open communication about cross-dressing - no elephants in the room.

Indeed! Fair, open communication, aimed at resolving problems.


9. I have the right to protect our children from psychological trauma.

Now a crossdresser is a pedophile that your children need protected from? You have the right to stuff him in the closet and indoctrinate his kids against him?


10. I have the right to have my choices respected.

Ironic!

[Samantha Kelsey]

Some good points in that bill of rights but why not have a bill of rights for women married to,
Alcoholics, wife beaters, child molesters, drug addicts, peodaphiles, murderers, thieves, and darn right ugly people. It would seem to many people that we ought to be in this group anyway. Or is it all covered by the current marriage vows? Thank god it is.

[Di]

Ya all are tryin to kill the messenger! I didn't write these, nor contrive these. I picked this "Bill of Rights" up from the cdwives.com site. I thought I had that stated. I'm not following it, I simply saw it and asked for some comments and thoughts! Please ladies! I'm in the same boat as a good portion of you! Just trying to find my way through life's maze... Many hugs ~ Liz

PS Sometimes it feels better with the girdle off

Not trying to kill the messenger...I thought we were discussing it? Hope you are not following having to following with your wife:sad:...just seems very one sided and from someone very angry and does'nt seem it would help a couple work things out. Like the other version Tammi gave more user friendly:D
http://www.tri-ess.org/Wives_CDs_BofR.html

[Shelly67]

Perhaps in life we should all adopt a more open view to each others hopes and expectations ?
As for rules regulations and guidelines , well , if you cant communicate , then surely lists of such rights will only serve to get stronger - seems to based a little strong ignorance in my view ....I think its a poor old world when demands are enforced on each other......as partners cant we all try to lower our guard and be honest ? Speak up without fear ?
After all be kind to one another ..... because lifes a short deal and youre a long time dead - thats one rule we cannot avoid - its the most certain thing in life.


Oh and dont forget - dont walk on the cracks in the pavement - the bears will get you .

[luvSophia]

Ya all are tryin to kill the messenger! I didn't write these, nor contrive these. I picked this "Bill of Rights" up from the cdwives.com site.

Well, it is presented as "the" Bill of Rights. Sounds pretty harsh and uncompromising to me. Not exactly a firm footing to try and put a marriage on. How about if every place where we see the word "crossdress" we substitute "golf"? or "hot rod building" or any other obsession guys seems to pick up that really irritates their spouses. Would it make any sense then either?

[Sammy777]

How about if every place where we see the word "crossdress" we substitute "golf"? or "hot rod building" or any other obsession guys seems to pick up that really irritates their spouses. Would it make any sense then either?

Very good & valid point.

My personal take on these 10 points is:

1. I have the right to know PRIOR to marriage/cohabitation - not to be lied to at the altar.
A] Yes you do, If he knows it before hand.
B] Lied to? OK, this is thin, but last I checked an Omission is not a lie. Just because he chose to NOT tell you does not mean he lied to you.


2. I have the right to be open and honest with any one I choose.
A] Yes you do, as long as it does not pertain to his CD'ing unless prior consent is given to you by him to do so.


3. I have the right to feel a range of all emotions without compromise.
A] You can feel whatever feelings you want, for as long as you want. As long as rule #8 is followed at some point.
B] This is not a free pass to go full blown Psycho-Bitch.


4. I have the right to accept or reject the practice of cross-dressing - including sexual acts.
A] To much of a cop out blanket cause.
B] Follow amended rule #5 below


5. I have the right to refuse to participate or be exposed to the practice of cross-dressing.
A] This is just a better written version of #4 and can include
"including sexual acts" from #4 above.
B] If you do not want to see it, then you should also be willing to give him time to do it privately.


6. I have the right to choose whether or not to stay in the relationship.
A] might as well reword it to: I have the right to leave you.
B] And as stated before, so does he.


7. I have the right to insist on therapy if choosing to stay in the relationship.
A] If you think he is mental then just use #6.
Because he might use #6 first if he feels you are that narrow minded to think of this as some disease he needs "curing" of.
B] If therapy is meant to mean "couples consulting" and both go and take part to work something out then that is acceptable.


