Do they or don't they? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Ze xx

12-16-2008, 04:21 PM

There's good parts and there's not so good parts. What can I say? :strugglin and not all of us enjoy (or not) the same parts.

Personally you can take PMT, period cramps etc, other women don't have problems here. Although I'm a mother, I don't know what labour's like as I took 20 mins :D However, I'm not the maternal type and a lot of 'mum' stuff is hard work.

I have a male friend who is a gyneacologist. When I asked him why he chose that proffession (fully expecting to wind him up with the obvious teasing) his answer was that women's bodies are more interesting as they are more likely to go wrong!

There's other stuff too. Yes we have more choice of clothes in society, but that brings with it the angst of whether or not we're wearing the right thing. I think that women are under more pressure to look 'right' (yes I will concede that this view tends to come from other women, but that's not the point right now)

We are generally physically weaker (I know there are exceptions) We are generally lower paid, (again, exceptions, I know).

I think if you can pick and choose what parts of being a girl you wish to assimilate, then you don't get to see the bad side, and why would you?

And if I was a fish, getting dry would be fatal, so I'm sure you won't mind if I chose not to dry out!

Carly D.

12-16-2008, 05:45 PM

I like being as female as I can be.. but I'm not daft.. I know I'm not a woman.. I know how I feel when I am dressed up, and I know that women feel different than I do.. how would I feel if I were told I had to dress this way or that way?? actually for whatever the reason I think most cross dressers would like an open minded public to dress however we feel..

Anna the Dub

12-16-2008, 06:29 PM

My GG best friend told me that she absolutely loves being female, loves getting dressed up, etc., and that if she had been born male she reckons she would definitely be a crossdresser. She said this eventhough she has had some very difficult female problems in the past, some very serious, and has said that it can be very hard being a woman in todays society, with all the prejudices that are still prevalent in every walk of life. Personally, even knowing all the negative aspects of being female in todays world, I would jump at the chance in a heartbeat if it was possible. But I am aware that it is not all a bed of roses.

Tracey Corset

12-16-2008, 06:43 PM

I noticed that Jenny Beth has a little tag on her posts which says:
"You don't have to have been born female to enjoy being a girl ".

I wonder what you ladies think. Do GG's enjoy being a girl and much as we do?
My Kym definitily does, although not around the monthly cycle, we can all sympathise with that, she always looks fabulous and when i dress up sexy she does too,wow, is all i can say, and when i am able to spend the day dressed casual she still makes the effort to look nice casual too, she loves being a girl and loves me being one too

Sophie_C

12-16-2008, 08:44 PM

I noticed that Jenny Beth has a little tag on her posts which says:
"You don't have to have been born female to enjoy being a girl ".

I wonder what you ladies think. Do GG's enjoy being a girl and much as we do?

I get the impression this is completely an individual thing. Some do. Some don't. But, I do think it's fair to say that most CDs enjoy feminine activities more than girls (tg and gg), since for girls it's just matter-of-fact, and they don't get a kick out of it.

Girls just are what they are.

Not that anything is wrong with getting a kick out of it, but it's a radically different frame of reference.

marny

12-16-2008, 10:54 PM

every day i'm a girl is a thrill, and I am a girl about 8 days a week!

beenherelongtime

12-16-2008, 11:19 PM

i don't think they attach much thought to it. You see they are to the (MANNER BORN)

Alice Torn

12-16-2008, 11:40 PM

It appears, that some women do enjoy it, and getting dressed attractively, and many others, don't anymore. The grass is always greener on the other side. Many women don't like being looked on as sexual objects. Men don't like being looked on as success objects. I do see, and experience, that CD's seem to enjoy dressing to the nines more than most birthgirls.

sometimes_miss

12-17-2008, 12:08 AM

I think sometimes they enjoy it, and sometimes not. Like most other things in life. I like what I get to experience, the pretty things etc., but know that there's much more to a girl's life than we ever get to know. None of us got to grow up with a girl's experience, which isn't always what we think it would be like. Right now, I'm reading a lot of 'young adult' fiction, written from an adolescent female's point of view; it's not all easy, and it's not all pretty. We all dream of being beautiful, popular, being admired and desired. But that's not the universal experience. Friendships are harder for women to maintain; little things can 'rock the boat'. Guys kind of shake it off when we disagree about trivial stuff, women don't. One woman will hate another, for the only reason that the second is dating a guy the first one likes. We'd think it crazy; but they go through it all the time. Wacked out emotions, mood swings? You bet. Again, we don't experience it, so we don't know what it's like to try to make sense of the emotional roller coaster that hormone fluctuations cause. Yes, they try to control it, but that still takes effort. Sex, also, for example. For us, orgasm is pretty much a given. The worst sex we ever had was pretty good. Not so for a lot of women; most men believe that all sexual desires can be solved with the penis. women think those men are crazy, but they don't find out which ones they are until they're already in bed, and often in love, with the guy. Then what?? We don't have to live with the constant reminder that our bodies want to have children. We don't have a biological clock, and don't have to worry about our bodies sagging out of shape after a particularly young age. Many of us don't even think of physical safety; women have to think about it all the time. It goes on. I call it 'the grass is always greener' view. We always see the neighbor's yard as nicer than ours, without acknowledging all the trouble they have to go through to keep it that way. I know there are a lot of things about being male that make life easier; yet, I know there are particular problems in my life that are not solvable for that same reason. Sure, being female would take care of those problems, but would open up others that I don't currently have.

Women, I salute you. I know how hard your lives are, yet I often envy you at the same time, as I figure you sometimes envy us for how you see our lives.

Cari

12-17-2008, 01:35 AM

Do I enjoy this more than a GG ?
Why do I dress more femininely than most GG's ?
I dont think it is really a fair to compare.

If I took all my "girly time" and added it up; Im still like a teenage girl; learning my style and experimenting. Its still new and exciting to me. If I had spent my entire life as a woman I dont think Id be having this much fun for so many years.

I dont get to dress allot so its always a special occasion. When I get the opportunity to dress allot I get much more casual.

I get a more dramatic change from makeup and style than a GG. I also have that little thrill of being a "Gender outlaw". It keeps it more interesting.

I'm pretty rough and need lots of polishing, If I could look fem with a bit of mascara and a ponytail; I wouldn't spend nearly as much time on details. Adopting a more feminine style helps me pass.

Jenny Beth's wife is right I only get the fun parts and only when I feel like it.

I tried to turn it around and see it from the other side. I realized I don't really take advantage of all the benefits of what may be percieved as the fun parts of being a male all the time.

