An obsevation and a question

[Kris Vasquez]

Hi everyone. My observation is that the vast majority of the Girls on this site are genuinely kind, intelligent and very interesting people. My question is: "Would most non-dressing males enjoy this if they tried it or is it that our brians are wired a little differently?" (little high right now)

[PamelaTX]

I doubt that non-dressing males would enjoy this site much. Depending on their level of acceptance I'd guess their attitudes would range from "creeped out" to "bored."

[Sally2005]

You mean CDing right? Yes and no. They would enjoy it for halloween as a lark, but not for a weekend out in full daylight, I think. I think you get some feeling for this as the cycles of desire to dress and not occurs. They might enjoy it, but I don't think they could comprehend why a 'real' CDer would do it.

[trannie T]

Do you mean would non-dressing males enjoy dressing or would they enjpy this website? Many non-dressing males might enjoy getting dressed as a novelty but would not enjoy it in the same way we do. I doubt that many non-dressing males would have any interest in this site.

[CD Susan]

I think that most non cd males would not enjoy dressing up the way that we do. Maybe dressing up for Halloween would be fun for some of these guys but they would not get the same thing out of dressing up as we do. Your brain has to be wired the right way to appreciate it as we do.

[carhill2mn]

I agree with Susan. They might experience pleasure by dressing once but, certainly not by dressing more often as their brain is not wired to experience pleasure from CD activity as we do.

[Angie G]

No I don;t thimk they would hun.:hugs:
Angie

[shani]

i don't think u are asking the question of c'ding but of talking, comunicating and understanding. i still can't beleive that there are so many other girls/guy's in the world that feel like me and you and you and you and are going through what we are going thru.... i know that sometimes we all feel so alienated and weird. but reading, seeing and comunicating with so many other girls in the same situation, like should i mention it, gays/lesbians 10 years ago were wrong for a better word, we are slowly becoming a normal and accepted part of the community, not a freak show. maybe if my boy turns out to have my genes, he will find the world a much more accepting and understanding place. thank christ i have found this site so i can learn, grow and be me!

[Deborah Jane]

I think you get some feeling for this as the cycles of desire to dress and not occurs.

We enjoy it because it,s wired in to us, but as Sally implies, when our desire goes thats how non dressing males feel anyway all the time.
The differance with us is, we may get something that triggers the desire to dress again, they never get that trigger!

[Jonianne]

I agree with Susan. I also believe most guys have thought about it or dabbled in it, but it just doesn't resonate with their being, like it does us. Some thoughtful and accepting males may even be curious enough to find the site interesting for a while, but it would soon get old and they would be off to pursue their own interests.

[Susan4]

This 'cycles of desire' notion intriques me .. I don't want to take this thread off topic, but as a couple of people have brought it up ... a) is there a thread in the archive that deals with this? and / or b) has a survey every been done about the length of these cycles?

Some of this site are, of course, 7/24 .. I've seen others mention that years can go by for them, a few have suggested they feel the urge 10-12 times a year.

I know there is no 'normal' .. but I'm curious about the range of experience.

Hugs

[Paulacder]

Non dressing Males would probably have absolutely no interest in this site. However they might have a interest in Males who do dress....Did I say that right....???? There I go again, thinking naughty thoughts.....

[Teri Jean]

I think Susan and others would agree that most men would not enjoy the site or dress as we do because they are not wired the same. I find it impossible to dress for work without at least panties and most of the time more. Keli-H :-) Hugs, Off to work

[Rachaelb64]

Most would do it as a prank, but it would have to be extra macho while doing :devil:

I know I'm just wired differently :tongueout

[TGMarla]

It's hard to say. I greatly enjoy crossdressing, and cannot understand why anyone would not. Maybe they should just try it......

[Terrihoney]

Recently, some coworkers were doing a bit for a talent contest dressed as the Andrew Sisters. Great fun, but I observed some insights. I did not volunteer as I would want to dress "too real". Masculinity was never questioned as the costumes and makeup were meant to look silly. Btw, they won 1st place. All in good fun, yet I wonder how many others wished that it was more genuine. The male 'I'm not gay' defense is much stronger than in females. Not trying imply a gay theme, we just have more pronounced feminine qualities which most men refuse to explore.
I'm amused by the fact that women can dress tomboy, hug or kiss in public, and know one questions their sexuallity. But a guy wears a puffy shirt (Seinfeld) and look out!

Defender of the fairer sex and squisher of spiders, but leave your hands off my pantyhose!

Terri

[Kris Vasquez]

Thank you all for the responses. As I sit here in my nightie and robe I am so happy that I find so much joy in doing this. This site is terrific and very enlightening. I hope everyone has a wonderful day.

