Hormones influencing sexual preference

[Violetgray]

I was watching a documentary concerning a mtf ts who was going through hrt and for the most part it was standard fare, "I always knew I was in the wrong body," blah blah blah you know the drill. We see the same documentary about transgendered people 100k times, but when it comes on we watch it anyway because we like to see how well they transitioned, or there are aspects of their story that we can identify with. ANYWAY, so I'm watching this and I hear her say this:

(slightly paraphrasing)
"All my life I have loved and dated women. But as I began to take female hormones I felt toward being interested in men."

I wish there was some sort of gender referee who could throw a penalty flag or blow a whistle, but there isn't so I just found myself yelling at the screen..

"Female hormones do NOT make you like men!"

I shouldn't have to tell people this right? Everybody knows that gender and sexual preference don't necessarily go together right? Wrong. I've seen the same thing expressed on the forums so if you doubt that what I just said look at it this way..

If hormones determined who you wanted to be with, then everyone would be straight. Gay men and women still have normal levels of testosterone and estrogen but still they're here, they're queer, we get used to it.

Now I realize that with certain changes there can come a new period of self discovery, and you may find out things about yourself that you never realized were there. I also think that perhaps these feelings might be enhanced by the emotion that tormented souls often take in the process of transitioning, but no amount of hormones is going to cause you to do a 180 on the sexual preference scale. If anyone wishes to prove me wrong I'd love to be enlightened.

[Jessicaparkson]

As far as I know I seriously doubt that hormones will change your preference. I believe that it is hardwired. Hormones will not change your mental hardwiring, for those who say hormones influenced them I would be interested in learning what other influences may have occurred. Perhaps mental resuggestion, or a kind of awakening maybe. Very interesting indeed.

[Steph Butterfield]

I know transwomen who were straight men pre transition i.e they wanted the company of females, but became straight women post op, i e they wanted the company of men now that they had the correct equipment.

I know transmen who were attracted to men pre transition, then post op were attracted to women.

Sometimes a straight man transitions, then becomes a lesbian post op. sometimes a lesbian woman pre transition becomes a straight man post op.

Basically sexuality is neither hard wired as it is fluid, it very variable as it is in the general population.


Stephanie (someone who was classified as a gay male pre transition, but post transition is a straight woman with bi curious tendancies)

[jules3367]

I know transwomen who were straight men pre transition i.e they wanted the company of females, but became straight women post op, i e they wanted the company of men now that they had the correct equipment.

I know transmen who were attracted to men pre transition, then post op were attracted to women.

Sometimes a straight man transitions, then becomes a lesbian post op. sometimes a lesbian woman pre transition becomes a straight man post op.

Basically sexuality is neither hard wired as it is fluid, it very variable as it is in the general population.


Stephanie (someone who was classified as a gay male pre transition, but post transition is a straight woman with bi curious tendancies)


I'm gonna try and add my tuppence worth if that's ok ... ?

I'm at a point in my life where everything has changed drastically in the last 12 months, seperation leading to divorce, I have for the most part stop fighting my internal demons, and have come to accept myself more

Here's the 'crunch', i 'hid away' ( people call it being 'in the closet' ) but with all the hassles going on, ill health, un-empployment, threats etc etc the 'alone time' forced me to take a step back and examine my whole life ( middle-aged crisis ?? )

I always assumed my sexuality 'was written in stone' and even though i never dated anyone i settled down and married a sympathetic gg, byt as time went on 'jules' wouldnt stay hiddden and kept 'seeping through' into everyday life

So here i am alone, dealing with a fair amount of crap, but now realising somewhere amongst all the personal crap i had buried is my 'attraction' to t-girls - and as i grow more relaxed about that and get more comfortable being jules my thoughts are 'drifting' towards 'bi-curiousity' - not acted on it but the thought is there

What i think happens is on the 'journey of discovery', we re-evaluate everything in our life and 'find stuff' we didn't know about ourselves -although i am more 'chilled', my moods have become more stable ( ok still the odd hissy fit, but definitely more crying and open-ness ) and my tastes in music & film has become more femme ( less rock music, less action movies to more dance music and more drama & comedy )

Freinds ( pre-op ts ) have mentioned they always like all things femme and therefore 'hung around' girls ( tg or gg ), and were 'asexual' so maybe its just part of the process when they 'feel complete' to then feel a connection to girls but seek attention / validation with male 'company'

Appologies for my vague references and un-certain terminology, i hope it doesn't offend anyone ?

Hugs
J xx

[melimelo]

How strange! I was discussing this with my therapist this Monday and she mentioned a research paper which studied the evolution of sexual orientation over time in a study group of MtF. In summary, it showed that the social pressure to be attracted to men once a MtF transitions is very strong. But that after some time, a small percentage would manifest an interest in women once again.

As most of the other messages above, gender and sexual orientation are 2 different things. But the social pressure is there nonetheless. And as a MtF transitioned friend once told me, "I'm not sure if I like men, but it sure is flattering to have one trying to seduce you..."

[Kristen Kelly]

How strange! I was discussing this with my therapist this Monday and she mentioned a research paper which studied the evolution of sexual orientation over time in a study group of MtF. In summary, it showed that the social pressure to be attracted to men once a MtF transitions is very strong. But that after some time, a small percentage would manifest an interest in women once again.

As most of the other messages above, gender and sexual orientation are 2 different things. But the social pressure is there nonetheless. And as a MtF transitioned friend once told me, "I'm not sure if I like men, but it sure is flattering to have one trying to seduce you..."

I do agree with what you have to say, the peer pressure for me to date men since I had begun my transition has been very strong, my preference is GG women, and that is what I have been dating, but I do enjoy the company of men out, and have gone out to dinner a time or two, an admirier can make you feel so much like a woman and we all love to hear the compliments.

[Joann0830]

I was watching a documentary concerning a mtf ts who was going through hrt and for the most part it was standard fare, "I always knew I was in the wrong body," blah blah blah you know the drill. We see the same documentary about transgendered people 100k times, but when it comes on we watch it anyway because we like to see how well they transitioned, or there are aspects of their story that we can identify with. ANYWAY, so I'm watching this and I hear her say this:

(slightly paraphrasing)
"All my life I have loved and dated women. But as I began to take female hormones I felt toward being interested in men."

I wish there was some sort of gender referee who could throw a penalty flag or blow a whistle, but there isn't so I just found myself yelling at the screen..

"Female hormones do NOT make you like men!"

I shouldn't have to tell people this right? Everybody knows that gender and sexual preference don't necessarily go together right? Wrong. I've seen the same thing expressed on the forums so if you doubt that what I just said look at it this way..

If hormones determined who you wanted to be with, then everyone would be straight. Gay men and women still have normal levels of testosterone and estrogen but still they're here, they're queer, we get used to it.

Now I realize that with certain changes there can come a new period of self discovery, and you may find out things about yourself that you never realized were there. I also think that perhaps these feelings might be enhanced by the emotion that tormented souls often take in the process of transitioning, but no amount of hormones is going to cause you to do a 180 on the sexual preference scale. If anyone wishes to prove me wrong I'd love to be enlightened.

I agree with you you wise and beautiful Lady, There is a curious side to all but the action is not from the Hormones. As ladies we are curious but the reality is we do not have the equipement. There is another blog here somewhere basically the same thoughts and I avoided that one but yours hit home as at 60 I am seriously going to transition and spoke to my friend who was my teacher (Psyhcologist) we had the same conversation and he concurred that what you say is True, Hormones will not make you want to be with a man. Its your preference as to who you want to be with. Your Friend Joann0830:battingeyelashes::heehee::love:

[Nicki B]

I wish there was some sort of gender referee who could throw a penalty flag or blow a whistle, but there isn't so I just found myself yelling at the screen..

