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Miss Tessa
11-16-2008, 11:29 AM
There's one thing I don't like about being a woman and I'm sure many girls hate the same thing.

I don't like the fierceness that alot of girls have toward eachother both GG's and in the trans community.

We all want to be pretty looking, but we feel like it's a competition. Some girls are fierce toward what another girl wears or how she acts.

And we have the feeling that we're not the prettiest girl and there are other girls who are prettier and that upsets us.

When I lived as a man I never felt that way. I didn't care which guy was more handsome than I was.

But after going the transition I feel common female jealous sometimes.
Even against my own friends. It's a normal thing for women and girls but annoying

Holly
11-16-2008, 11:34 AM
So your view if being a girl is trying to out do all the other girls? I'm getting out the popcorn.

docrobbysherry
11-16-2008, 11:37 AM
I guess I make a crappy female! My competition is always with myself.:Angry3:

I always want ALL girls to look as pretty as possible! GGs AND TS/TG/CDs!

The more ladies for me to admire, appreciate, and fantasize about, the better!:D

nicole123
11-16-2008, 11:39 AM
For me living in a mans world I always had an opposite perception. I always felt like among men there was an underlying aggressive need to prove who was more dominant,
And would look at women and wish I could join in the closeness and uninhibited friendship they seem to share

Miss Tessa
11-16-2008, 12:00 PM
Yes but I'm not talking about males all wanting to be the Alpha male.

you're kinda on target, but that's the male version.

The girl version is how girls can be so catty and fierce to one another.

Angie G
11-16-2008, 12:17 PM
Not for me I can't compete with a lot of the girls here and that doesn't bother me I only go out on Halloween and can'y really pass then. I'm just happy being me.:hugs:
Angie

DemonicDaughter
11-16-2008, 01:13 PM
You know what really bothers me? Stereotyping.

But I digress...

Anyhow, I believe that the majority of women aren't "catty" over looks. I believe that they might feel insecure when seeing an attractive woman, but I don't think they instantly berate her in a conversation for it.

I think what some people perceive as women being "catty' (and could you use a more stereotypical word that just perpetuates these concepts?), is actually just a matter of personal insecurity. A lot of PEOPLE (not just male or female), instinctively feel defensive when their personal boundaries are tested. In other words, meeting someone who feels there is some sort of competition for looks is going to spur another to do the same. That's life.

You don't like it? Then try not promoting it further.

Chloe84
11-16-2008, 01:24 PM
I dont think Miss Tessa was Stereotyping all women and all CD/TS/TV's out there when she said "a lot", I think more so she was stating it as an observation, as well as perhaps a factor of her own life(that part im not sure of.
I know as a male, and as a CD, all i want is to look my best, I know that there are a lot more women and TS/TV/CD's out there that are so so much prettier than my self. Do i feel Catty about it, most times no, but if someone says something about my looks, i will say something about their looks back to them, either be it a compliment or a Dig. I think it is in all of us to act this way.

and as being a male for the Majority of my life(ok all of it so far) I have noticed that women can be extreamly fierce to each other , nit picking, and making snide remarks when they have a chance. I suppose its the same way that men will try and out do the other men to be the Alpha Male, women want to be the one and only important female.

OK, this was my 2cents and in no way true facts, so please don't attack me for having an opinion.

avril findlay
11-16-2008, 01:41 PM
I don't see myself in any sort of competition with other girls as to "Who's the prettiest?". That's just as much nonsense in our world as it is in the "normal" world.
And I do NOT like the way heels start to hurt your feet after a couple of hours!

Miss Tessa
11-16-2008, 02:12 PM
Demonic Daughter, that the point I was trying to make.


Us women both T and G have insecurities about our looks and we sometimes feel threatened by prettier girls or equally pretty girls that are even our own friends being with us when we're out.

Myself and most women would never cut somebody down verbally about their looks or fashion, that is horribly rude and insensetive. I don't think I even know anybody that is that much of a female dogg.

I have noticed my observations occurring ESPECIALLY in the YOUNG TG community.

The older ladies are more like old fashioned, seasoned women who are less insecure and were raized up in a time of being more polite.

But the young TG girls I know do things that I find downright FOOLISH.

For example, sometimes when I go out with my friends these girls compete who can get the most numbers programmed into their cell phones without even planning to call the person ever.They do it as a stupid juvenille competition with their girlfriends.
I do not do stuff like that. I have lots of reasons why I think that behavior is wrong.


As TG people, especially the TS's, we are often angry that men think we are more sexually available because of all the ******* porn and the stereotype that we're all prostitutes.

I find alot of young TG girls perpetuate that stereotype by flaunting themselves at men even when they really are not interested in "getting" with the man.
All they want is somebody to stroke their ego, and yes I am guilty of doing that behavior, I admit it.

Those are just observations. Don't attack me for them because they are true in the sector of the mostly young T community I deal with in large Florida metropolitan areas.

DemonicDaughter
11-16-2008, 02:24 PM
I dont think Miss Tessa was Stereotyping all women and all CD/TS/TV's out there when she said "a lot", I think more so she was stating it as an observation, as well as perhaps a factor of her own life(that part im not sure of.
I know as a male, and as a CD, all i want is to look my best, I know that there are a lot more women and TS/TV/CD's out there that are so so much prettier than my self. Do i feel Catty about it, most times no, but if someone says something about my looks, i will say something about their looks back to them, either be it a compliment or a Dig. I think it is in all of us to act this way.

and as being a male for the Majority of my life(ok all of it so far) I have noticed that women can be extreamly fierce to each other , nit picking, and making snide remarks when they have a chance. I suppose its the same way that men will try and out do the other men to be the Alpha Male, women want to be the one and only important female.

OK, this was my 2cents and in no way true facts, so please don't attack me for having an opinion.

I believe saying, "It's a normal thing for women and girls but annoying" is stereotyping.

But perhaps I should re-phrase...

Making statements that perpetuate an already observed stereotype does not help eliminate the problem, it only promotes it.

I personally do not experience dislike or envy when looking at a more attractive person. I tend to believe we all have our hardships and would never assume someone has anything easier in life than I do. So they are better looking. They might also be suicide because life is just that depressing. So being envious is a useless emotion.

But when a common stereotypical phrase is used, such as women being catty over other women's appearances, it feeds the already social divide people create between the genders. It feeds the ignorance and misunderstandings that keep "men are from mars and women are from venus" a constant social concept.

In order to have ts/tg/cd to be acceptable, the lines of "us versus them" need to be less pronounced.

Making things "girl's version" or "male's version" isn't helping. Its dividing the lines and trying to put things in more boxes. This perpetuates stereotyping and social non-acceptance.


Demonic Daughter, that the point I was trying to make.


