I dont understand why they do it?

[shychristine]

I am new to this site and have been reading some of the old posts. I dont understand why some go shopping in male mode and go into the womens dept and ask if they could try some thing on and become upset when the SA either says no or they laugh and make fun of them. They even do this when dressed and dont pass so well.

I have spent 19 years in the military mostly overseas. If the military taught me anything is " Dont draw attention to yourself and make yourself a Target"
Being a Transgender I know there are a lot of people who dont understand or accept me. So I have learned to know my sizes and buy mostly online. But if I do go into a store to shop I shop my size and dont try on. I dont have a problem returning anything because if they ask whats wrong with it , I say my wife ( I'm not married ) doesnt like it.
If you do shop in male mode and there is a mens changing room why dont you just use it? why do you need to use the womans dressing rooms knowing what problems that will cause. Just remember-- DONT DRAW ATTENTION AND MAKE YOURSELF A TARGET if you do, then dont get upset with the SA response, you brought it upon yourself.
I am sorry if this offends anyone but this rule works for me, I am still in the closet for a reason, when I do shop in stores I always ask for a gift receipt and gift boxes making it look like it is a gift ( it really is a gift, for me lol ) I ont go out looking for trouble or to bring harssment on myself.

[Sara Jessica]

...I am still in the closet for a reason, when I do shop in stores I always ask for a gift receipt and gift boxes making it look like it is a gift ( it really is a gift, for me lol ) I ont go out looking for trouble or to bring harssment on myself.

So you use this method to buy your girl stuff, great for you. I'm sure the same thing works for many others. However, we are all in different situations and for many of us, it works just fine to either go shopping in girl mode or even trying on stuff in guy mode.

Personally, I don't try on in guy mode because I do most of my shopping presenting as a woman. But for those who do, to each their own. About the only place I draw the line is for those who try on at the likes of Victoria's Secret in guy mode. I think that is a bit of an invasion of the privacy of the other customers. I feel it is more appropriate if we present as female, that we are perceived more as "one of the girls" much more so than trying on a bra in guy mode.
:2c:

[PortiaHoney]

SJ. I think Christine was more about the complaining about the response than the actual act. OK, she prefers to shop online, like you said, we all have our preferences.

Why do many of us get upset when SA's have the "normal" response to a guy wanting to try on womens clothing in the womans changerooms?

I also use the "girlfriend/wife" reasoning and usually get a "good on you" for being so thoughtful. Much easier than putting up with the usual response if I told them it's for me. Yes, there are understanding SA's out there. But there is a hundred that aren't for every one that is.

I don't present well in fem gear so this choice is for me. You wont hear me complaining that a SA wasn't understanding or caring. And I get what I want and a pat on the back to boot.

:love:Portia

[Mirani]

Above all, this site has taught me that there are many different viewpoints, situations, needs, wants and coping strategies.

I would not dispute what works for you - congratulations on finding what works for you. However, for me, relating fully to the world, unashamed of who I am, is what I want and need. Also, perhaps, the more "we" encounter the world as who we are (whatever we are wearing), the more we break down barriers of fear and misunderstanding.

Good luck, but please don't decry those with different values. Different is just that . . . . different - not wrong.

Sometimes, although it is nice to understand another's viewpoint, we have to say "I dont understand but Ut quod officina , officina"
(that which works, works).

[Karren H]

Well welcome to the forum.... and from my perspective... I don't ask to try something on... I try it on!! in drab or enffemme it's all the same... I tried on a skirt and a top at Kmart yesterday at noon and was wearing a dark blue male business suit!! So what....

and as far as standing out... I could care less what other people think of the way I dress but then again I'm not stupid enough to intentionally put myself in a situation I can't get out of either... so I choose my venues carefully.....

[yms]

Christine -

I agree with you in part - namely that if you are going to be out in public in any way, whether it is trying on womens clothing in guy mode or en femme, or going out en femme, or putting yourself out there in any way that involves some risk, then you have to be ready for whatever reaction you get from people. If you get laughed at, then that's that. You learn from it and move on.

