About mocking women

[michelle2b]

I had an interesting afternoon conducting a focus group with young female students (all genetic, I presume) at the local university where I do research. My goal on this Christmas eve - to get out of home and to go talk with the students about their perspective on transgender topics.

As I expected, there were both friendly and hostile women. I don't think I need to mention about the friendly ones - they were of course friendly and curious and understanding. The hostile ones make the subject of this thread because they introduced the subject of mocking women by cross-dressing, and the friendly ones joined in once they heard the terms mocking, mockery, and other synonyms.

After a lot of drill down questioning, as focus groups should ideally do, I figured out that the women seem to object to cross-dressing due to a few specific reasons. The most prominent one was that they believe that male cross-dressers are mocking women by presenting themselves with "oversized breast forms", "inappropriate clothing", "obnoxious behavior in public", "excessive sexual overtures while dressed as women" (I am quoting these based on the audio tape that I am playing right now from the focus group). They find it deeply insulting and objectionable that men would "depict" women in this manner. Yes, they were generalizing all cross-dressing men and saying that all cross-dressing men are mocking women. After a short brainstorming about this, one of the women pointed out that if there were any men who cross-dressed as women in a non-mocking way, she has probably never noticed them because they blended in very well.

These women are seniors in college or grad students in my area which is considered very progressive and open to LGBT people. Only 1 out of the 15 women I talked with (in 2 separate groups) said anything about religion as being the primary reason for their objections to cross-dressing men. Most of them said that they "don't care" that men "occasionally cross-dress", including their current or future boyfriends and husbands. They mentioned different reasons for their state of acceptance or tolerance of cross-dressing men. Most of them "need to know before getting emotionally involved" with a male who cross-dresses. Most of them denied that their boyfriends or husbands will ever cross-dress. I did not go too deep into their opinions about their current mates because I noticed in the facial expressions of a few women that they were uncomfortable with making the discussion too personal.

Of course, my findings cannot be extrapolated to the opinions of all women. I do not have statistically significant data to make any generalizations.

However, the point about mockery stood out very clearly as the most common opinion among all these women. At the end, none of them said that they did not feel mocked by cross-dressing males.

I am posting this to convey my findings from the women I met today.

[Alice Torn]

Very interestimg.

[jina]

I attended Oberlin college briefly (in Ohio). A very liberal school.. the kind where code topics like "women's studies" are prevalent (at least were at that time in the 80's).

This perspective does not surprise me at all. I remember going to see "It's a Wonderful Life" at the tiny little movie theater while there,.. and a lot of the women in the theater hissed and booed derisively when Jimmy Stewart's wife is shown as an "old maid - school marm type".. because he hadn't been born to marry her. I really don't think that the writers of the movie meant to suggest that she would be *nothing* without him... rather that the town without him would have been a hardened corrupt place where not much good flourishes (including an otherwise wonderful woman).

I have thought about posting a particular thread / subject here on CD.com, but I have been reluctant to raise a controversial possibility (also I would be afraid that it would misrepresent my underlying motives for CDing as well).

But anyway,... the thought is: Is CDing a pendulum swing (or a yin / yang attempt to balance) the bra-burning side of the feminist movement that came before ? Some women see the side of femininity that *we celebrate* as worthy of contempt and loathing. Maybe they *have* to see CDers motives as negative and ugly, so that they don't have to come to terms with the destruction of a birthright that has been (by many) tossed over the edge of a cliff. On this I feel that many women were deceived. I had a conversation with a very free thinking GG at work the other day where she basically said this.

Many people know the word misogyny. Few know it's counterpart misandry (in fact, the spell check doesn't recognize it). I think that writing off someone who was born male, expressing themselves as female (and in their own chosen way), and then saying that they are most likely mocking women,.. is self flattery, certainly self-centered, and more likely than not an expression of misandry at it's heart.

I drove a taxi for a while and took some college students home one night. A young woman in the back seat was kinda belligerent. Her guy friends were very nicely encouraging her to lighten up. She started going on about "what are relationships for anyway". When it got quiet I offered the perspective that ideally, relationships can eventually serve as a safe environment for the raising of children. Her reply was "so, I'm just a baby factory then" ? I have a hard time understanding the hostility necessary to generate a statement like that (a tragic family of origin story there perhaps).

For me, raising kids, keeping home fires burning and trying to look nice in the process would be a wonderful life. How that was ever made to look ugly and demeaning is beyond me.

[vivianann]

This focus group with GG's is a very good indicater of what we need to do when we crossdress in public, we need to make sure we do not make a mockery of being feminine. it has been my experience that how I dress, boobs proportionate with my body, makup done properly, and how I act goes along way to gaining the respect and support from GG's that I encounter when I am crossdressed. I like the feedback the GG's gave you in your focus group study, we need to take lessons from what the GG's said. I get alot of compliments from GG's becase of how I present myself when out enfemme, I do not pass, however I am accepted as I am because I do not over exagerate the female image, I also like the advice I get from GG's on how to look the part as best I can.:thumbsup:

[Anna the Dub]

Well, if we are quite honest, a lot of CDs do portray an unrealistic form of femininity, one that is out of step with the vast majority of modern day women. There is nothing wrong with that, but a lot of women will be offended by it. As Vivianann said above, we need to be careful how we portray ourselves so that we can't be perceived to be mocking women. I, myself, dress age appropriately, dress down a lot too (wear ladies jeans a lot, instead of skirts all the time), subtle make up, etc. I don't want to portray an idealised female, I just want to express myself as I feel inside, and I have to say the positive responses I have had from GGs tell me I am getting something right.

[Shari]

Michelle, I want to thank you for the amount of brain stimulation your post has provided me.
This is something that will take me awhile to fully digest before I can provide an intelligent response.
So the mindset is primarily mocking women?!?
Hmmmm.
They don't know us very well.
They don't know us at all.

[Babette]

Michelle,

Do you have any insights to their background such as rural vs. urban, which part of the country they came from, religion, generational differences, etc.

Babette

[Jonianne]

.......At the end, none of them said that they did not feel mocked by cross-dressing males........

Are you saying at the end, they all came away saying they felt mocked by cd'ers?

That is sad. I think most of us just want to identify with women in certain aspects of our lives, not make fun of them at all. I hold women's feminity as sacred, not to the point of worshiping, but of the utmost respect. I tread very lightly in choosing the type of female image I wish to reflect in myself.

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

[LACD]

I don't dress to mock GG's. I try to look the most fem that I can, though I know it's not to close. My Dear Wife and I have had many long talks over the past three years, and she realizes I don't dress to mock anybody. I would love to look more womanly but I work with what I have. My Dear Wife has really helped me get in tune with my femme side and dress so I don't look frumpy. I don't know any other CD's, I just know how I feel myself.

[Angie G]

That's interesting thank God my wife dosen't seem to be one of them.:hugs:
Angie

[deja true]

Thought provoking, indeed!

It occurs to me that many of us do tend to exagerate the physical qualities that appeal to us the most... It's an individual thing and, of course, we don't all present as caricatures of women, but, yes, some do...

Performing drag queens obviously do...that's their style... and quite possibly their motivation, too.

But the rest of us need to heed this message, and in conversations with our GG friends and new GG acquaintances, maybe this would be a good topic of conversation. To get a message of admiration and love across, rather than mockery...

[Intertwined]

This may be why I have never had a bad or derogatory comment from a female:o, not only do I not exagerate the feminine, I do not try to pass as female, when I do dress, I usually dress 50/50 feminine/masculine:rose2:.

Here is an example of what I went Christmas shopping last night (yes Christmas eve). No femine undergarments of any type, mens sweater, ladies white button up blouse, denim skirt, black patent high heels, no makeup or wig, black fingernails, black purse with cherries on it. :c9:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=927&pictureid=8554

[yms]

To be honest, I sympathize with these women.

What I found when I spent alot of time in the CDing community meeting other CDers was how many of them didn't like women. I knew one person who was transitioning and was so hostile towards her ex-wife that she once said to me that her ex was the kind of woman who needed to be slapped around to keep her in line.

I have often felt that CDing and transgenderism itself sometimes presents itself as an attempt by men to co-op womanhood - men defining what it means to be a woman. Too often, however, it is done in a superficial and objectifying manner.

While I agree that the group is a small sample, it certainly points the way.

Thank you, Michelle, for sharing this.


Yvonne

[Sara Jessica]

I have often felt that CDing and transgenderism itself sometimes presents itself as an attempt by men to co-op womanhood - men defining what it means to be a woman. Too often, however, it is done in a superficial and objectifying manner.

I have heard it expressed in a similar way Yvonne, that being born male gives us "male privilege" and that we try to keep that firmly in hand while expressing our femininity (again, often seen as expression in an objectifying manner). This trying to take something that we are perceived as having no right to can be seen as threatening.

[TGMarla]

As one who's interaction with the CD and transgender community is limited pretty much to this forum, and who has little interaction as a crossdresserwith the outside world, I can only speak for my own point of view. I have never tried to mock women in any way as a crossdresser. Quite to the contrary, I try to present myself as a woman as best I can. I try to be tasteful in my clothing, and meticulous in my presentation and with my hair and makeup. I do the best I can, and I have never meant any mockery or denegration in any way. It's a shame that many women may see it this way, but it's really not a surprise. Women have been largely objectified in our society as sex objects, while their mental and personal attributes have been over looked. Who needs a brain when a nice pair of tits will do, after all?

So there is one more hurdle for us to overcome. It is a hard one, too, since some CDs really do dress in mockery of women, wearing overly sexual clothing, oversized breasts, and presenting themselves as sex toys. Hopefully, women in general will come to see that not all of us are in it to portray that image, but rather, emulate women out of a need to express an inner femininity and out of admiration for a sector of humanity that often reflects what is best in us rather than what is worst.

[Toni_Lynn]

The most prominent one was that they believe that male cross-dressers are mocking women by presenting themselves with "oversized breast forms", "inappropriate clothing", "obnoxious behavior in public", "excessive sexual overtures while dressed as women"

This is most understandable and to my mind speaks of why we as CDers are at times our own worst enemies. I too find such things to be objectionable.

This us why despair of people like RuPaul and the more outrageous people in the drag queen scene. I feel they not only make a mockery of women , but also of us as CDers who are, shall we say, garden variety. This is not the public face we need, yet we as a group more often than not embrace them gladly. Shame on us.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[JoAnne Wheeler]

I think we crossdress to honor females - I never thought of it as mockery. How do they like like wearing slacks, sweat shirts, ties, etc. Are they mocking men ? I feel that the majority of my soul is femine and I do not feel that I am mocking myself.
JoAnne Wheeler

[Sue Too]

Merry Christmas----- I'm so glad somebody finally said it. I totally understand what these women were talking about when they said they felt CD's were mocking them.

When you think about it CD's that venture out in public come in two flavors. Those that pass or almost pass and those that don't. Those that do, probably dress to blend in and pass through the world largely undetected. Those that don't are the ones that these women feel are mocking them.

How would you feel if you were a well adjusted GG in a grocery store line and you see an individual in femme jeans---with a 40DD bra showing through his T shirt---- and a male haircut ----and a two day growth of beard. I would be darned offended. I know this happens--I've heard it described here on this forum.

I know there are those that say it is their right to dress as they want, and I guess it is, but the world does not work that way. Stop living in your own selfish little world and think what your actions are doing to the rest of the CD community.

Life as a CD is difficult enough without a few inconsiderate sisters gumming up the works. Whatever you do, try to do it with dignity.

Girls, I FEEL BETTER. Thank you Michelle for helping me get my soap box out of the closet. I said it and I am glad!!:2c:

Susan in Phoenix
56 and rainy

[Kate Simmons]

I believe it's all a matter of perspective really. Nothing is ever accomplished when people generalize things anyway. We could say the same thing, that women are "mocking" men when they wear clothing considered traditionally male(although mostly these days, we wouldn't be taken seriously). Some folks, whether men or women, seem to want it both ways as it suits them and make blanket statements concerning others rather than attempting to get to know them for who they are as people. As far as DQ's, one should expect exaggeration as the spirit of it , expecially a drag show, is usually somewhat "camp" to begin with.:)

[gennee]

I was brought up to respect women. I crossdress partially out of respect for them. I dress age appropriate and I don't wear anything that I normally would not. I see some of the hostility and understand it up to a point.

I also sense that some of the hsotility may be the result of what the roles of men and women actually are. Sadly, society sends out many mixed signals about masculinity and femininity. I enjoy being a husband and father just as much and I enjoy being a cd.

Gennee

[Alice Torn]

Jina, Amen! Especially what you wrote about throwing birthright over the cliff.

Just one more comment. Your last few lines, Jina, about family of origin affecting gg attitudes about being in safe relationship, and being mothers, looking nice. It is tragic, but true, that a vast number of people, me included, and gg's have father issues, and have been unable to have healthy close relationships with opposite sex. With gg's i see it over and over, again. Having an alienated relationship with my father, I understand, some, but so many, stay in denial, won't deal with their own issues, stuff, hide, deny, and instead point fingers at others. It is a difficult thing about human nature.

[serinalynn]

I however want to portray myself as a respectable woman and not demean or demorlize any woman or what women stand for.

[Sarah Martin]

I don't dress to depict my view of women - I dress to please myself and satisfy the inner woman.

I think the hostile members of your focus group are missing the point...

[jina]

Those were long thoughts I was trying to express,.. heartfelt too. I was glad to see them resonate with someone. I would have had to take up a whole thread page to really make my point (and who's going to read that !) :)

Yes,.. relationships with fathers are certainly a factor. I have discovered recently that what i thought were certain unusual personality quirks in some of my relatives, are probably actually some form of autism. My dad was completely emotionless and vulcan-like when I was growing up... I naturally emulated my mother (because I am a very emotional and feeling person). Since my brother's and nephew's diagnosis with autism,.. I'm realizing that my dad most likely has this too. He had no empathy whatsoever back in the day (he's been working on this in his old age to his credit).

All of that aside; a point that I was trying to make in the post above was that in a University setting, you probably have a much higher percentage of young women that might be buying in to the feminist philosophies of the past just out of some kind of "wanting to matter" motivation. Might be interfering with just seeing "people as people". It can be a funky kind of reverse sexism in my opinion. IE: Don't make us women doll up for you *men* (dirty word). And then: "wait a minute... you can't wear our clothes !". Why not,.. you co-opted men's in the name of your own need for self expression !? If yin and yang are true principles,.. the difference has to be made up somewhere.

I genuinely would have liked to have been born female. I feel I would have been very good at it in all of the best ways (I care nothing for so-called male privilege). I feel the feminist movement left a sad vacuum in the western world in this regard. It's not about mocking,.. it's about expressing legitimate feelings of inner beauty. On the other hand, bad taste is bad taste no matter which side of the gender equation you're on. :)

[Sophia de la luz]

Now, I appreciate the interest in "passing" or being true to one's inner woman. I enoy dressing in ways that really raise little attention in terms out of the ordinary. I like current styles and dress my age.
That said, I think it's perfectly fine for some folks to dress with oversized titties, or whatever else they feel like. And if some of them are consciously mocking the hyper sexed feminine in this culture, that's ok too.
Mockery is a great opener sometimes. Sometimes it's necessary to get down to the real issues when folks have their egos taking things so seriously.
Let's not forget, it's only clothing.

[Edyta_C]

Well, I think that the CD community does divide into sort of two schools. One which has utmost respect and honor for all things female, the another school which is dressing for shock factor. They enjoy the attention etc. While I like short skirts, I would no more wear one out than my wife would at our age.

But is quite interesting to hear that opinion from GGs. To me it is surprising to hear. Michelle points out that it is small sample to draw any sweeping trend from. It is an interesting sample opinion. I may not present as the cutest or most femme, but I would never mock intentionally.

Edy

[Annie D]

Most of us are in agreement that we crossdress not to mock women but to emmulate them. What comes to mind is how we watch women, not necessarily in a sexual way but rather admiring what they are wearing and trying to visualize how we might look wearing that outfit. Looking at the ads in magazines and in the newspapers, yes I am drawn to juniors and misses fashion because I think that the styles worn by these age groups are more colorful and pretty than those worn by older women. I have learned that I cannot wear junior's fashions, but it does get me in tune to what I like and as a result shop for the same styles in misses or in my case plus sizes. I also think that most of us try to dress in good taste, it is sometimes that we just can't pull it off all the time. I also believe that if we didn't pass but dressed enfemme24/7 we would not mock women and their fashion sense but would dress for the occasion, pretty much like we do in male mode.