Us women both T and G have insecurities about our looks and we sometimes feel threatened by prettier girls or equally pretty girls that are even our own friends being with us when we're out.

Myself and most women would never cut somebody down verbally about their looks or fashion, that is horribly rude and insensetive. I don't think I even know anybody that is that much of a female dogg.

I have noticed my observations occurring ESPECIALLY in the YOUNG TG community.

The older ladies are more like old fashioned, seasoned women who are less insecure and were raized up in a time of being more polite.

But the young TG girls I know do things that I find downright FOOLISH.

For example, sometimes when I go out with my friends these girls compete who can get the most numbers programmed into their cell phones without even planning to call the person ever.They do it as a stupid juvenille competition with their girlfriends.
I do not do stuff like that. I have lots of reasons why I think that behavior is wrong.


As TG people, especially the TS's, we are often angry that men think we are more sexually available because of all the ******* porn and the stereotype that we're all prostitutes.

I find alot of young TG girls perpetuate that stereotype by flaunting themselves at men even when they really are not interested in "getting" with the man.
All they want is somebody to stroke their ego, and yes I am guilty of doing that behavior, I admit it.

Those are just observations. Don't attack me for them because they are true in the sector of the mostly young T community I deal with in large Florida metropolitan areas.

We both were responding at the same time, lol!

So I'll edit my post to answer yours. My post wasn't a personal attack, or an attack at all. My concerns regarding this community is often that because of things like stereotyping, ignorance and misunderstandings that it will continue to struggle greatly for social acceptance.

What you observe in the TG community locally, may not be true for another given GG social group. Why? Because GGs that aren't tg/ts/cd or don't have someone they are close to that is, have no idea what it is like, what you go through nor how you feel. The view points of those two separate groups cannot be lumped together.

Are younger people more competitive? Or is it just the newest generations that are more so? Is it more the ts/tg community that is? There are far more factors involved than saying its a "female problem". Its not. Its an individual problem and to be accepted as the same social group (ts/tg and ggs), again, those lines of continual social divide need to end, in my opinion.

Karren H
11-16-2008, 02:27 PM
Well I'm not a girl so what's not to like? Actually I don't experience any of the bad things of being a woman... child birth... monthly moodiness.... having to dress up every day for work vs when I want to.... glass ceilings..... Low pay..... Crossdressing has all the advantages and none of the disadvantages, imho!!!

SabrinaDubh
11-16-2008, 02:31 PM
I wonder how much of Miss Tessas experiences are due to the age and/or socio-economic status of the people she encounters.

Young girls do tend to exhibit the behavours described more than middle aged women.

Edit: Well said, DemonicDaughter.

MarcieM
11-16-2008, 02:48 PM
I don't like the fierceness that alot of girls have toward eachother both GG's and in the trans community.

you're taking this too seriously. lighten up.
maybe the whole goth attitude/frame of mind isn't working for you anymore.

Beth-Lock
11-16-2008, 02:49 PM
I think what we are criticizing here is shallowness. That is why people need a spiritual side, to give a perspective beyond conventional, very worldly roles.

Valeria
11-16-2008, 02:57 PM
What you observe in the TG community locally, may not be true for another given GG social group. Why? Because GGs that aren't tg/ts/cd or don't have someone they are close to that is, have no idea what it is like, what you go through nor how you feel. The view points of those two separate groups cannot be lumped together.
Please keep in mind that Tessa speaks for herself, and perhaps some young TG women she has known in her regional socioeconomic group.

She does NOT speak for all trans females (not even all young ones), nor does she accurately describe the majority of TS women, in my experience. I know lots of feminist trans females who'd be appalled at some of the things she's said in various threads. Accepting that her worldview holds true for most TS women is just as much perpetuating (or in this case, creating) a negative stereotype as anything Tessa has said.


Its an individual problem and to be accepted as the same social group (ts/tg and ggs), again, those lines of continual social divide need to end, in my opinion.
These lines are non-existent, IMO. But then, that trans females and cis females are the same social group is already taken for granted in much of my social environment.

I don't even know why this thread is in the crossdressing section. It seems to be about female-identified people (both cis and trans) who live as woman, and not particularly about crossdressers.

Miss Tessa
11-16-2008, 03:02 PM
Goth attitude????? I was just about to post this post right here telling Demonic Daughter about her having a goth attitude about this.


Goth people are notorious for complaining about "stereotyping"


And I don't really dress goth anymore. Alot of the middle aged CD's on this board dabble more into corsets, fancy dark sexy dresses, and bondage gear than I do nowdays.
I haven't listened to any music like Bauhaus or Siouxsie and The Banshees in years.

Don't STEREOTYPE ME and tell me I have something I quit in early adulthood.


And yes, it is exactly due to the socio-economic status of the TG ppl I know.

I admit I hang with a whole lot of escorts and straight up street walking TS's who are young. I also hang with alot of TG ppl into Underground music or Drag.

Some of you are attacking me with certain words while confirming my exact points I was trying to make with the same words you are using to make it look like I was saying something else.

Do you get it? The points I was making is what almost all of you are saying.......I just had my own way of wording it that made sense to me....

We're all on the same page here, except some people are trying to make it seem like I mean something else.

serinalynn
11-16-2008, 03:02 PM
The girl version is how girls can be so catty and fierce to one another.

My wife has told me and other women I know have stated that women are always in competition with each other. How your dressed, how much money you(or your spouse) make, and how you live. You as a woman are always in competition.

Tracii G
11-16-2008, 03:07 PM
Miss Tessa you may be growing out if that group of people.
Thats just a part of maturing which is what it sounds like to me that you are feeling.Thats a good thing too.
From the age 10 -16 I was in a pretty nasty gang and they were my "family" so to speak.I came to the realization I was maturing and they were doing all they knew how to do degrade others, fight and cause trouble ie steal,vandalize etc.
I felt it was time to move on and do something with my life. I joined the Army and found something with some structure and it put me on the right track.
I hope you find whats right for you. You seem very intelligent AND have street smarts both good qualities IMO.

Miss Tessa
11-16-2008, 03:09 PM
Also, how the heck do we make observations without discussing gender differences, such as the males wanting to be alpha males and women wanting to feel attractive?

As a world population of people, human beings have not evolved to a state of telepathic consciousness or have internet-like technology beamed to everybodies heads to make eachother know exactly what we mean without placing labels and terminology on things?

That whole nihilistic "goth" attitude doesn't go far with me Demonic Daughter, I figured that out years ago.

And personally I quoted that and labeled it "goth" purposely. I'm being satyrical because the other person said it and it's a label and it's also a label of something I don't associate with or want to be labeled as. I have no idea where they even got that from about me?

I'm making light of that because that bugs me that someone would say such a thing about me that I was thinking about somebody else in the first place. And something I am not into.

