Who hates CDing the most women or men

[Hali]

It looks as if some Cders/TGs dont completely accept themselves, it kept me wondering how the larger society is viewing us or the effort the larger society is making to accept us....................in your own view who in the society find us weired the most is it the women or men.

[dancinginthedark]

[...].in your own view who in the society find us weired the most is it the women or men.

The uneducated. Prejudice has no gender.

dancin

[Deborah Jane]

I think it,s down to the individual.
Acceptance depends on each person themselves, gender doesn,t really seem to make a differance either way.
We are accepted or not by the person concerned, not by whether they,re male or female.

[ColleenW]

I agree with the previous two posts but I think the question was more general. In my experience I've found more women accepting of CD than men.

[Sheila]

I think it,s down to the individual.
Acceptance depends on each person themselves, gender doesn't really seem to make a differance either way.
We are accepted or not by the person concerned, not by whether they're male or female.

gotta go with that,
and sorry dancin, but education does not mean acceptance nor does it mean you don't think it weird, heck sometimes knowing about saomething makes it more wierd that somebody would want to do Y X or Z:doh::eek:

[dancinginthedark]

gotta go with that,
and sorry dancin, but education does not mean acceptance nor does it mean you don't think it weird, heck sometimes knowing about saomething makes it more wierd that somebody would want to do Y X or Z:doh::eek:


Maybe not Jess but until we educate them we haven't a chance of giving them the option of a different view. Knowledge helps us see that the what seems weird isn't necessarily weird at all, that it's simply an been an unknown until then or a different POV.

But yeah some folks will never change their minds. We do what we can but in the end it is up to individuals to chose if they want to accept someone's differences.

BTW thinking something is weird doesn't mean that someone cannot accept anther's right to believe the way they do. Acceptance is not the same thing as seeing something in the same way. It is more along the lines of respecting someones rights to feel and behave as they do.

[pinkeverything]

ignorance knows no boundaries.

[Lanore]

Being TG for as long as I can remember, I have accepted the fact that I am more female than male. A lot more. As for as who has a problem? I believe some fall on the CD or TG who has not accepted themselves and are looking for acceptance in others first. If you first like who you are, everyone else just has to find their own way of understanding who you are and some will never reach total acceptance. I also agree with Dancin.

Lanore

[battybattybats]

Though it is changing steadily for the time being women are less violent than men, so finding transphobia from women isn't quite as dangerous as from men.

[avril findlay]

I've always found that real girls are incredibley tolerant of CDiing girls.

[Nicki B]

The uneducated. Prejudice has no gender.


I agree with the previous two posts but I think the question was more general. In my experience I've found more women accepting of CD than men.

I'm with Colleen.

IME, a few men do seem to have a problem - but perhaps that's more due to repressing a side within themselves they fear to acknowledge, like some homophobia? And certainly the West Indian cultures seem to have more of a problem with the idea of a man 'demeaning' himself by wanting to be seen as a woman.. :sad:

Women finding it offensive is, IME, very, very rare?


Over 20 years since I came out of the closet, I don't remember ever having a really negative reaction from a woman. On the contrary, many are turned on by this plump, bald 60-year-old once his worst features are hidden behind satin and slap*. Even those who aren't turned on are very friendly and encouraging and several have asked me to go shopping with them.

But on the other hand, I've only had one or two strong negative reactions from men either, usually verbal, the worst being wig-snatching by a drunk. Once in 20 years I can cope with that.

So the score so far is something like women 100% positive, men 99%.

Who says we get a rough deal from society?

Katie B

(* Slap - British slang for makeup)

:yt:

This is NOT a major problem - the biggest problem is the fear in your head of what may happen?

[Maria2222]

I think women are more accepting, although they might not want to marry a CD. Some men are so full of hate for some reason, that they would resort to strong physical violence and cause serious injury to a CD without a second thought.
:sad:

[Genifer Teal]

I've had much more acceptance from women than men. I also think men are more likely to vocalize their opinion. I have even had a few women come to my defense. In general they seem to be more accepting.

Gen

[MarinaTwelve200]

It likely boils down to how they generally feel about Homosexuality--Unfortunately, Most of a large percentage of the population mistakingly beleives thad CD and homosexuality are the same thing.

