Living in a very historical place

[azure]

It struck me, the question of how individuals a hundred years ago coped with and experienced being what we now call cd, tv and tg. How did it affect them?. Was there the known population of individuals there is now? We know that those who were deemed as having a mental health issue were treated in a barbaric way. It somthing I found interesting to think about, any ideas, also maybe its more of a way in which to understand it. There has always been gender, and always been sexual practice, though qualitativley these may have been perceived in a different way, and had attributions and rules governing them, any ideas? I know this is a bit dry, and feel free to move it, if its not appropriate,ta!

[Kimberly]

A programme I saw that examined transgenderism, (by the turner winning prize tranvestite, whose name escapes me,) looked into the roots of crossdressing, and found this...

(Let's hope my memory serves me well.)

It all began during the victorian period, in which dresses for women became specifically feminine, (so 'Little Britain' got something right.) So Victorian Britain began the trend of men dressing in female attire - especially corsets and the long formal dresses that mark the period well in modern eyes.

There was also some photography apparent of this early crossdressing... much like the stuff on this thread, though you have to think about how much trouble people had to go through to get photographed then.

Unfortunatly, I don't know anything about how they were treated etc.

A random fact I do know about 19th Century Britain, is that, right up to 1900, boys of age 0-2 were dressed in dresses rather than male attire. When they grew to about 3 or 4 they would then be put in shorts etc.

Wouldn't it have been nice for this to happen.... :Pray:

[Teddie]

A random fact I do know about 19th Century Britain, is that, right up to 1900, boys of age 0-2 were dressed in dresses rather than male attire. When they grew to about 3 or 4 they would then be put in shorts etc.

I have a picture of my dad, who at that time was still living in England, dressed in a dress, and I think he was about 4. And, this would have been around 1910 or 1911.

[Strike]

Not forgeting, in ancient times the most famous crossdresser was Alexander The Great, who used to occasionly go to dinners dressed in his wifes attire.

Also I think there was a member of the Yussapov family that crossdressed as well.

[Mia001]

Hi,

I saw the same programme as Kimberley. It was pretty good. Sorry to say I don't remember any more about it except it was on Channel 4. They may have some more info on their website www.channel4.com but it was a while ago.

Good luck,

Mark.

[Cissy Suzie]

A programme I saw that examined transgenderism, (by the turner winning prize tranvestite, whose name escapes me,) looked into the roots of crossdressing, and found this...

(Let's hope my memory serves me well.)

It all began during the victorian period


Actually crossdressing is much, much older ... I did a little websearch and found this to be interesting.

http://www.mindcaviar.com/sacred/sacred9.html

Somewhere in my history books I have an account of a Roman emperor,
Elagabalus who was a crossdresser who as I remember, even married a slave with (ahem) enormous attributes! :eek:

I think he was Syrian and I do remember accounts of his worship of something called the Ben Ben stone, I believe a phallic symbol. I remember reading about him walking into Rome backwards worshipping the stone on his way to his coronation.

Religion, seems to have been very tied up with transgenderism, including crossdressing, and even ritual castration, an ancient form of transgender sugery?

But there is more ...

Tacitus mentions in the Annuls of Imperial Rome an account of Nero scandalizing proper society by appearing at a dinner party dressed as a bride, even having sex with a man in full site of the guests.

There are instances in many historical cultures of crossdressing.

I assume crossdressing even goes back as far as cavemen seeing whatever garment that covered the vagina, the gateway we all take into the world as very significant, even magical. Some of them, like a lot of us, would have begged, borrowed, or stole those garments to wear themselves.

I imagine we have literally millions of sisters who have gone before us.

Hee hee let's not forget J. Edgar Hoover! Hmm on second thought I think I prefer to forget him! :cool:

[Kimberly]

Hee hee let's not forget J. Edgar Hoover! Hmm on second thought I think I prefer to forget him! :cool:
I didn't know he was a CD. nice one! ... or not.

A very recent program, (also on channel 4 UK), showed how Eastern cultures were much much more accepting of TGs than the western world, and it was only down to the western influence of the world that transgenderism has become a taboo and something that is said in a negative light, rather than a positive one.

