One of the prices you pay for crossdressing [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

lisa_vin

12-08-2008, 07:16 PM

:sad:Hi everyone! I haven't been around here for several days. My wife stumbled across some of my Lisa clothing last week while trying to hide Christmas presents in the attic. She knew that I had my things stored up there in 3 or 4 very hard to reach places but she ventured into one of those, saw bags she had never seen and curiosity killed the cat once again. Now, she's seen some of my clothes before but this one bag had my breast forms and a couple of wigs in there. She'd only seen the clothing and this was more than she could stand......the straw that broke the camel's back! We had seen a great therapist last year over this and the clothing and my dressing need had been discussed openly with the therapist. The forms and wigs had been talked about as well but she didn't remember that and SEEING them was the final blow......the last and final realization that I can't extract Lisa from my persona no matter what and she definitely will never go away! I now know she only grudgingly tolerated that I dressed and underdressed and as long as it was not discussed or she didn't accidentally come across something I may have forgotten to put up or across a collection of items such as this particular one it was "out of sight, out of mind" for her. She never truly accepted that Lisa was a part of me and the therapist only provided a band aid over what was obviously a gaping wound that will never heal. She also would never discuss any of this with just me when we were alone.

There are other issues in this mix so it was not this one single thing that will end the relationship but I'm now contemplating a split-up and probable divorce somewhere in my future......after 30 years together! There's been a lot of unhappy, ugly water under the bridge since her first "discovery" many years ago and two other subsequent therapist sessions where I was ordered to "Get it fixed or else" and told this was my problem and she didn't have any problems and would not be talking with either of those therapists because I needed to be fixed, not her, and she would never accept any alternative. Looking back, I missed the sign way back then that she wanted absolutely no part of me physically or "mentally" dressed in her eyes or mind by her complete unwillingness to discuss it with me or the therapist and try to look for compromises or set up house rules. I realize she had rejected me for who I was then but for whatever reason either chose to refuse to believe it and push it out of her mind or not seek separation in "hopes" that it was a passing ugly "phase" or experimentation that would play itself out. That I never told her before we married and she "found out" later left her feeling cheated out of a better life and a relationship with a "real" man as she has put it to me several times.

The "cheated out of" part I fully accept responsibility for and have nothing but deep sorrow and shame if I've truly done that to her. I kept this part of me from her so I lied and betrayed her and fully accept the blame for that. Believe me, any future relationship attempt, if any, will include a full, up-front disclosure of my imperfections so there will be no misunderstandings of who I am and the person they will be getting!!!!!!!!!

Sorry my friends.......I know this is not the most pleasant of posts and a real downer but if I couldn't share this experience with y'all, I would literally explode. Thank you all for listening and supporting. Your friendship means the world to me.

Love

obsessedwithpantyhose

12-08-2008, 07:28 PM

Brandiwvr

12-08-2008, 07:30 PM

so sorry for the turm oil. you will be ok whether you split or not. we dont get much opertunity to change but we can communicate and either way i would try to keep that open and honest from here on. bigg huggs and go see the therapist either way.

Katie Moore

12-08-2008, 07:31 PM

Hey Lis,

Sometimes life just plain sucks. Ain't no other way to put it. My hope and prayer is that you find the peace and happiness that everyone seeks. We all like to tell everybody else what they should do but tonight I just hope you and your wife can work it out.

Katie

Karren H

12-08-2008, 07:35 PM

it sucks that the SO in a cd relationship cant see the BIG picture,,,,,

So it's their fault?? hahaha That's a great statement... They didn't sign up for this knowingly so I wouldn't blame any of them including my wife who found out almost the same way for diviorcing them, us... me... in a heartbeat....

Sara Jessica

12-08-2008, 07:44 PM

we are NOT hurting anyone,,raping babies,,selling drugs killing people,,or being drunk wife beaters,,,

This part is so true. My wife has actually said it might be easier if I was having an affair!!!

No, I wouldn't do that, nor am I any of the above. So sorry to hear of this Lisa. Stay strong, hopefully all will work out for the best.

12-08-2008, 07:50 PM

i am so sorry to hear this . try to get her to forget about it until after Christmas at least have one more fun time before the crap hits the fan. my heart goes out to you :hugs:
been there done that got the bumper sitcker... and the dog house

Tess

12-08-2008, 07:54 PM

So it's their fault?? hahaha That's a great statement... They didn't sign up for this knowingly so I wouldn't blame any of them including my wife who found out almost the same way for diviorcing them, us... me... in a heartbeat....

I agree. Of all the things that our SO may think they could face during a marriage, a cross dressing husband probably isn't one of them. I don't think my wife could handle it and I really couldn't blame her.

GG Pearls

12-08-2008, 08:04 PM

Dear Lisa,

What helped me the most in my head and heart was to realize that Jina is the same person who has faithfully loved and cared for me all the years we have been together.

I dunno if it will help at all, but if you could just get your wife to understand that she really does know you, that you really are the person she thought you were, and that this is just a part of you, in a sense, maybe she will be ok with it or at least try to work it out.

In my mind, thirty years worth of commitment, work, dollars earned, holidays spent, crises met, etc. should not be overshadowed by this part of you. It's an important part, but it's a part, nevertheless.

Keep us posted, and be courageous!

Love!!!! Hugs!!!!

Brina Halloween

12-08-2008, 08:53 PM

I hope you can wait until after Christmas for any decisions, it is a really lousy time for bad relations.

We all hope we find the one that will accept us truly in the "for better or worse" but, the strange, unusual, and odd thing still catches people off-guard.

If you get through this, I suggest a locked trunk, gun safe, etc. to guarantee the "out of sight, out of mind" policy.

Good luck

sissystephanie

12-08-2008, 09:34 PM

we are NOT hurting anyone,,raping babies,,selling drugs killing people,,or being drunk wife beaters

I totally disagree with Obsessed's statement. You ARE hurting someone when you lie and deceive them!! Marriage is now, and always has been, a two way street. Or better stated, a two person situation. Honest and open communication must always be the way to handle things. And that means from the very beginning, BEFORE the marriage.

Lisa's wife married a real man! But that man likes to wear women's clothing! She did not know that, because he never thought to tell her, and give her the option of saying NO to his proposal. Was that fair to her..........not in any sense of the word!

I am truly sorry if a 30 year marriage has to end like this, but you know deep in your heart that it is entirely your fault!! If you really truly love her, and after 30 years I would think so, you can give up Lisa in order to keep her! You have to decide what is more important! Satisfying your own desires, or keeping the lady you loved enough to marry! I have been a CD for over 60 years, but if a certain lady told me to stop being Stephanie I would in a heartbeat! My love for her is strong enough that I know that I could stop being Stephanie. My dear late wife, who was fully supportive from before our marriage, once asked me to stop being Stephanie! I did, and one year later she handed me a pair of panties and a bra and told me it was time for Stephanie to reappear!:)

Bethany_Anne_Fae

12-09-2008, 01:26 AM

So it's their fault?? hahaha That's a great statement... They didn't sign up for this knowingly so I wouldn't blame any of them including my wife who found out almost the same way for diviorcing them, us... me... in a heartbeat....

Yep, and this is why I perpetuate the HONESTY aspect for people wanting to know IF they should tell their soon-to-be spouses up front. Either risk losing them right away, or suffer the hardhsip that comes out after a LONG time of lying about it.

Zarabeth

DocChuck

12-09-2008, 02:35 AM

The only thing I can think to say to you is give her some time to try and get right in her mind. My wife was not too happy either. Being married to me is hardly a picnic.
In due time she realized that I am still me even in a dress or in pantyhose. She loves me for who I am and who I am is a man who likes to dress as a woman. Right now she cannot see beyond the feeling threatened. When and if she can you may be able to talk to her. I wish you luck.

Satrana

12-09-2008, 02:56 AM

Lisa

So sad to hear this happen. She has spent 30 years with you and is now contemplating throwing that all away because her head in the sand approach backfired. This is why people have to get these issues properly sorted out when they first materialize and not let them be swept under the carpet because you can pretty much guarantee they will be come back to haunt you.

Suggest you remind her what you have accomplished and the commitments you have made with her over 30 years despite not being the "real" man she dreams about.

StayceeCD

12-09-2008, 03:21 AM

I totally disagree with Obsessed's statement. You ARE hurting someone when you lie and deceive them!! Marriage is now, and always has been, a two way street. Or better stated, a two person situation. Honest and open communication must always be the way to handle things. And that means from the very beginning, BEFORE the marriage.

Lisa's wife married a real man! But that man likes to wear women's clothing! She did not know that, because he never thought to tell her, and give her the option of saying NO to his proposal. Was that fair to her..........not in any sense of the word!

I am truly sorry if a 30 year marriage has to end like this, but you know deep in your heart that it is entirely your fault!! If you really truly love her, and after 30 years I would think so, you can give up Lisa in order to keep her! You have to decide what is more important! Satisfying your own desires, or keeping the lady you loved enough to marry! I have been a CD for over 60 years, but if a certain lady told me to stop being Stephanie I would in a heartbeat! My love for her is strong enough that I know that I could stop being Stephanie. My dear late wife, who was fully supportive from before our marriage, once asked me to stop being Stephanie! I did, and one year later she handed me a pair of panties and a bra and told me it was time for Stephanie to reappear!:)

Stephanie,
I agree with you about taking responsibility. It is truly a confusing place for a wife to be after thinking she married a "manly man".. But sometimes situations like that are unavoidable because we ourselves are so confused by it. I don't know Lisa's whole story but it very much mirrors what I am currently going through.. I met my wife when I was 20 in 1983. She was 18. we dated for a long time and got married in 1992.. I was still trying to figure out what I was at that time and was young and full of guilty feelings for thinking I was a freak. I wasn't going to to tell ANYONE!! I thought it would pass.. Sure, I put it on the back burner for a long time but it A L W A Y S comes back! More guilty feelings, and now being married for a few years. Thought I could give it up again.. Tried.. Didn't work.. Long story short.. She found out.. They ALWAYS will eventually.. She was understandably shocked.. At first she said it turned her on, then she did an immediate about face and it's now sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" situation.. She says "I'm the one with the problem" and will not see a therapist with me.. She doesn't want to know about it and I'm realistic enough to know you CAN NOT give it up! It is a part of you just as much as your skin is! You can deny it and put it on the back burner for a while but you are just being unrealistic. You can't quit this even for someone you love! You'll just be lying even more! That being said, I can only imagine being put in that place myself. If my wife wanted to put hair on her face and a bulge in her pants I would be devastated.. I don't know what will happen with my marriage but I try to bring it up from time to time cause I know communication is the key..I love her very very much and hope she will one day want to open the lines of communication.. I AM the same person she's known since 1983! I AM a great father to our daughter! I AM a great provider, and I AM a crossdresser! :2c: Sorry for the rant!!

Joanne f

12-09-2008, 04:02 AM

I am sorry to hear of you and your wife`s situation at the moment , and i do not think that we should be laying the blame on anyone as that would mean that one person is right and one is wrong when it is a combination of events that taken one at a time can be sorted out if both are willing to like in any relationship "give and take ".
You need to look at your wife's needs and she needs to look at yours and you come up with a compromise, i know it is so easy for someone else to say that and so hard to put it into practise, but that is what relationships are about not one or the other demanding anything as that only causes resentment.
I wish you both well in sorting this out as i can feel and look at it from both sides.

joanne

PortiaHoney

12-09-2008, 04:10 AM

Ok. Put me up for a stoning now will you. I know there are a lot of us in similar positions but on this part I am really strong on.

Lisa, you said that this has been a problem for years and you keep sweeping it under the carpet at your SO's request? You both keep seeing therapists until you find one who agrees with her? YOU agreed to keep your "stuff" hidden and out of sight, never to be mentioned? She wants you "fixed"?