"Female hormones do NOT make you like men!"

I shouldn't have to tell people this right? Everybody knows that gender and sexual preference don't necessarily go together right? Wrong.

I'm sorry, Violet, but I've personally seen it happen more than a dozen times. Not to everybody, certainly, but many do start their transition desiring women, some yo-yo violently during transition (there seems to be a stage sometimes when hormones can make you want to jump anything?) then settle down to fancying men...

But I tend to the theory that humans have a latent tendency to bisexuality anyway - it depends on the conditions they find themselves in? Look what happens in closed, single-sex environments, like prisons, schools, ships...

[Violetgray]

I'm sorry, Violet, but I've personally seen it happen more than a dozen times. Not to everybody, certainly, but many do start their transition desiring women, some yo-yo violently during transition (there seems to be a stage sometimes when hormones can make you want to jump anything?) then settle down to fancying men...

But I tend to the theory that humans have a latent tendency to bisexuality anyway - it depends on the conditions they find themselves in? Look what happens in closed, single-sex environments, like prisons, schools, ships...


I am willing to believe during this time some people are willing act on and explore desires that they might not have before transition. But I do not believe that transition is a catalyst for change in sexual preference. If I were forcibly abducted, force-fed hormones and forced to undergo surgery (I know this is sounding like bad tg fiction) I'm pretty sure that when the whole thing was complete I would not be any more attracted to men than I am now. I believe that some people are born bisexual, and some are not. There is a lot of pressure to be straight, and so a bisexual person may just settle for the opposite sex for long while. Perhaps with those people feel free to explore their latent tendencies, especially during transition, when they are free to identify as the opposite gender!

[Suzy Harrison]

This is interesting because at one of the lectures I attended at the SCC in Atlanta, one of the doctors mentioned that in taking female hormones it is very usual for your sexual orientation to change towards males.

[SirTrey]

Hi Violet...I can offer the perspective from the transguy side of things....Before I started testosterone, I had to do some sessions with a therapist...She told Me flat out, "you do realize that starting hormones can, and often does, change or clarify your sexual orientation, right?" I was with a longterm partner who was male....she said, "this could very well be the end of your relationship", to which I replied, "I am aware of that"....I have always identified as bisexual or pansexual....not anymore....Straight guy here now....I am ONLY attracted to women....NO interest in men, whatsoever....I have been on T now for 10 months, that relationship ended (after 7 years) and I am happily in a relationship with a wonderful girl.....So it can and does happen....Not always....but be aware that changing your hormones and changing your life that radically can change a LOT of things.....Hope that helps....:) **Trey**

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i actually think it's pretty simple...most people are predominatly hetero...my brain think's i'm a girl..80+ % chance i'm going to go with guys...that;s just the human condition

however

i don't have a vagina, i am only now developing breasts....i only now have female hormones coursing through my body....i view my acceptance of my gender identity as opening up my true sexuality which is in my brain just like my gender.... as a guy, i had no interest in guys..do straight women enjoy looking at guys having sex?? i don't i've always pretended to be like the other guys and the fantasy of 2 girls never did anything for me...

now that i've been with guys, i;ve found for the first time in my life (how sad:sad:) i can be "present" during sex and i don't have to fantasize in my mind and i can just enjoy the moment..(i still have fantasies i just don't NEED them EVERY TIME to enjoy sex)

so say what you want but it seems to me that if you call me "gay" or that my sexuality "changed" then you are going against everything that being ts means,

i beleive that my willingness to be with a guy increased as my ABILITY TO ENJOY IT changed. this happened as the physical and mental changes that began with my acceptance of my identity and the hormones made me feel more and more like a woman . for the first time in my life i can feel "right" in bed, and that's a good thing.

[Jessicaparkson]

I stand corrected. After discussing this topic with some other psych students as well as my psych I'll admit I was wrong. That teaches me to post when I'm tired and not fully awake :)

[Nicki B]

If I were forcibly abducted, force-fed hormones and forced to undergo surgery (I know this is sounding like bad tg fiction) I'm pretty sure that when the whole thing was complete I would not be any more attracted to men than I am now.

I just don't think you can say that with certainty until you've been through the process for yourself? Some of those dozen said the same thing to me, before starting hormones.

[Scotty]

Hormones changed his body to a her body, and being free she went the way her MIND hazs told her "all of her life" that she was a woman.

Women are generaly naturally attracted to men.

End of story.

[Priss]

I was watching a documentary concerning a mtf ts who was going through hrt and for the most part it was standard fare, "I always knew I was in the wrong body," blah blah blah you know the drill. We see the same documentary about transgendered people 100k times, but when it comes on we watch it anyway because we like to see how well they transitioned, or there are aspects of their story that we can identify with. ANYWAY, so I'm watching this and I hear her say this:

(slightly paraphrasing)
"All my life I have loved and dated women. But as I began to take female hormones I felt toward being interested in men."

I wish there was some sort of gender referee who could throw a penalty flag or blow a whistle, but there isn't so I just found myself yelling at the screen..

"Female hormones do NOT make you like men!"

I shouldn't have to tell people this right? Everybody knows that gender and sexual preference don't necessarily go together right? Wrong. I've seen the same thing expressed on the forums so if you doubt that what I just said look at it this way..

If hormones determined who you wanted to be with, then everyone would be straight. Gay men and women still have normal levels of testosterone and estrogen but still they're here, they're queer, we get used to it.

Now I realize that with certain changes there can come a new period of self discovery, and you may find out things about yourself that you never realized were there. I also think that perhaps these feelings might be enhanced by the emotion that tormented souls often take in the process of transitioning, but no amount of hormones is going to cause you to do a 180 on the sexual preference scale. If anyone wishes to prove me wrong I'd love to be enlightened.

I'd be another one who is of the opinion that we are actually born bisexual in nature. Society however puts pressure on us all to conform to one standard or another. Transition, is that time in our lives where we've gotten past the pressure to conform to some norm, and can finally let our hair back down again. We open ourselves up once again to possibilities that we previously would not accept. Hormones, like alcohol and drugs, probably do facilitate the process, but I have never heard of one single person who has had their sexuality switched merely by taking them.

I'd suspect that anyone who is blaming their sexuality on their hormones, is really just fooling themselves. They need to take a hard look at what it was that they were really feeling and thinking. Our sexuality isn't just the physical reactions we get from others, like getting a boner when looking at a sexy babe. What about that time that we may have gotten a boner or felt something strange inside ourselves from looking at some sexy guy in the locker room and stuffed it down somewhere deep in our pit of denial? At that time we just did not allow ourselves to explore such feelings due to the implications of what it could mean...

I think it's too bad that people just say those kinds of things without really thinking about it. It can put misinformation out there that gets picked up by specific groups and used against us. We have a hard enough time convincing those around us that what we are feeling is real, that we are not part of some strange cult or doing this on some sort of whim. I suspect some have already heard this meme, "Oh, you're just being influenced by the hormones."

[emmicd]

I believe M-F TS who fully transition and are feminine and like being women would naturally be attracted to the opposite sex. Logically the opposite sex would be male.

emmi

[Raquel June]

I wish there was some sort of gender referee who could throw a penalty flag or blow a whistle, but there isn't so I just found myself yelling at the screen..

