The 70's are over Big Foot

[Sammy777]

[This was first a post of mine, but I felt that it deserved to be a thread of its own.]
[So I did some rewording & placement to it & put it in here for all to read.]

How many threads have started with the statements:

I can't shave my chest because........
I want to shave my chest but.............


Well sorry to tell you, But yes the 70's are over.......
A big furry chest rug is not a turn-on for most GG's of any age anymore.

So, unless your Wife/SO in no uncertain terms said she prefers the bigfoot look on you, please read on.

More & more guys are doing it then you might think.

Gym junkies/body builders, swimmers, club hoppers, male model wannabes, hipsters, the list goes on & on.

Want proof.... Have you seen any ad in the last 10yrs for mens cologne, jeans, underwear, ect., or ads for women that have guys in them that didn't have some hairless guy in them? [That btw spends way to much time in the gym]

Sadly yes, the Marlboro man is dead, I knew him well.

The last James Bond to have a chest rug was Sean Connery & no GG's I know of have complained yet, lol

Still don't believe me, then check out this somewhat funny but very true look (http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell23.html)
at what current women look for in a man in our modern kinder gentler P.C. world.


So, the next time your Wife/SO takes more then a passing glance at some shirtless shaved guy in a Calvin Klein ad ask them if they think he looks good.
If they say yes, you have a good starting point & something to work with.
"Hey, I though you said it looked sexy, blah blah blah.

[Tamara Croft]

Well sorry to tell you, But yes the 70's are over....... A big furry chest rug is not a turn-on for most GG's of any age anymore.It's not? really? I beg to differ... for me personally, there's nothing sexier than a hairy chest... I wasn't big on it years ago, but I do like it ;)

[LisaElizabeth]

Samantha,
You must be a little younger than some of us girls. The problem comes with how society percieved things during your formative years. I feel really, really odd if I don't shave my beard EVERY day! It just really bothers me. Now, both of my sons can do the 'scruffy' look and not shave for 2-4 days and be fine with it.
Another problem that occurs as you age is that your body hair gets a little stiffer and more wirey. so when my chest hair or leg hair starts to grow out the very next day, it is like a scrub brush. I have to shave the morning of my dressing activity or my leg stubble ruins my hose!
If I don't shave my chest the night before I go out, I have plenty of hairs sticking straight up out of my cleavage!!
Maybe I just grew up during a time where shaving anything but your face was frowned upon. I realize that times change and that 'clean shaven' bodies are ok now. It is probably why no one says anything about me shaving my arms on a regular basis.
I know that once I shave my arms and chest, my wife will only snuggle if I have a shirt on!! The hairs are just really sharp and pointed until they grow out for 4 weeks or so.
So once again, it depends on the time period you grew up in. Some of us find it hard to shave anything but our faces simply because that is how we were raised!! I'm certain we can change, just don't expect it to be over night!!
Huggs to all,
Lisa Elizabeth

[Sandra]

Well sorry to tell you, But yes the 70's are over.......
A big furry chest rug is not a turn-on for most GG's of any age anymore.




Really I bet a lot of GGs here will disagree with that statement. I like to see it both ways, a man with a hairy chest so long as it's not like a gorilla, or hair less, which is good because my SO hardly has any hairs :D

[Sheila]

[
How many threads have started with the statements:

I can't shave my chest because........
I want to shave my chest but.............


Well sorry to tell you, But yes the 70's are over.......
A big furry chest rug is not a turn-on for most GG's of any age anymore.

So, unless your Wife/SO in no uncertain terms said she prefers the bigfoot look on you, please read on.

.

Sounds a bit to me (and this is just my opinion), that some peeps will say/do anything to justify doing what they want.

Now me personally, I kinda do not mind either, but if you are asking me to be comfortable with you shaving your chest (you/your .... not meant personally), to enhance YOUR fem apperance and I have been comfortably snuggling into that said chest hair for X amount of years, then sorry but for me I think it would be a no go.

And I am not sorry to tell you, but that is not a generalisation of how we GG's feel and to use the excuse that



"Hey, I though you said it looked sexy, blah blah blah.

is an attempt at blantant manipulation:Angry3::Angry3:

if it is that important to you then try having an open, honest discussion with your partner, instead of using half baked theories to justify your wants .. PLEASE NOTE YOU,YOUR HAS BEEN USED IMPERSONALLY AND NOT AS A PERSONALL ATTACKON ANYBODY:D

[wearingtanpantyhose]

Well, thanks for giving us just another thing to feel bad about. Sure, more and more young men are removing unwanted hair but that doesn't give us girls who are basically under wraps permission to out of the blue shave our legs, pits, arms and chests. I'd love to be hair-free, but it can't happen in my current situation no matter my secret desires.

The fact is, some of us are in different stages of this journey. Some will easily pass in the daytime, some only at night from a distance. Some will be comfortable out and about with other girls even though they look like men in dresses. Others won't venture out past their homes regardless of their ability to fool the public.

If your situation allows you to go hair-free, then good for you. Some of us just can't suddenly show up to the company picnic with bare legs.

[TGMarla]

One of the problems here is the still pervasive idea in society in general that men are allowed to shave their faces, but are "required" to leave the rest alone. This means whereas you can be clean shaven on the face, the arms, back, chest, legs, and arms are off limits.

What a load! Men should have the same freedoms to shave whatever the hell they want to. I'm very glad I have no hair to speak of on my chest and back. Heck, the arms and legs are bad enough! This has nothing to do with the 70s or any other era. Men have generally painted themselves into a corner when it comes to body hair and clothing, whereas women have strived for and achieved a large amount of freedom when it comes to altering their looks.

I would love to shave my legs, but I know my wife would squawk. I would also shave my arms, but I'd again have questions to answer, and the result would be a very uncomfortable situation. I hate it.

[dancinginthedark]

I like to think of myself as accepting and fairly open minded but you are out of your ever loving mind to lump us together like that. And since many of us here came to age in the 70s they'll never really be completely gone.

I have been snuggling my face into that chest (my husband's) for 20 some years now. It's my safe spot and signals I'm home no matter where we are. I have absolutely no desire to see that disappear. I won't and don't feel badly about that. So sue me. :tongueout :strugglin

Now I can look at the sweet young things all day long with their hairless bods but that doesn't mean I want to snuggle up to it.

And if my husband did as you imply I'd :gg: him into next year.

