mixed feelings about non-TG friends

[Raquel June]

I'm not sure to what degree I'm TG. I think bigendered would be more appropriate. I've been taking a low dose of estrogen for several months, but nothing too significant. I always wanted to be a girl when I was little, but I'm not obsessed with transitioning. It just seems like a big hassle, and it's what's on the inside that matters, right?

But I love dressing up and meeting CD/TG people. I've met tons, and most of them are really nice people. And there are so many nice people on this forum.

I just don't know, though. Many CDs I meet strike me as transvestites that are just looking for sex, or that just dress up because it's a kinky thrill. I just don't identify with that at all, and it kinda bothers me. I think of all the guys who like putting on a pair of panties just to get excited, and it's kinda offensive. It's such a polar opposite in motivation. You've got CDs who just want to look pretty and feminine as much as they can, basically worshipping the female form, then on the other side you've got CDs who see feminization as a humiliating thing that turns them on. I've met CDs who are really nice people, but they'll say the most inappropriate things -- things they would never say to a GG or a GM. I can't fault them for thinking that I'm like them and that's what I'm looking for.

I guess that feeling like a sex object is something women deal with all the time, but people are mostly nice and friendly to me, and I really only feel like I'm being objectified by other horny CDs. But sometimes they act inappropriately and it's directed at someone else, and that's when I'm just totally embarrassed because I think people just get the idea of, "Hey, that's how trannies act" and I must be like that, too.

I guess I'm just rambling on here. I know I shouldn't be mad at these people. Sometimes I think I'm the weird one. I mean, they know what they get out of crossdressing. What do I get out of it? If I'm not looking for sex, and I'm not looking for SRS, just what am I looking for? It makes me feel foolish. A lot of people just don't have a clue why I would dress up and be social if I'm not trying to hook up. They think I'm a big tease or that I think I'm too good for them. I guess I don't know why I do it either.

I just get frustrated. That's when I back off and tell myself that I'm just dressing up because it's fun. And sometimes that's true, because it is fun.

Maybe I'm just lonely. I haven't had a date in 6 months. I haven't had a relationship in a year.

[Jamie S.]

I feel similarly as well. Alot of us are stuck in this TG limbo where we don't feel a connection between CD's who feel it is more of a hobby or sexual turn on (not that there's anything wrong with that, just not my bag) and those who are willing and able to transition into womanhood.

I've spoken to CD's who say highly innappropriate things without asking if it is appropriate to speak that way (won't go into specifics for the sake of decency) whether it is simple lack of manners or because it is a turn on to them to do so. I've also spoken to many condescending and rude TS's who adhere to a mentality that there are certain criteria that define or exclude you from truly being a woman in your heart. I know I am a woman and hope to someday physically be one, but I do not feel that there is only a limited scale with which to define what constitutes a woman.

The point I'm trying to make by stating the above is that because of my experiences on these sides of the transgendered spectrum, I feel a horrible loneliness as well. If I feel isolated and alien to the people who I am most like, then what else is there?

Anywho, things like these have been weighing heavily on my mind lately, so I just had to throw in my 2 cents. I don't want to harbor or incite a negative reaction with my thoughts. It isn't my intention to criticize or insult anyone with my comments, just simply to relay my experiences thus far in relation to my current state of perpetual isolation.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Let me tell you about myself, no I'm not self obsessed but I have to talk about ME.

For many many years, I identified as a crossdresser. I did so because I had read that TS's knew they wanted to be women whey they were 3 or 4 and were attracted to men, and were stereotypically feminine in that they wanted to be homemakers with 2.3 adopted kids and a house in the burbs with a picket fence.

And me, I was a geek, I liked videogames (none of the girls I knew then did), I played D&D, and I was attracted to women.

But I wanted to be a woman, but thought I could never be one, because of the above, not even taking into account the financial stuff and family stuff.

That lasted for many many years, and then I read newer books and found out that it was possible to be a lesbian transsexual. And then I got online in 1999 and hung out in the various TG spots. And I realized that though I had similarities with CD's I also had some similarities with TS's. So then I started calling myself TG. But I still wanted to be a woman, but I just blocked it out of possibilities because I thought it would never happen.

But I did things, some of them started earlier. I grew out my hair, I got my ears pierced, I stopped wearing men's undies, socks and jeans. Instead of guy tennis shoes, I started buying women's skechers. I switched my watch to a women's watch, I began shaping my brows, I wore a charm bracelet.