Cari

ReineD

12-17-2008, 02:15 AM

Oh yes we do! :D

Satrana

12-17-2008, 03:47 AM

The funny thing is that over the years I have come across many comments from GGs, usually the younger ones, who have never experienced traditional femininity. They have always been tomboys and so it is funny to hear them ask the same naive questions we do like how to wear make-up, how to walk in heels etc

But the interesting part is when they also comment that after dressing up they feel different from normal - they feel good about themselves, they enjoy feeling pretty etc. I feel that most GGs would in fact love to be girly more often and enjoy the same type of transition that we CDs feel ourselves, but the feminist movement has demonized femininity so much they are afraid to admit to enjoying the girly experience.

Just as we CDs are viewed negatively for "lowering" our status by being feminine, many modern tomboy women also face similar feelings if they "revert" back to their lower status

Sandra

12-17-2008, 08:39 AM

Jenny Wilson

12-17-2008, 09:55 AM

"I wonder what you ladies think. Do GG's enjoy being a girl and much as we do?"

First of all, define "being a girl." "Being a girl" is such a broad (no pun intended) spectrum of feelings and experiences, with the experience different for every individual woman. However, it can be argued that even with the myriad of differences between individual women, women very much have a "shared experience and outlook? in comparison to those of men. So...

Each sex/gender (arguably not exactly the same thing) have pluses and minuses, many of which have been mentioned in earlier posts, so I won't debate them here.

Maybe it would be insightful to turn the question around. Often, instead of defining what something "is," it is easier to define what it is by defining what it is not. So, do GBs (genuine boys) enjoy being boys as much as girls like being tomboys? Or perhaps an even better question is how much we (boys) enjoy being boys? Hey, how many of us consiously stop to think as we wend our way through the day about how much fun we are having while being a boy? I know I don't stop to think about it, before, during, or after doing whatever it is I'm doing.

For example, last night during a tacktical pistol match I never stoped to think how great it was to be a guy shooting a gun in competition. The same goes for when I'm motor racing. Heck, during these competitions I don't even take the time to think of how much fun it is to be doing these things no matter what sex I am. Perhaps those two activities are a bit too intense to allow contemplative thought during the activity. Perhaps fishing on s slow day would allow more time for contemplation. Thinking about fishing while landing a big fish while deep sea fishing probably doesn't allow much time to savor the moment either.

More on the topic... Some women are simply girlier than others, and quite a few women I know do like getting dressed up in nice clothes and heels, painted and bejeweled to perfecton. They like feeling "girly." That's the feeling that "we" go for too, and like GGs, we usually don't get to do so very often. However, since a GG can pretty well glam up anytime she wants to, we can't, especially if we're in the closet. Granted, a GG would look absurd if she wore evening or "special occasion" clothes to the office, she can definitely wear a nice dress and a tasteful pair of heels to work without being out of place. Most of us would die (or give our left nut) to be able to dress like that, without being ridiculed, at work.

So, how much does a GG appreciate being able to dress nicely at work? I think it depends on the individual girl. Most women I know are into comfort - pants instead of a skirt or dress, especially in the winter, and flat, often ugly (to our sensibilities) shoes. My SO hates high heels. She could wear heels, even just 2 inch heels, any day at work without being out of place, but she doesn't. Days I work from home I'm generally in 3 to 3-1/2 inch heels.

I think she thinks of putting on makeup as a chore. I think of it as a treat, and I always obsess with making sure I've removed all of it. She occassionally paints her toe nails in the summer while I put it on for a day or so and then have to remove it before we get together (she doesn't know about jenny yet). To me nail polish is a treat. To her it's just part of "being." I think she likes being female, but she doesn't appreciate it the way we think we would if were had been fortunate enough to have been born female.

Interestingly enough, back during the summer, out of the blue, she asked me, "What's it like to be a boy?" Mind you, we're both in out mid 50s, so we've been what we are for a fair amount of time. I was at a bit of a loss to explain it to her, as I think I am reasonably male, though not hard core (Neanderthal) male. Outwardly I engage in several "male" activities, not because they are "masculine activities," but because I simply enjoy doing them. I suppose a corallary is that some women enjoy sewing.

I spoke of not worrying much about personal safety (especially since I "pack" 100% of the time), though I also realize there are places not to be at certain times of day. I brought up the sense that I had fewer societal limits placed on me than are placed on women, though I didn't discuss how society would frown on me going out in public en femme.

I think we are each prisoners of our gender roles. I think that most of the time we don't even think about our individual identities nor our group identities as we lead our lves. We rarely stop to ponder just how it feels to be what or who we are.

Sorry for the long discourse,

Jenny

Angie G

12-17-2008, 10:38 AM

It's not all that easy being GG Wendy I wouldn't want to go through some of what they do.:hugs:
Angie

docrobbysherry

12-17-2008, 10:55 AM

There r many women who either can't, or chose not to, look attractive. But, say you're a pretty, shapely, young woman. U enjoy looking hot, turning heads, wrapping guys around your finger!:heehee:

The advantage is;
where ever u go, guys won't leave u alone!:daydreaming:

The disadvantage is;
where ever u go, guys won't leave u alone!:sad:

I saw one of those yesterday. About 25. Built model slim. Full makeup, with long blond hair perfectly in place. Matching jacket and skirt. Strutting to her car in her fashion spike heeled boots. Absolutely jaw dropping looks!:eek:

This was obviously a woman who appreciated being one. And wanted every man within eyesite to appreciate it, also!:D

Joanne f

12-17-2008, 11:14 AM

A few who have replied have said about getting dressed up, makeup, high heels etc, I personnaly don't have to do all of this to enjoy being a GG. Yes when I do dress up I enjoy it but it doesn't make me enjoy being a GG anymore.

OK rub it in make us feel envious/jealous tell us what we are missing , we don`t mind being sad over Christmas knowing that :sad:

just joking :heehee:

ReineD

12-17-2008, 01:04 PM

I feel that most GGs would in fact love to be girly more often and enjoy the same type of transition that we CDs feel ourselves, but the feminist movement has demonized femininity so much they are afraid to admit to enjoying the girly experience.

You've raised a good point. It is reminding me that we cannot, yet again, put everyone in the same category. I agree some women may feel the way you suggest, especially if they are concerned about climbing the corporate ladder. Or the more militant woman who scorns any form of artificial embellishment out of feminist principle.