[Tamara Croft]

This isn't about what men are allowed and not allowed to do (Marla)... this is about pushing something on to others for the sole benefit of ones' self, shaving the chest for fem reasons... and then generalizing that most GG's don't like hairy chests as a reason... which imho is wrong. If I'm used to my guy having a hairy chest, then all of a sudden he wants to shave it, an excuse like... well most GG's don't like it... just ain't gonna cut it with me... But then again, I'm all for.. it's your body, do what you like with it... because no one would sure as hell tell me what I can and cannot do with mine... and if you let people tell you what you can and cannot do, then more fool you, but leave off with the excuses.

[TxKimberly]

I would have to admit that my wife was mad as hell when I started waxing mine years ago. :(
Believe it or not, my chest was so darn hairy that even the ultra macho US Army used to give me hell during inspections because my damn hair was sticking out of shirt. (yuck!)

[Bridged]

I think it is all a matter of personal taste between both people is the relationship. I found out recently that my husband has wanted to shave chest hair for years, but never did, because he was afraid of my reaction. I had to laugh because, I prefer a hairless chest, but never mentioned it to him, because I was afraid of HIS reaction. The point is that, had we talked, the problem would have been solved years ago. So, I have to agree with the other girls that have said that trying to use a generalization about all GG's to justify the shaving is unfair. BUT, there are those of us who do like it, so, if it's something you want to do, then talk to her, that's easy enough isn't it?

[Tree GG]

Yeah, what Jess, Dancin' & Sandra said +

The young men shaving do so for whatever reason. My daughter has dated guys who shave various areas...one when he was in swimming competition season, the other just had some hair phobia. CDs want to shave to look like women, not to look like clean shaven men. There's the difference. I believe those ad pics you want to hold up as evidence aren't of men in drag.

My guy never had much chest hair...which was fine. God made him just fine the way he was. But he shaved....and then when I asked to keep one little patch of soft fuzz around the belly-button, he eventually shaved that too. Now he wants cosmetic treatments so his face can be as smooth as mine (a woman).

It's just like saying that a woman who wears slacks is a crossdresser. She's not always trying to present as a male gender, she's just wearing slacks. Not every man that shaves is trying to present as a woman. But crossdressers are.

The argument that "all the other men are doing it" doesn't hold much weight when you're not trying to look like all the other men when you shave. As Jess said, stop trying to twist things around and manipulate your spouse. Just tell her what you want and be honest with yourself why you want it. I know I'd appreciate being treated with that much respect.

[Sandra]

So, the next time your Wife/SO takes more then a passing glance at some shirtless shaved guy in a Calvin Klein ad ask them if they think he looks good.
If they say yes, you have a good starting point & something to work with.
"Hey, I though you said it looked sexy, blah blah blah.


What a load of crap, all this is doing is twisting words. Looking good and looking sexy is two different things. Well in my book it is.

[Sammy777]

Sorry, I didn't start the bigfoot thing,
I just saw it in here & it got combined with an image of "Bob" from "That '70s Show" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0165598/)

That's just how the mind works sometimes & where the title came from.



It's not? really? I beg to differ... for me personally, there's nothing sexier than a hairy chest... I wasn't big on it years ago, but I do like it ;)

One for the plus column, I never said all GG's didn't like it, lol




Samantha,
You must be a little younger than some of us girls.
The problem comes with how society percieved things during your formative years. I feel really, really odd if I don't shave my beard EVERY day! It just really bothers me. Now, both of my sons can do the 'scruffy' look and not shave for 2-4 days and be fine with it.

So once again, it depends on the time period you grew up in. Some of us find it hard to shave anything but our faces simply because that is how we were raised!! Huggs to all,
Lisa Elizabeth

Oh no, I'm not that young, lol,
But I'm not in the shave your face everyday group either.
Personally I really can't stand shaving my face, I use a trimmer most of the time & have that constant 2 day look.




Sounds a bit to me (and this is just my opinion), that some peeps will say/do anything to justify doing what they want.

I can't agree more & there is nothing that can be done.
If someone really wants to it they will find a way or excuse no matter if its right or wrong at the time.




Now me personally, I kinda do not mind either, but if you are asking me to be comfortable with you shaving your chest (you/your .... not meant personally), to enhance YOUR fem apperance and I have been comfortably snuggling into that said chest hair for X amount of years, then sorry but for me I think it would be a no go.

That is why I said:
"So, unless your Wife/SO in no uncertain terms said she prefers the bigfoot look on you, please read on."

If he has it & she likes it & he knows it, he's better off leaving it alone, lol




If your situation allows you to go hair-free, then good for you. Some of us just can't suddenly show up to the company picnic with bare legs.

Funny Thing.........
I don't shave any of it, I do trim it shorter sometimes but that's about it.

I have Robin Williams arms, oh it will be noticed if it's gone, lol.
I am lucky to not have a whole lot of chest hair though. Go figure?

[unclejoann]

Back in the 70's there was a champion body builder who used to shave his body. He eventually became Governor of California. Nowadays he calls people girliemen if they disagree with him.

Conclusion? Girliemen have hairy chests? Shaved chests are manly?

I don't know, maybe I haven't had enough coffee to think about this today.

[Rachel Morley]

I think it's all about personal preference. My wife hates hair men, especially chests. But I know several GGs that love that look on a guy. It all depends. I guess you have to find out how far and what your particular GG will go for. Saying "well, that's what guys do these days" isn't going to work in my opinion :2c:

[Di]

I think it is all a matter of personal preference. between both people in the relationship. I think having the reason , that's what guys do these days" isn't going to cut it.
For me I love the shaved chest:D

[Angie G]

Thanks Samantha I never thought of that.:hugs:
Angie

[Momarie]

I adore a man with a masculine hairy chest, many many women do.
Who are you to say otherwise?

And for the record when most folks see a guy with shaved arms, legs, chest and trimmed brows you're not fooling anyone.
The first thing to pop into thier minds is not "Oh there goes a swim champion".

Own it, don't make lame excuses for it.

[valenstein]

I'd love to agree with you but... I can shave everything else on my body with little comment from my SO, but she hates it when I shave my chest. I am not Robin Williams hairy either, so it's not that she likes hairy guys. Within hours of shaving, it becomes scratchy. Even if I shave everyday, it's still scratchy by end of day. I have even tried plucking, and it gives me maybe an extra day or two, but plucking/waxing isn't going to work for me..maybe my hair just grows fast, I don't know.