But I really don't see why what other people do bothers you. If someone wants to go to a store in guy mode and ask to try on womens clothing in the womens dressing room, who cares? No one is saying you have to do the same thing. Personally, I would not do that either. I'd get dolled up and go shopping and I'd damn sure going to use the womens changing room.

But on another note, while I can understand the fear of being out as a TG, I also believe that as long as the vast majority of TGs go through their lives pretending to the rest of the world they are not what they are, the world is going to be very slow to accept TGs. That's why I think the obsession some have with "passing" is misguided. People out there have to start getting used to the idea of dealing with TGs on a daily basis.

If a crossdresser walks into a bar and no one hears her heels clicking, has she really crossdressed? Not very good, but you get the idea.

Yvonne

[Sara Jessica]

SJ. I think Christine was more about the complaining about the response than the actual act.

I disagree. It seems she was complaining about why anyone would put themselves in a position to be on the receiving end of any negativity whatsoever. I say we do whatever works for us.


Why do many of us get upset when SA's have the "normal" response to a guy wanting to try on womens clothing in the womans changerooms?

While I said that I don't do this, you'll hear many state (rightly so) that why should it matter. But those who do so need to be confident in such a way to minimize the creepy factor which could be perceived by the SA's.


I also use the "girlfriend/wife" reasoning and usually get a "good on you" for being so thoughtful. Much easier than putting up with the usual response if I told them it's for me. Yes, there are understanding SA's out there. But there is a hundred that aren't for every one that is.

Oh I sooooo disagree with this one. Even in guy mode (although I'm not looking to try on), it's so much easier to be honest than to play the "it's a gift" game. You'd be surprised how a little honesty opens up your eyes to a vast majority of SA's who would be more than happy to give you great customer service (and then take your money of course).

[Rochelle Exploration]

Until just yesterday I had done all my shopping online, While I'm not ready to go out dressed yet I was worried about drawing attention to myself. Like shychristine said I had my "cover" story ready...lol

And Sara Jessica I agree with your points about presenting ourselves but I'm just not quite there yet, but am working on it and yesterday really helped.

I decided I needed to reward myself for my recent progress and I did. After a few moments of realizing no one was staring at a man going through the aisles I was able to bring myself to checking sizes and holding things out. A big step for me at this point. Besides I realized under my drab clothes I was all girly so that made me feel at home and I wound up buying more than I planned...lol

[sandyb40c]

I've never had any problem trying on female clothes in guy mode. Quite a few of the stores I shop in have one set of change rooms, so there's no real issue where I try things on. Thrift stores never care what you try on, either.

The only 'problem' I had was in WalMart where I went to try on a skirt and top in the men's change room. The lady kindly directed me to the women's change room, even though it was obvious I am a guy. She said they would have no problem there with me trying it on. If it didn't fit they'd be able to put it back easier where it belongs.

Everybody has to find their own comfort zone and there's not just one way of going shopping. I have found what works for me, but it might not be for everyone.

[Kathleen Ann Trees]

I think this is a GREAT post! It can truly reflect how there are many different opinions and issues regarding our situation. Thanks for not being afraid to put something out there that is real.

I've done both. Bought enfemme and in drab, asking to try things on. And I've gotten most of the reactions.

I agree that you should be able to do what you feel is right. And be careful about doing it. But be prepared for the possible reactions.

Best to all

Kathleen

[tracie674]

I'm with Karren. I don't present as female. Couldn't "pass" if I wanted to. I do underdress and wear some makeup when I shop. When I want to try something on I either ask the SA or just take the items to the male dressing room. I try not to attract attention to my self but I don't hide myself either. Most SA's will let me try on whatever I want. Sometimes in the womens dressing room and sometimes in the male dressing room. Just don't make a big deal of it and you will be fine. If they say no you can always buy it and try it on at home and bring it back if it dosen't fit.