I also know many women (lesbian and heterosexual) who are disposed to be more masculine and who would not be caught dead in makeup, heels or a skirt. It is not who they are. I wouldn't begin to guess why they feel this way. Natural disposition? Failure to bond with mother? Adverse reaction to negative life experiences such as having suffered some form of injustice or abuse? A subconscious rebellion against not having been born with the body type or the look espoused by media or not having the financial resources to adhere to the look?

But generally, I believe a woman who is comfortable with who she is will thoroughly enjoy her gender and any expression of it that falls within her social mores; including the earthy woman, who dislikes artificial embellishment because she embraces natural beauty and the woman who is strapped for time or resources due to the demands of a job and children and who cannot always look as feminine or girly as she might wish.

Another point to consider is the OPs definition of being a girl, assuming she meant the outward expression. The look or definition of feminine beauty changes with each generation and even within the different social, economic, and educational subgroups. I've noticed among the younger CDers a tendency to express the more androgynous, goth look. Does this make them less feminine in the eyes of the older, more traditional CDers? Or vice-versa?

One final point: will the CDer who is a single father and whose earning power is limited be likely to indulge in expressing ultimate femininity? In other words, is the ability to CD to the degree found among many individuals here limited to the advantaged few who have the time and the money?

As with every topic, once you begin to think about all the different nuances, it can boggle the mind! :)

Stargirl

12-17-2008, 02:00 PM

It was never easy being a GG except when I was a child, and oblivious to the problems that gender could present. We are all different. I was finicky. I never went for the "hetero cookie cutter" type males without some eventual disappointment. Becoming a woman biologically wasn't fun for me. I caught on quickly however, and had some fun with myself as I worked through the psychosexual aspects of "growing". My female friends couldn't WAIT to marry and pop out babies. I avoided that like the plague. I wanted a life for myself, and it just didn't seem like the thing to do by settling down like that. I had no trouble attracting men. I just grew tired of them after awhile, and if they wanted children, I told them to find another woman.

I was attracted to intelligent, sensitive men, but rarely found them. I ended up with temporary relationships that drifted onto another horizon. The decades wore on, and I entered the "change of life." I was so happy about it. My sex drive was better than ever, and I didn't have to play a subservient role as "keeper of a man". I could enjoy them as human beings. As for getting prettied up, I love dressing up, and going to the xtra trouble, but so many people don't dress up for much of anything. I hate to see myself in a mirror, and look "beaten down by time and circumstance" so yes, I want to feel good about myself. I have several male friends, and would like a somewhat committed relationship, but it isn't working that way. It has to be reciprocal. My friends think they "know" what I need. They tell me how smart, and lovely I am, and insist that Mr A is "just right" for me. They don't know how annoying they are when they try to fix me up with someone carrying a lot of "baggage". (ex wives, gambling addiction,shopaholics,TV addicts)
I have baggage, too, so what I need is to be loved, and accepted as a person who happens to be a GG. That makes sense, right ?

Jenny Beth

12-17-2008, 02:39 PM

My wife has never been one who felt it necessary to get all dolled up. Oh sure, she likes doing it on special occasions and admires women who know how to put a look together but she has nothing to prove to anyone. There was a time when dressing for me had to include the best make over I could do along with a stunning outfit, nails done and a splash of Chanel No. 5. If I didn't go the extra mile I didn't feel right. But hey, over time this got to be a real pain (blasphemy I know) and eventually I found casual fashions more to my liking, more to how I feel about myself. I have never been flashy as a male, being flashy as a woman wasn't me either. I know where my wife is coming from, she dresses in what she's comfortable in and that's what matters. When we judge people by what they wear we may never get to know what they are really like.

Satrana

12-17-2008, 03:12 PM

I've noticed among the younger CDers a tendency to express the more androgynous, goth look. Does this make them less feminine in the eyes of the older, more traditional CDers? For me personally I appreciate all the different looks of femininity so long as they make you feel good about yourself! I think the younger Cds using the goth appearance look great. In fact having a look that is androgynous to both genders but still very distinctive and edgy is a great way to go for young CDs to get out in public and to be accepted by goth GGs.

One final point: will the CDer who is a single father and whose earning power is limited be likely to indulge in expressing ultimate femininity? Yes he still will. One of the unfortunate side-effects of having a taboo behavior that can only be accessed through fantasies and secretive closeted
adventures is that it leads to a form of compulsive behavior where the CD seeks the high or the calmness associated with crossdressing. This frequently means common sense is set aside in the pursuit of living the fantasy. This behavior would not exist if we had the been born with the freedom to express our femininity.

sometimes_miss

12-17-2008, 05:36 PM

The advantage is;
where ever u go, guys won't leave u alone!:daydreaming:

The disadvantage is;
where ever u go, guys won't leave u alone!:sad:

I've had a lot of women complain about that over the years, being constantly stared at and hit on all day. My answer to them was, you can always go somewhere to be alone to get away from all that attention. But for someone who never has that attention, there's no where she, or he, can go to get it. So before complaining about it, think about what life would be like if you were ignored by every single person you were attracted to, they never, ever looked at you, and didn't even know you existed. That usually shuts them up for a while.

rosetyler

12-17-2008, 05:48 PM

I've had a lot of women complain about that over the years, being constantly stared at and hit on all day.The way you dress can attract attention as well. Someone dressed in a tube top and a short miniskirt is going to get more of *that* kind of attention than someone dressed in jeans and a blouse.

Cathytg

12-17-2008, 06:06 PM

I wonder... We all know that we enjoy being a girl - sorta - because we spend time not being a girl. But how can a girl know if she enjoys it if that is all she has ever known?

Kate Simmons

12-17-2008, 07:17 PM

The real deal is enjoying being who we are as people regardless of appearance or presentation.:)

ReineD

12-17-2008, 09:14 PM

So before complaining about it, think about what life would be like if you were ignored by every single person you were attracted to, they never, ever looked at you, and didn't even know you existed. That usually shuts them up for a while.

Men, women, and transpersons find ways to love themselves and be satisfied with who they are even if they don't look like models or have the ideal body. I would even guess that many, if mot most individuals value beauty from within much more than appearance. This is what gets noticed and what people fall in love with: self-confidence, warmth, compassion, intellect, creativity, individual talent, in short any positive characteristic - not someone's looks. Would you raise your children to cultivate their character and talents, or their looks? In fact, people who are overly focused on looks turn me off. I think they are very shallow.

I wonder... We all know that we enjoy being a girl - sorta - because we spend time not being a girl. But how can a girl know if she enjoys it if that is all she has ever known?