DemonicDaughter
11-16-2008, 04:26 PM
you're taking this too seriously. lighten up.
maybe the whole goth attitude/frame of mind isn't working for you anymore.

Please note, not all goths are depressed, competitive or "fierce". Goth ranges just as much as any social group.


Please keep in mind that Tessa speaks for herself, and perhaps some young TG women she has known in her regional socioeconomic group.

She does NOT speak for all trans females (not even all young ones), nor does she accurately describe the majority of TS women, in my experience. I know lots of feminist trans females who'd be appalled at some of the things she's said in various threads. Accepting that her worldview holds true for most TS women is just as much perpetuating (or in this case, creating) a negative stereotype as anything Tessa has said.

I don't presume anyone speaks for the majority. Its the reason I stress in my own posts the words "I believe" and such. I've been in the tg community since my teens and know that there are endless amounts of personal views and personalities. I happen to truly care a great deal about how this community is view because I love quite a few people in it. Its why I always seem to have posts trying desperately to abolish stereotypes and generalized statements.

I would love for all of you to be accepted as the individual you are. Albeit, the odds of that happening aren't in my favor, but a person can dream... :daydreaming:


These lines are non-existent, IMO. But then, that trans females and cis females are the same social group is already taken for granted in much of my social environment.

I don't even know why this thread is in the crossdressing section. It seems to be about female-identified people (both cis and trans) who live as woman, and not particularly about crossdressers.

I was referring more to male versus female attribute lines. It seems some people that want to present as females often specifically pick what is considered a "typical female trait" to over-emphasize their femininity. It in turn separates even further the lines between fighting for rights as women and arguing a stereotype often enforced by males. I feel its counterproductive.


Also, how the heck do we make observations without discussing gender differences, such as the males wanting to be alpha males and women wanting to feel attractive?

Because men desire to feel attractive as well. And woman can want to be the alpha female. Most "gender differences" aren't actual personality traits that belong to one specific gender or the other, they are social stereotypes. Its like saying all Irish are alcoholics, all Hispanic people steal cars or all black people are on welfare. We know these aren't true statements. We know that they are over-exaggerated statements that are easily dismissed when looking at particular economic, geographic, etc factors of any one group of people.


That whole nihilistic "goth" attitude doesn't go far with me Demonic Daughter, I figured that out years ago.

And personally I quoted that and labeled it "goth" purposely. I'm being satyrical because the other person said it and it's a label and it's also a label of something I don't associate with or want to be labeled as. I have no idea where they even got that from about me?

But yet you make that same assumption with me. That I identify with "that whole nihilistic goth attitude". I find it rather odd that you just did what you complained someone did to you. My attire has no bearing on my personal views of society. Just as you wish to be accepted as how you identify and not by a social label, you should practice what you preach.

Though I'd happily admit, I'd gladly accept the label "goth" if its primary social view point was to blur the gender lines and allow people to accept each other on a more individual basis than lumped into groups, slapped with erroneous labels all so someone can feel they fit in or out of that group.

Its human to want to feel attractive. Not just female, not just male. Human.

Joy Carter
11-16-2008, 04:41 PM
Look at female K9's. Most of the time, you can't have two in the same house. Once they get into a confrontation, they are likely to fight again. Males always seam to reconcile.

Bev06 GG
11-16-2008, 04:58 PM
There's one thing I don't like about being a woman and I'm sure many girls hate the same thing.

I don't like the fierceness that alot of girls have toward eachother both GG's and in the trans community.

We all want to be pretty looking, but we feel like it's a competition. Some girls are fierce toward what another girl wears or how she acts.

And we have the feeling that we're not the prettiest girl and there are other girls who are prettier and that upsets us.

When I lived as a man I never felt that way. I didn't care which guy was more handsome than I was.

But after going the transition I feel common female jealous sometimes.
Even against my own friends. It's a normal thing for women and girls but annoying

LOl, Well I cannot comment on the male population but sometimes there can be a bit of competition between ladies. It does tend to emenate from insecurity but I think its a human condition which manifests itself in both sexes but perhaps in different ways. I have actually met some men on a professional basis who are every bit the hormonal bitch but I have to admit that is rare.
I like you have come to the conclusion that generally the older more mature TS's are more chilled out and happy with who they are, but then when you think about it, they have had more time to adapt to circumstances and they have a few life skills under their belt (both male and female) with which to deal with every day issues. They have probably had a life time of knocks and if it hasn't made them bitter it has turned them into well rounded individuals who know what it is like to suffer persecution and disappointment and would never dream of inflicting the same on another person. This is of course generalising because we are all individuals and I would hate to be accussed of stereotyping, but this has certainly been my experience.
Take care
Bev

Valeria
11-16-2008, 04:58 PM
I was referring more to male versus female attribute lines. It seems some people that want to present as females often specifically pick what is considered a "typical female trait" to over-emphasize their femininity. It in turn separates even further the lines between fighting for rights as women and arguing a stereotype often enforced by males. I feel its counterproductive.
Yes, that happens, like in this thread:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92513

Sigh. FWIW, not everyone thinks that way. There are plenty of TS women who'd reject that type of logic.

BTW, a saying that I like to quote from one of my psych classes is that reality is closer to men are from North Dakota, women are from South Dakota. There are a few subtle differences, but they are rarely all that important.

DemonicDaughter
11-16-2008, 06:54 PM
Yes, that happens, like in this thread:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92513

Sigh. FWIW, not everyone thinks that way. There are plenty of TS women who'd reject that type of logic.

BTW, a saying that I like to quote from one of my psych classes is that reality is closer to men are from North Dakota, women are from South Dakota. There are a few subtle differences, but they are rarely all that important.

I agree. Sometimes it seems that much of the supposed "male and female traits" are really nothing more than socially imposed roles, not actual genetic make up.

A perfect example is, its much more understandable that women are seen as emotional because hormonal spikes during a woman's cycle can cause her to be upset. It also works the same in men as their hormones can often cause anger. So those two generalizations are not that far off. But saying someone can't... oh, let's use mechanics... saying they can't understand mechanics "naturally" because of the body parts they were born with... well that's just silly. No body actually knows mechanics naturally. You are either interested in it and therefore seek out knowledge on it or you don't. You can have a natural talent for something but being such talents aren't based on gender... well its wrong to say that an interest in cars is a "male" trait. Or that cooking is more of a "female" trait.

So yeah... we aren't from different planets, just different social structures that emphasized specific characteristics associated with one gender or the other. Thus stereotyping still plays such a huge role in our current society that it makes it quite difficult for anyone that goes outside those social norms. :(

Debutante
11-16-2008, 07:11 PM
I think it's their animus -- the masculine side of them -- that gets in the way. A really feminine woman, to me, seems to be cooperative, compliant, generous, and loving... not competitive and nasty -- something men do often.
But... I'll run this past my wife... we talked about this before... she hates those things that GGs do too.

