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View Full Version : Augmentationalist vs Immersionist (or...why did you call me "ma'am"?)



Fraye
10-14-2008, 10:38 AM
Hello,

Last Saturday I went out into public with my fiance and female roommate. It wasn't the first time I've been out dressed, but it was the first extended outing, the first time in the company of others, and the first time I have spoken to and interacted with other people. While overall the experience was very positive and exhilarating, I also found it gave me a lot to think about since then.

My fiance has been basically supportive since telling her; although she has naturally gone through several crises of faith regarding my dressing, she has gone above and beyond to understand and support this new (to her) side of me. She has gone shopping with me, helped pick out my wig, and given extensive makeup and mannerisms feedback. When we moved in with our current roommates, we felt we had to share with them, and luckily, they are good friends who were completely supportive. Indeed, talking about this with our roommates has been constructive and cathartic for both me and my fiance, since sharing our thoughts and feelings and concerns with someone other than each other has given us an expanded opportunity to open up and explore our own unique feelings on the subject.

After several exploratory runs of dressing and just hanging around the house, we decided it was time to go out and see the town. Luckily, we live in a suburb of Seattle, Washington, and getting into a friendly neighborhood in Seattle is pretty easy. We decided to go see a female impersonation show and grab dinner. The neighborhood we went to is not only tolerant of all kinds of folks, but it's practically expected that you'll see all colors of the rainbow hanging out there, especially on a Saturday night.

The experience, as I said, was pretty positive. No stares, no comments, everyone we interacted with was very cool. We were actually in the exact same area the night before, not dressed up, and it was a pretty mundane night, eating, shopping and so on. We went into the same store Saturday, and the exact same sales guy was much more attentive, to the point where he invited us after the show to a private club he was a member of, and then made the extra effort of tracking us down after his shift ended to remind us to come.

The whole experience gave me a lot of food for thought. I was very surprised to discover that my feelings were conflicted about the experience, since, as I read these words, I can see how it all sounds so positive.

My first conflict came with the repeated use of the word "ladies" in our interactions. On Friday, when we were doing our thing, the people addressed us as the usual mundane "How are you tonight?", "Have a great night," and so forth. On Saturday, with me dressed in full, it was "Good evening ladies," "Thank you ladies," and so on. Now, although my friends are very kind and opinions on my look range from "You look decent," "I wouldn't know you were a guy if I saw you out and about" and the classic (from my male roommate) "I don't know what to say, you look hot, but I don't want to say that because that sounds a little gay", I am under no illusion about me passing out in the world. I would like to say I could fool 90% of the people 90% of the time. But especially where we were, where crossdressing is not only generally accepted but actually expected, I'm pretty certain most the people we actually were interacting with saw a crossdresser, not a tall girl out with her friends. So the repeated use of the word "ladies" to me, was not because I was fooling everyone, but because they knew I was a crossdresser, and putting an emphasis on using feminine forms of address are, for lack of a better phrase, a courtesy of acknowledging the situation.

So that brings me to the immersion versus augmentation debate in my head. To me, immersion would be wanting to go out in the world, to pick a feminine name, to want people to be fooled into seeing a girl - to be a girl, and forget my guy self. Augmentation, on the other hand, to me, would be more of just me being a guy who likes to dress as a woman, and present as one, and even be treated as one, but, and this is important - would not mind, and indeed might even prefer that people knew I was a crossdressing man who just (hopefully) looks like a pretty woman.

I feel like I fall on the augmentationalist side of the equation. I mean, I don't even have a feminine name to use when I'm dressed, because I don't have ambitions of hanging myself physically, or living this way all the time, and I don't want to lose myself. I understand there are some practical considerations for doing so, but I suppose I'm still working a lot out, and am proceeding if not with caution, then slow and steady. I love to dress, and feel wonderful when I am dressed, but I love being a guy too. My fiance and I as a couple have determined that incorporating this aspect of my life into our lives means that I will dress, and indeed, will want to go out, and be in the world while dressed. Although we are still working out a lot of details as regards that, I find that my own sense of being at ease hinges largely on how I think people are perceiving me, for better or for worse. When I first started doing this, I was convinced I just wanted to fool people. Now, after having had this experience, I find that, oddly enough, no....I think I would feel better being known as a man who can look attractive as a woman.