I understand how she feels, I wouldn't want to snuggle up to a cactus. She asked me about it the other day, since it's getting colder now and I think I will relent and let it grow until spring. Maybe pluck a few around my bust area if I'm going out and it's necessary.

[Daintre]

After carefully reading this thread, understanding both sides of the chest hair thing.....one thought just keeps going around in my head....Sean Connery as James Bond with the hairy chest was, and is a very sexy guy.

[DemonicDaughter]

So when any woman goes out and buys a pair of $200 shoes she should justify it by pointing out the fashion ads to her partner?

Doesn't that sound a bit shallow to you?

I, for one, like that my partner shaves but that is not to say I am repulsed by any body hair.

Either you sit down and discuss it with your partner like adults or you move on. No need to be sneaky about it.

BTW, those ads are geared to make people appear younger, not in reference to whether or not men look sexy with or without hair. Ask any actor, dancer or model and they will tell you they shave their chest to appear younger, it has nothing to do with any poll taken of women and the amount of body hair they find appealing or not.

[Violet]

I happen to like my partner's hairy chest. I adore his beard, too, and I get sad when he shaves it. He doesn't particularly like shaving, though, so he just keeps everything neat and well-groomed. He has not wanted to present as a woman thus far, and is interested only in bras and breast forms, so the beard hasn't been an issue for him.

But yeah, it's definitely a personal preference thing. I'm grateful my partner doesn't want to shave, because that was (in the beginning) one of my biggest hang-ups about his CDing. You've just got to find the right balance for you and your SO.

[ReineD]

As an experiment and just for fun, I googled 'hunks' with safe search off to see how many guys had hairy chests. The results turned up model sites and gay sites, with mostly young men in their twenties with awesome pecs and abs. Very few had lots of chest hair. I don't know if this is because the photographers feel that chest muscles are more easily evidenced without the chest hair, or if younger men just don't have as much chest hair as older men.

But, you can google 'hairy hunks' and turn up lots of sexy, hairy chests.

So my theory was blown out of the water. I was hoping to find a healthy mixture of both with the first search term, which would have more readily reflected what I think are women's preferences, at least based on past conversations I've had with female friends. There are women who prefer hair, and some who don't, and I disagree with making a sweeping generalization that women prefer no hair in order to rationalize shaving. The link you posted to Bill Barnwell does not make him an authority on the subject.

You do have a good point that a woman might take more than a passing glance at a shirtless, well-built guy, but I do not think it has anything to do with whether he has chest hair or not.

It has never been an issue for me either way. Sometimes it is nice to feel a smooth chest and other times I enjoy the hair. The absence or presence of hair is not what determines how sexy I think a man is, although a completely, all-over, smoothed-skin male is a turn-off because it reminds me of pre-pubescence and I am not attracted to young boys.

[smokey]

talking to girlfriends over the many years it's all over the place. yep, no generalizations are possible. yep, no excuses for shaving. just talk together.

me? i love those smooth shaved legs, till it starts to grow back and i'm sleeping with a saguaro. but that's easily taken care of.
but i also like some chest hair, hate hair on the back. would not like shaved arms.
i'm eclectic, don't dare put me or any woman in a box!

[Nicole Erin]

[I can't shave my chest because........
I want to shave my chest but.............

A big furry chest rug is not a turn-on for most GG's of any age anymore.



I can't always shave my chest cause it is so light and grows so slow that it would be redundant... :tongueout nyah nyah nyah nyah...

I want to shave it but I already spent an hour doing other beauty things...
I don't think my wife cares either way if a chest has hair or not, I am assuming, based on the "hunks" she lusts over, that she likes smooth chest.

So if someone shaves their chest and the wife doesn't like it, the hair will grow back yeah?

[MJ]

So if someone shaves their chest and the wife doesn't like it, the hair will grow back yeah?

the point is one should ask her first

[sherib]

I've been lucky. I didn't start shaving twice a week untill I was 35. I had a few hairs on my chest that my wife used to laugh about. After that it became funny, I had been shaving my legs 3 years before she noticed. Then all of a sudden she wanted a hairy guy. Which I never was. But she kind okay with it now.

[unclejoann]

I am hairier than my boyfriend and I love to shave myself smooth. I would never want him to shave, I like the hairy man (except myself).

[Jess_cd32]

.......... Sadly yes, the Marlboro man is dead, I knew him well.......

Oh contrare, this one is alive and well and there are still plenty of attractive GG's that still luv the look of the jeans, boots etc... .

[Lucypink]

One day I just saved it and when may SO asked, I told her the truth, that it makes me feel old, she understod and some days now and then I trim it short, and others I just shave it completely!!!... you know why.
The other day we where at a hotel pool and we made a poll of the hairy chests around, they where like 7 to 1 and the most hairy where old looking.... at least for our point of view.
I agree, the 70' are Long gone.
Luv, Lucy

[Elizabeth Ann]

I wish I could shave my now gray haired chest, which I think makes me look older than my salt and pepper head (but that is not the main reason).

I don't because my wife protests that it would be scratchy for her.

The thing is, she has, over our 30+ years together, progressively cut her hair shorter and shorter, as most women do. Over that same time, I have clearly and consistently stated my preference for longer hair on her, which I still think would be more attractive. She responds that it is, after all, her hair.

We have an uneasy peace about the cross dressing, so I have been reluctant to draw the obvious parallels.

Elizabeth

[Janie Gunn]

I think i's been said best by Tamara Croft, I quote " But then again, I'm all for.. it's your body, do what you like with it... because no one would sure as hell tell me what I can and cannot do with mine... "
I cant believe how some wives of some of the cd'ers here are manipulative, can and cant do, when its the man's (cd'ers) body. I'm not married so I dont have that problem, but I have never in my adult life allowed anyone to tell me what is right or wrong to do with my body and never will. I think the wives need to realize that whilst they may be married to the cd'er, the body is the individuals own, and it being up to the individual if they want to and are comfortable to. And yes, I shave my chest, arms, legs, (and think nothing of it). How someone may percieve me in regard to that is the least of my worries.

Womans preferences?! blaah! Mans ow body, dearys. It doesnt take a hairy chest for a woman to love a man. I'd want a woman with a bit of substance who could love me for more than that, and missing a hairy chest not make any difference.