[shychristine]

I understand that there are many who do not care what people think or say, and I am not saying that when I shop in a store The SA doesnt give me that smirk. I have had a couple of times when the SA would assume. Every time I shop in stores I know I am making myself a target. Knowing I am putting my self in someones cross hairs and I am willing to take what ever she says or does. But I was taking about people who get upset when the SA says something. Even if you go in dressed and you know you are read easy they get upset, what I am saying is if you know you are putting yourself in this postion be ready to take what is coming to you.
I am getting the nerve to go to a wig store to be fitted and buy a good wig. I know what I am putting myself up for. If I am going to do this I must be ready for what is coming and I cannot let my self get upset because I am setting my self up for any comments. You cant execpt everyone to accept you. Its like standing up to a bully, if you stand your ground and show what ever they say doesnt brother you then it is not fun for them and they might stop if they see it doenst brother you

[avril findlay]

I won't buy without trying either. There is absolutely no standardisation of sizes between manufacturers. There's no way I would think of buying a skirt without trying it first. I've had too many dissapointments in the past.

[PortiaHoney]

Even in guy mode (although I'm not looking to try on), it's so much easier to be honest than to play the "it's a gift" game. You'd be surprised how a little honesty opens up your eyes to a vast majority of SA's who would be more than happy to give you great customer service (and then take your money of course).


OK. I'm game. I have been caught out with the "gift" game a couple of times anyway. Next time I'm out shopping (wont be far away, need a new skirt and top, shoes), I will be honest and I hope I will be back here with a wonderful story telling all about how great the experience was. Honestly, I really do hope I get a positive response as I sure as heck need some reassurance right now.

I am currently trying to gather up the courage to get my hair done, been growing it and it's ready for styling and colouring. Guess I need to figure where I am on that gender sliding scale again.

:love:Portia

[Sara Jessica]

Even if you go in dressed and you know you are read easy they get upset...

Who says they will get upset?

You have to pick your spots, especially when starting out, and use all of your intuition in order to read the comfort level of the SA. If the response is lukewarm or negative, do both of yourselves a favor and bail on the situation. There's plenty of other places to shop where you will be absolutely embraced as a customer.

I was out a couple weeks ago in girl mode with a tg friend of mine and we happened into a store, I think J.Jill, where we could feel just a little chill in the air from the two SA's who were there. Not that we saw anything we liked in the store, we left and talked about how we both perceived the same thing from the SA's. No big deal, we just bopped along to the next destination.

A vast majority of the encounters I experience are postitive and I've written elsewhere that I am now of the mindset that I EXPECT to be treated well. I dare anyone to suggest why this isn't reasonable.

[Toni_Lynn]

Dont draw attention to yourself and make yourself a Target


Hi Christine

Of everything you wrote, I agree with this the most. Too many times a CDer will go out to wherever -- the local grocery store for example -- get read/ harassed/ whatevered, and then moan and whine about about. All the while they forget that when they went out they where wearing either clothes inappropriate for their age - you're 60 and dressed like an 18 year old -- or wore high heels and miniskirt when the temperature was below freezing to the store to buy a pound of baloney.

Of everything I learned in all my years, it is to blend in. People are less observant that you think, unless you give them something to observe!

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Sara Jessica]

OK. I'm game. I have been caught out with the "gift" game a couple of times anyway. Next time I'm out shopping (wont be far away, need a new skirt and top, shoes), I will be honest and I hope I will be back here with a wonderful story telling all about how great the experience was. Honestly, I really do hope I get a positive response as I sure as heck need some reassurance right now.

Too much fun, good luck!!!

I first picked up on the honesty angle from my wife of all people. Years ago she told me about how she saw one of those talk shows which had a tg panel and one of the girls talked about just being honest with the SA's. So I tried it and pretty much haven't looked back. Again, read the SA the best you can before you come out and say "it's for me". If you run into negativitiy, simply go elsewhere.

