Differences in intimacy btwn CD and TS?

[AmandaM]

I'm curious. Do you think there's a difference between TS's and CD'ers in regards to their intimate needs? When you have intimacy, if you are MTF TS, do you respond/feel/etc as though you are a woman? Do MTF CD'ers respond as men even though they are dressed? I am trying to figure out if Cd'ers are women in intimacy, no matter who they are attracted to, or if it's only a TS thing.

[Jessicaparkson]

I can't speak for the entire community but I'll just state my own experience.

Intimacy for me is being the female. Feeling, acting, being as such. I have a very good CD friend who puts it this way.

"I'm a guy when not dressed, when dressed I take on the persona and the whole aspect of being the woman. That doesn't mean I'm afraid to get on top though"

[Sarah...]

I'm a pragmatic MTF woman. I don't want the plumbing I've got but in the meantime it seems to work and feels good. It'll be better when it's gone.

What I want and need is intimacy with the right plumbing.

Sarah...

[AmandaM]

I was wondering this. TS's are women, so it makes sense that they are naturally involved as women sexually. But CDer's, hmmm. Maybe they are drawn to respond as women, but since they don't identify as women, what draws them is just a form of sexual desire. I.E., it's a part of the fetish.

[Jenna1561]

CAUTION - the following may be too much information for some.

As a MtF pre-op, I have always felt the emotional side of intimacy much more satisfying as well as the more feminine physical aspects, such as cuddling, the feel of my partner's hand gently caressing me, the playful stimulation of my nipples.

The male aspect of lovemaking has always been a chore, yes, a chore, requiring fantasizing of being in the woman's role and working diligently for an enjoyable experience for my wife.

I enjoyed the male orgasm (haven't experienced one in many months. Hormones have pretty much eliminated my erections.), but truly prefer the sensation (orgasm?) of caresses, kisses, and nipple stimulation - it is so much more and longer lived. I have never felt so unbelievably pleasured like that with any male orgasm.


Jenna

[Heatherx75]

I don't think I've ever in my life been able to have any kind of O without me being the woman. Tried really hard, before I accepted myself, to visualize myself as the man, but never could quite get there. Now that I've accepted myself, I've lost interest in having a male O. Just feels gross. That burst of Testosterone just gives me shameful thoughts, and makes me hate myself. I'm not on hormones or anything, and I used to consider myself a crossdresser, but I've recently begun to consider that I might be TS. Hope that helps.

[Sally24]

But CDer's, hmmm.....since they don't identify as women, what draws them is just a form of sexual desire. I.E., it's a part of the fetish.
You might be a little careful there. However you define a CD, many DO identify as female when dressed. Also, the word fetish should not be applied to CD's as it only describes that segment of the community for which this is a clothes only or sexual only experience.

As far as the original question; I identify as CD although some of my motivations and characteristics are more TS. I enjoy the male experience but I very much prefer the sensual part of foreplay. My nipples are probably as sensitive if not more so than my wifes and she gives me as much pleasure there as anywhere else on my body. I visualize both male and female personas during sex, depending of course on what is happening at that moment.

Unfortunetly I don't think there is a simple answer to this question. Sex is so complicated emotionally that it's tough to quantify into a small collection of words. It's worth exploring though.

[Nicki B]

I think you may be trying to blur gender identity and sexuality?

But why would you think that there's only one answer to your question, when we are all so demonstrably different? :idontknow:

[michelle2b]

I think everyone has created their own definitions for these terms. I have my own too, which may not fit with everyone else's.

From a purely medical perspective, here's how I think about these terms -

- I call someone a CD, if their gender dysphoria gets resolved by presenting themselves in clothes, accessories, etc that society has deemed appropriate for the gender opposite to the one defined as per their own reproductive organs.

- I call someone a TS, if their gender dysphoria gets resolved only after they make gender specific changes to their physical body (not just clothes) such that after such changes are made to their body, they get the sense that their mind and body are more in tune than before the changes. Such changes are typically related to primary or secondary sex characteristics (because those are the main differences between males and females in humans, and because those are the only ones you can change anyway using today's medical technology). It is the need to change sex characteristics (primary or secondary) that makes this kind of transgender person a transexual. The term transexual is nothing to do with the act of sex or with sexual attraction.

Please note that gender dysphoria is about gender, not sexual orientation (which is about whatever gets your juices flowing). A CD and a TS may be straight or gay or bisexual or disinterested in sex. Being a CD or a TS has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

I do not see those who dress up for the sake of sexual arousal, fetish, etc as a medical topic. To me, these are a hobbies and interests not gender dysphoria. Please note that these are perfectly normal hobbies and interests, so I do not judge anyone if their purpose of dressing up is for such reasons. My point is merely that these are not medical issues.