I joined Tri-Ess. And pretty much that was when I figured out I was a TS, though I didn't identify as one because I thought I could never do it. And if you can never do it, and don't do the things TS's do, some TS's will call you a "wannabe" Which happened to me. Anyway at Tri-Ess everyone kept asking me, "how long have you been on hormones" or "you're transitioning right? No? I thought you were."

Well, Tri-Ess wasn't really for me, being a bit younger than the average member and well as was said by one person, "that I was a TS who lied about being a TS and joined tri-ess" But I didn't lie. I didn't know. I wasn't for sure. Sometimes I had myself convinced that I was a "transsexual identity appropriating crossdresser wannabe"

I was lonely, and eventually I found a trans friendly lesbian IRC channel. I loved the people, I miss them still. I even got to be an "OP" But I felt guilty because I was the only non-transitioning (but wanting to transition) transperson there. And since non-transitioning folk really weren't supposed to hang out there, I quit. Because I thought I should be honest, and not "appropriate a transsexual lesbian identity" that I hadn't earned. Sigh.

So I was more lonely and without support, and then I found a message board, not this one but another. It was an intellectual place but a safe place to talk about my stuff. Anyway I whined a lot and wrote a lot and learned a lot and finally admitted to myself (and eventually my family) that I wanted to transition.

How does that relate to here? When I read the general MTF threads it pretty much solidifies my identity as a TS. Because I "think different", not better, but just "different" than the majority of CD's here. Most of whom are not the kinds of CD's you find in the support groups who are a tiny minority of the "dark matter" CD's you find here.

I'm not saying I don't have things in common with people who identify as CD's, because I do. I identified as a CD for years and I want the next generation of CD's and other transfolk to have it better than I did. and I want to "give back" in small ways in various internet places. If it wasn't for the net I'd be even more pathetic.

But here's the thing, I'm a TS. I may not be on mones or done electro because I don't have the money for such things, and I worry about social issues and passing issues, but I'm still a TS.

Does this help any?

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Nicki B]

I really don't find the us and them thing very helpful - but you're quite right, those attitudes are out there?

When you meet a lot of people, you realise, it's not black and white - we're all shades? There's at least a range that we all sit on (whether it's just linear is another question) and, over time, some of us change on it.

It's not really surprising that those at the extremes see each other as very different. But there are a great many of us floating about somewhere about in the middle, with an appreciation of what drives those extremes?




Whaddya mean, you're not waving, you're drowning? :D

[MJ]

i feel a lot like you. i do this because it's who i am. i too get offended when it's assumed I'm in this for the sex stuff ewww..

I haven't had a date in 6 months. I haven't had a relationship in a year.

increase you estrogen lol I haven't had a date in 4.5 years . I haven't had a relationship in 4.5 years .
whats a date ? hey Raquel keep doing what your doing it's for you and no one else

[GypsyKaren]

I think what has helped me the most in my journey is the belief that "it's ok to be myself." It's also ok not to know all of the answers (like what you get out of dressing or why you're the way you are about anything), the fact is no one does, and they're lying if they say they do.

You also don't have to do anything that you're not ready for or just can't do for whatever reasons, because it's ok to be different, it's your right. If others feel that your different circumstances mean that you're not real enough for them in their eyes, then do yourself a big favor and walk away from them because they're not worth standing next to. People who use their life as a litmus test for others should be avoided, they're so full of themselves that they might explode. Anyone who thinks they're better than you because they do or feel something different than you is an idiot, so feel free to put sugar in their gas tank.

Don't live your life by following others, there are too many "experts" out there who are lucky they can tie their own shoes, let alone tell you what you need to do or what you should be thinking or who you are. Answers have a way of coming to you, you just have to keep your eyes and your heart open so you can see them.