[rachellenicole]

I think that the majority of women that are exposed to crossdressers see a very small group who are out in public a lot, in clubs, malls etc. who are over dressed and draw attention to themselves. A lot of attention is directed toward professional Drag Queens and Femals Impersonators also. I don't think the average female has had much exposure to the transgender community as a whole, so they can comment only on that aspect of our community. That said, I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone. I believe that most of us try to dress tastefully and age appropriate, and do not intend to mock or disrespect GG's. I prefer to try to fly under the radar and blend in, but thats just my preference.


Only my humble opinion

Rach

[Carin]

They don't know us very well.
They don't know us at all.



I think the hostile members of your focus group are missing the point...
No, they don't know us. Yes they are missing the point. How could it be otherwise. Neither is their fault.

If we care, if we want acceptance, we have to sell it.
If we want to show respect for women, we will make an effort to show that respect, and not with a 'take it or leave it' attitude.

I have sat in a TG support group and listened to people who transitioned years ago. By their attitude (and foul language) I could hear the testosterone coming through loud and clear.

We want to show our own individuality. And so we should. And we can do it with respect. Because we care about more than just ourselves.

[michelle2b]

While it was interesting doing the focus group with the students yesterday, I also find it interesting to read the messages here. I notice messages from different perspectives, different levels of empathy (ie. the ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes, for which we have to first remove our own shoes!), and different levels of maturity about the whole topic.

I was going to ignore some of the things said here, but a prominent TS person who saw this thread told me that the negative responses here are very unhealthy. So here goes ...

I understand that some of us have a negative perspective of feminists. Yes, the women I met seemed very progressive. They are all focused on various types of studies, including sociology, electrical engineering, medicine, etc. However, I think it is very immature for us to label such women as feminists just because they do not agree with our viewpoint. There is no evidence that any of them are "feminists". Labels are great to disregard valuable input that could help society progress. We label people as nazi, communists, etc, and these days we label people as liberals, feminists, environmentalists, nerds, etc as if to say that their perspectives are wrong, irrelevant, less important, etc just because they belong to a certain label, which we placed on them. Recently, I heard in a television program in which a guy was discussing his issues against a another person who is gay; he said that the person is gay and hence trustworthy and unreliable, and he did not want any such gay person to have any contact with his family. What if someone says that you are a cross-dresser and hence you are mentally insane, psychopath, who might also be a pedophile and hence your opinions and your votes don't count? Would you like to be judged this way? It is equally wrong to label some women as feminists and then claim that their association with feminists make their viewpoints wrong. We need to stop such name-calling. If you own a company that makes a product which nobody buys because your potential customers say that your product is useless, do you argue with and fight with those customers who say that, or do you work to identify why your product seems useless from the customers' perspective and then try to make it useful so that the customers would buy it?

It is a mark of a mature adult to be humble enough when we receive negative feedback to say, "I hear what you are saying, let me think about it and see if/how I improve the situation". It is sometimes possible that the negative feedback is coming from a wrong perspective, but it is our work to correct that perspective through our behavior and our actions. These women are not losing anything by not accepting you as a CD. You are the one who is losing support from the people who would have supported you if you would have listened and reacted in a mature manner. The moment some of us get belligerent and attack the people who provide us negative feedback, we lose all credibility and respect as a community as a whole. Those who do this are probably hurting us more than anyone else.

As I mentioned in my first message in this thread, the young women I met live in my area which is perhaps the most openly supportive area for LGBT people. This area has several cross-dresser and transgender groups. Topics about CDs/TS/TG/TV/etc are not hidden from the common people here, whether they are students or not. I do not know how each of the students personally feels about LGBT people, but they are smart enough to have got admission to other universities away from here if they really objected to LGBT people around here. These young women did not seem to object to cross-dressing per se. As I mentioned, they "don't care" that men "occasionally cross-dress". They also "need to know before getting emotionally involved" with a male who cross-dresses, which indicates that they have not shut the door to dating cross-dressing men. So I don't see why some people on this thread are taking this as an assault against their ability to cross-dress. The women were objecting to the way cross-dressing men that the women notice are present themselves, which to the women seemed like mocking.

[TxKimberly]

Honestly, that is pretty much the same reason I don't care for most drag performances. I think most more or less are caricatures of women, and yes, of cross dressers as well.

[Jonianne]

.......CD's that venture out in public come in two flavors.

Those that pass or almost pass and those that don't.

Those that do, probably dress to blend in and pass through the world largely undetected.

Those that don't are the ones that these women feel are mocking them.......

Susan, this is what ticks me off about the passing / not passing issue. I wish I could pass, but I do not. I guess that means according to some physicaly gifted cd'ers with femme faces, I should not go out because I don't look good enough. I've been told before that I don't have the face for it (by a hairdresser that worked with TV's). Well my wife pushed me out of the closet anyway and said "Joni needs to feel the sun on her face" and I resent being told that I present a problem to the CD'ers that pass.

I dress with the upmost respect to women, with whom I desire to identify with. I, as a male, don't have breasts so when I go out I don't put in fake ones at all. In fact I have never owned a bra. My hair is long enough now that I can style it and not have to have a wig. So I can now go out enfemme not wearing anything fake at all. I can just be me. At my age, I can get away with wearing very conservative and modest cloths like a lot of women in my area do. But still, I don't even come close to passing. I'm sorry if that offends some.

Susan, I'm sure you did not intentionally include those of us who simply don't have the physical characteristics to pass, but there is an underlining sentiment of an "us and them" attitude when talking about those who pass and those who don't. Just because we don't pass doesn't mean at all that we are trying to mock women.

added:
Susan, I'm sorry for comming across as harsh. I'm just in a period of stress and supersensitivity right now.

[TxKimberly]

. . . Susan, this is what ticks me off about the passing / not passing issue. . . .


Jonianne,

I don't mean to be argumentative, especially as quite a lot of pain is clear in your post, but . . . I've just re-read Susan's post just to be sure that I didn't miss anything, and as far can tell there was not even a hint of slamming those of us that don't "pass". Also, don't get too angry at Susan - remember she is just sharing with us the comments that women made to her. Their comments were about crossdressers that intentionally and greatly exaggerated the female attributes, not those that simply didn't make believable females. Not that I have the right to interpret their thoughts, by to my way of thinking, it appears they are irritated by the lack of respect, not a lack of ability.

[ElaineB]

I was going to ignore some of the things said here, but a prominent TS person who saw this thread told me that the negative responses here are very unhealthy.

The negative responses seem quite defensive to me ... and there is no reason for it; these girls were not talking about us specifically, because they do not know us (well except michelle2b perhaps). So this has obviously touched a nerve and ... one has to wonder ... are they on to something some of us do not want to admit to ourselves?


It is tragic, but true, that a vast number of people, me included, and gg's have father issues, and have been unable to have healthy close relationships with opposite sex.

If you combine this with the mocking idea it gives much worth thinking about.

Are we acting out the attributes we want but cannot get from a relationship with real women? Some of us sure are ... since they said so in different words here and in other threads. "Women nowadays are not feminine enough." That is the simplest example, a sentiment we have heard many times here. I admit openly that dressing is a recurring substitute for a normal sex life for me ... and I am always mindful to make sure it stays as just a panacea rather than becoming an obsession.

If we do meet a woman who is very feminine, are we likely to become more or less interested in dressing? From past experience, I find myself less interested ... at least until we fight about something. :heehee:

Are such women more or less accepting of dressing? In my experience again, I have found them less ... but that may also be because most very feminine women I knew were from cultures where gender boundaries are stronger than here.

Is it not natural that some woman would feel offended at what might be seen as a crude attempt by some of us to get just the bits of women we want? A living blowup doll, sort of.


Yes,.. relationships with fathers are certainly a factor. I have discovered recently that what i thought were certain unusual personality quirks in some of my relatives, are probably actually some form of autism.

Probably many of us can say this.

By the way and just for interest ... I have talked with many people on the autistic spectrum, and came to realize long ago that atypical sexuality is universal among them. Maybe the largest group are simply not interested in sex at all, but they include a much larger-than-usual GLB percentage as well ... and a large group of polyamory enthusiasts. I could not say how many crossdress but I would bet $50 that is also a larger percentage than usual.

[Ze xx]

Hi Michelle

Just out of interest, would you know how many of the women in your focus group realise the difference between cders and drag-queens? I'm asking purely since most gg's aren't involved in the cd community, if any of their gm friends crossdress they probably aren't aware of it, and possibly the only times that they have been aware of any form of cding happening is when it's a drag act, who do deliberately exagerate their look for the 'comedy' factor.

I also wonder, although I realise that you wouldn't know the answer, whether any of them simply weren't admitting to their SO's cding as it's not for them to tell. If I was in your focus group I probably wouldn't say in group that I lived with a cder as he's not ready for others to know, therefore it's not my place to say.

Mind you, my SO's ex-wife called him an abomination to her sex :brolleyes: I don't see how. My SO is a 'part time' cder so doesn't want to dress all the time, and even when he is dressed I'm definitely the alpha-female :hmph::p

[valenstein]

One realization I came to over the years is that I used to dress like a teenage tramp for the same reason some teenage GGs do. I wanted attention and didn't have much expereience acting as a woman. A lot of this was new to me. Even to this day it's easier to look more feminine wearing something a little sexier because it distracts me from noticing the male features I'm trying to get away from.

The word "mocking" implies an intent. Drag queens are over the top as a form of entertainment and generally do not crossdress for the same reasons we do (though there are people who are both). They do their caricature where it is expected, on the inside world of a stage, whereas some of us who do go over the top do it as part of real life. In that instance it's easy to see why some people don't distinguish a difference between the two.

I've never met another CD that was intentionally mocking women, but there are those who only latch on to the sexual aspects of a woman. If you are doing that in privacy, so be it, but if you live that way all the time in public, it is creating a mockery, intended or not. I would bet many genetic women feel the same way about other genetic women who behave in the same fashion, so it's not limited to CDs.

It doesn't mean you can't dress a little outrageous, but make sure your personality will show through. Shock factor works if you are an entertaining personality, just ask the Naked Cowboy in Times Square. Shock Factor + Leave Me Alone = Scary/Creepy

You need to crossdress mentally as much as you do physically if acceptance is what you seek.

P.S. - I'm in awe of Intertwined's confidence, and it totally shows through.

[immike]

One realization I came to over the years is that I used to dress like a teenage tramp for the same reason some teenage GGs do. I wanted attention and didn't have much expereience acting as a woman. A lot of this was new to me. Even to this day it's easier to look more feminine wearing something a little sexier because it distracts me from noticing the male features I'm trying to get away from.

The word "mocking" implies an intent. Drag queens are over the top as a form of entertainment and generally do not crossdress for the same reasons we do (though there are people who are both). They do their caricature where it is expected, on the inside world of a stage, whereas some of us who do go over the top do it as part of real life. In that instance it's easy to see why some people don't distinguish a difference between the two.

I've never met another CD that was intentionally mocking women, but there are those who only latch on to the sexual aspects of a woman. If you are doing that in privacy, so be it, but if you live that way all the time in public, it is creating a mockery, intended or not. I would bet many genetic women feel the same way about other genetic women who behave in the same fashion, so it's not limited to CDs.

It doesn't mean you can't dress a little outrageous, but make sure your personality will show through. Shock factor works if you are an entertaining personality, just ask the Naked Cowboy in Times Square. Shock Factor + Leave Me Alone = Scary/Creepy

You need to crossdress mentally as much as you do physically if acceptance is what you seek.

P.S. - I'm in awe of Intertwined's confidence, and it totally shows through.
I'm a closet CD,but I still love to look at well-dressed women,wearing a short skirtsuit&
a silky white blouse/w a blazer&either suntan or off-black pantyhose&heels&I usually
wonder how I would look in her outfit,with a blonde wig&make-up

My favorite are the young females working in a professional office,where they must
dress well,in skirts,blouses,heels,etc.

[jina]

There were references made to someone saying negative things earlier,.. and looking through the posts I didn't really see much of that. I then concluded that what was being made reference to was my bringing feminism (and specifically, university type feminism) into the discussion.

Mentioning historical feminism (the philosophies of which can be verified by the writings of it's adherents) in this context is not negative or positive. I was just speaking from my own personal experience. I gave several examples of situations I witnessed first hand.. it seems like if there was something objectionable there, then at least one of the specifics would have been mentioned.

I considered *myself* a feminist until my experiences at college. The feminism I encountered there was less about being pro woman and more about being anti male. That's just from my experience,... I'm not saying all women (or even a majority) are like this. I am saying that you might find a higher percentage of this kind of philosophy at a university. I was really just saying that universities are not a good cross section of women's attitudes to anything. In fact,.. if you were going to base anything about men on what most male university students say and do,.. well, I have to laugh (again based on my experience, I live in a college town and i associate with this age group almost every day).

I don't like conflict (a feature of my personality). I wasn't going to reply,.. but the last few posts were more balanced (one from a GG).. so i felt safe to say what i feel. I wasn't being negative,.. i was just stating my experiences. :)

[sterling12]

Question? Did you try to establish that there are clothing and perceptual differences between a Crossdresser, and someone who they may have seen performing in a Drag Show or Drag Queens who are frequenting "rough trade bars" to pick up men.

There are times when even the best of us doesn't get it quite right on clothing choices; we can chock a lot of that up to inexperience, sort of like teen girls who are experimenting. And, there may be times when we "let the guard down," and behave like guys in a dress. But, intentional mocking of women? I haven't seen it in The Ladies that I know. Their fondest wish is to be accepted into The Club.

Nevertheless your presentation and feedback session with GG's is rather enlightening. When we do "Outreach," when questions pop-up when we encounter women. We should make it clear that we are not "mocking" women. We are "emulating" women.

Perhaps with some candid discussion, perceptions might change. I would suggest if you can find a brave soul to do it, that you get someone from Our Community to attend one of these sessions and answer questions. I've been saying for some time that one of our biggest problems is lack of visibility and failing to actually clear up a lot of mis-perceptions. Maybe if they met and actually talked with some of us, they might not think we are "mocking" women.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[RobynP]

I understand these students point-of-view because whatever exposure they have had to crossdressers, men-in-dresses, drag queens, etc. lacks the explanation of the various motivations as others have posted.

One thing not mentioned is that we dress not like women but dress according to OUR perception of how women dress. Often our perception of how women dress is way, way off... Sometimes we are not emulating women in general but specifically our fantasy woman.

For example, how many CDs like to wear garter belts and stockings? pantyhose? bare legs? I think our answers would be out of proportion to how much women like to wear garter belts, stockings, pantyhose, or bare legs... Maybe we would like the women in our life to wear a garter belt and stockings more often.

I think in the context of everything in life, I think that strip clubs and pornography in general are a LOT more degrading and more mocking of women than anything else imaginable.

Robyn P.

[beenherelongtime]

interesting, it is a shame that these women can't see that most of us do not mock women. sure some of us do the bust too much, but i don't believe it is to mock.

[Cari]

On this subject I have some frame of reference.

I saw an FTM who was a bit vulgar; Flannel shirt, swearing dirty ect. He wasnt making anything up; all those behaviors exist in the masculine world and personally I'm not really proud of men when I see them. This wasnt an over the top drag king peformance.

I wondered why he had chosen what I consider to be the worst parts of masculine behavior to emulate.

The issue is all mine; had it been a genetic male I would have ignored it. I judged him much more harshly than I would have a genetic male, it was like "I dont mind if you join the club but dont bring us down".

Im not really proud of those feelings , but its a lesson I try to take into my own dressing. I wasnt born a member, so I have to work a bit harder if I want to join, even for a very short time.

I started out thinking I had a clean slate and could create an ideal or fantasy woman. Thats the perspective I judged the FTM from. Turns out that wasnt true in my case. With very rare exceptions I havent found too many looks I could copy exactly and feel comfortable in.

For me its never been about mocking women. I dont really see it as emulating or celebrating women anymore either. These days its about my feminine side finding her own style and personality. Some days its very feminine others it much more subdued but its more "mentally" comfortable and well fun than searching for an ideal or copying something.

Cari

[sometimes_miss]

I think much of the problem is that women don't understand why we CD any more than we ourselves do. And, very often when people are feeling upset about something, there's more going on than the initial thought of why they are upset about it. With women especially, they often lash out at one thing, while actually being upset about something else.
The following are just my opinions, but perhaps food for thought.