Do what you wanna do, be what you wanna be, yeah.
(Because I Love You: The Masters Apprentices, 1971)

Janie

[Jazzmine]

Hmmmmn.....hairy chest
I'm 51 years and naturally hairy in most place on my body. Ever since I started growing hairs in late teens I was never really comfortable with it. And as I have reached every new decade, the hairs have got thicker and more wirey. I really don't like getting older and now, just to annoy me, there are some grey hairs scattering through my chest hair.
So it's decision time for me. If I do nothing the grey hairs will invade and I'll feel 'old'. If I shave it off I get a fresh start and feel young. Perecption is everything!
If I was a traditional male, I'd just live wth it, and get grumpy about it.
If I was a female I'd do the right thing and get rid of it - women will not suffer feeling old for anyone!
The only complicating factor is that my lovely wife prefers a bit of fursal on my chest. But considering she never asks me before making changes to her hair or body (except to ask if I like the results!) I think I can safely leave her out of the actual yes/no decision.
The fur has to go! At least I wil try it for a while and if I get the desired 'young' mood back, then it stays off.
There, decision made, and you saw it first, live on CD.com!!!
Hugs, Jazzmine

[Satrana]

the point is one should ask her first To ask for her opinion yes...to ask for her permission no.

As others have stated, women routinely make big changes to their appearance and do not seek approval from their SOs before doing so. To apply a different standard to men is simply sexist IMO. There is no need to make excuses to do what is already well within your socially accepted rights.

I think some CDs are taking the phrase "who wears the pants in your house" too literally.:doh:

[Margot]

I went for an ECG several years ago. The technician was pleased to see I shaved my chest as it allowed the stickies to stay in place. Nothing else was said. I think I blushed though:o
:hugs:
Margot

[Tamara Croft]

the point is one should ask her firstWhy? who's body is it? One assumes you mean permission... if that is the case, then there is something wrong with the relationship in the first place... one should NEVER need permission from another person to alter their body. However... if it's asking for an opinion, then that's different....

I turned an adult when I was 18, I don't need permission from anyone to tell me what I can and cannot do...

[Bridged]

I think the it's wrong to equate a woman cutting her hair shorter with shaving your chest. Sorry, but if the situation was reversed, can you honestly say that if your wife or girlfriend STOPPED shaving, it would go without a word from you? Think about the hairy armpits for just a minute. that's just my take on things. It is your body, you do have the right to do what you want, nobody is saying that.

[battybattybats]

the point is one should ask her first

Sure, so long as the rule applies equally to everyone and she has to ask everytime she cuts her hair or shaves or waxes her legs...

Except that it's actually a really important principle that no-one, not even a spouse has rights over another persons body while they are alive and capable of making their own decisions.

That principle is important because it was the crux of the Wifes right to refuse their husband sex. For a long time men could rape their wives and their wives had no legal recourse.

So the principle is enshrined in the law of many many countries as well as in the International Convention on Human Rights.

Sure such things can be up for negotiation if the person whose body it is wishes to negotiate but the final say on anything, from body-hair to sex to childbirth always belongs to the persons whose body it is.

If you agree to their preferance for you to not do something with/to your body or to do something with/to your body you better be getting something in return for that that has been fairly bargained and that you agree is worth as much to you as what you are giving up or going through.

If on the other hand its a matter of "if you do then I'll (impose some negative consequence)" then that is blackmail and coercion and not at all ok.

Unfortunately fair bargaining and respecting the rights of spouses is not something taught or valued in our current culture despite the fact that it is key to fighting domestic violence and emotional abuse in relationships so many don't realise that they are doing something wrong when they do.

[KathrynTX]

My SO doesn't mind that I shave my chest and stomach. "Take it or leave it" is her attitude to hair in those parts.

However, she is thrilled that I shave my legs and armpits. :D

But she doesn't like me to shave my arms because she loves holding them against her face when we snuggle. :o

All things I can most definitely live with. :)

[Jazzmine]

I think the it's wrong to equate a woman cutting her hair shorter with shaving your chest. Sorry, but if the situation was reversed, can you honestly say that if your wife or girlfriend STOPPED shaving, it would go without a word from you? Think about the hairy armpits for just a minute. that's just my take on things. .

It's all a matter of personal preference and perception. I love my wife's hair just the way it is. If she were to radically change it to something I didn't like then 'yes' it would upset me. Yet she wouldn't consult me first before making that change - she is in charge of her own hair, and rightly so. That is the point about all of this. Your body, you're in charge of it, you have to live in it. Ultimately, your self perception must come first.
Hugs Jazzmine

[Janie Gunn]

Quote "Your body, you're in charge of it, you have to live in it."
Yep, Jazzmine, 110% I couldnt agree more, thats exactly how it should be.
The partner respect the desires of the other re their OWN body.

Janie

[Satrana]

I think the it's wrong to equate a woman cutting her hair shorter with shaving your chest. Why? Hair is hair. Makes no difference where it grows. You are just buying into the conventional (and sexist) idea that it does matter where the hair grows and applying different standards to men and women.

This argument when it occurs in a CD relationship usually has little to do with personal preference over body hair. More often than not it is a proxy battle between a CD who wishes to feminize his appearance and a SO who is eager to stop this process. Both end up making excuses and dancing around the subject matter.

[luvSophia]

[QUOTE=Bridged;1469234]I think the it's wrong to equate a woman cutting her hair shorter with shaving your chest./QUOTE]

I have to agree with this thought. When a woman cuts her hair it's for different reasons. Different style, easier to take care of, getting rid of split ends, etc. When we shave (insert body part here: legs, chest, armpits, whatever) it's because it makes us look/feel more feminine. Sure, we can rationalize plenty of other reasons like it makes us look younger, it feels cleaner, body hair is an evolutionary holdover and on and on. But none of those are the real reason.

[Sheila]

Why? Hair is hair. Makes no difference where it grows. You are just buying into the conventional (and sexist) idea that it does matter where the hair grows and applying different standards to men and women.

This argument when it occurs in a CD relationship usually has little to do with personal preference over body hair. More often than not it is a proxy battle between a CD who wishes to feminize his appearance and a SO who is eager to stop this process. Both end up making excuses and dancing around the subject matter.

Well in that case so are CDR's ............ when you do not wear what you like, when you like .............. you as well are buying into the, social sexist stereotyping,........ so remove the plank from your own eyes before attempting to take the splinters out of ours:Angry3::Angry3:



Sure, so long as the rule applies equally to everyone and she has to ask everytime she cuts her hair or shaves or waxes her legs...