Most women are open to gay guys, so I suppose more ggs would be more tolerent than guys. But women can be just as hateful as some men. I suppose it depends on the individual, the culture they are raised in and their degree of education or ignorance in these matters.

[Nicole Erin]

My experience is that women tend to be more accepting [unless it is their own man doing the CD'ing.]

Guys are more likely to try to pretend it doesn't exist, shy away, or get angry about us.

I imagine it is cause women are not as insecure about their gender ID, and if a man is CD'ing and wants to be a woman for any amount of time and on any level, it is like someone wants to join their team.

So, as a whole, I think non-CD or non-tranny chaser men hate CD'ing more than women do.

[Ballerina]

Men hate us.
Woman are disgusted by us.

Well, of course, I'm talking about those that do not understand and are intolerated by the thought.

[DanaR]

Most of the comments mentioned women are more tolerant that men, regarding crossdressing; I would agree. What I've found, over the years, is if you were to talk to many of these women they have no problem as long as it isn't their BF or husband that is CD'ing; then they might have a problem.

[Jilmac]

I have found women to be more accepting of CDers than men. I think men have the belief that a person must be gay to wear womens clothes. Most women that I've encountered have been very cordial, especially those who work in stores selling womens clothes. I have been to restaurants, taverns, and night clubs, shopping malls, coffee shops and bookstores, and the female employees treated me with the utmost respect. Men on the other hand, seem to look away or make comments and gestures when they see a CDer. Those guys don't know how much fun they're missing. :tongueout

[Hali]

Its quite nice to get some of your responses.

Women especially not our SOs find Cding exciting (kind of), while more men find it disgusting/annoying/shameful (that one of them is "demeaning" himself or changing into the other side).

Hi Genifer.

[Mydia]

The uneducated. Prejudice has no gender.

Quoted for truth.

[battybattybats]

It is worth mentioning that the most hateful transphobic views published in books and a lot on the net come from women.

Some of the radical feminists undoubtedly hate us substantially.
They've accused us of being spies of the patriarchy, that MtF transexuals transition so they have a female body all their own to rape and abuse, that FtM transexuals are lesbians in denial being mutilated for acceptibility and a whole host of repulsive hateful things.

Transexual pioneers were cast out of womens groups and organisations, some including death threats!

TG rape victims have been denied acess to protection and shelters and even blamed by othr women for inviting the rape be being transgender!

Even Germiane Greer has said such things.

Thankfully these people are a minority but they are a vocal one. and the UK organisation Stonewall has even nominated one for an award!

So there are women who hate us with an extreme hatred.

[Mydia]

So there are women who hate us with an extreme hatred.

That's fine with me...I hate them too xD

(^ That applies to ignorant men as well ^)

I don't care if it sounds mean...no matter how much ground we gain in terms of social acceptance (not saying that doing so is a waste of time by ANY means), there will ALWAYS be those who don't like us.

If they are going to hate me to the point where they want to kill me, for something as minuscule as me being trans (which has no effect on their life ;/), then screw them. They can die in the streets for all I care ;D

[Satrana]

It likely boils down to how they generally feel about Homosexuality--

All those who say men and women react differently to our gender presentation are missing this important point. What we witness as CDs in public is how women and men react to gay men because that is what 99.9% of lay-people believe a CD is. They don't know anything about gender issues.

Women have nothing to fear from gay men and indeed many think it is great to have them as friends as they can get an inside scoop on how the male mind works. On the other hand many men feel uncomfortable with gay men but since it is now politically incorrect to say anything against gays they will usually keep their mouth shut.

[Miss Tessa]

Women usually find more problems and reservations and also overt bigotry toward TG people.

They consider people like TV's CD's and sometimes DQ's as offensive and parodies of women.

And some feel they feel like being slapped in the face (as a gg I know said before) when they see a man doing womanly things.

Straight Men don't like TV's who are manly and wear lingerie really.
But alot LOVE CD's and TS and DQ's weather they admit it or not!
Yet they still make rude, ignorant comments like calling us "punks" and "sissies" and making us synonymous with gays buy using the Fag word to us.

On the inside they wanna jump our bones, much of the time even if they don't say it to anyone, they still see us as sexual objects like they see GG's as.

So since men see us as potential sex partners, I think straight women are more offended by TG's.

[Michl41]

I believe women are much more acceptable, unless that woman is your wife!