If you've made it this far, thanks for bearing with me. This is my first time sharing my feelings out loud with people I don't know, and to me, another step into a larger world.

- Tye

VeronicaMoonlit
10-14-2008, 11:20 AM
Oh, how very interesting and I'm not being facetious.

I think I'm something of a "practical immersionist", I want to be seen as and treated as a woman, but know that people will know I wasn't born one. It's not about "fooling" for me per se.

You wouldn't happen to play Second Life as well? Lots of Immersionist vs Augmentationalist dialogue going on in regards to that.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

MJ
10-14-2008, 11:58 AM
I want to be seen as and treated as a woman, but know that people will know I wasn't born one. It's not about "fooling" for me per se.

like Veronica
i feel the same way if you get to know me you know passing is over rated. but being respected has a woman is nice. i take hours to get ready nice skirt hair done lovley pink top and i get hello sir !!!

Angie G
10-14-2008, 12:20 PM
You feel you want to be both at the same time that you and if it works for you than you go girl.:hugs:
Angie

Sarah...
10-14-2008, 01:06 PM
Well, interesting first post, Tye. Nicely written and clear. I suppose it's horses for courses. If you want to be known as a guy who can look good in a traditional female presentation then you'll have some educating work to do with people you meet until you have a circle of acquaintances who know how to address you.

I have the same issue from a different direction. I'm not nearly as out as you are, though working on it, and I need the people who know who I am to address me as the woman I am. It gets increasingly difficult to be addressed in male terms. Well, for me anyway - not for those addressing me!! So, more educating work to do for me too.

It'll be the same for many of us I suspect.

If you know what you want, and you seem to be well on the way, then surely that's half the battle? I'd say you and your partner are blessed with some clarity of thought that's really going to be beneficial for you both.

Sarah...

deja true
10-14-2008, 02:00 PM
Tye, what an amazing post....

You're bringing up issues, personal and global, for us that haven't been subjected to such analysis ike this in a long time. Rereading your post is going to be a pleasure for me and many others.

It's not the introduction section for your first post, but welcome anyhow...

A very sincere and warm welcome!

respect & love,

deja

:<3:

Tree GG
10-14-2008, 02:22 PM
...and putting an emphasis on using feminine forms of address are, for lack of a better phrase, a courtesy of acknowledging the situation....

...- would not mind, and indeed might even prefer that people knew I was a crossdressing man who just (hopefully) looks like a pretty woman.

...I don't want to lose myself....

....... I love to dress, and feel wonderful when I am dressed, but I love being a guy too. ...

... I was convinced I just wanted to fool people. Now, after having had this experience, I find that, oddly enough, no....I think I would feel better being known as a man who can look attractive as a woman....



What a wonderful outlook. If everyone could keep it as real, practical, respectful and yet still fulfilling as you describe, there'd be awhole lot less conflict about MTF CDing.

I love the not wanting to lose yourself, just enhance yourself part. No pretend or forgetting who and what God gave you....just embellishing it differently.

Welcome to the forum and hold on to that beautiful realism.

Sheila
10-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Tye welcome, welcome & welcome ............ A breath of fresh air is what you bring :hugs:

mykhelee
10-14-2008, 02:29 PM
While I look like a woman of a certain age when I am out, I pass. I fall into Khelli or she comes out of me. All mannerisms are there, was the only male in my home for many years. I have never been "called" on being a male in women's clothing. I wish to be treated as a woman and hope to be able to continue to pass. As we age the facial transformation can get a little tricky.
Like Tina Turner, I still got my legs.:D

Electra
10-14-2008, 02:45 PM
Very interesting post, Tye. I am somewhat in two minds about how I would like to be addressed. On this board I don't like being called girl or lady or the like; I am a male crossdresser and that's that. But if I am to go out dressed in public I would like the makeover to be so perfect as to fool people in shops, restaurants etc and they would refer to me as 'Lady' and perhaps a man might even ask me to dance if there's dancing :o.

marny
10-14-2008, 10:51 PM
Some of think it is a huge compliment to be called maam or lady!