Karen Starlene :star:

[ColleenW]

Hi Racquel –

First I should say that I’m not TG, I’m CD, male and heterosexual, but I can identify with your problem. I think there are a lot of CDers that are out for the “kinky thrill”, and yes, probably some who are sex predators. But that’s not me and I’m sure not all of us. I really like women and epically the feminine, in fact I like them so much I want to emulate them as much as possible when I’m dressed. It’s not sexual or as you say “worshipping the female form” or a form of humiliation; I’m absolutely not looking for a date with a man when I’m dressed. (Don’t get me wrong, in male mode I find the female form very attractive.) It’s more trying to get as close as I can to that idea of femininity. Oh and you’re right, it is fun! :o

On the male side there’s an awful lot of coarseness and inappropriate behavior that goes on all the time that I don’t really care for. Lots of it is directed at women sometimes at other men. Basically, I guess, its men trying to be “macho” but really its just insensitive crudity. And I think it’s the same thing you’re experiencing only on the TG/CD side. I’ve not found any solution to the problem except avoidance. Usually when I’ve made remarks about inappropriate behavior or talk I’ve either been laughed at or insulted or marginalized.

By the way I didn’t find your post rambling, in fact it’s one of the more thoughtful I’ve seen. :)

[Anna the Dub]

I liked your post too and didn't find it at all rambling. I go on the CDs forum too, and sometimes I feel like an alien as I seem to be coming from, and going to, different places. Nevertheless, I do like to have a read and occasional post there, as it is just nice to be in contact with people who have something, however tenuous, in common with you. I prefer the Transsexual forum, as that is where I find the people I really identify with, but sometimes it can be a little quiet . As for a relationship? I am not going to say how long it is since I had a relationship or even a date. Of course, it doesn't help that I would feel uncomfortable having a relationship whilst I still have a certain unwanted thing between my legs, but there we are, such is life. Anyway, chin up, some of us are more in tune with you than you think.

[Zenith]

I don't have anything to add right now, but the insightful posts make me feel better...and like I'm not the only one this way...
:Peace:

[Sarah...]

What do I get out of it? If I'm not looking for sex, and I'm not looking for SRS, just what am I looking for? It makes me feel foolish. A lot of people just don't have a clue why I would dress up and be social if I'm not trying to hook up. They think I'm a big tease or that I think I'm too good for them. I guess I don't know why I do it either.

I just get frustrated. That's when I back off and tell myself that I'm just dressing up because it's fun. And sometimes that's true, because it is fun.


Zenith is right. This thread made me feel better too. I've been frustrated recently myself. I'm in a committed relationship (and will be staying there I can tell you!) and I ask myself the same questions as you do, Racquel. Yeah it's fun but reading the responses here I'm more convinced than ever that I dress up to please myself, to make myself the same on the outside as the inside. So I don't need to reference myself to the outside world and other people if that's the case. And that makes me feel better.

Sarah...

[Beth-Lock]

I feel ambivalent about the whole thing, and my feelings at times are of being a blocked transitioning TS, a CD, or just someone with a female impersonation hobby. In short, I am all over the place. I think that is not too uncommon, especially if you are the sort of person whose psyche is more tolerant of contradictions than most, as mine is. Some people need to resolve these conflicting images in themselves and then go on to insist others do too. I cannot go along with the latter. It is just not me.

[Scotty]

I feel the same way, except that I have an SO with a masculine side and a great female friend that seems to know.

I feel the same way though....not in the lifestyle by any means but it's just a feeling..

[Raquel June]

Thanks for all the replies! I was just getting soooo depressed last night. But I'm feeling OK now. I'm going to avoid thinking about heavy stuff for awhile.

[Miss Tessa]

I agree. I have trouble even coping with most of the CD's (more like TV's) on this board.

They do it for some thrill and they often don't pass at all. And they do just what you said, they are interested in only the shallow, superficial outter aspects of femininity and alot of them are super horny that I have met on MySpace.com

They have no idea what womanhood really is.
It pisses me off, and they can't even see that they aren't passable or sexy or attractive when dressed yet they feel they are the baddest thing on the net.

I guess you could describe my newest romance as CD though. However, she doesn't look like some Tri-Ess Matronly man in a dress. She is a couple years younger than me (I'm 24) and she's super horny and VERY passable and might even be TS and not realize it yet. The only reason I didn't ignore her or slap the piss outta her when she started talking dirty to me when she first met me is because I couldn't help my own self. She's just very attractive to me and I couldn't pass up the relationship because we both had huge crushes on eachother from day one.


I, too feel like an alien in the Crossdressers forum. I'm TS.

[Holly]

...but reading the responses here I'm more convinced than ever that I dress up to please myself, to make myself the same on the outside as the inside. So I don't need to reference myself to the outside world and other people if that's the case. And that makes me feel better...Sarah, you summed it up very nicely :hugs:. We seem to get bogged down when we try to relate to one another by gender, or race, or religion, or intellect, or any of 1000's of other standards. It would be so much easier to relate to others as people, on a journey much as we are, in search of the truth about themselves.