[battybattybats]

All those who say men and women react differently to our gender presentation are missing this important point. What we witness as CDs in public is how women and men react to gay men because that is what 99.9% of lay-people believe a CD is. They don't know anything about gender issues.

Women have nothing to fear from gay men and indeed many think it is great to have them as friends as they can get an inside scoop on how the male mind works. On the other hand many men feel uncomfortable with gay men but since it is now politically incorrect to say anything against gays they will usually keep their mouth shut.

Actually I think you have this backwards.

Most people who hate gays hate them because they dont fit into gender role expectations. They think that a guy who likes other guys must be like a girl etc.

That means all homophobia is a form of transphobia and that rather than hating us cause they think we are gay, instead they hate gays cause they think they are like us!!!!

[KATIE TV]

Most of the comments mentioned women are more tolerant that men, regarding crossdressing; I would agree. What I've found, over the years, is if you were to talk to many of these women they have no problem as long as it isn't their BF or husband that is CD'ing; then they might have a problem.

I think the point about women being more tolerant, unless it's their BF or Husband is not the whole story, I think the problem a lot of them have is not the cross dressing but the deceite of their partner in not telling them in the first place, So when they do find out they may find it dificult to except and there is a loss of trust.

[Sandra]

Katie I totally agree with you. A lot of cders just can't seem to accept it isn't the cding that the wife /gf has the issue with but the lies and feeling as though their partner could not trust them enough to tell them.

[anouk]

Unable to tell who hates the cd:s more I represent some thoughts about the reasons for that.

Men tend to regard us as betrayers of macho brothers. We also may be regarded as pathetic and ridiculous losers in the ever lasting competition among macho men. On the other hand they want to keep their affinity to feminine things “clean”, because the issue is in fact quite delicate for them – and maybe they are worried that especially after heavy drinking they may not hit the right target….:eek:
Homophobia and -hatred among these men have similar sources and many times all cd:s are regarded as gays. In this respect education may get some results, but not among the majority of rednecks, who don’t want to hear the facts that might make them to change their attitudes.

The women hate us for several different reasons. One type is a basic fear for anything “odd”: “Perhaps that weirdo is coming to rape me….” The others may think that the men should be “real men”, and we somehow mess this clarity. The third source of hatred is the fear that a cd can be even more feminine than the women themselves. Also the hatred among the ultra feminists may be related to that, although it is articulated in feministic jargon.

If the so of cd finds out the issue after five years marriage, I wouldn’t blame only her, if she gets mad about it… Fortunately there are quite many women that can be very supportive, warm and friendly. The other men outside the gay and trans-world very seldom are.

The third group of people that seems to hate cd:s is at least here in Finland a quite small but very noisy group of transsexuals (only few of all ts:s even here!!). Their main premise is that because not every ts is passable at least at first, the cd:s (which are all unpassable according this liturgy) disturbs their lives and image by showing up publicly. They seem to “know” that crossdressing is a mere hobby, cd:s are only weird and ridiculous blokes in dresses without a slightest idea of what it is to be a woman, there is nothing in common with cd:s and ts:s and so on. That attitude is in some odd way related to feministic (sometimes also militant man-hater lesbian) slogans and makes me very sad every now and then.

[Sheila]

So there are women who hate us with an extreme hatred.

As there are men :doh:

[anouk]

Well, I didn't say all women think we're weirdos and not all women hates us because we could be more feminine than they. I just tried to find the ways the hatred could be generated.

And I've met both ways of thinking here in the North. May be we are too much an isolated monoculture that has not tolerated things different from every day life phenomenons. And may be it's lack of education, again.

[Melanie R]

Ignorance breeds fear and transgender phobia among both women and men and especially men. Over my 28+ years in being out in public I have seen that the level of understanding and acceptance has improved. My wife and I do presentations to groups each year especially students studying to be therapists. We find that even among these graduate students many equate a transgender person as being gay.

[Marjory]

I find the younger girls tend to be more accepting and are even curious about the dressing. I've gotten into discussions with younger SAs about it. One even said "good for you" when I told her the pantyhose were for me. In a lingerie dept. one time I was told they could easily get something I like in my size by a younger( that's thirty for me) SA.

The older SA women(>60) are not so accepting but tolerate. The men, mostly in shoes, seem as though they could care less.

[charlie]

At the bars and nightclubs real women come up and talk, act normal, give advice and treat me as one of them. It is the men who are acting like homophobes and twitter when they make me on the street.