Except that it's actually a really important principle that no-one, not even a spouse has rights over another persons body while they are alive and capable of making their own decisions.

and just as equally important Batty is that I have the right to know who I am entering into a long time relationship with .......... and if I discover after years in said relationship that it is not what I bought into and am unhappy about it, then I have the right to inform who I like why I am unhappy and why (but I guess that will come under your
(I'll impose some negative consequence)" Statement) ................ Talk about wanting to have your damn cake and eat it.

If you were all open and upfront about your CDing before entering your relationships, then you would leave us little room or any for bleating on about liking the male apperance we became involved with. some days many of you just make me :Angry3::Angry3: with the selfishness that appears here. If you don't like that your partner wants to remain attatched to the male side that she was attracted too then do both of you a favour and part :Angry3::Angry3:

[DemonicDaughter]

Argumentatively, there are one thing wrong with equating a woman cutting the hair on her head and a man shaving his chest; men also cut their head hair without discussing it with their partners. I think the argument would be better to say a wife shaves her head bald as most men, do not find that attractive. :heehee:

Personally, my partner can do with her body as she wishes. I'm not in love with her body, its her spirit, mind and soul I find sexy, appealing and the reason I'm with her.

I DO have an issue with someone having to be manipulative in order to justify a simple action. Be an adult, shave it or don't. If you believe it would cause unnecessary stress in your relationship, discuss it. There's really no need to go through the whole "you look at shaved chests and find them hot!" Especially if, as it was pointed out by the original poster, that nearly all the ads majorly have ONLY shaved men!

[Rose-Petal]

I dont have alot to say in this thread but only I rather my man hairless if he be a cd-er or not... I just feels its cleaner and nicers for both partys and yes I'm on about under the arms and legs too.
However I agree that the SO should tell their partner all about their cd-ing or TG or whatever else he might be into. It's hurtful to find out years down the line. I found out 9 years later however i love my husband all the same.

Everyone has their own rights to let out such information and if they dont and tell you years down the line then expect to be kicked out the door. Ok I'm not saying tell them within the first few hours or anything silly but within the first year IF you think this relastionship is going somewhere.

[erickka]

Dancing said it perfect for my situation. My S/O feels the way she does about my gorilla fuzz. She loves it and would annhialate me for getting rid of her security blanket!

[Elizabeth Ann]

I had no idea that my analogy of a wife cutting her hair and a husband shaving his chest would provoke such controversy.

Are most marriages really such battlegrounds of rights and wrongs, control and retribution? Do most people really enter their home, that sanctuary from the outside world, armed with chips on their shoulders and ready to debate every clause of the marriage contract? This strikes me as an awful situation of potential mutually assured destruction. And in that war, the emotional weapons at hand are much more fearful than some argument of rights.

Personally, I would find that exhausting and incredibly depressing. I know my spouse wants me to be happy, and I her, and I don't think either of us calculates our advantage. Perhaps I do have the right to shave my chest, but that is really a moot point. My wife and I will discuss and negotiate our way through marriage, sometimes in anger, but hopefully never rending the safety net of mutual love and respect.

Regardless of a possible right to shave my chest, I haven't done it or asked her, in part because I don't want to see the look on her face. She works hard at tolerating my cross dressing, and we both spend some of our "rights" for happiness.

Besides, I long ago gave up most judgments of right and wrong. I attribute much of this debate to the sorry state of political discourse in this country. We can't just oppose the positions of the other side any more. They have to be evil.

Elizabeth

[battybattybats]

and just as equally important Batty is that I have the right to know who I am entering into a long time relationship with .......... and if I discover after years in said relationship that it is not what I bought into and am unhappy about it, then I have the right to inform who I like why I am unhappy and why (but I guess that will come under your Statement) ................ Talk about wanting to have your damn cake and eat it.

Not quite. You have the right to express your preferances at any time. You have the right to withdraw from the relationship at any time. You have the right to make requests of any sort from your partner at any time and to attempt to make any sort of bargain with your partner at any time. It is when you make the statement 'if you X then I'll Y' (example: If you shave your chest then I'll walk out on you and take the kids) as a threat or punishment then you are blackmailing and manipulating whereas the same situation could perhaps get you what you want by saying 'If you X then I'll Y' as a negotiated reward example: 'If you don't shave your chest then I'll wear that outfit you like to bed more often'. Right and wrong depends entirely whether its a fair bargain or coersion. You have the right to end the relationship at any time for any reason whatsover, even the merest whim with no justification given. But to make it a condition designed to control the others behaviour is a form of abuse.


If you were all open and upfront about your CDing before entering your relationships, then you would leave us little room or any for bleating on about liking the male apperance we became involved with. some days many of you just make me :Angry3::Angry3: with the selfishness that appears here. If you don't like that your partner wants to remain attatched to the male side that she was attracted too then do both of you a favour and part :Angry3::Angry3:

In a world without oppression of transgender your comment would be fair and valid. In a world with it then only the most idealistic saints or those who are strongly transexual manage that. Male children are indoctrinated, often with violence and psychological and emotional torture that any hint of effeminacy must be hidden and concealed at all costs. If someone beat a child about the head and ran around shouting names at them every time they sang in front of others for their entire upbringing and then later someone was to find they sing softly in the shower where they think no-one can here would a partner have any reasonable expectation that such singing should have been disclosed before marriage? Of course not, because we'd be able to understand that the hiding is a conditioned reflex brought about by torture and intimidation. But because our culture uses that torture every day we are blind to it, it's part of the daily background. So w think that a 'big deal' like CDing should be more important to disclose but it is the very thing that makes it a 'big deal', the social taboo, that makes it literally harder to disclose because the violence and name calling was not from just one abusive person but from an abusive society of adults peers and media.

You are expecting people who have undergone the equivalent of the brianwashing psychological torture on prisoners of war or the aversionn therapy torture of Gays ect of the past (which also had the same effect, causing depression, distres, guilt and shame and closetting and teaching to hide the behaviour but never curing the desire nor stopping the behaviour!!!!) to somehow ignore the weight of what they have gone through. That is thoroughly unreasonable to expect no matter how clearly virtuous it is for those who manage it.

