Overshadowed?

[_Alex_]

(mostly a thread to try get a discussion going)

Ok, admittedly I use to feel this as a lesbian with gay men as well, but do you guys ever feel the FtM spectrum (so female bodied CDs, TS, and other variations within Trans) are overshadowed by their MtF counterparts? Overshadowed in the media, just general presentation of the CD community to the world? If so, why do you think it is?

[michelle2b]

Alex,

You have asked an interesting question. MtFs overshadowing FtMs in society can also be a double-edged sword.

I think there could be several reasons for the MtFs overshadowing, many that I have not thought about.

When women dress in menswear, society sees as liberation. To men, women still seem attractive with short hair, shirts and trousers. When you visit any apparel retail store, the women's section has clothing structured similar to clothes traditionally associated with men, but the men's section does not have any clothing structured similar to traditional women's clothes. There's greater acceptance in society for women trying to fit into traditional men's roles, occupations, etc. The other way around is scorned.

When a MtF crosses the boundary of whatever is considered traditional, people around them are shocked. They get noticed a lot more than FtMs. MtFs also get harassed a lot more. The media publicizes any such transgressions by MtFs and such people are openly ridiculed.

Let's find a man who will openly ridicule a woman dressed in menswear in public and see what happens to him next.

I am sure you will easily find many men and women who will ridicule a male wearing women's clothes in public. Such people may also find support among their fellow citizens around them. Some of them may join them in the ridicule. Others may join in and say "freak".

As a result of the social structures, I think that the MtFs get noticed a lot more than FtMs. FtMs cannot be ridiculed or openly discussed in public. Hence it appears that MtFs are overshadowing FtMs.

Of course, whatever we consider traditional is questionable to begin with. High heels were originally worn by men. People long ago had clothing structured the same way for men and women. Pink used to be the color for baby boys until the 1940s. The "traditional" part consists of whatever evolved in society in the last few 100 years in which people conformed and women were treated as second-class citizens. Now it is the men who seem increasingly subjugated by society by not being able to express themselves or their emotions or even to live their lives with dignity. We are all living in this fiction in which we adhere to myths of the society around us, being forced to live as someone we are not but as someone who would fit into the ideal male or female. Even the myths change and people follow along. From early childhood we are bombarded with these myths which we cannot live up to and which we attempt to conform to while ignoring our true selves. This is true whether you are transgender or not, male or female. I think this between reality and the myth of society creates most of the sadness in our personal lives.

[Joanne f]

Michelle2b has said basically what i was thinking (just made it a lot more understanding than i would have ).

[ZenFrost]

On this website in particular, there's a lot more MtFs than FtMs so we tend to get ignored and forgotten here. Elsewhere though, FtMs tend to get less visibility because we're lumped together with butch lesbians. Most people think that a woman wearing mens clothes must be a lesbian, and don't even realize that FtM crossdressers (or transexuals) can even exist. A man dressed as a woman stands out as a crossdresser, but a woman dressed as a man more often just stands out as a lesbian.




When women dress in menswear, society sees as liberation. To men, women still seem attractive with short hair, shirts and trousers. When you visit any apparel retail store, the women's section has clothing structured similar to clothes traditionally associated with men, but the men's section does not have any clothing structured similar to traditional women's clothes. There's greater acceptance in society for women trying to fit into traditional men's roles, occupations, etc. The other way around is scorned.

When a MtF crosses the boundary of whatever is considered traditional, people around them are shocked. They get noticed a lot more than FtMs. MtFs also get harassed a lot more. The media publicizes any such transgressions by MtFs and such people are openly ridiculed.


That's not entirely true. As I mentioned above, women dressing in menswear aren't seen as liberated, we're seen as lesbians. And not all men see women as attractive with short hair or male clothes. I can't count the number of men (and women) who've given me grief about that before. As far as occupations, women have far more trouble trying to become an executive than men do trying to be a nurse. I feel disappointed in society as a whole that even in these times, sexism is still so prevalent.



As a result of the social structures, I think that the MtFs get noticed a lot more than FtMs. FtMs cannot be ridiculed or openly discussed in public. Hence it appears that MtFs are overshadowing FtMs.