8. I have the right to have open communication about cross-dressing - no elephants in the room.
A] So does he. And not just when it is convent only for you.


9. I have the right to protect our children from psychological trauma.
A] Another redundant rule.
Doesn't EVERY parent male & female want this for their children?
B] See #2A


10. I have the right to have my choices respected.
A] So does he

[uknowhoo]

Ya all are tryin to kill the messenger! I didn't write these, nor contrive these. I picked this "Bill of Rights" up from the cdwives.com site. I thought I had that stated. I'm not following it, I simply saw it and asked for some comments and thoughts! Please ladies! I'm in the same boat as a good portion of you! Just trying to find my way through life's maze... Many hugs ~ Liz

PS Sometimes it feels better with the girdle off

Indeed, we are all just trying to find our way through the maze. For that reason I specifically avoided attacking you as the messenger. That's why when I originally wrote "your list" I changed it to "the list you posted," to make it less personal. The problem is, this is a very sensitive area for many of us CDer's. The last thing any of us would want (whether we're in the closet, or have accepting partners) would be for our partner to adopt a posture so seemingly aggressive or unfair.

I'd be curious what members of the cdwives.com might think of the Bill of Rights (for both wives and CDers) which I posted. Better yet, post a link to this thread athere...


then hide!:hiding:

:D


p.s. I tried the url cdwives.com and got an error message :confused:

[Bridged]

The site is "crossdresserswives.com" I went to it yesterday. I don't think that the creators of that site share the same vision as the creators of this site. If you go to the site, read the "founders story" I think that sets the tone for the site. I'm glad i found crossdressers.com first!!!!!!

[Tasha McIntyre]

The site is "crossdresserswives.com"

I just visited that site.......wow - how hostile is it in there? Especially the founders story.

I hope i don't sound too critical but it looks like it was created by a bunch of feminazis, especially that survey which generally only gives pre formatted negative choices to the crossdressing questions.

[Raquel June]

I think the "Bill of Rights" section is the only part that's totally out of line, though. This woman's husband was a jerk, and she's the victim of trauma (probably a lot younger than when she was date raped at 18).

I did send her a 2000-word treatise on why she wasn't being fair and looking at the whole picture of crossdressing.

[battybattybats]

Perhaps in life we should all adopt a more open view to each others hopes and expectations ?


Actually I'd suggest the opposite.
The whole point of Human Rights was to create equality and fairness in a world full of inequality and unfairness. That is why there was the French Revolution and the American War of Independance, Magna Carta in the Uk etc etc.

Rights do not function by restricting freedoms except by defining that point where two freedoms meet where consent becomes required.

Rights restrict power of authority over others, never power over ones self!

What people need to do in life is learn to respect others decisions for themselves, to stop projecting our desires and expectations over others. We need any thing that involves the participation of another to be a matter of uncoerced agreement and fair negotiation, never expectation or convention or assumption. So to most of those false and unethical 'rights' the CD has the right to say NO to every bit as much as the wife does.

For too long people have been getting away with unethical behaviour in relationships thinking that it is ok, but it is not remotely ok and society needs to utterly alter the way it looks at relationships to create fairness and decency and equality.

Sure it's especially hard to handle things when someone close to you makes a decision for themselves that is not what you wanted them to decide and the closer they are the harder it is to handle.

Yet it is something every individual must learn to accept! Parents must accept the choices of their grown-up children and children those of their parents n matter how much they'd rather they were different.

And marriages and the like are no different!

All Human Rights (yep, even the Yogyakarta Principles on sex and gender rights!) exist IN relationships.

So each partner has the freedom to decide for themselves! Each partner cannot impose choices on the other! No mutual activity or decision without uncoerced consent!

Sure that means people have to work harder, negotiate more, communicate more and put up with their partner making their own decisions for themselves but tough, anything less is injustice.

The vast majority of the worlds problems involve failure to respect the rights freedoms and choices of other people for themselves.