Why, oh why, do we keep blaming ourselves when we TRY to do whats right? Even when it goes pear shaped, it's always OUR fault and we always appologise for it? You have acknowledged you are not doing this to get at her - it's something inside you that drives you? SHE cannot understand or even tolerate what is going on.

The stoning part!!!!! It is a crying shame that you both took 30 years to come to the same conclusion that could have taken place years ago. What a waste........

I'm sorry. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but if she can't understand or love you as you are - warts and all, then you shouldn't be together. If your relationship is built on lies and deceit, then you should not be together. Ouch.

The problem here is that you tried to please her and hide your real self. The other problem is that you were successful for so long. I am not blaming her for her reaction - everybody has their limits on what they can live with. I am not blaming you - you were just trying to please her at your own expense. The real problem is that you both tried to deny a part of you that have found you could not live without and she can't live with.

I am a great advocate of openness and honesty. Even if it hurts. If you AGREE to keep this part of your personality hidden from your SO and she understands that this is a part of you and a need that she cannot satisfy, then that is being open and honest. It is not deception when you BOTH agree to keep it under wraps. She does not have to take part, but the relationship will suffer if she does not consent. If you are sneaking around and seeking personal satisfaction WITHOUT you partners willing consent - then you might as well be having an affair, "raping babies", murdering people>>>>>

Well, I for one, hope that there can be a happy ending to this dilemma. I can't see it though, but my heart and thoughts are with you both.

At the very worst, I hope you can both remain friends.

Why do I feel so strongly on this - been there, done that, got the t-shirt to prove it. Our marriage wasn't wasted, but it could have been so much better. I was in denial and she was happy for me to be there.

And Stephanie - it's not fair to say that you would give up Stephanie in a heartbeat if your wife asked you to and we should all follow that action - there is a very good reason why she gave you the bra and panties my friend. We are not all so lucky.

:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:Portia

Samantha Kelsey

12-09-2008, 04:54 AM

Hi there Lisa,

I was saddened to read your story and I can fully sympathise with both you and your wife. You are into something which is impossible to escape from even if you wanted and she rightfully feels cheated and can't accept it. Stale Mate! I've been there and faced many very bitter comments from my wife(ex). Life became unbearable. When sober she would say it was all okay and she had no problem with it but after a drink she would be absolutley evil towards me becase of it.

I felt all the guilt for being the one to start it and then spoiling her dreams. The main difference with us is that I told her early on before I had any CD items of my own.

I finally told her that I didn't want to live with her anymore as I could not and would not take any more of her mental/verbal abuse and that we both deserved a better life than what we currently had. The opening lines of an old Randy Crawford song summed up my situation,
" If you're not afraid of what love brings
Then endings are beginings of beautiful things"

We split up and I realised that she would spread the news about me quickly, which she did in (over)graphic detail. I didn't want friends or family to be hurt so I had to get in first. I came out totally to them. Now I can see that this was the best move I could have made. And now?

I met this fantastic woman who (due to my ex) knew about me. We would talk about it a lot and finally we became lovers. We now live happily together and she accepts me for the person that I am. She is also a member on this website (katy dee).

I think you are nearing your darkest point but I write to assure you that there is definitely a bright shining light at the end of the tunnel.

I sincerely wish you all the best and hope that you both can find the right solution to your saddness.
Samantha K

mona lisa

12-09-2008, 05:11 AM

kittypw GG

12-09-2008, 05:36 AM

it sucks that the SO in a cd relationship cant see the BIG picture,,,,,
we are NOT hurting anyone,,raping babies,,selling drugs killing people,,or being drunk wife beaters,,,(I wonder if they would rather live with a wife beater instead)

WE are NOT the sick ones,,we know who we are,,,,,,

who says your not a REAL man??? just because you like to wear soft clothes...why should only the females get to wear the fun clothes..i HATE labels....WE ARE ALL HUMANS.........

shyt,,i do work on cars and the house while dressed,,,,
im a jack/jill of all trades and can build you a house while wearing a skirt and 4 inch heels,,,

I am sorry but this makes me :Angry3: Just what is the big picture???? I don't think she was allowed to see the "big picture" because her husband, the "real man" in her life sort of left the big picture out!!!! How is hiding this not hurting someone???? Fricking explain that to me. And I hope you are not suggesting that wife beaters and child rapers are the alternative to relationships with cd's. :Angry3:

You say you are not the sick ones and you know who you are?? Then why in the world don't you share who you are up front in a relationship??? Why the intent to deceive? I'm sure he got exactly what he bargined for, but he did not allow her to have the same.

And get off the soft clothes crap, men have a full selection of soft clothes to pick from and a large variety to boot. Oye it is not about the damn clothes!!!!!!

This is about betrayal, this is about selling yourself as something you are not. He billed himself as a "real man" and that is what she thought she was getting. Not someone who wants to be a faux girl! He made his bed now he has to lie in it.

Kitty

Satrana

12-09-2008, 06:48 AM

. I was still trying to figure out what I was at that time and was young and full of guilty feelings for thinking I was a freak.

And that is an important thing to remember especially for those who entered into a relationship before the widespread use of the internet, basically any time before the turn of the century. Almost all CDs were completely isolated and unable to understand their own feelings and thought themselves the worst freaks alive. To condemn anyone who found themselves in such a predicament is to be devoid of understanding and empathy.

Similarly when you know that others will almost certainly consider you a freak and hate you for being so, exactly what about that is going to encourage you to open up? It is only human to avoid the pain such prejudices bring.

How many people would so readily condemn a woman who decided not to reveal her childhood abuse? All CDs are victims of society's intolerance which leads to self loathing and guilt. While we should overcome these feelings ourselves, a little compassion from others would not go amiss.

Kelsy

12-09-2008, 07:27 AM

:sad:I'm now contemplating a split-up and probable divorce somewhere in my future......after 30 years together!

Very very sad!!!! ending a 30 year marriage jezzzz try to work it out!!
regrets can be hell to live with. 50 something and sneaking off to the attic " as I use to" to play with your panties and your wife is upset!! My God we are a crazy bunch
:sad: Kelsy

deja true

12-09-2008, 07:48 AM

Katie B's posts (#'s 21 and 22) and Satrana's last (#23) are exactly what was going through my head as I was reading this thread...

Except in the rarest of circumstances, there just was NO telling, NO possibility of compromise if you'd told over 30 years ago! Even with the most educated and sensitive woman in the world, there would have been friction over this revelation.

And on our sides, without the support of empathetic others (like most of those on this forum) and with an official med/psyche attitude that cd'ing was a mental illness, all we had was guilt and fear and recrimination!

I kept quiet, too. And I felt safe. And I let the chance of marriage to several miraculous women slip through my fingers because of it!

Get off lisa's case. She did the best she could. But she ended up with a woman who decided not to love her. It's sad that it took so long for this drama to finally end up as a tragedy, when it could have ended up as a romantic comedy!

Sara Jessica

12-09-2008, 07:48 AM

,,,we are NOT hurting anyone,,raping babies,,selling drugs killing people,,or being drunk wife beaters,,,

This part is so true. My wife has actually said it might be easier if I was having an affair!!!

No, I wouldn't do that, nor am I any of the above. So sorry to hear of this Lisa. Stay strong, hopefully all will work out for the best.

Please let me qualify what I said above because I have since seen where this thread has gone. In my agreement, I was referring to the physical part, ie - "we're not selling drugs, wife beaters, etc". A wig stylists once said the same thing to me, that it's not like we're out there hurting people or breaking laws.

But this is purely in a physical sense. We clearly are hurting people, doing harm to our relationships, especially where our partners don't know going into it what they're up against. And even if they do know going into marriage (like my wife), there's still the issue about how this whole thing will play out as we grow older. Some are able to make it work in a wonderfully supportive way, others muddle through a middle path which may or may not include a "don't ask, don't tell" element" while many are hopelessly locked in the closet, unable to disclose anything about this to their partners for fear of the high likelihood of utter destruction of the relationship.

Cassia-Marie

12-09-2008, 07:52 AM

I'm so sorry to hear about your misfortune. I sincerely hope that you can both reach a place where you can at least be civil with each other. And, like the others said, try not to do anything brash until after the holidays. It's too easy to slip into depression this time of the year even without a major life-change like your own. I wish you the best of luck and please know that we're here for you if you need us.

12-09-2008, 08:07 AM

Just remember were here for Lisa she is the one hurting right now she is the one who is the member here... we have read this stuff time and time again.
the truth is Lisa love her S.O so much that she stayed with her for 30+ years keeping her cding deep deep in the closet for the sake of the love Lisa had for her S.O only to be found out yet Again before Christmas a time were are supposed to put away our hate and show how much we love and care.
Lisa i am truly sorry :hugs:

jillleanne

12-09-2008, 08:07 AM

Lisa, It's also important for you to remind yourself your 'imperfections' are not , but rather, 'enhancements' to your male gender. If you like, and happen to be a member of 'URNOTALONE', you can read my blog on coming out to my gg and the struggles I endured.
My thoughts are with you sis.
Hugs, Jill

Samantha Kelsey

12-09-2008, 09:06 AM

I think that many of the above comments are valid for preventing a situation like Lisa's arising but we should remember here that 'the milk has already been spilled and the horse has already bolted.

They are where they are!

I agree with Joanne F pointing the finger of blame is not going to help here, now it will only make it harder to resolve the problem.

Perhaps what Lisa and her SO need now is help to move forward not to look back.

Jenny Doolittle

12-09-2008, 09:21 AM

Hi Lisa,

Like so many others I am sorry to hear of your troubles and the empending resolve. I have seen my own 35 year marrage with my wife in your own and certainly hope it ends differently then yours.

I certainly agree with Stacy in her comments, we have the exact same story. I too met my wife as a teenager, married quite young at 20 years old and really thought, "Thank God, This will be just what I need to stop dressing.

I think growing up most of us have gone through the confussion of who or what we are and why do we love to dress in girls things. As we continue in life we experiance different things, dating, marriage, and with each we have decisions to make about revealing who we really are. I dont know if it was a lack of courage that had me hid my little secret, or the hope that with this relationship I would not need or desire it any longer, but what ever the reason I never told my friends, family. or wife.

After living with it for your entire life....purging, empty promises to yourself, and finially the relization it is a part of you and finialy accept who U are I was brave enough to tell my wife. OMG It was like a cleansing for me, but laying a burden on her, But finealy open communication.

Sites like this that have helped me understand myself, 40 plus years ago a transgendered person had no internet to learn what this was all about. You felt totaly alone and felt as thoguh you were the only person in the world that liked to dress. I do believe the internet and informational sites like this help each one of us know who and what we are. It can do wounders in informing a spouse and learn more to making it easier to have an open relationship. But it still is a matter of society to change it's opinion about transgender issues before we will be rid of the guilt that has kept us in the closets to loved ones.
My wife and I have had several heart to hearts, confirmed our love for one another, but she still can not understand why, but does realize it is a part of me and now it is a continual series of compromises.

I hope it ends differently in my situation then yours, I have to believe it will.

If I had it all to do again, And for those gurls facing this decision, PLease be honest, be brave, and have faith in your love of your partner and their love for you. Part of my wife's critisum of me was that I did not trust her enough with my secret. Even though it was my hope I could stop, mixed with a sence of shame do to my own ignorance at the time. she was right!

Angie G

12-09-2008, 11:09 AM

Don't be sorry for the post Lisa We are here for you hun. And you don't have any imperfections you are who you are and that not a bad thing. And she is the one with the problem If she would let herself she could get some good times out of it. Just believe you not wrong. And you can vent anytime you need hun.:hugs:
Angie

mklinden2010

12-09-2008, 11:39 AM

In the HBO series, "Six Feet Under" David's ex-fiancee confronts him about his not being honest with her, all along, about his homosexuality. She is very bitter about this and he ducks her abuse several times - while feeling horrible about having been dishonest. Finally, however, he has his moment where he tells her, "I'm sorry I lied to you. But, the fact is, I was lying to myself too." Bingo.

