Do you think society will ever accept CD's

[bredalee25]

I've been thinking about this alot lately. That maybe one day we as people could walk out our doors wearing what we wanted to wear without the need to try to (pass) as women. That one day if I wake up and decide today i'm gonna put my favorite top and skirt on and just go out the door. It would be nice if one day this would come true.

How about the rest of your thoughts on this.

ttfn

[Teri Jean]

Brenda, I would like to think that day will come but for now having a few that are accepting and one being my late wife's sister is so great. When she comes over there is no panic or changing because she expects me to be dressed and have makeup on. But back to the question; there is a slow movement to accept this life style but again it's slow. Huggs Keli

[Carol A]

A lot depends where you live, I spent most of my life in New Orleans and dressed all the time and there it is a life style people don't think twice about. Now that I have retired and moved into the bible belt if people knew I would be tar and feather. Hay it doesn't stop me as I still can go out and blend in with no problem. Maybe one day people will wise up as they have done with gay and lesbian's but I don't believe in our time. :hugs:

[KarenSusan]

Sadly, I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, Brenda, if at all.

[Celeste]

I feel that to many men see it as an affront to their sexuality or as a challenge to the way they see themselves in their own gender rather than a freedom of expression.I had to grow out of my stereotypes and it took a while,of coarse now I see it from the angle of a CD.If people could ask themselves this,"does the fact that I don't understand something make it wrong"?

We all could benefit from being less critical of others decisions,I for one am much happier in the realization that it is not mine to evaluate others or their decisions regarding anything.

[Lorileah]

It seems to me that the younger generation is more accepting of how we dress. But then I thought the same thing in 1974 and now all those Hippies/Yuppies are grass roots conservatives who have no qualms about driving our economy and country into the ground and have forgotten how they wanted to make the world better for everyone and now only worry what color their parachute is.

Maybe things will change :daydreaming:

[sue ellan]

Sadly, I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, Brenda, if at all.

i agree. maybe in 25 yrs from now.

sue ellan

life is like a roll of tp the closer to the end the faster goes.

[Fallen Angel]

I have to agree with Carol A, alot has to do with the area larger cities seem to be more tolerable /acceptable than smaller towns.

[yms]

I think people are a lot more accepting than you would think. At least tolerant, which is a start. Don't expect anyone to roll out a red carpet for you, but I think most people plain don't care what you wear.

Yvonne

[Holly]

It starts with becomming more accepting of ourselves.

[Bilinda]

It depends on how you define "accepting". In some form, society already does accept cd's. The same way society accepts those with tattoos, body piercings, Goth look and more.

In others words, NO society is completely accepting of ANYTHING! You always have some that don't care, while others are horrified. Also it depends on WHERE you are. Heck the middle east does not accept Americans as a whole, say nothing about crossdressing!

So you have to think of the big picture. Are gays accepted now? Some would say yes, while others would say not even close. Say your gay in Iran and you'll be dead before the next day.

To me cd's are already accepted in the states and UK. But will you ever not see anyone throw you a hurtful look? No, not ever. Just like gays, people in wheelchairs and girls who dye their hair pink.

[Lisa Golightly]

Yes... It just needs to become cool to cd and that'll happen when we as a group stress less about doing it.

[Kelly Greene]

I think that the more we accept and stand up for ourselves the more society will accept us. There will always be someone who will ridicule and make fun of the man in a dress, but that number will dwindle as we gain strength in our resolve to be who we are.

[Kate Simmons]

Doubt it will ever happen by "asking permission" or wishful thinking my friend. It depends on how much we care about what others think and how much that affects being who we are.:)

[LilSissyStevie]

Let's hope not! Half the fun of CDing is poking my finger in the eye of the bourgeoisie.:eek: The other half can't be discussed on this forum.:devil:

[kathrynjanos]

I think we're being a little too liberal in our fondest desires, here. We will never be accepted by everyone, and it is usually those last stragglers who harbor the most hatred for things they don't understand.

Will we be safe walking down the street on a given day? Probably, and soon. Would we still have to worry about those dark corners? Definitely.

For a more historical comparison, society as a whole has no issue with African Americans, but you'd better believe that there are still plenty of people out there who would harm any of them if given the chance. It's truly a sad commentary on humanity that differences are less often celebrated than feared.

[Toni_Lynn]

Not as long as rubbish like Jerry Springer, Doctor Phil, etc continue to exploit and objectify us. Not as long they continue to believe that the drag queen culture and its more outrageous participants are what we are.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[kathrynjanos]

Not as long as rubbish like Jerry Springer, Doctor Phil, etc continue to exploit and objectify us. Not as long they continue to believe that the drag queen culture and its more outrageous participants are what we are.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

I'm sorry that Jerry's show did damage to so many groups of people, but that was really because so many people were willing participants to it. Their own fault.

Jerry is actually very intelligent, he's a former mayor, and very liberal. I can't honestly blame the man for just trying to make money. Listen to his NPR show sometime.

[Christina Nicole]

Accepted or not, I don't care. I want to pass as a woman. Otherwise, there is no point for me. But I'm more TS who can't transition than a crossdresser.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Carole Cross]

Before I started going en femme I didn't think that many people wou7ld be accepting, but it seems exactly the opposite is true. THere are a lot of places where I can go and noone would say anything and just treat you like they would anyone else. Most people just don't take any notice of you even if they do clock you. I was out last night and I was clocked on the way to the bar where I was going, probably more than once and noone said anything to me. I even got a lot of praise from a girl who was about 20 and she even kissed me on the cheek before she left. I think the younger generation are accepting of us and most of the others just don't really care what we wear.:)

[bredalee25]

You all have alot of different and interesting thoughts. Lets hear more of them from those of you who read this but didn't care enough to comment. I still look forward to the day I can walk out the door wearing femme clothes with no make up,wig or different walk to pass.