"Female hormones do NOT make you like men!"

You obviously feel pretty strongly about this. So do you think the transitioning girl was lying about her sexual preference? Your life has to be a pretty open book to be on a TS documentary. I can't imagine how she would be motivated to be in any way deceptive about her preference either before or after hormones.

Are you on estrogen or t-blockers?

Obviously hormones aren't related to whether you're gay or straight. Gay guys are attracted to males the way straight guys are attracted to females. But straight females are not attracted to guys the same way gay guys are. There is something relating to hormones going on.

I don't think sexual preference is nearly as simple as most people think. I'm very attracted to feminine beauty. I've been on and off spiro. The testosterone-based drive is a very specific feeling. It makes me want to grab a girl and do things to her. But if you're on testosterone blockers, your drive is going to diminish a lot. Also, estrogen makes me feel more in tune with deeper emotional feelings. I don't have a drive to be with a guy, but I don't really have a drive to be with a girl, either. I have more vague feelings about how I think someone can make me feel. In that sense, my fantasies are much more narcissistic. Where I would have very specific ideas about what I wanted to do to some girl before, now I have almost faceless fantasies about what someone could do for me.

I certainly don't speak for everyone. I'm just saying that I can understand how hormones can change things. They definitely change your emotions, and isn't your preference tied to emotions?

[melimelo]

Hi Violet...I can offer the perspective from the transguy side of things....Before I started testosterone, I had to do some sessions with a therapist...She told Me flat out, "you do realize that starting hormones can, and often does, change or clarify your sexual orientation, right?" I was with a longterm partner who was male....she said, "this could very well be the end of your relationship", to which I replied, "I am aware of that"....I have always identified as bisexual or pansexual....not anymore....Straight guy here now....I am ONLY attracted to women....NO interest in men, whatsoever....I have been on T now for 10 months, that relationship ended (after 7 years) and I am happily in a relationship with a wonderful girl.....So it can and does happen....Not always....but be aware that changing your hormones and changing your life that radically can change a LOT of things.....Hope that helps....:) **Trey**

Thanks, noble Sir Trey, for sharing your experience. I appreciate the diversity of opinions, especially coming from our strong, silent brothers :battingeyelashes:

I haven't started hormones, having to take care of diverse alarums before proceeding... However, I refrain from taking too strong a position about how hormones affect or not the sexual orientation after transition. My own feeling is that it can depend on many factors, both physiological and psychological.

Just my :2c:

[Gina V.]

I have taken female HRT tabs now for 4 weeks and I have no feelings towards men but my little man boobs have developed quite quickly so I can now literally fill my 38b bra properly AND with hard nipples showing , I.m so excited at this I am wondering what will happen when my supply runs out, about 2 months on, I,m on my wifes discarded tabs, anyone know? Gina V.

[Raquel June]

Gina V. -

I really wish you wouldn't have said that. We were having a reasonable discussion here, and you just totally hijacked it. Now we're all going to have to tell you how stupid it is for you to use your wife's expired birth control to self-administer hormones.

Besides, I think you're lying. Four weeks isn't long enough to come to any conclusions on the long-term emotional effects of estrogen, and it's definitely not long enough to move up to a B-cup.

And what the hell do your hard nipples have to do with anything? I've got a pretty good sense of humor, but you're not contributing and I don't think you really belong in the TS section.

[Valeria]

Women are generaly naturally attracted to men.


I believe M-F TS who fully transition and are feminine and like being women would naturally be attracted to the opposite sex. Logically the opposite sex would be male.
As a femme queer woman who fully transitioned years ago, and who is naturally feminine, and who likes being a woman, this is actually quite offensive. Let me be blunt -- I'm everything on your list, and I'm attracted to other queer women (femme or butch).

Not all queer women are andro or butch, and not all feminine girls are straight. And I don't know a lot of lesbians who don't like being a woman.

But I'll let my queer femme girlfriends (and all my other dyke friends) know that they are unnatural, according to y'all. :Angry3:

[Lisa Golightly]

End of the day everyone is different and they can only speak from personal experience. For myself the first thing I noticed change was my sense of smell. Boys began to smell different... less Pheeew and more Phoooar. Another huge change came with a shift in erotic day/dreams. Now that was unexpected!! lol :)

[Violetgray]

As mentioned before, if I'm wrong, I'm more than willing to be enlightened. However, here's what I see:

I know many pre op TS's, some identified as bisexual before their transition, some as gay, some as straight. Whatever their sexuality, it never changed after HRT.

The influx of hormones influencing sexuality still wouldn't explain people who already have those hormones. If a lesbian, who has normal levels of estrogen, and whose body has had a lifetime to be influenced by them doesn't like men then how can that be the determining factor?

I believe that people who are able to love both men and women have always been able to do so. I also believe that any person who is only attracted to men now probably never liked woman so much in the first place. The reasons we chose who we want to be with, or change who we want to be with are purely psychological.

[Raquel June]

But I'll let my queer femme girlfriends (and all my other dyke friends) know that they are unnatural, according to y'all. :Angry3:

That's unfair. You're just looking for something to get mad about. The people you quoted shouldn't have to explain the biological reasons behind stating it is natural for men and women to be attracted to each other.




The reasons we chose who we want to be with, or change who we want to be with are purely psychological.

Many say that sexual preference is genetic. If you're going to argue that it's psychological, that actually hurts your case because estrogen and testosterone are undeniably mind-altering substances.

To be honest, though, I'm half playing devil's advocate here. I'm sure Valeria's right in stating (at least for many) that those who have a shift in sexual preference would likely have done so during their transition with or without hormones.

[Valeria]

I know many pre op TS's, some identified as bisexual before their transition, some as gay, some as straight. Whatever their sexuality, it never changed after HRT.
My sexuality didn't waver one iota, but I already had many years experience identifying as lesbian and presenting as female before I started HRT, and I was never in denial about my gender or my sexuality.

A lot of the people who experience this tend to be the ones who were in the deepest denial before. If they can suppress their gender identity, why not their sexuality? Gay people do it...


I also believe that any person who is only attracted to men now probably never liked woman so much in the first place.
It's entirely possible they are bi, but they crave validation and societal approval, thus their identifying (possibly quite strongly) as hetero before and after. Actually, you can come up with lots of possible explanations, and it's quite likely that various theories are true to varying degrees for different individuals. Think "multifactorial".

[Valeria]

That's unfair. You're just looking for something to get mad about.
What's unfair is having people state that ~5% of the population is contrary to nature, thus reinforcing heteronormative standards to the exclusion of gay people.

Particularly when someone impies that it's obvious that someone who is feminine and comfortable being a woman will be attracted to men. So since I'm attracted to women, which of those other qualities are not true for me?

These kinds of statements erase my identity.

They are also used to deny my partner and I marriage rights, which has led to my not being legally recognized as a parent of my daughter.

[shirley1]

Hi,

Its a tricky one to answer this, I can speak for myself and say that I have never been knowingly attracted to a man in my life, attracted to women but I do believe a lot of the attraction is made up of being attracted to their femininity, ie envyness towards them, but there is an attraction there.

Since I have started going out presenting as female I have come into contact with a few trans persons who seemingly become bi sexual when presenting en femme. No hormones involved there and some of them are married guys.