There is nothing about being male that attracts me, even though I love the men in my life dearly and I love and cherish all their characteristics. :) I have three sons. When they were younger, I could not have imagined ever wanting to play like they did. I think I would feel absolutely lost if I were a guy. I don't have to experience being a male in order to love my gender, just as I don't have to experience being a lesbian in order to love being a heterosexual.
:hugs:

darla_g

12-17-2008, 09:16 PM

Well my wife says we only get the fun part.I've heard that said as well!

Satrana

12-18-2008, 12:50 AM

think about what life would be like if you were ignored by every single person you were attracted to, they never, ever looked at you, and didn't even know you existed.

Every so often a woman will undertake a project where she will transform herself into a man in order to experience what it is like to be male. I have read about several such projects and they all comment on this very fact.

These women were so used to being the center of attraction, so used to be greeted when they walk into a room, so used to having men trying to chat them up that it comes as a shock when they are transformed into men and they suddenly become invisible to everybody, nobody cares about them or is interested in their wellbeing, everyone looks straight through them as if they did not exist.

They also comment that if they approach women they are shocked at how often women would give them the cold shoulder and dismiss them out of hand which discouraged them from trying to talk to other women.

I think if you have an SO who is struggling to understand why you crossdress, instead of giving them a book about CDing, give them a book about this type of project so that they can relate to the significant differences between how the genders are treated which will hopefully open up their eyes as to why some men would want to develop their feminine side. There are many aspects of manhood which are plain nasty, hostile and lonely.

I don't believe anyone can understand crossdressing without giving careful thought to what gender actually is and how deeply it affects every aspect of our lives. The problem is people not involved in the TG scene invariably take gender for granted which makes CDing inexplicable.

One of the more recent books is "A Self Made Man" by Norah Vincent who spent 18 months undercover as a man. A quote from a review:

"Vincent developed an extreme sense of empathy for men. She described the deep fear men had of becoming emotionally vulnerable because of the stigma against it, which had been created for them during their adolescence. She also described how living without an emotional outlet could be pretty crippling.

When she mentioned the relationships she had formed with women and the feelings she took away from them, she described hurtful assumptions and the great misunderstandings women had about men. She gave men a voice, albeit a female one, nevertheless one that other women could relate to and one that helped bridge the gap of understanding between the sexes. Vincent was able to put into words what it is to be a man in American culture, and the inconsistencies between women's ideas of what it is to be a man and the reality of being one."

ReineD

12-18-2008, 12:05 PM

These women were so used to being the center of attraction, so used to be greeted when they walk into a room, so used to having men trying to chat them up that it comes as a shock when they are transformed into men and they suddenly become invisible to everybody, nobody cares about them or is interested in their wellbeing, everyone looks straight through them as if they did not exist.

They also comment that if they approach women they are shocked at how often women would give them the cold shoulder and dismiss them out of hand which discouraged them from trying to talk to other women.

I ordered this very same book a few days ago as a gift for someone!

I do find it odd that the author felt invisible entering the room as a man. Maybe it is because deep down she doesn't have a man's instincts? I've attended many functions where single women's antennas are very quick to zone in on the men in the room, scanning for availability. When out for the evening with female friends, I've observed the single women are acutely aware of all the men in the room, and the men who are also on the lookout pick this up. If the women are not overt about showing their interest, it is because they've been taught that men prefer the chase and are turned off by women who are overly aggressive. Also, no woman wants to appear 'desperate' to find a guy. It is all a part of the mating dance. But, you should hear the girl talk going on in the ladies' room about theses guys! And this happens at all age levels. When a woman finds a man attractive, she does find ways to let him know, just as he does. They just have different ways of going about it.

I do not want to discount male negative experiences with repressing emotion. I raised three sons and it was painful watching them change from the sensitive little boys who were not embarrassed to express their feelings into the stoic men they felt they needed to be. Painful for me ... not for them. They would not want to be anything different than who they are any more than I would want to be a man. But still today, when they are hurt, they do not feel they need to hide their tears from me, and hopefully they will end up with partners with whom they will also feel free to express emotion. I do not believe my sons are the exception to the rule. As to showing emotion in public, we are all socialized not to do this. It may seem as if it is more acceptable to see a woman cry during a sad movie, but I've seen men cry too.

I cannot imagine being a man, because I was not born with the testosterone that helps shape male identity. It seems simplistic to say this, but I would imagine that men find it much easier to be men than a woman would. The reverse holds true as well. Women bear their own gender challenges well because this is what we know, and we are built to perform certain functions. I cannot imagine most men being happy about devoting the bulk of his 24 hour day, while possibly having post-partum depression, caring for a newborn on through nursery school. I loved doing it, I would do it all over again, but it was hard. It was not the romanticized experience many people who have not gone through this take it to be. It is not uncommon for a woman who has stayed home raising children to lose her identity in the process; to think of herself primarily as somenone's wife or mother. Nor can I imagine a man appreciating being discriminated against and being excluded from opportunities for being the 'weaker sex'.

My point is that each gender has the good along with the bad and if you look at the big picture, I do not believe one gender is better, more courageous, more fun, stronger, more sensitive, easier, or more empowering than the other. Barring transsexuals who were born in the wrong body, I would like to see men, women, and the bi-gendered each embrace the lot they have been given and stop believing the grass is greener elsewhere. In my view, the bi-gendered are in a position to enjoy both worlds even though they have the added challenge of dealing with societal bias, and hopefully they do consider their lot in life to be a gift. Celebrate feeling feminine, yes, but why take the female gender as being better or more fun than the male?

This is slightly off topic, I know, but if a CDer habitually finds fault with his birth sex and considers the other gender to be vastly preferable, then perhaps he needs to come to terms with the possibility he is transsexual, and not transgendered? :2c:

DameErrant

12-18-2008, 02:51 PM

Well my wife says we only get the fun part.

My wife says the same thing.

That's why I wish I could switch back and forth on a regular basis, to get a more complete idea of what it is like to be a girl, both the good and the bad, and with that perspective understand better what it is like to be a man as well.

And I don't mean just changing how I dress, but a complete transformation; PMS, The Curse, as well as the good things. I want to completely understand and experience both worlds, so I can better understand both. But I guess outside of SciFi or Fantasy, I will have to be satisfied with acquiring as much empathy as possible.

Satrana

12-20-2008, 03:53 AM

I ordered this very same book a few days ago as a gift for someone!

I do find it odd that the author felt invisible entering the room as a man. I dont think this observation is just about the dating scene but life in general. Our society gives women an elevated status of special interest which men do not have. Men are the disposable gender, the ones who march off to war and get slaughtered in their millions, the ones who stay behind on the sinking ship to ensure the women get on the life-rafts etc. We are not offered any protection, instead we are expected to fend for ourselves, indeed it is part of the male role to prove that you can make it on your own and be tough, successful and independent.