To be honest with you I just enjoy wearing the femme clothes without all the other stuff. It takes alot of effort and time to make ourselves look female to blend in. Time and effort i'm growing tired of but still I do it just to be able to walk outside wearing my girlie clothes.

ttfn

[Emily01]

accepted? - maybe in urban areas
tolerated? - more likely for the most part
approved of? - nope, not in my lifetime
do i care? - not in the least
would it matter? - not much, it's an inside job

[kathrynjanos]

Before I started going en femme I didn't think that many people wou7ld be accepting, but it seems exactly the opposite is true. THere are a lot of places where I can go and noone would say anything and just treat you like they would anyone else. Most people just don't take any notice of you even if they do clock you. I was out last night and I was clocked on the way to the bar where I was going, probably more than once and noone said anything to me. I even got a lot of praise from a girl who was about 20 and she even kissed me on the cheek before she left. I think the younger generation are accepting of us and most of the others just don't really care what we wear.:)

You make a fair point, Carole. The younger generation does tend to be more accepting, women in particular.

[Darla L]

I agre with the posts stating that we will never be accepted by everyone, but I do believe that we will be accepted by the majority of our culture eventually. Look at how many things have changed and become socially accepted in the last 50 years. And, mostly these changes come through education. When society becomes informed enough to realize that we are not a threat to them and that we are just expressing ourselves, they become more tolerant. And as we gain acceptance when we interact with mainstream people they will realize that we are just like they are. We are people who have our individual desires and interests just like everyone else. Even in manly mode and associating with male friends, I do not have the EXACT same interests or hobbies as they do. Yet, we are friends because of SOME of our interests. So, as we present ourselves in public with the same behavior we normally have, society will become more tolerant and eventually more accepting to the point of not really caring what we as individuals do or how we dress.

In that ye harm none, do what ye will

[Crystal Alberta]

I think it's inevitable that society will become more accepting as time goes on. Just look at the strides made by the gay and lesbian community over the past forty or fifty years. With CDs, it's already starting to happen, at least in more urban areas and among the younger generation.

Crystal

[PamelaTX]

Yes, but for society to be more accepting it has to see more of us. The more CDers that come out of the closet and live their lives as ordinary people, the more accepting society will become. Most people think of us as Drag Queens or some other sort of weirdo. Once people see that, in most respects, we're ordinary people who just want to go about our lives, acceptance will come.

[Kelli Michelle]

Not everyone, no matter what their "bent" is is accepted everywhere. We are no exception. Also, one can't legislate the way people feel. People are entitled to their opinions. I mean people don't HAVE to like us or what we do or are. What we should be shooting for is (at least) knowledge that we are not all weirdos (thank you Jerry Springer, and movies that portray so many Cd, and Tg people as serial killers and perverts), that what we are doing is not illegal, and that social politeness applies to us, just like the other lifestyles that fit the first 2 points of this sentence. It would also be nice if people would call out those people that speak unkind, untrue, etc. remarks about us. That will take some time I am afraid, and more than 25 yrs. However, unless we ourselves continue to go out and meet people, and educate them, all they will have to believe in will be what's on tv and the movies. Sooooooo...... get out there ladies, have fun, and engage freely with people that are curious. That is an opportunity we should embrace!!!:gh:

[Katrina red nails]

It would be nice to think so but I don't think it will happen in my life.
time

[Prissy Linda]

Sadly I don't think it CDing will ever be accepted in mainstream society. If a person who crossdresses doesn't accept themselves then how is society expect to do so. Then there are the CD's who just dress for the sexual thrill so can you imagine a 50 something year old man who looks like a lumberjack showing up at a local Walmart dressed in a mini skirt and heels?

Another example of why we will never be accepted is because so many of us won't even share something as important as our feminine side with our wife or SO before we get into a relationship with them, instead we hide it for years then spring it on them later and expect them to be supportive.

I'm sure I will offend someone with these remarks but please understand I don't mean to offend anyone here, everyone has been so nice in welcoming me to this forum and for that I am thankful to all of you.

Just my thoughts
Linda

[Debutante]

If society would change to accept the feminine more... if the dominant paradigm was not patriarchal and masculine, and instead would honor the feminine (and Divine Feminine)... the world would be better for women, girls, the transgendered, GLB, etc... Let us work to make it so...

[kathrynjanos]

If society would change to accept the feminine more... if the dominant paradigm was not patriarchal and masculine, and instead would honor the feminine (and Divine Feminine)... the world would be better for women, girls, the transgendered, GLB, etc... Let us work to make it so...

Don't make me start the ::coughLiberalHandWringingcough::, please, cause I'll totally do it. I'm a liberal, and yes, there are places in the world where women do not get treated equally, but by the same token, I get the same crap because I'm a tall white male in reverse discrimination.

Women, and conversely, we, need to go out and make our own way in the world, and one-up the people who try to stand in our way. You need to let their crap just make you stronger. Sorry if this opinion makes anyone here get ancy, but I've seen too many people complain that they're being held back for one reason or another, when it's more that they allow themselves to be held back so they can be a victim.

As was already said here, I think that the more we accept ourselves, and work with our loved ones to accept us, the faster everyone can accept us. We just need to destroy the stereotypes that surround what we do and live how we want.

[Ressie]

now all those Hippies/Yuppies are grass roots conservatives who have no qualms about driving our economy and country into the ground and have forgotten how they wanted to make the world better for everyone and now only worry what color their parachute is.


Sorry but that is such a generalized statement that it's just incorrect. And the economy is off topic.

I predict that crossdressing will be acceptable in the year 2080. To bad I won't be around to say I told you so...

[Debutante]

As was already said here, I think that the more we accept ourselves, and work with our loved ones to accept us, the faster everyone can accept us. We just need to destroy the stereotypes that surround what we do and live how we want.

Yes! of course we have to do the work... do our part... struggle for personal change...I know that. I was making a macro observation. But a fundamental change to a feminine paradigm certainly is a goal we might strive for...

[battybattybats]

In the late 80's when I finally got my hands on some goth clothing goths were feared, hated and not acepted. Today there is one that goes against stereotype on NCIS, there are Goth kids shows. It's been about 10 years since i got a shouted insult or bad reaction for being goth.

General acceptance for extremely different and hated people is possible within 10 years at least and my daily life as a Goth proves that!