Women seem upset for the following reasons.
They rely on men for protection; any 'feminization' of us lessens the presumption of safety for them. That upsets them to some degree.
They see our embracing beauty, and female sexuality; both things that many women think should be of much less importance to men, as they see it as 'shallow behavior'.
They get the feeling of being 'fooled'; they thought they perceived who we are, and then find they didn't really know us at all. Most women think they are very good judges of character and personality. They get upset when they find they are wrong, based on our intentionally 'deceiving' them.
For those women who are in an intimate relationship with us, it disturbs the very image of what they found sexually attractive about us, and that may destroy, or severly damage the entire relationship.

Just a few thoughts. Again, just my opinions.

[Nicki B]

I had an interesting afternoon conducting a focus group with young female students (all genetic, I presume) at the local university where I do research. My goal on this Christmas eve - to get out of home and to go talk with the students about their perspective on transgender topics.

Michelle, can you explain a little more about the frame these discussions were set in and how you presented yourself during them? Did you introduce yourself to them as trans?

What examples were talked about? Did you feel they were thinking of drag queens, or the general trans population? Do they have any experience at all of the general trans population?

[carolinoakland]

I agree on some points, and they are valid. Some CD's do dress in a way that expresses their idea of femininity. And can be viewed as offensive to a gg, hell as a TS I sometimes find myself embarressed by the expressions of femininity I've seen some walk around in, and also mad at them for making such a mockery of themselves to the point where I have actually said to one over the top CD... " You don't own a mirror, do you?"
And I try to be understanding because I know where the idea that a fifty year old CD thinks they look like the woman they see in their minds eye is the one of themselves frozen in time when they went into the closet. The female persona had been in a time capsule and thinks the while the body is fifty, the mind and the image it see's is that of a twenty year old girl. Eh, I'm rambling. I understand some of the things the women are talking about, and some of it is just jealousy. I had at least two girlfriends who couldn't stand it that I looked better than they did, should have tried to learn something from me instead of dissing me. Carol

[Toni_Lynn]

I think in the context of everything in life, I think that strip clubs and pornography in general are a LOT more degrading and more mocking of women than anything else imaginable.
Robyn P.

:iagree:

And --- It is because these things make objects of women that they are degrading. When we remove the the 'human-ness' from a person and make them into an object where the sole purpose is one's personal gratification we degrade that person.

I have often spoken with my wife about this sort of thing - for example how strip bars that advertise as "gentleman's clubs" are as oxymoronic as the term jumbo shrimp. :) A guy I work with would go to places like that when we where in Montreal on business, and it only follows that his favourite term for women was to call them b*tches. These aren't places that true gentlemen go to.

But -- back to the topic at hand . I find interesting how we are discussing making a mockery of women here and how we should avoid that, yet in a post elsewhere at this same site, there is a post announcing the appearance of one of the more outrageous drag queens around. Hey, if that's what you like, fine, but as I said before -- talk about mocking women, showing them to look like clowns -- sheesh! To me such things are as offensive as minstrel shows with white people in black face.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[ReineD]

I wonder if the GGs who participated in the focus group know there is a difference between drag queens and TGs. CDers in the media have not been portrayed accurately and perhaps the participants believe that CDers are mocking women because they believe in the stereotypes? And how many of the participants have close associations with transpersons?

I also wonder, if the GGs do believe in the stereotypes, would they want to know about the CDing before becoming involved so they could make an informed decision about pursuing the relationship?

I do not know any SOs who think their partners are attempting to mock them. It is true some of the pictures I've seen in the Gallery show CDers with unrealistic female bodies, i.e. oversized breasts and hips, but I would guess these are not the individuals who are out in the mainstream. However, I believe anyone who is familiar with the TG community will understand this is done for two reasons. The first to emulate the ideal female form, the sexy, voluptuous woman who turns heads precisely because she has a body type that is not commonly shared among the general female population. The second to perhaps over emphasize the curves as a way to counter balance the angular male body.

Attitudes change once people develop knowledge based on personal experience, both for GGs who might begin to understand a transperson's psyche as she gets to know her, and the TG who learns to perfect her style with time and practice, developing a more natural look.

[Janie Gunn]

Vivianann:
This focus group with GG's is a very good indicater of what we need to do when we crossdress in public, we need to make sure we do not make a mockery of being feminine.
I disagree with that statement.

Sarah Martin:
I don't dress to depict my view of women - I dress to please myself and satisfy the inner woman.

I think the hostile members of your focus group are missing the point...

Yep! .. They should just get over it!

I dress to satisfy myself and if I were going to dress or act in a way to satisfy others, I wouldnt be being true to myself. Its something that is non-conforming in the first place, so why conform to doing it in a way that women may want? To hell with womens expectations of us, in my opinion. It seems daft to do it that way!

:hmph::rolleyes:
Janie

[Deidra Cowen]

True Story - I was sitting at my fav bar Le Buzz a few weeks ago. Was having a fun conversation with two lesbians next to me. Suddenly one of the lesbians was looking past me and had a look of disgust on her face. I turned and saw that one of my Tgirl friends had shown up and was coming over.

My Tgirl friend had on a miniskirt, a crop top blouse and wild assesories. It really was a vivid moment where I realized how GGs can percieve us. That night I was in a long skirt, nice blouse and had my libriarian look going with da glasses and up-do. The GGs were sweet to me but instantly went on guard when the 'wild' CD showed up.

I think your focus study was on to something. One thing I notice in Atlanta. If 10 Transgirls show up at some place. At least 6 of them will be sporting a street walker type look! So we hurt ourselves I honestly believe.

Then pile on the Drag Queens and what they do and you get the perceptions that GGs might have about us.

[Janie Gunn]

Deidra, I'm one of those with a 'street walker type look' (although poor description IMO). Alot of the time I have a hooker look goin on, and the girls I've met havent shown any disaproval, (some even know me both ways), but they at least respect the way I like to dress when in feminine mode and that is what these women who are making a fuss about how some tv's dress should do. This 'mocking' thing is a load of crap.

Janie

[Jennifer Giovannetta]

I take these young ladies who claim that Crossdressers are mocking women with a grain of salt. These same women likely have an issue with men in the first place.
To claim that Crossdressers are mocking women is a stretch if you ask me.

[Satrana]

However, I think it is very immature for us to label such women as feminists just because they do not agree with our viewpoint. There is no evidence that any of them are "feminists". You do not have to be an active feminist to hold feminist viewpoints as these have become widespread and mainstream. Their reactions as you described it was misandry as Jina correctly stated.


Labels are great to disregard valuable input that could help society progress.....Would you like to be judged this way? It is equally wrong to label some women as feminists and then claim that their association with feminists make their viewpoints wrong As these women proved by labelling CDs so inaccurately. I trust you had a discussion pointing out their stereotyping of CDs and why they were wrong in assessing CD's viewpoint on femininity?


It is a mark of a mature adult to be humble enough when we receive negative feedback to say, "I hear what you are saying, let me think about it and see if/how I improve the situation". That depends on what the negative remarks were. Society has already decided racist or sexist remarks are not acceptable. Some of these women's comments were clearly sexist so what is there to think about?
I would never expect a woman or a black person to be humble and report back on how to improve the situation if they have been incorrectly stereotyped through ignorance and bigotry.


It is sometimes possible that the negative feedback is coming from a wrong perspective, but it is our work to correct that perspective through our behavior and our actions. So we must change our behavior to conform to their point of view. How about just educating them to allow them to make more informed and accurate assessments? After all if we have to modify our behavior to fit in we could NEVER crossdress in the first place.


You are the one who is losing support from the people who would have supported you if you would have listened and reacted in a mature manner. The mature manner would be to educate them so they understood better.


These young women did not seem to object to cross-dressing per se. As I mentioned, they "don't care" that men "occasionally cross-dress". They also "need to know before getting emotionally involved" with a male who cross-dresses, which indicates that they have not shut the door to dating cross-dressing men. Standard NIMBY response. Their public response of acceptance means nothing as it is bad show for a woman to denounce any group out of hand. This is not proof that any of them were in fact open to CDing. You would have got a more accurate assessment interviewing each one in private to avoid peer pressure.


The women were objecting to the way cross-dressing men that the women notice are present themselves, which to the women seemed like mocking. No, they were objecting to men who sexualized their feminine appearance and did not conform to women's mainstream social rules. Any CD who picks a recognizable female image could be called on mockery - dressed in a housewife's apron?, a 1960s petticoat skirt? a high society woman? all forms of mockery. The horror!

I am very happy to hear the viewpoints of informed, mature, experienced GGs who know what they are talking about. Deciding the CD community should alter its behavior to satisfy ignorant, immature women advances our cause in what way exactly? We already know there is widespread ignorance, your discussion group has not told us anything new.

The CD community will not get anywhere unless we stand up and assert our rights, demand equality and be accepted for what we are. No other disadvantaged group got anywhere by pandering to conformity and mainstream ignorance.

[Carin]

When I see threads such as this, I am reminded of the William Golding novel "Lord of the Flies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies)".

There is an ongoing struggle in our community between individualism and conformance. In time it will sort itself out, but only if we can be respectful of each other and the community at large.

Respectful of a person's (male, female, TG or other) choice to consider an other's dress as outrageous
Respectful of a persons choice to want to conform and blend with the gender of their choice.
Respect that people come with preconceived or even prejudicial notions

We can discuss a topic, argue a point, take it or leave it, and push the commonly accepted boundaries of social acceptance. We should do all of these things. But the moment an individual shows disrespect of an others point of view, he/she loses credibility.

There is room for all of us, this path is indeed well worn. The gay and leather communities managed to figure it out. Religions don't come in only one flavor. And let's not put all genetic women in the same bucket either. No, let's not do that :hiding:.

We each have our own individualism. Some of us even have our own agenda. If we want it to be respected, we must show respect. How we do that requires individual thought. :2c:

Respectfully,

[Janie Gunn]

Satrana, you've said it well girl!!

[ChrisP]

Michelle,

As someone who has been in academia, and participated in "women's studies" groups, AND as someone who is involved in treatment and research on the human brain, may I offer something from Occam's razor?

There are some women out there who are just angry.

Who knows why and for what reason.

As for discussing the issue with them, that's fine, but don't expect to change their mind with the logic or reasoning of your argument. You can't talk someone out of a bad mood.

I give people like that space to be angry in. I'm not their therapist, and I don't perpetuate their anger.
Usually a little humor helps to defuse the situation too.

"How many women's studies students does it take to screw in a light bulb? That's not funny!!!!"

Chris

[Satrana]

Respectful of a person's (male, female, TG or other) choice to consider an other's dress as outrageous
Respectful of a persons choice to want to conform and blend with the gender of their choice.

The issue is not about respecting an individual's choice to conform to social norms or conservative notions, the issue is about these individuals pressing their POVs onto others and condemning those who do not conform by claiming their actions damage the whole community. That is the most disrespectful and intolerant notion of all.

I find great dignity in Rosa Parks refusing to conform and give up her bus seat but see none in the notion that if only all CDs wore sensible clothing we would be welcomed with open arms. The issue is not about our fashion sense, but that fact a social taboo exists against men displaying femininity.

All disadvantaged groups have gained their rights by taking the fight head-on tackling the source of the prejudice making society sit up and take notice and subsequently redefine social norms.

The mockery charge is nothing more than a distraction which only reveals ignorance and intolerance. I trust those who believe mockery argument are drafting an instruction booklet informing the rest of us how to avoid this charge by measuring how long our skirts can be, how high our heels can be and how large our breast forms can be before we trespass over this imaginary line in the sand.

[Holly]

...All disadvantaged groups have gained their rights by taking the fight head-on tackling the source of the prejudice making society sit up and take notice and subsequently redefine social norms...I, too, find the act of Ms Parks a courageous stand. But she did so in a manner that maintained dignity and respect. Personally, the members of the trans community I have met do not dress with the intent to mock or offend women in any way. And while I do think there is more we can do to educate women (and the public) about all facets of transgendered, we can also be more attuned to how we are being perceived and the reasons behind those perceptions. It is armed with that knowledge that we can then fight the prejudice against us. If we allow this to be a battle of our will against the will of society, we will all be losers.

[Satrana]

If we allow this to be a battle of our will against the will of society, we will all be losers.
Then how do you characterize the suffragette movement, the black civil rights movement, the gay pride movement? In each case the disadvantaged group did grind their will against society and in each case it was society that gave way after a period of initial resistance and everyone won by creating a fairer, more tolerant society.

It is not in the nature of a CD to take action and fight, partly because of our closeted existance, partly because of our desire to enhance our feminine qualities while lessening our masculine qualities. So we naturally hesitate at the very thought of taking more strident action and hope that somehow society will just learn to accept us gradually. I doubt this will happen because people who are not directly involved in a TG relationship could not care less what we are and see no reason to alter long held misconceptions.

This is precisely why we need to force the issue into the public arena if we want more widespread understanding and acceptance. If we don't act ourselves then society definitely will not act on our behalf. This is not a call to militancy but a call to finally get both feet out of the closet and organize regular public displays and parades to enable public discussion from which acceptance will eventually flow.

We need mainstream news media to cover our events, to interview us and do follow-up in depth articles on us. That requires the TG community to organize public events to trigger the news coverage. That needs the TG community to be sufficiently emboldened and self-assured to turn out in large numbers to make the difference. So our first steps as a community must be to jettison the all traces of guilt and shame and put aside the belief that niceness and conformity alone will win over the hearts of the public. It won't!

[Alex!]

I totally understand this perspective that some women feel about disrespecting women. Especially early on in dressing, many crossdressers dress according to an immature archetype. One hopes the person then evolves a more sophisticated look, but not always - this is especially true, I think, if the CD is a sexual fetish.

My objective is above all to express myself in a dignified way that respects women. I also do not want to look like a fool, ever.

Interesting thread!

[Rachel B]

I find this thread very interesting.......and a touch confusing. From what I can gather Mocking women is when men try to pass themselves off as women, by effectively changing the perception of gender. However, If they did it well, as one said, they didnt notice - so WHY wasnt this percieved as mocking?

I remember watching Trainspotting and The Crying Game with my mates (male). There are two bits in those films that caused a lot of issues with all of us. Both centred around a percieved female turning out to be a male in womens clothing. At the time of watching none of us had any idea (certainly in the crying game!). So I can certainly understand why women feel mocked and why men feel threatened.

Most of our lives we are brought up to believe what we see and not question it. So when it turns out we were wrong there is an instant feeling of deception. Possible explanation of why SO's react the way they do when finding out.

A lot of us are portraying/trying to portray ourselves as something we are not, and NEVER will be!

And I consider myself in this position to!

Hope this makes sense :battingeyelashes:

Rach

[Carin]

The issue is not about respecting an individual's choice to conform to social norms or conservative notions, the issue is about these individuals pressing their POVs onto others and condemning those who do not conform by claiming their actions damage the whole community. That is the most disrespectful and intolerant notion of all.
I agree that respect works both ways. There is room too for those that prefer to exaggerate their appearance. To say that the conservatives are the problem is the divisiveness that was my basic point. Every-one's POV is valid and entitled to be expressed, without the implication that it is a condemnation.


...The issue is not about our fashion sense, but that fact a social taboo exists against men displaying femininity.

A spouse considering her relationship with her TG husband might not see it that way. There are a lot of issues to consider.


...The mockery charge is nothing more than a distraction which only reveals ignorance and intolerance. I trust those who believe mockery argument are drafting an instruction booklet informing the rest of us how to avoid this charge by measuring how long our skirts can be, how high our heels can be and how large our breast forms can be before we trespass over this imaginary line in the sand.

Ignorance is not implicitly a condemnation. Nor is it derogoratory. It is just ignorance - a lack of knowledge of the facts. Intolerance stems for that ignorance and subsequent lack of trust. More media events, more rallies, more TGers running for public office. These are part of the process. As are the TGers out running everyday errands in a feminine form, and the TGers dressed for fun at the club.

The mockery question (it is not a charge) is just more information on how some people feel. If we respect that that is how some people feel, we can do something about it. If we attack it as a baseless subversion we close our eyes and ears and minds to communication.

[Sophie_C]

I think this really is based on an extreme lack of understanding. Most people with some t-affiliation fall in the category of truly being born in the wrong gender (who, dressing, never are confused with mocking) and those who get their rocks off by dressing in the other gender's clothes, which, being fetishistic, comes off as mocking, but is nothing more than a 'kick' for the person into it.