Now there is one place I draw the line. I don't run around at my "home malls" (the places I'm likely to go frequently with my family) saying stuff is for me. If I happen to buy anything that local, I just do so quietly, yet confidently. But then again, I live in an area where there has to be at least 25 malls within a short drive.

[Julogden]

Hi Christine,

I'm glad that you've worked out a system that works for you, but it's foolish, at best, to get annoyed at others simply for not sharing your values and opinions about how to live their lives.:2c:

Carol

[Dave3]

I'll bite on this thread.

I too have served in the military. I 'used' to be adept at hiding / supressing any hint I wasn't 100% military macho male.

I'm partly 'guilty as charged' - "whining" about a response to my own actions (vocal outburst during my first ever public outing). Bit like crying about being sunburned I guess - we do have a choice. We don't have to burn ourselves. We don't have to invite "reactions" by being 'in your face'. However.........

I'm with avril findlay. And with the cost of petrol (travelling to exchange / return) - why pretend it's a gift for a wife you don't have? This is really going to boil down to personal choice around the emotional comfort zone of an individual. (I *KNOW* - individual situations do vary). Personally, for me, I'm not going to spend $$$$ on something that dosen't fit, because I was too scared to try it on in the shop. Ok, a year ago I would not have said this. My attitudes have changed, and so have my experiences!

I understand the closet, and I think I can understand many of the reasons for hiding there. But maybe we really are HIDING - out of fear? And many of our fears are often irrational.

I *still* have a "comfort zone" whilst shopping in a clothing store which clearly caters (exclusively!) for women. I have, on occasion, made a conscious personal decision (based largely on my own emotional sentiment at the time) *NOT* to 'pursue' a potential purchase as a store was too crowded for my own comfort. Pick another day / time.....

Smaller boutique stores or those catering "exclusively" for women don't generally have both / segregated male and female changing / dressing rooms. I have a vague recollection of a member posting something along the lines of store staff threatening to call police because they were trying something on (????). It is not due to any specific post, but the underlying 'reason' (potential for horrified reactions) that I will ask a sales assistant "where can I try this on?". There might be some slightly 'sensitive' customer already in the changerooms - you just didn't notice yet. (Society will often treat changing rooms a bit like toilets - and I wouldn't want to be found sneaking in to a womans toilet)...., Hence I ASK . This places my actions under the control (by virtue of their awareness) of the sales reps, and I think that makes THEM feel completely at ease. Doing so, I have NEVER had a problem (always shown straight through to the dressing rooms). No comments or reactions - indeed nothing short of professional service.

If an individual goes out feeling like they have a target painted on their forehead, they'll invite a bit of sniper fire. When you know (and that can be a long time coming) that you BELONG wherever (whatever / however) you are or are doing, the absolute certainty which you portray provides little scope for a reactionary smirk.

Interestingly, and although laws vary from country to country / state to state, most Equal Opportunity legislation(s) do actually include clauses about the provision of goods and services (e.g. a male, who presents as female, cannot be refused rental accommodation by a landlord - who discriminates on that basis (and for no other reason). The way I see it, a shop that refuses to sell me a skirt (or dress or whatever), or witholds a fitting service, is technically in breach of E.O. legislations. (No, you can't use this dressing room, black people aren't allowed to use white dressing rooms. Sheesh, that STOPPED a long time ago (didn't it?). By the way, I wonder what made it stop?). No, I'm not going to make a scene, and refuse to give up my seat on the bus just because I'm black (you know what I mean!!), but I don't have to HIDE myself either.

Maybe there are places / times where 'black people' don't walk down a particular street / area. Or vice versa. Or whatever (white black grey gay gooofy etc).... You can't legislate what peoples opinions or attitudes will be. Only change (slowly, over time) what acceptable behaviour is.

And a male has the right to purchase clothes. Even if it is a silk dress. From a boutique store. After checking it fits. Without unlawful discriminatory or harrassing behaviour from a vendor.