For myself I have been on HRT for 4 months now, my preference hasn't really changed, although my attraction towards women seems to have lessoned. However I did have a brief encounter with a guy a month or so back, just kissing ect, but I would never have done this a few years back, I tend now to be of the opinion that a lot of us are just conditioned into being attracted towards the opposite sex, and unless you feel strongly swayed towards the same sex the likelihood is you will go for the hetrosexual lifestyle.

Its made me rethink my sexuality, I would at the very least have to identify as bi curious now, but its complicated anyway, as a TS women being attracted to women makes me a lesbian, and men makes me straight.

So I will identify myself as bi now as its easier to understand.

[Raquel June]

I just fell asleep listening to Shoutcast and woke up to the Jan 8, 2004 episode of Loveline. Drew did some talking about the way estrogen gives you not so much a sex drive but a feeling of sexual receptivity. He also talked about how progesterone can have androgenic properties, and for some women it increases sex drive and for some it shuts it down.

Last night I went to a support group meeting, then a straight bar, then a gay bar with some friends. To give you an idea of the people I was with:

me -- kinda celibate bisexual M2F transsexual. On a low dose of estrogen. I was perfectly happy dating GGs in high school, and I was with the same GG for 12 years. I don't think I'll ever love anybody the way I loved her, so I have to disagree with the idea that I wasn't all that hetero to begin with.

Suzi -- married (well, divorce was just finalized) M2F crossdresser. Has been married at least twice. Viet-Nam vet. Often trying to pick up other M2Fs.

Holly -- M2F transsexual. Has had orchiectomy. Haven't really seen her dating anyone but has expressed interest in me and in guys from time to time.

Carol -- post-op M2F with full SRS. Married to a man.

Janete -- M2F crossdresser, actually a gay man. A really nice guy. Never actually seen him/her trying to hook up with anyone.

Kate -- M2F transsexual. Has had FFS. On HRT with 200mg/day spiro. Used to date GGs. Now only interested in men.

Cheryl -- M2F crossdresser. Happily married to a GG.



I actually feel a little out of place and depressed that I'm attracted to GGs. They're nice to me but certainly not interested in dating me (except a GG that ended up stalking me earlier this year). I wish kissing a guy wasn't a big turn-off for me, because I've met plenty who were interested. Not that it would be a good idea anyway, as most are married and looking to cheat on their wives with a M2F.

[GypsyKaren]

Taking a pill is not going to change who you're attracted to, but opening up your life can. We spend all those years trying to suppress and deny who we are, but once we begin to transition as our true selves can make us see that there's nothing wrong with doing or trying things that many other women (or men, if that's the case) would do. Lots of women are attracted to men, and you finally see that it's okay for you to be too, it's not the pill, you're just allowing yourself to be who you are...nothing wrong there at all.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Jenna1561]

I've never really been certain about my sexuality. I've been attracted to women all of my life; I've been married to my wife for 23 years. I have always considered myself female and now label myself a pre-op mtf ts. I've been on HRT for 10 months ( with a 10 week break in the middle). I have never been attracted to men and my attraction to women is based more on a personality attraction than a physical attraction. A great looking nude woman does not turn me on, nor does a great looking man. For me attractions only begin after I get to know someone, but even after getting to know a few men, I'm not attracted to them.

As for intimacy, I enjoy being intimate with my wife, but I didn't enjoy the male side of intercourse, for me it's work. I usually resort to fantasizing about being a woman and having sex as a woman. In these fantasies, my partner is anonymous - no face and I concentrate on what I believe it feels like to be taken and have someone inside me. I have always felt this way.

So, what does this make me? I haven't the slightest clue. Bisexual or at least bicurious. I can imagine myself having sex as a woman with both women and men. But I am repulsed about imagining sex as a male with a man. Someone stated that sexual orientation is fluid and I agree with that. I have no idea what to label myself, but I'd gues Bisexual is closest.

Jenna

[Sharon]

Taking a pill is not going to change who you're attracted to, but opening up your life can. We spend all those years trying to suppress and deny who we are, but once we begin to transition as our true selves can make us see that there's nothing wrong with doing or trying things that many other women (or men, if that's the case) would do. Lots of women are attracted to men, and you finally see that it's okay for you to be too, it's not the pill, you're just allowing yourself to be who you are...nothing wrong there at all.

Karen Starlene :star:

BINGO!!!! Insert an "applause" smilie here as I am too lazy to open that particular page right now.

My story is a bit irrelevant in this matter, in that I knew all my life that there was a definite attraction for men in me. But, as with my transsexuality, I denied those feelings until just the last several years. Since starting hormones a couple years ago, nothing has changed.

[Louise C]

Hope you all don't mind me putting my 2 cents in, - but do you think that hrt will make a man more open to the feelings that were buried deep inside? - He may have not let himself realise it with all that testosterone pumping around. Perhaps the hormones just let him express himself more openly, rather than actually "turning him" towards men.

[Raquel June]

I just have to disagree with the philosophy that I see a lot of -- that our personality somehow supersedes our biology. It's a fact that chemicals can change you a great deal. Your brain does nothing but create feelings and form responses/opinions about those feelings. Things that modify your neurotransmitters (anti-depressants, ecstasy, LSD) and hormones can change the most basic parts of us.

Again that's a bit of a devil's advocate statement. I think it's more about opening up your life, as Karen said. But you can't say hormones don't have the ability to change who you are.

[Valeria]

Here's what I know... A decent percentage of trans people undergo a shift in sexuality as part of transition, typically from "hetero" pre to hetero or bi post, or from "bi" pre to hetero post. There does not appear to be any causal relationship between starting hormones and this shift in sexuality -- the shift can occur at anytime from one or more years before starting HRT until many years after.


How strange! I was discussing this with my therapist this Monday and she mentioned a research paper which studied the evolution of sexual orientation over time in a study group of MtF. In summary, it showed that the social pressure to be attracted to men once a MtF transitions is very strong. But that after some time, a small percentage would manifest an interest in women once again.
I'm not so sure it's a small percentage. Lots of trans folk are bisexual (lots of cis folk are too), and their sexuality appears to be fluid at times.

I'd guess that, while certainly not universal, this shift back occurs to more than a small percentage of those who experience a sexuality shift during transition. It sometimes occurs just a few months later, though I know of one case where it occurred 30 years later.


And as a MtF transitioned friend once told me, "I'm not sure if I like men, but it sure is flattering to have one trying to seduce you..."
Eh. I'd describe it more as annoying than flattering. :)

But it appears that some trans women feel the need for having their sex validated through the attractions of a man.


I'm sorry, Violet, but I've personally seen it happen more than a dozen times. Not to everybody, certainly, but many do start their transition desiring women, some yo-yo violently during transition (there seems to be a stage sometimes when hormones can make you want to jump anything?) then settle down to fancying men...
You've actually seen hormone molecules modify sexual preference (which would be a neat trick, worthy of a very large research grant), or you've seen people have their sexuality shift during transition in general (sometimes, by chance, shortly after starting hormones)?

Because I've seen people follow the precise pattern you've described, even including the yo-yoing and the hypersexuality, without ever taking a single hormone, just from going full time and immersing themselves in their new life. In fact, lots of times trans women start fantasizing about having sex with a man soon after they first admit to themselves that they want to transition. I'd say less than half the time is the shift in sexuality even in close proximity to their having started hormones. Occam's razor tells me that if psychosocial factors can cause people to have their sexuality shift 9 months before starting hormones, or 6 years afterwards, then I don't need to hypothesize that the minority who experience sexuality changes shortly after starting hormones did so because of some biological effects of the hormones.