I believe flipping the coin and asking those GGs about FTMs and Drag Kings should make things highly apparent to them.

[GaleWarning]

This thread has been really interesting ... here is another take on the subject.

Yesterday (New Year's Eve here in NZ) I was down at the Sky City hotel/casino around lunch time, where they were getting ready for the evening's festivities. A young lady, in her twenties, I would guess, was waiting in the foyer to practise her trapeze routine. The small stage was set up in the foyer. She was standing around dressed in a blue t-shirt, bright pink panties with garters attached, pink and white patterned stockings with red bows on the back, and pink ballet shoes. Her hair was dyed a light pink, too.

I don't know why, but I felt acutely embarrassed for her. Her outfit bordered on being obscene, certainly for the surroundings and the time of day. And there were plenty of young children around.

I really do wonder about the foyer being an appropriate place for her to do her thing!

Later on, after she had finished practising, I saw her at the top of one of the escalators. She wearing red high heels instead of the ballet shoes, but the rest of her attire was unchanged. I found myself thinking that, if I were her and had any self-respect, I would have at least donned a skirt.

Who is mocking women in this instance?

BTW - Happy New Year to everyone!

[txrobinm]

A few years ago I was at a symphony concert with a girl friend (I was in guy mode). A woman sat down 2 seats over from us who got our attention in a negative way. She was wearing a black leather skirt (above the knee), high heeled boots and fishnets. She was in her late 40's (as is my friend). My friend called her (to me) a hussy. I agreed that the outfit was more appropriate for clubbing than the concert hall.

The point of those who say some of us need to tone it down is that the pornification of America is widespread. Most would agree that this is a bad thing for our society in general, and it is best for our CD COMMUNITY (none of us live in a social vacuum) to NOT contribute to this problem.

We all have the right to dress how we want. We can all SAY what we want, also. That does not mean that we are also free from the consequences of those statements (including how we dress in public). Additionally, how we act/dress in public contributes to the greater society's impression of others like us. Again, we don't live in social vacuum.

Rosa Parks' actions were non-conformist but contributed to righting a social injustice. Dressing like a hussy does not contribute to righting a social injustice, it merely reinforces already negative stereotypes about CDers. Dressing appropriately for the occassion en femme and going out does contribute to righting the social injustice against us. Please think of the greater community when going out- you represent more than just you.

[Melinda G]

Typical female whineing. If I really wanted to mock women, I would wear a pantsuit with big shoulder pads, clunky macho shoes, a short haircut, and talk on my cellphone, while driving slowly in the left lane, in a big SUV! :doh:

If I really wanted to mock women, I would stand in the checkout lane, watching the cashier ring up a basketful of groceries, and wait for the final total, then start rummaging through my purse for my checkbook, then rummage some more for a pen, while carefully not looking back at the long line of angry customers.

[Maria2222]

Thanks for the info, Michelle. I have to admit that I never would have thought of the mocking aspect. I know some CD's exaggerate things a bit, but I never heard any comments that would lead me to think they were mocking women.
I'm sure there are CDs who hate women, just like there are women who hate men. I'm not sure this has anything to do with CDing though.
It's amazing to me that so many of these women came to this conclusion. It's a puzzler.

[ElaineB]

Try not to get carried away nitpicking about exactly what "mockery" means and whether we do it. Remember, this is just michelle2b's summary of a bunch of different views expressed by different people. What they think is surely much more complex than that one extracted point.

It will probably be more productive to try to put ourselves in their shoes and understand their negative reactions. Whatever you may think about feminists and college students, hostile reactions from women are hardly uncommon. Ignoring and discounting them will not do anybody any good.

[Hali]

I donk think Cds are mocking women even though it might look like it. CDs wearing big (fake) breasts, a lipstick color that is out of fashion decades ago (may be taken from grandmothers bed side cabinate), outrageuos wigs etc..etc the list is endless i think as Cds try to copy women especially the way they dress and due to the fact that we (CDs) dont have any coach, and majority of us are closeted we end up teaching ourselves how to dress and grabbing and wearing any femme accessory to satisfy our immediate fetish needs.

Those who start CDing late tend to dress shabbily.........wen i first join flickr.com i wasnt that good in dressing enfemme but with some inputs from both GGs and tgirls things got better and most of all after coming out to my girlfriend she helped me out with my dressing, my wig, and the position of my breasts and how to present myself as a woman in general.

In a nut shell CDs might just be "over dressing" due to lack of fashion tips just like a "local" chick who doesnt know how to look chic, most CDs i know have really improved in their dressing over the years, from looking trashy or ****ty to looking mature and fab.

The desire to improve in dressing increases ten fold wen a CD starts nursing the idea of passing as a woman in public, sorry for the long post, byeee.

[Laura Evans]

Well, if we are quite honest, a lot of CDs do portray an unrealistic form of femininity, one that is out of step with the vast majority of modern day women. There is nothing wrong with that, but a lot of women will be offended by it. As Vivianann said above, we need to be careful how we portray ourselves so that we can't be perceived to be mocking women. I, myself, dress age appropriately, dress down a lot too (wear ladies jeans a lot, instead of skirts all the time), subtle make up, etc. I don't want to portray an idealised female, I just want to express myself as I feel inside, and I have to say the positive responses I have had from GGs tell me I am getting something right.

Ditto for me. As the responses to this thread suggest the perceptions expressed by the GG's in that forum are complex but we do need to be aware of what was being expressed, no matter what the reasons may be.

[Magickman]

My theory on this is that the angry women are upset and jealous, because they see crossdressing men as invading their territory.

Time after time, less than happy women comment that my nails are better than theirs, that I look better in a skirt than they do, and that they can't wear heels as high as mine.

When men invade and conquer women's traditional territory, it is natural that some women will be jealous and angry. I accept that, and do not seek to escalate conflict.

It is not my problem, though, if insecure women feel threatened by a man who better manifests traditionally female styles.

[ReineD]

The issue is not about respecting an individual's choice to conform to social norms or conservative notions, the issue is about these individuals pressing their POVs onto others and condemning those who do not conform by claiming their actions damage the whole community. That is the most disrespectful and intolerant notion of all.

True, but unfortunately these same judgmental people discriminate against anyone who doesn't fit their particular mold, be they men, women or transpersons.

But we are talking about two different issues here. Yes, members of the M2F TG community have every right to present in the gender they feel most comfortable without being discriminated against for expressing their femininity. And of course they should fight for this right by coming out of their closets into the mainstream and engaging in the activities you mentioned earlier. But this is quite a different issue than also attempting to change society's accepted rules of decorum.

Like it or not, certain forms of dress are more appropriate in some circles than others. Even though there is IMO quite a leeway, extreme looks with be judged. A young woman attending a five star restaurant would not be well received if she came in a bikini. If you want to find a job in the world of investment and finances, you don't show up for the interview in torn jeans and leather. Club wear is more appropriate in a club and not at church. Some sections of our cities are more liberal than others, but for the most part suggestive street wear characterizes someone as having loose morals. The reasons for this or whether or not it should be this way is outside of this discussion.

Unfortunately, until the media changes its outlook and begins to portray TGs differently, stereotypical mental images of hookers brand the CDer and this is why I am guessing GGs who have not had personal experiences with TGed individuals feel mocked or rather objectified when they think of them. So every time a TG goes out in the mainstream dressed like this, it reinforces the bias.

Oh, and GG hookers are judged just as harshly as the CDers who dress like them.

Obviously individuals are free to push the boundaries and disregard established dress codes, but unless there is a mainstream style revolution featuring risquee clothing, or society moves away from its puritanical view of sex, individuals dressing like hookers will be judged according to their style of dress. No matter what their gender.

[Raychel]

Maybe the reason these women feel this way is because the only CD'ers that they have seen are those that are mocking them. Those that dress to pass fit in nicely and are not noticed. It is a shame that thesde women feel this way and really do not know the true crossdressers. Those with families and regular jobs just trying to enjoy lofe when they can.

Sure there are those that are still called crossdressers that fit the description that these ladies have. But there are alot more crossdressrs that dress to enjoy the feel of the fine clothing that the women get to enjoy, and drss more to emulate them rather than mock them. We are the ones that would be appaled to even think of mocking a women, but more worship the ground they walk on.

I was sitting outside a local strip mall last summer, waiting for my wife to come out. And in walks this guy wearing pink hotpants and a tshirt with a bra and forms. Any man that had any respect for women at all would never step out in public that way. They are the ones that these women see. And that is where they are forming thier opinions from.

I am not saying that no guy should ever dress this way, If that is what you are into, then keep it in your own place, Don't make a fool of yourself and give us all a bad name.

And for those that do dress to fit in and these women do not know. First of all GOOD JOB. And next time you are out dress and see that you can help a woman, Do it. Stop and hold a door for them. Pick up that can of beans that she dropped. Not only will they apprecaite the help, You will also get noticed in a good way.

:2c:
Raychel

[Janie Gunn]

I am not saying that no guy should ever dress this way, If that is what you are into, then keep it in your own place, Don't make a fool of yourself and give us all a bad name.

?? And who do you think you are, anyone will do so as they please, get over it.
This mockery thing is a pile of crap. Its not unless its a persons intentions to do so, and I dont!

[Jennifer Giovannetta]

I posted a reply on this thread once. But this is subject that I feel very strongly about. These women who claim that we are "mocking" them, I feel, have an agenda. I have been a member of this forum for a while and it has been a integral part of my self discovery of crossdressing. And I have to say that I NEVER EVER read or at least got an inkling that one of the male to female crossdressers dressed that way to mock women. On the contrary, it appears that we want to emulate the women we admire.
The women who claim that we are mocking them really make me laugh. They are the same ones who have a problem with a man holding a door for them.
Sometimes I feel that this is an attempt to create another obstacle for us to overcome. We already have enough negative stereptypes to counter.
What do these women want to accomplish? Would they like us to stop crossdressing? Thats not going to happen.
Its almost like they are saying, equal rights for me, but not for you.

[Satrana]

If we respect that that is how some people feel, we can do something about it. If we attack it as a baseless subversion we close our eyes and ears and minds to communication.
What can we do about it? Many CDs will always aim towards the more flamboyant, how do you propose to stop this? Do these women and sympathizing CDs also believe that GGs with large breasts and short skirts also mock women?

The whole issue is highly subjective and therefore an unnecessary distraction since everyone judges this subject differently. There is no agreeable solution. If you are easily annoyed by such matters then nothing short of fashion totalitarianism will satisfy you.

And the idea that dressing conservatively demonstrates respect for women just dumbfounds me.


Oh, and GG hookers are judged just as harshly as the CDers who dress like them. We all understand that some people get upset when social decorum is broken but these rules don't mean anything. When bikinis and mini skirts first appeared they were considered scandalous yet society seemed to have no problem adapting very quickly and they became mainstream. Any man who crossdresses is by definition breaking decorum so it is guaranteed that someone will be upset by our very existance.

Funny how we would have no problem disregarding the viewpoint of a person who hates the existence of CDs yet we are supposed to be sensitive to people who are easily upset over fashion decorum.

But I think the issue is more subtle than just presenting a ****ty look as Katie said:

No CD who dresses as a punk girl with tattoos and multiple piercings will get accused of mocking women if she's 5'6" and only mixes with punks

The underlying issue is that CDs are not generating new looks that do not already exist with GGs. We could dress outrageously and so long as we were accompanied by GGs who were dressed similarly then we would never be accused of mockery. The real issue is that our height and build and penchant for more feminine clothing than is normally worn by GGs makes us stand out, especially as we are usually alone, which immediately makes us targets for those who harbor prejudices.

I see a very similar parallel between CDs in public and women first entering a previously exclusive male working environment. The first women to do so had a difficult choice - either act like a guy so as to minimize the differences and hopefully generate acceptance or to remain true to themselves exhibiting some feminine behaviors that irked the men creating resentment.

CDs are faced with the same dilemma because we are entering an exclusive women's place. Some women are appalled that we did this, others conclude that they will tolerate it so long as CDs adhere to the unspoken rules and guidelines governing GG society. Of course this makes no allowance for the fact that CDs are not GGs and so we should be allowed to express our own viewpoints and fashion statements.

[Toni_Lynn]

I have been a member of this forum for a while and it has been a integral part of my self discovery of crossdressing. And I have to say that I NEVER EVER read or at least got an inkling that one of the male to female crossdressers dressed that way to mock women. On the contrary, it appears that we want to emulate the women we admire.
The women who claim that we are mocking them really make me laugh. They are the same ones who have a problem with a man holding a door for them.
....
Its almost like they are saying, equal rights for me, but not for you.

Jennifer -- I mostly agree with everything you have said. One little point though is about the fact that you have never "got an inkling ... dressed that way to mock women...we want to emulate the women we admire. "

Pardon my snipping there. I hope that I haven't mangled what you said!

Okay -- where was I -- oh -- they reason you haven't gotten that inkling is because we here are for the most part a very respectful and dare I say it, 'gentlemanly' bunch of ladies! Every so often something crude, rude, and disrespectful attempts to slip through but the mods usually nip it in the bud, and the person sees that this isn't that kinda place and departs.

The seamier side of things is on CD groups at places like Yahoo Groups.

As to your second bit, IMHO, the women who feel threatened by us -- oh heck here comes the generalisations -- would be ones who themselves have embraced the the negative aspects of some men's characters as their own -- all in the name of their own 'equality'. In other words, their quest for equality has taken them down and made them equal to the 'gentleman' (sic) who sit in strip clubs. We are the embodiment of that which they despise in themselves, kindness, gentleness, compassion, romance, and love.

Which ties back the first bit .. when I read about that which we love about women, (there was a thread about that a few months back), it was filled with kindness, gentleness, compassion, romance, and love in women, but also toward them.

Only a bully of a woman would see that as mockery.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Tess]

a point that I was trying to make in the post above was that in a University setting, you probably have a much higher percentage of young women that might be buying in to the feminist philosophies of the past just out of some kind of "wanting to matter" motivation. Might be interfering with just seeing "people as people". It can be a funky kind of reverse sexism in my opinion. IE: Don't make us women doll up for you *men* (dirty word). And then: "wait a minute... you can't wear our clothes !". Why not,.. you co-opted men's in the name of your own need for self expression !? If yin and yang are true principles,.. the difference has to be made up somewhere.


I tend to think along the same line. Ask this question of university students at a liberal institution in a liberal area of the country and you are likely to get an extreme answer. Even the girls that don't feel strongly about the topic may answer as they think their peers would expect them to answer. That isn't to say that there isn't truth to their position, but it isn't necessarily something you can extrapolate to women across every area of the country, every age group, or socio/economic condition. What it does show is that the public face of cross dressing leans toward the female impersonator side of the spectrum and that the over the top presentation will make the biggest impression.

[MsSamanthaErica]

I agree...it is *not* mocking. I know deep down that I look at a beautiful woman and want to be closer to her. Not hurtful, not spiteful, not mocking. Just desiring to be closer to her.

Many times I look at a woman and admire how well they are dressed, how beautiful they are, and so on.

It seems to be that a lot of sisters have a similar outlook, I know I do!

~Samantha

[Sheila]

The seamier side of things is on CD groups at places like Yahoo Groups.

Toni-Lynn


Thanks a bunch Toni ................... I started a yahoo group for local cdr's and their SO's ................. gives me a sense of WTF am I doing, when I see lines like the above.

We have a hard enough time with the general public at large making assumptions and accusations with our own Bloo*y lot starting crap like that :sad:

[Toni_Lynn]

Thanks a bunch Toni ................... I started a yahoo group for local cdr's and their SO's ................. gives me a sense of WTF am I doing, when I see lines like the above.:

No offense intended .. its just that there are more people on Yahoo Groups showing their genitalia in public and more groups that permit that than their will ever be here.

If you have a good respectable group there, good for you.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Carin]

I have been a member of this forum for a while and it has been a integral part of my self discovery of crossdressing. And I have to say that I NEVER EVER read or at least got an inkling that one of the male to female crossdressers dressed that way to mock women.

I think the subject is not about Crossdressers intentionally mocking women. I agree that this is not a discernable motivation.

The relevant information is that some people feel that over the top exposure is too much, and when done so in the name of expressing femininity is an insensitivity if not a mockery of that, even if it is not the intention. We all know that this is not a valid generalization of crossdressing and crossdressers. It doesn't hurt for us to be aware of the various perspectives that are there.