And Goths didn't conform, didn't tone-down, didn't try to fit in but did the opposite. Were outrageous and weird. We sat in parks and discussed poetry, we moved through shopping malls alone and in groups. And we bought goth things from stores and made and sold goth things at markets and eventually the internet.

The end result? Even in rural towns there are out goths, there is globally goth media of every imaginable sort, goth video games, goth industry, goth business, goth market.

And people realised we were mostly friendly, polite, intelligent and harmless.

In the western world goths are widely accepted.

Us crossdressers can do exactly the same. Carefully to be safe (most goths stuck to specific accepting clubs and to public places at first where violence is uncommon) but we can.

Progress isn't inevitable. Change happens when people change things and encourage others to do the same. Peiople have been making the change thus far. So long as more join them more will change but if they are not helped then when the generations change and older changers burn out from exhaustion it can collapse.

So then, we are all benefiting now from the work of CDs and TSs and DQs and DKs of the last several decades.

The question you must ask is, do you want things to keep changing? Then join in bringing about the change! Do you want things to change faster? Then do more to change things!

But if you don't help you are not just riding the coat-tails of the hard work of others but also risking all that has been gained thus far!

CDing has been accepted in many societies throughout history. Cding can be accepted generally within our lifetimes!

So then, what will you do about getting that acceptance?

[Nicki B]

Sadly, I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, Brenda, if at all.

It depends (to a degree) where you live, some places seem to be more backward than others - but I'd say in many places it's already happened?

I've just got home after attending a 40th birthday party in the Midlands (in a football club bar) - Kieron & I were the only trans people there and we were welcomed and completely accepted by people of all ages (8-70)?


approved of? - nope, not in my lifetime

It's my experience that we often meet with approval and encouragement, for being brave enough to show the world who we really are... Don't underestimate ordinary, decent people?


If society would change to accept the feminine more...

Society's not just gonna change by itself though, is it? It will only change by the actions of us as individuals showing others we exist and that we're nothing to fear or despise? :strugglin

[bredalee25]

In the late 80's when I finally got my hands on some goth clothing goths were feared, hated and not acepted. Today there is one that goes against stereotype on NCIS, there are Goth kids shows. It's been about 10 years since i got a shouted insult or bad reaction for being goth.

General acceptance for extremely different and hated people is possible within 10 years at least and my daily life as a Goth proves that!

And Goths didn't conform, didn't tone-down, didn't try to fit in but did the opposite. Were outrageous and weird. We sat in parks and discussed poetry, we moved through shopping malls alone and in groups. And we bought goth things from stores and made and sold goth things at markets and eventually the internet.

The end result? Even in rural towns there are out goths, there is globally goth media of every imaginable sort, goth video games, goth industry, goth business, goth market.

And people realised we were mostly friendly, polite, intelligent and harmless.

In the western world goths are widely accepted.

Us crossdressers can do exactly the same. Carefully to be safe (most goths stuck to specific accepting clubs and to public places at first where violence is uncommon) but we can.

Progress isn't inevitable. Change happens when people change things and encourage others to do the same. Peiople have been making the change thus far. So long as more join them more will change but if they are not helped then when the generations change and older changers burn out from exhaustion it can collapse.

So then, we are all benefiting now from the work of CDs and TSs and DQs and DKs of the last several decades.

The question you must ask is, do you want things to keep changing? Then join in bringing about the change! Do you want things to change faster? Then do more to change things!

But if you don't help you are not just riding the coat-tails of the hard work of others but also risking all that has been gained thus far!

CDing has been accepted in many societies throughout history. Cding can be accepted generally within our lifetimes!

So then, what will you do about getting that acceptance?

Yes goth people are more accepted now. The one BIG difference is goth people aren't trying to live as a different gender. They are just changing thier appearance to the world.

It's quite a bit different for CD's we've got to change our appearance to that of the other gender in order to be who we are.

It is a good example of how society changes and accepts different types of people but getting society to accept a gender bender or CD will be quite alot more difficult.

Hope i didn't offend you.

ttfn

[battybattybats]

Yes goth people are more accepted now. The one BIG difference is goth people aren't trying to live as a different gender. They are just changing thier appearance to the world.

It's quite a bit different for CD's we've got to change our appearance to that of the other gender in order to be who we are.

It is a good example of how society changes and accepts different types of people but getting society to accept a gender bender or CD will be quite alot more difficult.

Hope i didn't offend you.

ttfn

I'm not offended.
But it's true that for many people mixing gender is seen as worse than crossing over from one gender to the other. Yet Goth is filled with Gender Mixing.

Just look at Marilyn Manson for starters. Guys in makeup with painted nails and man-skirts are common amongst goths.

Thats all gender-bending, and of a more confronting form than a conservatively dressed CD who fits peoples expectations. And yet it is getting regular acceptance!

[Violet]

Yes, but for society to be more accepting it has to see more of us. The more CDers that come out of the closet and live their lives as ordinary people, the more accepting society will become. Most people think of us as Drag Queens or some other sort of weirdo. Once people see that, in most respects, we're ordinary people who just want to go about our lives, acceptance will come.

But, the thing is, Drag Queens are ordinary people, too! They might be more flamboyant and out there than the average CDer, but they are no more weird than you are. The average person who doesn't struggle with gender identity just has no reason to learn what all the different types and levels of gender are. Since I found out about my SO's crossdressing, I have made a point to learn about these things, but before that, I didn't realize there was a difference between being transsexual and transgendered, I had NO clue what cisgendered was, I thought transsexual, transgendered and drag queen were interchangable... It's just a question of education, really, and public perception. But, yeah. Drag queens? No weirder than a cross dresser. Just different.



Yes goth people are more accepted now. The one BIG difference is goth people aren't trying to live as a different gender. They are just changing thier appearance to the world.

It's quite a bit different for CD's we've got to change our appearance to that of the other gender in order to be who we are.


Well, but not all CDers are trying to live as a different gender. I've read a huge amount of posts here from CDers who don't give a hoot if they're read. My SO has no desire to present as a woman-- he likes to wear a bra and forms with his regular clothes (though he does wear significantly tighter tops when he's in the forms. :heehee:).