[Tomara]

I think most men have probably tried on some type of womens clothing in there life out of curiosity , but we cross dressers I think are born with a stronger feminine side and in my opinion that is why we do what we do.
Tomara

[Veronica27]

The way we are brought up in our society and culture teaches us that males should not be involved in anything "feminine", lest we leave ourselves open to humiliation, ridicule and scorn. It is the concept of male supremacy that is brainwashed into us whether we are male or female. Females are not faced with the stigma of opposite sex association, and are free to try masculine activities, shop for mens clothing and so on without feeling any embarrassment or discomfort as they are expanding their horizons and elevating their status. I am aware of no equivalent opposite for the word emasculation, which every man is taught to fear. Those who crossdress have learned how to overcome that fear.


While much of the male supremacy attitude has diminished in recent decades, we are still left with some of the remnants of that type of thinking, and this is the reason why so many of us who do enjoy crossdressing feel the shame and guilt about our activities, and have such a difficult time leaving the closet and allowing others to know of our desires. Self emasculation is even more degrading than having it forced upon us, or so we are brought up to think.

It is no wonder then that those who do not have strong inclinations to crossdress will put such thoughts out of their mind, even if they enjoyed a one time experience at Halloween or as a lark. I think that if the stigma was removed from crossdressing, and the concept of emasculation was eliminated from our culture, many more men would indulge occasionaly in crossdressing activities, even if their brains are not "hard wired" to do so on a regular basis. The pleasurable sensations for a heterosexual male are undeniable, and the freedom to discuss and experiment without the risk of shame would surely lead in that direction. After all, women dress in masculine fashion on an almost everyday basis without giving any thought to the implications.

Veronica

[avril findlay]

Nope,
If you're male then you're not a CDr,

Love

Avril

[Tina B.]

The thing is, if you are not wired to do it, why would you? I mean if it is not something that makes you feel good, or satisfies an internal need, what would be the point? most of us do it because it fills those needs, and nothing else does. As mentioned when a non CD'er dresses up, they do it for comic relief, even Drag Queens generally go over the top. But a cross dresser does it in away the shows respect for the women we try to emulate. Besides those guys dressing as the Andrew Sisters probably didn't even wear the proper underwear!
Tina

[Nicki B]

I'd suggest curiousity as to what it feels like for the opposite sex might be quite common for both men and women, just to know a little how the other half live? :)

The difference would be it's not a need for them, that brings them like a moth to a flame.. :heehee:

[Veronica27]

The thing is, if you are not wired to do it, why would you? I mean if it is not something that makes you feel good, or satisfies an internal need, what would be the point? most of us do it because it fills those needs, and nothing else does. Tina


We have no choice over whether we are left handed or right handed. In the same way, we have no choice over whether our thought processes are more spacially oriented or verbally oriented. In recent years, the scientific and medical minds have concluded that we also have no choice about our sexuality. These things are "hard-wired" into our brain, and the differences can often be detected by modern technology.

A transexual is also born and not made as are a great many individuals who choose to simply live a majority of their life as their non birth gender without benefit of surgery or hormones. However, as you move along the spectrum away from transexuality and toward occasional, part-time or recreational crossdressing, I believe that we are less the product of hard-wiring and more the result of genetics, personality, environment and upbringing. We end up crossdressing because it appeals to our various senses and brings us pleasure. The only difference between crossdressing and any other pleasurable activity such as golf, model building etc. is the barrier brought about by the societal stigma attached to crossdressing that we are forced to overcome. This stigma causes us to question our motivations and conclude that we must have been "born to be this way".

However, you could also say we were born to enjoy golf, or model building or music or whatever else we like to do. They reflect our personality, aptitudes and the sum total of our life experiences, not some unique difference in our brain structure. As an occasional crossdresser, and not one who feels a life long desire to be female, or a need to release my feminine alter ego, I simply enjoy crossdressing because it provides a welcome and relaxing break from some of the stresses of otherwise having to always present myself according to society's image of manhood. It is refreshing, a unique adventure and complements my heterosexual interest in feminine beauty and appeal.

Thus I think that if the stigma could be removed from crossdressing, more men would feel free to discover the pleasures to be derived, if not on a regular basis at least some of the time.

Veronica

[LA CINDY LOVE]

I say yes some none dressing males would like this site, I am sure there are some males who never thought about dressing they play with there GF were she got them or they want to try on there panties like it and curiosity got the best of them.

A lot of none dressing males would hide our dressing from everyone because they are scared that someone would find out and think they are gay, a lot of so called straight males have a secret that they hide.......... I hide my dressing from everyone but my SO, and so do a lot of us here do the same.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Karren H]

So is the question "would they enjoy this site?". Or "would they enjoy crossdressing"..