I've also seen cis males and females sometimes undergo a shift in their conscious sexuality, sometimes as late as their forties. I've met more than one lesbian who was married to a man for more than a decade earlier in her life and was convinced at the time she was straight. Actually, one of my closest dyke friends was engaged to a man when she realized "no, I really prefer girls -- I'm making a mistake" and she called off the engagement.


This is interesting because at one of the lectures I attended at the SCC in Atlanta, one of the doctors mentioned that in taking female hormones it is very usual for your sexual orientation to change towards males.
By chance, was this the lecture by the endocrinologist whose last name starts with "T"? Because if so, let me just note that he's been my endo for many years, and I like him a lot (he's very nice), but I wouldn't take his word on anything having to do with this. :)

Medicine he understands, but psychosocial stuff? He's really not an expert in that area, he mostly relies on anecdotal experience (and some of us have heard a lot more anecdotes than he has, and seen more of the transition process than he). And the therapist copresenting with him I know as well, but she's also not an expert on behavioral implications of neuroendocrinology alterations either.

IDK if either of them said that, because I haven't heard them say so precisely, but huge grain of salt either way. I respect him greatly on the biomedical side, however (though I like that he works with me to customize my HRT to suit my needs and desires).


I stand corrected. After discussing this topic with some other psych students as well as my psych I'll admit I was wrong.
I've seen peer-reviewed studies refuting that hormonal changes can alter sexual orientation in adults (prenatal and perinatal hormonal washes are completely different, as they are altering the sexualization of the brain during development), so I'd be fascinated to hear what they base their opinions on.

You know what happens if you give a lesbian testosterone? You get a horny lesbian (been there, done that :) ). You know what happens if you give a straight girl testosterone? You get a horny straight girl. Low-doses of testosterone are prescribed to females for precisely this reason.

Likewise, giving a straight man T-blockers and/or estrogen does *not* make him gay, and giving a gay many more testosterone is *definitely* not going to make him less gay (quite the contrary). Both questions have been analysed in studies. And so on. So I'm mystified why your classmates and instructor think otherwise (though I'm guessing that they simply are making assumptions -- from the perspective of someone who has taken a lot of psych classes, and who knows a lot of psych grad students, half of them aren't so good on the science part).

[Nicki B]

You've actually seen hormone molecules modify sexual preference (which would be a neat trick, worthy of a very large research grant), or you've seen people have their sexuality shift during transition in general (sometimes, by chance, shortly after starting hormones)?

I've certainly seen people shift their sexuality (often to their great shock and surprise, like Violet) once starting hormones - both before, during and after their transition. I have never witnessed a sexuality shift like that for anyone not taking hormones. My sample base is probably just into three figures.


Hormones can make significant body changes to amongst other things breasts, body fat, muscle mass and brain structure as well as affecting emotions - why is it so important to rubbish the possibility that this might affect one's sexuality? :strugglin

Is it a threatening concept, somehow? :idontknow:

[Valeria]

I've certainly seen people shift their sexuality (often to their great shock and surprise, like Violet) once starting hormones - both before, during and after their transition. I have never witnessed a sexuality shift like that for anyone not taking hormones. My sample base is probably just into three figures.
I know of numerous cases of sexuality shifting pre-HRT -- in the TS forum where I'm an admin, there are actually quite a few young women currently pre-HRT who have reported having sexual fantasies and a growing attraction towards men just in recent weeks. I also know of many instances of sexuality shifting many years post-HRT (in once case, I know of a complete reversal in sexuality in a woman over 30 years post-op!).

Of course, you and I are probably dealing with very different populations, since virtually all of the trans people I've dealt with closely have been under 50, with the majority under 30. The number under 20 alone is into 3 digits.

Also, I'm most familiar with people who are single, certain they are TS, and determined to transition as quickly as feasible -- not people who are uncertain about their identity, concerned about their wife's reaction, trying to preserve a pre-existing marriage, or otherwise taking a slow path.

So the psychsocial factors are probably quite different, which might explain our different observations. Though I am mystified that you seriously know hundreds of people whose orientation has been altered, but no one whose orientation underwent a shift beforehand. Maybe the difference is also partially explained by the greater homophobia present in older people? After all, "I'm not gay" is practically the mantra of the "straight" crossdressers in this forum (despite quite a few of them being attracted to males when crossdressed).

BTW, while rare, I've known a few trans women who went from gay pre-transition (i.e. liking boys) to bisexual or lesbian post-transition (i.e. liking girls). How does their taking estrogen explain that again? It makes you like boys, except when it makes you like girls?


Hormones can make significant body changes to amongst other things breasts, body fat, muscle mass and brain structure as well as affecting emotions
True, to varying degrees (and at different developmental stages, with regard to things like brain structure). And the really neat thing is that I've actually seen peer-reviewed articles supporting and measuring almost all those changes, and the others are well documented in my text books.

Whereas hormonally-induced changes to sexual orientation in an adult mammal have not been supported in various studies.


why is it so important to rubbish the possibility that this might affect one's sexuality?
Because constantly seeing unscientific urban legends repeated annoys me?

Besides, you are robbing people of their agency by making them slaves to their hormones, and you are perpetuating the myth that sexuality can easily be modified. You do realize that altering hormone levels was once a theory (now discredited) on how to "fix" gay people, right?


Is it a threatening concept, somehow?
Whether orientation changes are biological or psychosocial or both, I'm not too concerned about it personally. :)

I'm several years post-op (and post-HRT), and literally gayer than ever. Truth is, I think straight sex is kinda icky. :p

[And my sample size is larger than yours. :tongueout]

[Scotty]

As a femme queer woman who fully transitioned years ago, and who is naturally feminine, and who likes being a woman, this is actually quite offensive. Let me be blunt -- I'm everything on your list, and I'm attracted to other queer women (femme or butch).

Not all queer women are andro or butch, and not all feminine girls are straight. And I don't know a lot of lesbians who don't like being a woman.

But I'll let my queer femme girlfriends (and all my other dyke friends) know that they are unnatural, according to y'all. :Angry3:


I have to quote Tom Leykis here "Generally does not mean all women".

GENERALLY speaking at least the major majority of women are attracted to men.

There is nothing that should be taken offense to, if you are attracted to women great! No issue there, no offense intended.

But generally speaking....

[Nicki B]

Of course, you and I are probably dealing with very different populations, since virtually all of the trans people I've dealt with closely have been under 50, with the majority under 30. The number under 20 alone is into 3 digits.

Most of the people I'm thinking of are in the 30-40 bracket.


Also, I'm most familiar with people who are single, certain they are TS, and determined to transition as quickly as feasible -- not people who are uncertain about their identity, concerned about their wife's reaction, trying to preserve a pre-existing marriage, or otherwise taking a slow path.

So the psychsocial factors are probably quite different, which might explain our different observations.

One I was thinking of transitioned at 19, was on hormones by 20 - now, at 23, she's suddenly discovered to her shock (after being a very loud and proud millitant lesbian for the last few years) she fancies a boy..


Though I am mystified that you seriously know hundreds of people whose orientation has been altered, but no one whose orientation underwent a shift beforehand.

I know plenty who might admit to bi-tendencies beforehand - but none who has undergone a sudden, unexpected, shift without taking hormones?


BTW, while rare, I've known a few trans women who went from gay pre-transition (i.e. liking boys) to bisexual or lesbian post-transition (i.e. liking girls). How does their taking estrogen explain that again? It makes you like boys, except when it makes you like girls?