As many comment in these forums, it's important to get over feeling awful about what you do in life and beating yourself up for (perhaps odd) things you just clearly like to do. You are not raping babies or driving drunk; you are pursing a quiet interest and exploring several gentle paths as you discover more and more about yourself. It's hard, at first, to share these things, because it seems like something that can't be shared. But, the other side of that is that the time you spend on your pursuits is time taken away from other things. That quiet theft of time and eroding of trust, (Where were you?) is what does the most harm.

The most hurtful thing about all this is not that you're doing "odd things," - everyone does something odd. No, the most hurtful thing is you're doing odd things and spending so much time and energy trying to keep them secret. Why? Do the "cost benefit" analysis and chose, if you want to put it this way, "the lesser of two evils." Better to be a crossdresser than a liar. As for what David said, "Lying to myself..." learn more, not less, about yourself and your pursuits so that you can work this aspect of your life into your entire life with others. You have the right to be a bit odd, you rarely have the right to be deceptive.

I think you wrote that she knew about the dressing and maybe the breast forms too. But, that you kept hiding things. That really makes no sense - it just sets someone (everyone) up for some upset down the road, as it did when she came across your things. Duh. If it is, then it is... Around here, if I get an idea to do something, I mention it first and then I go do it. My SO can respond anyway she likes when I tell her - and sometimes she comes up with an even better idea! But, having stated my goal, I then, barring a better idea, go ahead and do what I said I was going to do. We've talked about "me" many times and I am honest and deliberate in ALL the things that I do. If, for example, I say, "Let's go see your Dad on Monday" - my idea - I am at the door with my keys in hand on Monday.

Be consistent in providing for a happy relationship, as you both define it, and I think anyone can get better results. Keeping things to yourself, not communicating, not keeping each person's interests in mind while tending to "our" relationship, just leads to disappointment, misunderstanding, "surprises," and unhappiness. Who needs that?

And, bottom line, if you need a pickup truck instead of a sedan, or just anything with four wheels that runs better than what you have, then change vehicles if you must.

Chose better, not bitter.

Good luck.

vivianann

12-09-2008, 12:36 PM

I have always believed that honesty in a relatioship is the best policy. I have never hidden the fact I like to wear womens clothes from a GG when getting into a relationship. yes when I tell the women about it they run away from me, yes it hurts, but at least they know and if they dont like it they have the opportunity to get out of the relationship before they get too far into it. I do hope one day to find a woman who wont run away when I tell her about my crossdressing. to my fellow crossdressers, do not bash the GG's, it is only hurting our acceptence of our crossdressing. Kitty, your point is right on, we need to be real, and show our true selves, betrayal hurts worse than anything, I know because I have been betrayed by the ones I loved. PEAPLE NEED TO BE HONEST WHEN IN RELATIONSHIPS.

Magickman

12-09-2008, 12:52 PM

And I thought the price you pay for crossdressing, was the expense of two wardrobes, and two sets of shoes.

Guess I was shortsigted.

But being perpetually single, I am without worry of a wife's opinions and complaints.

Man, am I glad that I never got married.

Melinda G

12-09-2008, 01:12 PM

No doubt about it. CDing is hard on a relationship. As I've posted many times, for every SO who is OK with it, a dozen aren't! Keep that in mind, all of you who feel the need to "come out"to your SO.

Beth-Lock

12-09-2008, 03:13 PM

The time pre-1970 and now, in attitudes towards male roles excluding cross-dressing has a parallel in the marriage expectations of males, who felt that female roles excluded what was soon to be called women's lib. A lot of men felt cheated when times changed and allowed the liberation of women. Now times have changed and allowed the liberation of CD tendencies. Whose fault is it that times change?

sherib

12-09-2008, 03:31 PM

Many of us have gone through the same crisis. If its to the point that she needs a divorse then there were other problems in the marriage. If both of you were truely in love, then this would be just another little bump in the marriage. Unless ofcourse you wanted complete acceptance with allowing her to show her feelings.

Louise C

12-09-2008, 04:12 PM

Hi Lisa.
I have to say that i admire the fact that you are admitting to having hurt your wife. It takes a lot to admit something like that. I don't neccesarily agree with you that it's all your fault, we don't make a choice to be like this. We all have regrets for not doing things the right way, first time.

The fact that some here have ranted and that some have comforted demonstrates how easy it is for people to discuss difficult issues on this forum.

I hope that sharing your hurt has made you feel better in yourself at least. There doesn't seem to be a magic answer for you, but i wish you luck and hope you and your SO can come out the other end happier people, whichever paths you take..:) Remember though. we're here for you.

Jennifer Cox

12-09-2008, 06:05 PM

Hi Lisa, my situation seems eerily similar to yours, except for the bit about searching for my stuff.

For all those commenting and casting blame, also remember that a lot of things happen during 30+ years of a relationship. Peoples desires, ambitions etc all change over time. Also, families are involved, so a simple one line description hardly covers all of the issues both parties have.

Hope it all works out for you. :hugs:

jessielee

12-09-2008, 06:20 PM

Don't be sorry for the post Lisa We are here for you hun. And you don't have any imperfections you are who you are and that not a bad thing...
Angie
dear Lisa,
how very sorry i am for you. i agree so much with dear Deja that if disclosed back then, there'd be no horrific split now. wish i could go back in time. but we can't.
this is my imperfection, among others, secrecy. but it's preferable to losing all, especially my children. i stand with Ange and others, dressing is revealing truth, even when limited by love and respect. it is not being wrong or imperfect.
we are here for you dear.
could be in your shoes so quickly,
jessie

TSchapes

12-09-2008, 06:26 PM

rickie121x

12-09-2008, 06:47 PM

We almost never mean to hurt someone. But it happens, so sad to say, and when it is with someone we have been very close with, it is doubly sad - for all involved. And when it is a family - so many more have been involved.

But life goes on, and we learn, hopefully.

The only person you can change is yourself! So if you have committed any of the seven deadly sins, make your apologies, and make your amends. Your partner will react in a manner that is her responsibility, not yours. The results are not up to you.

The results are not up to you - but doing the right thing is so very up to you. And in a complex situation such as this, probably only you and your therapist would have a clue into what the "right thing" really is.

You have my sympathy and my best wishes, Rickie :hugs:

lisa_vin

12-09-2008, 07:26 PM

Hello dear friends and sisters! Thank each and every single one of you for all of your thoughts, support, friendship, advice, reflection and criticism. I really didn't expect such a huge outpouring and variety of feelings......I am deeply touched, humbled and so utterly grateful for ALL responses, good and bad! Our community here numbers, what, several thousand, and it's been beautifully illustrated that no 2 of us are completely alike or will ever feel COMPLETELY the same way about everything......just as no fingerprints or eye patterns match. The flaws and imperfections are a mark of all humankind and always will be and I think it is wonderful because it allows each of us to be unique in our own way no matter how it's perceived or judged by others. "I Gotta Be Me" is a great line in a song and means so much to everyone but we always have to remember that not everyone else will agree with the "me" you have to be!

As for my wife & I, we totally agree that we will always be friends and love each other and be there for each other no matter how this eventually ends. We do share a very long history together and a beautiful 13 year old daughter so we owe it to her just as much as to ourselves to do and be the best we can. We also agree that it just cannot be on intimate terms and bound by marriage any more. I am extremely hopeful that we can remain living under the same roof together as friends and roommates for economic and support reasons as well as for our daughter's sake.....at least for the forseeable future. We've actually been living this way already for many months so the only difference would be that she finally realizes that I really am who I am and I cannot change and I think she may be already starting to come to grips with that which I see as a real positive for her sake. (Thrown into that mix.....I take several meds daily and have for years for various conditions such as thyroid, heart rhythm, cholesterol, blood pressure, antidepressants and testosterone shots every two weeks for testosterone deficiency so my libido has been virtually non-existent for many months now and tossing in all our other issues only serves to make intimacy non-existent for ME no matter what amount or kinds of fantasizing, role-playing, techniques, toys or props are used.......it produces absolutely no stimulus whatsoever for me and therein lies the biggest source of disappointment of all for her and the one main thing she can no longer deal with and I really can't blame her for that either. I can't take any of those "E.D." meds because of possible medical interactions or bad reactions and we have ruled out any of those pumps or other mechanical devices.)

As for the marriage, there ARE other issues involved in the decline of it. Discovering the breast forms and wigs brought the full reality of my cd'ing crashing down on her and served as the final impetus to push us to the point of deciding it can't be fixed and we would both truly be happier if allowed to live our lives as we wish. There are some truly "irreconcilable" differences about each other that existed separately from the cd'ing for many years that we both managed to suppress and live with for years and this one event just seemed to unleash them all. On top of that, we have been growing apart in opposite directions for several years. We now have very little in common in anything........our likes, dislikes and things we enjoyed doing are on two different planets now. We've changed over 30 years but the changes in almost all areas have been drastic and moved in total opposite directions. We truly want each other to be happy and on this we totally agree. There is no big rush for a separation or divorce at this time although we do agree that separate living places might serve us well for a while as a cooling down period so seeing each other every day doesn't keep stoking the anger, resentment, disappointment and stress. We'll just take it one day at a time from here on and see how it evolves.

So, as you all can see, cd'ing was not the sole reason for our problems but it proved to be insurmountable. Even if we had an active sex life and fewer other issues, finding those forms and wigs would have been enough to put us where we are now any way.....I'm sure of it. After all, I have been with her for 35 years total so I knew what she could and could not handle. However, I was so wrong for lying and keeping secrets about my cd'ing......I betrayed her and destroyed her trust by doing that and that is usually unrecoverable and never the same again. I falsely believed that her tolerance in cd'ing might eventually change along the way because she loved "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" when we saw it many years ago and seemed to express a genuine intrigue and curiosity about cd'ing guys but that is all it ever was......a curiosity........and definitely did not include "her" guy!

Love!!!!!

ReineD

12-09-2008, 07:46 PM

Believe me, any future relationship attempt, if any, will include a full, up-front disclosure of my imperfections so there will be no misunderstandings of who I am and the person they will be getting!!!!!!!!!

Crossdressing is NOT an imperfection, nor is it anything to be ashamed of. It also does not define you. It is only one of many other aspects of the wonderful person that you are. :hugs:

In my opinion, a spouse's ability to accept others for who they are is intrinsic. It has less to do with their partner's characteristics and whether or not they fit into what is perceived to be "normal" than having an extremely narrow-minded and self-centered view of the world. No doubt your wife is just as priggish when placing judgments on other people, and she will ultimately only harm herself as she is narrowing her own experiences. I was also married to someone for nearly 30 years who could not accept that I had different views than his own, and in his eyes I was wrong and also needed to be "fixed".

I bought into this for many years until I became healthy enough to know that I deserved better. I know now that I deserve to be loved simply for who I am.

I sincerely hope your separation process will continue to be amicable. In my experience, this is very rare.

Clara

12-09-2008, 08:10 PM

PortiaHoney

12-10-2008, 04:02 AM

On top of that, we have been growing apart in opposite directions for several years. We now have very little in common in anything........our likes, dislikes and things we enjoyed doing are on two different planets now. We've changed over 30 years but the changes in almost all areas have been drastic and moved in total opposite directions. We truly want each other to be happy and on this we totally agree.

Thank you Lisa for keeping us informed of your progress. People do change and people do grow, not necessarily together. I know it must be hard for both of you and WE are all thinking of you. Many of us have been in this boat but it is good to hear that the 30 years were not totally wasted. A lovely 13yo daughter and hopefully you will continue to remain good friends. Good luck with your voyage.

:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::love:Po rtia

Sheila

12-10-2008, 04:30 AM

Karren Hutton & Tess.
yes but 30 years is a very very long time, hopefully there is enough in those 30 years tog that will enable them to work through this again and together, I cetainly hope so

Lisa
So sad to hear this happen. She has spent 30 years with you and is now contemplating throwing that all away because her head in the sand approach backfired. This is why people have to get these issues properly sorted out when they first materialize and not let them be swept under the carpet because you can pretty much guarantee they will be come back to haunt you.
Suggest you remind her what you have accomplished and the commitments you have made with her over 30 years despite not being the "real" man she dreams about.

Satrana amny times we have batted heads in threads somehow we are almost on the same page with this one .... the comment about her head in the sand approach is just a tad harsh ........... can you not see that for 20 odd years she struggled herself to accept this, but she hung in there and kept going, I hope they do the same again and reach noasis of pease

Kitty, your personal anger is
coming out, and it doesn't greatly help Lisa or her wife. Surely you've been around here long enough to know why some of us in our ignorance didn't tell all. Lisa is in her fifties, she married in her twenties. No great point in blaming her for the mistakes of her youth now. Coming out of the closet is not easy today; back in the 1970s it was damn near impossible.

And lay off the "not a real man" bit, please. You wouldn't be happy at any husband who refused to let his wife wear trousers because that made her "not a real woman", would you? Some of us are in painful enough situations without this confusion of the issues.

SPOT ON KATIE B ................ Kitty you really do have to let stop this anger of yours against your ex spilling over into every other thread, I know you were hurt hun, but he did that and you for so long allowed him to do that ........... you and I both know we were given good advice from the cdr's themselves when we came here seeking their advice and we choose at that time not to ignore it but hang in there hoping it would get better, our situations did not but hopefully Lisa's situation can be recovered to allow them to continue to be tog in their marriage

No doubt your wife is just as priggish when placing judgments on other people, and she will ultimately only harm herself as she is narrowing her own experiences. .

Reine I just cannot agree with that statement I find it unbelievable thatt someone as compassionate as you yourself are could make it :eek:

Lisa I wish you the very best hun, I hope you and your wife remeber the good in the thirty years you had tog and that that will allow you to work through another cding problem good luck hun :hugs:

ReineD

12-10-2008, 04:40 AM

Reine I just cannot agree with that statement I find it unbelievable thatt someone as compassionate as you yourself are could make it :eek:

:boo:

You're right, Sheila. The situation reminded me of my own and I let my anger rise to the surface. My apologies to all, especially to Lisa's wife. The comment was not directed at you, but rather to my ex. :sad:

Sheila

12-10-2008, 04:46 AM

:boo:

You're right, Sheila. The situation reminded me of my own and I let my anger rise to the surface. My apologies to all, especially to Lisa's wife. The comment was not directed at you, but rather to my ex. :sad:

Thanks Reine, I know sometimes we forget but thats the beauty of this family, we are here to support each other and sometimes support means hearing things we would rather not

sending you :hugs: & :love:

Joanne f

12-10-2008, 04:51 AM

I feel like I need to react to those posts that express such outrage over your not telling your wife before the marriage. Yes, honesty is important. But then, I agree that 30 years ago telling a woman that you are a CD wasn't as easy as today (not that today it is extremely easy). But times have changed. For example, I am the one who works part time to take care of our child, who takes care of the house, cooks, etc. And my wife is the one with the career. And it is just completely normal. Would it be so normal 30 years ago? So, no I don't blame you, Lisa, for not telling your wife. And those who were not in your shoes should not either.

Good luck to you both.

Yes i would agree that things have changed, years ago it would have been electric shocks and a sanatorium if you were not cured, there would have been no way that you could have told anyone , it is completely different for the younger one`s of today , and you can tell that they have a different attitude towards Cding, an openness that we could of never had and i am pleased for them .
Just to give you a small example , i asked my wife " would you have gone out with me at the time if you knew that i was a Cd," and her answer was , probably not as i had never heard of it and did not understand it .
And before you jump on my back and say that i should have told her first,
i had not heard about it or understood it or even knew that i was one so things were more difficult then , so just bear that in mind before you condemn anyone for not telling straight away.

joanne

gerdaberlin

12-10-2008, 06:14 AM

I am only 15 years with my wife, TWO kids (1 and 7) and also discussing with my S>O> about what to do about our non-activity, cd-ing being ONE source for that! Thx so much for giving us insight on your process, and DO keep it up, for we all in relationships can only find some meaningful direction from how you handle this upcoming episode of your life. Perhaps even I shall one day chime in with your song!

Satrana

12-10-2008, 06:28 AM

However, I was so wrong for lying and keeping secrets about my cd'ing......I betrayed her and destroyed her trust by doing that and that is usually unrecoverable and never the same again.

Dear Lisa

You need to stop beating yourself up on this. You did the best you could given the circumstances and the lack of information. Did not your wife ask you to hide these things from her so she is implicit in keeping the cding a secretive pursuit. She also betrayed you by acting the way she did placing all the blame on you which you appear to have internalized. You cannot control how she deals with the ingrained prejudices she grow up with. Some people can overcome them, others cannot. The outcome would have been the same regardless of how truthful you thought you could be.

Or put it another way. If you had exposed every nook and cranny of your mind to her most likely you would have been divorced a long time ago and would not have had this long relationship or a beautiful daughter. Would that have been a better outcome? Were there not many happy and fulfilling moments for both of you that you would never want to dispense with?

If the two of you have indeed grown so far apart that the effort of forgiveness which is at the heart of every loving relationship is too much for her to give anymore, then it is time to move onto another place. Start looking forward and do not dwell on the past, you can still have a strong friendship and raise your daughter into adulthood together. You may even find that when the weight of marriage is gone the two of you may connect better than before.

deja true

12-10-2008, 07:07 AM

...You may even find that when the weight of marriage is gone the two of you may connect better than before.

This is so true! I'm much better friends with a couple of former gf's than I ever was a partner.

It took a lot of soul searching and growing up to finally become aware of what a self-centered jerk I sometimes was!

Talk about arrested development!

Still, Lisa (and others), that you were able to make a real commitment as young people and raise good kids is a commendable thing....something I've missed out on so far! :)

Margot

12-10-2008, 08:14 AM

lisa; your story is not unfamiliar to a lot of us here. However; some of what you have written to us indicates you are contrite in the realization that you have hidden away yourself from your wife. If you have not already done so sit and tell her a lot of what you have written here.
If you think therapy can help, keep it up if only to please your wife. 30 years is a lot of life to throw away without exploring all options.
Good luck
Margot

kittypw GG

12-10-2008, 10:07 PM

Kitty, your personal anger is coming out, and it doesn't greatly help Lisa or her wife. Surely you've been around here long enough to know why some of us in our ignorance didn't tell all. Lisa is in her fifties, she married in her twenties. No great point in blaming her for the mistakes of her youth now. Coming out of the closet is not easy today; back in the 1970s it was damn near impossible.

And lay off the "not a real man" bit, please. You wouldn't be happy at any husband who refused to let his wife wear trousers because that made her "not a real woman", would you? Some of us are in painful enough situations without this confusion of the issues.

you know what? Secrecy and deception doesn't help Lisa and his wife either. Any marriage that is based on lies and deception is doomed to fail. Lisa should be happy that it lasted so long. But I will say again, who gives back Lisa's wife all the time she invested in the future she thought she was getting? I'll bet you she did not fantasize about two old women rocking on the porch together. I'll bet you, Lisa lead her to belive that she would have a very different future after the kids were grown!

I don't give a crap what it was like in the 70"s. Hey I graduated in 1977. People were just as honest with eachother maybe more than now. That is a damn cop out.

When you cd's don't trust enough to tell the truth about yourselves and you find out that you loose trust in the very people you say you love.... well all I have to say is DUH.........................................

Lisa should get down on his knees and beg his wife for forgiveness and offer some solutions to work it out. If you are fresh out of ideas, well I guess that it really is not worth either partners time.

Just my opionion. Lots of relationships should end way before they actual do anyway. If more people had the guts to just be honest (and I mean on both sides of the fence) Maybe there would be more happy people on this planet.

Kitty

ReineD

12-10-2008, 11:23 PM

Kitty, you and I are friends .. we've had our differences in the past :straightface:, but who doesn't? :hugs:

I got my dander up in this thread too, except it was with Lisa's wife. There was too much about the situation that reminded me of my ex, and I was less than charitable with one of my comments about a facet of her wife's character. I'm pointing this out because it is all too easy at times to read our own circumstances into other peoples lives, when in reality we are only presented with a few meagre paragraphs of facts, which are presented from only one of the two points of view involved. It is impossible to get an accurate picture, given all the information, history and the nuances that we cannot know. I don't thing any one of us is capable of getting the true "big picture" for any given couple.

We all have different issues and fears to deal with, and I believe most people generally do the best they can under whatever circumstances they are presented with. I do not want to speak unfavorably against Lisa's wife again, but we do not know what mistakes, if any, she has made as well, and as Lisa pointed out, there are other factors than the CDing that are affecting the marriage.

I agree that honesty is best, and in my own case I do strive to tell the truth, but I also admit that I have not always been completely honest in my own life. Or sometimes the truth has come out, but later for a variety of reasons. Making mistakes is a part of the human experience, and I have made my share (you are familiar with my story). But it does hurt when the people in my life don't let me forget them, even though I have corrected those mistakes years ago.

Again I do agree with your position that SOs are not well served by being lied to, but eventually when they are presented with the truth, they do have options. One of them is deciding to do their best to accept the CDing and move forward with the marriage. The other is deciding they cannot, as in this case, and the marriage dissolves. Either way, the issue stops being about the lies since Lisa's wife has known about the CDing for quite some time, and become more about whether the couple can meet somewhere in the middle. But, as you are well aware with the awful circumstances involving your own ex, it takes two people to do this.
:hugs:

lisa_vin

12-11-2008, 11:18 AM

Hi to Everyone!

When I put this thread out here I fully expected a wide range of responses both positive and negative. However, this has obviously touched a very sensitive area in some people and to those I am truly sorry to have taken you back to such a painful place in your lives. In retrospect, I should have titled this thread "One of the prices you pay for crossdressing, deception and lies" because deception and lies were used on my part to hide it from her until she "found out". I asked her that if she knew about my cd'ing before we got married would she have married me and she said most definitely not so we started off this marriage based on my deception and lies. Heck, I'd been doing this since I was about 5 but had absolutely no idea this was a part of my persona, of who I am, and therefore a lifetime sentence! I honestly thought that once we were married that this burning built-in urge/desire/need/craving would lessen and go away.....I'd be cured! How wrong I was to think that and to place that kind of pressure on my wife without her knowing. If I could go back, if I could change things, if the world was perfect, if WE were perfect.......if......if.......if.......if.......I F you've never uttered that word in your life then you've probably never made a mistake and, therefore, are probably not human!

When talking about lies and deception it is very important to remember that this road almost always travels in both directions. I refuse to go into a major trashing mode here against my wife but I will say, only to level this playing field, I have had to endure and forgive 3 known affair attempts, 2 of them before she "found out" about me and the third one just a couple of months ago so please "judge not lest ye be judged". I've never even BEEN with another person in my entire life......she's my one and only......even though I've been tempted in the past I've always refused! There are a couple of other issues in our marital crisis as well but I won't go into those.

None of this behavior on either side is right but it is human! You've heard or seen the statement "To err is human, to forgive is divine". Well, this IS another road that SHOULD travel both directions but quite often does not! There are obviously limits to forgiveness for human beings and they vary from person to person!

I DO believe that honesty IS the best policy but at what price? If that honesty costs you a friendship or relationship then thats one price. But what if that honesty could cause a brutal, devastating hurt, permanent psychological damage or even worse - death from a suicide? While I agree that total honesty is best, judging WHEN to use it IS sometimes better!