[Lisa Catherine]

When I'm en femme in public, I try my best to pass, and I dress conservatively and respectfully as I can. Gina Lance said it best in her book, "Get Dressed" when she said that the mass media will always publish and broadcast the outlandish character in the purple wig as the mainstream of crossdressers in order to sell advertising, they don't care about telling the real story.

[linnea]

Mockery? Well, there's no sense of mockery in my crossdressing, of others or self, men or women. I'm just trying to look good in whatever way I present myself.

[Melinda G]

I certainly don't dress to mock women. But if I did, there's so much to mock, and so little time.:doh:

[battybattybats]

Image-ism.
Discrimination based on clothing, appearance, 'beauty' etc.

When only passable and/or conservatively dressed CDs are not mockeries these women are being as image-ist as a womens magazine showing only size-0 models.

[Melinda G]

If I really wanted to mock women, I would drive with a cell phone in one hand, a makeup brush in the other, and steer with my elbows.

If I really wanted to mock women, I would talk on my cellphone in the bank driveup lane, and when I got to the driveup, I would send the carrier in empty, and ask the teller to send out a pen, and sit there filling out papers, and making out my deposit slip, and signing checks, while holding up a long line of angry customers.

If I really wanted to mock women, I would go to the supermarket, and park my shopping cart right next to another woman, completely blocking the aisle, and stare at the peas for five minutes, trying to decide between the Spartan or DelMonte brand, while carefully ignoring the angry shoppers waiting to get by.

If I really wanted to mock women, I would go to the lingerie dept, wearing my pantsuit and mens shoes, and stare daggers at the gentleman browsing the thongs.:D

[Toni_Lynn]

Image-ism. Discrimination based on clothing, appearance, 'beauty' etc.

Boo-hiss! Just because something is pointed out as being unacceptable behaviour doesn't make said 'pointing out' into discrimation or an '-ism'.

That kind of thinking would lead us to dismiss Hitler or Stalin as being 'very bad boys' or that to say that the fact they aren't included in the list of great political leaders of the 20th century as anti-labial-hirsute-ism!

Toni-Lynn

[heidi99]

In the initial post, I don't recall seeing any statistics regarding how many of the ladies actually knew someone who crossdressed or if the opinions shared were strictly based on visual perception of any crossdressers they had possibly seen. I find it a bit unsettling that (if it was based strictly on the visual dynamic) these ladies felt it alright to form an opinion that indicated they were being injured in some way by the way someone else was dressing.

Reading too much meaning into how someone is dressed. Hmmm. How is that different from a man thinking a woman is interested in having amorous relationships simply because she is wearing a mini skirt and provocative blouse? We (men) are told that it is inappropriate to read such a message into an outfit. Good for the gander but perhaps not good for the goose? Additionally, are we (men) allowed to presume some kind of hidden message from the fact that most women wear slacks/jeans rather than skirts?

I personally dress because it is FUN. I DO have a mental image of what I find attractive in the opposite sex, and it does manifest itself in the way I dress. I don't see very much of that mental image in today's society, so I guess I am providing it to myself. If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad (thanks Sheryl Crow.)

I've tried not to rant, but this thread kind of struck a nerve.


If I really wanted to mock women, I would go to the lingerie dept, wearing my pantsuit and mens shoes, and stare daggers at the gentleman browsing the thongs.:D

OMG, Melinda! That's a good one. :hugs:

[Melinda G]

Glad I found one you liked. It has happened to me.:D

[battybattybats]

Boo-hiss! Just because something is pointed out as being unacceptable behaviour doesn't make said 'pointing out' into discrimation or an '-ism'.

For something to be unacceptable it must have a reason for being unacceptable that is cogent, logical, fair and impartial. Judging people on their choice in fashion is every bit us wrong as doing so because of their choice in religion discriminating against people because of their attractiveness is just as wrong as doing so on their skin pigmentation or natural body-shape.

This is because the same WHY's are involved in both.
A failure to treat others who are different as being equals to oneself. Judging people on arbitrary matters or worse, on stereotypes. Extending personal subjective tastes over others for whom they do not apply.

Just because someone calls something unacceptable does not make their judgement fair, valid, cogent, rational, ethical etc.

And discriminating against another person for not sharing ones own subjective personal taste in clothes or for not sharing ones own religious denomination or for having had their body change via too much testosterone to pass or for having been born with certain skin pigmentation is however able to be fairly validly cogently, rationally, ethically called unacceptable.

It's the WHY that matters.


That kind of thinking would lead us to dismiss Hitler or Stalin as being 'very bad boys' or that to say that the fact they aren't included in the list of great political leaders of the 20th century as anti-labial-hirsute-ism!


I have no idea how you come to that conclusion! Seeing as the fascist oppresions from each of those is much more comparable to those discriminating against CDs and GGs who like to wear short skirts, or Goths for their style. You seem to be complaining that, to use analogy, saying up is up is in fact saying that it is down and I can't see how you get to that conclusion!

Especially as the facial hair of Hitler and Stalin are incidental to their place in the villains of mankind. It is immaterial and irellevant correlation and very much not causation! text-book logical fallacy.

Consider the difference between person A telling person B they are bad for liking the colour red because it is ugly and treating person B as unequal because of that and then person B telling person A they are bad for imposing their subjective tastes over others.

Person A is wrong. Person B is not wrong. Person A is acting contrary to centuries of Enlightenment thinking let alone simple basic logic on fairness equality and freedom, person B is upholding them. It is not the calling the other bad that is wrong or both would be equally wrong. Nor is it about who is right about the colour red being ugly or beautiful because as that is a subjective personal truth both CAN and ARE right when speaking purely for the truth of the colour for themselves. It is that Person A has a WHY that is logicly invalid outside of the self and person B has a WHY that is logicly valid outside of the self.

Both are correct about the colour red but only for themselves. Person B is not telling person A to like the colour, but to treat person B as an equal capable of being subjectively different.

This is the way liberty and equality can co-exist, liberty limited only by equality. Person B is defending both, person A opposes both for person B and is claiming inequal liberty for themselves at the expense of person B's liberty.

Hence image-ism is discrimination and is wrong. The very reasons that make racism wrong and religious bigotry wrong make it also wrong. That's Q.E.D. i'm afraid.

[jessielee]

thank you, ladies, for your insights.
very interesting.
i agree with those who observe that we, for the most part, truly respect ggs and that we attempt to fit in, to blend in, which means not drawing attention via gross caricatures or exaggeration of mocking.
however, the perception of mocking may come from generalizing on their part by grouping transvestite "drag queens," those intent on causing a stir or presenting a stereotype, along with other, more respectful dressing, as i see modeled here by you.

[Nicki B]

Michelle, can you explain a little more about the frame these discussions were set in and how you presented yourself during them? Did you introduce yourself to them as trans?

What examples were talked about? Did you feel they were thinking of drag queens, or the general trans population? Do they have any experience at all of the general trans population?

Michelle - would you come back on this? :battingeyelashes:

[battybattybats]

i agree with those who observe that we, for the most part, truly respect ggs and that we attempt to fit in, to blend in, which means not drawing attention via gross caricatures or exaggeration of mocking.
however, the perception of mocking may come from generalizing on their part by grouping transvestite "drag queens," those intent on causing a stir or presenting a stereotype, along with other, more respectful dressing, as i see modeled here by you.

I don't blend in as a guy, why should I as a woman?
I stand out as a man, why shouldn't I as a woman?

It's fine for people to blend in if they choose to, but expecting people to do so, judging people who don't is inexcusable.

The culture of socially enforced conformity has, and I mean this entirely literally, destroyed many cultures and countless lives. It is wretched and evil.

For those who like the current styles and fashions of course they should wear them. For those who choose personally to blend in, go for it.

But as a Goth, as I have indiginous relatives, as a member of a multi-cultural society, as a crossdresser how can I fairly claim my right to dress how I please without defending those Drag Queens?

I can't and no-one can!

So I'll stand beside the Goths and Emos and Punks and Hippies and Ferrals and Rockabillies and Bogans and Women in short skirts with low-cut tops and the leather and latex wearers and drag kings and queens and anyone else who harms no-one but chooses to look different or whose personal style is incidentally different from the mainstream.

It's the right thing to do. It protects womens rights, transgender rights and it protects human rights.

Its vital that people be free to express themselves differently. Its essential to a healthy society for differences to be respected. And we cannot have equality unless we stand up for the right of people to dress differently without fear of discrimination.

[Janie Gunn]

Absolutely! Well said battybattybats.

[Satrana]

Boo-hiss! Just because something is pointed out as being unacceptable behaviour doesn't make said 'pointing out' into discrimation or an '-ism'.


What exactly is the unacceptable behavior? Dressing in a style they disapprove of? Well boo-hiss to that idea. If their fashion style offended my senses do you think they would change for me?

Let's remember that as CDs we already offend many people just by existing. We are the embodiment of unacceptable behavior. How can we then split hairs and debate how short a skirt must be before it becomes unacceptable to a certain section of society.

I am not angry at these women as they answered precisely how I would expect linking CDs to drag queens and overt sexual practices. What I believe is unhealthy is some people jumping on these women's ignorant comments as justification to propose conservative conformity for the whole CD community and condemning others. This only validates ignorance.

If we know ourselves that we are not mocking women then we should not bow down to pressure but instead we should hold our heads up high and be ourselves and educate those who do not understand. Unless of course you agree that CDs are mocking women.

[Sandie43]

I find when talking to men on work sites that they mock everything that is not manly even saying they never buy their partners flowers and yet I have seen one in a florist. Drag Queens, Croosdressers, Gay's, Men in suits are all targets for them, If one starts it seems that they all start and all stay on that theme. Could the same be happening with this group? Once the image of a man in a dress was in their head that typical image of big boobs, short skirts, kinky sex was their focus. Perhaps a few pitcures of crossdressers from all areas of the cross dressing community be shown before the discussion starts, would give a different response. It would also appear that the more people in a group the less likely they are to accept something out of their norm. :2c:

[Toni_Lynn]

What exactly is the unacceptable behavior? Dressing in a style they disapprove of? Well boo-hiss to that idea. If their fashion style offended my senses do you think they would change for me?

My boo-hiss is actually more about the fact that anything that is a form of criticism seems to be made into an -ism. Batty's view that it is image-ism is equally image-istic in and of itself as it specifically was critical of size-0 models who should, by the standards set by one not wanting to be guilty of image-ism, be allowed to look and promote what they want too also.

My point here and in my statement is that one can find any criticism to be an -ism of some sort. I may not have stated my case appropriately, but I get very riled up when I hear a bunch of politically correct warm fuzziness passed of as an excuse for a reason for people feel a certain way about things.

I fail to see why one cannot be critical of those in the TG community who dress in a manner that invokes scorn upon us, while at the same time it is fine to cry foul when a commercial or TV show made outside the community does the same. Its kind of like why the rap/hip-hop community can get away with using the N word yet anyone away fropm that can't. If something isn't right or offense, it applies to all.

Toni-Lynn

[victoriamwilliams1]

Thats interesting. I think the perception they have is based on how we are presented on television shows like Springer and others. The question would be interesting if it was reversed if the woman was a CD and it was a room full of men that where asked the question.

I think that a few are dressing in an over exaggerated style on both sides of the CD/TG world, however I think they need to see those of us who not only dress for acceptance but those of us who if they were in the room with them they would be surprised.

I think a good group would be to include a TG/CD who has blended and if the same type of responses come have the person reveal themselves as well as photo support of those who do not over exaggerate.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

My theory on this is that the angry women are upset and jealous, because they see crossdressing men as invading their territory.

Time after time, less than happy women comment that my nails are better than theirs, that I look better in a skirt than they do, and that they can't wear heels as high as mine.

When men invade and conquer women's traditional territory, it is natural that some women will be jealous and angry. I accept that, and do not seek to escalate conflict.

It is not my problem, though, if insecure women feel threatened by a man who better manifests traditionally female styles.
This as got to be the worst theory I have every heard... and I can not believe that some of you think this way about women......no the angry women. Look at all the sh#t that women had to go through and still look at the BS that women have to go through today and now women are told that they are angry, upset and jealous by some man in dress because they feel that cross dressing man are invading there territory ....PLEASE PLEASE SOMEBODY CALL OPRAH.

I feel that we are blaming drag queens for the mockery because they go over top as some of you had said and that is very unfair, all drag queens are not the same, you have the drag queen who is a celebrity impersonator and the drag queen who is into high theatrical exaggerate, but both are entertainers and some are very professional. While a lot of you were hiding in your closet drag queens were out helping or community.

I get the feeling that some of you feel that you are better then drag queens because you dress more appropriate

When a women sees another woman in a very short tight dress she thinking tramp or that is very unappropriated to wear, but if she sees a man in the same outfit what do you think she is thinking then.

We are so quick to jump on people when they attack us for what we do and here we are doing the same thing, you think when you put on that wig and dress with that hand bag you came up with something new........? dose Cindy mock women......yes she dose, do cross dressers mock woman......well next time you put on the wig and that dress with that hand bag ask your self that.



LA CINDY LOVE

[jessielee]

But as a Goth, as I have indiginous relatives, as a member of a multi-cultural society, as a crossdresser how can I fairly claim my right to dress how I please without defending those Drag Queens?...
It's the right thing to do. It protects womens rights, transgender rights and it protects human rights...
freedom is axiomatic, ideally.
no one said anything about forced homogeneity.
my point is that those who value femininity so much as to emulate it cannot be logically accused of mocking it.

[Dr.Susan]

Of course some crossdressers mock women. The proof can be found at any of the "less polite CD websites" and public sites, including myspace and youtube. A veritable sea of crossdressers displaying nothing but their thonged rear ends and platformed shod feet.
If this is not insulting to women then I don't know what is.

[battybattybats]

My boo-hiss is actually more about the fact that anything that is a form of criticism seems to be made into an -ism. Batty's view that it is image-ism is equally image-istic in and of itself as it specifically was critical of size-0 models who should, by the standards set by one not wanting to be guilty of image-ism, be allowed to look and promote what they want too also.

Your point would stand if someone wanted to ban size 0 models. However if someone wanted a fair representation of diverse body sizes and shapes rather than a small minority being represented as a standard because the inability for the vast majority to meet it helps sell products to them that does not in any way mean that size 0 people cannot remain represented.

Compare: One need not remove white people from South African tv programs to include black people on tv when apartheid was dismantled. To complain about over-representation of white people ion tv remained perfectly valid.


My point here and in my statement is that one can find any criticism to be an -ism of some sort. I may not have stated my case appropriately, but I get very riled up when I hear a bunch of politically correct warm fuzziness passed of as an excuse for a reason for people feel a certain way about things.

I don't see why the line isn't clear. To criticise for an unethical action would always be valid. To do so for merely being different always invalid whether its about age, hair style, skin colour of being a woman. This is logicly distinct and purely rational.


I fail to see why one cannot be critical of those in the TG community who dress in a manner that invokes scorn upon us,

Perhaps because the scorn is itself utterly wrong. Because by criticisng them we become complicit in that wrong.


while at the same time it is fine to cry foul when a commercial or TV show made outside the community does the same.

Because one is individual presentation and the other is representation! If the latter is disproportionate to the community it is wrong. Happy low-IQ housewives that enjoy housework and exist for the happyness of their husbands do exist, but when they were the majority of representations of women excluding all those who were intelligent and wanted careers and independance and equality etc then it was harmful bad and wrong.


Its kind of like why the rap/hip-hop community can get away with using the N word yet anyone away fropm that can't. If something isn't right or offense, it applies to all.

Clearly though the context of the speaker can vastly change meaning. But that is not directly comparable when the causal issue is about representation of diversity rather than of a minority raised asstereotype as is the case in both the size 0 model examples and CD media presentation ones.

Some African Americans like watermelon and fried chicken just like plenty of white people do but the stereotypical dissproportionate representation of black people doing so in american cinema of the past was different from an individual black person happily eating some.


This as got to be the worst theory I have every heard... and I can not believe that some of you think this way about women......no the angry women. Look at all the sh#t that women had to go through and still look at the BS that women have to go through today and now women are told that they are angry, upset and jealous by some man in dress because they feel that cross dressing man are invading there territory

Actually this is exactly the views of some women, amongst the 2nd wave/radical feminists like Germaine Greer who have actually compared crossdressing and SRS as a form of rape by the man on women!



freedom is axiomatic, ideally.
no one said anything about forced homogeneity.
my point is that those who value femininity so much as to emulate it cannot be logically accused of mocking it.