[battybattybats]

As there are men :doh:

Sure, my point wasnt that there arent men that hate as there obviously are or that there are more women that hate than men or that the women who hate us hate us more than the men who hate us.

I just pointed out that so far men are the ones more likely to murder us while women are the ones more likely to write a book or nominated-for-an-award newspaper columns or make a movie or create a website designed to express hatred for us and to spread hatred for us which might then encourage men to murder us or either to discriminate against us getting jobs, essential services or be accepted in society but there are some of each that do hate us.

My point is that yes, there are women that hate us. There are women who beat their children for being transgender http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/10/todays-battle_24.html and i'm sure there are women who rape and/or murder transgender people too as women do still commit acts of rape and murder and in increasing numbers!

There are even Transgender people who hate other transgender people (such as some of the extremists amongst the Harry Benjamin Syndrome advocates) and even those who rape other transgender people http://takingsteps.blogspot.com/2008/10/pieces-of-holes-trigger-warning.html

And every month there are more murdered transgender people, mostly by men.

Hatred is exclusive to nobody.

No group is free of hatred. No group is 100% accepting.

But there are differences between these groups currently.

Most importantly we can fight hatred effectively by following the paths of those who have fought other hatreds effectively before us.

[Andrea85]

I agree with what a lot of others say, but, I've noticed men seem to dislike CD'ing more than women. The majority of women I've come out to have been accepting, I hope my fiance will be in that list soon, but from what they've said about their guys, and what I know about my guy friends, they would freak out if they knew about me. I know several of the guys I know wouldn't want anything to do with me if I were to become a woman. But that's just my opinion on that.

[Vanessa Sheridan]

IMHO, men tend to feel threatened by us. They view us as traitors to our masculine gender, and the implication is that if we represent a loss of masculinity then perhaps it might happen to them, too. They're terrified of somehow losing their maleness (though how that might happen is still a mystery), and so they project that fear onto any man who expresses femininity.

Women, at least in my experience, find us much less threatening and are more open to the possibilities that we represent.

I'm speaking in generalities here, of course. Not all men feel threatened by us and not all women are accepting. But by and large, it's true that men and women respond in different ways. We have a lot of work to do before transpeople are widely accepted throughout society--but I believe in my heart that the day will come.

[Nicki B]

Most of the comments mentioned women are more tolerant that men, regarding crossdressing; I would agree. What I've found, over the years, is if you were to talk to many of these women they have no problem as long as it isn't their BF or husband that is CD'ing; then they might have a problem.

Because that's when the line's crossed, isn't it - when we become potentially a threat (to the relationship)?

If we're not a partner, then it's very easy to just include us in 'the tribe' AND that happens IME very often.


Some of the radical feminists undoubtedly hate us substantially.

True - but how much influence do these women have on the general population? Not a lot.. Can you point to any men likely to beat up transfolk, who might read such literature? ;)


Even Germiane Greer has said such things.

My case rests. :heehee:


the UK organisation Stonewall has even nominated one for an award!

Yeah - but lets see if she actually gets one, after all the adverse fuss has been made? ;)

[CD Susan]

I think that women are more tolerant of cd'ing than men are. I would not fear of getting beat up by a group of dissaproving women but I would fear of being in danger around a group of men who did not approve of what they were looking at.

[Satrana]

That means all homophobia is a form of transphobia

Yes you are quite correct. A femme gay is many times more offensive to homophobes than a gay who appears to be straight.

So lay-people hate us because they think we are gay but unknowingly what they are really reacting to is their distaste for a man demeaning himself by looking/acting feminine.

Which explains why many gays are not enamored with CDs...we drag them down!

[erickka]

The uneducated. Prejudice has no gender.

dancin

Right On there. I fully agree with this!

[Teri Jean]

I think Deborah Jane is probably right as it is an individuals tolerance level. I do think that women are in general more tolerant being they typically are more emotion based than men. Aren't we lucky to be more loving and understanding. Keli Hugs

[Raya]

Actually I think you have this backwards.

Most people who hate gays hate them because they dont fit into gender role expectations. They think that a guy who likes other guys must be like a girl etc.

That means all homophobia is a form of transphobia and that rather than hating us cause they think we are gay, instead they hate gays cause they think they are like us!!!!I agree entirely. Combine that with good-old fashioned sexism, and you'll also get a good picture of why femmy gays and MtF transgenders get so much abuse.