And, really, there are people out there who would argue that CDers are "just trying to change their appearance to the world." You would probably argue that, and say, "How do YOU know? You don't CD, you don't know what it's like." You would be correct-- but it's just as impertinent for you to assume you know what goth kids have gone through, and what they are trying to portray to the outside world.

There is no hierarchy of suffering, here. Goth kids don't have it any better or worse-- they just have different struggles.

ETA: So, yeah! I never answered the OP. I think CDers will eventually be more accepted, yes. It's already happening. Anyone here into anime and manga? They are chock full of gender bending! I think things will continue to become more open. I also think there will always be close-minded people who won't accept anyone who is different from the 'norm.' Fifty years ago, do you think ANYONE would have thought that gay couples would be able to legally get married ANYWHERE? It's still a struggle. It's still not legal everywhere. Gays are still persecuted. But do you see the progress that has been made? It's not enough, I don't think, and I am still horrified about the whole Prop 8 thing, but if you compare it to where this country was fifty years ago, it's like night and day. I think that same thing can happen with CDing.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

Margaret Mead

[Debutante]

Society's not just gonna change by itself though, is it? It will only change by the actions of us as individuals showing others we exist and that we're nothing to fear or despise? :strugglin

Yes, Vicki... as I said just at the end of my quote:
"let us work to make it so".
Changing the paradigm isn't done by a simple wish... It takes work. But educating ourselving as to the greater problem is a start -- and we start by taking small individual steps, changing (by accepting ) ourselves, working as groups, doing coalition work, getting ourselves out there in public, speaking with friends, doing education, etc. etc.

I did political work in the Boston area in the 1990s: co-founded a TG support group: AXA; founded the Trans Gendered Alliance -- which did political work for the political and civil rights of the transgendered.

[Carin's Wife GG]

we have seven chidren, ranging in age from 22 down to 14. All of them accept thier father as a transgendered person. And all their close friends and partners do too.

As their mother I am very proud of each of them. This is how we raised them, to be accepting (not just tolerant) of all people, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion.

Carin and I are going through a divorce. It is incredibly hard for both of us. We have tired to honor respect and integrity throughout this process. For ourselves and most importanly our children.

On Tuesday we will welcome in a new president. I did not believe we would see a person of color as president in my own lifetime. And I will see it and celebrate.

I do believe that in our lifetimes we will see full acceptance of the transgended community.


Louise.

[Karren H]

I doubt it will happen in my lifetime...

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Not anytime soon, I'm afraid
JoAnne Wheeler

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

In time, people will be able to dress however they want. Society's big problem with anything sexual, whether overly sexual in appearance or nature, or non-conforming to one sex or the other, will subside. Look how different things are now from the 50's.

As the generations of small-minded, different-hating, intolerant people die off, the rules will change because each new generation is more accepting of social differences than the last. The problem is I, and many of us, will die off with them. :( Our time is unfortunately not infinite.

To echo many of the other posts, I believe it will happen. I just won't be around or young enough to enjoy the benefits.

For the record, I'm one of those who wants to pass, period. I don't have any problem with anyone who doesn't mind looking like a man in women's clothes - to each his/her own. I prefer to look like a woman when I'm wearing women's clothes. I love women so much, I really want to look as feminine as possible when I dress. I wouldn't want to be seen en femme unless I was completely made up and could achieve a minimum level of passibility, even if society accepted crossdressing as a normal form of self-expression rather than some horrible deviant behavior.

[Joanne_2003]

If history does in fact repeat itself then yes men will get to wear intimate apparal. In the past men wore corsets, wigs and long flowing gowns. I want to know which of our stupid forefathers gave up our right.

[MarcieM]

(a simple one word answer)

NO

[Mirani]

I work and socialise as Mirani.
I know having my own business helps, as I make my own rules!

Before Christmas, I met with my account manager at the bank. I told her that I wanted to sign papers and cheques as Mirani. She said "easy" all I did was give a specimen signature and she added Mirani to the account.

I live in Brighton. I am treated as an "ordinary" person whatever I do, wherever I go. Sometimes I am as invisible as anyone else, just going about my business. Sometimes I am seen as a guy dressing as a woman.
I am accepted here.

[Tamera]

Society is accepting TG's more than used to. Now if we can just get more employers to hire us for our capabilities instead of what they see. Some do hire TG's I would just like to see all do this. Be nice to see a TG in the White House.
Hugs,
Tamera

[Lorileah]

Pre-emptive apologies to anyone this may insult

Father Pat and father Mike were walking and Pat says, "Mike do you ever think priests will be allowed to marry?" and Mike answers "Not in our lifetime but maybe in our children's lifetime." I think that may apply to us...maybe in our children's

I suspect Lori is headed for time out on that

[Nicki B]

Yes, Vicki... as I said just at the end of my quote:

I'm guessing you mean me.. :heehee:

I was trying to use your words as a more general prompt for people - I didn't intend to question your individual commitment, sorry.

[Tasha McIntyre]

Yes... It just needs to become cool to cd and that'll happen when we as a group stress less about doing it.

That's a great answer Lisa.

Unfortunately there will always be sections of the general community that won't accept anything, whether its being gay, or part of any minority group really. Just my :2c:

Would love to be able to just wander relatively seamlessly and unnoticed in the open world dressed as I pleased....maybe one day :daydreaming:

[Stephanie32]

As a social conservative deep in the closet. I have had to come to terms with being a CD. So I have spent much time thinking about how the least understanding of us could progressively come to accept this.

The path of much resistance such as through the gay example of California prop 8 by being self centered and pushy was not successful. Many people find these tactics extremely annoying and resisted. In that context how can we ask others to respect our values and beliefs if we do not respect their long standing traditional values and beliefs? I advocate a path towards less resistance.

A CD with a linebacker body, a face like John Wayne going to a mall wearing an evening gown will create more societal resistance than a CD who quietly goes out at night to a house party or club or dresses up for a renaissance fair for that matter. By taking a stepping stone approach by asking for a little at at a time while maintaining respect for the societal status quo. Mutual understanding and empathy will be more likely to be achieved than through pushy behavior by drag queens.

[Jamie001]

Society will never accept CDs until CDs accept themselves. Gays accept themselves whereas CDs don't. That is the disadvantage.:2c:

[Tamera]

You know Jamie001 I always wondered,

An alcoholic must admit to himself that he is an alcoholic before he can get cured.

Do we as Transgenders have to admit to ourselves that we are Transgendered before we can come to terms that this is the way it is and there is no fix.

Seems that some are in denial and have a hard time coming to terms with their Transgender.
Hugs,
Tamera

[fiona_libby]

Unfortunately I do not see widespread change in the attitudes of the general population, maybe in small pockets, particular communities but not a acceptance of cross dressers world wide.
Fiona :hugs:

[curse within]

Yes I do.....I think it already has....but gender bending no!!!!

[MJ]

yes they will the problem is many of us are still in hiding and until we all get out there in the real world nothing will change. maybe very slowly

[curse within]

Ok we have all heared it here hundreds of times...Women can dress in clothing known for men..Why is it they can do it but we can't?? Your answer with all due respect to the FTM forum and I whole heartedly mean that.. ASK THEM!!!

You will find very few of these members agreeing with you... Why because it is not a dressing issue and all about the gender bending issues..Right guys? ^5

[battybattybats]

As a social conservative deep in the closet. I have had to come to terms with being a CD. So I have spent much time thinking about how the least understanding of us could progressively come to accept this.

If more inroads can be made into conservative culture on this issue, including forging bi-partisan support it would vastly speed up change.


The path of much resistance such as through the gay example of California prop 8 by being self centered and pushy was not successful.

Self centred? While I'm in another country and there may have been things i didn't see I sure didn't see any self-centredness nor can I conceive how a call for equality can be self-centred on principle. Surely it is a call for people to be true to the notions of liberty and equality for all? Aren't those traditional conservative values in the USA?

As for pushy, history is filled with examples where people had to stand up directly to fight for liberty and equality. Much of womens rights were gained by suffragettes marching for example. Isn't fighting directly and openly for liberty and equality also traditionally conservative American values?


Many people find these tactics extremely annoying and resisted. In that context how can we ask others to respect our values and beliefs if we do not respect their long standing traditional values and beliefs? I advocate a path towards less resistance.

Indeed it can be true that sometimes people dig theur heels in. But some people will just ignore the softly-softly approach too. As for respecting traditon... monarchy was also a tradition. Slavery too. Many traditions should be respected, plenty should be utterly destroyed. And plenty a person need not share for another to still enjoy.

For example a gay person having a non-traditional marriage does not harm a straight persons traditional one unless the straight person is really a closet gay and it is only the benefits of marriage that keeps them in it or unless the only value to the traditional marriage is in not letting others have it. Otherwise the traditional marriage is in no way harmed by the existence of the non-traditional one. Just like a Protestants faith should not be harmed by their being a Catholic Church in the same town as the Protestant one they attend.


A CD with a linebacker body, a face like John Wayne going to a mall wearing an evening gown will create more societal resistance than a CD who quietly goes out at night to a house party or club or dresses up for a renaissance fair for that matter.

Sure, but if that linebacker wins acceptance they succeed far more for equality and liberty. Goths didn't wear just a little black or discrete skulls. The less extreme dressing Goths benefit from the acceptance that the most extreme have gained. Greater equality that way.


By taking a stepping stone approach by asking for a little at at a time while maintaining respect for the societal status quo.

That may work, or it may not. How much respect is the societal status quo due when it is in the wrong? Also, how moral is such an action when it involves not just personal self-sacrifice but knowing sacrificing others?


Mutual understanding and empathy will be more likely to be achieved than through pushy behavior by drag queens.

Yet the uncompromising Goths have won substantial acceptance, for them and for others. But if they had been restrained for the sake of the less extreme Goths... One group having to wait, having to suffer further for the sake of others, those who will gain the benefit of acceptance and the unaccepting group whose fault is the problem in the first place (because surely if the founding enlightenment principles of equality and liberty for all were followed from the outset it'd be a non-issue), then where is the equality in that? The fairness in that?

And vigorous assertion of equality and liberty is different from being pushy. George III was hardly receptive to gentle requests for independance for example.

That doesn't mean there aren't better ways of getting messages accross. Sure. But equality for CDs but not DQs and DKs? Wouldn't that make us bad, make us guilty of the same injustice? And worse make us traitors to the principles of equality and liberty that for centuries have been the foundation of the post-monarchy world and the very principles we use to back our own claim? Wouldn't that invalidate our own claim to our rights, our equality, our freedom?

Leaving drag queens and linebackers behind, asking them to stay quiet and suffer on the behalf of those more passable, that just seems utterly wrong to me.

Sure it might be easier... for those who would benefit from it! It'd be harder for those who make the sacrifice though!

Personally I don't think that would be a fair request to make of others. That we may have to find the way to get progress without leaving them behind.

[Cathytg]

I imagine that a time will come when society will accept CDs. It will probably be a slow progression of kinds of clothing that will OK. Just look at what is happening now: men can wear tights and bras. However, I do wonder what it will all look like. I am afraid that the clothing will cease to be exclusively women's and become fairly generic. I mean, women can now wear pants al they like, but the pants are usually women's pants. Can you imagine a time when men cam wear dresses but these will be men's dresses?

If that happens, I wonder if CDing will simply become a rare thing because it will have lost its aura of femininity.

[Tamera]

I work as a server at Big Boy and take orders from all kinds of people. No one cares that I am a TG. Some ask questions, and I answer them. Some even ask me to be their server on their next visit. And the tips, well that just tells me that I am doing a GOOD job and the patrons appreciated my service.
So every person I meet is another person that gets aquainted with the TG world.
Hugs,
Tamera

[battybattybats]

I work as a server at Big Boy and take orders from all kinds of people. No one cares that I am a TG. Some ask questions, and I answer them. Some even ask me to be their server on their next visit. And the tips, well that just tells me that I am doing a GOOD job and the patrons appreciated my service.
So every person I meet is another person that gets aquainted with the TG world.


Now that is awesome!
Your helping people get used to TG and your also living proof that there is already much greater acceptance than most of us can even imagine!

[Stephanie32]

Batty
You need to be more concise in your arguments for them to be read by others. So I will address but a few.

[/QUOTE]As for pushy, history is filled with examples where people had to stand up directly to fight for liberty and equality. Isn't fighting directly and openly for liberty and equality also traditionally conservative American values?[/QUOTE]

With the world economy in shambles, and troops pulling out of Iraq. I think the world specifically America is tired of fighting and debating. Politically Obama is moving to the center, and the Republicans nominated McCain who was a moderate.

[/QUOTE]That may work, or it may not. How much respect is the societal status quo due when it is in the wrong? Also, how moral is such an action when it involves not just personal self-sacrifice but knowing sacrificing others?[/QUOTE]

On what authority do you have to say and dictate what is wrong with mainstream society? Most of us like it just fine, and find comments like that extremely arrogant. As for personal sacrifice I'm a closeted CD. I don't presume to tell my family and my community that I'm right and they are wrong. I'd be laughed at if I did that en femme.

[/QUOTE]Leaving drag queens and linebackers behind, asking them to stay quiet and suffer on the behalf of those more passable, that just seems utterly wrong to me.[/QUOTE]

What about the rest of the public's right to not witness disturbing behavior. Weather it be somebody in a crowded movie theater who doesn't shower for a month, or a couple making out in a public park in full view of children. Most of society demonstrates discretion because it is polite. We are part of that society as a whole. Those rules applies to us too.

[/QUOTE]Sure it might be easier... for those who would benefit from it! It'd be harder for those who make the sacrifice though! Personally I don't think that would be a fair request to make of others. That we may have to find the way to get progress without leaving them behind.[/QUOTE]

We make that sacrifice by hiding our femme selves every day. Its a hardship you get used too. Whether it is morally right or not is not the issue. I'm not making the request that people change their behavior. I am offering an alternative method to achieving an greater acceptance by convincing those who find this disturbing and won't buy the civil rights argument. Hence this is a less disruptive means for us to be femme without disruption to our normal lives.

[battybattybats]

Batty
You need to be more concise in your arguments for them to be read by others. So I will address but a few.

I get long winded when the cognitive symptoms of my legally recognised disability are bad. I do realise your not being intentionally ablist merely reflecting an ablist bias in general internet life but it is alas still ablist. Please see http://caveofrationality.blogspot.com/2009/01/chronic-ablism-pervaisive-throughout.html


With the world economy in shambles, and troops pulling out of Iraq. I think the world specifically America is tired of fighting and debating. Politically Obama is moving to the center, and the Republicans nominated McCain who was a moderate.

This has nothing to do with what I was saying. Times being more or less tough have no bearing on what is just or unjust.


On what authority do you have to say and dictate what is wrong with mainstream society? Most of us like it just fine, and find comments like that extremely arrogant. As for personal sacrifice I'm a closeted CD. I don't presume to tell my family and my community that I'm right and they are wrong. I'd be laughed at if I did that en femme.

On the authority of logic. Of the obvious and unalterable philosophical hypocracy. To found a system on principles of universal equality and then to extend that equality only to some is to be clearly false, self-refuting and therefore wrong! It's that plain and simple! And just because 'most' like it is no excuse at all.



What about the rest of the public's right to not witness disturbing behavior. Weather it be somebody in a crowded movie theater who doesn't shower for a month, or a couple making out in a public park in full view of children. Most of society demonstrates discretion because it is polite. We are part of that society as a whole. Those rules applies to us too.

I see there is much of philosophy you don't understand, from where rights come from (no-one has a right not to witness other people freely exercising their rights. Unless they are literally bailed up, tied down or otherwise retrained but then it is the restraint and not the difference being witnessed that is an abuse of rights) to moral and ethical reasoning. For an understanding of rights you'll be wanting to read up on the enlightenment. Thomas Hobbes Leviathan and then it's criticisms, Hume, Locke, Voltaire etc. (oh and don't miss considering Rawls 'Original Position' 'Veil Of Ignorance' tests when comtemplating any criticisms of any of these) You can find the basics of all these ideas online.

Social mores as moral yardstick are easilly refuted. Simply all the greatest wrongs of human history from pedophilloia to slavery to genocide have been socially acceptable ergo social standards are no valid measure of right and wrong. The keyword you'll want to follow on with in your reading is Ethics and you'll see that most ethical reasoning is quite compatible with On The Rights Of Man and subsequent works.



We make that sacrifice by hiding our femme selves every day. Its a hardship you get used too. Whether it is morally right or not is not the issue. I'm not making the request that people change their behavior. I am offering an alternative method to achieving an greater acceptance by convincing those who find this disturbing and won't buy the civil rights argument. Hence this is a less disruptive means for us to be femme without disruption to our normal lives.

Nope, it's a hardship some get used to. Some are not so able or who choose not to. Consider that when you ponder the Veil Of Ignorance. Your earlier post suggests people with a linebacker physique should remain unseen so that more passable CDs are able to gain acceptance. All to protect the discomfort of some at the expense of the liberty and equality of others, yet all steps towards genuine equality of liberty involves real discomfort that later generations find baffling. See: http://caveofrationality.blogspot.com/2008/10/antiseptic-stings.html

Goths were quite 'disturbing' and now we have Ruby Gloom and Growing Up Creepie on kids tv. And Goth is and always has been filled with gender non-conformity. I see no difference for gaining acceptance between it and TG.

[kathrynjanos]

Ok, so, here you go.

As I said, but perhaps to elaborate, you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. Like ANYONE who is different, some people will always hate us. Sometimes it's true, some people who hate us fear us, sometimes they fear being one of us, but sometimes it's just plain ignorance. That kind of ignorance gets passed down, but is not necessarily inborn into people, which means that it can and should be combated. If nothing else, for the most part, that kind of ignorance breeds itself out.