I told my ex girlfriend the day things started getting serious. I am one of those few who managed it and even then I did not properly understand it or where it was heading but i told the complete truth as far as i knew at the time. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done and I'm an extremist idealist when it comes to honesty!

You can't just expect people to so easilly get over the indoctrination of society that forces them to hide this. Most, myself included, hide most of it from their own concious minds! It's just unrealistic to expect the honesty you want.

Just as not every man or woman who was abused as a child or raped confess this to their partners even when they suffer the long-term mental illness as a consequence that effects their later relationships.

Heck the vast vast majority of women can't even bring themselves to confess their real consenting sexual history in an anonymous survey with evidence suggesting they only admit to around 1/3rd iirc of their actual number of partners (and correspondingly men are equally dishonest exaggerating by the same degree) let alone to their husbands. 1 in 9 children in Australia iirc is born of the wife cheating.

One of the important things in conciousness studies is 'theory of mind'. This is the point where most small children realise that other people have seperate minds and do not automatically understand what the child is thinking or knows. This fundamental and essential part of social skill development comes about in the form of the childs earliest lies and these occur specifically when the child wishes to avoid anger or judgement. If the child does not learn how to lie to avoid such it is a very important sign of likely autism, aspergers syndrome and other developmental differences, learning disabilities or brain damage.

From that point on significant aspects of social interaction involve learning to conceal thoughts emotions and information, generally as a way to smooth social interactions by avoiding upsetting others feelings.

Parents often complain about children not knowing when to hold their tongues, like 'look mummy, that man's (funny-looking, got no legs, really fat etc etc)' and the extreme social difficulties many Aspergers Syndrome people experience because their brains are not wired for Theory of Mind and reading subtle emotions in peoples faces but are instead wired for high-end engineering maths etc substantially is related to their inability to judge what to conceal omit or lie about. They often become extremely socially withdrawn as the only way they can find to avoid the negative consequences of the reactions of others to their extreme unfiltered honesty.

As we grow the consequences of many forms of lying or of excessive amounts of lying are learned by many but not all of the children who have learned the importance of lying resulting in the keeeping of some lies as good and the rejection of others as bad. For some this is bounded by what they can get away with. For some it is bounded by whether it is a lie that avoids hurt and upset or one that deliberatly causes harm.

What we consider truly virtuous action requires both strong 'Theory of Mind' understanding so that other peoples emotions are well understood coupled with a near-aspergers level of honesty and the kind of subtle skills of diplomacy required to be able to tell someone their breath stinks of vomit and rotten sheep intestines in such a way that their feellings are not hurt and they feel greatful.

We commit a grievous error when we expect such a level of idealism and skill and natural ability from average peiple when such a combination is often rare.

It is good to encourage everyone to aim for an ideal but we must accept that a significant number of people are not wired the same neurologically and we cannot ignore that many people have been conditioned to reflexively hide this.

If many can't even be honest about their feelings with their own concious mind then how can you hold them to a higher standard even than that and one that most people, men and women, fail to live up to!

Let me return to peoples inability to be honest in some anonymous studies. The studies found that the more interaction the interviewer had with the interviewee the less likely they were to give honest answers. Instead men exaggerated and women reduced the number of people they had slept with in the past. Why? Because each understood the social expectations on them, men to have more partners and woemn to have fewer and each sought even in brief interview interactions to avoid being judged by the interviewer!

So a survey that was done via a form or computer with little to know face-to-face or voice-to-voice interaction resulted in more balanced figures where the men and womens numbers start to add up.

The social expectations of transgender people are equally clear and the natural human instinct, especially considering the clear social consequences experienced with every deviation from the 'norm' throughout childhood is to hide and conceal and lie to avoid such judgement.

It requires either extremely strong transgender feelings, great courage bravery and conviction, a lack of social instincts such as Aspergers or a lessening of the social stgma for people to ignore disregard or fight against such social indoctrination.

Aspergers is found to be much more common amongst openly transexual and Intersex people, either being more prevalant amongst them or showing that the numbers of non-aspergers people who are transexual and intersex still in the closet is dissproportionatly greater which is quite logical.

As more have the courage to overcome the social indoctrination the strength of the indoctrination on others is lessoned making it easier for more to do so as long as the trend increases per capita through each generation.

Ideally yes, the CDs should declare to their partners that they are CDs. It's certainly the ethical thing to do. However have you Jess never lied? Even if you have not you would belong to a rare significant minority.

You cannot expect an oppressed minority trained with punishment from an early age to be heroicly honest. These are still human beings as flawed as anyone else. It takes time of feelling safe from judgement or of increasing courage for someone to be willing to risk the love of their life with the truth. And it requires being able to face at least some truths almost always at least partially supressed from and hidden from the concious mind.

Plenty of black people whose skin colour was so pale as to 'pass as white' concealed the truth of their race (including one of Thomas Jeffersons children!). Plenty of Jews in WW2 Germany who could concealed their Jewishness. There are many examples. You are demanding and expecting the same sort of thing, that people openly and knowingly expose themselves to rejection, ostracism, violence, blackmail by disclosing something that they know is often decried and condemned. That is unfair. And by the time they trust a partner enough that they might be willing to disclose their dread secret they then are so attached that they risk losing the person they love because of it. Thats still unfair.

It takes a strong will, idealistic values at an extreme level and a willingness to risk all. That it takes many years to first gain the self understanding or sufficiently strong gender dysphoria to have the self knowledge and then the capacity to face up to being honest with their partner should be of no surprise.

If TG people are forced to hide, taught to hide, made to hide by threats and use of violence and intimidation then blaming them for hiding just because it as a consequence inconveniences or harms you is just kicking the dog when it's down, it's blaming the victim.

The world tells people they must not be TG and they can't do that so the next best thing is to hide it but when they finally have enough courage to share it with someone they love they then get condemned for not having been honest and suffering all the slings and arrows from the outset?

If you object to this dillemma, if you insist on subjecting people (or the people subjecting themselves) to the risk of rejection and suffering that comes from such disclosure and honesty then how much are you yourself willing to suffer for others? How much are you willing to risk and to sacrifice in order to alleviate the inequality and deconstruct the culture of oppression that results in this conditioned reflex of hiding? How much are you willing to share of the burden you insist these disadvantaged and oppressed people go through?