So men have to prove themselves before they can expect any recognition whereas women get attention mostly by advertising their femininity. I think that is part of the attraction of CDing especially emulation, we leap from a nobody to a somebody, from the unnoticed to the star, the undesired to the desirable.

This is why men generally pay little attention to their own appearance. They don't think it matters since they understand they are being judged on their success on making good.

, it is because they've been taught that men prefer the chase and are turned off by women who are overly aggressive. or rather women are taught to play the part of the chased. With regards to men being turned off by women who are confident enough to chase after the men, I think this is a myth alongside men who cannot work with a female boss. There may have been some truth to this decades ago but I really doubt you would find men who would have any problem with a woman taking the lead. Quite the opposite, men would be delighted not to have to do all the legwork and risk rejection and would like the ego boost of having a women approach them

Celebrate feeling feminine, yes, but why take the female gender as being better or more fun than the male?
There is a great deal of fantasy playing, pent-up repression and self-pity to explain why CDs so idolize women and think womanhood is a superior role. If they had the freedom to actually explore this option most would soon change their tune. I agree that people who accept their bi-gendered existence have a great opportunity to find more happiness than those who blindly follow their socially assigned gender. The problem is none of us were taught this when growing up so we enter adulthood inhibited by a ball and chain.

ReineD

12-20-2008, 01:46 PM

We are not offered any protection, instead we are expected to fend for ourselves, indeed it is part of the male role to prove that you can make it on your own and be tough, successful and independent.

This is true, but not limited to men. Traditional gender roles are disappearing. Half the marriages in this country end up in divorce. And women in my situation, who've regrettably decided to stay home and raise their children are no longer protected not even by divorce laws, and they have not honed the career skills required to adequately fend for themselves later on in life. :sad: Their economic status lowers drastically. It is good we are now encouraging our daughters to learn early to make it on their own. I've read that men in general are feeling more emasculated as the result of more women taking on traditional male socioeconomic roles.

I think that is part of the attraction of CDing especially emulation, we leap from a nobody to a somebody, from the unnoticed to the star, the undesired to the desirable.

Thanks for explaining this. :) Still from my point of view, from just sitting around at Starbucks for example, I've noticed that women are aware of the men in the room just as much as the reverse. But, I've read here many times that CDs do not consider themselves attractive as men. I wonder if this lack of excitement over being male accounts for CDs not being aware of or rather not believing that women do notice and admire them in drab. Would this be why some feel invisible?

the ones who stay behind on the sinking ship to ensure the women get on the life-rafts etc.

Maybe the notion of gallantry is more a remnant of traditional male/female roles even though I have noticed sadly it is also disappearing. Younger generations of men no longer hold doors open for women and they walk into the building first. Men and women dating now go dutch. Women are just as apt as men to pick up their partners and drive them on the date.

I do agree there remains a general sense, although no longer many concrete instances of male and female orientations falling into the admirer and admired, pursuer and pursued, protector and protected, and in my opinion women do yearn for this at a primal level. I always thought men reveled in their more dominant or aggressive attitudes too. I took this as having more to do with basic hormones and innate sex drives. On average, don't teenage boys think of sex once every seven seconds? Would this not be the reason behind the male drive to want to worship a female in the traditional sense and the female to want to be desired for being a woman? Genders mutually and happily engaging in the mating ritual that is true to their biology and sexual identities?

I'll never forget my oldest son, when he was 3 or 4, having given me for Christmas the largest, gaudiest, most brightly colored, fake gem encrusted pin purchased at WalMart, but still in my eyes the most beautiful pin in the world because he had chosen it. He stood next to me with bated breath as I unwrapped it and exclaimed, "See Mommy! I got you the best and biggest jewels!" He was more excited about giving it to me than keeping it for himself. At his very young age, he was not yet socialized into traditional gender roles yet he naturally wanted to adorn his mother.

I've noticed this dynamic is not present to the same degree in relationships between GGs and the subset of CDers who are more invested in wanting to be femme. And this can ultimately be a cause for relationship failure .. if the GG cannot alter her own definition of self in the mating or couples dance to mesh with her partner's non-traditional male self-definition, which a CD in another thread called being "a lesser man". I do not think of it in terms of being more or less, but different as I do not look at it as being linear. But, both the GG and the CD want the same thing from a partner. If there is a great deal of love in the relationship and if the GG is able to, she will forego her innate needs. But the yearning to be the woman in the relationship with a man will pull at her heartstrings and cause her to be wistful at times.

This is why men generally pay little attention to their own appearance. They don't think it matters since they understand they are being judged on their success on making good.

But there is a strong fashion market for men. My impression is there are as many men who enjoy 'dressing up' as there are women although I've seen this more in urban areas. Remember the common observation here that few women enjoy dressing up anymore.

Quite the opposite, men would be delighted not to have to do all the legwork and risk rejection and would like the ego boost of having a women approach them

Well, that's good to know! I'll keep that in mind if I find myself single again! :)

There is a great deal of fantasy playing, pent-up repression and self-pity to explain why CDs so idolize women and think womanhood is a superior role. If they had the freedom to actually explore this option most would soon change their tune. I agree that people who accept their bi-gendered existence have a great opportunity to find more happiness than those who blindly follow their socially assigned gender.

This makes perfect sense to me. I wonder if it would help the CDs unhappy with their male roles to realize this, especially the single folks who do not feel constrained by unsupportive partners. But, are there not many CDs who do feel free to present femme at will, who still believe being a woman is superior? Would these CDs be in denial about the possibility of being latent TS?

I'm glad to have the opportunity to discuss this with you, Satrana. :hugs: There is still very much I do not understand.

Satrana

12-21-2008, 08:36 AM

This is true, but not limited to men. Traditional gender roles are disappearing. True they are disappearing but mostly on the female side, far less on the male side. But there is a gradual transition occurring and I am sure at some point in the future the focus will shift to male gender freedom and there will be a catch-up.

I've noticed that women are aware of the men in the room just as much as the reverse. I believe you but honestly I cannot say I have ever personally observed it. I think that is a combination of women being good at hiding their behavior and males not being very observant. It depends upon the environment if course, but outside obvious dating opportunities, men generally observe that women seem disinterested. I know that is part of the dating game but how is a man to know if the disinterest is genuine or just for show?