Christinedreamer
11-16-2008, 07:39 PM
I do not consider myself an "alpha male" even though others have told me that or similar. I am just me. When I am in drab and in my work environment I am confident because I have years of experience. I am good at what I do but I don't find myself shoving it in anyone elses face unless they start trying to play the one-upsmanship game. I am Bill and friends and coworkers just know that I am the guy who can make "it" happen, whatever "it" is at the time.

When I do get femmed, I feel less confident because the same attributes that serve me as guy mode seem to subvert the image I wish to create as a CD. I want to be less conspicuous as far as size, I want to feel more petite and as such, create the illusion of "being one of the girls". I do not feel anger or petty and self-serving jealousy towards other girls who appear more "natural" than myself.

I think it may be an overstatement to say all or most GGs or CDs harbor the feelings of mean-spirited jealousy or similar attitudes.

As was stated earlier,perhaps the socio- economic "geography" that we allow to surround us has a definite negative influence on our own outlook.

As the joke says. "It is hard to soar with eagles when you are surrounded by buzzards".

Terrihoney
11-16-2008, 08:00 PM
Ughh!,

To many big words. Both female and male compete to be on the the top of the pile. If the competiveness seems too severe, maybe it's the group you're hanging with.

Terri

battybattybats
11-16-2008, 10:29 PM
I have found sexist attitudes and aggresive cruel and unethical competition disstressingly common in young women. For several years all the ones I met had these issues thinking it ok to judge people by their hair colour, clothing and lifestyle, thinking it ok to deliberatly try and harm others emotions, holding clear double-standards and a host of other unethical things.

Thankfully i have since met a number of much more ethical women.

The problem is i believe in the culture of what is acceptible in large portions of mainstream womens culture.

I've observed many of the same problems or similar in mens culture.

Examples: Many women have said that getting pregnant by deception is acceptible.

And I just heard on a newsbreak a study has found 1 in 7 boys think its ok to force a girl to have sex with them if she'd flirted with them.

There are extreme problems in the culture of both Men and Women which it is to be expected will often be found in TG communities. We should all speak out against these whenever they are found.

Sure a lot of women have been upset when I have pointed out their sexism having assumed that being women they couldn't be. A lot of men get crestfallen when their macho sexist posturing gets my mockery instead of validation like most men reward them with in current mainstream male culture.

None of these traits are specifically male or female but there are problems in male and female culture. And as we all contribute to that culture so to are we all responisble for changing it.

Satrana
11-17-2008, 04:38 AM
Actually I don't experience any of the bad things of being a woman... child birth... monthly moodiness.... having to dress up every day for work vs when I want to.... glass ceilings..... Low pay.....
There you go stereotyping women again:devil:

With regards to women being "catty" all the women I have dates and have gotten to know well on a deep, entrusted level (which OK is not that many but..) have all been catty towards other women. So from my own personal experience this observation is 100% accurate. But of course I know there are women who are not like this.

The problem with generalizations are there are those which are reasonable accurate and there are those which are just stupid and divisive. The problem is nobody can agree which is which.

If anyone can attack a generalization because it is a generalization......well there is no point discussing any form of human behavior since for sure one can always find exceptions to the rule. I don't have a problem with using generalizations so long as I feel they are reasonably accurate and are being used not as an insult but as a means to explain or explore human behavior.

Nicole Erin
11-17-2008, 05:30 AM
There's one thing I don't like about being a woman and I'm sure many girls hate the same thing.

I don't like the fierceness that alot of girls have toward eachother both GG's and in the trans community.

We all want to be pretty looking, but we feel like it's a competition. Some girls are fierce toward what another girl wears or how she acts.

And we have the feeling that we're not the prettiest girl and there are other girls who are prettier and that upsets us.

It's a normal thing for women and girls but annoying

OH gyod yes!
Women want to be the prettiest just as some men want to be the "alpha male" Of course my fat ass is no one's competition but yes I feel jealous of other CD's, trust me.

See Tessa, you actually are quite pretty, and you are competition for a lot of girls. So yeah you are going to give and get jealousy. Take someone like me who just is not that hot, and while I am sometimes jealous, I figure "ehh what the hell, this is me, people take it or leave it..."

It is funny to see women complain about some media figure. You hear the woman say "Oh gyod her nose is crooked and her clothes are bad and she slept with... trying to point out ALL the things wrong and let's face it, it is just jealousy... :heehee: My big sister is a really pretty woman but she HATES Jenny McCarthy. My wife hates J-Lo.

Plain jealousy.
But it's all good, people want to be the best and hey jealousy can make a motivated person strive a liottle harder to improve themselves.

Erin

Miss Tessa
11-17-2008, 08:11 AM
Demonic Daughter, I do agree about socially imposed expectations that the male and female roles are pressured to follow.

I was watching television and a commercial about Vitamins for teenagers came on. The commercial said something like "Boys are from Mars and girls are from Venus.So does a teenager girl need the same vitamin as a teenage boy? No.
Now theres a vitamin for his strong muscle developement and one for her healthy skin......"


Advertising like at the top of my list for things that really bother and anoy me.


And when ppl hear things like that all their lives they get socially impressions on what a "man" or "woman" or "boy" or "girl" is or should be.

We really are not much different. The only things that seem like huge differences are the way we act due to being socialized male or female.

DemonicDaughter
11-17-2008, 09:17 AM
Demonic Daughter, I do agree about socially imposed expectations that the male and female roles are pressured to follow.

I was watching television and a commercial about Vitamins for teenagers came on. The commercial said something like "Boys are from Mars and girls are from Venus.So does a teenager girl need the same vitamin as a teenage boy? No.
Now theres a vitamin for his strong muscle developement and one for her healthy skin......"

Advertising like at the top of my list for things that really bother and anoy me.

And when ppl hear things like that all their lives they get socially impressions on what a "man" or "woman" or "boy" or "girl" is or should be.

We really are not much different. The only things that seem like huge differences are the way we act due to being socialized male or female.

Exactly. It isn't a matter or whether or not women are or aren't catty. Everybody is. Men included. So when its attributed to just one gender, its inaccurate.

As I said, personally, its a reaction I don't share but are there women that are? Of course. But there are just as many men that do the same thing.

I find it funny that one gender attributes specific "traits" to the opposite gender when in actuality, they do it just as often.

There are 72 basic personalities and neither of them are specifically attributed to male or female. Yes, feminine or masculine but not in conjunction with anatomy. Here's a really good article on some of the studies behind this. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2001_April/ai_79856434) This is why things said to be only a female issue is not only the kettle calling the pot black, but also dividing us socially from one another erroneously.