Because yes, the ethical obligation for them to do is to be up front from the outset, but you were also equally or even more obligated from the outset even before meeting your partner as part of the non-TG population to be totally accepting of TG without any reservation or discomfort and to oppose TG oppression at every available opportunity even when that oppression is by omission.

Did you live up to your obligation all your life? How much are you doing now to create a public acceptance of TG?

[Sheila]

Did you live up to your obligation all your life? How much are you doing now to create a public acceptance of TG?

Ask that queation of the CDR's themselves as well as of me .......... and look out for my post in there

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92132

Re my post number 17

[battybattybats]

Ask that queation of the CDR's themselves as well as of me .......... and look out for my post in there

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92132

Re my post number 17

I don't ask that of them because they did not live with the privelege and advantage of being cisgendered.

As hypocritical as it is for TG people to contribute to transphobia they do so out of desperate self preservation. Not an excuse mnd you. But a recognisable and common phenomena.

While the Cisgendered population only has ignorance from growing up in the status quo as an excuse for their maintaining the transphobia. It is great to see you are working on issues now. But to judge the CDs for not being upfront from the outset its comparable to ask of you if you opposed TG oppression before you ended up in a relationship with one.

Whenever a privileged group judges an underpriveleged group the differing degrees of power, of experience and of general psychological oppression must be taken into account. Judging women as less intelligent in the 1800's when they received less education and were condemned and often punished for showing interest or aptitude in such areas was invalid for example.

Judging indiginous peoples and ethnic minorities as stupid or lazy when they have to pass through racist bias and oppressive behavior through their education and discrimination in gaining employment is another parallel. And even when exceptional individuals manage to breakthrough that does not cancel out the obstacles in these peoples paths that are not in the priveleged peoples paths so my Great Grandmother being highly educated did not stop many women being denied a good education, it slowly improved the chances but it was generations before anything approaching equality in education came about in this country.

It is vital that CDs realise their obligations of honesty to themselves and to their partners and to reforming society whether from inside the closet or outside it. Its also vital that every single cisgendered person and cissexual person realises that they are the ones collectively that are responsible for the oppression and thus consequentially responsible for the CDs being placed in a no-win decision where many choose the moral decision of hiding and lying over the idealistic one of being honest.

Sure the CDs are responsible for their choices in those dilemmas but all those non-TG are responsible for them being in that dilemma in the first place and for instilling the guilt and shame and reflexive conditioning into them that can influence their choices.

As a person is only wholly responsible for decisions made that are made freely, uncoerced, no TG person can be held wholly responsible for decisions of hiding because they have been coerced throughout their entire lives in this decision.

The cis-folk might have grown up receiving the same messages of what 'normal' is but have not suffered the punishments for non conformity of gender expression/identity that the TG folk have lived with. As such they have far more choice and capacity to overcome such social indoctrination.

They also outnumber TG people and so make up a greater proportion of those who decide what the next generations social conditioning will be and therfore have greater power and therefore have greater responsibility!

[valenstein]

I went back and read this. Judging by what this guy says, he probably thinks women should be barefoot and pregnant all the time.[/COLOR]

So, the next time your Wife/SO takes more then a passing glance at some shirtless shaved guy in a Calvin Klein ad ask them if they think he looks good.
If they say yes, you have a good starting point & something to work with.
"Hey, I though you said it looked sexy, blah blah blah.

The other problem with this statement is that not so many of us look like models. I'm not going to put myself up against David Beckham, hairy or not. Secondly, I see attractive women everyday, but I wouldn't want to date (or sleep with them if you get down to simple urges) all of them.

[Rose-Petal]

BattyBattyBats Please love try and write something thats less than 2,059 words, 183 lines, My eyes hurt and I'm sure the mods dont want to read such rabble and for it to drag out that long.. *rollseyes*

[Sheila]

I don't ask that of them because they did not live with the privelege and advantage of being cisgendered.

Cisgender
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Cisgender (IPA: /ˈsɪsdʒɛndə˞/) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a type of gender identity formed by a match between an individual's biological sex and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1] In some organizations, cisgender has come to mean, "A gender identity formed by a match between your biological sex and your subconscious sex." [2]

Cisgender exists in contrast to transgender on the gender spectrum.

so u see depending on the definition you prefer, it can mean that "they do live with the privelege and advantage of being cisgendered."

you pays your money and takes your choice hun

[Jane GG]

[So, the next time your Wife/SO takes more then a passing glance at some shirtless shaved guy in a Calvin Klein ad ask them if they think he looks good.
If they say yes, you have a good starting point & something to work with.
"Hey, I though you said it looked sexy, blah blah blah.

I would be lmao at my husband. First I would say "I liked the guy's six pack, what are you doing about that?" Followed with a "the shaving is just so I can get better look at those muscles and that is what is sexy" After an eye roll, he'd probably get "why did you come up with that lame-o excuse? you didn't really think I wasn't smart enough to see that it was just an excuse to shave, did you?"

You see, if you try that technique, you will end up with the reaction from your SO that is good or bad. If bad, you are in the same place as before, because no, she didn't think it was as sexy on you as the Calvin Klein model. Only now, there no future in shaving. If you actually said "my chest hair is bugging me and I just want to shave it off", then your SO is more likely to 1. agree to it because she will certainly agree to something that seems to help your comfort 2. give you the opportunity to continue it. After you shave and say it is much more comfortable with your clothes, she will not see it as something you are trying to do for her because you must not think you are sexy enough as is, but it is a comfort thing.

[Raquel June]

Yes, plenty guys shave their chest. You have to remember, though, that the "hot" guys shaving their chests are very athletic, and a flabby guy shaving his chest isn't exactly going to get away with using the excuse that he did it because the guys at the gym with 0% body fat all do it.

Girls seem confused about what they want. Here we have a lot of women saying they like hairy chests. A lot of those women will also admit that a hairy back is not the slightest bit attractive. I can understand a lot of women liking a guy with kinda thick, soft chest hair, but do you also want him to have thick hair on his back, hands, ears, and butt?

The biggest problem with shaving is that it only makes you soft and smooth for about half a day. The next day you're going to have stubble, and no matter what their opinion on chest hair, I don't think many women really like a guy to have coarse chest stubble. So if you're going to shave your chest you better do it every day, or else wax/epilate it.

I went out with a girl a little over a year ago who said she wished I had more chest hair. I never shaved my chest when we were going out -- she just said she really liked my chest hair and kinda wished I had more. Then a few months ago the same girl called me after a year-long spree of online dating and said that a lot of guys shave their chest and a lot of guys are really hairy, and she really liked that I didn't have to shave and my back wasn't hairy.