[Strike]

From Wikipedia

Famous historical examples of cross-dressing people
Famous historical examples of cross-dressing people include:

The legend of Pope Joan alleges that she was a promiscuous female pope who dressed like a man and reigned from 855 to 858. Modern historians regard her as a mythical figure who originated from 13th century anti-papal satire.
Joan of Arc was a 15th century French military commander who led French armies against English forces occupying France during the latter part of the Hundred Years' War. She is a French national heroine and a Catholic saint, having been martyred by the English. After being captured by the English, she was burned at the stake upon being convicted by a pro-English religious court, with the act of dressing in male clothing being cited as one of the reasons for her execution. Eyewitness accounts quote her as testifying that she wore male clothing because it allowed the pants and tunic to be fastened together, thereby serving as a defense against rape. However, see the caveat about historical persons and testimonies above.
Anne Bonny and Mary Read were late 17th century pirates. Bonny in particular gained significant notoriety, but both were eventually captured. Unlike the rest of the male crew, Bonny and Read were not immediately executed because Read was pregnant and Bonny claimed to be pregnant as well.
Charles-Geneviève-Louis-Auguste-André-Timothée Éon de Beaumont (1728-1810), usually known as the Chevalier d'Eon, was a French diplomat and soldier who lived the first half of his life as a man and the second half as a woman. In 1771 he claimed that physically he was not a man, but a woman, having been brought up as a man only. From then on s/he lived as a woman. On her/his death it was discovered that her/his body was anatomically male.
George Sand is the pseudonym of Amandine-Aurore-Lucile Dupin, an early 19th century French novelist who preferred to wear men's clothing exclusively. In her autobiography, she explains in length the various aspects of how she experienced cross-dressing.
Dorothy Lawrence was an English war reporter who disguised herself as a man so she could become a soldier in World War I.
Rrose Sélavy was the feminine alter-ego of the late French artist, Marcel Duchamp, remains one of the most complex and pervasive pieces in the enigmatic puzzle of the artist's oeuvre. She first emerged in portraits made by the photographer Man Ray in New York in the early 1920s, when Duchamp and Man Ray were collaborating on a number of conceptual photographic works. Rrose Sélavy lived on as the person to whom Duchamp attributed specific works of art, Readymades, puns, and writings throughout his career. By creating for himself this female persona whose attributes are beauty and eroticism, he deliberately and characteristically complicated the understanding of his ideas and motives.
Billy Tipton was a notable jazz pianist and saxaphonist in the United States. He was born Dorothy Lucille Tipton in 1914. Tipton changed gender role and became a "male" musician during the Great Depression in order to be hired with a band. He was married five times to women, and adopted three boys. He led a full career as a musician and, in later life, as an entertainment agent. Other than his birth family, no one knew of his birth sex or cross-living until after his death in 1989.
Willmer "Little Ax" Broadnax was a lead singer in several important gospel quartets, most famously the Spirit of Memphis Quartet. When he died in 1994, it was discovered that he was female bodied.
Because female enlistment was barred, many women fought for both the Union and the Confederacy during the American Civil War while dressed as men.
[edit]
Cultural examples of cross-dressing
Cross-dressing is the subject of many works of literature and plays a significant role in popular culture. References to cross-dressing are frequently used for comic effect, though more serious uses are also common.

[edit]
Movies and TV
Many movies feature cross-dressing as a central plot element, including:

Priscilla, Queen of the Desert (1994)
Some Like It Hot (1959)
The Birdcage (1996)
Tootsie (1982)
Mrs. Doubtfire (1993)
To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar (1995)
All of the above films are comedies; many other films reference cross-dressing for comedic effect but do not feature it as a central plot element.

Films in which cross-dressing is referred to in a more serious context are relatively rare, though The Birdcage attempts to portray subculture that could be labeled as transgender in a positive, accepting light. The Crying Game, a 1968 novel by John Braine, was adapted into a drama film in 1992. The plot revolves around a transsexual woman, implicitly involving the issue of cross-dressing.