If we only base our theories on our immediate experiences (as so many have stated with regards to the women in their lives), my own idea of people in the TG community and men in general would be pretty brutal. If I based everything on what I only experienced, I'd say anything born male is a habitual liar, incapable of loyalty, doesn't have the capacity to see beyond their own domain and are all neanderthals just waiting to drag their knuckles to the next bar to beat their chest and justify their ego. BUT I don't feel that way. I'm well aware that women can do that as well even though I've hardly had personal experience with it.

In other words, its not a female thing. Its not a male thing. Its a human thing.

battybattybats
11-17-2008, 09:35 AM
In other words, its not a female thing. Its not a male thing. Its a human thing.

Absolutely!

Well said!

Raquel June
11-17-2008, 06:33 PM
I totally agree with Miss Tessa, and I'm seriously amazed at how many people apparently don't.

There's a huge difference between stereotyping and bigotry, and I think some of you are using the wrong word.

We all profile. We all analyze. Before someone opens their mouth, we have classified them based on their posture, apparent attitude, clothes, tattoos, piercings, and all kinds of non-verbal things. We have prepared ourself based on stereotypes. If someone is dressed like a nun I'm going to go ahead and assume she's a nun and be a little more polite. If a guy is dressed like a gang member I'm not going to be utterly shocked and indignant if he drops multiple F bombs on his cell phone on the way by. The guy who is dressed like a gang member knows these stereotypes and plays into them, and he has absolutely no reason to be offended when people hold the door for the nun but not him. If he wants to get mad at somebody, it should be at the other people who dress like he does who have had an impact so big that it is now common knowledge that people who dress like him are troublemakers who should be avoided.

This whole "acceptance" thing has gone way too far. Soon we'll see people saying that guys with shaved heads and swastika tattoos are being unfairly stereotyped. You shouldn't be tolerant just for the sake of being tolerant. That's just being a wimp. There's all kinds of anti-social behavior that people shouldn't tolerate.

Stereotypes are mostly based in fact. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. What most people call a stereotype is just using common sense. If you're hosting an event for middle-aged white guys, you'll be much more likely to hire a band that plays classic rock than a hip-hop artist. Those poor white guys have to live with listening to much more classic rock then they'd like to. It sucks. But it's no big deal.

Airport security now has to spend a lot of time harassing 90-year-old women because they're not allowed to do statistically accurate profiling. Since the invention of the airplane there has only ever been one female hijacker -- a 25-year-old Palestinian woman. Regardless, it is considered unfair to stereotype old women as people that don't hijack airplanes, so everybody needs to have their time wasted.

I'm a horrible person because I profile old ladies myself, and I refuse to get in line behind them at the grocery store. I feel terrible about that because obviously it's stereotyping to say old women like to take 10 minutes to write a check for $13.26 in groceries. I also profile men over 50 who wear hats and do everything in my power to avoid driving behind them.

Younger girls are often catty and back-stabbing. There are plenty well-adjusted (and often tomboy-ish) girls that this doesn't apply to. Younger guys are often competitive and do extremely stupid stuff just trying to outdo each other. There are plenty guys that this doesn't apply to.

Some of the biggest complaints about society's treatment of women are perpetuated almost exclusively by other women. I've been around a lot of women well into their 30s who say terrible things about other women who are out of earshot. Most men don't know or care if a woman is wearing Prada or DG or Wal-Mart. They don't care if her makeup is MAC or Sephora or Wet & Wild. And if you ask a 5'7" woman what her ideal weight is, a lot of times she'll say 115 when her husband would prefer 140. Women are often very competitive between themselves about these things.

Likewise, a girl doesn't generally care if a guy has 20" rims or if he beat Guitar Hero on Expert, but you can't deny that there are a lot of guys out there who are competitive about things like that.

People are naturally going to stereotype. Bigotry is what's bad. Bigotry is when you don't give someone a chance to prove a stereotype wrong.




I think what we are criticizing here is shallowness. That is why people need a spiritual side, to give a perspective beyond conventional, very worldly roles.

That's true. Guys are often overtly shallow. Shallow girls often tend towards affectation, then it's more hurtful when they reveal their true selves.




Look at female K9's. Most of the time, you can't have two in the same house. Once they get into a confrontation, they are likely to fight again. Males always seam to reconcile.

Ever notice how often women talk about people they don't like? I'm not saying all women are like that, but many women will express outright hatred for people, and that's something you almost never see with men.

Maybe it's just that men work their feelings out better through overt competition and aggression, whereas women just sort of let it build up.

I'm sure many of us have seen the situation at a party or somewhere when two guys get mad at each other. They might even end up going outside and beating the crap out of each other, but a lot of times they'll be acting like best friends five minutes later. Aggressive guys gain a lot of respect for people who stand up to them.

I honestly can't think of anybody I hate. There are people I don't get along with -- people who I think are anti-social, and even just people who have totally different philosophies and goals in life. I don't hate any of them. I just don't hang out with them. They get removed from my life.

Some women will continue socializing with people they dislike and stirring up drama just to have something to talk about.





I agree. Sometimes it seems that much of the supposed "male and female traits" are really nothing more than socially imposed roles, not actual genetic make up.

And I can totally understand why these female traits that get over-emphasized by CDs would drive GGs crazy. It's all about femininity for CDs, and as a GG I'm sure you constantly look at specific things and say, "That's absurd! I'm totally female and I'm nothing like that!"

But CDs are just trying to balance out their male side by going overboard on the female side. How many CDs think petticoats are adorable? How many GGs think that's nauseating? :)





Exactly. It isn't a matter or whether or not women are or aren't catty. Everybody is. Men included. So when its attributed to just one gender, its inaccurate.

...

In other words, its not a female thing. Its not a male thing. Its a human thing.

That's just wrong. Being catty is a human trait, but it's a trait that's much more prevalent in young women. You can't deny that, just like you can't deny that young men have aggressive behaviors they engage in much more often which tend to get them in trouble. 49% of the total US population is male, but 95% of the US prison population is male. Humans do not all have the same behaviors.

Your brain is a biological organ. We can document how estrogen and testosterone change your brain function. Even beyond the effects of estrogen and testosterone, male and female brains are different.

An African is much more likely to get Sickle-cell. A Jew is much more likely to get Tay-Sachs. A young girl is more likely to say bad things about you behind your back. A young guy is more likely to punch you in the face.

Debutante
11-17-2008, 08:06 PM
Well, after discussing this with my wife: I was wrong about the animus thingy... it's more, she thought, that women get insecure... need a GG to straighten me out on this...
Well, duh...! Debutante's not quite in the female world yet... :-)

battybattybats
11-17-2008, 09:16 PM
This whole "acceptance" thing has gone way too far. Soon we'll see people saying that guys with shaved heads and swastika tattoos are being unfairly stereotyped. You shouldn't be tolerant just for the sake of being tolerant. That's just being a wimp. There's all kinds of anti-social behavior that people shouldn't tolerate.