There are of course several more types of people, not just CDs and TSs. Everyone is at least slightly different. I would prefer the term Transgender as the generic term for anyone having gender dysphoria.

As I mentioned above, others may have their own definitions for each of these terms.

[AmandaM]

I am not after sexual orientation per se. I am interested in figuring out if a MTF person can have a "female sexual identity" as well as a "gender identity". This also goes for FTM's. For instance, with myself, I am a TV with some TS tendencies. Does my desire to emulate a female mean I am TS? Maybe. Does this also include my desire to emulate a female in intimate moments? I don't know.
Where does the TV fetish end and the TS'ism begin in your inner emotional state, in regards to intimacy.

[michelle2b]

I think intimacy preferences or sexual identity do not necessarily depend on gender identity. You could have a feminine gender identity and a feminine sexual preference. Or a traditionally feminine gender identity and a masculine sexual preference. Or ... all the possible combinations. I say this because I have met people of most of these combinations so far.

Also, the degree of femininity or masculinity may also vary from person to person for both gender identity and intimacy/sexual preferences. We do not really have a clear definition of what masculine or feminine intimacy/sexual preferences should be - even cis-gender males (who are not TV/CD/TS/TG) sometimes prefer what is traditionally considered the more feminine intimacy and cis-gender females sometimes prefer the more masculine intimacy (I am part of a big LGBT support group in which I meet all kinds of people). People also change with time, with new experiences, with new discoveries, with different life situations, etc.

Some people may need to crossdress and impersonate their ideal opposite gender so that they can be aroused, which is totally fine. The point where I think it needs medical attention is when not being able to crossdress outside of sexual arousal creates a feeling of something being out of sync. I think this would be the boundary between TV-fetishism and TS-ism. Again, other people may have a different opinion about the boundary.

The medical attention I mentioned above does not imply "correction", but rather "support" to help navigate through the various thoughts and feelings and reach self-acceptance. Without such support, the situation could lead to depression and worse things. Also, I am not using the terms TV-fetishism and TS-ism above in a negative connotation, I am using it only for ease of communication.

I understand this may not apply to you, Amanda, but in general - I think that it is best for all of us to just be ourselves and not worry about which categories we neatly fit into. The categories are only meant for general communication, which oversimplifies the extent to which each person is different. Not everyone fits into the existing categories. Even therapists who take notes about the transgender patients no longer try to categorize people, although they need to keep a written record (ie. a form of communication). They write up descriptions of each individual's situation, their feelings, their support plan, their progress, etc. We should not get too caught up with the narrow categories because the categories do not encompass every unique individual. Most of us do not neatly fit into any category. Besides, I think life is too short to worry about our categories.

This is my :2c:

[AmandaM]

<<Some people may need to crossdress and impersonate their ideal opposite gender so that they can be aroused, which is totally fine. The point where I think it needs medical attention is when not being able to crossdress outside of sexual arousal creates a feeling of something being out of sync. I think this would be the boundary between TV-fetishism and TS-ism. Again, other people may have a different opinion about the boundary. >>

If you get to this point, does that mean that the crossdressing in combination with sexual arousal is really from TS'ism? And never was a TV fetish? Or, is it an evolution from one to the other?

[Nicki B]

If you get to this point, does that mean that the crossdressing in combination with sexual arousal is really from TS'ism? And never was a TV fetish? Or, is it an evolution from one to the other?

Surely, from Michelle's definitions above, the boundary between CD/TV and TS is not a hard cutoff?

Concentrating on 'fetishes' doesn't help, IMHO - we are all sexual beings to some degree, once we reach puberty. All our behaviour is touched by that, not just gender issues.

[Aurora27]

It seems to me Amanda like you are trying to define yourself by your sexual response and looking for a reason to call yourself TS? But surely it has to be more than how you like to touch/be touched during sex? But when you are feeling as though you are a woman during sex is the other person a man or woman? I can't speak from experience as I am only attracted to women (I consider myself lesbian) but I imagine sex with a man would be different.

But as has been stated sexual response is so incredibly varied, you can't really make specific statements like 'TS have this kind of sex' or 'Having this kind of sex means you have webbed feet, a monobrow, manic depression and crossdress on Mondays, Wednesdays and every second Sunday.'

I say this to a lot of people, but consider yourself 'human' before anything else and try to work out what that means for you. If you enjoy being male most of the time and feel very feminine during sex then who is anyone to argue with that?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the talk about fetishes is offensive to ts girls who have sexual feelings about their gender issues..

consider that a young ts mtf is confusesd and alone, is not really attracted to boys, thinks of herself as a girl and gets aroused.. sounds familiar to me anyway. heh..

i find the whole obsession about who you have sex with and when you get aroused to be totally outside the topic of being ts/tg/cd/tv whatever you wanna call it.....trying to think about your sexual urges and what they mean is a rabbit hole...don't go down it.

it's much easier for society to accept that crossdressing males have a "fetish" and ts women have an "identity" issue... its just not even close to that simple, but it does make it easier for people who have no clue what the heck all this means to put us in those boxes...

my vote is don't play that game and think about what makes you happy with yourself and do your best to start heading down that path.