I agree about freedom, some are discussing forced homogenity via social pressures of criticism however, the latter point is true, however many have held that view contrary to logic. Also we should consider some men actually possessing femininity rather than merely emulating it.


Of course some crossdressers mock women. The proof can be found at any of the "less polite CD websites" and public sites, including myspace and youtube. A veritable sea of crossdressers displaying nothing but their thonged rear ends and platformed shod feet.
If this is not insulting to women then I don't know what is.

I put it to you that the existence of GG exhibitionists invalidates your point entirely. Images identical in every particular save the anatomy of the person in them exist all over the net of GGs happily displaying themselves just the same. In fact as 'The Porn Report' a scientific study of erotic material in Australia found the majority of material is non-comercial, consenting and produced for the purposes of exhibitionism.

Thusly it cannot possibly be mocking of women to act like many women do! It may be however in violation of and mocking of socially accepted false notions and rules of what women are and do that may be called themselves a mockery of women because of their falseness.

[michelle2b]

Wow! I did not know there would be so many responses to this thread. I have been traveling for the last few days and could not check back here often due to bad internet connections.

To answer some of your questions -



Hi Michelle

Just out of interest, would you know how many of the women in your focus group realise the difference between cders and drag-queens?

I did not ask them if they knew the difference between cross-dressers and drag-queens. However, during the discussion, one of them brought up the topic of drag-queens, in reference to my question about where each one of them had seen any kind of trans people. She explained to the group that drag-queens are gay men who impersonate women. This was way before we even got into the "mockery" discussion.

Please note that these women live in an area where we have lots of drag-queens, crossdressing groups, transgender groups and transexuals. They had all lived here for at least 6 months (the range was 6 months to their complete lifetime). They are not strangers to genetic males in feminine presentation. I do not know if all the women know about the fine differences between each of these groups. This focus group was not about educating them. Rather, it was about identifying their existing impressions and opinions.





Michelle, can you explain a little more about the frame these discussions were set in and how you presented yourself during them? Did you introduce yourself to them as trans?



I was in an attire similar to their own - jeans, sweater, long hair. The students at the focus group do not know that I am transgender. I took down my picture on this website, but let me assure you that I pass very easily. Between age 22 and 26, I worked as a girl, without hormones, without blockers, but nobody knew, except HR. My voice is naturally quite feminine, or child-like. I sound like a 10-12 year old. I am on HRT and I look even more feminine than I did when I was 26.

I thought about going to the focus group as a guy, but then I decided against it because I wanted these women to talk more openly.

My girlfriend was also there with me. We are almost the same height (she is 5'6" and I am 5'7"). We adjusted our shoes so as to appear equally tall. I am Asian, and my girlfriend is Causasian. Our weights are 3 pounds apart. We wear the same dress size. Our hand length and gestures are very similar. Because my girlfriend and I are so similar in proportions, any sexual dimorphism between us was less evident.

I did not introduce myself by gender. My girlfriend introduced herself by name and then she introduced me by name. The women in the focus groups made their own conclusions about my gender, which my girlfriend and I believe was "female". I did not speak to the group until my girlfriend introduced me, but I had welcomed each student entering into the room.

My girlfriend also asked questions during the focus group. I did not dominate the discussions. It was a casual environment where all the women could be themselves and speak their mind.




Now, to address some of the other points and concerns expressed here -

The point is not about whether you are intentionally mocking women, or even that the women are misunderstanding us. The point is that the particular women I met have this perception that crossdressers mock them and we, as a community, need to change it into a positive perception.

Whether the women I met are liberal or leftists or communists or ungodly or feminists or whatever else is irrelevant, and such labels can only be used to justify arguments that lead to our detriment. It is always wise to understand what people are trying to say even if we disagree with the category of humans they belong to. These women live in an area that is very welcoming towards all of us, including drag-queens, CD/TS/TG. They did not say that genetic males should stop presenting as female. They did not want to "take away your rights". The expressed what they see from their perspective. That's it.


In terms of the impression of mocking -
I met several trans people on my trip so far. The trans people seem to agree unanimously that they think that some of us "appear" to be mocking women through our presentation. Their argument was that it is not even about passing. They say that most women appreciate a good effort at emulating them. They say that they observe the equivalent of mocking through trans people who sit and walk with legs wide apart, walk with the shoulders swinging (and I am guilty of this one when I walk upslopes, not on flat ground, specifically when wearing heels), not shaving prominent coarse hair on exposed neck, chest, arms or legs, wear breast forms too large for body size, wear clothes too tight fitting, show too much leg, wear age-inappropriate clothing, wear inappropriate clothing for the situation (eg. wearing dancewear standing in line at a drivers license office), wear too much makeup, wear no makeup with facial hair showing, wear heavy makeup on the eyes and lips at the same time, wear makeup sloppily (eg. eyeliner all over the place), spit on the side of the road, burp openly in public, eat with mouth open and food showing, use strong or derogatory language in public, be too loud in public, be too sexually open in public, etc all when presenting as women. I did not have a tape recorder when these trans people were listing these out, so I noted down as many as I could remember at my hotel or airport. They had many more examples that I missed out. I am sure a few genetic women also have a few of these habits, but it seemed like the experienced trans people seemed to notice all of these in us.




I find when talking to men on work sites that they mock everything that is not manly even saying they never buy their partners flowers and yet I have seen one in a florist. Drag Queens, Croosdressers, Gay's, Men in suits are all targets for them, If one starts it seems that they all start and all stay on that theme. Could the same be happening with this group?

Definitely possible. However, does it mean that they are all wrong in what they pointed out? Some women may see it as mocking, some others may find it adorable, but there seem to be examples that they are pointing to, which are all things on which we can improve as a community.

I typically do an initial written segment of my focus groups, but I skipped that part during this focus group (I was not prepared with enough papers and pencils during a bad snowy day). So I know that group-think is a possibility here. At the same time, all of them were asked to provide examples about whatever they thought. So if they were bluffing or copying others, they were grilled further to find out why they think the way they claimed to.

As I pointed out, I do not have a large enough sample to generalize this to "all" women in the world. Of course there may be many women who find it adorable for a genetic male presenting as a female with a hairy chest and arms, sitting or walking with legs apart, .... etc. I am not the arbitrator of the judgment of all women in the world. All I see is that there is scope for improvement, in myself too, and I like to take feedback and act on the things that I can. I actually appreciate when well-meaning people provide me feedback about my presentation which I can incorporate into my life and make it more positive. I shared with everyone here because I hope you can be honest to yourself and try a few things yourself too.

[BobbiJ]

Of course some crossdressers mock women. The proof can be found at any of the "less polite CD websites" and public sites, including myspace and youtube. A veritable sea of crossdressers displaying nothing but their thonged rear ends and platformed shod feet.
If this is not insulting to women then I don't know what is.

Nonsense. What you wear doesn't mock women, no matter WHAT you wear. Do you think that only cross-dressers wear thongs and platform heels, and have themselves displayed online? Are the women that do these things mocking themselves?

I've interacted with a lot of cross-dressers and a fair number of drag queens, and none of them ever said that mocking women had the slightest thing to do with their dressing - not one.

It is supremely arrogant for women to presume they are being mocked just because someone with Y chromosomes is wearing something they don't approve of.

We do what we do because we like it, and it feels good to us. Just because you can't understand it, don't presume that your assumptions about our behavior have any basis in reality, because they don't.

[Dr.Susan]

Nonsense. What you wear doesn't mock women, no matter WHAT you wear. Do you think that only cross-dressers wear thongs and platform heels, and have themselves displayed online? Are the women that do these things mocking themselves?

I've interacted with a lot of cross-dressers and a fair number of drag queens, and none of them ever said that mocking women had the slightest thing to do with their dressing - not one.

It is supremely arrogant for women to presume they are being mocked just because someone with Y chromosomes is wearing something they don't approve of.

We do what we do because we like it, and it feels good to us. Just because you can't understand it, don't presume that your assumptions about our behavior have any basis in reality, because they don't.


It's not what you wear. It how you wear it and display yourself while attempting to represent a female. Impersonation is often not the most sincerest form of flattery. Also most people don't really tell the truth about why they CD anyway.

[battybattybats]

Other TG people can be as guilty of transphobia as anyone else.

Androgynous and genderqueer people are in every way as valid as CDs and TSs.

Heck, most male goths could easilly be classed as such, I know my 'male' appearance dances those lines most days.

Gender is not binary and no-one can criticise a person with a beard in stockings without invalidating their own claims to any expression outside the most extreme gender stereotypes.

Just because bigotry is common does not make it valid. It is interesting to study certainly but it is also neccessary to educate the ignorant and stand up against injustice.

A person with a beard in a dress is not mocking. They are standing up for what is right! Personal individual expression!

LOL while writing this I stumbled on this bit of related news http://intersexnews.blogspot.com/2009/01/genderfree-manifesto.html

And as part of my point I raise these pictures of myself as a 'boy' I posted a while back in the gallery http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89282
I look like this in public frequently. Often with heavy eye-makeup along with my lips I might add!

The judgements against non-conforming TG people are unjust, unethical and hypocritical.

It's been centuries since the enlightenment. Why are we still waiting then for genuine equality or for most people to understand the simple basic principles?


It's not what you wear. It how you wear it and display yourself while attempting to represent a female. Impersonation is often not the most sincerest form of flattery. Also most people don't really tell the truth about why they CD anyway.

I have never ever seen any TG person display themselves or comport themselves in any way that I have not also seen GGs do so!

Wearing clothing that is feminine is not impersonating women. It is expressing femininity which is a trait held to some degree by just about every human.

Being female is a medical state. It is nebulous. Many people are neurologically, genetically and/or anatomically both male and female with many different degrees of each of these traits.

There is no impersonation in pretty much all of transgender expression. It is only those rare few that imperasonate a particular person or stereotype for satirical purposes that can be considered such. And in that case it is art and not gender expression and is only judgeable as art.

Unless of course we consider those who dress more like women to blend in when they'd be happier with the beard and the dress together. That would arguably be impersonation.

At some point society is going to have to consider the scientific and medical facts about Intersex and when they do the binary model of gender will be shown for the lie it has always been.

[Dr.Susan]

Other TG people can be as guilty of transphobia as anyone else.

Androgynous and genderqueer people are in every way as valid as CDs and TSs.

Heck, most male goths could easilly be classed as such, I know my 'male' appearance dances those lines most days.

Gender is not binary and no-one can criticise a person with a beard in stockings without invalidating their own claims to any expression outside the most extreme gender stereotypes.

Just because bigotry is common does not make it valid. It is interesting to study certainly but it is also neccessary to educate the ignorant and stand up against injustice.

A person with a beard in a dress is not mocking. They are standing up for what is right! Personal individual expression!

LOL while writing this I stumbled on this bit of related news http://intersexnews.blogspot.com/2009/01/genderfree-manifesto.html

And as part of my point I raise these pictures of myself as a 'boy' I posted a while back in the gallery http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89282
I look like this in public frequently. Often with heavy eye-makeup along with my lips I might add!

The judgements against non-conforming TG people are unjust, unethical and hypocritical.

It's been centuries since the enlightenment. Why are we still waiting then for genuine equality or for most people to understand the simple basic principles?



I have never ever seen any TG person display themselves or comport themselves in any way that I have not also seen GGs do so!

Wearing clothing that is feminine is not impersonating women. It is expressing femininity which is a trait held to some degree by just about every human.

Being female is a medical state. It is nebulous. Many people are neurologically, genetically and/or anatomically both male and female with many different degrees of each of these traits.

There is no impersonation in pretty much all of transgender expression. It is only those rare few that imperasonate a particular person or stereotype for satirical purposes that can be considered such. And in that case it is art and not gender expression and is only judgeable as art.

Unless of course we consider those who dress more like women to blend in when they'd be happier with the beard and the dress together. That would arguably be impersonation.

At some point society is going to have to consider the scientific and medical facts about Intersex and when they do the binary model of gender will be shown for the lie it has always been.

I have no issues with women who peddle their wares. In fact I applaud them for separating some abusive man from his money. But a CD representing their hind quarters as as makeshift vagina for someone is a mockery to me.

As for female impersonators anyone steals other peoples appearance and performances and profits from it is in fact also a mockery with the exception of performers like Jim Bailey, Grea Phillips and Jimmie James who actually sing. I am a artist is one of the great excuses of modern times.

[battybattybats]

I have no issues with women who peddle their wares. In fact I applaud them for separating some abusive man from his money.

Guess you missed this bit I posted:
In fact as 'The Porn Report' a scientific study of erotic material in Australia found the majority of material is non-comercial, consenting and produced for the purposes of exhibitionism.


Non-commercial! People of their own free will for their own personal enjoyment exchanging erotic images of themselves. Not only is about 1/3rd of the porn audience female but plenty are making their own material and distributing it to others purely for the kicks. No money, no abusive man. Just exhibitionists of all sexes genders and orientations enjoying showing themselves to voyuers of likewise diversity in an entirely concensual manner.


But a CD representing their hind quarters as as makeshift vagina for someone is a mockery to me.

Plenty of women show their hindquarters, not as makeshift vaginas but because anal sex is enjoyed by countless men and women. Even plenty of straight men are into 'pegging'. Again, not an iota of mockery but something huge numbers of everday men and women do. Perhaps there are relevant things about human sexuality that you are underinformed on to render a fair judgement on the subject?


As for female impersonators anyone steals other peoples appearance and performances and profits from it is in fact also a mockery with the exception of performers like Jim Bailey, Grea Phillips and Jimmie James who actually sing. I am a artist is one of the great excuses of modern times.

I suggest that you may like to read about both the ancient forms of satire and also several cultural art traditions of performing physically to others voices. To call being an artist an excuse you must first show that it is not in fact a valid reason merely a pretense at such with another motive entirely. As such I hope you've been reading up on performance-art through history and modern times. Consider for example the Dada movement with it's uses of peoples images and words.

[Janie Gunn]

Dr Susan: It's not what you wear. It how you wear it and display yourself while attempting to represent a female. Impersonation is often not the most sincerest form of flattery. [Also most people don't really tell the truth about why they CD anyway]
How the hell would you know, Suzie, who do you think you are, saying that!
And if someone says they dont dress to mock women, then you'd better believe it, because they know better about themselves than you do.

[Satrana]

I fail to see why one cannot be critical of those in the TG community who dress in a manner that invokes scorn upon us

Because the scorn is judgmental in nature. Why should you criticize someone because of another person's value system?

What if the CD community turned on you and said the way you dressed brings the rest of us into disrepute because Jane said so? You think that is fair? How do you feel when people judge you as a pervert?

Because you share the same values as these women, you fail to see why harshly judging others, especially when based upon erroneous presumptions, is divisive.

When we agree with such sentiments we are making judgments based on personal opinions or standards and believe them to be superior. This makes us look down on others, as if we are so much better.

This means we make no effort to get to know the person, or understand them, or see whether the judgment was even remotely correct.

To be judgmental is to find others guilty until proven innocent. It is the wrong way to go about life. It leads to close-mindedness and you will distance yourself from people for unfounded reasons.

[Satrana]

Please note that these women live in an area where we have lots of drag-queens, crossdressing groups, transgender groups and transexuals. They had all lived here for at least 6 months This proves absolutely nothing. Anyone living in any city lives in an environment which has lots of CDs and TGs. So what? There is nothing in these women's answers which indicates they have had any contact with the TG community.


They are not strangers to genetic males in feminine presentation. That is a big presumption on your part.


The point is that the particular women I met have this perception that crossdressers mock them Personally I am surprised that anyone found this attitude revealing.


Whether the women I met are liberal or leftists or communists or ungodly or feminists or whatever else is irrelevant Eh? Knowing that a person's views are shaped by a certain ideology makes all the difference. How much weight would you give to a person's hatred of Jews if you know them to be a member of the Nazi party?



The trans people seem to agree unanimously that they think that some of us "appear" to be mocking women No big surprise, trans people usually have a different agenda to the average CD. They typically want to blend in to be accepted by society as a real woman. CDs typically want to enjoy certain aspects of femininity and only fantasize about being a real woman. Many CDs enjoy aspects of masculinity!