Thanks for illustrating exactly whats wrong with your argument with a perfect example.

You see the swastika has been for thousands of years one of the most sacred symbols across a large portion of the world. As one of the Etruscan Runes it's part of one of the oldest symbols of Europe. Accross most of Asia from India to Malaysia it is a sacred symbol. So yes, a person with a shaved head and swastika tattoos may be easilly unfairly stereotyped as a Nazi when he or she may in fact be a Bhuddist a Daoist a Hindu or a Pagan! You'll find Swastikas ethced into the woodwork on many Bhuddist Hindu and Daoist temples. You'll find it tattoood on the skin of monks and nuns and followers of some of those faiths. You'll find it tattoooed on mummified bodies!

Stereotyping is a common but sloppy thinking process, frequently in error. It ignores the variety of humanity.

As for 'anti-social', many 'anti-social' behaviour is freedom of expression. Only when it becomes a form of assault or harassment is it not. Plenty of people consider being different and non-conforming anti-social. Sorry, I'm not giving up my momento mori fashion accessories just because some people find it disturbing to see artful reminders of mortality. But people spitting on unwilling others? That is unethical and appropriate to condemn, because the line, the limit is others rights. Ethics, rights, thats the only valid limit of tolerance. Anything else is bigotry.


Stereotypes are mostly based in fact.

Then why are most Goths happy, positive, mentally stable people as shown by large sociological studies whose findings run totally against the stereotype? Why are there so many masculine and mucho gay men? Why are there so few Gay pedophiles? After all the steroetype used to be that all Gays were pedophiles!


There's nothing inherently wrong with them. What most people call a stereotype is just using common sense.

Hogwash!
The stereotype that woman are not killers or rapists or molesters has resulted in women suspects being ignored till they kill again, women suicide bombers getting to their targets, women rapists getting away with rape and child molesters molesting.

I know of one example of this where a 14 year old boy a few years older than me in a town I used to live in complained to the police about being raped by a 30 year old woman. They laughed at that and the kid killed himself. Thats what stereotypes do.

This 'common sense' you think is valid is really infused with myths and lies that hurt people!


Airport security now has to spend a lot of time harassing 90-year-old women because they're not allowed to do statistically accurate profiling. Since the invention of the airplane there has only ever been one female hijacker -- a 25-year-old Palestinian woman. Regardless, it is considered unfair to stereotype old women as people that don't hijack airplanes, so everybody needs to have their time wasted.

Hijacker yes, attempted bomber? Did you forget the couple with their child who tried to get a bomb on a plane? Noticed the female suicide bombers? They are growing swiftly in numbers.


Likewise, a girl doesn't generally care if a guy has 20" rims or if he beat Guitar Hero on Expert, but you can't deny that there are a lot of guys out there who are competitive about things like that.

The only people i know who play guitar hero are women!


People are naturally going to stereotype. Bigotry is what's bad. Bigotry is when you don't give someone a chance to prove a stereotype wrong.

So holding a stereotype is good but acting on it is bad? Because the instant you act on it you have just prevented them from having and using that chance to do so without your action interfering with their behaviour. If you act on it you risk setting up a self-fulfilling prophecy. The angry black man or stand-offish withdrawn Goth could just be reacting to your behaviour as you expect them both to be potential threats, your body language and personal space negotiation being defencive they will then react to that.


Ever notice how often women talk about people they don't like? I'm not saying all women are like that, but many women will express outright hatred for people,

Many women I've known that is true for including my ex. But it is true for none that I know right now!


and that's something you almost never see with men.

My experience refutes that utterly. Racism, sexism, homophobia, hatred of specific religious beliefs or subcultures and even hatred of children, dogs or cats I have all seen expressed outright by men. Some of that in the last week.


Maybe it's just that men work their feelings out better through overt competition and aggression, whereas women just sort of let it build up.

Nope.


I'm sure many of us have seen the situation at a party or somewhere when two guys get mad at each other. They might even end up going outside and beating the crap out of each other, but a lot of times they'll be acting like best friends five minutes later. Aggressive guys gain a lot of respect for people who stand up to them.

I have been in physical combat with more than 30 males. I stopped counting halfway through highschool and so thats not counting the third Highschool. And that respect thing has happened to me just once.


Some women will continue socializing with people they dislike and stirring up drama just to have something to talk about.

I know as many men who do that as women.


And I can totally understand why these female traits that get over-emphasized by CDs would drive GGs crazy. It's all about femininity for CDs, and as a GG I'm sure you constantly look at specific things and say, "That's absurd! I'm totally female and I'm nothing like that!"

But CDs are just trying to balance out their male side by going overboard on the female side. How many CDs think petticoats are adorable? How many GGs think that's nauseating? :)

Thats cause everyone is a mixture of masculine and feminine and no-one is 100% of either.


That's just wrong. Being catty is a human trait, but it's a trait that's much more prevalent in young women. You can't deny that, just like you can't deny that young men have aggressive behaviors they engage in much more often which tend to get them in trouble. 49% of the total US population is male, but 95% of the US prison population is male. Humans do not all have the same behaviors.

The proportion of violent and sexual crime perpetrated by women is on the rise. Some of that is a willingness to consider women as suspects so more is discovered. Some of that is greater reporting as more men women and children raped by women are reporting the crimes. And some is believed to be a result of women shrugging off the psychological internalised sexism and realising that they can actually do these things rather than just think about doing them.

It may well be that the crime rate ends up 50/50! At the least the truth of a hidden epidemic of domestic violence, rape and child molestation perpetrated by women is slowly coming out, it may still be significantly less than those crimes committed by men but it is vastly higher than society had ever dreamed or will still acknowledge!

And women pedophiles, rapists etc often receive lighter sentences or are aquitted because of sexism in the legal system so using the prison population is an invalid source as the data is biased.


Your brain is a biological organ. We can document how estrogen and testosterone change your brain function. Even beyond the effects of estrogen and testosterone, male and female brains are different.

on average the average male brain is different from the average female brain. But the average difference between two common male brains or two female is greater than the difference between the average male brain and the average female brain (according to two Australian neurologists on the episode of Insight on male/female brain science) and there is wide diversity amongst all human brains.


An African is much more likely to get Sickle-cell. A Jew is much more likely to get Tay-Sachs.

These are known genetic traits. But the stereotype that the African will kill and eat you and the Jew will sacrifice christian babies are perfect examples of the lies propagated through stereotypes that have killed people and not just a few but thousands of people.