Inachis
10-15-2008, 12:43 AM
...To me, immersion would be wanting to go out in the world, to pick a feminine name, to want people to be fooled into seeing a girl - to be a girl, and forget my guy self. Augmentation, on the other hand, to me, would be more of just me being a guy who likes to dress as a woman, and present as one, and even be treated as one, but, and this is important - would not mind, and indeed might even prefer that people knew I was a crossdressing man who just (hopefully) looks like a pretty woman.
- Tye

Tye,

Your analysis on the subject at hand is quite exhilarating, if not astonishing. As you have put a lot of thought into the matter. I think you might be onto something about augmentationalist vs. immersionist as it depicts the duality of people in the CD world. On one side you have the person that has identified that they are a (please forgive the cliche') female trapped in a males body. The converse to this is that one is a male who wears women's clothing. Neither side proves to be right or wrong, but merely who they are as individuals.

At what point does one draw the line between these two persona's? Does one eventually come to the realization that they have become the other? Further more how does one reconcile how they wish to be addressed? This is definitely food for thought.

I myself am newer to the forum, and have a great number of questions. There are still a plethora of hangups and hurdles that I need to overcome, and would not dare to venture out; even though I have before. So I welcome you to our group, and would love to here more posts. I am sure that they will be quite intriguing.

Coincidentally, I am an Augmentalist.


:thumbsup:

Sam44
10-15-2008, 03:11 AM
I see things a little differently since I have a beard and I'm not likely to pass and I'm not at all interested in makeup.

I do like trying to walk a little more femininly when dressed, I enjoy the feel of a strapless top or heals,...

But I'm still a guy who goes with my real name even if I am in a skirt or dress in public.

Still people treat me differently when I am in women's clothes: I get more "honey"'s or "sugar"'s. I get more smiles from women and the chit chat lasts longer than "Hi, how are you today?" "Fine and you?"

I must say that it feels good to be treated well as myself (and at times I feel most like "myself" when in women's clothes) and I usually appreciate the extra attention I get.

tamarav
10-15-2008, 07:56 AM
Welcome to the forum Tye.

I must say that reading your post was somewhat anti-climactic and that I really don't have an opinion either way except to say that I think you tend to over-think this whole phenomenon. Such in-depth thought and contemplation takes away from the simple well-being that crossdressing has for me.

Next time I drop down to Neighbors to dance all night I will look around to see if you are there.

Your new sis, North of you,

Tami

Fraye
10-15-2008, 10:43 AM
Well, thanks for the gracious replies and welcomes.

"You wouldn't happen to play Second Life as well?"

Interestingly enough, SL was the doorway that allowed my crossdressing to expose itself. It all started with the innocent question of "Why is your avatar a woman?" and went from there.

"Some of think it is a huge compliment to be called maam or lady! "

Oh yes, absolutely. I definitely prefer feminine forms of address when I am out and about trying to look my best. My own internal motivation for eliciting that form of address was what surprised me, not any dissatisfaction with how people were speaking to me.

"I must say that reading your post was somewhat anti-climactic and that I really don't have an opinion either way except to say that I think you tend to over-think this whole phenomenon. Such in-depth thought and contemplation takes away from the simple well-being that crossdressing has for me."

That's fair. For my own personal life, however, I can't really have the happy go lucky, devil may care viewpoint. Because I share my life with my fiance, and she has very real issues and concerns with that side of myself, it requires that I put thought and analysis into what I do and how I feel. It wasn't enough for her for me to simply say "I like it, it makes me feel good" and leave it at that. And to be honest (and I stress that this is for me personally, and not necessarily for anyone else's situation), that having to put that level of thought and introspection into it has made it better for me, because I have a better grip on what it means for me, how it makes me feel good, and how we can make it a part of our shared life without breaking us apart.

"Next time I drop down to Neighbors to dance all night I will look around to see if you are there."

Oh cool, so is that a pretty good place to go then?