It's easy to find someone who'll agree that women and men are equally capable. It's not so easy to find someone who'll say that femininity is just as acceptable as masculinity, even among women! There's something about seeing a man sincerely "choosing" to be feminine that strikes most people at their cores.

Some people have built their lives playing this game of trying to be "real" men and women. They're used to people who play the game badly. They aren't so used to those of us who refuse to play at all.

[Vicki65]

The uneducated. Prejudice has no gender.

dancin

Wow!

The rest of the thread is superfluous. There is the definition.

[Nicki B]

Combine that with good-old fashioned sexism, and you'll also get a good picture of why femmy gays and MtF transgenders get so much abuse.

But how much abuse do we actually get, in reality? Nothing like what many here often seem to assume..


There's something about seeing a man sincerely "choosing" to be feminine that strikes most people at their cores.

Many of them really don't see us as 'men'. They may well know we weren't born female, but they can see our femininity and do react to it, on an instinctive level?

[battybattybats]

But how much abuse do we actually get, in reality? Nothing like what many here often seem to assume..



Hmm lets see.... just the stats I recall well...

Higher risk of being murdered than any other group, check.

Rape rates, 1 in 3 women, 1 in 7 men, 1 in 2 openly transgender, check.

Unemployment rate, extremely high amongst the out, legal to be discriminated against in employment in many places. check

Homelessness, 1 in 1000 - 1 in 6000 (estimates vary) of the population are TS, 1 in 100 to 1 in 20 are estimated to be CDs and about 1 in 10 homeless people (some stats rise to 1 in 6!) are transgender. Legal in many places to discriminate against TG people in housing. check.

Missrepresentation in the media? With the automatic presumption that TG murder victims are sex workers, with TS people referred to by their birth anatomy constantly etc and generally blamed for their own deaths thats another check.

Higher rate of bullying in school? check

Systemic discrimination in health, education, ID and other services. Check.

Not being covered by antidiscrimination and antivillification legislation in many places. check

Court cases where obvious injustices are let pass. Punishments for murderers, assaulters and rapists of TG people are often much lower than for cis folk and with ridiculous arguments allowed to ignore evidence (Examples include assumptions that dead/dying TG folk can manage to hide their own bodies, that they can be shot in cars from point blank range while coming on to someone when forensic evidence says they were shot from a short distance while running away and lots of other blatently obvious misscarriages of justice). check.

Most people on this forum are closeted, white, working and middle classes (the homeless often don't have net access) and so suffer dissproportionately less than the rest of the community. But where disadvantage and discrimination intersect there is magnified discrimination.

Thats why most of the transgender people murdered this year are not white. It's more than racism. It's not Race discrimination + Transgender discrimination, it's Race discrimination X Transgender discrimination.

[Satrana]

But how much abuse do we actually get, in reality? Nothing like what many here often seem to assume..

Even if our media exaggerates violence making us believe there is more going on that actually is, abuse is more than just direct physical/verbal assaults.

Simply knowing that someone else despises me for what I am and thinks of me as being less than human wounds me. Knowing others think I am a child molester and believes I take part in depraved sexual acts wounds me.
Knowing people smile at me when I am in front of them and then openly mock me when they pass behind wounds me.

I think back to that famous line from The Elephant Man;
"I am not an animal! I am a human being!"

Psychological abuse can be every bit as devastating. Hate is a terrifying prospect to confront even if the hate is not acted upon. I feel scared knowing it exists and is aimed at me.

[Hali]

I agree entirely. Combine that with good-old fashioned sexism, and you'll also get a good picture of why femmy gays and MtF transgenders get so much abuse.

It's easy to find someone who'll agree that women and men are equally capable. It's not so easy to find someone who'll say that femininity is just as acceptable as masculinity, even among women! There's something about seeing a man sincerely "choosing" to be feminine that strikes most people at their cores.

Some people have built their lives playing this game of trying to be "real" men and women. They're used to people who play the game badly. They aren't so used to those of us who refuse to play at all.

This response says alot about how the overall society treats people who ask questions and refuse to conform in totality to the requirements expected of them.........a man must be macho.........a woman must be femme..........a tranny must like men............a CD is definitely a suppressed homosexual.......

yes i think most of the people who have serious distastes for CDs are usually those that have been rigidly oriented to expect black and white and no grey areas, a grey area in anything can cos them to loose their balance and they might not know how to react.