I'd say that they would hate this site just like they would hate chatting about makeup.. Or clothes... Its just trivial and doesn't do anything for them personally.. No interest..

As far as crossdressing.... I'd say that IF and only IF they overcame their initial reluctancy to try it.. Then quite a few might like it.. But overcoming that initial fear of potentially being.... ...."Gay"!!! Is a show stopper for 99%, in my humble opinion..

[Kelsy]

This site and crossdressing in general would be very intimidating for most males I would believe but it is hard to tell. I couldn't say how most men would react because I have never truly known how a "real man "feels! In fact I have never known how a real woman feels either I guess I am just an "inbetweener"!:D When I was deeply closeted I would have placed a lot of distance between me and any thing like crossdressing or feminine becos I was in total fear of being outed!!

Kelsy:battingeyelashes:

[Donna tv]

I believe the only non dressing men interested in this site would be the admirers of those of us who do . Having been a Cd'er my whole life I cannot imagine what it would even be like, not to have that common interest we all share . I mean how wonderful is it to be a CDer. Cannot understand why every guy does not want to be like us.

[Always Susan]

Veronica 27 , Very thoughtful and well stated... Bravo!!!

Susan4 Start your own thread on cycles , I know I go through them.

[Nicki B]

A transexual is also born and not made as are a great many individuals who choose to simply live a majority of their life as their non birth gender without benefit of surgery or hormones. However, as you move along the spectrum away from transexuality and toward occasional, part-time or recreational crossdressing, I believe that we are less the product of hard-wiring and more the result of genetics, personality, environment and upbringing. We end up crossdressing because it appeals to our various senses and brings us pleasure.

Veronica, I fear you're in grave danger of giving deep offence - it's never wise to tell other people what their motivations are?

IME gender dysphoria is experienced to varying degrees - those I've seen, who feel it most (in all it's variants - body dysmorphia, social and personal) tend to need to transition. But that doesn't mean that for all the rest of us it's just a 'lifestyle choice' or, even worse, a 'hobby'.. :rolleyes:

If it was that simple, more of us would be able to stop.

[Terrihoney]

The Andrew Sisters wore their pants rolled up under the dress! A wig fell off, twice, and many people had to leave for the bathroom lest they pee themselves from laughing.
The stigma of a 'not all man' label keeps most from even talking about feelings much less trying on some undies.
I recently watched a special on LBJ. When he left home for Congress, a photo showed him kissing his daddy full on the lips! Imagine that today.
As a guy, I enjoy being so. As a woman, just lovely!
I think that many men might enjoy this site if no one found out!
They may like to dress a bit if they weren't taught that it's wrong for guys to do so.
Ever heard of a circle jerk? To me, that's more weird than liking silky panties.

Terri

[Satrana]

I think that if the stigma was removed from crossdressing, and the concept of emasculation was eliminated from our culture, many more men would indulge occasionaly in crossdressing activities, even if their brains are not "hard wired" to do so on a regular basis. The pleasurable sensations for a heterosexual male are undeniable, and the freedom to discuss and experiment without the risk of shame would surely lead in that direction. After all, women dress in masculine fashion on an almost everyday basis without giving any thought to the implications.


My thoughts exactly. The original question is only relevant if we assume that the stigma associated with MTF crossdressing was no longer present and men could freely explore their feelings on this matter. Since female clothing has a greater degree of sensuality about it, it seems obvious that it is much more fun and fulfilling than masculine clothes and would attract many men. If we look at how many women now routinely crossdress in our society, why would we think men would act any differently if freed from the stigma?

Even women would wear far more dresses and skirts if freed from the submissive stigma that the feminist movement imposed on women and the unreachable standards the fashion industry has created.

[Veronica27]

Veronica, I fear you're in grave danger of giving deep offence - it's never wise to tell other people what their motivations are?

IME gender dysphoria is experienced to varying degrees - those I've seen, who feel it most (in all it's variants - body dysmorphia, social and personal) tend to need to transition. But that doesn't mean that for all the rest of us it's just a 'lifestyle choice' or, even worse, a 'hobby'.. :rolleyes:

If it was that simple, more of us would be able to stop.