On television, some comedy sketch shows, such as Monty Python's Flying Circus, League of Gentlemen and Kids in the Hall routinely feature cross-dressing, with men dressing as women and speaking in falsetto. Cross-dressing is a common comic device used in sitcoms, such as Saved by the Bell's Zach and Screech, who occasionally dressed as a women either to disguise themselves or for comic effect. Agent Pleakley, a male alien character in the animated 2002 film Lilo & Stitch (and television series of the same name) dresses in female clothing because he misunderstands human gender roles. Incidentally, the character is voiced by Kevin McDonald, a Kids in the Hall veteran. The plot of the 1980-1982 television show Bosom Buddies, starring Tom Hanks, centered on cross-dressing. The 2004 reality television series He's a Lady involves male contestants competing with each other to act as effeminately as possible, including cross-dressing.

Bugs Bunny is prone to occasional cross-dressing, usually to confound a foe. His transformation is typically so effective and his idenity so altered that his adversaries, (especially one Elmer Fudd), who moments earlier had been trying to kill him, are smitten.

[azure]

that was/is facinating, thankyou!!!!youve really done some deep research into the subject! I was looking intothe genetic origins of our experience, in that we may percieve it as a genetically stable strategy. The point of which is that genes exist to perpetuate genes, and that a strategy of the genes is to weave a strategic behavouioural trait into the dymanics of gender. the prime aim being to ensure that the young genes are protected to grow, and multiply and produce more genes. So,if one of the parents should die or no longer be present to nuture the child, the care and parental role may be filled by a gay sibling who posses a behavioural makeup which is nurturing, and so provides an environment where the child will thrive. In the case of the tv/cd/tg spectrum, this could be percived as a genetically stable mutuation, where embodyiment of female behaviours and traits may be amplified to greater ensure support for the child(new genes), though I feel there are flaws in the theory, but I also feel that the answer is close to this. From a historical point of view, has the population of tv/tv/tg remaind the same or increased over time, and could this spectrum be a genetic strategy of adaption where we see males that change from male to female in the presence of certain conditions? yes I agree this is far fetched, but worth simlply addressing as one view, of a jigsaw. I ask the questions because I keep asking myself, why am I here, why do i experince this fixed and persistent knowledge that my body is accutley dissonant with my inner self, if this is a naturally occuring thing, that my brain has areas which are signifcantly different to a regular male, if there is a reason/strategy for it, then what is it, or is it an illness, or am I a mutation, or a mistake.

[Sharon]

I think that as long as men and women have populated this planet, there has been crossdressing and transgenderism. Who knows, maybe Adam himself liked to wear something more flamboyant than just a loincloth occasionally. :)
As a percentage to the population as a whole, I would assume that there has always been a comparable number of transgendered people in the world (usually estimated at between five and 8 percent for habitual crossdressers), it has just gotten a wee bit more acceptable and/or easier in the recent past.
In the days before the internet, one had to strike up the courage to purchase their clothing in stores, unless he was fortunate enough to have females in his household that he could either beg, borrow, or steal clothing from. Now, all you need is a credit card and mailing address.
We also have much more leisure time than our forebearers. It must have been difficult finding time to dress when you were hunting mastodon all day long. Not to mention the fact that the average household had many more people in them until just the past couple generations. Where do you get the privacy when you are sharing a bedroom with your six brothers and you have hours of chores to do every day?
Transgenderism, like homosexuality, was seen as a mental disorder until very recently, and not much research was even done on it until after WWII. It was such a stigma, that many people either repressed the urge or, literally, drove themselves insane worrying themselves sick about their urges.
We are fortunate to be living when we are, when we have such easy access to the clothing we desire and the time to wear them. I can't help but wonder though, whether dressing in public will be more socially acceptable in future generations. It won't do me any good, but I certainly hope so.

[Kimberly]

Films in which cross-dressing is referred to in a more serious context are relatively rare, though
Bad Education

GO AND SEE IT!

(Though the CDs in that are gay, and come from a catholic school... ah well!)