Most people expressed haterate for Cds partly cos they dont know how to react IMO.

Thoughts like "what kind of reaction would people expect me show towards CDs for me be seen as normal" always cross peoples minds not only when they meet CDs but also when they meet people different from them.

[Nicki B]

Ignorance breeds fear and transgender phobia among both women and men and especially men.

I think threads like this demonstrate more the fear WE can generate in ourselves to excuse hiding..


Higher risk of being murdered than any other group, check.

Rape rates, 1 in 3 women, 1 in 7 men, 1 in 2 openly transgender, check.

Batty, of course bad things happen - but not just to trans people. And you simply can't use stats like 1 in 2 open TG v 1 in 3 women when the overall numbers you're talking about is massively smaller - we're talking about an actual number which is relatively tiny, so any such comparison is decidedly unfair?


Psychological abuse can be every bit as devastating. Hate is a terrifying prospect to confront even if the hate is not acted upon. I feel scared knowing it exists and is aimed at me.

If all we do is terrify ourselves, what/who does it serve? Look around at what's said over and over again by the very many people on this forum who regularly interact with normal society - the problem is hugely in our own heads.

You don't see them starting threads about 'how I was beaten up today'? Absolutely the reverse?


yes i think most of the people who have serious distastes for CDs are usually those that have been rigidly oriented to expect black and white and no grey areas, a grey area in anything can cos them to loose their balance and they might not know how to react.

Most of the time, we're surely actually demonstrating more about our OWN feelings and expectations. :sad:

[TxKimberly]

The uneducated. Prejudice has no gender.

dancin

Wow what a killer response and EXACTLY what I was thinking.

I would have to admit though, that out of all the people I have shared with, the only person to ever react badly was a young woman (earl 30's).

[TxKimberly]

. . .
There are women who beat their children for being transgender http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/10/todays-battle_24.html . . .
. . . even those who rape other transgender people http://takingsteps.blogspot.com/2008/10/pieces-of-holes-trigger-warning.html
. . .


Wow batty, you are full of bright and uplifting thoughts today. I just followed your links and am now thoroughly depressed. Can't say much more with out hijacking the thread . . .

[battybattybats]

Batty, of course bad things happen - but not just to trans people.

Sure. Other people suffer crimes too. However to clarify the issue. What is better, playing russian roulette with 1 bullet in the gun or 3?

Which is better, winning on the toss of heads on one coin or the roll of snake eyes on a pair of dice.

Thats the problem with your argument, it pretends the odds are the same when they are very different.


And you simply can't use stats like 1 in 2 open TG v 1 in 3 women when the overall numbers you're talking about is massively smaller - we're talking about an actual number which is relatively tiny, so any such comparison is decidedly unfair?


Again your argument is not mathematically sound. Native Australians are a small group, they are proportionally much more likely to be in jail, to not reach the same level of education, to suffer domestic violence and to die earlier. This is found in most other native populations and is well studied. The fact there are less Aboriginal people does not refute the stats, it strengthens them!

Important parts of the stats for TGs is that they change depending on age of coming out, geographical location, race etc etc.

As I said before, most here are much safer than many. The issue of race and transphobic murder are covered on a host of blogs. Again the numbers cannot be ignored. This forum is dissproportionate because poor jobless and homeless out non white trans people are not putting net access and this site as a higher priority over a roof over their heads, their next hormone shots or food.


If all we do is terrify ourselves, what/who does it serve? Look around at what's said over and over again by the very many people on this forum who regularly interact with normal society - the problem is hugely in our own heads.

Tell that to the families of the people murdered this year. Did you not notice the spate of non-white TG people shot in Florida this year? The problem exists, it is real, and us here are the lucky ones who suffer less of the risk. And those TSs on the streets turning tricks to pay for hormones and to save for SRS, those bashed and driven from their homes when caught in panties who cant get any other work, those driven out of school whose education is permanantly stunted by viscious bullying, those dead each year and their families who wonder why less police resources are spent on catching the killer or why the killer if caught gets away with a smaller sentence or why the media kept calling their kid a prostitue without ever checking to see that they weren't or why the jury believed the killers lie about having been deceived when all the family and friends knew the victim always told people they were TG from the outset...