My post was not meant to imply that crossdressing is a lifestyle choice for everyone. My interpretation of the term "hard wired" as used in some of the postings on this and other threads is that it is a reference to gender dysphoria. We all exist at our own place on a wide spectrum that ranges from those who experience extreme gender dysphoria to the opposite extreme where there is no gender dysphoria whatsoever, and yet there is still a desire to crossdress. I believe that as you move along that spectrum, hard wiring is gradually replaced by a myriad of other factors including personality, genetics, environment etc. My mentioning that some who are hard wired choose to live full time (i.e. not transition) was not a statement that their actions are a lifestyle choice, but rather that given all the factors involved they choose to not undergo surgery or even take hormones for their own reasons. For myself and many others I have spoken to and communicated with, crossdressing is very similar to other "hobbies", and undertaken purely for the enjoyment to be derived. I am fully aware that that is not the case for everyone, but there does seem to be a reluctance on the part of the general public to accept that a man might enjoy crossdressing without there being some other "motivation" such as gender confusion, or gayness or sexual fetishism involved.

Veronica

[kelliboots]

No chance a guy who isn't a cd would derive pleasure or satisfaction from dressing in "girly" things. Most of society feels that gender roles are defined by male clothes and female clothes. The male machismo would definitely be offended by the role definition change. Just my thoughts.

[Tina B.]

My post was not meant to imply that crossdressing is a lifestyle choice for everyone. My interpretation of the term "hard wired" as used in some of the postings on this and other threads is that it is a reference to gender dysphoria. We all exist at our own place on a wide spectrum that ranges from those who experience extreme gender dysphoria to the opposite extreme where there is no gender dysphoria whatsoever, and yet there is still a desire to crossdress. I believe that as you move along that spectrum, hard wiring is gradually replaced by a myriad of other factors including personality, genetics, environment etc. My mentioning that some who are hard wired choose to live full time (i.e. not transition) was not a statement that their actions are a lifestyle choice, but rather that given all the factors involved they choose to not undergo surgery or even take hormones for their own reasons. For myself and many others I have spoken to and communicated with, crossdressing is very similar to other "hobbies", and undertaken purely for the enjoyment to be derived. I am fully aware that that is not the case for everyone, but there does seem to be a reluctance on the part of the general public to accept that a man might enjoy crossdressing without there being some other "motivation" such as gender confusion, or gayness or sexual fetishism involved.

Veronica

Well Veronica, if it is not hard wiring of some sort, I am surprised! I know very few men that suffer from depression, and lose family and friends because they can't give up Golf, or what ever other hobbies they may have.
Many of us call cross dressing a hobby as an easier way to acceptance of a compulsion, but while calling it a hobby the majority will admit they can't give it up. As far as for the eviormental aspect of it goes, that does not explain those of us that started at a very very young age. their might be different levels of needs for each of us, but that does not mean that is not hard wired in us to that different level. And if it is a chemical thing during pregnancy, maybe some of us just get more of those hormones that others, and that would explain why some of us need to good farther along the path than others.
Tina

[Violet]

If we look at how many women now routinely crossdress in our society, why would we think men would act any differently if freed from the stigma

Ahh, but see, here's my opinion: most women in jeans and pants aren't cross-dressing, because wearing jeans and pants became "the norm" a long time ago.

And I mentioned this in another post, but you all should check out The Sartorialist-- there have been a couple of androgynously-clothed men photographed recently, including one guy in a jumpsuit and heels. The comments have been fascinating to read, with a lot of people bringing up interesting points about the origins of high heels, being comfortable in your skin, and owning your look. I just found it interesting, and encouraging, to see these guys owning their looks, being who they are. And no one knows if they are gay, straight, TS, TG, CD...

As a GG, I don't think I can really comment on what a non-CDer may or may not feel about this site, or about dressing as a woman. It does seem to be extremely popular as a Halloween costume, though. Are some of them closeted CDers, thrilled at the chance to be out in public? Probably. But I also think the prevalence has more to do with curiosity about what it's like than poking fun or "This is the silliest thing EVER, isn't it? A MAN dressed like a WOMAN?" That might be the stated reason, but... I think there's a little more to it than that. :)

And I'm sorry this got wordy. I have a tendency to do that. :D

[jennylogan]

I know I am wired a little differently as I would assume most cd's are. If you don't have cd tendencies I doubt a guy would try on women's clothing unless it was Halloween or a costume party. I've been at parties where guys were obviously in drag and none of them ever made it more than an hour or two en femme. Their cding was at most a one time thing and good for a laugh and nothing else. For me it was different from the very first time because not only did I enjoy it, I never wanted to seriously stop doing this.