I'll walk away from a shop if I have some irrational, emotional discomfort. If not, then I'll try a skirt (or dress) on if I'd like to. I'll quietly, politely, yet firmly ask where (not if!!!) I can try this on - and I'll be treated with nothing less than the respect and dignity afforded any other paying customer. But I did *ask*, and I gave the sales reps the opportunity to say "umm".... (no / come back later / whatever), just in case there really was a little old lady in her underwear in the changerooms, who might cause a scene..... Let me stress again - I walk into a shop - where I am a customer, and I know I am not doing anything wrong..

If we're not doing anything wrong, we shouldn't have to worry about being targets should we?

[tracie674]

right on dave

[JaymeCD]

The more and more I go shopping, I found that woman specialty stores are more accepting to the transgendered community. I believe while in training at chain stores, they make aware that we do exist and that we have to be treated just like any female customer. But just like some people have mentioned, we have to stay within our boundaries. We have to respect that if a store is busy full of woman, we should ask if there is a better time to come back. I have been told by a sales associate at one specific store that if I come back, I could ask to use the fitting room out back.

At first I was scared admit that it was for myself, let alone ask to try it on. After a while, it just wears off and you realize no one is paying attention and no one cares.

[Joanne f]

Well fist of all most people will respond to honesty, if you are straight with them they will be straight with you , if you do not pass that well the first thing the will wounder is why you want to go in the woman`s changing rooms,
i have tried quite a few things on in drab and found the people quite helpful .
I have had changing rooms unlocked for me and ques held back for me ( a bit embarrassing when you come out) why because i am upfront with it .
I would not pass so i ask can i try this on please they can noly say yes or no .


joanne

[StaceyJane]

I working on being more upfront in stores. I have bought a dress while in guy mode. the SA didn't ask and I didn't tell. Next I hope to try on a dress. I went to Kohls a few days ago but didn't see anything I wanted to try on.

[Rachel Morley]

I rarely buy anything without trying it on. If I'm shopping en femme I always use the women's fitting room. If I'm in boy mode I take the skirt/top or whatever it is, to the guys fitting room.

However, one time, earlier this year (and I swear this is the absolute truth) I was shopping with my wife for summer dresses in JC Penney. I was in (girly) boy mode. We both found a dress each and we both went to the nearest fitting room which was the womens'. There was a waiting line. I was feeling pretty nervous because there I was, standing in the middle of the line with my wife, I was dressed pretty girly looking but in boy mode, with a dress over my arm, waiting to try it on. The other GGs in line mostly just ignored me but some were looking and smiling :)

I think the best option is to use the fitting room that is appropriate to the gender you are presenting as. At the checkout I never play games about who it's for. I don't volunteer any information but if they ask I tell them the truth.

[Cassia-Marie]

Christine -
If a crossdresser walks into a bar and no one hears her heels clicking, has she really crossdressed?


That's priceless!!! I'll have to remember that one!

Hugs,
Cassia-Marie

[Denise01]

Because of the variation in Ladies sizes, and the manufacturers i will not buy anything without trying it on.

I also have had no problems of trying anything on

99% of the time, i shop fully as Denise, The few times that i have been out drab, i have also had the sales associates ask me if i would like to try something on.

Denise

:):):):)

[shychristine]

Thanks for your posts. But I get the feeling that my point was missed. I am not saying that you shouldnt try on in stores but reading some old posts here and other fourms.. if it upsets you when you come across a rude SA or not allow to use the womans dressing rooms... then try it on at home. I know no one wants to spent money on something that doesnt fit... then return it. I can go on and on to make my point, but I am not going to. Sorry this post seem to upset people thats not what I wanted to do.

[Sarah...]

S'alright! I got the point!

Frankly, I'm done with denying who I am. I'm not really bothered which changing room I use. Just as long as I can try something on if I need to. If necessary (and appropriate) I just try it on in the shop.

Sarah...