I wonder if this lack of excitement over being male accounts for CDs not being aware of or rather not believing that women do notice and admire them in drab. Definitely. Because CDs dislike the macho ideal, we rarely envision ourselves or act as a stud. I would prefer to be admired for my prettiness not my ruggedness. In drab I want to be able to talk to women at length so that they can find out about my gentle, sensitive non-macho nature and hope that will be the basis for attraction.

The problem is when I first began dating girls that approach tended to fall flat on its face as young women usually want something more dynamic with a hint of danger/adventure. I think the personality of CDs is more suited to mature women who understand the problematic dynamics of relationships and so are receptive to sensitive men.

On average, don't teenage boys think of sex once every seven seconds? You have fallen for an urban myth, check it for yourself. Honestly women probably think more about relationships/sex than men. Men will tend to obsess about sex if there are attractive women in their field of view otherwise we tend to be absorbed in our jobs, money, politics, cars, gadgets, sports etc. Sex does not appear in the top ten subjects men talk about, it is really more a visual reaction to having a woman stand in front of us or images on the TV or in a magazine etc

But the yearning to be the woman in the relationship with a man will pull at her heartstrings and cause her to be wistful at times. I agree. I dont think it is that difficult for a woman to get over the strangeness of seeing a man in a dress and indeed end of appreciating the look if she is open-minded. However letting go of the dream of being the woman in a relationship is much harder. You cannot have the instantly recognizable images and situations of a romance without "her man" being present. In essence it takes the admiration of a man to validate the sense of femaleness in a woman. At least that is what our society and media convince us is the case from day one. Crossdressing vanishes those long held images women have in their minds of the perfect relationship.

But there is a strong fashion market for men. I have seen other women say the same but I feel this is a fundamental misunderstanding of men. 99% of men honestly do not care about fashion at all. Most men just buy clothes to replace those worn out often in a single purchasing spree once a year. When they get married they usually end up with a wardrobe purcased by their wife. Men's only concern about fashion is not to be too out-of-date to avoid embarrassment. Those few men who do express an interest in fashion are sniggered at by other men because it is a "gay" thing. It is almost as bad as crossdressing and so has been routed out of male culture.

Women may observe that there are male fashions and being brought up to appreciate fashion women transfer their viewpoint and believe men share the same interest. Overwhelming they don't largely because they have been programmed to avoid it.

But, are there not many CDs who do feel free to present femme at will, who still believe being a woman is superior? I would say no. I think it takes a long time of self reflection to reach a sensible understanding of what you are actually doing, what are your actual motives are etc. Years of fantasy of being a women completely clouds CDs ideas of where this behavior is derived from. Then life gets in the way - a career to protect, marriage, children etc. Most Cds believe the best option is to bury their feelings because they believe the freedom to express themselves openly will always be just a fantasy. I think we end up resigning ourselves to our fate and find contentment in keep everything our special secret.

But I myself deliberately kept single for a years to have that freedom and it still took a long, long time to dispense with the fantasies and the secrets and the idea that I was something unique and inexplicable. The notion that CDing is very complex and impossible to decipher is a commonly held viewpoint amongst the CD community which only aids in convincing us that our behavior is all about wanting to become a women. The idolization of womanhood validates the notion that becoming a woman should be the objective.

Would these CDs be in denial about the possibility of being latent TS? The last statistics I saw measured TS as being 1 in 20,000. It is actually very rare. However CDs can become so engrossed in their fantasies and repressed desires that they convince themselves that they would become woman if they had the freedom. A true TS would never let such a notion stand in their way, they would not wring their hands moaning about the lack of freedom since they are convinced they actually are a woman in the first place.

I'm glad to have the opportunity to discuss this with you, Satrana. Glad to talk to such an open minded person as yourself.:hugs:

Sarah Martin

12-21-2008, 03:20 PM

As long as everyone has a wonderful life I don't think it matters if you are Man, Woman, Bi, Gay, Straight, TG, CD, Penguin...

* Thinks * ....Penguin?....

JoAnne Wheeler

12-28-2008, 03:47 PM

Well, I doubt it because they take it for granted. For us it is our ultimate dream - I see a difference.
JoAnne Wheeler

ReineD

12-29-2008, 04:15 AM

It depends upon the environment if course, but outside obvious dating opportunities, men generally observe that women seem disinterested. I know that is part of the dating game but how is a man to know if the disinterest is genuine or just for show?

8 Signs She's Interested in You (http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/128_dating_advice.html) LOL
(Oh the ads .. click on "Skip to AskMen.com - Signs she's interested")

In drab I want to be able to talk to women at length so that they can find out about my gentle, sensitive non-macho nature and hope that will be the basis for attraction.

Honestly, most of the women I know value intelligence, creativity, and sensitivity over being macho. True, they are over 30. :) But what they value most is the feeling that the guy they're talking to is into them. Not much different than what I'm guessing any one would value.

I agree. I dont think it is that difficult for a woman to get over the strangeness of seeing a man in a dress and indeed end of appreciating the look if she is open-minded. However letting go of the dream of being the woman in a relationship is much harder. You cannot have the instantly recognizable images and situations of a romance without "her man" being present. In essence it takes the admiration of a man to validate the sense of femaleness in a woman. At least that is what our society and media convince us is the case from day one. Crossdressing vanishes those long held images women have in their minds of the perfect relationship.

Very true. The question now is how can a woman who is in love with a transperson learn to relinquish these long held images? Or are they needs? :sigh: If we could resolve this, we might find a solution to all the broken relationships. But I do wonder if a GGs desire to be validated through her SOs admiration of her femininity is caused by social construct, or if it is innate, a part of the basic psychology of the biological sexual selection processes necessary to promote physical attraction, which will then lead to reproduction. There is a difference between feeling desired as a woman by a male lover (or as a man by a female lover) vs. being loved by virtue of being someone's best friend.

The notion that CDing is very complex and impossible to decipher is a commonly held viewpoint amongst the CD community which only aids in convincing us that our behavior is all about wanting to become a women. The idolization of womanhood validates the notion that becoming a woman should be the objective.

Then becoming a woman ceases to be the objective once the CDer experiences complete freedom to express herself? But what about the progression from first coming out to a spouse and with her support, dressing at home, to experiencing a need to branch out and establishing an arm's length social network involving going out into the mainstream with people who do not know the CDer in guy mode, to eventually wishing acceptance from selected, then potentially all friends and colleagues? And then, once these barriers are removed, or with the onset of retirement, the wish to dress virtually 24/7 and in the process, somewhere along the way, undergoing permanent facial hair removal and perhaps developing a desire to have breasts? Or perhaps subtle facial feminization? And the secondary manifestations of being female which remain in guy mode: long hair, long nails, pierced ears.