[Sheila]

If we look at how many women now routinely crossdress in our society, why would we think men would act any differently if freed from the stigma?
WE DO NOT CROSSDRESS

edited to add .......... yes there are F2M CDR's but I am assuming you are referring in general to the number of females who routinely wear trousers for comfort and conveniance and not to hte F2M CDR .... if i am wrong in that assumption I apologise

we wear what we are comfortable in whether it be trousers, skirts or dresses and like I have said in previous post you all have the same option to do so ................. just choose the option to not, because of how you view societies views :straightface:


Even women would wear far more dresses and skirts if freed from the submissive stigma that the feminist movement imposed on women and the unreachable standards the fashion industry has created.[/COLOR]

u think ?:devil::devil::devil: AGAIN as stated above, we wear what we are comfortable in whether it be trousers, skirts or dresses

[ReineD]

Hi everyone. My observation is that the vast majority of the Girls on this site are genuinely kind, intelligent and very interesting people. My question is: "Would most non-dressing males enjoy this if they tried it or is it that our brians are wired a little differently?" (little high right now)

I do not think the non CDing male would enjoy participating in threads about makeup, clothes, or how it feels to be femme. Nor do I think he might suppress a desire to experiment with CDing. I do agree that TG's 'brains are wired differently', since TGs do identify with a gender or combination gender different from birth anatomy.

But this forum is so much more than a place to discuss being femme. It is a place, as you say, populated with kind, intelligent individuals who have genuine concern for helping others, no matter the issue. Much of the support here deals with emotional questions that frankly could be experienced outside of CDing: hurt feelings, fear, anger, self-doubt, marital difficulties.

Most of my relationships with the men in my life have been as friends, who have also been thoughtful, kind, compassionate, insightful. I do believe that the majority of the men I know would enjoy joining a community where they could share the human experience: give their opinions, advice, and seek support with the struggles we all face on a daily basis.

[Carly D.]

There is a certain amount of curiosity amongst just about every man I think.. I saw an entry here some time back that asked "how many men are cross dressers" and the answer, in my idea at any rate, would be about 8% of men cross dress. my feeling is that this number might be true but then you have to figure the number that cross dress every day as a "Sheila" is probably 8% while there are those who dress a bit less fem.. I think the number of men who have or would like to dress either partial or even just have an article of the woman clothing be tried would be closer to 50%.. and I'm not joking about that.. consider the fact that most men would poo poo the idea of ever even wearing something might in fact mean they either have tried it or have thought about it in their lifetimes..

[Nicki B]

My interpretation of the term "hard wired" as used in some of the postings on this and other threads is that it is a reference to gender dysphoria.

I understand 'hard-wired' as a term from the IT industry - meaning a system built in one specific way. That, when refering to people, implies to me you mean something genetically determined - i.e. due to one's nature, not nuture?

So often we say 'we were born this way'? :strugglin

[Veronica27]

There is a certain amount of curiosity amongst just about every man I think.. ..

There is an old saying that "curiosity killed the cat", but curiosity is what also accomplished a great deal over the years, including exploration and many inventions. The more intelligent an individual is, the greater his sense of curiosity will be as it reflects his desire to know and understand.

Curiosity is at the heart of my contention that not all crossdressing is the result of gender dysphoria, but can have much to do with personality and other factors. For transexuals, wearing the clothing of the opposite sex is not the primary motivation for their journey. They feel they are that opposite sex, and the clothing is simply a reflection of that reality. It is a valid question, which depends upon the exact definition you apply to the word, whether or not they are actually crossdressing. For myself and many others, the clothing is the primary motivation. I have no wish or desire to be female, but I do have a powerful desire as a man to experience some of the unique situations and sensations that society has reserved for its womenfolk. This is a part of the overall experience of life and it is unfair to restrict portions of that experience to one sex or the other. Making myself look and act as feminine as possible adds to the realism and totality of the experience and is very much like an art form.

As I stated previously, society has come a long way in accepting that people may be "hard wired" to be gay, transgendered, left-handed and so on, but still has a hard time accepting that a person might simply enjoy the experience of crossdressing for no reason other than the pleasure of the experience. Why do we continually have to justify the activity to ourselves and to others? Why do we seek explanations such as hormonal washes during gestation?


Well Veronica, if it is not hard wiring of some sort, I am surprised! I know very few men that suffer from depression, and lose family and friends because they can't give up Golf, or what ever other hobbies they may have.
Tina

I think that there are many instances of depression and loss of family and friends because of obsession with whatever interests or hobbies one might have. Examples of golf widows, couch potato sports junkies and numerous other compulsions are everywhere. The big difference between these and crossdressing, is that society has not attached the same degree of stigma to them as crossdressing, which does not lead to the same type of introspective questioning about cause and its resultant feelings of guilt and shame. But in many respects, these other activities can bring about far greater damage to a relationship or friendship.

Veronica

[Veronica27]

I understand 'hard-wired' as a term from the IT industry - meaning a system built in one specific way. That, when refering to people, implies to me you mean something genetically determined - i.e. due to one's nature, not nuture?