It's not a perfect world and it never will be!

Melinda G

12-11-2008, 11:33 AM

Women know that crossdressing is sexually driven. And they want to be number one in your life. No offense, but what would be your reaction, if you found a dildo and a vibrator hidden in your wifes stuff. Hurt? Anger? Why does she need this stuff?

mklinden2010

12-11-2008, 11:48 AM

***Women know that crossdressing is sexually driven. And they want to be number one in your life. No offense, but what would be your reaction, if you found a dildo and a vibrator hidden in your wifes stuff. Hurt? Anger? Why does she need this stuff?

My reaction to finding such things?

"Hey, Christmas came early!!!"

But, you ask, "Why might she need those things?" What, are you serious? Clearly, she likes sex! I AM NOT going to try to talk her out of that! "Ahem. Perhaps I could be of assistance?"

And, actually... women don't know that (All?) crossdressing is sexually driven - any more than anyone else does. It's just not that simple. If it was, "sex and a nap" would be all there was...

(And, that would still be a lot...)

lisa_vin

12-11-2008, 12:33 PM

Hi Melinda!

Actually, she has those things and I don't have a problem with it at all as long as it makes her happy! I'm quite open-minded and tolerant to many things and am more than willing to discuss and compromise on pretty much anything. Hey, I'm a cd'er......what kind of person would I be to deny her happiness or pleasure after what my cd'ing has done to her. No two people's tolerance and acceptance levels are the same and, for me, EVERYTHING is negotiable but not necessarily agreeable!

TxKimberly

12-11-2008, 01:24 PM

Oh Lisa, I am so sorry. I just can't imagine the end of a 30 year relationship. My heart goes out to you.

One thing this thread has brought to the surface and made clear is that all of us are human.
We all have feelings, some more tender than others.
All of us have hurts and wounds, some a bit fresher than others.

Regardless of the reasons, regardless of who and what we may think is to be blamed, a 30 year relationship and marriage is in serious peril and apparently ending. Let's all try and keep that, and the pain that goes with it, in mind and be respectful of that here.

This is not where we should make accusations against Lisa or her wife, pointing fingers and assigning blame. This is where we should be hugging Lisa and her wife (were she here) and mourning the end of their marriage.

Satrana

12-12-2008, 03:29 AM

While I agree that total honesty is best, judging WHEN to use it IS sometimes better!

Wise words indeed. I wish people would get off their high horses with all this honesty nonsense. Everyday we all massage the truth in order to manage our relationships with others. We deliberately omit details or choose words to provide a different complexion or context on the topic to lessen negative feedback or to gain positive reactions.

People would be at each other's throats if we actually always told the truth. Life does not work that way so to keep harping on about total honesty achieves nothing. It is unreachable and ironically undesirable.

I don't need to know anything about Lisa's wife to know that over the many years of their relationship she has lied and deceived Lisa many times because she is human and that is what we do.

And what gets me the most is that we all lose sight of the most important fact of all. What exactly is so wrong with a man expressing his femininity? Nobody has yet explained why this is a bad thing. If we can all agree that women enjoying all the traditional roles of men in society is a great improvement and we encourage our daughters and wives to chase their dreams, why the negativity over feminine men?

So lets just keep reminding ourselves that the ultimate cause of the rejection of feminine men is just ingrained social prejudice, or to put it more bluntly sexism. And while everyone has the right to their own sexist viewpoints in their relationships, lets all agree that this is a backwards step that would best serve humanity if it were to be eliminated with open-mindedness and accepting people the way they are rather than the way we want them to be.

kittypw GG

12-12-2008, 07:42 AM

What exactly is so wrong with a man expressing his femininity? Nobody has yet explained why this is a bad thing. If we can all agree that women enjoying all the traditional roles of men in society is a great improvement and we encourage our daughters and wives to chase their dreams, why the negativity over feminine men?

So lets just keep reminding ourselves that the ultimate cause of the rejection of feminine men is just ingrained social prejudice, or to put it more bluntly sexism. And while everyone has the right to their own sexist viewpoints in their relationships, lets all agree that this is a backwards step that would best serve humanity if it were to be eliminated with open-mindedness and accepting people the way they are rather than the way we want them to be.

I will attempt to answer this question and try not to be so angry. First there is nothing wrong with a man expressing femininity. I love a man to be caring, giving and nurturing. I don't mind when a man has all the qualities I express.
But what we are talking about here is not a simple expression of femininity.

What we have here are men who want to presnt as women. Men who want to secretly be women? Men who are confused and can't even explain why they obsess about this matter. Men who can't explain why they can't find pleasing men clothes to express themselves. Heck what is it that we have here anyway????? I can't even wrap my mind around it because I have never had a single thought about being anything other than a girl nor dressing as such nor acting as such because I am a genetic girl. I can't even relate to such feelings.

This is the first problem. We don't understand it period.

Second there is a little matter of sexual attraction and it has nothing to do with and "ingrained social prejudice". For most women, feminine men are not sexually attractive. Put a feminine man in a dress and 3 in heals and you might as well forget any sexual attraction unless you are bi-sexual or gay.
I considered myself open minded and I am very heterosexual and let me tell you it took a lot to muster up any sexual attraction to my ex enfeme. That is the honest truth. And damn it I gave it my all too. My ex didn't even know that I was secretly wishing for it to be over. I might add that he did nothing to satisfy my fantasies in return, I just got more crossdressing for my acadamy award performances.:thumbsdn: When self absorbtion is all one can muster, it doesn't take long for a partner to just plain wear out and give up on the relationship.

What is exactly wrong with feminine men? Nothing if.... they give you the whole picture of themselves and are up front and honest about who they REALLY are. If...... they are mentally healthy. If..... they have perspective and live balanced lives. If .......... they want to have a healthy sexual relationship with a genetic women. This, unfortunately was not my experience nor is this the experience of many other partners of CD's. Why is it that a lot of us gg's have the same complaints?? I find that sort of curious.

From what I have experienced most wives that find out have tried to accept and grow with their partners with this thing called crossdressing. I find that the gg's have really been doing most of the homework and put most of the elbow grease into the relationship and get secrecy, silence, retribution in the form of accusations about being intolerant and unaccepting, sex drive on the cd's part seems to be comprimised due to a) just low sex drive b) self induldgence c) obsessive thinking d) have know idea why

So as you can see this is really not about a man simply expressing femininity.
Nor does it have anything to do with "ingrained social prejudice". I sort of resent this by the way.

Lisa I am very sorry that the women you loved betrayed you by seeking love outside of your marriage. I have no excuse nor explaination for that sort of behavior. I personally would end the relationship before doing such a thing but that is me. I am mature enought to know that not everyone follows the same moral code.

It is a damn shame that 30 years are about to go down the toilet. My ex's father, after 49 years of marriage, was asked in a questionaire when he was in the hospital if he had a good marriage? He said NO. As far as I know he was not a crossdresser. It is sad and unfortunate to have lived in an unhappy marriage for 49 years so maybe you can consider yourself lucky that you will have your freedom 19 years sooner.

:hugs:
Kitty

:hugs::hugs::hugs: for you.

curse within

12-12-2008, 08:34 AM

Lisa,

I know what you are going through...sorta..I knew my wifes feelings about my desires to dress she was not thrilled with it at all..I could only imagine if I was to have had a bag of goodies hidden away some where for her to stumble into.. There seems to be an important piece of this everyone keeps over looking.. That piece is you wife has rights to accept or not to accept ,,it is her call and you or anyone else for that will never change that..

If you feel woman enough to slip into the goodies you hide then you must be prepared to except the risk or price you pay when you get caught.. What I am trying to get across to you is...Your dressing does damage to you in your wifes eyes she can only take so much ,the breast forms and wigs tilted her over board. It isn't just about you in a marriage or relationship and as most may not see dressing no matter how often,or how far you take it is harmless it may not be the same for your partner..

I think several things here you did wasn't a good thing to do. Fist knowing full well how you wife felt about your desiers you still against her wishes acted on them, that hurt her...You broke in my opinion a trust issue by hidding this from her ,if this was something you really needed to do you should have consulted her in a way that wouldn't have pushed it into the attic , by telling her you have the goodies.. If you had been in the open and said these desires are to strong and ifyou can not accept it the end result could have been different she would have felt more involved, even if a short seperation was needed..

Crossdressers seem to forget how some S,O,s feel about dressing and we make it worse by hidding it..Lets not forget if we are trying to sell this as part of us something we can not help from doing you have to be open to those it effects..By hidding it makes you S.O. think you are hidding other things as well ..Things like just how far are you going to take this?

Best of luck Lisa

Sara Jessica

12-12-2008, 09:36 AM

sallyjones

12-12-2008, 11:18 AM

i know that this is part of all of us, or we wouldnt be on this site. it is not something we can change. i hope this gets worked out for you.

Intertwined

12-12-2008, 12:39 PM

im a jack/jill of all trades and can build you a house while wearing a skirt and 4 inch heels,,,

You ARE hurting someone when you lie and deceive them!! Marriage is now, and always has been, a two way street. Or better stated, a two person situation. Honest and open communication must always be the way to handle things. And that means from the very beginning, BEFORE the marriage.

Obsessedwithpanyhose, You go girl, im also a jack/jill of all trades, expert at only one(my current job, enough said)

Sissytephanie is exactly right, words, lies, can hurt as much as fists can. For my wife, its a trust issue. But, its also hard for us to be honest and upfront about something, when they do not want to hear us talk about it (keep it to yourself), and then they find out about it, and get upset about it because they didn't know. Whats that phrase? "damned if you do, damned if you don't"

valenstein

12-12-2008, 02:26 PM

What we have here are men who want to presnt as women. Men who want to secretly be women? Men who are confused and can't even explain why they obsess about this matter. Men who can't explain why they can't find pleasing men clothes to express themselves. Heck what is it that we have here anyway????? I can't even wrap my mind around it because I have never had a single thought about being anything other than a girl nor dressing as such nor acting as such because I am a genetic girl. I can't even relate to such feelings.

This is the first problem. We don't understand it period.

For most women, feminine men are not sexually attractive. Put a feminine man in a dress and 3 in heals and you might as well forget any sexual attraction unless you are bi-sexual or gay.

- I don't know why I am this way, it is not easy to explain a topic you don't understand. For many years I figured it was just a little kink I had, and eventually it would get pushed out of my mind. I had tried to tell my SO early on in our relationship, but it didn't go well, so I buried it and forgot about it. It burst out of me like a volcano without warning a few years ago, and I knew I had to tell her, and I did. It took me finding someone who I knew would accept all of my personality traits to bring it back to the surface.

A few years ago, my gf painted my toenails one day on a whim, it woke up something in me I found nice. Why can't I find pleasing men's clothes? I do, even those clothes society isn't satisfied. I loved watching Wonder Woman as a kid and have a men's shirt with Wonder Woman on it. One time a woman asked me if my gf minded that I was wearing a Wonder Woman shirt, it hurt just a little. I had a pair of purple Doc Martens I thought were really cool, my Grandfather remarked that "gay guys like purple". As a kid, sexuality and gender never entered my mind when I liked playing with my sister's Barbie dolls as much as I liked playing with my Hot Wheels. Neither were a factor the very first time I crossdressed, I was 8 and put on an old blouse I found in a closet. I liked the way it looked, it was different. I did know I wasn't supposed to wear it, but I did not know why. What is acceptable? I am fine being a guy who likes things associated with women, but that's not tolerated by society.