And as some of my ancestry is Carpathian Gypsy and therefore I had distant relatives murdered in the holocaust in the Nazi Death Camps because of a stereotype I'd like to point out what accepting stereotypes leads too.

Considering the oppression of Gypsies in many European Countries right now, considering the oppression of Goths in Russia right now I think I can comfortably condemn the accepting of stereotypes as sloppy, lazy, frequently incorrect thinking based not just on averages ignoring diversity and variability but often on lies!


A young girl is more likely to say bad things about you behind your back. A young guy is more likely to punch you in the face.

Guys gossip behing peoples back a plenty. Women are often violent and are gaining ground.

Stereotypes and generalisation were good tools for evading Smilodon and Dire Wolves and 40-foot long goanna, they improved the odds in imediate life-or-death situations so long as they were right. In a life-or-death imediate situation it made evolutionary sense.

But for most of us this is not the case so we do not have an excuse for sloppy lazy thinking that causes harm to other people, especially when based of untrue myths and lies.

DemonicDaughter
11-17-2008, 10:19 PM
Well I think Batty pretty much covered anything I would have stated except...

Many people that post here snicker about each other. I've gotten several PMs from people going on tangents about others here. And about clothing, looks, hair, makeup, etc.

Just because there might be a different way of saying it, doesn't mean its not being catty.

Raquel June
11-18-2008, 12:59 AM
Thanks for illustrating exactly whats wrong with your argument with a perfect example.

...

So yes, a person with a shaved head and swastika tattoos may be easilly unfairly stereotyped as a Nazi when he or she may in fact be a Bhuddist a Daoist a Hindu or a Pagan! You'll find Swastikas ethced into the woodwork on many Bhuddist Hindu and Daoist temples. You'll find it tattoood on the skin of monks and nuns and followers of some of those faiths. You'll find it tattoooed on mummified bodies!

I really don't think I need to explain how Hindu swastikas look significantly different from Nazi swastikas, and that there's a big difference between the way a monk dresses and the way a Neo-Nazi dresses. Very few people are dumb enough to apply Nazi stereotypes to monks.




As for 'anti-social', many 'anti-social' behaviour is freedom of expression. Only when it becomes a form of assault or harassment is it not.

I was really equating anti-social activity with harassment. Beating the hell out of someone is a way of expressing yourself. There's a lot of Mapplethorpe art that is blatant harassment of Christians. Freedom of expression only goes so far. Just because something's technically legal doesn't mean we are morally obligated to tolerate it.



Plenty of people consider being different and non-conforming anti-social.

That's true. I probably shouldn't have even used the term "anti-social." But I've always been totally confused by people feeling it takes effort to tolerate people who are different. What do you care if someone's gay? Or if they're just plain weird? If they're not hurting you, what exactly is there for you to tolerate? The whole idea that some people need to be "tolerant" of someone's lifestyle implies that mere knowledge of their existence is hard to stomach.




Then why are most Goths happy, positive, mentally stable people as shown by large sociological studies whose findings run totally against the stereotype? Why are there so many masculine and mucho gay men? Why are there so few Gay pedophiles? After all the steroetype used to be that all Gays were pedophiles!

Those are some really negative stereotypes, though, and I don't know anybody who holds any of them. Maybe some people think all gay people are pedophiles, but I never met one.

But I suppose maybe that's more of what people are talking about when they say stereotype, so maybe I was using the term wrong.

I was thinking more along the lines of people who accuse others of stereotyping when they follow actual demographics, like guys like action movies and girls like love stories. Those stereotypes aren't always true, but there's not any reason to get bent out of shape about them.




The stereotype that woman are not killers or rapists or molesters has resulted in women suspects being ignored till they kill again, women suicide bombers getting to their targets, women rapists getting away with rape and child molesters molesting.

I know of one example of this where a 14 year old boy a few years older than me in a town I used to live in complained to the police about being raped by a 30 year old woman. They laughed at that and the kid killed himself. Thats what stereotypes do.

That's not something you can blame on a stereotype. That's something you can blame on the police being idiots. It's the police's fault for not believing the kid. We all know that stereotypes aren't true all the time. Pretending a stereotype is always true is a horrible thing.

But you have to look at the other side of the story. It's a fact that men are a few orders of magnitude more likely to be rapists than women. It's a fact that lonely white guys are much more likely to be serial killers. Are you honestly suggesting that police put the resources into investigating as many women as they do men in these crimes?



Anyway, you're just rambling on and on and on. If I somehow did have concrete statistics saying young women are 3X as likely to be "catty" as young men and young men are 3X as likely to start physical fights as young women, you'd still just go on pointing out cases where that's not true.

We all know there are plenty cases where it's not true, though. We all know nice girls, and we all know nice guys, and hopefully those are the ones we hang out with.

I'm confused as to what your motivation is to try to pretend that men and women are socially identical and are equally as likely to exhibit certain behaviors. I'm sure you know that's untrue. What's your agenda?




The proportion of violent and sexual crime perpetrated by women is on the rise. Some of that is a willingness to consider women as suspects so more is discovered. Some of that is greater reporting as more men women and children raped by women are reporting the crimes. And some is believed to be a result of women shrugging off the psychological internalised sexism and realising that they can actually do these things rather than just think about doing them.

It may well be that the crime rate ends up 50/50! At the least the truth of a hidden epidemic of domestic violence, rape and child molestation perpetrated by women is slowly coming out

Wow. So there are just as many female rapists as males, but this is being covered up by some sort of massive conspiracy? I didn't realize you had gone totally insane. I guess I'll just let it go, then.




Many people that post here snicker about each other. I've gotten several PMs from people going on tangents about others here. And about clothing, looks, hair, makeup, etc.

Well, they are trying to be girly ... a lot of these CDs would be totally flattered if you said "Meow!" to them. Besides, a lot of people say things around here that are worth snickering at :)

jessielee
11-18-2008, 01:13 AM
It seems some people that want to present as females often specifically pick what is considered a "typical female trait" to over-emphasize their femininity. ... Its human to want to feel attractive. Not just female, not just male. Human. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]


not to backtrack too much but i liked this. DD has ever said so much for me and to me, as if knowing me better than my own family and closest friends, in a demonstration of how very different people from utterly diverse locations and paths can share and edify.
i'm sometimes frothy dizzy; my silly response to all the potential stereotyping and overcompensating is to suggest that, since its socially imposed on us by some or would be that ggs are ___________, call it "venusian," some try so ardently to live up to it that they overshoot and approach a "mercurial" state? perhaps some ggs wanting to be more "alpha," more "assertive" aim too fervently for "mars" and end up an asteroid? somewhere in the belt.
but very sincerely, i appreciate so much the moderating insights found in this thread. rather than, "women are _________, men are _________," isn't it liberating to see that, seeming majorities or trends be hanged, there are hard and calloused men and women, catty, forceful, snide, vindictive, manipulative, etc. all about us. and also "sensitive," "creative," "intuitive," gentle, empathic, caring and edifying, too, wherever we go? thank God for kindred spirits.
all i ever wanted to be was to be attractive, as DD said. but not as sexual bait. to see and receive and approve of myself, to forgive myself for not being the person i wished i were.
all of you help me to embrace what is gracious and appealing, in myself and in all of you as well.
thank you,
jessie

battybattybats
11-18-2008, 02:12 AM
I really don't think I need to explain how Hindu swastikas look significantly different from Nazi swastikas, and that there's a big difference between the way a monk dresses and the way a Neo-Nazi dresses. Very few people are dumb enough to apply Nazi stereotypes to monks.