So often we say 'we were born this way'? :strugglin

Hi Nicki

I don't think we are that far apart in our interpretation of the expression "hard wired". A left handed person has a slightly different physical brain structure than a right handed person. It has nothing to do with his personality, except for any possible effect that being a "minority" might have had. The hormonal wash theories about gender dysphoria mean that such an individual has developed more of a female brain than a male brain because of prenatal gestation factors. This may be a genetic factor, but so are all of our personality and other physical characteristics. Those characteristics may be a part of our hard wiring, depending on how far you carry the definition, but what we do with them has elements of choice that are influenced by "nurture". I was "born this way", only in the sense that my intellect and personality have combined to create a curiosity about certain experiences.

Veronica

[Lisa Golightly]

No, most hotblooded, testosterone charged males would not like this... They don't like me either... Poo!

[June Campbell]

I think that non CD males treat their time in a dress as a time to be a caricature of a woman, as do some fetishist CDs. Our local football teams seem to want to dress up for their end of year reviews and they do not dress in a sympathetic manner. So would they enjoy the site or crossdressing, a resounding no in my opinion.

[Satrana]

Ahh, but see, here's my opinion: most women in jeans and pants aren't cross-dressing, because wearing jeans and pants became "the norm" a long time ago.


I know where you are coming from but I disagree. Just because it has become the norm and women put on pants without thinking does not mean it is not crossdressing. Everyone knows that pants are traditional male clothes and it still carries that symbolic statement. If you wanted to be taken seriously say in a business meeting you would choose to wear pants not a flowery dress. We are all aware of the symbolic nature of clothes whether it happens consciously or sub-consciously.

Even when the day arrives when men can freely wear skirts and heels without stigma, everyone will still recognize the traditional and symbolic nature of what that look conveys. It may no longer be called crossdressing but the subtext is clear.

And when considering this issue lets not just confine the analysis to pants and jeans. All examples of male clothing from shoes and boots, underwear, button down shirts, waistcoats, hats, jackets etc have all been copied over into womenswear. Pick up a fashion magazine and you will likely find an article advising you how much masculinity you should incorporate into your look for the forthcoming season.

Perhaps the best example I can offer to you is the business jacket with padded shoulders. Wide broad shoulders are a clear sign of male dominance and power. They are an exact equivalent to padded bras which seek to project feminine power. In this instance not only are the male clothes being borrowed by women but your body shape is modified to acquire male power.

I understand that women no longer consciously think about these matters but they do remain very much aware about choosing which clothes to be worn to convey the correct message with regards to the balance between masculinity and femininity.

By choosing not to wear traditional feminine clothing you are automatically altering your gender presentation and people will react to you accordingly. Women are aware of the subtext and so are in fact crossdressing by default without realizing it.
If you want you can call this by another name such as "gender clothing awareness" but it amounts to the same thing as crossdressing.

[Sarasometimes]

I agree with Karren. If they could drop thier guard enough to really give it a try they may gain something from it. Maybe all it would be would be insight and an appreciation of some of the things women do. When I was trying on wedding gowns, the SA mentioned how I now know the effort involved in just shopping for a gown. All the underpinnings, layers and weight of the gowns. (BLISS!)
Most couldn't get to that point because of thier fear of what doing this once could mean. Look at all the guys who get dragged to the mall (If they were really wearing the pants they would be home watching football) by thier SO and stand just outside the women's sections in the store out of fear that a bra or dress may jump off the rack and onto them.
Avril, I don't agree with your comment If they are male they are not CDr. We here are mostly male and mostly CD!?!??

[joann426]

ill go along with niki

[Sheila]

By choosing not to wear traditional feminine clothing you are automatically altering your gender presentation and people will react to you accordingly. Women are aware of the subtext and so are in fact crossdressing by default without realizing it.
If you want you can call this by another name such as "gender clothing awareness" but it amounts to the same thing as crossdressing.

????? BULL POO

Okay so if u get to call me a crossdresser I reserve the right to call you a man in a dress/skirt whatever

[Miss Tessa]

Straight guys who are not transgendered at all do not act like the people on these forums.

Straight non transgendered men are insensetive, non-feeling, and even cruel and competetive by nature.

So they would not act like we do.

But they love it when a passable transsexual or crossdresser who is passable acts like a GG woman.

[Sam44]

Straight guys who are not transgendered at all do not act like the people on these forums.

Straight non transgendered men are insensetive, non-feeling, and even cruel and competetive by nature.

So they would not act like we do.

But they love it when a passable transsexual or crossdresser who is passable acts like a GG woman.

Perhaps I'm misreading your post, if so I apologize in advance.