[Celeste]

I understood your post and I agree with you .There are many women who would be appalled at prospect of men in the dressing room or even trying on something they were considering purchasing,given that, I've elected to online shop or return.We need to be considerate of others ,its not always about "does it work for me".

[Sarah...]

I understood your post and I agree with you .There are many women who would be appalled at prospect of men in the dressing room or even trying on something they were considering purchasing,given that, I've elected to online shop or return.We need to be considerate of others ,its not always about "does it work for me".

Fair point. We could also just do what quite a few shops have already done and get rid of gender-binary changing rooms altogether and just have changing rooms.

Just another tuppence-worth!

Sarah...

[TGMarla]

Out of all of this that's been posted here, I keep coming back to Yvonne's post.

I concur with everything she said there. Now go back and review.

[tamarav]

I disagree with everybody except Karren. I hired a personal shoper that was exactly my size to do all my shopping for me. When I gain weight she has to gain weight, when I use a larger breast forms, well, you get the idea.

You gotta do what ya gotta do, each of us. I got the nature of the post.

I have previously been criticized for my sarcastic nature, it does tend to show now and then, no disrespect to anyone, any where, anytime. My apologies to all...

[PortiaHoney]

Tamara, are you your own personal shopper but just use your shizophrenic personality to be someone else???????

Or are you just beside yourself on this subject?????

:love:Portia

[Nicki B]

Thanks for your posts. But I get the feeling that my point was missed. I am not saying that you shouldnt try on in stores but reading some old posts here and other fourms.. if it upsets you when you come across a rude SA or not allow to use the womans dressing rooms... then try it on at home. I know no one wants to spent money on something that doesnt fit... then return it. I can go on and on to make my point, but I am not going to. Sorry this post seem to upset people thats not what I wanted to do.


I too understand where you're coming from (I too spent 17yrs not putting myself in the line of fire unnecessarily ;))

But I've never, ever come across the reactions you describe? I don't try things on when in male mode, 'cos I'm a different shape when dressed - but when I shop in drab, or dressed, I've never felt I needed to offer an explanation of who I was buying for?

But I guess I'm not who you're aiming the thread at...

[Dave3]

Thanks for your posts. But I get the feeling that my point was missed. I am not saying that you shouldnt try on in stores but reading some old posts here and other fourms.. if it upsets you when you come across a rude SA or not allow to use the womans dressing rooms... then try it on at home. I know no one wants to spent money on something that doesnt fit... then return it. I can go on and on to make my point, but I am not going to. Sorry this post seem to upset people thats not what I wanted to do.

Your point wasn't missed, it just became "caught up" in a detour into a shopping thread. I don't think you've upset anybody, you probably just had some strong replies :)

I think the point you are making is don't paint your face green, and then complain that people react to you. Valid point - if you don't like the reactions, stop causing them!!

Unfortunately, this topic crosses into 'discriminatory areas' - i.e. there really shouldn't be any "reaction" from sales staff for us to complain about - should we ask to try something on in a shop. If I paint my face green, I might get stared at or receive the odd comment or two. If I ask to try on a skirt in a store, I should be shown to facilities to do so - not 'victimised' in any way, shape or form.

I wonder how many times somebody like Rosa Parks was told to walk rather than use the bus, just in case she didn't like the "reaction" from others. There shouldn't be a reaction - that's the whole point. Sorry to make this sound like a civil rights campaign, but you do kind of touch on that area. If NOBODY ever ventured past the "I won't do this, because somebody might comment", what 'year' would we be living in?

I understand what you are saying, but - while it is linking in to "equal opportunity shopping" I'll add my 2 cents. And heck - if you could shop in a store, and try on whatever you wished - without any reaction at all (you are their customer), would you still feel the need (next time) to take something 'unknown' and possibly return this "gift for your wife"?