They say that they observe the equivalent of mocking through trans people who sit and walk with legs wide apart, walk with the shoulders swinging.... The horror! This list reveals a belief that any behavior unbecoming of an elegant, straight-laced Victorian lady can be construed as mocking women. Personally I find many of the details quite disturbing due to their discriminatory overtones. I am sorry to hear that many of us are not womanly enough to pass the grade.


but there seem to be examples that they are pointing to, which are all things on which we can improve as a community. Do you speak for the community? Did you ever consider many are very happy presenting their own femininity and don't want or need others' blessing?


All I see is that there is scope for improvement, in myself too, and I like to take feedback and act on the things that I can. I actually appreciate when well-meaning people provide me feedback about my presentation which I can incorporate into my life and make it more positive.
If your objective is to blend invisibly into society and conform to GG social rules and seek to please others by not doing anything to offend their sensibilities then by all means improve your presentation to this end.

My femininity is my own to express in the manner of my choosing. The feminist movement freed women from the binds of gender conformity and allowed them to freely express themselves for the first time in known history. I salute all women who sit with legs apart and swing their shoulders. Good for them!

[tvbeckytv]

Of course some crossdressers mock women. The proof can be found at any of the "less polite CD websites" and public sites, including myspace and youtube. A veritable sea of crossdressers displaying nothing but their thonged rear ends and platformed shod feet.
If this is not insulting to women then I don't know what is.

so what...i cant see why thats insulting to women...they need to get over themselves are let any one be the peson they feel they are, and wear whatever clothes they feel comfortable with.
sheesh, most Womans clothing has been pinched from mens clothing anyways...high heels? they pinched them off blokes, stockings? the same. tell em we trannys just reclaiming what is rightfully ours, and mind their own business

[Nicki B]

I was in an attire similar to their own - jeans, sweater, long hair. The students at the focus group do not know that I am transgender. I took down my picture on this website, but let me assure you that I pass very easily. Between age 22 and 26, I worked as a girl, without hormones, without blockers, but nobody knew, except HR. My voice is naturally quite feminine, or child-like. I sound like a 10-12 year old. I am on HRT and I look even more feminine than I did when I was 26.

I thought about going to the focus group as a guy, but then I decided against it because I wanted these women to talk more openly.

My girlfriend was also there with me. We are almost the same height (she is 5'6" and I am 5'7"). We adjusted our shoes so as to appear equally tall. I am Asian, and my girlfriend is Causasian. Our weights are 3 pounds apart. We wear the same dress size. Our hand length and gestures are very similar. Because my girlfriend and I are so similar in proportions, any sexual dimorphism between us was less evident.

I did not introduce myself by gender. My girlfriend introduced herself by name and then she introduced me by name. The women in the focus groups made their own conclusions about my gender, which my girlfriend and I believe was "female". I did not speak to the group until my girlfriend introduced me, but I had welcomed each student entering into the room.

My girlfriend also asked questions during the focus group. I did not dominate the discussions. It was a casual environment where all the women could be themselves and speak their mind.

Am I the only one to think it was a shame that you didn't use your presence to educate them, in their beliefs, once you'd identified their opinions? :sad:


The point is not about whether you are intentionally mocking women, or even that the women are misunderstanding us. The point is that the particular women I met have this perception that crossdressers mock them and we, as a community, need to change it into a positive perception.

Precisely. Given your access, what are your plans?



Of course there may be many women who find it adorable for a genetic male presenting as a female with a hairy chest and arms, sitting or walking with legs apart, .... etc.

Look around at the many young women who now have grown up mainly wearing trousers and flat shoes - you'll see lots of them sitting with their legs apart, often with a 'male' walk, too..

Many of us wish to remove our body hair, but their are many reasons why we can't, apart from what our hormones do to us? It seems just as unfair to judge us as it is to judge those women from the Indian sub-continent who often suffer from heavy body hair? :straightface:

[Dr.Susan]

How the hell would you know, Suzie, who do you think you are, saying that!
And if someone says they dont dress to mock women, then you'd better believe it, because they know better about themselves than you do.

I am a crossdresser and have been one for a long time and in my opinion from some of the comments I have read at this forum and at others. I have seen some very purposely unfaltering representations, print and photo, of women, I would say some indeed mock woman.

I don't know anything about them and make no pretense to do so but I am allowed my opinion like everyone else. I don't expect anyone to agree with me but I do expect many to disagree, because this is one of those threads where there is no obvious answer to the question.

How do you know when someone is not lying anyway? In fact I bet a major portion of the membership and guests, are not even crossdressers but those that come here for some personal and physical satifaction.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

I agree with you Dr.Susan I do feel that we Cd's do mock women, but you will not hear a Cd's say that here in cross dressers.com were every thing a Cd's dose is right.

We Cd's want to blame other like drag queens and Cd's who dress unflattering for mocking women........but not us we dress for self expression not to mock women

You hear Cd's talk about how much they love women so they emulate then as a form of flattery, but you do have some Cd's who may not like women but they emulate them anyway.

Some of the things we Cd's do and say are insulting to women and a lot of us do mock women.


LA CINDY LOVE
and

[Nicki B]

We Cd's want to blame other like drag queens and Cd's who dress unflattering for mocking women........but not us we dress for self expression not to mock women

Well, I, like others here, defend anothers right to present as they need to, blending, drag, fetish, little girl, male, female, or otherwise?


a lot of us do mock women.

I've certainly seen some misogyny in the trans world - but it's a small minority, often to do with the experiences and upbringing of a specific person - it's certainly NOT all of us.. There are genetic women out there who mock and dislike other women, too. :sad:

[Fab Karen]

She started going on about "what are relationships for anyway". When it got quiet I offered the perspective that ideally, relationships can eventually serve as a safe environment for the raising of children. Her reply was "so, I'm just a baby factory then" ? I have a hard time understanding the hostility necessary to generate a statement like that (a tragic family of origin story there perhaps).

For me, raising kids, keeping home fires burning and trying to look nice in the process would be a wonderful life. How that was ever made to look ugly and demeaning is beyond me.
You defined your personal ideal of having children as THE ideal for all. You essentially told her her job as a woman is to have babies. You shouldn't be surprised such chauvinism produces an angry response.

[battybattybats]

Problem: A group is not accepted by another because they are in some way different even though the difference is ethical.

Solution A. Unaccepted group strives as much as possible to conform to other group so as to gain acceptance neccessairly treating parts of itself who will not or cannot conform as well as other groups that are also dissimilar in the same way as they were treated that prompted the situation in the first place. Result: acceptance for some, unacceptance for others, those who are accepted as or more guilty as those who did not accept initially.

Solution B. Educate the other group, stand up for ethical nonconformity, stand up for the more different in ones own group as well as for other groups. Result: Increased acceptance of everyone ethical.

Solution A is intrinsicly and irredeemably hypocritical. Immoral, unethical and wrong at every point and level. The initial unacceptance may be due to ordinary ignorance, a simple lack of knowledge. The deliberate marginalisation of non-conformers though goes from the self-centred ignorance all the way to deliberately selfish harming of others for personal gain!

Solution B is harder for those who most easilly could benefit from solution A but is the only option for many who would be harmed by solution A and the easiest for those for whom solution A would be a possible but struggling option.

Now we can run all sorts of ethical differences through this model. Differing religions like Christianity and Hinduism for example or subcultures like Mainstream suburbanites and Goth. Bestialists pedophiles and all the rest of the bogeys that people throw against the notions of tolerance and diversity are all unethical intrinsicly.

Or to put it at it;s most basic level:
Solution A is the kid with glasses tripping the fat kid so the bullies will accept him.

So is there a flaw in this or can we now all logicly support Solution B and condemn Solution A as intrinsicly evil and wrong?

[Janie Gunn]

Yep, solution B, philosopher Batty. (I think you've always got the best, most logical answers). [and any time you're heading to Sth Aust (Adel), please let me know, I'd enjoy catching up]

The deliberate marginalisation of non-conformers though goes from the self-centred ignorance all the way to deliberately selfish harming of others for personal gain!

I think that says a lot! A very good description!!

[Satrana]

Am I the only one to think it was a shame that you didn't use your presence to educate them, in their beliefs, once you'd identified their opinions? :sad: No you are not the only one, I made a similar comment myself. Since Michelle operates in stealth mode, I presume she does not normally educate the general public.

This whole thread seems to me to revolve around the age long tiff between the TS and CD communities. Some TS bemoan the fact that CDs are sometimes too flamboyant in either their femininity or their sexuality. They claim this makes it harder for them as TS to be accepted. In effect CDs bring TS into disrepute and CDs should change their ways to follow the TS example of invisibly blending in and complete conformity. Not to do so is disrespectful to GGs etc.

So when Michelle found this group of female students complaining about the look and behavior of feminine men then naturally she wanted to share this to provide ammo for this line of thought.


I have seen some very purposely unfaltering representations, print and photo, of women, I would say some indeed mock woman. If that were even remotely true then when these pictures are posted then we would see comments like "Ha ha good one, you really nailed the trashy look but your breasts are not gigantic enough". Instead the comments are "You look lovely". Why would anyone want to present a purposely unflattering picture when what they are after is support and validation of their femininity?

Your argument rests solely on your own personal interpretation of the pictures based upon your personal values.

[Nicki B]

Since Michelle operates in stealth mode, I presume she does not normally educate the general public.

I can certainly understand her wanting to remain stealth - but there are surely other ways to defeat prejudice? :idontknow:


If that were even remotely true then when these pictures are posted then we would see comments like "Ha ha good one, you really nailed the trashy look but your breasts are not gigantic enough". Instead the comments are "You look lovely". Why would anyone want to present a purposely unflattering picture when what they are after is support and validation of their femininity?

I don't think Michelle meant on this site...

[Carin's Wife GG]

and have some thoughts.


I do believe the reality is that some women feel that men who present themselves in a feminine or female way in fact do *mock* women. That of course is not the intent of the majority of CDs. Some CDs really do adore the female/feminine form. Other CDs see *dressing* in a sexual way and present in such a way. And still others see themselves as TG or TS and present in a way that *blends*. None of these are *wrong* or *more right*. They just are. And so is the the reality of the women who were in the focus group. Whether that reality came from prejudice, bigotry or ignorance does not make that reality less real.

IMO if this reality bothers you (the general you) then it would behoove you to find ways to accept that reality and then find ways to change it. Change happens in so many ways, little and big, in everyday life. We do it by raising our children to be more open. We do it in our conversations with friends. We do it in the educational system. If the reality of these women doesn't bother you then there isn't anything for you to do or complain about.


Louise.

[Lorileah]

In my mind I place the over the top in the catagory of "drag queens" I know we shouldn't label ourselves but there is a difference in a crossdresser (look at the classy girls here) and Drag Queens who do make a mockery as they say of women. That is what queens do, over emphasize the femine look. Unfortunately that is the image that Hollywood perpetuates. Think about every film that features men in womens clothes. We are either perverts and murderers or clowns (sorry for all you who like Tootsie but honestly).

Something else that may bother those women is that we as a group tend to make ourselves look good (as best we can) in a routine basis and they find that threatening because they don't want to take the time to put on a little makeup and spiff up. What girl here wouldn't love the oppurtunity to do that on a regular basis?

sigh

[Carin's Wife GG]

In my mind I place the over the top in the catagory of "drag queens" I know we shouldn't label ourselves but there is a difference in a crossdresser (look at the classy girls here) and Drag Queens who do make a mockery as they say of women. That is what queens do, over emphasize the femine look. Unfortunately that is the image that Hollywood perpetuates. Think about every film that features men in womens clothes. We are either perverts and murderers or clowns (sorry for all you who like Tootsie but honestly).

Something else that may bother those women is that we as a group tend to make ourselves look good (as best we can) in a routine basis and they find that threatening because they don't want to take the time to put on a little makeup and spiff up. What girl here wouldn't love the oppurtunity to do that on a regular basis?

sigh


*threatening*??? That line is getting sooo old. GGs are NOT threatened by how CDs/TS/ TGs dress or make themselves look *pretty*, lol.

[Satrana]

Mockery is in the eye of the beholder. I dont believe drag queens mock women, they impersonate women with theatrical indulgence.

Anyone who does impersonaltions, anyone in the acting business or even those who tell jokes could be charged with mockery.

Mockery is defined as an insulting or derisionary impersonation meant to cause offense or attack a person's character.

Dressing up in a glamorous outfit does not indicate mockery.
Doing a song and dance routine does not indicate mockery.
Making sexual innuendos playing on the Big Joke that the drag queen is not a GG but a man does not indicate mockery.

That people would describe a drag queen's act as mockery is indicative of the widespread intolerance surrounding the notion of men displaying femininity. Being a taboo subject makes everyone extra sensitive so an exuberant display touches nerves.

[Satrana]

That of course is not the intent of the majority of CDs.

It is a very good summation and I agree with all of it except this one line. I believe no CD ever intends to mock women. We all start off doing this and are at a loss why. We are scared of it because of the potential to damage our relationships and our careers. We mostly begin as children and practice this secretively and in complete isolation.

What the personal motivations are for each CD and how that is physically expressed differs significantly but the intent is always to express an inner feeling, never is it a decision to mock women. It is a behavior of self expression done with adulation of GGs in mind, or aspects of feminine expression.

No CD crossdresses because they dislike women and want to offend or poke fun at them.

[michelle2b]

Shooting the messenger does not solve the problem. The subject of this posting was not the messenger or her actions, but rather an FYI in terms of what a "few" women said were their opinions about "genetic men who present as women".



Am I the only one to think it was a shame that you didn't use your presence to educate them, in their beliefs, once you'd identified their opinions? :sad:

Do you mean during the focus group when I was trying to ask them questions?

There is a methodology for everything. There's a methodology for conducting focus groups and another for doing community outreach.

Since we do not know each other, it is not right for you to judge the amount of outreach I have done over 9 years and how much more I will be doing. It is also not right for me to judge you. So let's leave aside shame and sadness about not "educating" the women right away, and let us get back to the topic.

When it comes to educating them, it is the duty of all of you, every one here, to participate in this education process, not by opposing the women for their views, not by attacking them or judging them, but by introspecting and identifying methods in which we can make a better impression on the world as a whole. When the perceptions about us do not match our intentions, shouldn't we try to find out ways in which we can create that match? Arguing that there is a mismatch does not resolve the mismatch. We need to do something to create the match, right?

Over the years, my trans friends and I have found that the best education for people who do not understand us is to be able to interact with us after we have learned to be respectable and respectful. You may have other methods that you believe work better, and I hope you can create cordial and understanding relations with the people around you using your methods.

The women I talked with were already invited to an LGBT event for the last weekend in January. They will get more "educated" by interacting and talking with trans people (and gays and lesbians and other non-conformists and even a huge number of non-LGBT people who are now our allies). 9 out of the 15 women have already accepted, 3 will be out of town or indicated prior commitments, 1 said "maybe", and 2 have not responded yet. We do not believe in forcing the cis-gender people to accept our viewpoint. My group of friends here have learned to get them involved and let them interact with us and get to know us better. We have studied the best methods of dealing with outreach, and the focus group and even the time right after the focus group when the women had just completed expressing their opinions formed over long periods of observation, were not the right points in time for imparting knowledge about us. We know how to deal with bringing these particular women around to know us better. Leave that to us.

There are millions of other women out there and you can make a difference there if you deal with this in a very mature manner..




Look around at the many young women who now have grown up mainly wearing trousers and flat shoes - you'll see lots of them sitting with their legs apart, often with a 'male' walk, too..

It sounds like a tit-for-tat arguments against women. That does not solve any problems, and if made in public, such comments will only create more resentment towards us. It is more mature for us to understand what they are trying to tell us.




Many of us wish to remove our body hair, but their are many reasons why we can't, apart from what our hormones do to us? It seems just as unfair to judge us as it is to judge those women from the Indian sub-continent who often suffer from heavy body hair? :straightface:

Yes, and I am mixed Asian and I understand the meaning of having too much body hair. I spent years covering hair under sleeves, trousers and jeans, and under high-necklines (these are simple solutions and don't tell me that these are impossible to do), and many more years (and even now) trimming, shaving, epilating, etc. Genetic women do the same things too.

I am not blind to the issues we encounter. Fighting me or convincing me about the problems that we face is not necessary and does not help you achieve anything.

At the same time, I understand the viewpoint of the women. I do not see their opinions as insults or judgment, but rather as perceptions or areas for improvement. I think that is the healthy way to look at it.