I'm afraid I must disagree, as a FtM I have been ridiculed and openly discussed in public, many, many times. The crossdressing stigma applies to both genders.

Though it seems more acceptable for a girl to wear pants than a boy to wear skirts, it brings up the difference between girls pants and boys pants. Girls wearing girl pants is fine, but girls wearing boys clothes is much less acceptable, and a girl trying to be seen as a boy is very unacceptable.




Let's find a man who will openly ridicule a woman dressed in menswear in public and see what happens to him next.


Okay, how about any of the several dozen guys at my high school who did openly ridicule me for dressing as a guy. What happened to them? Nothing. They didn't get in trouble, they weren't scorned for their views or treatment of me. All they had against me was my gender presentation, and everyone else thought it was just fine for them to do that to me.


I'm not trying to play the 'who's got it tougher' game, I'm just attempting to point out that FtM invisibility isn't due to acceptance, it's due to ignorance and us being seen as just lesbians and not CDers or transexuals. If we are overshadowed, it's because we've got this invisibility thing where people see us and assume we're something else.

[_Alex_]

Originally in my post I gave a few ideas as to why it might be, I mentionned the numbers thing the lesbian thing, and the MtF may be more shocking/obvious thing along with a few others. I then took them out so that I could see your natural answers.

Although I agree to an extent about it being more acceptable for women to wear men's clothes, I do feel its contextual. And there are limits to the extent it's seen as ok.

If it's a woman, clearly presenting as a woman, whilst in an item of men's clothes, that's when it tends to be less of an issue. As in, maybe just a guy's tshirt. But when more gender variance is shown, maybe no make-up, short hair, whatever, people do tend to find that unacceptable, and you are quickly roled as at least a butch lesbian (I agree, it seems quite common that at least pre-hormones, many transguys are mistaken for lesbians)

I for example in school, presented as male, as much as the school rules allowed, I hair short hair, boy's pants and shoes, though a girl's blazer, and gym kit. A lot of people did consider me a lesbian, but I also got a lot of comments about my gender, including accusations of wanting to be a man, and various offensive terms, and questions.

However, I do agree as far as to say that there are fewer contexts in which male bodied people can wear women's clothes. Generally there are none in day-to-day life, but rather for etertainment purposes (e.g. comedy, theatre.) or as a dare/mockery (frequently I see male sports teams at my university going out clubbing dressed up as women. Where as if they did that to say a lecture, it would suddenly not be ok).


There's greater acceptance in society for women trying to fit into traditional men's roles, occupations, etc. The other way around is scorned.

Which makes some sense in a sexist society, where men have more power. As it's like the 'woman' is trying to 'better' themselves, whereas the 'man' is putting himselves into a weaker position.

But often both are still problematic, because people don't like you crossing gender norms.

[Joanne f]

[QUOTE=ZenFrost;1544416]On this website in particular, there's a lot more MtFs than FtMs so we tend to get ignored and forgotten here. Elsewhere though, FtMs tend to get less visibility because we're lumped together with butch lesbians. Most people think that a woman wearing mens clothes must be a lesbian, and don't even realize that FtM crossdressers (or transexuals) can even exist. A man dressed as a woman stands out as a crossdresser, but a woman dressed as a man more often just stands out as a lesbian.

Although i can see your point it is not necessarily so , it is not unusual to see females doing jobs like , firemen, plumbers,builders, lorry/bus drivers and many more so called male oriented jobs when they will dress the same as the men , but how acceptable would it be for a male to wear a skirt to the office.
He would be a cross dresser and the female would just be wearing practical clothing i cant see that they would all be thought of a lesbians.

[_Alex_]

The particular jobs you gave are jobs that many people would question the sexuality of a woman in that job :p Particularly manual labour jobs such as builders. Not sure about bus drivers, but my own personal bias would at least make me think of butch women, as most the female bus drivers I've seen are either lesbians or masculine women.