Those people are all relying on us, the lucky ones. The ones who managed to get through school cause we stayed in the closet, who managed to get decent jobs and by virtue of the colour of our skin and other cicumstances of our birth suffer far less risk than they and have far more power and influence and numbers than they to act on their behalf! And not try and white-wash over the truth.


You don't see them starting threads about 'how I was beaten up today'? Absolutely the reverse?

As I said, we are not in the main in the high risk group. Try reading some of this site http://transgriot.blogspot.com/search?q=funeral (the link goes straight to all the posts referancing 'funeral' to start you off) and this one http://takingsteps.blogspot.com/

Yes, most of us overestimate the risks and we need to work on that. But pretending there aren't problems, ignoring injustice is not acceptible either!


Most of the time, we're surely actually demonstrating more about our OWN feelings and expectations. :sad:

We sure are. How we convince ourselves it's safe to be out (which for most of us it is with just a few common precautions that most women have to take too) we have to ignore the fact that most of us here on this site have economic, social, educational and race privileges that protect us and that for each of those someone is lacking the risks they face go up!

And even though the risks non TG folk face also go up with each of those catagories being TG mutliplies them.

We, the lucky, the privileged owe it to those less fortunate to change the situation. To fight the hate crimes, to educate the public, to use our lower risks and greater power to level the playing field.


Wow batty, you are full of bright and uplifting thoughts today. I just followed your links and am now thoroughly depressed. Can't say much more with out hijacking the thread . . .

It's important to face facts even when unpleasant! But also to get perspective. Only through looking at the whole picture can we do so. There are many good success stories. Many victories. We are far more accepted in western society now than 50 years ago and with far less risks for coming out. And sure there are women who beat their children yet now their are people standing up for TG kids! Proscribing Hormone Blockers so the kids can decide for themselves once old enough which puberty to go through. There are mobs in Jamaica that attack CDs with machettes, yet in America they dont use electro shock 'therapy *cough*torture*cough* on TG people anymore like they used to.

It might be easier to deal with lies but its better to see the truth, the whole truth.

[Traci_Ann CD]

Sure, my point wasnt that there arent men that hate as there obviously are or that there are more women that hate than men or that the women who hate us hate us more than the men who hate us.

I just pointed out that so far men are the ones more likely to murder us while women are the ones more likely to write a book or nominated-for-an-award newspaper columns or make a movie or create a website designed to express hatred for us and to spread hatred for us which might then encourage men to murder us or either to discriminate against us getting jobs, essential services or be accepted in society but there are some of each that do hate us.

My point is that yes, there are women that hate us. There are women who beat their children for being transgender http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/10/todays-battle_24.html and i'm sure there are women who rape and/or murder transgender people too as women do still commit acts of rape and murder and in increasing numbers!

There are even Transgender people who hate other transgender people (such as some of the extremists amongst the Harry Benjamin Syndrome advocates) and even those who rape other transgender people http://takingsteps.blogspot.com/2008/10/pieces-of-holes-trigger-warning.html

And every month there are more murdered transgender people, mostly by men.

Hatred is exclusive to nobody.

No group is free of hatred. No group is 100% accepting.

But there are differences between these groups currently.

Most importantly we can fight hatred effectively by following the paths of those who have fought other hatreds effectively before us.
OMG......that's pretty bad, if ya ask me and as Kim said.....pretty depressing also

[Nicki B]

Thats the problem with your argument, it pretends the odds are the same when they are very different.

I'm arguing simply for balance... I don't believe maintaining a climate of fear helps our cause for being treated equally?


Again your argument is not mathematically sound.

If the number of TGs getting raped every year is in the dozens, whereas the number for genetic women is in the thousands, saying trans people are more likely proportionately to be raped doesn't truthfully reflect the relative level of risk?


We, the lucky, the privileged owe it to those less fortunate to change the situation. To fight the hate crimes, to educate the public, to use our lower risks and greater power to level the playing field.

I don't disagree - absolutely the reverse.

But the only way we can do that is to make ourselves more visible - how does scaring and depressing trans people work towards that aim? :sad:

Too many here seem to repeat their perceptions that it's too all just scary, to reinforce their comfort in staying in the closet? Surely, that's the whole slant of this thread?