I noticed someone else seemed to challenge some of the statements I made in one of my posts. For example, one challenge was regarding my "assumption" that the women in the focus group had encountered some trans people before they came to the focus group. FYI - only those who said they had encountered trans people before were in the focus group. They had to specifically tell us which location they met the trans person and how they appeared and what they said. There were some other women who said they had never actually seen a trans person in their presence. Those women were not picked for this particular focus group.

Again, my point here is that you can challenge my statements, but that is not solving the problem. By fighting me, you are only creating animosity with one among you. Let us leave ego aside and try to understand the overall social issue and determine solutions that help us live cordially in society where we respect others and they respect us too.



Please, this is meant to be a mature discussion, not about hitting back at the women or hitting each other. If you can act upon the feedback that the few women told me, that would be great. If not, at least let us not make enemies in our own community through messages that attack each other here personally.

I have found very few posts here saying, "oh, the women were mentioning that crossdressers do _____. I think / I have found that _____ is a great way to solve this issue. Maybe it will work for all of you too". Even pointing to existing threads that provide tips that solve the things that seem like "mocking" would be fantastic!

I hope we reach that level of cohesion and support as a community, where we help each other bring our whole community into the mainstream of life.

[Toni_Lynn]

Dressing up in a glamorous outfit does not indicate mockery.
Doing a song and dance routine does not indicate mockery.
Making sexual innuendos playing on the Big Joke that the drag queen is not a GG but a man does not indicate mockery.

I agree with these statements and do not not have a problem with any of them. However, I feel that in some cases, not all, some drag queens go over the top in ways that would be considered at very least insensitive in other scenarios. I ask you to consider the same actions as performed by a Caucasian wearing black face and instead of saying "you go girl" saying "yassah, yassah, ise gonna dance fo ya". (True case -- When Ted Danson was dating Whoopie Goldberg he got in deep scorn because of similar actions -- even though the routine was written by Whoopie!)

What if the scenario was done by someone impersonating a Native American, a Jew, or a Moslem. How can that be handled with sensitivity?


I dont believe drag queens mock women, they impersonate women with theatrical indulgence.

You have a good point there, so I put it to you, can it possible be said that while queens don't mock women per se, they mock crossdressers and others on TG spectrum? Just a thought. My point in saying that is to ask "Who would you much rather have the public's perception of CDers and TG people be, you yourself or someone like Jan Morris or Renee Richards (yes I know they aren't CDers) -- or someone such as the people who are in the group the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence in San Francisco? If one can say that they (the sister) too have a right to do what they do, then shouldn't part of our job be public education to say that they aren't us?

Toni-Lynn

[battybattybats]

When it comes to educating them, it is the duty of all of you, every one here, to participate in this education process,

Absolutely


not by opposing the women for their views, not by attacking them or judging them, but by introspecting and identifying methods in which we can make a better impression on the world as a whole.

Sounding dangerously like the conformity argument I just explained as one of the great evils of the world. We have to be very careful about that!

Goths didn't conform, we won our general acceptance just by being extremely visible for long enough. Eventually people realised we weren't suicidal satanistic drug-fiends on welfare out to corrupt and sacrifice their children because enough just got to know us. We didn't manage any sort of orchestrated PR. We did stand up for ourselves, we did criticise falsehoods said about us and we sure didn't conform or try to fit in or be less scary or avoid things that might be missconstrued!

And now we have a non-stereotypical Goth on NCIS and a panoply of Goth kids shows.


When the perceptions about us do not match our intentions, shouldn't we try to find out ways in which we can create that match? Arguing that there is a mismatch does not resolve the mismatch. We need to do something to create the match, right?

Umm.. maybe or no. Change our intentions to match others perceptions? Nope. Change others perceptions to match our intentions, only if done ethicly... which can only be done using education and information, not conformity which restricts our freedom and shifts harm onto others as I explained before.


Over the years, my trans friends and I have found that the best education for people who do not understand us is to be able to interact with us after we have learned to be respectable and respectful. You may have other methods that you believe work better, and I hope you can create cordial and understanding relations with the people around you using your methods.

It is interesting that many gains in civil rights came frim riots. However I am a nice kind gentle person. But 20 years ago my style of clothing was not 'respectable' and often considered not 'respectful' either.

Today I met another Goth in the supermarket. I was wearing bat earrings and necklace and wallet chain black shirt and black cargo pants, she had huge purple and blue dreadlock hair extensions especially in two big bunches but the sides of her head were shaved, eyelashes that are of the most excessive drag-queen level, peacock-blue metallic eyeshadow, purple top with extreme cleavage, pink-edged black miniskirt over another skirt and platform boots.

Her outfit was more outrageous than many drag queens, more than some of the priscilla-queen-of-the-desert outfits. She was wearing it shopping in the afternoon at the supermarket in a country town!

20 years ago goths did not conform. It wasn't always easy and we faced a lot of prejudice. We stayed as safe as we could without hiding. We stayed ourselves in front of others. Velvet and lace and pvc, spiked hair and black dye and streaks, white face-paint and eyeliner and nail polish on men and women. People plain just got used to it.

I suggest that is how one wins acceptance. Acceptance for everyone!


There are millions of other women out there and you can make a difference there if you deal with this in a very mature manner..

Indeed. And conformity is immature as I demonstarted with my schoolyard example.


It sounds like a tit-for-tat arguments against women. That does not solve any problems, and if made in public, such comments will only create more resentment towards us. It is more mature for us to understand what they are trying to tell us.

While improving communication methods are good, i suggest that they (all men and women of cis-normative views) are the ones needing to listen to and understand us. We are not oppressing them. We are not harming them. We are accepting of women. They on the other hand are not doing so of us.

We need to explain to them effectively why the views they hold are wrong. We needn't be blunt or direct about it but that is the reality.


At the same time, I understand the viewpoint of the women. I do not see their opinions as insults or judgment, but rather as perceptions or areas for improvement. I think that is the healthy way to look at it.

Perceptions (biased false ones) yes, areas for improvement No! That is beyond unhealthy! Because a biased observation is worse than meaningless, it is harmful! The 'observations' of racists about other races are a horribly apt example!

When an observation is false acting if it were true is damaging and dangerous!


Again, my point here is that you can challenge my statements, but that is not solving the problem. By fighting me, you are only creating animosity with one among you. Let us leave ego aside and try to understand the overall social issue and determine solutions that help us live cordially in society where we respect others and they respect us too.

Indeed. Though it is always important to examine methodology when considering reported data. And it's important to challenge conclusions.


Please, this is meant to be a mature discussion, not about hitting back at the women or hitting each other.

Absolutely!


If you can act upon the feedback that the few women told me, that would be great.

Indeed. Your data shows me that much understanding has been lost among women of the gains and principles from the womens rights movement and the notions of human-rights in general. It's not surprising, there have been concerted attacks against egalitarianism and the enlightenment ideals for decades.


If not, at least let us not make enemies in our own community through messages that attack each other here personally.

Indeed. But that does not mean we shouldn't criticise what is being said, just not who is saying it!


I have found very few posts here saying, "oh, the women were mentioning that crossdressers do _____. I think / I have found that _____ is a great way to solve this issue. Maybe it will work for all of you too". Even pointing to existing threads that provide tips that solve the things that seem like "mocking" would be fantastic!

I hope I have done so. That it is possible to gain acceptance without kow-towing in any way to peoples perceptions but instead by defying their opinions and retaining our difference irrespective of their opinions!

Gently, as goths are not aggressive in general, and safely too because the risks of danger from some people is never to be ignored, but relentlessly! We wore our Goth clothes and makeup, listened to our many genres of music, read our centuries of literature, read our comics and manga, watched our anime and all in shopping malls parks libraries campuses and schools around the world.


I hope we reach that level of cohesion and support as a community, where we help each other bring our whole community into the mainstream of life.

The only way we can do that truly is with acceptance and celebration of our diversity. Any exclusionary or conformist option would be evil and make us underserving of any acceptance we unfairly got from others.

[Nicki B]

Shooting the messenger does not solve the problem.

Michelle, you quote me in that context? I don't believe I have either tried to 'shoot the messenger' nor dispute your findings, even though I have no knowledge of how you collected them?


Do you mean during the focus group when I was trying to ask them questions? I thought I'd made it clear I meant afterwards? :strugglin


Since we do not know each other, it is not right for you to judge the amount of outreach I have done over 9 years and how much more I will be doing. It is also not right for me to judge you. So let's leave aside shame and sadness about not "educating" the women right away, and let us get back to the topic.

I don't believe I judged you - it certainly was not my intent? I simply remarked on what seemed a lost opportunity? :idontknow:


When it comes to educating them, it is the duty of all of you, every one here, to participate in this education process, not by opposing the women for their views, not by attacking them or judging them, but by introspecting and identifying methods in which we can make a better impression on the world as a whole.

I agree with your first point, but not your last - it's our duty to show them who we really are, not changing 'to fit in' and the best opportunities for that are by direct contact..


When the perceptions about us do not match our intentions, shouldn't we try to find out ways in which we can create that match? Arguing that there is a mismatch does not resolve the mismatch. We need to do something to create the match, right?

No - we need to promote acceptance of the difference.


My group of friends here have learned to get them involved and let them interact with us and get to know us better. We have studied the best methods of dealing with outreach, and the focus group and even the time right after the focus group when the women had just completed expressing their opinions formed over long periods of observation, were not the right points in time for imparting knowledge about us. We know how to deal with bringing these particular women around to know us better. Leave that to us.

You were there - I wasn't. I can only bow to your judgement.


It sounds like a tit-for-tat arguments against women. That does not solve any problems, and if made in public, such comments will only create more resentment towards us.

Then you misunderstand me - I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of judging others for something one does oneself.


I am not blind to the issues we encounter. Fighting me or convincing me about the problems that we face is not necessary and does not help you achieve anything.

Then again you misunderstand me - I have not tried to 'fight you'. :sad:

I am very glad you started the thread.


At the same time, I understand the viewpoint of the women. I do not see their opinions as insults or judgment, but rather as perceptions or areas for improvement. I think that is the healthy way to look at it.

Surely, though they are judgements? And they aren't generally correct - so need confronting and altering (in a persuasive way, not aggressively).


FYI - only those who said they had encountered trans people before were in the focus group. They had to specifically tell us which location they met the trans person and how they appeared and what they said.

Then could you expand on those encounters?


I hope we reach that level of cohesion and support as a community, where we help each other bring our whole community into the mainstream of life.

Then we share the same goal - we are only discussing the best ways to do it - for our whole community? :)




Change others perceptions to match our intentions, only if done ethicly... which can only be done using education and information, not conformity which restricts our freedom and shifts harm onto others as I explained before.

...We need to explain to them effectively why the views they hold are wrong. We needn't be blunt or direct about it but that is the reality.

That would be my view, too.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

It is good to hear what GG has to say about mocking woman, and she did it very nicely with out the unflattering names that some of you had said about women, that they need to get over themselves and that they are threatened by crossdressers......and more.

Michelle2b I have to say you did a good job with your discussion group, it was very good to hear what they had to say about cross dressers and how they feel, I am glad that you did not try to push cross dressers down there throat as to why we love to dress.

LA CINDY LOVE

[battybattybats]

It is good to hear what GG has to say about mocking woman, and she did it very nicely with out the unflattering names that some of you had said about women, that they need to get over themselves and that they are threatened by crossdressers......and more.

Ummm... have you heard what some women say about us? Its much more unflatterring and much more a generalisation. Lets take Janice Raymond for example from her influential feminist book The Transexual Empire:


’All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves However the transsexually constructed lesbian feminist violates women's sexuality and spirit as well. Having castrated (herself) (she) turns (her) whole body into a phallus which can rape in many ways all the time.’

Here's some from Germaine Greer:


“The only way a man can get rid of healthy genitals is to say that he is convinced that he is a woman. Then another man will remove them and gladly. In order to justify sex-change surgery a new disorder called gender dysphoria has come into being. The disease has no biological marker; its presence is discerned by a history of inappropriately gendered behaviour, social disability and affective disorder. . . .

…

Governments that consist of very few women have hurried to recognize as women men who believe that they are women and have had themselves castrated to prove it, because they see women not as another sex but as a non-sex. No so-called sex-change has ever begged for a uterus-and-ovaries transplant; if uterus-and-ovaries transplants were made mandatory for wannabe women they would disappear overnight. The insistence that manmade women be accepted as women is the institutional expression of the mistaken conviction that women are defective males.

…

The transsexual is identified as such solely on his/her own script, which can be as learned as any sex-typed behaviour and as editorialized as autobiographies usually are. The lack of insight that MTF transsexu¬als usually show about the extent of their acceptance as females should be an indication that their behaviour is less rational than it seems. There is a witness to the transsexual’s script, a witness who is never consulted. She is the person who built the transsexual’s body of her own flesh and brought it up as her son or daughter, the transsexual’s worst enemy, his/her mother. Whatever else it is gender reassignment is an exorcism of the mother. When a man decides to spend his life impersonating his mother (like Norman Bates in Psycho) it is as if he murders her and gets away with it, proving at a stroke that there was nothing to her. His intentions are no more honourable than any female impersonator’s; his achievement is to gag all those who would call his bluff. When he forces his way into the few private spaces women may enjoy and shouts down their objections, and bombards the women who will not accept him with threats and hate mail, he does as rapists have always done.”



There are plenty of comments about crossdressers to out in the works of 2nd wave/radical femnists.

Its ok to criticise some women without criticising all of them. It's fair to do that, unfair to criticise them all and unfair to consider them sacrosanct. When the view is what is criticised fairly then no wrong is done. If the label fits accurately (like someone espousing bigotry being called then a bigot) then it is appropriate to use it and inappropriate not to.


I am glad that you did not try to push cross dressers down there throat as to why we love to dress.

Explaining a truth to someone ignorant who is acting towards others and judging others based on that ignorance is not pushing anything down anyones throat. Pointing out an error calmly to someone who is genuinely mistaken is not being bad or unfair in any way but is good for them and for everyone. Being calmly assertive is not being aggressive at all.

Just as someone being visible when people are used to them being invisible is not pushing things down peoples throats no matter how many people may feel that it is, such as gay people acting openly effectionate exactly the same way straight people do! That is only equality and nothing more. It is the ignorant lack of understanding on the part of those who feel affronted by the visibility of this, by the lack of hiding, the audacity of actually acting like equals or those who just plain don't comprehend the notion of equality from any perspective other than their own who see it as such.

[BobbiJ]

Germaine Greer's ignorance regarding sexuality is staggeringly profound.

Her nonsensical diatribe on transsexuals disappearing overnight if uterus and ovaries transplants were a mandatory part of SRS is particularly laughable. I feel quite safe in assuming she never actually spoke to any m2f transsexuals before spewing her idiocy, because the ones i count as my friends are practically unanimous in their desire to be mothers, and their despair at knowing they will never be able to bear children.

If such transplants were a possible and workable option in SRS, i'm fairly certain a large percentage of m2f women would embrace the choice with enthusiasm.

It astounds me that Greer has been accorded such respect world-wide, when so much of her philosophy is based on ignorance and bigotry.

[Satrana]

However, I feel that in some cases, not all, some drag queens go over the top in ways that would be considered at very least insensitive in other scenarios. I am not doubting for a second that people have different levels of sensitivity and some will always find offense when offers don't. I have no problem with the original women surveyed having these opinions about TG persons. The issue is whether there is any factual truth supporting the opinion allowing us to consider if the opinion is worthy of taking action on. If the opinion is devoid of merit then no-one should be suggesting that we should make changes to accommodate it.

We all understand how the opinion was formed. We can respect they have a right to hold such an opinion. We do not however have to place any weight on their opinions when we know them to be wrong because they are based on erroneous assumptions.

Upholding and validating ignorant opinions only promotes intolerance. If we are interested in promoting a less discriminatory society then we should actively challenge these opinions.



If one can say that they (the sister) too have a right to do what they do, then shouldn't part of our job be public education to say that they aren't us?
Absolutely. The more information and education there is, the more informed the opinions will be.

You should be telling people how your transgenderism differs from others and by all means distance yourself from those who express themselves differently. Explain the differences but do so without becoming judgmental and condemning those with a different take on their own transgenderism. After all they are not claiming to represent you, that is just the inaccurate view of those who lack the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision. Don't blame them for the ignorance of others.