This is what confuses me the most as these CDers do not consider themselves as being TS, yet I cannot tell the difference between the two, except for perhaps the wish to retain male sexual functionality as a way to continue experiencing sexual pleasure. But both involve the same desire to suppress over time every other aspect of being male.

A true TS would never let such a notion stand in their way, they would not wring their hands moaning about the lack of freedom since they are convinced they actually are a woman in the first place.

But other than the timeline, is there a difference between what you define as a true TS, I'm guessing someone who knows from the very beginning she is in the wrong body and a latent TS, someone who slowly, yet progressively comes to live the same lifestyle?

I do appreciate your insights! :hugs:

Satrana

12-29-2008, 11:50 AM

But I do wonder if a GGs desire to be validated through her SOs admiration of her femininity is caused by social construct, or if it is innate, a part of the basic psychology of the biological sexual selection processes necessary to promote physical attraction For sure there is a biological underpinning to sexual attraction but there is nothing in the genes which instructs a woman to choose between a certain look of clothing, hair etc- that is 100% socially constructed. The biological attraction is based upon physical qualities that are indicators of good health and good genes - ie symmetry in facial features. The mental connection is about sharing important values ie the same sense of humor, the same sense in music/arts, same outlook on life. These create the bonds on which trust and respect are built leading to love.

So if a feminine male was taking care of the physical and mental underpinnings of attraction (which often is not the case!) then the only issue would be appearance which is the social construct.

Then becoming a woman ceases to be the objective once the CDer experiences complete freedom to express herself? Generally yes - the notion about becoming a women goes away because the compartmentalization of the feminine becomes integrated into the whole. But just as most people like to drink, only a minority will become alcoholics. Likewise some CDs who reach that level of freedom will go into overdrive and dive further into the fantasy instead of drawing back and reassessing. It all depends upon the personality.

This is what confuses me the most as these CDers do not consider themselves as being TS, yet I cannot tell the difference between the two...... is there a difference between what you define as a true TS, I'm guessing someone who knows from the very beginning she is in the wrong body and a latent TS, someone who slowly, yet progressively comes to live the same lifestyle?

Well that is really the heart of the matter. A latent TS often says they were always TS but were just in denial. I am probably going to hurt some feelings here but I don't believe that is something you can hide from yourself for many decades. I have chatted with latent TS girls and what I discovered is their life story is usually identical to that of a CD - a normal boy upbringing, the discovery of crossdressing in later childhood, the closet, the purging, getting married etc. This is not something which a person who believes themselves to be of the opposite gender will do. There is no sign of a core gender identity issue.

As such I believe latent TS are CDs who having reached a stage in their life where they came out of the closet and discovered that it is not anywhere as bad as they thought it would be, indeed are encouraged by how many friendships are maintained and how their feminine appearance is accepted then realize their fantasy is within their grasp. The idea works itself into their thoughts - "could I really do this?" and over time they convince themselves they could. It is really a choice at the end of the day.

A similar thing can occur except that instead of taking the big leap into transition, the CD will instead slowly increase the dressing until it becomes 24/7. This is about enjoying the social role of women without the need to match this with a whole female body. The choice between the 2 options is probably down to the masculine/feminine quota in their personalities. For example a 50/50 M/F personality will likely go for SRS, a 60/40 M/F personality will go for a transgendered lifestyle.

Three things to note: firstly the more a CD gains the freedom to express themselves the more developed their feminine side will become. It will not be apparent just how large his feminine side will be while he is still repressed in the closet. Only after years of working at releasing his emotions will his femininity blossom into its full size. Even the CD is unaware of how extensive it will eventually end up being.

Secondly the state of long-term closeted existence results in crossdressing developing into a compulsive behavior based upon fantasies (usually sexual). Although compulsive behaviors can be eliminated from everyday conduct, the idea cannot be removed from the mind. It continues to lurk in the background ready to come forth again during moments of stress. This can result in the cycling of moods between control and talking a walk on the wild side. Compulsive thoughts have a nasty habit of winning out in the end.

Thirdly older folks sometimes eventually ignore social norms and the desire to gain the respect of others. With only a limited amount of time to enjoy life, they could not care less what others think and just do their own thing. The desire to be yourself and shake off social inhibitions means older CDs may take the plunge and do what they want to do and follow childhood dreams.

One last thought - even if a CD avoids all of the above scenarios and fully integrates his feminine side while happily remaining male - the removal of the compartmentalization will result in a man who will blatantly display feminine qualities and appearance indicators. Being at peace with oneself does not mean being happy to appear male in public, rather it will actually result in more public and permanent displays of femininity but without the need to resort to emulation.

To summarize the above - there are many paths which a CD can develop along. Which one he takes will depend upon his innate personality, his opportunities and family circumstances, his age, his ability to understand and control the compulsive side to his dressing etc. There are many variables so everyone has a unique story on how they cope with their feelings and how it impacts on others.

sometimes_miss

12-29-2008, 03:13 PM

ReineD wrote:
I would even guess that many, if mot most individuals value beauty from within much more than appearance. This is what gets noticed and what people fall in love with: self-confidence, warmth, compassion, intellect, creativity, individual talent, in short any positive characteristic - not someone's looks. Would you raise your children to cultivate their character and talents, or their looks? In fact, people who are overly focused on looks turn me off. I think they are very shallow.

Ah yes, the 'shallow' argument.
Think about this though: When you're single and 'looking', you walk into a party, and scan the room, you instinctively know who you are attracted to and want to know better, before you ever hear a word they say, and walk towards them, rather than others, before you know anything about them other than how they look. Shallow? We all have things we are attracted to, and also things that turn us off. We don't choose that. To think someone is 'shallow' because we gravitate towards one 'type' rather than another is rather closed minded, don't you think? 'Shallow' has always been the rally cry of folks who are disappointed when someone they like, doesn't find them attractive. You don't really seem to hear it much from people who are overwhelmed with suitors; "Gee, all these shallow people sure think I'm hot!".

Bottom line is, you usually have to be attractive to people in both ways. A 'great personality' won't do it alone any more than a 'great body'. But it's a lot easier to get turned on quick by a great body and ignore the mind than the reverse. Yes, we can 'learn to love' someone with a great mind, but it doesn't necessarily turn us on if the body is extremely repulsive to us (and I don't want to have to subscribe to the 'close your eyes and think of england' concept in order to have sex with someone).