[Satrana]

If all we do is terrify ourselves, what/who does it serve? Look around at what's said over and over again by the very many people on this forum who regularly interact with normal society - the problem is hugely in our own heads.


Not quite true. When hated is being targeted towards you for a specific reason then it is not we who are terrifying ourselves. I do not feel scarred of being mugged because I know that is a random crime, the mugger is not attacking ME, he is attacking a stranger who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. On the other hand hate crimes are targeted towards the individual. I know that while the majority of people are too polite to say or do anything, privately many feel disgust and disapprove of what I am.


You don't see them starting threads about 'how I was beaten up today'? Absolutely the reverse? As I said this is a psychological threat not a physical one. The damage is just as real. It is like receiving an anonymous death threat through the post. No matter how much you try to convince yourself that it is just a hoax, you cannot help but feel frightened and your behavior changes accordingly. I know because I have received such threats and I am a down-to-earth practical guy who should be able to rationalize these feelings away but cannot.

[battybattybats]

I'm arguing simply for balance... I don't believe maintaining a climate of fear helps our cause for being treated equally?


I agree balance is vitally important, but a climate of outrage and willingness to protect victims and stamp out evil is a good one, while one of complacence and ignoring that others suffer is iexcusable.


If the number of TGs getting raped every year is in the dozens, whereas the number for genetic women is in the thousands, saying trans people are more likely proportionately to be raped doesn't truthfully reflect the relative level of risk?

Again. Russian roulette, two bullets Versus 3 in a six shot gun means a big difference.
In a casino odds of 1 in 3 versus 1 in 2 is collossal. It is precisely the relative level of risk that is measured!

Example, on average playing russian roulette half the 3-bullet people are dead but only 1/3rd the 2 bullet folk are. In the casino half are rich rather than 1 3rd.

It's the per-capita risk. The disproportionate level of risk. Where not measuring how many rapists rape TGs compared to GGs but whether TGs are more likely to be raped than GGs. Both stats are still inexcusable.

1 in 3 women are raped?!?!?! Consider your Wives, daughters, mothers and Grandmothers knowing that 1 in every 3 of them has been raped, or rather every one of them has a 1 in 3 chance of having been raped or being raped.

1 in 7 men raped, consider how many men and boys you know and how many have been raped.

And not all those rapists were men, some were women, even rapists of men and children.

Theres a big difference though between 1 in 7 and 1 in 3! And theres a big difference between 1 in 3 and 1 in 2. Its a darn good reason for everyone to be careful when out t night, drinking, dating etc.


I don't disagree - absolutely the reverse.

But the only way we can do that is to make ourselves more visible - how does scaring and depressing trans people work towards that aim? :sad:

That's a cop-out. We can do a lot more than that.

We can donate $1 each to a transgender-accepting rape shelter. How much does one pair of stockings cost?

We can choose to vote for a candidate in every election that will help prevent TG job discrimination so less are dependant on abusive partners or working on the streets or living on the streets. We can do more. We can do something for the victims of sexual assualt today rather than going shopping en femme which will help the future. And we can do both and help the present and the future at the same time.

How many people are there on this board? Imagine if everyone registered here put just $1 to a Transgender shelter? I bet a lot of people didn't even read about the priest who was attacked who was defending and running such a shelter this year. A place that helps TG folk get on their feet and get their lives together and get off the streets. He was willing to put his very blood on the line for others. Should we just ignore those who suffer and talk about panties? Or should we consider actually making a difference?

And most of us here even deep in the closet could donate $1 or cast a vote for a candidate who will help protect all of us. While the number going out often and failing to pass or who come out to their friends and family are far smaller. Both are valuable. Both help. But one can be done from inside the closet!!!


Too many here seem to repeat their perceptions that it's too all just scary, to reinforce their comfort in staying in the closet? Surely, that's the whole slant of this thread?

Sure some do do that. Some though are in the closet because of work fears not personal fears. Some are because of social family fears not personal fears.
It's good for people to know that risks are not as great as they imagine but not to the point where we lie them and tell them there are no risks. It's good for us to fight fear not give into it but not to the point of naiivite.

Certainly it's utterly different for a white middle-class skilled worker for a large company in the UK than it is for a black poverty-stricken unemplyed person In Jamiaca to be out! One will likely be fine with little troubles if any and the other may be hacked to death by a machete weilding mob lead by the local police.