[Miss Tessa]

There are a rainbow of gender varients.

These labels mean nothing in the true scale of universal consciousness because a CD might have some TS traits and a TS might not have transitioned yet or is in their own stage and manner of transitioning.

And some people choose different feminizing things to do to themselves.

Gender is not a binary dichotomy.It's a wide spectrum of many different levels of masculinity and femininity.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/q/qq_tgh.gif


The transgender flag is made to represent that. It is also designed so that no matter how it is flown, it is always correct, in recognition of us finding correctness in our own lives.

[Mariah]

might be rudeish here but: Cds in the end are just normal men wearing female cloths. why expect men to be wemen just by changeing cloths? lol :)


*know's this is going get delete like alway ah well :P *

Mariah

[Nicki B]

might be rudeish here but: Cds in the end are just normal men wearing female cloths. why expect men to be wemen just by changeing cloths? lol :)

Mariah, surely you can only speak for yourself. Is that really all you are - just a 'normal' man, in a dress?? :idontknow:

[Mariah]

nope I'm a evil kitty girl in jeans :P

unless you misses it, I'm not talking about TGs just pure cd's. I'm not a man, I just played one for 26 years *^_^*


mariah

[Nicki B]

unless you misses it, I'm not talking about TGs just pure cd's.

And how do you tell the difference, from the outside? :rolleyes:

[Mariah]

I don't know what you are getting at? all I did is point out that cd are Men that wear dresses. no problem there? bah some poeple just don't understand lol.

Mariah

[Miss Tessa]

You tell the difference from a CD or TV but compared to a TS woman from the vibes and mannerisms.

EXAMPLE A.)

My high class escort T girl friend of mine cought a date with some wealthy Republican who wanted to CD and dress in some of her clothing she had. She told me all about it. She said, "Tessa, you're a girl so you act kind of suave and natural and feminine with your voice and movements and attitude.......But this guy was dumb, he was just acting like a man in woman's clothing."


EXAMPLE B.) A prettie good example..

Another Transmother of mine at another time in my transition told me "The difference between CD and TV and TS and all other TG's is MOTIVATION.
So that means WHY do you dress?
.....And what are your mannerisms like when dressed.

If you're TS you either act natural and keep the feminine parts of you to show the world. And you ALSO .....*usually* try to acquire more female mannerisms and traits and attitude,voice, etc in order to increase passability. Haha Passability.

[Mariah]

I agree with your tessa, you put it better than I.


Mariah

[Nicole Erin]

Raquel, that can be frustrating, trying to find fellow CD friends but some just want to roll in the hay. I think they forget that some CDs might look really good dressed but underneath it is not a female body.

I don't mind my CD friends, but G. D. I have no desire to sleep with them.

And for the dirty talk, I always laugh when I hear that, I don't know why but it cracks me up.

I don't think any of my CD friends have really wanted to sleep with another CD, but some of our chasers out there, my gyod they are gross! Once I was in this club and some total creep who was talking to me stuck out his tongue and asked if I was getting hot by that. He was serious as dog crap on a wedding dress.

Raquel, hang in there. Not all people in our community are wanting to enact a porn film.
:)
Erin

[Kayla Shadows]

I think of all the guys who like putting on a pair of panties just to get excited, and it's kinda offensive. It's such a polar opposite in motivation. You've got CDs who just want to look pretty and feminine as much as they can, basically worshipping the female form, then on the other side you've got CDs who see feminization as a humiliating thing that turns them on. I've met CDs who are really nice people, but they'll say the most inappropriate things -- things they would never say to a GG or a GM. I can't fault them for thinking that I'm like them and that's what I'm looking for.

Hey Raquel.

I can understand a great deal of your thoughts here.There are some very nice people on here,other sites and out in the world but,I get put off by the comments and advances directed towards me and other friends.Its been from people who are more in depth in their dressing,to guys that just wear panties.Its just like the regular men who are like,"heres my number.Lets ****"." No hi or anything and right into being nasty.I dont identify with that manner.Who I am is who I feel I am and is not related to sexual pleasure


I feel similarly as well. Alot of us are stuck in this TG limbo where we don't feel a connection between CD's who feel it is more of a hobby or sexual turn on

I like the male to female section and its really cool to talk with others and learn but,I myself,also see that Im only able to relate to a certain extent.For me,it doesnt fall under a hobby,sexual or being just clothes.