I think that in the end, we will achieve the same kind of acceptance the gay community has. Basically bordering on my "tolerance of convenience" concept. What I mean by that is it all comes down to whether the person recognizes that a) we don't pose any threat to their lifestyle, or that they needn't go out of their way to accepting us, and b) that we have some sort of positive influence on society as a whole, not necessarily because we dress, just that we as people do not drag society down.

That right there is the key for most people: Does this affect me in any real way? Once most people realize that it has no direct bearing on their lives, they stop caring. We see this in everything from gay issues to, unfortunately, September 11th and the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. Though I don't mean to make comparisons to these kinds of tragedies with our otherwise inconsequential issues, it is the point I am trying to make. People (Americans) would generally rather focus on pointless shit than real issues, and so if we take it out of their focus, they'll stop worrying about it.

[JulieK1980]

If more inroads can be made into conservative culture on this issue, including forging bi-partisan support it would vastly speed up change.



Self centred? While I'm in another country and there may have been things i didn't see I sure didn't see any self-centredness nor can I conceive how a call for equality can be self-centred on principle. Surely it is a call for people to be true to the notions of liberty and equality for all? Aren't those traditional conservative values in the USA?

As for pushy, history is filled with examples where people had to stand up directly to fight for liberty and equality. Much of womens rights were gained by suffragettes marching for example. Isn't fighting directly and openly for liberty and equality also traditionally conservative American values?



Indeed it can be true that sometimes people dig theur heels in. But some people will just ignore the softly-softly approach too. As for respecting traditon... monarchy was also a tradition. Slavery too. Many traditions should be respected, plenty should be utterly destroyed. And plenty a person need not share for another to still enjoy.

For example a gay person having a non-traditional marriage does not harm a straight persons traditional one unless the straight person is really a closet gay and it is only the benefits of marriage that keeps them in it or unless the only value to the traditional marriage is in not letting others have it. Otherwise the traditional marriage is in no way harmed by the existence of the non-traditional one. Just like a Protestants faith should not be harmed by their being a Catholic Church in the same town as the Protestant one they attend.



Sure, but if that linebacker wins acceptance they succeed far more for equality and liberty. Goths didn't wear just a little black or discrete skulls. The less extreme dressing Goths benefit from the acceptance that the most extreme have gained. Greater equality that way.



That may work, or it may not. How much respect is the societal status quo due when it is in the wrong? Also, how moral is such an action when it involves not just personal self-sacrifice but knowing sacrificing others?



Yet the uncompromising Goths have won substantial acceptance, for them and for others. But if they had been restrained for the sake of the less extreme Goths... One group having to wait, having to suffer further for the sake of others, those who will gain the benefit of acceptance and the unaccepting group whose fault is the problem in the first place (because surely if the founding enlightenment principles of equality and liberty for all were followed from the outset it'd be a non-issue), then where is the equality in that? The fairness in that?

And vigorous assertion of equality and liberty is different from being pushy. George III was hardly receptive to gentle requests for independance for example.

That doesn't mean there aren't better ways of getting messages accross. Sure. But equality for CDs but not DQs and DKs? Wouldn't that make us bad, make us guilty of the same injustice? And worse make us traitors to the principles of equality and liberty that for centuries have been the foundation of the post-monarchy world and the very principles we use to back our own claim? Wouldn't that invalidate our own claim to our rights, our equality, our freedom?

Leaving drag queens and linebackers behind, asking them to stay quiet and suffer on the behalf of those more passable, that just seems utterly wrong to me.

Sure it might be easier... for those who would benefit from it! It'd be harder for those who make the sacrifice though!

Personally I don't think that would be a fair request to make of others. That we may have to find the way to get progress without leaving them behind.

Exactly my thoughts on this! I couldn't have said it better, so I'll just quote it.:thumbsup:

[Stephanie32]

I have found it fascinating how the lefties praise their open mindedness yet are so quick to attack anything they disagree with, rather than engage in constructive dialogue with somebody who shares the same goal but whose approach is different.

End

[Lorileah]

I have found it fascinating how the lefties praise their open mindedness yet are so quick to attack anything they disagree with, rather than engage in constructive dialogue with somebody who shares the same goal but whose approach is different.

End
What difference does it make which hand you use?

[Heather_Marie]

I am an optimistic person and I think over time that we will be accepted, It takes people witan open mind to help us out. I mean look at what day this is Martin Luther King Jr. Day he had a dream and it came true. I also have that dream that everyone will be treated the same. So I think we will be treated that same.

[sherib]

I've read all the post concerning " Will cross dressing every be accepted". No matter how we feel, it will NEVER be accepted. NEVER. Man has always been considered the hunter/gatherer the warrior and protector. Thats how the male is portrayed and thats how eh always will be portrayed. Wearing a dress while chasing down a deer just don't cut it. even if he can.

[JulieK1980]

I have found it fascinating how the lefties praise their open mindedness yet are so quick to attack anything they disagree with, rather than engage in constructive dialogue with somebody who shares the same goal but whose approach is different.

End


Being on the far left isn't much different than being on the far right. Neither one is good for the country, as by definition they only cater to half the people. The balance truly is in the middle. Partisan politics and beliefs are tearing our country apart, and are counterproductive to everyone.

[Lorileah]

I've read all the post concerning " Will cross dressing every be accepted". No matter how we feel, it will NEVER be accepted. NEVER. Man has always been considered the hunter/gatherer the warrior and protector. Thats how the male is portrayed and thats how eh always will be portrayed. Wearing a dress while chasing down a deer just don't cut it. even if he can.
I never say never and always avoid always. You can not say never. 100 years ago the thought of a woman in slacks would have been abhorable yet it is the standard. 200 years ago men in make-up tights and pumps were the social cream. Things change. Mel Gibson seemed to be a pretty good "hunter/gatherer" wearing a skirt.

[gennee]

Some people will; others won't. It doesn't stop me from going out in public. I have a chance to educate someone. I have accepted myself and enjoy being myself.

Gennee


:)

[Nicki B]

Sure, but if that linebacker wins acceptance they succeed far more for equality and liberty.

The bravest trans people I've known are TSs who look like that - but transition, anyway - because they've no choice.