I simply make an observation, in reply to Violet's OP.


Because constantly seeing unscientific urban legends repeated annoys me?

Yet there has been debate on recent threads about there being no 'gay' gene? I make no claim to a scientific study or sample - I merely reported first-hand observations, not 'legends'.


Besides, you are robbing people of their agency by making them slaves to their hormones, and you are perpetuating the myth that sexuality can easily be modified. You do realize that altering hormone levels was once a theory (now discredited) on how to "fix" gay people, right?

Again, I'm robbing nobody and perpetuating no myths - simply reporting observations.



And my sample size is larger than yours. :tongueout]

You are still taking your testosterone-blockers, right? :heehee:

xx

[Valeria]

One I was thinking of transitioned at 19, was on hormones by 20 - now, at 23, she's suddenly discovered to her shock (after being a very loud and proud millitant lesbian for the last few years) she fancies a boy..
It's called being a "lesbian until graduation", and it's common as dirt among cis females. Given the three year time lapse, and the desire some young people have to be queer, it's far more easily explained using psychosocial factors than a 3-year delayed shift in sexual orientation caused by a drug that has been shown in research studies to not cause alterations in sexual orientation.


Yet there has been debate on recent threads about there being no 'gay' gene? I make no claim to a scientific study or sample - I merely reported first-hand observations, not 'legends'.
I don't know what has been said on recent threads about gay genes, I don't read every thread here. I also didn't say that you had started the meme. You asked why I wished to dispute the oft reported claims, and I told you.


You are still taking your testosterone-blockers, right? :heehee:
Umm, no. Not even close. What a bizarre question. Taking testosterone blockers post-op is not normal (and for most trans females it would be absurd). We've lost our primary source of testosterone, if you haven't heard, so unless we have very low estrogen levels *and* we are 60+ years old (or have a tumor) resulting in an overactive adrenal gland, we are going to have abnormally low testosterone levels.

Didn't any of the hundreds of TS women you know happen to mention that?

In my case, since my testosterone levels are below the lower limits of the typical range for a woman, I've used testosterone gel at times to push my testosterone levels back up towards normal for a female (as I've posted here before). I can honestly say that I know more post-op trans females taking testosterone than taking testosterone blockers. I've heard pre-ops questioning whether they might need T-blockers post-op ("just to be safe"), but medical authorities usually set them straight.

[Valeria]

But generally speaking....
Scottie, I was far more concerned with the other statement, which said that feminine women are naturally attracted to men.

Though "generally" speaking, more than half of all trans female transitioners end up lesbian or bi (AFAICT), so this general trend doesn't seem to hold for us. (I'm also not convinced it's as applicable for women in general as most people think, absent social pressures to reinforce heteronormativity.)

[michelle2b]

To add some evidence to Violet's point -
I am a lesbian transgirl. Hormones did not change that. My last girlfriend was very feminine and absolutely beautiful! She is a lesbian too. We split only because she moved back to her country because she got laid off and could not find a new job here before her visa expired. I know what it feels like to be attracted to women. I am not talking about what I feel down there; I am talking about how I feel inside my head and in my heart. I do not feel the same way towards men.

I get asked out often by guys. I tell them "I am flattered that you would like to spend time getting to know me, but you should know that I am strictly lesbian." Most of them leave me alone, and I leave the rest alone.

I do agree that MtF people realize the need to have a guy in their life. This may be because we become physically less strong to defend ourself, and more people will attack us because they know they can get away with it. Well, I am short and thin, and cute. I get approached very often by strange men in public and I am always very careful. I can defend myself from an average guy (I learned martial arts), but I cannot defend myself from anyone much stronger. The last thing I want any guy to realize is that I have something else down there - they might kill me if they feel cheated or embarrassed. I have always looked like a girl (except for dark facial hair and hair roots for which I used makeup to cover), and now even more so. Last evening, I was out late at a party and my car was parked 12 blocks away. I needed help from other girls or from any guy I already knew to get me to my car. Yes, so I agree that as a girl you need a guy sometimes. However, that does not imply sexual attraction. I am still lesbian although a guy helped me get to my car. I would like to do something nice for the guy who helped me, but that would be breakfast/lunch/coffee/dinner that I make or buy for him, not sex.

I had two boy friends (one a genetic male and another a transguy) because they asked me out and because they were the only two out of hundreds of guys who asked me out that I actually enjoy hanging out with. The genetic guy works in my company and I like him because we have an intellectual connection. We share the same birthday, the same interests and hobbies, the same aspirations, the same culture, etc. The trans guy whom I knew for months through our common friends asked me out because he was attracted to me the first time he saw me, and he really wanted to be with me after he heard me talk and saw my smile. It took him a long time to build up the courage to ask me out because he thought I looked too good and would not agree to spend time with him. I like him because he is selfless and does a lot of positive things for other people and he puts others before himself.

However, I have no sexual interest in either of them. We have had no sexual contact. They knew from day 1 that I am lesbian. I have spent hours with them, talking about everything from politics to business to current events to history ... and playing games, celebrating birthdays, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, etc, watching movies, going out to dinner as a couple, etc. They love hanging out with me, but we do nothing sexual. Even having these guys who took care of me and treated me like a woman when I was on hormones did not change my sexual orientation. They are my best friends, but not my romantic interest.

I would love to be in love with either of these men. They would be perfect partners for me! I would be the luckiest girl in the world to spend the rest of my life with either one of these two guys. And I wish I felt the sexual attraction towards them, but I do not. And I wish hormones could change this for me!

I think that everyone has a fixed sexual orientation, and for most people it is bisexual. If you want evidence of this, look at the cousins of the human species, the bonobos. If you read about bonobos, you will realize that they are mostly bisexual and they totally enjoy their lives without prejudice and without violence. This is unlike the chimpanzees, our other cousins. Among chimps, the male is much larger than the female, dominates and brutalizes females, kills and eats baby chimps from other males, etc. Chimp society is extremely violent. The reason there is this difference is because of how the 2 species evolved. Bonobos are the primates that lived in areas with a lot of food. They did not need to fight. Instead they shared food and lived happily. Chimps are the primates that shared forests with much larger gorillas. When food became scarce, the fights escalated and only the strongest survived. Humans, on the other hand, got down from the trees, walked into the grasslands, hunted, and wondered what was beyond the horizon. That is what made us different. Prejudice began only more recently, in the last few thousand years when we began to get brainwashed with dogmas and ideas about absolutes. Being openly bisexual or homosexual is actually an indication of progress in society and having sufficient resources.

Not to go off on a tangent, but I think it is the prejudice against homosexuality and the cultural norms we observe around us that makes us suppress our inherent bisexuality. Most people in the world today are conformists, just following all the rules and not stepping beyond the boundaries of society. We never stop to question so many of the absurdities in the world around us. About 5% of the people are purely homosexual. The majority are bisexual. Only a few are strictly heterosexual inside their heads.

When some people notice a change in sexual orientation after hormones, it is not because of the hormones, it is because of themselves. They begin to accept that their sexual orientation should now be different. In a world where placebo tests are used even to judge if a medicine is effective, the mind is a very powerful organ. Placebos can cure most common diseases. If you believe in something to a sufficient degree, you will think it is real. What is even more scary is that your conscious brain is only a small fraction of your total brain function. So you do not even know what your brain already knows.

My point is that change in sexual orientation after taking hormones is purely psychological, not hormonal, and it happens due to greater acceptance of the side of you that you had suppressed until before the hormones.