[mackemlass]

Marks And Spencer near my workplace have divided up into two seperate stores. They've got womenswear,kidswear and the food hall in one and have moved menswear and home and furnishings into a second store. So when I see something I might want to buy I've got two choices,either ask to try it on there,meaning I HAVE to use the womens changing room (and because it's the branch near where I work I'll be in guy mode),or wait till I'm on the way home and stop in my local branch,which may not have the item I want in stock at that time. A few weeks back I asked to try an item on and the SA gave me a funny look and said "No,sorry you can't come in here". So I found a supervisor and said that I was a crossdresser and wanted to try something on and had been refused access to the changing room. She apologised and let me into one of the changing rooms. Went in last week during my lunchbreak when they were having the 20% off day and the place was obviously busy,found a few things,different SA but was allowed into the changing room without any problem.

[Sara Jessica]

But I've never, ever come across the reactions you describe? I don't try things on when in male mode, 'cos I'm a different shape when dressed - but when I shop in drab, or dressed, I've never felt I needed to offer an explanation of who I was buying for?

But I guess I'm not who you're aiming the thread at...

Perfect way to describe the reason I don't try things on in guy mode, because the shape is way off!!!


Thanks for your posts. But I get the feeling that my point was missed. I am not saying that you shouldnt try on in stores but reading some old posts here and other fourms.. if it upsets you when you come across a rude SA or not allow to use the womans dressing rooms... then try it on at home. I know no one wants to spent money on something that doesnt fit... then return it. I can go on and on to make my point, but I am not going to. Sorry this post seem to upset people thats not what I wanted to do.

I don't think the point was missed Christine, nor do I think you upset anyone. But you should also look at your thread title..."I don't understand why they do it". Perhaps adding "...and get upset when..." would have kept it more on track. Either way, it doesn't seem this thing went off on too far of a tangent. Many of us believe we all have a right to use the fitting room, even if the store sells only women's clothes, no matter how we present.

Yet with such a right comes responsibility. If you are shopping in girl mode, confidence is imperative and you still must read the situation correctly. It's quite easy with a little practice. Go everywhere you wish but spend where you're welcome. If shopping in guy mode, be prepared to be refused here and there, or be asked to come back later. It may not be "right" but then you have to make a decision whether to complain or not. Another girl put it quite well about how she went to a manager and was given access. Gutsy, and good for her! But either way, be considerate of the customers as well. If you perceive that you are creeping them out in any way, perhaps you should shop the store when it's slower. Scare away the gg muggles and that'll really piss off the SA's.

[battybattybats]

One thing being the target of substantial bullying in High School, and spending well over a decade and a half as a Goth in a small rural city has taught me is this:

'Don't make yourself a target' = 'Give in to terrorists'.

Now I know that in combat keeping low and behind cover etc is useful, but our appearance is our weapons, our ammunition and our victory so it doesn't count as an apt analogy.

You see, if you stay invisible you change nothing or even allow things to backslide because you are not maintaining the advances of past generations.

The aim of terrorism is to cause people to give in. Antitransgender discrimination and violence exists to make us invisible. But the more we are invisible the less accepted we are.

If on the other hand your visible people get used to your difference. The long-term acceptance is often worth any short-term risk.

Now I said often and thats important. It's not always the case and I wouldn't advise everyone to be out. For some people there is greater risk which must be acknowledged.. meaning that those with less risk have a greater obligation. Personally I've only been out fully en femme once so far. I'm slowly acclimatising my community though.

I wasn't so slow as a Goth, but I was far less disabled then and being fit, fast on my feet and having a few years martial arts under my belt made it a less risky action.

But what is important is that it's been many long years since I got any flack at all for being a Goth. The slings and arrows of the occassional rude remark are long in the past now.

Why? Because us Goths went out in front of other people being extremely different. I have gone to the local pizza place in clothes that belong to a previous century!

And what does that mean now? It means that I can walk through the busiest town market day of the year (Sunday last) wearing feminine eyliner with long metallic purple-pianted fingernails and matching purple lipstick with comments, sure there were comments... all compliments! And i bought some fishnet-and-velvet leggings which I held up against me to gauge the fit and a belly-dancing/gypsy chains-and-bells anklet, which i tried on in broad daylight with hundreds of people milling round of every age, class and nationality.