I DO have an issue with someone having to be manipulative in order to justify a simple action.

Exactly. I can understand people not wanting to divulge their life story and TG feelings to everyone, but it's awfully lame the amount of effort people put into justifying their personal preferences to others.



BattyBattyBats Please love try and write something thats less than 2,059 words, 183 lines, My eyes hurt and I'm sure the mods dont want to read such rabble and for it to drag out that long.. *rollseyes*

The less literate members of the forum always have the option to scroll past anybody's posts they choose or even add people to their ignore list, but bothering to post "you write too much" is ridiculous. Batty puts a lot of thought into most of her posts and would certainly make my top 10 list of people who write things worth reading around here.

[Sheila]

The less literate members of the forum always have the option to scroll past anybody's posts they choose or even add people to their ignore list, but bothering to post "you write too much" is ridiculous. Batty puts a lot of thought into most of her posts and would certainly make my top 10 list of people who write things worth reading around here.

Batty also loses a lot of peeps because of the length of them which is sad because she makes some damn fine valid points ..... some of which i may not agree with, but she respects my right to hold opposing views while trying to make me see the error of my ways, just as I try to convert her to my simplistic views in return :heehee: ..... literate or not we all have a right to have our say unless of course the intention is for a literate CDing dictorship to take over a) the forum and B) the world :eek:

[battybattybats]

BattyBattyBats Please love try and write something thats less than 2,059 words, 183 lines, My eyes hurt and I'm sure the mods dont want to read such rabble and for it to drag out that long.. *rollseyes*

Sorry. Unfortunately some things need sentences to claim but paragraphs to explain. Also its part of my disability. When the 'brain fog' (genuine medical term lol) of my CFS is bad it becomes very difficult to be concise. My IQ drops by up to 40 points and it becomes hard to concentrate and say things simply. It literally can hurt a lot. Especially when it can be difficult enough to be sure my brain isn't crosswiring and typing the wrong words (I can end up not just saying but typing words completely unrelated to the one I'm thinking of) and keeping the meaning cogent and following in the right direction can odten be a hurculean task.

I do my best to be concise but unfortunately it's my disability that is the cause and when my symptoms are bad it just cannot be prevented!


Cisgender
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cisgender (IPA: /ˈsɪsdʒɛndə˞/) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a type of gender identity formed by a match between an individual's biological sex and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1] In some organizations, cisgender has come to mean, "A gender identity formed by a match between your biological sex and your subconscious sex." [2]

Cisgender exists in contrast to transgender on the gender spectrum.

so u see depending on the definition you prefer, it can mean that "they do live with the privelege and advantage of being cisgendered."


A crossdresser experiences being transgender even if others consider them cisgneder because they hide transgender so much that they pass. They may through much of their life gain the external advantages of being Cis but they receive the same messages as being trans and appear Cis precisely because they have receiived the anti-trans messages from cis society designed and evolved specificakly to force trans folk to conform to cis expression.

So while they may have external cis privilege they do not have that internally and so my point still stands.

Example: To a cis male phrase like 'be a man' and 'don't be a girl about it' or that a comment like 'you throw like a girl' or 'don't be a sisy' can easilly be dismissed as trivial or even good. But to someone secretly trans inside these are commands, admonishments, powerful peer pressure that cannot stop the trans feellings but easilly show that if you don't hide it you will be taunted and punished, that being trans is bad and expressing being trans is rewarded by overt intimidation and emotional, psychological and physical violence.

So as such no, these people may have some facets of external pasing-as-cis privilege if the hide being trans well so that they generally pass as cis but they still get every single bit of anti-trans conditioning and so do not benefit from the primary privelege of being Cis, that of being unaware of the pressures, of the harm done to trans people by cis-centric society, of not suffering from the overwhelming constant daily Cis-normative messages and clear oppressive Cis-normative intimidation that is the constant experience of those who internally are trans.

And sure some like to define cisgender and transgender specifically to exclude drag kings and queens and crossdressers from being classed as transgender by insisting that they do not count because of an inherantly binary bias and an insistance that Dk's/DQ's and CDs are totally unrelated to transexuals but instead are subject to purely psychological fetishes. It's as dismissable as the Autogynephilia nonsense and is not backed up by credible science.

Attempts to push notions that all CDs have entirely male gender identity and by pushing transgender to require strict gender identity rather than also gender expression to be included is just a political and bigoted attempt to marginalise crossdressers and the like from Transgender in just the same way that the HBS extremists attempt to discard pre-op and non-op and late-transitioning transexuals from the term transexual with their 'true transexual' 'classic transexual' 'primary transexual' and their constant railing against the very term transgender with their endless blaming of crossdressers and Virginia Price for their every difficulty in gaining public acceptance.

So the re-definition of cisgender to include many CDs is a divisive and dismissable political act of bigotry and under-the-bus throwing (see Trolley Dilemma and Footbridge Dilemma as well as ENDA)

Cissexual is distinct from cisgender. A CD is generally cissexual but not ever cisgender.

[Sheila]

Like I said earlier Batty ................. the definition/S are there ......... you pays your money and takes your choice luv:D

[Rose-Petal]

Sorry. Unfortunately some things need sentences to claim but paragraphs to explain. Also its part of my disability. When the 'brain fog' (genuine medical term lol) of my CFS is bad it becomes very difficult to be concise. My IQ drops by up to 40 points and it becomes hard to concentrate and say things simply. It literally can hurt a lot. Especially when it can be difficult enough to be sure my brain isn't crosswiring and typing the wrong words (I can end up not just saying but typing words completely unrelated to the one I'm thinking of) and keeping the meaning cogent and following in the right direction can odten be a hurculean task.

I do my best to be concise but unfortunately it's my disability that is the cause and when my symptoms are bad it just cannot be prevented!



I have to say that I give up reading alot of what you write. I have Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension (fluid on the brain) making my sight very limited. I am registered Partially sighted. I can read rather well but i find it hard to read alot becasue the eyes drift off to another line. We all have our medical conditions.
Ok you feel you have to write so much my brain really does hurt. I have looked up your CFS and it applies to alot of conditions not just one thing? I'm really interested in this CFS could you be so kind to Pm me as I dont want to hog this tread about your conditions.
:)