[melissaK]

Hmm. You know, the fact each of us are even at this site sort of proves the variability of human genes. We don't fit the male or female binary stereotype, therefore the binary sterotype must not be correct. Must be at least four combinations - m, f, mtf, ftm.

And some have pointed out gay men and lesbian women. More examples of why the binary sterotype doesn't work. More variations. Need at least 8 combinations. m, f, mtf, ftm, gm, gf, gmtf, gtm.

And then we have accounts of MTF and FTM remaining true to their anatomical gender both before and after transition, and some not. Still more variations. And some people are bi- before and after. More variations.

The lesson here is variations abound. The fact a majority of humans behave a certain way does not prove a rule that applies to all.

So violet's Q is reduced to: "is sexual preference, (m, f, bi), so set at birth that it will survive a hormone change?" And I ask why can't the answer be: "maybe?"

Just because "most" follow a majority pattern proves nothing. Why can't there be a set of genes that makes the individuals sexual partner preference dependent upon the hormones in the body? And why can't there be a set of genes that makes the individuals sexual preference the same, regardless of hormones in the body?

Why can't the rule be: There are so many human genetic variations that we can't predict the outcome of admisintration of cross gender hormones on the individual's sexual preference?

I'm just saying . . .
hugs,
'lissa

[Raquel June]

Hmm. You know, the fact each of us are even at this site sort of proves the variability of human genes. We don't fit the male or female binary stereotype, therefore the binary sterotype must not be correct. Must be at least four combinations - m, f, mtf, ftm.

But look, you're still defining all these things as binary yourself. Male, female, gay, straight, TS, non-TS. Certainly most of us can agree that M/F and sexual preference are not binary "one or the other" traits.

I also have a problem with the gross overuse of the term "genetics." Nobody has proven that homosexuality or any of that other stuff is a result of your DNA. I personally think the whole idea is pretty silly. What if there was a "gay gene"? How'd you like to be the straight guy who failed that test? "I'm sorry, sir, but the test doesn't lie. You're going to have to start having sex with men. And there's more bad news. You also tested positive for the 'bottom' gene." Even if such genetic predispositions do exist, social factors, how you relate to certain people, HRT, and I'm sure other things can influence you -- possibly more than your genetics. And then of course there is the fact that homosexual and transgendered genetics would be fairly strongly selected against. I'm sure the TG community has a lot less sex than most of the non-TG community because of not being in a particularly comfortable situation sexually and having more trouble dating in general.

[Anna the Dub]

I've never really been certain about my sexuality. I've been attracted to women all of my life; I've been married to my wife for 23 years. I have always considered myself female and now label myself a pre-op mtf ts. I've been on HRT for 10 months ( with a 10 week break in the middle). I have never been attracted to men and my attraction to women is based more on a personality attraction than a physical attraction. A great looking nude woman does not turn me on, nor does a great looking man. For me attractions only begin after I get to know someone, but even after getting to know a few men, I'm not attracted to them.

As for intimacy, I enjoy being intimate with my wife, but I didn't enjoy the male side of intercourse, for me it's work. I usually resort to fantasizing about being a woman and having sex as a woman. In these fantasies, my partner is anonymous - no face and I concentrate on what I believe it feels like to be taken and have someone inside me. I have always felt this way.

So, what does this make me? I haven't the slightest clue. Bisexual or at least bicurious. I can imagine myself having sex as a woman with both women and men. But I am repulsed about imagining sex as a male with a man. Someone stated that sexual orientation is fluid and I agree with that. I have no idea what to label myself, but I'd gues Bisexual is closest.

Jenna


Jenna, if you leave out the part about being married, you are almost quoting my life story. I, too, could only ever have intercourse by pretending I was a woman. I knew I wasn't attracted to men, but I also knew that I wasn't all that physically attracted to women either. I do know that I have always preferred almost exclusively the company of women. I don't think this is a sexual attraction, more of an emotional need that frankly has just gotten stronger. I have no male friends at all, and only encounter males as work colleagues, which to be honest suits me.

[Beth-Lock]

It is amazing how the old ideas about hormones determining sexual preference still stalk otherwise intelligent people. Obviously it is more complicated than that.

[Scotty]

Scottie, I was far more concerned with the other statement, which said that feminine women are naturally attracted to men.

Though "generally" speaking, more than half of all trans female transitioners end up lesbian or bi (AFAICT), so this general trend doesn't seem to hold for us. (I'm also not convinced it's as applicable for women in general as most people think, absent social pressures to reinforce heteronormativity.)

First - no disrespect is intended but I'm going to back up my point :)

Let me go back to my original post, I did not mention "Femine" women, or women in GENERAL, I said GENERALLY most women, not women in general.

"Women in general" applies to ALL women, "Generally Women are" applies to "most of the time".

I would be curiouis what the statistics are of lesbian women to st raight women, if I had to guess (Mind you this is strictly a guess!!!) - I'd say it's either 15-35% or so lesbian......which would make the heterosexual group 65-85%, GENERALLY larger :)

THAT IS ONLY A GUESS!! :)

So there is no disrespect intended, I know quite a few lesbian and/or gay people and I know they get used to being attacked and go on the offense - this is purely an intellectual conversation, not an attack! :)

My original post:

Hormones changed his body to a her body, and being free she went the way her MIND hazs told her "all of her life" that she was a woman.

Women are generaly naturally attracted to men.

End of story.

[Nicki B]

[And my sample size is larger than yours. :tongueout]


You are still taking your testosterone-blockers, right? :heehee: xx


Umm, no. Not even close. What a bizarre question. Taking testosterone blockers post-op is not normal (and for most trans females it would be absurd). We've lost our primary source of testosterone, if you haven't heard, so unless we have very low estrogen levels *and* we are 60+ years old (or have a tumor) resulting in an overactive adrenal gland, we are going to have abnormally low testosterone levels.

Didn't any of the hundreds of TS women you know happen to mention that?

Valeria, please be aware I was teasing you? :doh:

It's not normally women who say 'mine's bigger 'n yours'. ;)



My point is that change in sexual orientation after taking hormones is purely psychological, not hormonal, and it happens due to greater acceptance of the side of you that you had suppressed until before the hormones.

Michelle, your personal experience is obviously valid for you - but how can you assume everyone else has to be the same? :strugglin

[melissaK]

Even if such genetic predispositions do exist, social factors, how you relate to certain people, HRT, and I'm sure other things can influence you -- possibly more than your genetics. And then of course there is the fact that homosexual and transgendered genetics would be fairly strongly selected against. I'm sure the TG community has a lot less sex than most of the non-TG community because of not being in a particularly comfortable situation sexually and having more trouble dating in general.

What I was suggesting is that life experiences upon one set of genes will not have the same affect as the same life experiences upon another set; that genes impact how your brain responds to life experiences. In saying that, I don't mean to say human brain behavior isn't latered by life experiences, or that human brains don't have similarities that are worth studying or chronicling and creating psychology principles to describe. Just that the underlying genetic variations are currently indecipherable to us, as is the impact of life experinces upon those variations.

As for the hypothetical of a gay gene in a straight man - then the researchers didn't find "the" gay gene, or failed to find the other genes that result in inhibiting "the" gay genes expression, or which allow the individuals life experiences to override "the" gene. Ockhams razor principle doesn't mean a situation is explainable by only one factor - just that the simplest of competing explanations is probably correct. In genetics the finding of "one" control gene is proving to be an exception, and the operation of many genes together to manifest a result seems the rule.