And at a graduating student art exhibition on Friday an elderly woman gushed over my nails, complimented me on my makeup and told me at length how she adored my hair.

So I'm slowly progressively increasing my Goth androgyny so by the time the community realises I am wearing a skirt all the time they will already be used to it. So far so good but I'm still careful, especially because I'm disabled and reliant on public transport.

Goths did not meekly skulk in the shadows and beg for acceptance. We shopped in broad daylight in our make-up. We wore our black velvet our fishnets and our chains in McDonalds and KFC. We sat on benches in malls and discussed silent films of the 30's. We sat in the shade of trees beside fountains in the parks and recited 19th century poetry. We lined up at the cinema in our dramatic hairstyles, often to go see Disney films!

It worked, not everywhere, we're discriminated against in Russia and the Emo's are getting flack but compare it to what CDs face, compare it to the way it was just 20 years ago.

Goth emerged as a formal subculutre in the 80's. I first heard it mentioned in the media in 1989 iirc and back then it was all extremely negative stereotypes of suicidallly depressed heroin-using rebellious teen demon-worshippers. Now one of the most popular characters on NCIS is a cheerful Goth that goes substantially against the old stereotypes.

[Sara Jessica]

Now one of the most popular characters on NCIS is a cheerful Goth that goes substantially against the old stereotypes.

Awesome overall post!!! But this little bit reminds me of a recent song by The Divine Comedy called "The Happy Goth".

Well her clothes are blacker than the blackest cloth
And her face is whiter than the snows of Hoth
She wears Dr. Martens and a heavy cross
But on the inside she's a happy goth

[CLARRISA]

I'm going to be awfully smug here and say, so far so good. When shopping for femme things i mainly go as femme..about a month ago, i took the plunge to try something on in the shop..the SA just took my hangers and let me into the dressing room, other women were there..i couldn't believe it, no reaction, nothing. I think when i go femme i adopt the the complete persona, i convince myself i'm just an ordinary woman going about her business, and thats how i think i'm percieved..thank god..its about getting the attitude and mindset right...don't think, they know i'm a man, think "i know i'm man, but right now i'm a woman"

[battybattybats]

Awesome overall post!!! But this little bit reminds me of a recent song by The Divine Comedy called "The Happy Goth".

Well her clothes are blacker than the blackest cloth
And her face is whiter than the snows of Hoth
She wears Dr. Martens and a heavy cross
But on the inside she's a happy goth

I don't know it but being an openly happy goth and knowing a number of others the stereotype of the morose goth always annoyed me.

[Jennifer_Cross]

I would be too scred to buy in 'Girl' mode, though I wish I could

[Joanne f]

At the end of the day the only thing i can say to myself is WHY SHOULDN`T WE shop for what we like in what ever mode we like .



joanne

[Intertwined]

"Dont draw attention to yourself and make yourself a Target"
For me, thats part of the fun, I LOVE the attention, plus, I never dress 100% enfemme, I always dress up 50/50 masculine/feminine.

As for appropriate dressing room, thats anyones guess, my mom owned a dress shop that I worked in, my take is, use the dressing room of the gender of the clothing you are trying on, this way if the clothing does not fit, there is usually a rack just outside the dressing area to put wrong size items, this makes it easier for the SA to return things to the racks.

battybattybats has a very good point, "If on the other hand your visible people get used to your difference. The long-term acceptance is often worth any short-term risk." A good example is the TV show NCIS that has a full time character "Abby" that is Goth. Would you have seen that 20, or even 10 years ago, if there were not Goths highly visible in our society?

[crossdrezzer1]

I didnt see the part of if you was in a store like dress barn or debs or even fashion bug,,they dont have a mans section so just walking in draws attention to you and after the selection has been made then what? No male dressing rooms as its a all female shop,,,