[AmandaM]

It seems to me Amanda like you are trying to define yourself by your sexual response and looking for a reason to call yourself TS?

No. I'm trying to see if any insight can be gained by looking at the sexual component as well as the mental component. For instance, I know a TS who used to get her jollies when looking at clothing magazines before her operation. Now, she just looks at the clothes. She is happy now in her new life. It sounds like if you have a healthy libido as a TV, that you can still be a TS. The sexual component is not a barrier to TS'ism. It also sounds like there isn't really a good way of defining whether you are TS or not from your sexualness. Therefore, gender identity must be defined purely in itself, not with any other component as a marker. Is that correct?

[michelle2b]

If you get to this point, does that mean that the crossdressing in combination with sexual arousal is really from TS'ism? And never was a TV fetish? Or, is it an evolution from one to the other?

Amanda, I am not sure where you are trying to lead the discussion, but reading between the lines, I am guessing that you may be trying to figure out -
whether you were "born" as someone with a gender dysphoria (or TS-ism, as you call it) or whether you evolved into gender dysphoria as a result of indulging in cross-dressing for sexual arousal.

Assuming that is the question you are trying to ask, I do not think anybody has a definite answer, primarily because it is hard to get a large enough random sample of people who will honestly admit to being CD/TS/TG (due to taboos, social issues, etc) and in many cases the transgender people may not know about such a concept or they may not have discovered it in themselves. The data that we have is based on those people who have voluntarily admitted to being CD/TS/TG and those who seek help. Hence the data is not statistically right to be able to say, "X leads to Y", or "Z happens before birth only".

However, the general agreement among psychologists and doctors is that people are typically born with gender dysphoria. The brain structure and functions of MtF people parallel those of genetic females, and those of FtM people parallel those of genetic males. This kind of wiring of the brain is so significant that it more likely occurs well before birth.

Of course, not all genetic males or females have an exact male or female brain either. So the word "parallel" I used above implies "is more similar to", not "identical".

Now, to the other part of your question, as I understand what you are trying to ask - can someone evolve into gender dysphoria as a result of years of indulgence in cross dressing for sexual arousal?

I have not seen any precise answer within research papers about this. Theoretically, it is "possible", because our brains get rewired throughout life. However, the "probability" of such a dramatic rewiring happening is very low. Changing from male wiring of the brain to the female wiring implies reactivation of parts of the brain that have been different since before birth. That is too much rewiring to be done when your endocrine system and physiology are still predominantly masculine and you are still living a male life. This does not mean that the wiring would necessarily change drastically if you changed your entire endocrine system with more feminine chemicals or if you lived as a female. It is not that easy to change so much wiring of your brain to change from male gender identity to female gender identity. It is more likely that people are born with a certain gender identity, and a few minute details of that gender identity may change during their lifetime. So, my thought about this is, it is possible to evolve into gender dysphoria after birth, but not probable enough to be a common case.

In addition, if indulging in activities for sexual arousal has led to gender dysphoria, then by the time you get accustomed to high dosages of blockers and hormones through HRT, you will realize that your old sexual arousal has disappeared or is no longer the same as it was before. At that point, you may not feel like you want to proceed with HRT because your brain will object to the changes happening to you.

The "standards of care" for trans people state that you must be under regular therapy during HRT. During HRT, some people realize that it was the wrong thing for them and may need to course-correct. This does not necessarily imply that all the people who felt it wrong to go through HRT after starting on it were doing the whole transition process for the sake of sexual arousal. It is more likely that if they were doing it only for sexual arousal then sexual arousal will have changed by then and they can now think about the whole process more free from the topic of sexual arousal.

I think it is more likely that you "discovered" that you have gender dysphoria over the years, and your activities for sexual arousal may have played a small role in your discovery because you opened your mind to that possibility.

I hope this helps.

[michelle2b]

Therefore, gender identity must be defined purely in itself, not with any other component as a marker. Is that correct?

Oops, I think I started typing before I saw your latest question.

I think that is correct. Gender identity must be defined purely in itself.

I am not sure if anyone else has a different viewpoint, but I think we are all learning about these things, so we should listen to other ideas also.

[Steph Butterfield]

Regarless CD / TV or TS a person presenting as female, then I treat and accept as female.

Dressed or not, I am a woman, as it states so on my birth certificate that I am a girl.

my 5 pennies worth



Stephanie

[AmandaM]

I think that is correct. Gender identity must be defined purely in itself.


This is starting to make sense. For myself, since I have TS tendencies, and wonder if I'm TS, I then think why does it turn me on also? Then I get confused again. I hate being inbetween TV and TS. I may do better if I separate the two when thinking about it.

[MJ]

good question that i can't answer because i don't know how woman feel in this area the Truth is i have no frame of reference.
and as i am not sexually active i just don't know and to be honest at this time in my life don't care for it.

[Aurora27]

It also sounds like there isn't really a good way of defining whether you are TS or not from your sexualness. Therefore, gender identity must be defined purely in itself, not with any other component as a marker. Is that correct?

Ah, hmm, ok... I think I see where you are taking this now. I'll give my thoughts on this and see what you think. I actually think about this a lot.

You have some confusion, yes? Because you are somewhere between TV and TS, and while you consider yourself more or less female, the act of appearing female or thinking about yourself as female is also sexually arousing?

The way I see gender identity is being an expression of your inner being. Mostly people are content in their gender and the options (clothes) that are provided to them in order that they express that gender in the way they want to. That is, most people are told men wear shirts and pants, women wear dresses, and they accept that (obviously I WAY oversimplified...). 'We', on the other hand, have (mostly) male bodies, but are not content in expressing ourselves as male and would prefer that the world sees us as female, and that we interact with the world accordingly.

Problem: despite our inner sense of being female in mind, or desiring to be more feminine, ultimately we are in male bodies and for the most part have male sexual drives, that being we are attracted to women. A confusion is created when we adopt female appearances or wear female clothes, we become in a strange sense aroused by ourselves and our actions. Its probably safe to say many of us have very visual and sensory minds, and being around and experiencing these feminine things is arousing as well as satisfying our desires to be feminine.

To answer your original question more accurately perhaps: Yes, I imagine there would be a difference in intimacy between CD/TS. Gender being a spectrum, I guess that needs for intimacy depend partially on your gender identity and also how strongly you feel that identity. I'm imagining that some people who are very TS would be always attracted to men from puberty and react to sex accordingly, I and others who probably have TS tendencies rather than an overwhelming sense of being in the wrong body, would be aroused by imagining ourselves female as well as craving to be with a woman.

As has been mentioned, with hormones and blockers I think that much of that arousal dies off? The whole thing is largely dependant on hormone levels.

Personally, I like foreplay - hugging and kissing and long, slow touches much more than the end bit.

[AmandaM]

Aurora27, exactly my feelings. I think I am like you. I have tendencies, sometimes strong, to be a woman. I can't get into my head as to where I am on the gender spectrum though because of how intertwined it is with sexuality.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

...and to follow up, i think its best to try to think of your "sexuality" and your "gender" as different things...i spent my entire life being aroused at the thought of "being" a woman...i also spent my entire life wishing i was a woman and wondering why i got stuck as a guy....

i'm on hrt since july...those arousal feelings are almost totally gone and i have never wanted to be a woman more than right now...i still think about being a woman constantantly and i am getting ready to start my real transition this spring(basically building up my confidence and thick skin!!)

as i think of my "sexuality" i get very excited when i picture myself with a guy and so i started to experiment with men and i find the more i allow myself to enjoy it, the more i enjoy it...

i TORTURED myself wondering about my sexual feelings about my tg nature, so i hope you can come to terms with your feelings..

i'm planning my transition next year and just trying to figure the best way to break it to my kids

[AmandaM]

[QUOTE=micheletv;1541900...i spent my entire life being aroused at the thought of "being" a woman...i also spent my entire life wishing i was a woman and wondering why i got stuck as a guy....[/QUOTE]

Oh geez, I'm in trouble. I feel exactly the same.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

:drink:

[Aurora27]

Aurora27, exactly my feelings. I think I am like you. I have tendencies, sometimes strong, to be a woman. I can't get into my head as to where I am on the gender spectrum though because of how intertwined it is with sexuality.

One thing I am quickly learning is to not overthink it. Many things make a lot of sense (or not) theoretically, but work differently in reality. Just experiment and experience the actuality of what you think you desire and see how it turns out. Good luck and all.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i am finding it hard not to overthink it...
sometimes i am really relaxed and ok about things and other times i really struggle.

but i can report that when i am just enjoying what i'm doing, i really feel content and this is a huge data point that i need to always remember.

[Aurora27]

i am finding it hard not to overthink it...

I think it would be hard for someone in our position NOT to overthink it, and I think most of us have a natural intelligence and curiosity which only compounds matters, but yes, those rare moments in which our minds ease up and let us relax and enjoy just being feel great.