I'm sorry your view of men has been that warped (by what I assume are bad experiences in your past.) But I have to take exception to this. Tho I'm the only crossdresser in my family, none of the men in my family are non-feeling, cruel or as insensitive or competitive as I infer from the quoted text. In fact I don't associate with such people (of either sex) but I sure know where to find them :)

I think that few people who aren't either crossdressers or associated with crossdressers would be interested in this sight at all. There are surely some stalkers here and some voyeurs, etc. but most people I know (of either sex) would either be amused or outright put off reading the posts here. BTW this is also true of some other enthusiast or "hobbyist" sites I frequent (think audio or cars or skiing): outsiders are often outright disgusted with the perceived excesses they see at such sites.

[Nicki B]

I know where you are coming from but I disagree. Just because it has become the norm and women put on pants without thinking does not mean it is not crossdressing. Everyone knows that pants are traditional male clothes and it still carries that symbolic statement. If you wanted to be taken seriously say in a business meeting you would choose to wear pants not a flowery dress. We are all aware of the symbolic nature of clothes whether it happens consciously or sub-consciously.

Even when the day arrives when men can freely wear skirts and heels without stigma, everyone will still recognize the traditional and symbolic nature of what that look conveys. It may no longer be called crossdressing but the subtext is clear.

But women wearing pants and jeans aren't trying to be men - the clothes are often designed to make sure it's obvious they're not men.. They're trying to be comfortable and practical.

Men can and do wear skirts (never seen a scotsman, or a greek, in a kilt?), glam rockers in the 70s wore outrageous heels and long hair, but made very sure their masculinity showed, as well.

You are right, clothes are used by humans to send strong signals. And when we wear a flowery dress, surely we're trying to send a signal - because the 'it's more comfortable' mantra isn't always physically true?

[Satrana]

Straight non transgendered men are insensetive, non-feeling, and even cruel and competetive by nature.



That is a very sexist attitude and I am sure everyone here knows plenty of men who display none of the above traits. And if for the sake of argument it were true, how do you know this is by nature? These behaviors you list are promoted by society as a macho tough guy image. Maybe men just learn to act this way. Maybe all men are born as sensitive, sympathetic, loving human beings and get shoe-horned into believing the macho role model is one of several acceptable ways to behave.

[Satrana]

But women wearing pants and jeans aren't trying to be men - the clothes are often designed to make sure it's obvious they're not men.. They're trying to be comfortable and practical.

And when I wear a skirt I am not trying to be a woman, I am just wearing what I feel comfortable in. I am still clearly a man. So how do you differentiate what I do from what women do? If I am a CD then so are women, if women are not crossdressing then neither am I.

Now there is a sub-category of CDs who try to emulate women. It is true that this particular behavior is not normally seen in women, but then I would argue that if men had grown up with the same freedom and choices that women presently have then the idea to emulate a woman would never enter the minds of the majority of men who are now labeled crossdressers.

[Nicki B]

And when I wear a skirt I am not trying to be a woman, I am just wearing what I feel comfortable in. I am still clearly a man.

So... Why don't you just wear a kilt? Do you just wear a skirt, with male underwear? What is it about a skirt that makes you feel comfortable? :confused:


People have also posted before how they are only escaping to a fantasy - but they never explain why they particularly choose to become women in their fantasy, instead of engine drivers, or 19th Century soldiers, or cowboys...


Perhaps they'd explain the underlying reasons - and why that couldn't be thought of as a mild dysphoria?

[Annie D]

I don't think most males would mind dressing up as long as they thought it was as a prank. If you asked a male to put on a dress, some lipstick, some heels and a wig, they would not be that uncomfortable because they would make sure that they made a joke of the situation. If you asked a male to shave his legs, put on some pantyhose and matching undergarment, put on the same dress, add make up to the lipstick, put on appropriate jewelry and carefully fix the hair on the wig, then I think you'd hear, "what do you think I am, a ---------!"

[VeronicaMoonlit]

instead of engine drivers, or 19th Century soldiers, or cowboys...

or professional Cardinal Richelieu impersonators.



If I were not before the bar
Something else I'd like to be
If I were not a barr-is-ter
An engine driver me!
With a chuffchuffchuff etc.




Perhaps they'd explain the underlying reasons - and why that couldn't be thought of as a mild dysphoria?

Twould be interesting to hear.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.
You are too clever for us naughty people.

[mykhelee]

A view from the front lines...I feel that on a lark, as long as they don't look too real, many men could handle dressing for Halloween or some such. This would be no shaving, no fake nails etc. Most of the bi and/or gay men I know have a hard enough time accepting that I dress, let alone asking them to. The gays are too wired into the whole manly man compensation angle and the bi's feel it is a gay thing. It is ok to enjoy what they like, but "this" is too wierd for them. Que-sera-sera

[Pamela Julie]

I think a few non cd's, if coerced into trying it, would like it. I feel most would not, and a very few repulsed by it.