ReineD

12-30-2008, 03:50 AM

But it's a lot easier to get turned on quick by a great body and ignore the mind than the reverse. Yes, we can 'learn to love' someone with a great mind, but it doesn't necessarily turn us on if the body is extremely repulsive to us (and I don't want to have to subscribe to the 'close your eyes and think of england' concept in order to have sex with someone).

I agree, there are the few, fortunate, physically near perfect individuals who are universally thought of as being beautiful and who attract a great deal of admiration and attention.

But most of us don't fall into this category. Also, I think few of us fall into the category of being repulsive. And most of us are attracted to entirely different types than say, the best friend we went to the party with. We each have our own standards for what we find attractive. You must have often heard people say about a friend's new partner, "I don't see what she sees in him". Obviously, she does find something immensely attractive in this partner that her friend can't see. This tells me that it is much more than strictly the degree of perfection of someone's outward appearance that forms the basis of attraction. Maybe it is a look in their eye, or the way they smile or carry themselves, or even smell, or dozens of other non verbal or any indefinable and subtle yet powerful cues that might cause someone's heart to leap when first setting eyes on a potential mate.

I guess this is what most people call 'chemistry' and it is seldom based on looks alone. Everything about this person .. their education, their socio-economic background, how they might even perceive the world they live in shines through within the first few moments of meeting them, and certainly within the first few minutes of talking to them. Everything about a person's past experiences comes together to form who they are and the 'first impression' they give and this includes the things I've mentioned that you quoted. Also remember, I'm not talking about the one 'hottie' in the room that all the guys initially want to hit on. But even then, if she had nothing else to offer other than her looks and her body, how many of the guys would continue to be interested and for how long?

So most women aren't hit on constantly, neither are most men. But I believe when chemistry happens between two people it is based on much, much more than what first meets the eye.

Satrana

12-30-2008, 05:55 PM

So most women aren't hit on constantly, neither are most men. But I believe when chemistry happens between two people it is based on much, much more than what first meets the eye.

I think a lot of that chemistry is actually nothing more than two people who send out positive signals from the get-go. Having immediate positive feedback does wonders for your confidence allowing you to reinforce the message back to the other. With strangers this means the chemistry is built entirely on physical appearance with both parties thinking "I like what I am seeing" simultaneously. When both of you are in the same state of positive attraction it is hard to go wrong as both are only seeking good vibes and ignoring things that would otherwise be an issue.

The issue of shallowness is not that initial attraction is based upon the visual, rather shallowness occurs when people read something in the presentation that they think they can take advantage of ie men thinking of a sexily dressed woman as a one-time easy lay, a woman seeing a well dressed man as a sugar daddy to extract gifts and money from, a geek that can be ignored/trampled on for being less worthy etc.

I guess in the case of a femininely/non macho dressed man how many women would think "I like what I see". That means a CD will have to work much harder to maintain a GG's interest so that she can learn more about his personality. She will not be tuned in to thinking and responding to him in a positive/romantic manner. CDs generally don't follow the rules of the dating game so can have a tough time breaking through. Some just give up entirely!

Rachel B

12-30-2008, 06:17 PM

So most women aren't hit on constantly, neither are most men. But I believe when chemistry happens between two people it is based on much, much more than what first meets the eye.

You should meet some of my mates then......the term anything in a skirt with a heartbeat applies (though I wonder what they'd do if I turned up in my denim mini) :heehee:

I think a question CD'ers with SO's should ask is; If you awoke tomorrow morning and found you were a bloke, would you crossdress? I bet it would make them think a bit more as to what it must be like to have the urge to wear femme and be held back by societies (and our own) perceptions.....:hugs:

Rach

ReineD

12-30-2008, 08:53 PM

With strangers this means the chemistry is built entirely on physical appearance with both parties thinking "I like what I am seeing" simultaneously.

I do not disagree with you! :) But someone's initial appeal, which we take to be strictly their physical appearance because this is what's immediately in front of us, has so much more more to do with other factors than people realize. How do you account for an individual appealing to one person but not another if we can all appreciate symmetry and proportion? There are so many other subtle cues that all come into play when we first set eyes on someone. An analogy would be an exercise in communication. Take any written text describing an event. Then have two different people read it in different tones of voice, with emphasis on different words, pausing in different places ... one person with warmth and the other with anger, each having the appropriately matching body language and facial expressions. You will derive two completely different meanings from the exact same text. The meaning we derive comes from so much more than strictly the words that we read.

I guess in the case of a femininely/non macho dressed man how many women would think "I like what I see". That means a CD will have to work much harder to maintain a GG's interest so that she can learn more about his personality. She will not be tuned in to thinking and responding to him in a positive/romantic manner. CDs generally don't follow the rules of the dating game so can have a tough time breaking through. Some just give up entirely!

I agree that because TGism is currently misunderstood thus stigmatized, few GGs who have not been exposed to the lifestyle will immediately be drawn to a man overtly presenting as a woman. But I disagree that GGs are turned off by quiet, gentle, sensitive men. I'm a prime example! And then there are the scores of GGs out there who are bi and who do not base their attraction to someone purely on their gender. I have a good friend who told me recently a person's intellect is the strongest aphrodisiac of all for her. She is heterosexual, so she was referring to a guy. The same holds true for me, providing of course the person is reasonably hygienic. And there are far more GGs who are turned off by the stereotypical 'macho' type than you might guess.

So my advice for CDers wanting to meet GGs? Start hanging around bookstores and art galleries! :) Or do volunteer work!

You should meet some of my mates then......the term anything in a skirt with a heartbeat applies :heehee:
Yes, I've heard this somewhere before! :D :D

I have sons who initially think much along these same lines! But why do they always end up going for the girl with substance if they want to give their hearts to someone?

I think a question CD'ers with SO's should ask is; If you awoke tomorrow morning and found you were a bloke, would you crossdress? I bet it would make them think a bit more as to what it must be like to have the urge to wear femme and be held back by societies (and our own) perceptions.....:hugs:

I can answer this for you right now! :) Honestly, without any desire to be contrary, if I woke up tomorrow and I were a guy, I do not think I would want to feel or to present myself as a woman and wear makeup, hose or heels. I think I would be happy in my masculinity (as I am in my femininity now), and I would want to emphasize my maleness. I would want to make myself look in the manner I thought the hot babes out there would go for. I'm sure I would still enjoy wearing cashmere sweaters or silky robes though, or the look and feel of a well tailored suit, but in the men's styles that would accentuate my shoulders and minimize my hips.

This is not to take away from CDers who do enjoy presenting as women. I just brought this up to point out that not everyone will feel the same as you do! :hugs: