I'm outraged!

[Byllie]

Warning! Rant ahead!

As many of you know, I have a beard, and have no plans to shave it off. I also love wearing feminine clothing, especially of a comfortable nature. Skirts are at the top of the list.

Anyway, as many of you probably do as well, I was surfing the web. I was looking for info on crossdressers with beards. What I found was a definition for Genderf&ck. I found this in several places, and it made my heart sink and my stomach clench. I love wearing fem clothing, but do not feel compelled to shave every hair off my body as well. I love being in the middle, because that's where I feel the most comfortable.

But this definition just confirms my feelings that *most* folk have an issue with someone in the middle. Why do we hate, as a species, the idea of continuums? Why do we strive so hard to create categories, to pigeon-hole everyone? "You do X,Y, and Z? That means your'e a blobble-dooky."

Sorry, juts had to let off a bit of steam, and you folk on this list are the most tolerant I know.

Thanks!
Byllie

[Salene]

"Genderf*ck"...seriously? We need a new name for it. Thats totaly demeaning.

:hugs:

[Angie G]

Well I carry hair between my nose and lip so what dose that make me. Well no matter I don't care what they call me I'm happy the way I am. Who thinks up this s&*t.:hugs:
Angie

[Tomara]

From time to time I feel the same non acceptance here on the forum , some feel the need to present as the perfect woman , and some myself included are happy and content being where and who they are !
Does that mean we are more or less of a cross dresser ?
Or are we inferior to those who think that everyone who wears feminine clothing should look like the perfect woman ?
ACCEPTANCE ! ..... that is what we all strive for is it not ?
Tomara

[Byllie]

Thanks, folks, I'm glad my reaction to the term seems to have been appropriate. Personally, I feel we need to start using new language when it comes crossdressing. For example, most CDs speak of wearing women's clothing. But we also speak of releasing our feminine sides. So, why can't we talk of wearing feminine clothing, just as females can wear masculine clothing? Does the clothing make the woman? I think not. Is a tomboy any less a woman because she prefers denim jeans and boots to skirts and high heals?

every human being has feminine and masculine qualities, and each of us has a unique balance of the two. That's what makes me "me". The problem, as I see it, is that society expects a man to be masculine and a woman to be feminine. So, if a man acts feminine, that must mean he wants to be a woman, true? Absolutely not! And that, IMHO, is at the heart oif this language dilema.

Labels are for packages and not for people, so let's stop using them on each other.

Toodles!
Bylliee

[CD Susan]

Hi Byllie, I just want you to know you are not alone in your way of thinking. I have been a cd for over 40 years and for half of them I had a full beard too. At that time I had no inclination to shave it off for any reason. I kept my cd'ing to myself and I did not care what anyone else thought about it since they never seen it anyway. Not all of us want to be out so why would we be concerned about facial hair? Cd'ing is a very personal thing to all of us and each of us takes it to a level that we are comfortable with. I hope that you are comfortable with your level of dressing just as I am with mine. I have progressed to going out and that just happens to be what I am comfortable with and does not mean that you should do this too. I do not have any more facial hair but that does not mean that you should not continue to have yours. Just enjoy it because that is what is all about.

[bah-bah-bobbie]

An upper lip warmer has been a trade-mark of mine for over twenty years. Yeah it kind of interferes with things en-femme, but shaving it off would interfere with things in male mode also. Dressing en-femme is something I like to savor and enjoy the process of. Geting back to male mose is something I like to do at at the flick of a switch and the mustache helps. It's something that applies to any one; gotta take the good with the bad, and I am an over stuffed package of both.

[justmetoo]

I don't have facial hair (well, actually I do have a bit right now, but just because I've been lazy and haven't shaved for a day or 2! :lol: ), but whether someone else does or doesn't is no business of mine. I like the idea of feminine clothing vs. women's clothing. Some women's clothing is not very feminine (not that there's anything wrong with that!). As I've said before, I often just want to wear some feminine things without trying to appear as a woman. I don't use a female name (although a gender neutral one might've been good if I had been named that way) or have a female persona. I'm just me. "Genderf*ck"? I've also seen the term genderblender. Is that similar, without being offensive, maybe? I guess the F part implies f*cking with people's minds?
Actually I think mixing and matching is closer to what many GGs do. Like wearing heels with jeans, for example. Or the many variations on "menswear" inspired women's wear. Some of it very feminine, some of it much less so.

[Desiree2bababe]

I used to keep one just to throw off everyone, I figured no one would think I was a tv if I had a mustache. In fact, my wife worried when I'd shave it.

[MarcieM]

It's just a term. Nothing more and nothing less.
But if you're looking for some kind of justification for having a beard and cd-ing, I doubt that you'll ever find it. Especially if you want to do this in public, people will just think that you're a freak. If you want to just "do your own thing" then fine, go for it, and don't worry about it.

[goofus]

I've had a beard for several months now...I've just been underdressing and wearing women's clothes around the house. I say, whatever you're most comfortable with, that's what you should do :)

[Julieanne]

I was refused admittance to a support group once because of my facial hair -- facial hair which my wife liked! Since she has died I go back and forth; facial growth on vacation, hairy legs in the summer when I wear shorts, shaved legs and chest in the winter when I do not.

I am new to this forum so I am not referring to anything that goes on here -- since I don't know what goes on here -- but I strongly agree with Byllie that categorizing people is harmful. We exist as a wonderful spectrum of how we chose to present ourselves, and we are so much richer because of it.

Hugs, Julie

[jamie55]

Hi Byllie: I read this shortly after you posted but decided to wait and see where it went before I responded. I've known of the label you objected to for quite some time now but unlike you I just let it slide. I'm reminded of the childhood saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me". There are other names used also but none really bother me unless maybe it's my SO that uses them and of course she does sometimes. If it makes her feel better about herself then maybe it's worth it. I too am like you and very seldom get all decked out. In fact I can usually be found in a skirt and heels, with a sweatshirt and baseball hat. I understand that most people are thoroughly confused by my attire and in their confusion I can dazzle them with my brilliance. LOL Bottom line Byllie is that labels are sometimes necessary after all If I need an aspirin I want to be sure it's not a cyanide pill, and I don't really care what the label looks like. Let's just start a revolution. Power to the "genderblenders"! Have a great day.

[sometimes_miss]

Why do we strive so hard to create categories, to pigeon-hole everyone? "You do X,Y, and Z? That means your'e a blobble-dooky."

Many people need to put others in a 'category' so they can feel comfortable behaving towards them in certain way. Kind of like lots of wealthy people treat the rest of us as lesser than they are simply because we don't have as much money.

[Salene]

Let's just start a revolution. Power to the "genderblenders"!

+1 Genderblender works and it not so harsh. :thumbsup:

[kathtx]

Genderf**k was coined to represent an attitude of f**king with the muggles' binary either/or view of gender. To my knowledge it was never meant to be derogatory to people who mix and match gender features (e.g., beards and dresses). Quite the opposite, actually.

[Tracii G]

IMO you're fine the way you are.

[KarenS]

You are on the mark Byllie.

In todays corporate world the continuum as applied to people is couched in the term 'diversity'. Corporate America has been toputing the acceptance and embracing of diversity for a number of years now... when it seems convenient.

I wear a short bristle brush on my upper lip too. It's naturally almost completely white. Nylon panties, slips, and thigh high stockings are at the top of my list. But I'm looking for an evening opportunity to stroll downtown fully dressed out.

I wonder if anyone will notice the brush above my lip?

[Intertwined]

It's just a term. Nothing more and nothing less.
But if you're looking for some kind of justification for having a beard and cd-ing, I doubt that you'll ever find it. Especially if you want to do this in public, people will just think that you're a freak. If you want to just "do your own thing" then fine, go for it, and don't worry about it.

1st: you are correct, its just a term. As for myself, I think it's quite appropriate: GenderF - refers to the self-conscious effort to "F with" or play with traditional notions of gender identity, gender roles, and gender presentation.

2nd: as for your statement of "people will just think that you're a freak." I do it freaquently, and only on rare occations do I hear something like " what the heck are you ". BUT, I am a " freak ", definition of freak; one that is markedly unusual or abnormal, unusual means rare or uncommon & abnormal means deviating from the normal or average I am a freak and proud of it.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=927&pictureid=7748

[docrobbysherry]

When u can be both male and female! I just prefer NOT to present as both simultaneously!:D

The way I CD, shaving isn't necessary.:eek:

[battybattybats]

Try GenderQueer or Intergender http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

[Joanne f]

I have always thought and no doubt always will think that you have the right to be" YOU" in the way you want to be .
I was beginning to think that i do not belong here because i am not one perfect thing at one time then another perfect thing the other time, i just want to be me all the time , so your rant :D has help me to feel better by making me feel not so alone.
Life is about you being you not you being what people think you should be .

[deja true]

Yeah...like Intertwined and Kath have said..."Genderf*ck" isn't a derogatory term. It's a co-optation of what could have been a bad word to serve as a political statement about presenting a mixed gender message.

Same idea as activist gay folks have in taking back the insult "queer" and using it to get their point across, i.e. Get used to it!

Same idea as CDs here using the somewhat insulting (in North America) word "trannie" when kidding and joking with each other.

Same as the use of the "N" word among young black folks.

Same as teenage mall rat girls using the term "bitch" on each other when they're having fun!

Those who use these words do so as social bonding terms for their groups and know them as positives rather than negatives. They help instill an identitiy among those who feel themselves outsiders anyway. Sure , the words have aggressive and insulting beginnings, but it's just these characteristics that make them attractive to the social "outlaws" that use them.

Not a big deal really... just part of the ebb and flow of culture and language...

If ya really wanted to insult me, these words wouldn't do it...but "Republican'" might! LOL!

:D

[Laura Jane]

From time to time I feel the same non acceptance here on the forum , some feel the need to present as the perfect woman , and some myself included are happy and content being where and who they are !
Does that mean we are more or less of a cross dresser ?
Or are we inferior to those who think that everyone who wears feminine clothing should look like the perfect woman ?
ACCEPTANCE ! ..... that is what we all strive for is it not ?
Tomara

Depends on your own pleasure feedback loop, if just wearing feminie clothes does it for you, great, but I suspect for most CDers there is a visual element where seeing yourself presenting as a woman is very important and facial or body hair gets in the way.

It would be hard for those who crave and need this visual stimulus to understand how you can crossdress with beard etc. It would seem like an half measure!

[DAVIDA]

I had a beard for most of my life until five years ago! I looked like the bearded lady!:heehee:

[Slip Affinity]

The heck with what others say ... be your own person and do what suits you.

[Nicki B]

From time to time I feel the same non acceptance here on the forum , some feel the need to present as the perfect woman , and some myself included are happy and content being where and who they are !
Does that mean we are more or less of a cross dresser ?
Or are we inferior to those who think that everyone who wears feminine clothing should look like the perfect woman ?
ACCEPTANCE ! ..... that is what we all strive for is it not ?
Tomara

It would be good, wouldn't it, if we, first and foremost, tried not to judge other people, but accepted (and celebrated) their difference? :)

[Salene]

Found this on a Tri-Ess website this morning and thought it was relivent.

"Individuals who dress at meetings must do so fully. Partial dressing is not acceptable. This is not crossdressing."

:BS:

[Satrana]

Is a tomboy any less a woman because she prefers denim jeans and boots to skirts and high heals?


That is why I know use the label tomgirl and not CD. Laypeople can understand the idea of a tomgirl far better than CD or transvestite or anything else. Words do have power, so it is time we start using them to our advantage. We have to define ourselves and not let others do it for us.

[amber 07]

Well, I guess we know who the Tri-Ess caters to. Thanks for the clarification Salene. Maybe a name change for the forum is in order since we ALL don't fit that discription?

[deja true]

Found this on a Tri-Ess website this morning and thought it was relivent.

"Individuals who dress at meetings must do so fully. Partial dressing is not acceptable. This is not crossdressing."

:BS:


Pffft! We are who we say we are...

[Salene]

Well, I guess we know who the Tri-Ess caters to. Thanks for the clarification Salene. Maybe a name change for the forum is in order since we ALL don't fit that discription?

I didn't say I agreed. Infact there's alot of things they do I don't agree with.

[Intertwined]

battbattybats, Wikipedia is the same source I got my definitions from.

deja true, Bravo, you are far better with words than I, Thank you !

DAVIDA, Awesome beard, would have loved to see it dyed
http://www.geocities.com/nagroth/scancrop1.jpg

Salene, That sounds like a rule to me, and I just love breaking rules.

Satrana, I never thought about the term Tomgirl, I kinda like it.

[Lawren]

If I wished to present as a perfect woman, I would have to shave from my eyebrows to my toenails. LOL.

IMHO, "Genderf**k was started as a derogatory term by some close-minded indivdual because of personal predjudice. I don't like the term because I believe it is used to imply something bad. However, it is just another on a long list of names people have tried to insult me with. I quit letting insults get to me 30 years ago. Call me what you will, if I don't like it, I don't answer. Simple as that.

[Nicki B]

IMHO, "Genderf**k was started as a derogatory term by some close-minded indivdual because of personal predjudice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender**** - copy and paste, and amend the **** to get the correct link (the forum filter here won't allow a direct posting).

"I want to criticize and poke fun at the roles of women and of men too. I want to try and show how not-normal I can be. I want to ridicule and destroy the whole cosmology of restrictive sex roles and sexual identification."

[Melinda G]

Sorry guys, or gurls, or whatever, but this thread grossed me out. Especially the pics. Beards and high heels don't go together very well. You really need to make a decision one or the other, soon! :doh:

[Maria2222]

I think some people are afraid of things that are different. Maybe they aren't truly confident in who they are and need the comfort of sameness around them.

[lynn2c]

Sorry guys, or gurls, or whatever, but this thread grossed me out. Especially the pics. Beards and high heels don't go together very well. You really need to make a decision one or the other, soon! :doh:

sorry, but I have a problem with this. YOU made YOUR decision. That's the point. It was YOURS. I have a mustache 90% of the time. My wife likes it that way and so do I. Lets face it, unless we are transitioning, our outter
femme sides are illusions we create. The true gender issues are on the inside. I consider myself in the middle and like it that way. It's the best of both worlds for me. I can have my cake and eat it too. Why would you even want cake if you can't eat it?

[Alice Torn]

Just my humble opinion, which i served in the military, to earn the right to have. Beards, and heels are great for out in public, as long as the heels are cowboy boot heels. I would never go out dressed, in mustache, or beard, but whatever floats your boat. I know a birthgirl, who has a dark, large mustache, who never, ever wears women's clothes- only baggy levis, and t-shirts, men's sneakers. No one ever tells her she looks nice, and no one ever tells her she looks bad. They say nothing, but, I am sure they notice.

[Alice Torn]

Sorry, about the double reply.Lostinternet, as i submitted first one, though it was lost.

[MarcieM]

Folks, this isn't rocket science.
Even within the CD community there are certain things which are acceptable and non-acceptable. Yes, you can call them "rules" if you want to. Whether you agree or disagree with these "rules" isn't the issue here.

You have two options here.

If you couldn't care less what people say or think, then by all means, go against the grain, have facial hair, and "do your own thing".

If you care what people think or say, and you want to make an effort to "blend in". Get that razor out and start shaving.

It's really simple.

As far as my "personal" opinion on this...facial hair and cd-ing don't belong in the same sentence. nuff said.

[Byllie]

I posted this last night, went to bed, and today I find a very lively and informative discussion. Perhaps I struck a chord?

Anyway, I do not like the term Genderf%ck, no matter what definition is used. If it's a putdown, well then it has no place in my life. If it was to define someone who f%cks with gender, well that doesn't work either. I'm not messing with gender, I;m simply someone who sees myself as being in the middle of a gender continuum. Every single pop psych survey I've taken confirms this.

And as for transitioning, that has IMHO more to do with physical attributes and lifestyle than it does with simply dressing. I'm not "in transition", I'm where I should be, plain and simple.

Toodles!
Byllie

[MarcieM]

Every single pop psych survey I've taken confirms this.
Right. And we all know those are 110% accurate, don't we?

[Bobbi-cdnm]

I've always worn a beard and still dress as often as I can. My wife accepts me as I am and prefers the beard. It's not something I can put on or take off like my bra, so I live with it knowing that I am a passable good looking man but a pretty ugly woman.
Who cares? I don't go out dressed as Melissa and it is only for me that I dress as a woman.
The pinheads who slobber their ignorance deserve nothing of my attention.

[Nicki B]

Sorry guys, or gurls, or whatever, but this thread grossed me out. Especially the pics. Beards and high heels don't go together very well. You really need to make a decision one or the other, soon! :doh:


Folks, this isn't rocket science.
Even within the CD community there are certain things which are acceptable and non-acceptable. Yes, you can call them "rules" if you want to. Whether you agree or disagree with these "rules" isn't the issue here.

You have two options here.

If you couldn't care less what people say or think, then by all means, go against the grain, have facial hair, and "do your own thing".

If you care what people think or say, and you want to make an effort to "blend in". Get that razor out and start shaving.

It's really simple.

As far as my "personal" opinion on this...facial hair and cd-ing don't belong in the same sentence. nuff said.

Points to post 27 (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1539181#post1539181) - but with little hope... :sad:

[Sarah Martin]

Byllie,

You dress when and how you want! It doesn't matter if you have so much hair that you look like Chewbacca in drag....it what's inside that counts!

xxx
Sarah

[Maxi]

I am very hairy, and still enjoy dressing.
Should we have a thread just for people like us?
I can not see myself all shaved.

[charlie]

Hello Byllie!
Genderf#ck sumderf#ck. People seem to go to what they know and understand. Cross dressing is something even other non accepted groups do not understand. We are a bit of an island by ourselves. You know that you are a reasonable person and what you do is hurting nobody. Acceptance may be a thing in the future, however now we only have ourselves.

[jamie55]

Sorry guys, or gurls, or whatever, but this thread grossed me out. Especially the pics. Beards and high heels don't go together very well. You really need to make a decision one or the other, soon! :doh:


Folks, this isn't rocket science.
Even within the CD community there are certain things which are acceptable and non-acceptable.

.

Hi again Byllie: I am not trying to hijack your thread but I've had enough. It's no wonder that transgendered have a hard time being accepted when we can't even accept our own. When I read the above quoted posts I got an instant mad on and I had to step away from my computer for fear of some expensive reactions. Almost instantly some song lyrics came rushing in from one of my fav rock bands. The real you, freedom, who the f" are you etc. Approval and acceptance are not the same, and as I accept each and everyone's differences on this forum I may not necessarily approve but I will always accept their right and yes their obligation to be themselves without conditions. I am not a religious person but I truly believe in this. "Those of you without sin cast the first stone" Nothing short of an apology by certain individuals will make me feel at ease, but fortunately for me as I am far removed from anyone on this forum I can step away knowing that I am real without all the makeup, wigs, and fake boobs that some feel are a requirement or as quoted above a rule in order to be a member of this illustrious society of misfits. I know that I am probably pissing off a great number of people and for that I apologize in advance for I mean no harm to anyone here. I am simply pointing out that we must stick together and if each one of us does their part, no matter how small, we will advance the cause towards acceptance.

[Jilmac]

Byllie, I had a beard for 36 years and always enjoyed dressing but was still in the closet. I finally shaved it off 11 months ago and never regertted the choice. But I do know how the public perceives a bearded man wearing a dress or skirt. It's too bad we all just can't be accepted for who we are.

[Tashee]

I can't post many pics and really should keep a low profile. I dream of being beautiful, I know I am not. I see the same bias by us to the beautiful ones. My heart sinks I am not wish to be and may be inside.
Your rant is a good rant it is food for thought. Now Know one has put any pressure on me. The pressure I feel to be beautiful is all self imposed. My lack of pic posting comes by MY choice of professions.
If you happen to be beautiful inside and out great. But if you are blessed with inner beauty you will be truly beautiful in others eyes

[justmetoo]

I'm saddened at some of the lack of acceptance even within the community, but mostly on this site I see lots of acceptance for various forms of personal expression.
In the past I encountered some of the "rules" and thought there was something wrong with me because the so-called "rules" didn't fit me. These days I'm learning to be more accepting of myself and learning to make my own rules. It's called self-expression - other people's rules don't apply!
At any rate I've never seen an official CD rulebook. :tongueout
I try to live by those excellent words from the Bard - "To thine own self be true". I also try to respect the rights and decisions of others, especially when they are different from my own.

[Maxi]

jamie55, Byllie,
Some of us are very accepting of any form of dress. With or without hair, what ever you like, go for it. I'll wear lingerie & stockings with a beard, and my wife accepts me. Show you who is really open minded.

[MarcieM]

I am not trying to hijack your thread but I've had enough. It's no wonder that transgendered have a hard time being accepted when we can't even accept our own.
I have to disagree. It's not about tg/cd not being able to accept their own.
It's about choices and priorities, what works, and what doesn't work.
I had a full beard for over 25 years. When I decided to get serious about cd-ing, I shaved it off.
If you never plan on leaving your house cd-ed, who cares if you look like Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top wearing a dress?

[jamie55]

I have to disagree. It's not about tg/cd not being able to accept their own.
It's about choices and priorities, what works, and what doesn't work.
I had a full beard for over 25 years. When I decided to get serious about cd-ing, I shaved it off.
If you never plan on leaving your house cd-ed, who cares if you look like Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top wearing a dress?

Hi Marcie: First off thank you Maxi it is nice to see open minded people on this forum. Secondly Marci: What works for you may not be the same for me or anyone else on this forum, to each their own so to say. I go out of my house dressed the way I want to dress and not the way you want me to dress in order to fulfill your agenda. Just looking at your profile tells me that you are full of bs. Look at mine if you haven't already. I give you enough info that you could probably drive right up to my house and if you need more just pm me and I'll give you all the info you need. I am not afraid to be who I am and I don't appreciate those who deprecate me because I don't measure up to their standards whatever they are. Oh and by the way just for the record I am clean shaven from my nose to my toes, I am only defending those who choose to follow a different path. After all that is what gender diversity is all about.
PS: Mods don't lock this thread up just because I'm being obnoxious I'll just go away if that will help.

[MarcieM]

Just looking at your profile tells me that you are full of bs. Look at mine if you haven't already. I give you enough info that you could probably drive right up to my house and if you need more just pm me and I'll give you all the info you need. I am not afraid to be who I am and I don't appreciate those who deprecate me because I don't measure up to their standards whatever they are.
Just because I don't have a detailed profile I'm full of BS? And where did I say you were afraid to be who you are or failed to measure up to anyone's standards? I haven't.
Maybe you need to cut back on the caffeine or something? Lose the drama hon, it's really not necessary.

You can propose an "anything goes" theory on cd-ing if you like, but that's simply not how it works in the real world. You know that, I know that, and every other CD knows that.

[jamie55]

Maybe you need to cut back on the caffeine or something? Lose the drama hon, it's really not necessary.

You can propose an "anything goes" theory on cd-ing if you like, but that's simply not how it works in the real world. You know that, I know that, and every other CD knows that.

Hi Marci: Please enlighten me. because I live way out here in the boondocks I guess maybe I don't know about the real world.

[sissystephanie]

Thanks, folks, I'm glad my reaction to the term seems to have been appropriate. Personally, I feel we need to start using new language when it comes crossdressing. For example, most CDs speak of wearing women's clothing. But we also speak of releasing our feminine sides. So, why can't we talk of wearing feminine clothing, just as females can wear masculine clothing? Does the clothing make the woman? I think not. Is a tomboy any less a woman because she prefers denim jeans and boots to skirts and high heals?

every human being has feminine and masculine qualities, and each of us has a unique balance of the two. That's what makes me "me". The problem, as I see it, is that society expects a man to be masculine and a woman to be feminine. So, if a man acts feminine, that must mean he wants to be a woman, true? Absolutely not! And that, IMHO, is at the heart oif this language dilema.

Labels are for packages and not for people, so let's stop using them on each other.

Toodles!
Bylliee

Bylliee, you are absolutely right. Nobody should be "labeled!" Whether that person is a CD, "tomboy," or etc, they are still a "person" and should be recognized as such. My dear late wife years ago told me that I wore "feminine" clothing rather than "woman's" clothing. She explained that "woman's" clothing generally meant that clothing designed for larger females, while I wore "miss's" sizes. Since then I have always referred to my CD clothing as "feminine." I don't have a beard or mustache, but do go out in public in feminine clothing without a wig or makeup. If someone called me a a name, other then Crossdresser, to my face, they better be ready for some serious hurt!! I am a crossdresser and readily admit it!

[Satrana]

Well if we are going to discriminate against beards because they jar too much with the feminine image then we also have to include all other masculine properties that dont jive with femininity such anyone over 6 feet, anyone with a muscular build, anyone with wide shoulders, anyone with a shoe size over 10 etc.

That probably leaves about 10% of this forum's membership as duly certified crossdressers who have passed the qualification that they don't possess any recognizable masculine properties.

[Kelsy]

Byllie,

No labels, no judgement, no rules. ----acceptance, belonging and love

Be yourself!!

:hugs:Kelsy

[deja true]

... Beards and high heels don't go together very well.


Who says?



...You really need to make a decision one or the other, soon! :doh:



Why?


:straightface:

[DAVIDA]

Well, isn't that special!
Marcie, first you condem those who have beards or facial hair and say that we are not crossdressers. Then you say later, that if you don't go out of your house looking like a member of ZZ Top in a dress, then it is OK. Well , how about you make up your mind!
If I knew that posting a picture of me from six or seven years ago would piss people off, I would have done it a long time ago. But, if I did it then, you were not around then and would not have seen it.

And, Melinda, have you ever seen a person with a beard wearing heels?

I am very proud of my sisters here that have graciously defended EVERYONES right to do and be whoever and whatever they are!
Several of our members here do have beards, and do go out dressed. NO one has the right to say that they can't.

I don't have a beard or any hair above the waist (other that the small amount left on my head and some that has appeared in my ears), or on my legs. I do have some on my a$$. I can PM you a pic if you want.(You think a beard is gross):eek::heehee:

Why don't you just hit the ignore button and you will not have to take the chance of seeing another picture of me with a beard.

[Kate Simmons]

Hmm to me the real challenge is to be yourself not to try and fill someone else's standard of who they think you should be. That's how I got into this to begin with.

[Lawren]

Ok folks. Enough with the fighting over so-called rules.

Crossdressing is, like all other facets of life, varied to the extremes of both radical and conservative. I, personally, want to vomit when I see some drag queens out and about with ten pounds of makeup on and tin cones for boobs. I feel the same way about Goth and Grunge. So what? That is the image they want to project. However, I will NOT join in the social attitude of condemning them for their choice of appearance. I will NOT relegate myself to togas and roman sandals just to accomodate my facial hair and get the feeling of a skirt flowing around my knees. Nor will I shave five times a day. I will NOT be the one who decides who is a CD and who is not. That was my point in my thread; Hypocrasy, A Minor Rant". If we cannot accept each other, how much less can we expect others to accept us?

Let's unify our own ranks. It will make the road to full acceptance much easier.

I am an individual who enjoys wearing clothing that is made for the opposite sex. IMHO, that makes me a crossdresser. I will not write, nor abide by, any arbitrary rules about CDing. As my tagline says; "I am just an average person with an expanded wardrobe".

[Byllie]

Methinks this is an issue that our community stills needs to discuss and deal with. After reading the latest onslaught of postings, I've had a few more "thoughts".

First, there's the issue of crossdressing and transitioning (I assume the latter as a transsexual). Those who really are transitioning, IMHO, are trying to become the gender they were not born with. This does not match the true def of CDing, which is to dress in a manner opposite your own gender.

Okay, that said, what if we accept the concept of a gender continuum? In that case, what we wear merely reflects the gender, or rather point on the continuum, we feel we are. That is, neither completely female nor completely male, but somewhere in-between.

Those who say that "beards and skirts don't go together", seem to be confirming a polar view of gender, rather than a continuum. And, by the way, there are cultures on our planet where women (XX) have facial hair *and* it's seen as beautiful. Are we perhaps being a tad too ethnocentric in our views?

I started this thread with a rant, but it's turned into a wonderful discussion that I feel we need to undertake often. Language is the way we communicate, and it's therefore important to get the definitions straight. I'm sooooo glad that we, as a group, can discuss issues so well, and feel comfortable to sometimes "let it all hang out."

Your turn ...

Toodles!
Byllie (proud to be who I am)

[MarcieM]

Well, isn't that special!
Marcie, first you condem those who have beards or facial hair and say that we are not crossdressers.
No, I never said that. Maybe you need to check back on who said what.


Then you say later, that if you don't go out of your house looking like a member of ZZ Top in a dress, then it is OK. Well, how about you make up your mind!
No, I never said that either. Maybe you need to improve your reading skills.


Several of our members here do have beards, and do go out dressed. NO one has the right to say that they can't.

Again, I never said they couldn't go out. I'm simply saying if someone does CD and have a beard, and go in public, be prepared to be viewed as a freak.
It's really that simple. Be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.
You can have this utopian view of a perfect world where everybody "does their own thing" and nobody judges how anyone else looks, but you know that's completely unrealistic. I live and function in the real world. It's not a perfect world, but it is what it is. That's the long and short of it.

[Melinda G]

Part of the reason for this site, I believe, is to educate people, and gain acceptance for CDers, among the general public. And beards and high heels certainly don't enhance our image with anyone, except maybe the defiant, "I can do as I please" crowd. So be my guest. You can wear fishnets and a santa claus suit with your beard if you like. I can only speak for myself, and I'm not into making a fool of myself in front of other people. And you beards and high heels types do nothing for the CDers image these days. It's hard enough gaining acceptance for CDing, without a few freaks dragging us back down! :Angry3:

[Nicki B]

And you beards and high heels types do nothing for the CDers image these days. It's hard enough gaining acceptance for CDing, without a few freaks dragging us back down! :Angry3:

Melinda, don't you see that's exactly the same argument that has been used by a minority in the LGB movement to disassociate themselves from the trans and more flamboyant gay communities? It's very selfish - and worse, ultimately self-defeating?

If acceptance for EVERYONE can be increased, we ALL benefit. If it can't, we ALL lose.

[carolinoakland]

eh, trans are like this..." all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles. Carol.

[MarcieM]

If acceptance for EVERYONE can be increased, we ALL benefit. If it can't, we ALL lose.
Guess what? There will NEVER, I repeat NEVER, be acceptance for a bearded man wearing a dress in public. It's simply NOT going to happen. If you think this grandiose vision is somehow possible, you need a serious reality check.

[Melinda G]

If acceptance for EVERYONE can be increased, we ALL benefit. If it can't, we ALL lose.

There are always a few people trying to push the envelope. These people just make us look foolish, just like the Budweiser Boys make CDers look foolish.
And yes, the flamboyant gays don't do their cause any favors either! Many people go through their entire lives with no one knowing they are gay, until they get arrested for something. Others just go through life making fools of themselves with their flamboyant, in your face antics.

[Sarah...]

Guess what? There will NEVER, I repeat NEVER, be acceptance for a bearded man wearing a dress in public. It's simply NOT going to happen. If you think this grandiose vision is somehow possible, you need a serious reality check.

And the Titanic will never sink.

And women will never get the vote.

And mankind will never fly.

And humans will never survive moving at speeds greater than 50 kph.

And there will never be a female prime minister.

And homosexual people will never be accepted.

And there will never be another world war after world war one - the war to end all wars.

I guess any one of us could go on. History is littered with people who confidently predicted that various things would never happen. They all suffered from flawed thinking in one way or another. Now I'm not saying that the opposite is a dead cert - just that "never" is such a final solution that is so often wrong.

Sarah..

[lauraabdl]

When u can be both male and female! I just prefer NOT to present as both simultaneously!:D

The way I CD, shaving isn't necessary.:eek:
I too sport a mustasch for my male side as my SO likes it. I tried shaveing my beard off and that was ok, shaved my chest hair and SO went balistic, shaved my legs and SO don't approve but will tolorate. So present as you will or can its as individual as we are.
Laura:2c:

[DAVIDA]

I never said that I ever went out when I did have a beard. But, if I did want to, I certainly would not call anyone to see if it was OK!
As for the statement that a man with a beard will never be accepted wearing feminine clothing has not met Butterfly Bill, who is a member of this forum!
My point is, people have the right to wear what they want to. Most crossdressers that have facial hair probably never go out of their house.
Those that do, more power to them!
I personally have never felt ashamed of, or bad for myself, for the way someone else is presenting themselves!

[MarcieM]

As for the statement that a man with a beard will never be accepted wearing feminine clothing has not met Butterfly Bill
I know who he is, and regarding him, I'm going to say "no comment".

[Byllie]

I am most definitely not flamboyant. I'm also a heterosexual CD, who happens to have a nicely, close cropped beard. Somehow I do fit the model some of you are waging war against.

[Nicki B]

Marcie,

All you're showing is your belief that only a binary is possible. When you've spent more time here, perhaps you will realise gender is much more than that, and it's wrong to try and force people into boxes, just because they make you uncomfortable? :idontknow:


The world I live in is becoming more accepting - precisely because a brave few make themselves visible and force people to reconsider that there is more than a binary - and difference should be celebrated, not attacked?

[Kate Simmons]

Tolerance starts right here folks. If we don't have tolerance for diversity within our own community, we are no better than the society that we say has no tolerance for us. Simple as that really.

[Stargirl]

I wonder if F t M crossdressers would like being told that they are not "blending in" if they don't have facial hair. I can imagine " Mrs Grundy the punjab of correctness" trying to rake THEM over the coals as per "the RULES". I would love to sit in the saloon, and watch that discussion take flight, especially during a game of pool and a raging blizzard. Right out of a Dennis Hopper movie. :drink: :tongueout

[Melinda G]

I know who he is, and regarding him, I'm going to say "no comment".
Me too.

[Joanne f]

Me too.

A man with a beard in a dress would be looked upon as just that by the public .
A man in a very short skirt would be looked upon as if they are going to do some sort of lewd act and would be frowned
upon by the general public , so who is doing more harm as far as acceptance is concerned , has to be the man in the very short skirt

[Melora]

WHY DO WE HATE???

Our species within coultures Seem to hate Thoes who do not look or act the norm of society and the "mainstreem" RELIGION of the coulture!
I think that Religion is The DOWNFALL of society!
IT has in the past even Downgrated and Persecuted the advancements of Science as well as those Who Think Differently!
DO NOT FORGET.. Religion = Government= Media = Popular Coulture! = Your environment.. Try to Change IT!

[Sandra]

I can't believe some of the posts in this thread. You are crying out for acceptance in the big wide world but you it seems that some of you can't accept each other. Just because someone doesn't conform to what you think is right doesn't give you the right to say that they are wrong or making you look foolish.

[Samantha Kelsey]

Just be what you wanna be. Everyone has a go at someone else whoever they are or what they look like, even the pope it seems!

[Intertwined]

Look what you made me do! :Angry3:

I shaved my mustache and gohtee off yesterday. :sad:

And its all this threads fault. :eek:

Actually I had planned, once Santa was done with his Christmas shopping I was shaving it off. This was my first honest attempt to grow facial hair.

What will be interesting, to see how it changes my attitude the next time I go out in my 50/50 feminine/masculine. (i never have tried to pass as a female)

Merry Christmas, wishing everyone a very safe and happy holiday season.

Before and after compareson.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=927&pictureid=8504

[Samantha Kelsey]

Well, I think you look ten years younger without the facial fuzz but I may be biased as I couldn't grow a beard if I didn't shave for a year.
Merry christmas. xxxx

[Kayla_CD]

Okay, so Genderf*ck is a post modern term used for anyone who blurs gender lines in an obvious way in order to point out the absurdities of those lines. It has such a rude title because it comes from that angry part of third wave feminism: reclaiming while destroying patriarchal notions.

I'm sure the term was not meant as a slight against you or people who dress as you do, it's more meant for someone who would do that just so that people would give him dirty looks so he could confront them.

For a great example of genderf*ck in mainstream culture take a look at Peaches' album Father*****. It sat on the shelf uncensored simply due to the change from mother to father, it's still there last I saw. It also features a picture of Peaches herself wearing a false beard.

[valenstein]

Found this on a Tri-Ess website this morning and thought it was relivent.

"Individuals who dress at meetings must do so fully. Partial dressing is not acceptable. This is not crossdressing."

:BS:

Luckily the chapter I was in didn't adhere to those rules. Geez, that statement probably would have kept me from ever joining.

Secondly, I don't understand the disparaging comments, especially amongst ourselves. Many GGs would find the lot of us (beard, no beard, passable, not passable) "gross". Three of the most commented on topics: 1) What word do you prefer for your identity? 2) Sexual orientation 3) Passing (or acceptance)

Anyone of these topics will get 100 different answers from as many people. It need not be your vision to accept it. When I joined this board, I saw subgroups that I initially thought were "weird", but I read and understand. As long as you're happy with yourself and not harming others, it makes sense to me. It may not be something I'm in to, but anyone who expresses their personality in the face of a society that is afraid to is okay by me.

I'm sure the domain name for:

crossdresserswhoarestraightandgooutfrequentlyandma ybetransbutonlylikeskirtsanddoafinejobifimaysaysom yself.com is wiiiide open for use.

[Stephanie Kay]

Hey, honey, do what you want, but I just get turned off by chicks with beards!! I wore a full beard for many years to try to "hide" my true self in the closet! I would NEVER even think of going out in public in women's clothes wearing a beard. Could be I was totally chicken OR it just looked so unfeminine!! Mostly it was the latter because when I finally shaved I felt so liberated that I immediately went out dressed the first night I shaved and never looked back!! Now I am having so much fun and feel so comfortable with my femininity that I wish I could afford electrolysis!! Stay hairy, if you want!!

Love,
Stephanie

[MarcieM]

Tolerance starts right here folks. If we don't have tolerance for diversity within our own community, we are no better than the society that we say has no tolerance for us. Simple as that really.

I disagree.
IMHO, it really has nothing to do with tolerance on this forum. And what do you mean we're no "better" than society? We ARE society, it's the same thing. Whatever you see in society, you will see right here.

Some of us just live within the REALITY of society as it exists, not some fantasy land that we wish for. I can assure you that you'll find zero tolerance for a bearded female wannabe in society. So why would you expect to find it here? And puleeeeze don't try using Butterfly Bill as an example. You already wore that one out.

Listen...I'm not telling anyone what to do here. If you want to grow a Rip Van Winkle beard and wear a cocktail dress, with 5 inch heels, please - go for it! But don't expect unconditional acceptance looking like that. It's simply NOT going to happen. That's not my judgment call, that's just simple REALITY.

I just think it's far past time for some people to get a dose of reality here and stop living in a fantasy land. You want tolerance? acceptance? Then IMHO,
the first step this community needs to take - is getting REAL with themselves.

Sure, I already know there will be a mad rush after this post to enlighten me or to tell me how "mean" I am. I expect that. Go for it, whatever blows your skirt up. :love:

[Byllie]

Wowzer! This little thread I started has taken on a life of its own. Hopefully what I'm about to type will cool it down.

I understand full well that if I wear a beard and a dress in public, most others will see me as a man in a dress. In some respect that's better than okay *if* they also do not add "yuck" when they see me. BTW, I'm not currently planning to wear a beard and dress in public any time soon. Momma didn't raise an idiot, ya know.

Anyway, my main issue is with what some (not necessarily forum members) come to believe is the only acceptable expression of CDing. That is, to wear feminine clothing and attempt to look like a GG. That, folks, is not me.

Why do I like wearing feminine clothing? Because I do, simple as that. It's not because I want to look like a women, or because I'm too scared to "go all the way" and transition. I simply like the look and feel of the clothing ... sometimes.

Why do GGs wear jeans and denim shirts, or sweat suits, or other typically "male" apparel? Because they like the look and feel of the clothing. That is all I'm asking for, the right to wear maculine or feminine clothing whenever I choose to.

I have a feminine aspect that is, in my case, equal to if not a tad stronger than masculine aspect. I already feed my fem part in the things I do, and now I'd like to feed it with the clothing I wear on occasion. Of course, being a fairly intelligent ape, I realize that I cannot walk in public looking anyway I'd like without attracting stares and worse. But at TG or CD meetings, or on this forum, I would expect a tolerance, an acceptance of my feelings as a human being.

I do not wish to rain on anyone else's parade. I do not wish to be the freak that draws attaention of the wrong kind to our struggle. I just want to be able to discuss my femme wants and feelings without another CD feeling threatened by me. I see nothing wrong with someone else wishing to dress to the nines, but that's not for me. As I've written before, a comfy skirt and blouse and I'll all set. In fact, when I spent 5 weeks alone in Germany, this past summer, that's how I dressed most evenings in my studio appartment. But outside, I dressed en drab, though not macho in any way.

I hope this helps many of you see where I am coming from. There are gays who are so out there they bring shudders to the average gay, but they accept them. Same for lesbians. Let's try and do the same for our fellow CDs. Perhaps we need a thread on what sort of makeup to wear *if* you allso have a beard. Or, what sort of blouses to wear if you *choose* not to wear false breasts. Let's expand our views, our discussions, and not go down a narrowing path.

Toodles!
Byllie

[Maxi]

Stephanie Kay, speaking of chicks with beards, How many female Santas have you seen. And we let our children sit on her knee. Just food for thought.

[Nicki B]

Some of us just live within the REALITY of society as it exists, not some fantasy land that we wish for.

Marcie, do you want that reality to change, for you? You don't sound as if you do.. :strugglin

[Shelly Preston]

I disagree.
IMHO, it really has nothing to do with tolerance on this forum. And what do you mean we're no "better" than society? We ARE society, it's the same thing. Whatever you see in society, you will see right here.

Some of us just live within the REALITY of society as it exists, not some fantasy land that we wish for. I can assure you that you'll find zero tolerance for a bearded female wannabe in society. So why would you expect to find it here? And puleeeeze don't try using Butterfly Bill as an example. You already wore that one out.

Listen...I'm not telling anyone what to do here. If you want to grow a Rip Van Winkle beard and wear a cocktail dress, with 5 inch heels, please - go for it! But don't expect unconditional acceptance looking like that. It's simply NOT going to happen. That's not my judgment call, that's just simple REALITY.

I just think it's far past time for some people to get a dose of reality here and stop living in a fantasy land. You want tolerance? acceptance? Then IMHO,
the first step this community needs to take - is getting REAL with themselves.

Sure, I already know there will be a mad rush after this post to enlighten me or to tell me how "mean" I am. I expect that. Go for it, whatever blows your skirt up. :love:

Marcie

You say we are society
Then you say we can dress how we like beard or not

You then go on to say you cant accept it

How exactly does this help the community move forward

As for reality that depends on where you are
I have been out in the community and seen crossdresser's with beards being treated the same as everyone else

They are making the effort to change perceptions to those that are not used to seeing it

Will you ever be able to accept it Marcie ?

[Janie Gunn]

Be YOU, however that is.
I shaved my bit of facial hair off long ago because I didnt like the look on me.
If you're going out in public dressed 'in-between', there will always be people who will 'label' or 'disaprove' of it in some way because it is even more un-natural, neither 'he' or 'she', society is just like that, and something that wont ever change. Be aware you may cop some flack from those who speak their minds, and just need to get used to it if you are going out in public like that.
Such broad acceptance would be nice, but is that really going to happen in this 'wide' world? I think not. Dont worry about it too much. Labels arent gonna go away.

Janie

[Genifer Teal]

Warning! Rant ahead!

As many of you know, I have a beard, and have no plans to shave it off. I also love wearing feminine clothing . . . I found was a definition for Genderf&ck. I found this in several places, and it made my heart sink and my stomach clench. I . . . do not feel compelled to shave every hair off my body as well. I love being in the middle, because that's where I feel the most comfortable.

Thanks!
Byllie

Sure, the name sounds bad, but I never took it as a bad thing. As I see it, anyone "in the middle" is "outside the box" and that f&cks with society's binary idea of gender. To me the name describes what we do to society and not society's view that we are F'd up. Everything is fine in their binary world until we come along and present a third option which confuses the heck out of most people. So once again, we are F'ing with their close minded brains.

I may try to conform to society's expectation of how a female should present, but I could still fit the same category (gender f&ck). I am definately not dressing as society would expect a man to. I like messing with peoples minds a bit. I think if I truely did pass all the time this might get boring. Just my feelings. I'm not offended by the term, maybe others shouldn't be either.

I will say that I personally would reserve the term for someone like Marilyn Manson. I think he is the definiton of Gender F&ck. Technically we may fit the definiton too but that is like saying a woman who wears mens jeans is crosdressing too.

Gen

[2b.Lauren]

Byllie thanks for sharing that. You know where I feel this the most is the whole underdressing thing. Many of us for whatever reason are not able to fully dress daily, but need to express our feminine side daily. So wearing whatever we choose under drab on a daily basis is our way of expressing the real us. Others might question that and there have been many post regarding that. I think we need to be true to ourselves and who we are. We are always going to be questioned by others, so I would say don't waste mental energy there. Express and love the women that you are at the level you can!

I have posted in the forum a few times that I do not have a very hairy body. I have also shared how lucky I feel to have been blessed with that genetic factor. I often feel as I have posted that statement that I could so easily offend or make others judge themselves. I wish you acceptance and love for yourself!

Be true to yourself,
Lauren

[Intertwined]

It doesn’t matter what others think about YOU !
Its what you think about yourself that counts !

I do not understand how anyone can tell someone what they are, or what they are not. Nobody knows that other person better than that person themselves.

What if I told you, I have certain gifts that most people would consider to be magic?

If I know exactly what I am looking for, I can find anything that is buried as long as I can walk over it, its called dowsing.

I also can heal injuries and illnesses with a touch, I am what’s called a Reiki practitioner.

[Melinda G]

Our species within coultures Seem to hate Thoes who do not look or act the norm of society and the "mainstreem" RELIGION of the coulture!
I think that Religion is The DOWNFALL of society!
IT has in the past even Downgrated and Persecuted the advancements of Science as well as those Who Think Differently!
DO NOT FORGET.. Religion = Government= Media = Popular Coulture! = Your environment.. Try to Change IT!
This is your brain on drugs.


NO! It's the other way round!

The more oddballs there are out in the street (bearded men in frocks, punks with 36 piercings, 8-foot giants, women riding zebras...) the more normal the rest of us look!

Let's hear it for the oddballs. I don't want to be the only freak in the village.
__________________
Katie B

Hmmm. You just might be on to something. :D

[jessielee]

we are so much more than we appear.
God is alive; Magic is afoot
God is alive; Magic is afoot
God is afoot; Magic is alive
Alive is afoot.....
Magic never died.
Leonard Cohen

i am afoot
as i hide
yet full of wonder.
and you are, too!

[MarcieM]

What if I told you, I have certain gifts that most people would consider to be magic?If I know exactly what I am looking for, I can find anything that is buried as long as I can walk over it, its called dowsing.
I also can heal injuries and illnesses with a touch, I am what’s called a Reiki practitioner.

Right, and I have some very nice ocean front property in Arkansas to sell you.

[Samantha Kelsey]

My pal's ex wife had a fair facial growth, gawd was she ugly!!!

[JoAnne Wheeler]

To each her own ! I would prefer to be hairless though.

Your sister,

JoAnne Wheeler

[MarcieM]

Marcie, don't you believe that? My wife is a Reiki practitioner and my brother-in-law is a dowser. Don't knock what you don't understand.
whatever...

[Byllie]

Folks, this discussion started with such great potential, but now it seems as if it's dribbling down to rather trivial banter. Can we refocus our discussion on the main issue? That is, how we can better serve and support each other with respect to our individual views of CDing?

Thanks!
Byllie