Pamela:)

[Kelsy]

So... Why don't you just wear a kilt? Do you just wear a skirt, with male underwear? What is it about a skirt that makes you feel comfortable? :confused:


People have also posted before how they are only escaping to a fantasy - but they never explain why they particularly choose to become women in their fantasy, instead of engine drivers, or 19th Century soldiers, or cowboys...


Perhaps they'd explain the underlying reasons - and why that couldn't be thought of as a mild dysphoria?


Nicki,

I have to agree with you. Some comfortable clothing arguments amount to little more than denial, as if you cannot find colorful comfortable men's clothing? Me well it has less to do with the clothes and more about my state of mind

Kelsy

[Nicki B]

I wasn't trying to accuse anyone of denial - just expressing my confusion and asking if anyone could explain? :strugglin

[Satrana]

So... Why don't you just wear a kilt? Do you just wear a skirt, with male underwear? What is it about a skirt that makes you feel comfortable? :confused: Precisely! You question why I cannot find a masculine equivalent to feel comfortable in yet accept this argument for women. It is all down to individual expression. I feel comfortable in a skirt because I like skirts because I feel they reflect how I want to project myself.

Exactly the same argument goes for women. Women can find comfortable and practical clothes from traditional feminine wear. They need never wear anything masculine to achieve this but they do because they want to.

The "comfortable/practical" answer is a simplistic and spurious statement because if there was any truth in it then the trillion dollar fashion industry would not exist. I could show you a hundred comfortable/practical clothes and you might turn every one of them down because you did not like them.

The clothes we choose to wear are ALWAYS a statement of self expression. Virtually all clothes you can buy today, whether masculine or feminine, are automatically comfortable and practical. This is pretty much a given so therefore does not illuminate why clothes are chosen. You may as well state that clothes are purchased because they cover you up and keep you warm.

So the real question is why does that particular item of clothing appeals over another item. Apart from obvious criteria like color, material, shape, fashion trends etc is the gender component. This is unavoidable because clothes are still associated with traditional male and female roles. When you see labels for men and women they are shown wearing traditional attire. This meaning is immediately identifiable and understood by everyone. It will only disappear when both genders are free to wear all types of clothes.

[Nicki B]

Precisely! You question why I cannot find a masculine equivalent to feel comfortable in yet accept this argument for women. It is all down to individual expression. I feel comfortable in a skirt because I like skirts because I feel they reflect how I want to project myself.

But isn't a skirt (as opposed to a kilt) specifically projecting a female image? :confused:


Exactly the same argument goes for women. Women can find comfortable and practical clothes from traditional feminine wear. They need never wear anything masculine to achieve this but they do because they want to.

Here, I disagree strongly with you, if you are classing trousers as 'male' attire? Wearing a skirt can make one feel vulnerable? Ask the GGs here..

[Satrana]

But isn't a skirt (as opposed to a kilt) specifically projecting a female image? :confused:
No a female image can only be achieved by emulation. A skirt carries a feminine subtext but if it is worn by someone who is obviously male then it does not produce a female image.

Men who wear skirts do not look any more like women than women look like men just by wearing pants. So I go back to my original point either we (CDs and GGs) are all crossdressers or neither of us are.


Here, I disagree strongly with you, if you are classing trousers as 'male' attire? Wearing a skirt can make one feel vulnerable? Ask the GGs here.. And? If some individuals feel that way then that that is their issue. And if a CD feels this way then maybe they should also give up wearing skirts and dresses. If you are suggesting the trend amongst Western women to no longer wear skirts is because they all feel vulnerable then I do not buy that for a moment. There may be certain circumstances when wearing pants would be more advisable but usually no threats exist during a typical day to warrant such feelings.

There is nothing vulnerable in the skirt itself, if a woman feels
vulnerable it is because she is a woman and feels threatened because of her gender. Men who attack women do so irregardless of what they are wearing.

At the end of the day this is still irrelevant. There are many reasons to crossdress. If a woman wears masculine clothes because she feels vulnerable wearing feminine ones she is still crossdressing as she is still responding and using the gender subtext of the clothes for her own advantage.

Crossdressing is still crossdressing irregardless of the individual's motives for doing so.

[Nicki B]

If you are suggesting the trend amongst Western women to no longer wear skirts is because they all feel vulnerable then I do not buy that for a moment. There may be certain circumstances when wearing pants would be more advisable but usually no threats exist during a typical day to warrant such feelings.

Feelings aren't, by definition, logical - but why don't you ask some of them?

And the 'threat' is certainly not just of being attacked by a man.. You can simply dislike the shape of your legs, going up stairs, bending over, wind and rain, just to name a few. :idontknow: