Thought about Direction in Life & Marriage

[Kelli Michelle]

I am married and have 2 wonderful children ( 14 yr old girl, 18 yr old son). Here is the problem. Since I don't think you can be "sorta" in love, I have to admit that while I do enjoy my wife's company (at times) I am not in love with her anymore. There are lots of reasons. I basically don't like (not hate) much of anything out of her mouth, sadly. She also is not supportive of my cd'ing, but that is just one of the major issues. Mainly, she does restrict my dressing as much as she is able to. Frankly it is on my mind so much, it is hard to concentrate at home, work or anywhere else. She basically has said that if I "go further", meaning more than 2-3 times a month out, or any physical changes, she would not be able to handle it and we would seperate/divorce. If we were still in love, I feel I could honor that for the most part. Because of the kids, I have felt that I should try to stay if at all possible. But I also feel that my yearnings go deeper (or will go deeper soon). However, I need the ability to discover whether I want that or not, and I am finding it difficult, not only getting the time to do that, but to honor my marriage vows (even though the love is not there). I actually know I want to go deeper, but am just scared to bring it up as I know it will mean the end of the marriage. Bottom line: if my kids were not there, I would be gone, and dressing more and figuring out what I want to do in that regard. Any thoughts or advice?

[Shikyo]

I can only speak from my own experience, as being the child whose parents got divorced.

Let me tell how the situation with my parents was, as good as I can remember. Me and my sister, we were still very young. I was around 6 and she was around 8. Often we could hear how our parents disagreed on something, day by day it was getting more common.

Truth is I'm happy they got divorced. I admit, I did not like that I could only see my father occasionally, but it was still better than living under constant stress. At some point I had moved to my dad and the whole situation changed just the other way around, I went to visit my mom every once in a while.
It was not easy dealing with the situation, especially at young age. The children might not be able to understand the situation very well, but latest when they become adults they'll understand the whole situation a lot better. Often the children think it is their fault, and blame themselves about everything that goes between mom and dad.

My advice would be: If you can't really live with your current wife without stress, I' recommend a divorce, not just for your sake but also for the children. However, you should make clear to the children why you are getting divorced, so that they know that it's not their fault. Your children are rather old already, so they'll probably understand why you are doing it.

[Kelli Michelle]

Thanks for the thoughts.

There is definitely stress in our lives. I am not sure my children would feel it's enough to warrant a divorce ( I do though), but even though they are a large factor in my thought process re. divorce, they are not the decision-makers. I do think that they could handle it, but who really knows till something happens? My wife kinda feels like this, " if you want this enough to divorce/seperate, than you must want to go a long way down the line..." meaning with her, it's pretty much all or nothing. I don't feel that way necessarily, but she has sorta forced it into that. Still, if we split, I wouldn't necessarily go too much further. I mean, I may try it and decide "hell no... don't like this.." I doubt it though. Anyway, my wife seems like she would be content to stay in a loveless marriage ( she says she loves and hates me) to keep her kids together, her house, and to outside observers a happy marriage, as long as I don't cross her specific boundaries. As I said before, I would look at those boundaries much differently if we were still in love. But if we were still in love, wouldn't she love me for me, no matter how I dress?

[Shikyo]

Your wife's already making problems, if you think about it. She wants you two to stay together, but does allow you to be the way you want. There's a difference in wanting to live with each other despite of love having died of and to control the other ones life to fit your own.
She has no right to say what you do and you can't do. Be yourself, not what other people want you to be. Sooner or later you will start to regret it. You should have a talk with her. Explain to her, what she is doing to you. How it effects your life and feelings. To make it easier for her to understand, you could compare it to something she likes to do and forbid her that, I doubt she would agree to that. There's no point in sacrificing anything, if she's not willing to sacrifice anything neither.

Being the physical man in the relationship, does not dictate that you'd have to give up everything, especially after the love has died or nearly died. There are limits on how far one can go with rules.
What I'm trying to say is, not for you to get divorced, unless you yourself want it, but more so for you to be able to enjoy your life the way you are. Compromises are never good and are always going to bring more trouble, unless both participants agree to the conditions.

You said that she wants to keep the marriage "happy" for the outside word, the best way to keep up that appearance is to actually for you both to be happy the way you are. If one of you is depressed, annoyed or anything else the cover will sooner or later break apart.

The only thing I recommend you to do, is to be honest with yourself, with your feelings. But no matter what happens, please do not involve your children to this matter. Do not use them as tools, or even just as messengers between you and your wife.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kelli

i have 2 daughters 12 and 14....i love them to death and so does my ex....
the kids are thriving because they know we both love them and WE NEVER EVER EVER let our divorce get in the way of treating them right...

now i'm getting ready to tell them about me so sparks will fly again but i'm hoping that the really strong love bonds we've formed get us through...

if you really beleive you are cd'er by the way, there's no reason for kids to know....if you feel you might be ts, there's no reason for kids to know...but if you are moving ahead with a transition, then the kids must know at some point

i agree shikyo....i was miserable and depressed until i started being honest with myself and that's also a key part of what you're going through..

[suzy]

I have to admit you have some tough times ahead and I am not able to even try to give you guidance on this matter. It is too complex and involves too much. Personally, I think that both of you need to see a marriage counselor. See someone who is specially trained in relationships and personalities.

Divorce is nothing to play around with. It may cause severe damage to not only the husband and wife but especially to the children. It is a life changing event and requires a well thought out and well communicatd approach by professionals.

The best of luck to you. Take your time...there is no rush.:hugs:

[Kelli Michelle]

Firstly, the kids would never be used. They are awesome kids and deserve to be treated as any human human being would be. We both love them unconditionally.

I would classify myself as a CD now, but with leanings toward some type of body modification (either hormones, breast implants, etc) but falling short of full transitioning. I would not feel the need to tell the kids, unless my body is more modified and they would be able to tell (unless they asked me point blank). Regardless the further I go down the path, and the more obvious it becomes, it sorta dictates telling them.

Yes, I have serious issues ahead, and know I am not being completely honest with my wife. As time goes on though, I realize, i could be causing more pain in the long run. i should "come clean" tell her my feelings, and let the chips fall where they may. Let's face it, once i head down the path, it may be very difficult to come back ( should I decide to) with my friends and family. That being said, I do have some support system out there from people who "know" ( my sister, gg friend, friends I have met) and probable support from others ( 2 gay uncles and their sos, possibly one of 2 bros and very outside shot, my dad). I know that I will do this at some point. it is just very difficult to FINALLY go there. :surrender:surrender

[jennylw2]

This is just my opinion, but I think you might consider putting the CDing aside for a bit, then evaluate the marriage without it. I'm not saying give it up, God knows none of us can do that, just take a short vacation. I spent 7 years in a marriage with no love. I stayed for the kids and out of some sense of honor. I was raised to respect marriage and do anything to preserve it. When she finally left me, it was a huge relief. Distressing, depressing and difficult? Absolutely, but also a relief. CDing was not a central factor in that, but it certainly played a part in the background. She never knew about me and still doesn't, but I still think she could sense it. I spent a long time trying to hide and deny it, but I guess it is a part of me just as it is a part of you.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you should look at the marriage without the CDing and decide if it would still be good. Then if you decide to divorce, hopefully you won't blame your CDing and ultimately yourself for it. You can honestly say that the marriage would not have worked anyway. Also, like Suzy said, I think you should see a marriage counselor or at least offer to go with your spouse. I offered multiple times with mine, but she refused. That doesn't seem like much, but at least I can say I tried my best and in the end it was her decision to give up on us. Helps me sleep at night I guess. Oh, and divorce is a bad thing and it does affect the kids, but they are pretty resilient and will adjust to it over time. My son has and he is doing very well now. It's not the end of everything trust me :)

I wish you the best. We are all going through or have been through varying degrees of suffering for our CD/TG, so you are not alone. Hang in there.

Hugz,
Jenny :hugs:

[Kelli Michelle]

I really appreciate the advice. I actually have offered the idea of counseling several times. She too has refused. She sees it as my problem, not hers. Plus I feel she is worried that a counselor will be sympathetic to me, which she would not want.

As far as the marriage goes. there are several problems. CDing is a main issue, but not the only one. We could probably "get along" well enough if that issue was not around. The main thing, though, is that I do not really love her anymore, though in many ways I respect her, and would miss her, and obviously we are bound by many fine experiences with our friends, each other, and the children. Really, this is as much a marriage issue as well as a CD/TS issue. I have offered, besides the counseling, evenings out to support groups, meeting other so's, books, magazines, internet information, etc, etc, etc. I guess I am vocalizing, if that is the word while I am typing, my thoughts to work my way around to doing what needs to be done. That is even harder than working my way around to going out in public dressed, and that is saying something. I hate to bring unhappiness, stress, etc, to so many people if/when I make this difficult decision, though that is already my own world right now.:idontknow:

[jennylw2]

Oh my heart goes out to you sweetie. I've been through it and it hurts. Like resetting a broken bone, it has to be done, but damn does it hurt. But, once it's reset it can begin to heal. The same is true for us I think.

I'm facing a similar situation myself. I'm not married now, but I do have a son in my care and the rest of my family to consider. I am finally understanding that I cannot change or hide who I am. It scares the hell out of me and I know it will hurt my family and friends, but I see no other way through the forest. I imagine you feel much the same.

Your wife sounds much like my ex-wife and my ex-gf (odd that we are attracted to these ppl). If I could have looked in on my relationship from the outside I would have seen how much my SOs did not love me. I believe that true love stays with you through anything, comforts you when you need it, and would jump at the chance to save a relationship in trouble. It doesn't sound like her heart is it in my opinion.

Hang in there Kelli. I still haven't worked up the courage to go out dressed, so you must be stronger than I by far. You will make it through.

Take care.
Jenny

[Sejd]

Hi Kelli
Being in love, and working out problems in a marriage are two completely different things, and they have to be worked on separately. If you are in a marriage and have two wonderful kids, and your wife admits that she does love you, well, then you have some work to do in that department also. It takes two to work out issues, any issue. Some good counseling seems like what the two of you need. I am sure you could get your love for each other back into the relationship. Once that is coming back, your TG issues could be a lesser problem and dealt with in a new light. Try to think hard about this. If your wife started to wear a lumber jack outfit around the house, how would you feel? Probably not very good. I know I would not. I am bringing this up, because, to ask of our partner to just plain accept our gender issues is not an easy thing and demands a lot of love and understanding. In your case, if you want to save your marriage, seems to me you have a lot of good work ahead of you, and seek some help so that you in best case can work it out together.
Remember, that if you are a loving husband (girl) and willing to work with your patner, she might surprise you beyond your imagination. If it still doesn't work, then you gave it your best shot right?
Good luck to you.
Sejd

[MelissaSue]

Kelli-

I identify with your situation in so many ways: married with (in my case, four) wonderful children, do not enjoy my wife's company or even talking with her very much, do not sense that we're in love, know where I would be if the kids were not in the picture. At least your spouse knows about your dressing, however. That is a huge advantage. If you still desire (for emotional, practical or commitment reasons) to be her husband, it might be worth more firmly (yet compassionately) pursing a discussion with her (ideally with a counselor you both can live with, but possibly with the help of one of the family members who also knows about your dressing).

Some of us who are pondering that desire on all three levels have spouses who know nothing of our CDing. In my case, I'm further along the track in regards to acknowledging who I am and even wanting to be anyone's husband, but I am certain that any discussion of the subject in my world would lead immediately to divorce and alienation, and a scarred family in the wake. This, despite the fact that I know my wife would be happier with a spouse who could provide her with the needs that she has.

Like you (I think), I hate the idea of divorce, but sense the relief and honesty that it would bring. If I knew that a discussion (with help from others) would definitely bring that to my wife and to me, and would pave the way to the possibility of understanding when it comes to my children and maybe even some of my friends and business associates, I'd do whatever I could to have that discussion. Finding a trusted mediator within your inner circle might be your best answer.

I'm thinking of you, Kelli. Please take care.

-Melissa

[pruella]

I am married and have 2 wonderful children ( 14 yr old girl, 18 yr old son).

Are you 'out' to your children?


<snip>She also is not supportive of my cd'ing, but that is just one of the major issues. Mainly, she does restrict my dressing as much as she is able to. Frankly it is on my mind so much, it is hard to concentrate at home, work or anywhere else. She basically has said that if I "go further", meaning more than 2-3 times a month out, or any physical changes, she would not be able to handle it and we would seperate/divorce.

Ultimatums are not valid in relationships. What have you offered her in return? "If you don't accept my change and let me go further then I won't be able to handle it and we would separate/divorce" ???

If my wife said that to me I'd say "Fine" and I'd do whatever it was that was the pretense of the ultimatum.

Maybe I'm lucky in my case. But then we have been through a lot.


Because of the kids, I have felt that I should try to stay if at all possible.

Your kids are old enough to be involved in your relationship, to some degree. Time for a family meeting. One for you to tell your kids and one for them to decide how they feel, instanter and in 2 weeks time.


I need the ability to discover whether I want that or not, and I am finding it difficult, not only getting the time to do that, but to honor my marriage vows (even though the love is not there).

Marriage is about adapting and encouraging each other. Not restricting and refusing growth. People who don't embrace each other as they grow and change, head off in different directions.

Did you have a "To Not Crossdress or discover myself as I adapt and change to the world and it's evolution" in your vows?

I recall there is a "for better or for worse" in there and worse can become better. Communication is the key. Sometimes you need a third party to moderate.


Bottom line: if my kids were not there, I would be gone, and dressing more and figuring out what I want to do in that regard. Any thoughts or advice?

Yes, tell your wife that you want a meeting with the children. Everyone is to write their feelings and thoughts on a peice of paper before they say them.

You have little to say. You don't have anything to argue about. You can offer information, suggestions and even questions they might want to ask. But do not say more than "I hear what you are saying, I'll think about that and write it down for our next meeting in 2 weeks."

This puts an end to any chance of anyone arguing. Because YOU don't need to say anything.

You could also propose that as a family, including the children, if they wish, you all go to counseling. My guess is the kids will agree to that. It is nasty boxing your wife in that way, but she has to be able to express herself.

Tell her to pick the counselor of HER choice. Or together pick a random one from the phone book. I have used both methods in a situation some year ago. It worked exceptionally well.

You're desire to resolve rather than ignore or walk away is remarkable. Your wife should take note of that.

Melissa

<snip>married with (in my case, four) wonderful children, <snip> At least your spouse knows about your dressing, however. That is a huge advantage.

Kind my situation :) The bits I've quoted!


Some of us who are pondering that desire on all three levels have spouses who know nothing of our CDing.

You know once these thing are out on the table, it is really much easier to move and plan for the future. Emotions may run wild for a bit, but the key here is NOT to argue back. Take note. Write down what your wife says, ask her immediately if you have understood: "Honey, can you make sure I have this right, you said this, I need to make sure I understand what you are saying so I can think about it more."

You could try the method I used with my wife several times in the first few year of or relationship.

Take a pad of paper. Put the date on the top and her name. On the first page she is to write all the things she finds annoying or negative about you. The first few times you do this the number of pages will be several :)

On the second page, all the things she likes about you. This one is usually short, but it will grow after a few sessions.

On the third page, all the things she feels are things you do or feel together. This one varies a bit depending on the mood.

Now the next thing is for you to do the same.

Exchange papers.

Now go through the list, start with hers, it's a distraction. Each point ask her to explain more, or ask her what he wants you to do to 'fix' the problem.

Get her to write down the fixes on YOUR pad under "Things I need to fix"

Can I stop here and ask if ANYONE can see where this is going?

We haven't done this for several years. I asked her to do it recently after an outburst. She looked at me and said "I was emotionally and I just wanted to say things, they aren't true, they are just anger being expressed. I'm sorry."

I learned something from that. She needs to use me to reflect her anger. So I let her.


acknowledging who I am and even wanting to be anyone's husband, but I am certain that any discussion of the subject in my world would lead immediately to divorce and alienation, and a scarred family in the wake.

Then start on other members of the family first. But you can't live repressed. It's not good for anyone's mental health or anyone's relationships.

And really, relationship do not have to end. You just need to learn how to communicate and sometime explain things to people. My own wife has used the "But I'm not a lesbian and people will think I am" - but it's more complex than that.

BTW I tell her to call me her husband to people if she likes. We went through a phase of "partner" or "spouse" but it felt wrong.

Just like I will always be "Dad" I will always be "Husband" too.


This, despite the fact that I know my wife would be happier with a spouse who could provide her with the needs that she has.

What are those needs? Have you asked her to write them down? Or have you assumed what they are?


Like you (I think), I hate the idea of divorce, but sense the relief and honesty that it would bring.

To me, divorce in many of these situations is an excuse to further avoid, by BOTH parties, the truth.

Afterall, you have been who you are, and who you will transform into, all your life. My wife actually suggested that no matter what my body change are, I will still be who she loves.

I always ask people to ask their issued spouses some simple questions:

1. If I had a motor accident and was a quadriplegic would you still stay married and love me?

2. If I had testicular cancer and had my testicles removed, would you still stay married and love me?

3. If I had penile cancer and had a penectomy, would you still stay married and love me?

You can also add in:

If you had a mastectomy or a hysterectomy do you think I'd stay with you? Would you be any less of the person I married?


If I knew that a discussion (with help from others) would definitely bring that to my wife and to me, and would pave the way to the possibility of understanding when it comes to my children and maybe even some of my friends and business associates, I'd do whatever I could to have that discussion.

I have no problems with anyone. The only people that have problems with me are those who are in denial or are jealous.

Secrets are the cause of relationship failures. Not openness.