But for jobs such as firefighter, builder and plumber, often the clothes they wear are for safety, and people rationalise those clothes, within that context. If people make inferences about the women's sexuality, it tends to be more about the type of work. It's easier to rationalise why a woman who is off to fight a fire needs to have a fire fighter's uniform for safety, then a man (or a woman) would *need* to wear a skirt in the office. Although as woman are typically accepted as skirt wearers, they'd get away with it in the office, a man doing so, is going against his gendered role, for 'no reason'. Same with plumbers and builders (as to firefighting), to an extent, the clothes they wear is out of a need. If you are say working with pipes, with maybe hot water in them, it makes sense to be covered. If a woman turned up to a building site in a skirt or high heels, people would deem it inappropriate for that job, because there is a reason to dress in a certain way. So I think with the type of jobs you listed, it's more acceptable, because those are clothes for that job, regardless of the worker.

To further this, there are some jobs where man do get away with wearing female gendered clothes. Such as actors, and performers. I think the acceptability of wearing the opposite sex's clothes is largely contextual.

[michelle2b]

Alex,

I understand that I used absolute words rather than relative words, and I was wrong in doing so.

However, It is still true that if you are a MtF, you are "more likely" to be noticed (and ridiculed, which is the other edge of the double-edged sword), than if you are a FtM. As a result of the attention that MtFs get in society as a whole, it appears that MtFs are overshadowing FtMs, which I believe is the primary topic here. Other points being mentioned are detours from primary topic.

You are using your own case to discuss your point about ridicule for FtMs. I understand that you have encountered some horribly ignorant and rude people. I am sure many more FtMs encounter similar situations or even worse situations. However, I don't think it is proper to generalize using our own cases. If I were to use my own case, I could state that MtFs are never ever ridiculed (because I never have been). However, having worked with a few thousand transgender people, both MtFs and FtMs, I have got the feel that the ridicule is significantly higher for MtFs than for FtMs. Now, it is possible that the FtMs are more silent about the amount of ridicule they have encountered (hypothetically), or that FtMs are not open towards me to explain their situation (again hypothetically) - so it is definitely possible I am wrong. I do not have a perfect research study to back me up.

The point about the context of the occupation is certainly valid. However, aren't we talking about life in general and not work situations alone? I am talking about getting noticed (or ridiculed) when you are walking along a sidewalk, having food at a public restaurant, sitting on a bus, etc. These are things you would do just to get through life. People do spend a lot of time outside of work. Most MtF people who dress as women spend time as women outside of work, not at work. Most MtFs are not out at work. As you point out, actors, performers, etc do dress as female, which is still about impersonation, not about genuine gender issues. Most of those actors and performers are not even CD/TG/TS/TG/etc. They probably do it for the money or the art, or both. Their work requires them the dress up. Work situations are only one part of life. There are more arenas for getting noticed and I assumed that this was a discussion about life in general.

From your post, I cannot tell if you are saying that you are being called a lesbian (or dyke or any equivalent synonyms) which you consider ridicule (ie. do you see the word lesbian as an insult?) or if you are saying that you are being miscategorized which you consider ridicule. If they call a FtM a lesbian, I don't think the people are ridiculing the concept of FtM; they just don't understand the concept well enough to ridicule it, so they are trying to label such a person as the nearest concept they know - lesbian - and making comments about it. One of the reasons people do not recognize FtMs is because it is "more acceptable" for women to crossdress than it is for men. When men crossdress, it brings more attention. Fewer people are able to recognize FtMs. As a result of these and perhaps many more reasons too, it "appears" that MtFs overshadow FtMs.
:2c:

I would love to see the numbers you were going to use to prove your overall point which you say your removed from the original post. I enjoy that kind of analysis - to evaluate the data and the research methodology. :D

There's one theory I heard a few months ago which said - there are probably the same number of FtMs in the world as there are MtFs, but we find more MtFs than FtMs around us. Because women are able to express themselves "more freely" than men can, the FtMs do not feel the pain "as much as" MtFs in terms of restrictions about expressing themselves.
While this may be true, I don't think that an MtF or FtM who merely wears clothes of the other gender resolves a deeper gender issue. Those who have a deeper gender issue beyond clothes will not be content just because they are able to express themselves more freely.

Another thing about ridicule (again, a detour from the original topic), and I heard this somewhere so it is not my original idea -
No matter what your name is or how you look or how you present or ... people who want to ridicule you will always find a way to ridicule you. Pick any name. At least one person in the world can find a way to make fund of that name. When it comes down to such ridicule, is not you. It's them. There's something wrong with them. There's no point getting upset about people you cannot change on your own.

I am on vacation now, but when I am working, I would need to employ an assistant to observe and ridicule other people. I have a very busy work and personal life to even bother about making fun of anybody, if I ever cared to make fun of anybody. Those who judge us have too much time and they are not even qualified to judge us. They don't have 45 years of work experience or 3 PhDs in fashion or sexuality or whatever else they are commenting about. Their statements are worthless in the scheme of things in this world. When we get upset based on their comments, we give them too much power than they deserve to have.

I know I may be the wrong person to say anything in terms of ridicule with gender expression because I have not faced ridicule as a girl. However, I have encountered enough ridicule on several matters other than my gender and I understand how things are.

[_Alex_]

(I'm sorta just discussing points being made, like my last post was directly a response to someone else... it's partly to get discussion going, because I like just working through ideas, whether they are mine or not. I just find it interesting, and as this site has a larger number of people who are trans or CD, its an oppertunity to do this. I also do trial off, for which I apologise, but I have ADD, and I tend to find it hard to not do so)

I'm not really discussing levels of ridicule, it was mostly in response to yours, Zen's and Joanne's posts). I think I was trying to outline earlier that women do not have unlimited freedom to dress how they want, there are still social norms, however I was implying that the inferences people take from the breaking of these social norms, are different depending on your sex. Which was actually linked (though I may not have made that clear) to perhaps why FtM are overshadowed; perhaps it's because people who notice such gender variance jump to think of female bodied cross dressers as lesbians if they fail to pass, but are clearly not presenting as female within social norms, whereas they more readily class male bodied people in women's clothes as crossdressers. So even if people do see FtM cross dressers, and they have an issue with them wearing men's clothes it's not directly linked in their heads to cross dressing by lesbianism, which makes a level of invisibility. I wasn't saying a FtM being called a lesbian (I use to identify as a lesbian, lots of my friends are lesbians, I dont think it is an insult in and of itself) was ridicule, though homophobia can pursue, depending on where you are.

I also did agree with you on the shock factor, and then added that it's perhaps linked to sexism, which is sorta what I gathered you were saying from the thing I quoted from you.

I wasn't trying to focus on ridicule. I was just trying to, as I said earlier in this post, show that it's not nessecerily because people honestly aren't bothered... it was kinda in response to you suggesting MtFs may be more noticable due to the ridicle they face.

I also wasn't drawing conclusions from my own experiences I was just trying to illustrate that people aren't always accepting of girls in boys clothes, in many contexts. And although I am only one person, I've lived in about 4 different cities, been to about 6 different schools, and visited various other places... so the amount of people who have reacted badly to me wearing boys clothes, and assumed I was a lesbian, is quite a large number. Less actually thought I wanted to be a man, the purpose of most of those comments, I assume were that they thought I identified as female, and figured that telling me I 'looked like a man', or such things, were insulting. If I actually wanted to be a man, then surely that wouldn't be used as an insult. (though my original statement kinda didnt example this, and looks like a contridiction), there have been some people who assumed I was trans, but it was a much smaller number... I think I was trying to just outline that its still not acceptable... cant really remember?)

Also, when I said numbers, I meant some people suggest there are more MtFs, based on those who seek medical treatment. Or on a site like this, it's clear there are more MtFs. But there are no stats on the overall population that I find valid. For instance, you can't determine numbers from those who seek medical treatment alone, or from %s on one website. For example, as it hasn't really been researched, perhaps more MtFs transition, so more seek medical aid? Or in terms of websites, maybe it just attracts more of one group. I know enough about research to know that the stats I've come across in the past are likely to be underestimates and inaccuracte numbers. :p If someone has find fairly good stats, feel free to post them