[ReineD]

:Just a quick exploration of the site provides tremendous insight, at least to me, the concerns, feelings, and questions of those very special women in your life that don't know.

Dawn, CDwives.com is for women who CANNOT or WILL NOT support crossdressing. The site focuses on the wives' feelings of shock, anger, pain, grief, embarrassment, etc., without seemingly making any attempt to move beyond these negative feelings and without considering the feelings of their CDing SOs!

The following statement, taken from the site's mission statement, asks wives who ARE prepared to support the crossdressing to go elsewhere!


If you are looking for a network of women who actively assist their partners, please visit our resource page for links to [other] sites for women who have made the decision to support their partners.

The CDwives.com bill of rights does not make an allowance for an equal marital partnership. Instead, it is designed to rationalize intolerance! The entire site has a very angry tone, which IMO is not representative of the majority of wive's position on CDing.

If you would like a more balanced insight into the feelings GGs experience when the CDing is kept from them, please visit this link in the Loved Ones section. "Not telling/lies and hiding things from a GG's POV" (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90231)

Someone posted a link earlier to the Tri Ess Bill of Rights. It is also included in my signature. Even though IMHO it could be improved, I believe it was originally written to bring wives from a position of complete denial and non-acceptance to a more flexible attitude of compromise and willingness to respect their SOs rights to crossdress. It is an older document, written in 1997 and we do understand more about TGism today. The issue I have with this Bill of Rights is with articles 4, 5, & 7. Though valid, they do appear to consider only a limited range of transpersons: the CDs who primarily identify as males who occasionally wish to express a feminine side.

[Raquel June]

Someone posted a link earlier to the Tri Ess Bill of Rights. ... Though valid, they do appear to consider only a limited range of transpersons: the CDs who primarily identify as males who occasionally wish to express a feminine side.

I know there are some really nice people in Tri Ess, but "limited" is putting it mildly when it comes to their official policies and definitions. They only want hetero members who don't identify as TG/TS. I can't decide whether it's comical or just sad the way they say crossdressers should have a "woman within" while rejecting transgendered people.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I hope i don't sound too critical but it looks like it was created by a bunch of feminazis, especially that survey which generally only gives pre formatted negative choices to the crossdressing questions.

I know of feminists who are quite supportive of their trans partners, and I also know quite a few trans feminists, including me. Most of us are not overly fond of the word "feminazi", which is sometimes used by people who are of the mindset: "I can't force my secretary to wear skirts and ogle her like I used to? Damn feminazis!"


I know there are some really nice people in Tri Ess, but "limited" is putting it mildly when it comes to their official policies and definitions. They only want hetero members who don't identify as TG/TS. I can't decide whether it's comical or just sad the way they say crossdressers should have a "woman within" while rejecting transgendered people.

Heh. They say it's because they have a focus on "married heterosexual crossdressers" and that that group needs it's needs served. If you aren't part of their "focus" they suggest you go elsewhere. Problem is they're treating the symptom, not the cause. Why wait to get members when they're 50 and their wife just found their stash? They'd do better reaching out to young folks and preventing all the stuff partners complain about (with good reason).

Now some Tri-Ess leaders might say, "We have young people, they're joining." No they're not. They might have one show up for a few meetings but then they quit. When I could be the youngest person at Tri-Ess meetings at the age of 38, that is not a good sign, and it's just getting worse. Tri-Ess need singletons, they need the unsure folks, the "middle pathers", they need the 20 year old crossdressers and they're not reaching out to them

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Raquel June]

Why wait to get members when they're 50 and their wife just found their stash?

...

When I could be the youngest person at Tri-Ess meetings at the age of 38, that is not a good sign, and it's just getting worse.

Funny :)

But that's probably the case with all support groups unless they're trying very hard to cater to the transgendered. There's a Dayton support group that doesn't really have anything to do with Tri Ess. I know several of the members because once every three months they come out to a club I go to a lot. I said to one of the long-time members:

"I was thinking of going to one of the meetings. I love meeting other girls. I guess I just thought it was mostly people sitting around talking about unsupportive wives, and I don't really have that problem."

And her response? "You haven't missed it by much."