Things are ingrained into males that have no real basis in gender, it is society. From a young age we are taught that crying and showing emotion is a weakness, and to never show it, that everyone is your adversary and you need to do what is necessary to get ahead. Being social with your friends means making fun of them and never talking about how you feel. My parents taught me the opposite, but it was apparent in nearly every boy I knew. How does one go through life being a volcano? Keeping that stuff in when puberty hits and all you think about is sex and aggression? I watched guys slam kids heads into walls just because it would make them look like a "real man" to their friends. If I dropped a ball during P.E. and the other team won, I got punched. I would stand between a bully and one of my friends if they were threatened, even if I knew I would get my butt kicked. I care for my animals and have never even THOUGHT of raising my hand to a woman, much less doing it. I feel like more of a real man than most guys I know, even when I'm wearing lipstick.

I've only met two gay guys that were attracted to me in a dress, and I know a lot of gay guys. Most gay men I know are attracted to the same guys women are, or they go for the uber male type.

I should have told my girlfirend sooner, but I didn't know what was in me. I didn't have the answers and I couldn't explain it. I do know that if I feel ashamed by it, it recesses into me and I can't talk about it. I poured out everything that was in my heart the night I told her, if she had rejected me, I would have died inside.

I don't feel like I was lying by not telling her before. I do feel it was a mental failure on my part in my inability to deal with it, to understand it, to explain it. I was hiding it, maybe I was being dishonest, but I was far more dishonest with myself than I was with her. I didn't know how to tell the truth until I knew what it was.

linnea

12-12-2008, 02:53 PM

So it's their fault?? hahaha That's a great statement... They didn't sign up for this knowingly so I wouldn't blame any of them including my wife who found out almost the same way for diviorcing them, us... me... in a heartbeat....

Yes, I agree with Karren. However, I think that it is possible to work through these shocking revelations when they happen. I have not done it; I'm too chicken to bring it up myself (though I have made some tiny progress toward telling my daughter and another relative). If and when I tell or I'm caught, I hope that my SO will have the patience and willingness to deal with it.
I don't believe that CDs are sick or perverse, but some--like me--have lived deceitfully, and as has been said on this forum many times, the deceit is often the WORST of the situation with our spouses or SO's.
I hope and pray for every secret CD that their relations will endure and prevail over the negatives involved in hiding their other -selves.

kimberlyt221

12-12-2008, 02:56 PM

And that is an important thing to remember especially for those who entered into a relationship before the widespread use of the internet, basically any time before the turn of the century. Almost all CDs were completely isolated and unable to understand their own feelings and thought themselves the worst freaks alive. To condemn anyone who found themselves in such a predicament is to be devoid of understanding and empathy.

Similarly when you know that others will almost certainly consider you a freak and hate you for being so, exactly what about that is going to encourage you to open up? It is only human to avoid the pain such prejudices bring.

How many people would so readily condemn a woman who decided not to reveal her childhood abuse? All CDs are victims of society's intolerance which leads to self loathing and guilt. While we should overcome these feelings ourselves, a little compassion from others would not go amiss.

Just what I was thinking! When I brought it up to my SO, it took me 20 minutes just to start talking. I still feel a deep rooted shame, and horrible embarrasment. I'm still pretty much in the closet, but she knows I've done it in the past. It's not fun here, and I rarely dress anymore. But I THINK about it constantly!
I guess it's not going to be as easy to give up as I was hoping

billie earls

12-12-2008, 03:03 PM

There are so many different issues in this thread as there are CD's. If we look at the trust issue only we are are looking at is this something that must be told at the time of dating, but those of us who are older and have been dong this for eons it was not something we could talk about, there wasn't the internet and sites like this that could help us in so many ways. I've been married over 30 years and I would never tell my wife because it would hurt her and my kids, and they are the most important things to me. I have never known a CD so I never had anyone to talk to, I keep my feminine items well hidden and only take them out when its safe. After doing it for over 50 years I think I know how to do it. At times I was really tempted to do it but sanity over came me and for that I'm glad.
Would I like to have a relationship with someone in my feminine attire, yes I would but there is just something inside me that will not let me do it. Maybe someday but for now its the closet and the web site.

Tess

12-12-2008, 04:30 PM

Jennifer Cox

12-12-2008, 05:01 PM

:boo:

You're right, Sheila. The situation reminded me of my own and I let my anger rise to the surface. My apologies to all, especially to Lisa's wife. The comment was not directed at you, but rather to my ex. :sad:

It surprised me too - until I realised that you probably could just have easily been referring to my wife :sad: It was very perceptive but unfortunately inappropriate, as you've graciously admitted.

I'd also like to add that I think this has been an excellent thread, with some very good comments - just such a shame that the outcome's not been a happier one! :sad:

Cassia-Marie

12-12-2008, 05:02 PM

This is the first problem. We don't understand it period.

So much in this thread hits so close to home for me. Understanding something like this for either side is so extremely difficult. I'm amazed at the open, honest, and loving relationships that some of you have with your wives (and pretty jealous, too). Like Ivy, I've always thought it was just a kink or a simple fetish - something that I could drop at any time. I'm reaching my late 30's (okay, to be honest, I'm 39 today :eek:) and after almost 40 years, a failed marriage, and another I've lovingly been in for the past 10 years, I can look back at my life and realize I've been lying to myself and everyone around me. That alone is tough to come to terms with. How does one undo 40 years of deceit? How does one even begin to live their life seemingly all over again after such a time?

There's a lot of research I've studied recently about gender dysphoria and the affect it can have on an individual and their relationships. Most people (like myself) who haven't come to grips with it until their middle-age years experience Depression and/or Generalized Anxiety Disorder. They have panic attacks, irritability, sleeping disorder, inability to concentrate, impulsiveness, weight loss, and their job performance suffers. OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) is also prevalent and is probably a result of needing an outlet for their gender expression deprivation anxiety. Suicidal thoughts or other such strong impulses ultimately loom and cloud out any and all rational thought.

All of this hits at a time when family and career are as firmly rooted as they are ever going to be. Thoughts of starting over as a member of the opposite sex become seemingly impossible. The responsibilities we've accumulated make us feel entrapped and enslaved to an ideal we've come to despise.

I'm not asserting that the need to crossdress is a mental illness. I do believe, for me anyway, that the debilitating disorders I listed above (and from which I have suffered) are a direct result of or, at the very least, exacerbated by my and society's efforts to impose an aesthetic and behavioral set that, for whatever reason, every fiber of my being opposes. I can't really explain why I enjoy dressing and behaving like a woman or why it has hit me recently like several tons of bricks after 8 years of thinking I'd "outgrown" it - it just is what it is. What I can do, though, is recognize the desire and do what I can to live with it. The alternative is to go the other way and ultimately destroy myself and risk seriously hurting others.

I've gotten help for the symptoms (anti-depressants) but the underlying cause is still there and, unfortunately for me, must remain there for all intents and purposes. For me, the reason I continue to lie is, ironically, because I'm basically a kind, gentle, and compassionate human being and, society being the way it is, telling the truth would almost certainly destroy my life and the lives of many of those around me. I simply cannot and will not subject myself, friends, and family to the criticism and ridicule that would incur. So I continue to lie. The status quo is simply too valuable right now to do otherwise.

So after this long reply, I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to cut those that feel the need to lie a little slack. No, a LOT of slack. If we're doing the best we can with what we have, then back off and let us keep trying. In fact, a little help would be appreciated. I can almost certainly guarantee that you'll get even more in return than you put into it.

Satrana

12-13-2008, 04:07 AM

What we have here are men who want to presnt as women. Men who want to secretly be women? Go back a few decades and the same questions would have been asked of women who wanted to be CEOs, adventurers, politicians, soldiers etc

Men who can't explain why they can't find pleasing men clothes to express themselves. So why didn't women just stick to female clothes?

I can't even wrap my mind around it because I have never had a single thought about being anything other than a girl nor dressing as such nor acting as such because I am a genetic girl. I can't even relate to such feelings. Therein lies the problem. Not being able to relate to being stuck in a rigid gender role because you yourself have lived in a period where women's gender roles have quickly evolved allowing access to everything once considered to be only masculine.

CDs are the first men - alongside gays to some extent - to challenge the male gender definition. This makes us the equivalent of the suffragettes in that we are challenging something which mainstream society does not believe needs to be changed.

Second there is a little matter of sexual attraction and it has nothing to do with and "ingrained social prejudice". For most women, feminine men are not sexually attractive. Sorry you are wrong, the characteristics deemed to be attractive in the opposite gender changes from culture to culture. Indeed if you had lived 200 years ago in high society you would have found men plastered in make-up, wigs, lace and frills, tights and high heels very attractive.

And if tomorrow men were allowed to freely dress in female clothes then future generations of women will find men in LBDs very sexy too.

The fact that many women today do not like feminine men is largely the product of our society, hence it is an ingrained social prejudice since it results in men having to stick to the narrow male gender role in order to be found attractive to women.

The issue at the heart of present day CD relationships is how able or willing is the woman to overcome and re-orientate her mind to accept and be attracted to feminine men while the rest of society is unaware and unaccepting of feminine men. It means women have to be prepared to move to the fringe of society and face the same prejudices aimed at CDs. It takes strength and devotion to agree to do this especially with the lack of information and support that has plagued the CD community.

Why is it that a lot of us gg's have the same complaints?? I find that sort of curious. On the other hand a lot of CDs have the same complaints about GGs. We have two groups who are unable to meet on common ground.

kittypw GG

12-13-2008, 07:52 AM

Satrana,
Go right ahead and balme everything under the sun. Is it getting you anywhere with gg's? Is it stopping divorce?

The bottom line is that we all have to answer to our own behavior. If you behave in a way that is unplesant (lie, sneek around, act obsessively, spend money selfishly out of the family budget, take yourself out of activities with the family to crossdress, blame "your" partner for "your" short commings, wallow in self pity, indulge in fantasy/pronography instead of spending time with real people or "your" family, continually push established boundries, stop intimacy/sexual relations, replace the man in "your" partners life completly with a faux female, especially outside of "your" partners comfort zone, etc) you are going to have a roller coaster life and it should not be a surprise when the important people in "your" life distance themselves from "you" and the important relationships in "your" life fail.

Kitty

Bethany_Anne_Fae

12-13-2008, 08:16 AM

Crossdressing is NOT an imperfection, nor is it anything to be ashamed of.
I bought into this for many years until I became healthy enough to know that I deserved better. I know now that I deserve to be loved simply for who I am.
I sincerely hope your separation process will continue to be amicable. In my experience, this is very rare.

Reine, I really liked what you wrote here.

Since I havent figured out yet how to add other comments, I can't add the ones I liked from KittypawGG as well. Some very valid poitns all around.

Its sad to see a relationship come apart after so long. Reading everything it seems like it has had a slow burning at the edges feel for most of it until the last flame ignited the rest.

I hope the two of you can remain friends and somewhat happy in the days ahead.

*hugs of support for you both*

Zarabeth

Nicki B

12-13-2008, 08:52 AM

deja true

12-13-2008, 09:14 AM

Kitty, I DO understand your rage - but aren't you really talking about your old relationship, here?

Lordy, yes!

kitty's accusations all grow out of the horrifc drama that we know her story to have been...

But reading the scores of other folks' stories here, especially including those from the more tolerant and accepting wives and SO's, gives balance to her apparent point of view that all cd's are moral degenerates...

And many of her opinions regarding the likes and dislikes and capabilities of women to understand our behaviour are just wrong!

We sympathize with kitty's plight, and she does make some good points, but they definitely do not apply to all of us or our lovers!

(fingers in ears now...singing "la-la-la" real loud...)

curse within

12-13-2008, 11:55 AM

Why is most everyone so down on Kitty?? I would think she, just as many of the other GG's in this forum could help Lisa even if it may, to some of you come across mean!!!

Most of the down talk from some of you Crossdressers!! Are from personal opinions, Kitty has lived in Lisa's spouses shoes ..She has been there!! She has lived through a progressive only wearing panties to a full blown 24/7 want to be a full female husband..One who has broke many trust and boundry lines!!