Except that these things HAVE occured. Temples damaged because people thought the swastika was pro-nazi. And a follower of bhuddism can also be a punk! In fact bhuddism is popular amongst the punks I know. Someone seeing a mohawked punk with a swastika on his back wreathed in blue flames did not get the difference and through a drink over them.


I was really equating anti-social activity with harassment. Beating the hell out of someone is a way of expressing yourself.

But no use of a right is valid when it violates anothers right. Thats the only way all rights can be equal.


There's a lot of Mapplethorpe art that is blatant harassment of Christians.

Got a link on this? Also there is a difference between blaspheming against and criticisng religion in art literature etc and harrassing observers of that religion. Freedom of religion does to a large extent require freedom to blaspheme and freedom to criticise religious beliefs.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2008/2397051.htm


Freedom of expression only goes so far. Just because something's technically legal doesn't mean we are morally obligated to tolerate it.

Absolutely! When the law errs against rights the law must be reformed.


That's true. I probably shouldn't have even used the term "anti-social." But I've always been totally confused by people feeling it takes effort to tolerate people who are different. What do you care if someone's gay? Or if they're just plain weird? If they're not hurting you, what exactly is there for you to tolerate? The whole idea that some people need to be "tolerant" of someone's lifestyle implies that mere knowledge of their existence is hard to stomach.

Indeed it is bizarre to those of us without that mindset. This is one line of thinking on the issue http://www.abc.net.au/rn/philosopherszone/stories/2008/2416020.htm


Those are some really negative stereotypes, though, and I don't know anybody who holds any of them. Maybe some people think all gay people are pedophiles, but I never met one.

I've met heaps,a nd being goth and effeminate and therefore gay to many I've suffered because of those stereotypes.


But I suppose maybe that's more of what people are talking about when they say stereotype, so maybe I was using the term wrong.

Aren't they all still stereotypes?


I was thinking more along the lines of people who accuse others of stereotyping when they follow actual demographics, like guys like action movies and girls like love stories. Those stereotypes aren't always true, but there's not any reason to get bent out of shape about them.

But often they are false. Lots of women like watching porn, but few admit it because they aren't supposed to like watching porn. There are guys who don't but if they say so people will think they are gay so they dont. Same with romance. I know a very straight guy who hates porn except for rare pieces of hentai and loves Jane Austen movies and books.

And other than that it is also true that many people are not the average of their group but to one side or the other of the bell curve. As such if there are 5 guys and you assume all like action movies but only three do and two don't then while the average is true you just made two simple mistakes you could have avoided if you just asked first.

Thats why screening based on demographics is a risk to national security as all the terrorists need to do is recruit bombers outside of the demographics, which is why they started recruiting female suicide bombers.

There are enough exceptions to every generalisation to make acting on the generalisation a potentially great error.


That's not something you can blame on a stereotype. That's something you can blame on the police being idiots. It's the police's fault for not believing the kid. We all know that stereotypes aren't true all the time. Pretending a stereotype is always true is a horrible thing.

Stereotypes inform sexism and errors like this. How far should people act as if the stereotype is true?


But you have to look at the other side of the story. It's a fact that men are a few orders of magnitude more likely to be rapists than women. It's a fact that lonely white guys are much more likely to be serial killers. Are you honestly suggesting that police put the resources into investigating as many women as they do men in these crimes?

The current data has men more often perpetrators. But it has been in the past very rare for men to report it, even moreso than for women to report it. So the numbers could be closer than has been suspected in the past.

What I'm suggesting is simply letting the evidence lead the investigation irrespective of using demographics to screen suspects.


Anyway, you're just rambling on and on and on. If I somehow did have concrete statistics saying young women are 3X as likely to be "catty" as young men and young men are 3X as likely to start physical fights as young women, you'd still just go on pointing out cases where that's not true.

Of course. Because such a point is valid. Have you ever played a roleplaying game or wargame (the ones with dice)? It's a great way of learning to respect the consequences of dice not falling on the average number. You see to act only as if the average were true is dangerous. You must be prepared for the possibilities on the rest of the bell curve to show up.


I'm confused as to what your motivation is to try to pretend that men and women are socially identical and are equally as likely to exhibit certain behaviors. I'm sure you know that's untrue. What's your agenda?

I have not said that at all. Firstly I never said men and women were socially identical. Nor did I say they were equally likely to exhibit certain behaviours, though it only takes a brief glance at Anthropology to see that almost all of these are culturally specific, but what I did say was that even if some behaviours are more commonly male than female (as per brains being different) that there are huge variations and large numbers of maleish females and femalish males.

Do you understand ranges? The average roll of a 6 sided dice is 3.5. Something that can't actually be rolled. But gender variation is more like rolling a 20-sided dice. The average is 10.5. Now if you say that me add 2 to their dice rolls and women subtract two you get a good measure of how gender and neurology appears to work.

Average male 12.5, average female 8.5 but plenty of men will roll 1 for a result of 3 and plenty of women will roll 20 for a result of 18.

Now have a second dice roll for sexuality. And another for aggression.

See the pattern? A small sex based distribution of averages but plenty of people individually all over the place!

If you still have trouble with the idea find Zoe Brain's blog and search for the post Bi-Gender and the Brain for the latest on sex-differences, sexuality, Intersex Transexuals and brain-neurology.


Wow. So there are just as many female rapists as males, but this is being covered up by some sort of massive conspiracy? I didn't realize you had gone totally insane. I guess I'll just let it go, then.

I didn't say that. Domestic violence is being estimated at close to 50/50 but with women causing less lasting or hospitalisable damage.

Rape appears still far behind but the social pressure not to admit to being raped by a woman is very strong, Still I know men that have been, even violently, and never reported it. A lot of criminalogists have put estimates at about 10-1 men to women rapists!

And as I said numbers are rising. So they may reach 50/50. Not are 50/50 now but may reach 50/50.

The difference in what i said and how you read it is significant.