I really don't find the us and them thing very helpful - but you're quite right, those attitudes are out there?

I hear ya.As long the the "us and them" isn't outright disrespectful but,gives others a chance to read and define who they are,there is some sort of benefit.Sometimes its unavoidable when trying to figure out where you fall under.


I've also spoken to many condescending and rude TS's who adhere to a mentality that there are certain criteria that define or exclude you from truly being a woman in your heart. I know I am a woman and hope to someday physically be one, but I do not feel that there is only a limited scale with which to define what constitutes a woman.

you are who you are no matter what they say.


I think what has helped me the most in my journey is the belief that "it's ok to be myself." It's also ok not to know all of the answers (like what you get out of dressing or why you're the way you are about anything), the fact is no one does, and they're lying if they say they do.

You also don't have to do anything that you're not ready for or just can't do for whatever reasons, because it's ok to be different, it's your right. If others feel that your different circumstances mean that you're not real enough for them in their eyes, then do yourself a big favor and walk away from them because they're not worth standing next to. People who use their life as a litmus test for others should be avoided, they're so full of themselves that they might explode. Anyone who thinks they're better than you because they do or feel something different than you is an idiot, so feel free to put sugar in their gas tank.

Don't live your life by following others, there are too many "experts" out there who are lucky they can tie their own shoes, let alone tell you what you need to do or what you should be thinking or who you are. Answers have a way of coming to you, you just have to keep your eyes and your heart open so you can see them

Very true words.You are absolutely right.Everyone has the right to be who they are.Just because we might not be on the level of the "experts",it doesnt mean we are not who we are.Some want to hold us up to their life as far as their decisions,level,ideas and how feminine they are but,its ok to be different like you said.Sometimes I see the idea of "femininity" and what "being female" is,expressed as exactly that..a idea.More of a imagined perfect woman rather than the reality,the diversity,individuality and many other things that do not fall under the "guidelines" of what being a person is.




Raquel, hang in there. Not all people in our community are wanting to enact a porn film.
:)
Erin

:yt:

[Nicki B]

You tell the difference from a CD or TV but compared to a TS woman from the vibes and mannerisms.

Really? :) Met many, then?


Another Transmother of mine at another time in my transition told me "The difference between CD and TV and TS and all other TG's is MOTIVATION.
So that means WHY do you dress?
.....And what are your mannerisms like when dressed.

So, the overt differences for the 'lower orders' are their mannerisms? :doh:


Labels only ever cause problems and offence, don't they. :sad:

[Miss Tessa]

I agree actually, because inthe perfect world I wish we lived in, no one would judge and offend others and labels would not exist for TG people because like I previously stated: We are on a spectrum, a rainbow of difference. Some humans (both cisgendered and Trans) are either extremely masculine, or all the way to the feminine side. Most are somewhere in between. We have different personalities and interests and motivations for why we are the gender we present as at any given time.

In a perfect world, TG's would be recognized as equal people, and employable too! And Everyone including and especially regular cisgender ppl would not judge or percieve TG people as absurd or sex objects or mentally ill or whatever they view us as in this world.

TG is very Ancient, and many ancient societies like the Hopi indians and the Tiano indians of the carribean, and the far eastern ppl recognized TG ppl as equal and actually special or even royalty or spiritual sages.

That's the same as how in England and Egypt, Dwarves (little ppl) were part of the Royal court or Priests even.
We just happen to be in a time and place of oppression!

[michelle2b]

Hi Racquel, based on what you have written in your original post in this thread, we are very similar. :hugs:

I too am not looking for sex (ie. with men, I am a lesbian) and I am not currently interested in SRS (I like my thing), and I get no sexual pleasure from the act of dressing up. I had struggled for many years coming to terms with all of this, one step at a time - first accepting myself for who I am (ie. unique or at least different from the majority), then understanding how I felt (ie. not fitting with the male world), then breaking the myths surrounding gender and relationships (ie. I am lesbian), ... then putting it all together (ie. I feel most comfortable being myself when I am on the female side of the gender spectrum). Life is too short! As someone said, "You were born an original. Don't die a copy."


Remember always that you not only have a right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one.
- Eleanor Roosevelt

It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are.
- E E Cummings