Kitty answered Lisa's thread by telling her to straighten up and yes from her own experiance.. Lisa posted "The down side of crossdressing" What part of that are some you not getting? Lisa's wife does not accept her dressing and has stumbled upon things in the attic that should have never been there.. Now facing a possiable divorce..Kittys advise was to make sure to kiss some butt!!

Very few GG's accept what we do VERY FEW!! Kitty was one of those very few but within reasonable limits she accepted her spouse ..Just as I am sure Lisa's wife is accepting her..So what some of you may see as a putting HER past to a mute point...Others who have been there see someone showing some " HEY STRAIGHTEN UP BECAUSE THE AXE IS FALLING"!!

Tess

12-13-2008, 12:10 PM

[QUOTE=deja true;1529788]We sympathize with kitty's plight, and she does make some good points, but they definitely do not apply to all of us or our lovers!
QUOTE]

Maybe not all, but perhaps a lot more than some of us like to admit.

KellyCD

12-13-2008, 07:10 PM

Lordy, yes!

kitty's accusations all grow out of the horrifc drama that we know her story to have been...
....... her apparent point of view that all cd's are moral degenerates...

I really feel sorry about what she has been through, I really do.

But her posts get me so incredibly angry that I cannot see straight. I admit that a few of her posts have almost made me reply with some *ahem* colorful words but I realize that would not be the best choice. Just reading her posts in this thread have filled my with a rage that I have only experienced elsewhere in combat.

But, I realize that she doesn't deserve me rage so I hold my tongue. Her hypocritical statements are mostly what angers me so much.

Nicki B

12-13-2008, 08:20 PM

The trouble is, it's hard to see other people's stories without the lens of our own experience colouring things - for any of us?

That's very often a problem on internet boards - people read what they expect to, not always what is written (or even meant)? Those can be three totally separate 'truths'.. :sad:

lisa_vin

12-15-2008, 08:43 PM

Hi again everybody! This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own and it has certainly touched and resonated with many and in many different ways! I truly WANTED to hear all your responses.......your stories, advice, criticism, success and heartbreak that comes from what most people see as anything from the lowest sexually deviant degenerate to an interesting person with "enhanced and pleasantly varied" personality traits. Granted, a vast majority veer toward the former rather than the latter and that is completely understandable for such a misunderstood and often misrepresented and misreported "condition". It wasn't until pretty recently that the heterosexual mtf CD began to be seen as usually a good person of good morals and behavior with a more developed and enhanced capability for understanding, compassion, warmth and care much more in tune with female traits that non-cd males! I've seen two therapists over the years, both of them GG's, who fought long and hard to convince me that is what I was. Both of them actually deemed me to be "normal" but with the ADVANTAGE......as they actually called it.......of enhanced and varied interests over non-cd'ing males. I know that's what they are trained to do......to help people out of bad places and rebuilding image and ego are two of the most important functions they perform towards healing and they succeeeded in doing that with me!

In short, thay convinced me to stop feeling bad about myself, to stop being ashamed and feeling humiliation for what I was doing and to ACCEPT myself for who I was and that the "total" me includes the Lisa part of me. To suppress or deny my Lisa side would only serve to depress and break down one person all the way to the bitter end.....ME! They knew that I hid this from my wife and both prepared and advised me of the potential consequences of her finding out......especially after keeping it a secret from her for years and even before our marriage. They said the chances of even minimal acceptance were very low and to truly expect the worst but hope for the best if that ever happened. (The second therapist was the one my wife and I saw TOGETHER for an extended period over this past spring and summer. She's the one I mentioned previously that provided only a temporary band-aid for a gaping wound but, to my wife's credit, she had tried to deal with it with her help but only fell back into the "push it out of mind, forget about it and maybe it will go away" state. That last "discovery" only served as the final cold slap of reality that it is just not going to happen with me.

I only get to fully dress on the very rare occasion that I have free time to myself. I don't make or set aside time for this nor do I force changes of plans or "special times" or trips for myself that take away time from my wife or daughter. I only take advantage of it when it occurs and only at home behind closed doors. I don't ask for nor do I want or expect my wife's participation in this at all. I don't want to "go out" or "see if I can pass" nor do I want to BE a woman. I don't want real breasts or any alterations of any kind......only the "illusion" of being able to look and feel like a woman sometimes.......I like the good, warm, calm, nice, peaceful and content feeling I have when dressed......heck, there's not even any sedative or alcohol necessary to achieve this state and none needed or ever taken! I'm actually pretty happy, generally, with being a man that only wants to feel what I can only assume is "like a woman" when I can. I can happily achieve the majority of this state by just underdressing and no one needs to be the wiser. ALL I EVER wanted from my wife was just her TRYING to understand and get education on this and having the blessing of her tolerance of this side of me. I'm a happy homebody.....I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, golf, bowl, bar or club-hop, hang with the guys (or ever even care to) or anyone else for that matter, don't abuse, talk or treat anyone badly EVER and never have. I've never had an affair or attempted one......never even had sex with anyone else other than my wife........she's my one and only for all 54 years of my life! My ONLY vice besides my betrayal of my wife's trust and lying to her of my cd'ing IS my cd'ing itself. I'm no saint but I'm also no sexual deviant or a bad guy either.....this is who I am and I am truly sorry to have hurt anyone, especially my wife, by trying to keep this a secret from her!

Kitty, I didn't know your story before but spent time this afternoon reading your threads and posts about what happened and what you've had to endure and go through and there are only 3 words in the entire English language that I can express for how I feel......I'm TRULY sorry! I read each thread you started and watched your story unfold right there in front of me and really, truly felt your pain, anguish and horror as each chapter unfolded! God, I wouldn't wish this experience on the worst person on earth but I know it's happened before and it will happen again. I read how you truly TRIED, with everything you had, to make it work and keep it together and it ultimately ended anyway. But, from what I could surmise, your ex was fading and long gone before your tried extraordinary methods to save the marriage. It sounds like cd'ing was only a symptom of a much deeper disturbance and detachment in him rather than a single cause or reason for his behavior. You did the best you could to try and save what was already a lost cause long before much of the real ugliness even started. Sometimes, you can only do what you can physically and mentally do and hope for the best but prepare for the worst. It sounds like you survived all this and are starting to move on pretty dang good. Please don't let posts or threads like this take you back to that deep, dark and painful place you evolved from. There's billions of people in this world and thousand to millions of relationships beginning and ending as I speak. Since no two people in this world are alike and as long as that remains a fact there will never be any element of perfection in humanity nor will the perfect relationship ever exist. Every single one of us has a closet with a skeleton or two in it that we don't want ANYONE to ever see or find out about so we all keep that key to it so close to our chest!

Jennifer Cox

12-17-2008, 02:47 PM

So much in this thread hits so close to home for me...

There's a lot of research I've studied recently about gender dysphoria and the affect it can have on an individual and their relationships. Most people (like myself) who haven't come to grips with it until their middle-age years experience Depression and/or Generalized Anxiety Disorder. They have panic attacks, irritability, sleeping disorder, inability to concentrate, impulsiveness, weight loss, and their job performance suffers. OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) is also prevalent and is probably a result of needing an outlet for their gender expression deprivation anxiety. Suicidal thoughts or other such strong impulses ultimately loom and cloud out any and all rational thought.

All of this hits at a time when family and career are as firmly rooted as they are ever going to be. Thoughts of starting over as a member of the opposite sex become seemingly impossible. The responsibilities we've accumulated make us feel entrapped and enslaved to an ideal we've come to despise.

I tick quite a lot of those boxes, so I know what you're going through. May help explain some of the other issues I've got too!

For me, it's recently got so bad that I've had to explain it to my wife - wrote her a letter - although I don't think she yet fully appreciates the implications. Although she's known about my desire to CD for 30+ years, she's very much of the "turn a blind eye" approach, and I for my part have hidden it as much as possible to spare her feelings.

All I can suggest is that if you feel that bad, you should really tell her.

Satrana

12-17-2008, 04:48 PM

Both of them actually deemed me to be "normal" but with the ADVANTAGE......as they actually called it.......of enhanced and varied interests over non-cd'ing males. I know that's what they are trained to do......to help people out of bad places and rebuilding image and ego are two of the most important functions they perform towards healing and they succeeded in doing that with me!

I think that is a bit unfair. Therapists would never say such a thing if they thought the behavior was in any way immoral or destructive. I believe they were being genuine in their advice that you are indeed normal.

The issue truly is the prejudice that prevents men from expressing any form of femininity. This is nonsensical considering what has happened in recent decades with GGs venturing into masculine roles and behaviors. The therapists were just telling you something which you refused to admit to yourself because people who are subjected to intolerance internalize their shame and feel guilty when others' prejudices are subsequently exposed resulting in anger and confusion aimed towards you.

Even in the most obvious of cases such as spousal abuse, battered women turn up at shelters invariably feeling that they are to blame for what has happened to them. It takes a lot of counciling to convince them otherwise and to stop them making excuses for their spouse's behavior.

Beth-Lock

12-17-2008, 09:46 PM

Kittypw well expresses the real, raw view of nearly all women That is why I am basically in the process of rejecting close friendships with all women now. It just does not work.
As for lying about your real nature and background, because women are judged by what they are and men by what they do, it is in my experience, a GG flaw much more than a male flaw to lie. The lies and lying omissions run from , not telling everything in their background, from little things like use of false teeth, though religion or ethnicity, on to major problem areas in their background. I have learned this the hard way by personal experience. So concealing or lying about one's personal details, even important ones, is something that there is much more incentive for women to do, in reality, and life being what it is, they do. And this does not even get into the specific sexual problems gg's may simply not mention, until they become issues in the bedroom. The sex advice programs on the television are full of examples of those.
So lack of strict honesty is simply a part of the human condition especially as it relates to friendship and courtship. That is why short premarital relationships and engagements, (shorter than five plus years), always used to be advised against in grandmother's time. Today's generation of course think they known better.

KellyCD

12-17-2008, 10:33 PM

Kittypw well expresses the real, raw view of nearly all women That is why I am basically in the process of rejecting close friendships with all women now. It just does not work.

I respectfully disagree. She DOES NOT express the view of "nearly all women". Not half, not most, not even some. She expresses the view of women who have been wrongfully hurt by people of the TG community and her view (in my opinion) of us is now tarnished. We're all liars that "secretly want to be women".

It's sad.

PetiteTonya

12-18-2008, 12:00 AM

you know what? Secrecy and deception doesn't help Lisa and his wife either. Any marriage that is based on lies and deception is doomed to fail. Lisa should be happy that it lasted so long. But I will say again, who gives back Lisa's wife all the time she invested in the future she thought she was getting? I'll bet you she did not fantasize about two old women rocking on the porch together. I'll bet you, Lisa lead her to belive that she would have a very different future after the kids were grown!

I don't give a crap what it was like in the 70"s. Hey I graduated in 1977. People were just as honest with eachother maybe more than now. That is a damn cop out.

When you cd's don't trust enough to tell the truth about yourselves and you find out that you loose trust in the very people you say you love.... well all I have to say is DUH.........................................

Lisa should get down on his knees and beg his wife for forgiveness and offer some solutions to work it out. If you are fresh out of ideas, well I guess that it really is not worth either partners time.

Just my opionion. Lots of relationships should end way before they actual do anyway. If more people had the guts to just be honest (and I mean on both sides of the fence) Maybe there would be more happy people on this planet.

Kitty

Gee, it must be nice to be able to claim the high exclusively for yourself. I won't speak for anyone else here, but I wish I was so perfect as to be able to be so pious and self righteous. It must be wonderful to sleep so soundly at night, knowing you've never lied to your SO about anything or done anything that was hurtful.

These two people have been married for 30 years. As I read Lisa's remarks, it's clear to me that there were other issues that also contributed to this rather sad and unfortunate situation. Lisa even tried for a time to bury herself and be the "real man" her SO supposedly married. I have issues with those two words, "real man" but that's for another thread.