And in humans where research is showing our brain's activity and thinking is shaped by gentic prediosposition and then by life experiences to which it is exposed, or by environmental factors, the puzzle is extraordinarily complex. Rushing to exclude unexplainable variations from groups where there are other similarities should be avoided, just as rushing to include them because of a few similarities should be avoided, and rushing to deny the possibliity that a combination of expressions is possible should be avoided. And I think our community is rife with this propensity. In fact over in the WPATH list service a debate on nomenclature has been going on for several weeks.

As for the idea gays and trans don't reproduce as prolifically as certain other cultural groups, its probably true, but still plenty of us on these boards have managed to reproduce. And as genetic reproduction is prone to creating variations, it may be regular reproduction replenishes our population at a standard rate. My background doesn't go beyond elementary genetic statistics so I should probably shut up before I once again prove a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :-)

hugs,
'lissa

PS Violet should win some prize for starting a thread that generated the highest word count in responses in quite sometime.

[Valeria]

Valeria, please be aware I was teasing you? :doh:

It's not normally women who say 'mine's bigger 'n yours'. ;)
Fair enough. I was both teasing and being deliberately ironic with the line to which you were responding (which is why I used the silly tongue out smiley -- I've never even used that emoticon before, so you should feel honored :) ).

Also, I'm in the middle of finals week (which is particularly stressful for me, since I'm both administering and grading biology finals while taking nursing finals), so I'm pretty much on edge all the time right now. Sorry.

[Valeria]

First - no disrespect is intended but I'm going to back up my point :)
Scottie, I don't see how your latest post is very responsive to mine.

I never said that you used the word feminine. I also never said that you used the phrase "women in general", though you didn't use the phrase "generally most women" either, you said "women are generally naturally". I'm not sold that hair-splitting between any of these phrasings serves a point -- they all qualify the word women in a way that indicates "most but not necessarily all". Anyway, I really don't wish to debate semantics with you any further.

I have no idea how many women have innate bi tendencies, or how many of them are repressing them for various societal reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised if we could measure this to find it's more than half. But even if you are right, I personally wouldn't make the claim that "X generally naturally does Y" on the basis of a mere 65 to 35 majority -- that's still somewhat implying that 1/3 the population is doing something unnatural, IMO. Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that the number of lesbian cis females is nowhere near as high as 35% -- though it's a pretty good guess for trans females. It's bisexual females who I think are dramatically undercounted.


So there is no disrespect intended, I know quite a few lesbian and/or gay people and I know they get used to being attacked and go on the offense - this is purely an intellectual conversation, not an attack! :)
Yes, as a lesbian woman (and one who has been directly adversely affected by prohibitions on same-sex marriage passed because marriage is "naturally between a man and a woman"), I do tend to have a low threshold to the use of the word "naturally" in connection with sexual orientation. Especially since when I was younger, most gender clinics would not allow trans females to have access to hormones or surgery if you admitted to being sexually attracted to women, because women were "naturally" attracted to men (so if you liked women, you obviously weren't really a transsexual).

The notion that women are naturally attracted to men has done me a lot of tangible harm in my life, so such conversations are never truly just theoretical for me. It's not just theory when people apply such logic to justify discriminatory actions (with personal costs to gay people) in real life.

But I never assumed that you were being deliberately offensive -- just oblivious to the real world consequences of the theory you were echoing.

[Scotty]

Scottie, I don't see how your latest post is very responsive to mine.
-- just oblivious to the real world consequences of the theory you were echoing.

Oblivious - not - I see it from the OPPOSITE side as I am in a very right-wing city - but not oblivious....

I do not believe any one group of people should have any more rights than any one else either - if that helps...

The marriage thing - eh, I'm still brainwashed old fashioned but I just don't believe in marriage, period.

One should always see the other side though so your posts are very enlightening :)

[genderhack]

Wow, so there's a lot of politicking going on. This is my first post so i think i'm going to try and stay out of that as much as i can; but i just wanted to weigh in here because this is an issue i feel i have to explain so often.

So, personally, i've always identified as bi, and i still identify as bi (or, pansexual rather; i don't like how "bi" implies binary....) but i have noticed since starting hormones that my "sexual preference" *has* shifted towards the masculine direction in a few subtle ways.

While before, i always felt an almost involuntary urge to look at a suggestively dressed girl (say with a cute butt in a short skirt), i don't feel that same "can't look away" that i used to. Now i still find girls (and the same types of girls) *just* as attractive as i ever did, and i still *do* enjoy admiring a beautiful female body, and a *very* attractive girl still makes me want to look at them; but it is a little different.

As for men, i've always been aroused by male bodies; i have to say that i rarely ever find myself attracted to any particular men on a day-to-day basis. Furthermore, i didn't seem to have any particular "taste" in men, expecially concerning faces; as long as they were healthy, and well-kempt, and reasonable attractive. Now, however, i am acutely aware of faces and eyes of men that i encounter; and i seem to have development more of a individualized taste; i either *really* find a guy attractive, or i don't, there seems to be less grey. Oh, and smell; I find the way some men smell (clean! not totally sweaty and greasy) to be irresistable now; whereas before it simply smelled neither good nor bad for the most part.

Now, i admit that a good portion of this may just be due to the *overall* changes to my sexuality (more variable, larger "mental" component, etc). But i do feel like i generally have a good handle on my mental state, and how various chemistries affect it. Nor was i "repressed" or "in denial" before, if anything the only thing that kept me from transitioning was ignorance; so i do sort of resent remarks that my sexual preference shifted because i am repressed or somesuch.

Basically it just kind of irks me when people take hard-line stances one way or the other. "It has *no* effect at all!" *or* "You will be drooling for **** now..." are both incorrect.

[Jena11]

Well, I always appreciate everyones feeling and thoughts, I can say that when I was younger I thought that gender and feelings of wanting to be a girl would mean that I had to then like guys. I was always somewhat fearful of it but then I leared that orientation and gender are two different things and each person has it engrained in them what they are. However, after going through life they may find that they were not really knowing themselves and discovered that they were either gay or straight. It really hit me that I was truely a Lesbian because I with all the things I have to learn to act and be female, I really have been paying more attention to women and know how much I like them and want to be one and be with a woman. That is just who I am. It was funny a few weeks ago a GG friend of mine asked me and said did I realize that since I like girls that I would be a lesbian. I said yes and that it was ok with me. Jen

[Joann Smith]

I have been on hormones for bout 5 yrs ...and i have to...prior to that the thought of beding down with a guy kinds made me want to puke...but now that thought do not seem so bad...I do not think my sexual preferance has changed ..I belive i have a better understanding of it from the other side


Joann

[ria_ts]

When I was reading this thread, I noticed that after taking hormones people seemed to fall into two categories - some did not see a change in their sexual preference, and the rest were more attracted to the opposite "gender" (for example male-to-female people were more attracted to genetic men after taking hormones).

I am noticing the opposite. I was sexually attracted to men before hormones. I had two relationships with men before I was ever on HRT. I was attracted to women also. I have dated women, but could never have a relationship because I was always trying to hide that I had gender issues. Women did not trust me as a result. They knew I was hiding something. Now, after taking estrogen for almost a month, I have no interest in men at all. Mentally, I am disgusted by men. Everything they do or say to get my attention makes me more disgusted about them. I do not know what is happening to me! I still have interest in women.

Has anyone else felt this way?