Personally, inflammatory remarks such as this above only serve to underscore the need for a forum like this for people like us. Repressed anger, vitriolic rhetoric as evidenced up here only fan the flames of intolerence and do nothing to add value to anyone.

Putting things in perspective, it seems to me that if, after sharing her secret with her SO, they both sought solutions through therapy and when that didn't help, Lisa did what she could. She kept her life up in an attic in order to not upset her SO. She did what a person in love does...she hid it away. We're calling this lying? What about wifes, husbands who have affairs and never divulge it just to name one example.

I've spent the last 6 months reading as much as I can about what has happened to me and what effect it has on SO's. I have alot more to learn but we pride ourselves here in Western Society to be tolerant and accepting, yet Homophobics, racists and hate mongers are all around us.

Remarks like these, only serve to entrench the status quo.

A very wise person who has been a CD for over 30 years met with me two weeks ago. This person gave me what I consider to be the best piece of advice I have yet to recieve. To quote "Do not engage in self pity. Celebrate who you are and try your best to integrate"

I wish you and your SO nothing but the best Lisa...and I hope your medical issues improve.

PS. I would continue to stand as tall as you can. I see no need for you to get down on your knees at all dear

curse within

12-18-2008, 12:38 AM

I still don't get it.....I'm sorry folks try to have an open mind and not take things so personal..Situation... Lisa's wife does not approve of Lisa desires to dress right? We all agree to that?

I lived through over 20 years of an un accepting wife ,for my desires even as small as they were! I kept my stuff ( like Lisa did ) hidden, I used them in my private time alone and not often.. I loved my wife dearly and would never do purposely anything to hurt her except dressing.. Why because as hard as I tried and as much as I fought it off, dressing would win.. Even though she didn't see me doing it and never found my stash, she knew!!

So I have found myself trying to keep a balance of my wifes happiness and me indulging in stupid clothing.. My point stupid clothing!! That is how Lisa's wife see's it, don't get me wrong I totally relate to Lisa .. It must have been pure hell going through the constant mind battles she has been going through keeping the balance of her desires and keeping the wifey happy.

Lisa come clean with the wife!!! Lay it out on the table , tell her this is you , tell her you love her but this is something that doesn't go away and for her to remain with you she has to understand crossdressing..Marraiges can co exist with crossdressing but it takes two. If she can not accept it why go on being unhappy? You know it will never go away but you can control it, tell her you don't do it to hurt, lie or decieve her. Tell her you don't want to see her unhappy with you over something she doesn't understand!!

Keep in mind Lisa this is something you can not force her to accept, this is something she has to take upon herself to explore.. Just remember she has feelings to she hasn't been forced to live with these nagging desires her whole life ,try to compare it to something she enjoys something that no matter how hard she tries to stay away from she returns to it..Like eating for most of us but I am sure something is there for you to use..Something she could get an ideal that wow that is pretty nagging I can understand ..

Melanie R

12-18-2008, 01:18 AM

Lisa,

How long have you been in the Houston area? As one of the original founders of the Houston TG community I know we have some great resources here for our community including the local Tri-Ess chapter and the TG Center. There are several therapists in Houston such as Denise O'Doherty who have had many years of experience working with many transgendered persons and their SO's. Lets talk soon.

Hugs,

Melanie

Beth-Lock

12-20-2008, 12:55 AM

I respectfully disagree. She DOES NOT express the view of "nearly all women". Not half, not most, not even some. She expresses the view of women who have been wrongfully hurt by people of the TG community and her view (in my opinion) of us is now tarnished. We're all liars that "secretly want to be women".

It's sad.

I guess that sort of applies to my position too, having been hurt recently by the lies of women.

emmicd

12-20-2008, 03:08 AM

I know it is very important to be honest in a relationship with someone you love and care for. It also is sometimes hard being honest all of the time when it comes to some things such as crossdressing. It is something that is very hard to talk about especially if you are afraid of the potential consequences. To me crossdressing is very painful as much as it is fun. It is a very isolating activity and provides no real benefit other than to make you feel more at ease with yourself which in my mind is a benefit but to others who don't understand it seems foreign and threatening.

I believe you need to give you wife space and try to work through it. If she really cares for you and knows your love for her she may come around. It's hard to know sometimes and women just don't seem to understand how painful it is to be a crossdresser. I find it a very lonely and sad existence sometimes but I still need to crossdress because I feel happier in dresses.

I hope you and your wife can work through it and I wish you both the best!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Good Luck to you both also!

emmi

KellyCD

12-20-2008, 10:42 AM

I guess that sort of applies to my position too, having been hurt recently by the lies of women.

I have too, SOOO many times. It's hard not to paint every woman with the same brush(is that the phrase?) but I realize that not EVERY woman out there is a liar.(but apparently I'm "lucky" enough to meet alot of them)

Just this year having to deal with my wife cheating on me (a total of 7 times) of which her excuse/reason was "you weren't supposed to find out":Angry3: and all her friends "justified" her by saying "If she's coming home to you, what's the problem?":angry: WTF?

Grrrr I don't even want to talk about that stuff anymore.....

Elizabeth2-

12-20-2008, 11:04 AM

I am weeping with you now. I weep because whether in drab or drag, I see me in the mirror. Anyone that does not understand that does not understand crossdressing. You, like many of us, finally decided to be truthful to ourselves and our SO's. And, often that release brings pain.

Stopping the acknowlegment of our real selves is about as realistic as amputating our legs and then being expected to be a professional runner.

We should love because we choose to love unconditionally. That goes for SO's, too.

You do not need to be "fixed". Your genetic code and brain hormonal levels are you.

It is those with ignorance, hate and bigotry that need to be "fixed" including your wife that you have loved and served faithfully for thirty years!

My love and prayers are with you.

Liz

lisa_vin

12-22-2008, 06:14 PM

Hi everyone!

Thank each and every single one of you reading this and for your thoughtful and heartfelt responses. Your support and advice is so very welcome and so is the criticism and any negative feelings. One thing about opinions.......everybody has one and by expressing them, that allows your human individuality to shine through. This is a subject that touches each of us in one way or another whether you are TG or GG!!!!!!

I don't know where my road leads from here.....things have actually been rather pleasant and friendly between us the last few days and one can only hope it stays that way. I guess Christmas approaching may have something to do with that too and that's just fine with me. The more tranquility and peace, the less stress, anxiety and unhappiness. I figure that once New Year's Day passes, focus will probably get re-trained and what to do and where to go for the future but, for now, I'm enjoying the relative calm and friendliness.

If I don't get to talk to y'all again until after the holidays,I wish everybody a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!!

:hugs::love:

Nicki B

12-22-2008, 06:58 PM

Gee, it must be nice to be able to claim the high exclusively for yourself. I won't speak for anyone else here, but I wish I was so perfect as to be able to be so pious and self righteous. It must be wonderful to sleep so soundly at night, knowing you've never lied to your SO about anything or done anything that was hurtful.

Tonya, you're new here, so you're not familiar with the path that Kitty has trod and what she's endured. Perhaps before you say any more, you should look back over the previous threads she's started, here?

I am weeping with you now. I weep because whether in drab or drag, I see me in the mirror. Anyone that does not understand that does not understand crossdressing.

Elizabeth, I'm quite sure we have all been where you are. Trust me, you can get to where you want to be - don't give up, keep trying - it takes time and practice.

DanaR

12-22-2008, 07:24 PM

Crossdressing is NOT an imperfection, nor is it anything to be ashamed of. It also does not define you. It is only one of many other aspects of the wonderful person that you are. :hugs:

In my opinion, a spouse's ability to accept others for who they are is intrinsic. It has less to do with their partner's characteristics and whether or not they fit into what is perceived to be "normal" than having an extremely narrow-minded and self-centered view of the world. No doubt your wife is just as priggish when placing judgments on other people, and she will ultimately only harm herself as she is narrowing her own experiences.

I sincerely hope your separation process will continue to be amicable. In my experience, this is very rare.

I agree! What I've always wondered, is where is the love or compromise in some of these relationships? There sounds, to me at least, like issues of control (and maybe abuse); if you don't stop doing this I'm going to (insert whatever you would like here).

Most people just can't live that way, at least not until the cycle repeats its self.

Jacqui

12-22-2008, 09:51 PM

It took me a long time to get to post # 102. And I have to admit, I'm kind of drained.

Knowing that I was getting close to the end and hoping, like with a good book or Hollywood movie, there would be a happy ending (not that kind!), I was glad to read Lisa's #99 post.

This thread has really hit many of the core issues that we, in this forum, face. I would like to expound, but I'm burnt out.

Lisa, with regard to your new living arrangement, it brought to mind some lines from "The Prophet" by Kahill Gibran:

"But let there be spaces in your togetherness and let the winds of the heavens dance between you. Love one another but make not a bond of love: let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls."

I wish you the best for yourself, your wife, and your daughter.

Love,
Jacqui

darla_g

12-22-2008, 10:57 PM

The only conclusion i have come to over this is that there will be women who will accept crossdressing and those that will not.

and there is also a possibility that someone who accepts it may decide to change their opinion or conversely someone may learn to accept it.

JoAnne Wheeler

12-26-2008, 03:42 PM

Went through the same thing - had my Great Purge of 95 - then the Pink Fog settled back in about 16 months ago. My spouse was not very happy about this UNTIL she saw and realized what effect this was having on me both physically and mentally - deep depression, anxiety, irritability, suicidal thoughts, etc. Once she realized that I could no longer live without this aspect of my life, she has come to accept and love me. Of course, I've had to do the same thing - I finally stopped fighting and accepted myself for who I am and will always be.
JoAnne Wheeler

tommi

12-26-2008, 04:06 PM

I have been seeing a therapist since my wife found a picture of myself on my cellphone last new years "get therapy or get out" soon followed.
It isn't easy and goodluck hopefully what ever happens it will be for the best.

marny

12-28-2008, 01:38 AM

Kne4 jerk rection. My wife kicked me out of bed when she hit menoppause. Came back to cd an never looked back

KarenS

12-30-2008, 03:37 PM

I am soooo sorry Lisa. My heart goes out to you.

I read in this post a lot of flaming opinions - yeah, I got mine too. I don't believe blame is appropriate.

Lisa is who she is.

If love was truely present for 30 years, with the memories, family gatherings, hurting, healing, sharing, living life together, how can we simply wad it up and toss it in the trash without attempting to reconcile? We need to fight for the important relationships. There are things about every SO that bothers the other. With love, we learn to adapt, tolerate, adjust, overcome, and forgive. In a marriage we ALL need to give, and take. Life in marriage is all compromise and nothing is constant except the need for adaptation.
Every morning I wake up, I have a chance to start over with the relatioinship I have with my wife. I have an opportunity to fix all the things I screwed up yesterday and last week. While it is true, everyday I typically fail again and again, that is part of what we choose to share as husband and wife. Remember the 'for better or for worse' part? The consoling, the sharing, the forgiving, the chance to be understood and yes, loved for who we are is part of sharing as husband and wife. That includes forgiveness of deceipt and issues of honesty. Sure, it would always be better to be up-front and honest from the start. But, it is what it is and arguing about how it got there 30 years ago is not as constructive a discussion as what to do about it now and - if it is so critical as to negate all the feelings shared over the years.

I've been married for 35 years. I know there are many that have been married longer. I'm not willing to throw away 35 years of my life and the life of my SO because we have a disagreement as to who is at fault in the past. We have shared too much over the years. The more critical issue is how to deal with it to the satisfaction of both - to reconcile to each other.

We all need our private time and space. We need to respect those things. If Lisa's SO chose to explore, peek, and pry in an area where a personnal boundary had been established, then maybe she decided her commitment simply couldn't be sustained under the circumstances. Maybe she was looking for a chance to draw the final line.

Sorry ladies. I fell up to that soap box didn't I.