They'd argue that, because they had no choice, it's not courage - but it certainly takes courage to show yourself, day after day, and make people treat you as you need them to? (I'm thinking in particular of two girls who work as bus drivers - they've both been physically assaulted, in their cabs.)

When we ALL fight for acceptance, we fight for everyone else, not just ourselves.



I have found it fascinating how the lefties praise their open mindedness yet are so quick to attack anything they disagree with, rather than engage in constructive dialogue with somebody who shares the same goal but whose approach is different.

End

Mmmm. So you can't make any meaningful argument, then? :sad:

That's usually what it means when someone just stoops to insults.. :(

[Lee51964]

It is my greatest hope that we shall all be accepted for who we are and be loved for our differances

[Carly D.]

Cross dressing is a hard nut to crack... I'm of the mind that if you live in a big enough town then nobody really would care.. but the smaller the town the tougher the sell that we are normal.. I'm normal.. I want to think I'm normal.. I know that when I buy shoes at the payless store that I am thought of as just a person buying shoes.. and not a pervert buying womens heels to wear or do something unimagineable in later..

[Nigella]

I seem to recall reading somewhere on here where a person was "invisible" to the community in which he lived and was not noticed when he passed away.

Well we can become the same, spend enough time out in your community and you become "invisible", part and parcel of everyday life.

Just my humble opionion.

[Teri Jean]

Brenda,
I took your question and put it to the test, so to speak. by going dressed to a casino a couple hour drive from my home. This is in the heartland of the midwest, on a sunday, where the majority of the clientel was farm folk. I dressed in jeans, flats, wig, makeup, nice rose colored top and of course 40D forms. Everyone was polite including the staff and I had a wonderful day. Like a few others have said it could be different in different locals or envirorments but the fact is many of the things we take for granted were won over issues that needed to be explained or fought for.
In general when people educate themselves or begin to understand this will not rub off on you or make you a CDer against your will they may come to a more accepting way of looking at someone that crossdresses. Keli

[Kelli Michelle]

Well done Keli-h (love the name). I am trying to do more things like that too. We need to try to push our own envelopes, so to speak, as much as we can, in a respectful, and appropriate way for the places we go. Some haven't reached that comfort level yet, but for those of us willing to put ourselves out there it may help the rest to the point where one day we can all come out and enjoy ourselves.

[billie earls]

Keli-h: When people are in a place that is outside their every day environment they will behave but when they get into a place where they feel comfortable their attitude changes. What I think is important is to speak up especially when in drab when we hear statements putting any one down. This is what causes people to think before saying stupid stuff. It like when we hear the N. word if we speak up and say we don't want to hear that people will stop saying it. Now will we be accepted, yes some day, not tomorrow, one day people will realize that life is full of differences and that its to our best interest it to get along and not put people down because they are different from us.

[Schatten Lupus]

Acceptance probably will happen, and probably sooner than later. Anymore, no one will even think twice or give a second glance to a girl who is wearing all men's clothes.

[battybattybats]

I've read all the post concerning " Will cross dressing every be accepted". No matter how we feel, it will NEVER be accepted. NEVER. Man has always been considered the hunter/gatherer the warrior and protector. Thats how the male is portrayed and thats how eh always will be portrayed. Wearing a dress while chasing down a deer just don't cut it. even if he can.

I'm afraid your another victim of the deliberate erasing or unreporting of us in history and anthropology. Let me give you some examples which you can look further into. Don't take my word on it, the information is out there to corroborate all these it's just not talked about.

Samoa: accepted and valued part of society. The Fafafine (and there are multiple spellings of that) are a 'thrid sex' of crossdressing males which look after the house and children of their extended families and are most mens first sexual experience!

Tonga: Accepted and valued part of society. At coronations of the king and royal marriages it is a crossdresser who arranges the celebrations! (there is footage of this from the last Royal marriage in an old thread in the media section!)

Native America: many tribes had MtFs and FtMs as extremely sacred, often shamans. Some of the chiefs famous to white america regularly consulted CDs for their advise.

Ancient Greece: was accepted and sacred. The Cybaline faith for example was made up entirely of MtF priestesses who were castrated as a primitive form of SRS

Ancient Scythia: Accepted and sacred. The main faith was the goddess associated with horses. The priestesses were MtF who not only were castrated but drank the urine of pregnant mares for their hormones. They also had warrior women of high rank. They defeated Rome on several occassions!

That's the tiniest tip of the iceberg. Examples can be found amongst cultures right around the world and right throughout history. So you couldn't be more wrong about acceptance but with the silence on the subject thats hardly your fault.

The fact is that acceptance has been common throughout human history. UNacceptance instead is in much of the world quite new!

[Christina Nicole]

I doubt the inevitability of acceptance or the norming of crossdressing. Looking at the history of western civilization there is a cyclical pattern in mores. Societies become very conservative, then chafe at the restriction and become looser. Again, some point is reached where society reacts to the extreme permissiveness that seems like anarchy and returns the other way. How far out on the swing to permissiveness before it turns the other way is the question.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Violet]

Ancient Scythia: Accepted and sacred. The main faith was the goddess associated with horses. The priestesses were MtF who not only were castrated but drank the urine of pregnant mares for their hormones. They also had warrior women of high rank. They defeated Rome on several occassions!


Awesome! Ancient Scythians were the first people to develop Premarin (pregnant mare's urine-- common drug given to menopausal women to help with hormone imbalances)! I doubt the Scythian mares had quite as crappy a time as the modern day ones, but I also doubt the Scythians were mass-producing the hormones, either.

[beenherelongtime]

too much thinking gives me a headache.

[Celeste]

Acceptance is moving forward,think back to the 60's,bet it was quite a challenge for tg folks going out then, compared to now.Just that in itself is something to be grateful for.

[Di]

The more CDers that come out of the closet and live their lives as ordinary people, the more accepting society will become. Most people think of us as Drag Queens or some other sort of weirdo. Once people see that, in most respects, we're ordinary people who just want to go about our lives, acceptance will come.

I agree with...... you are ordinary people who want to go about your life and acceptance will come.

But the comment about Drag Queens. :o I just do not get that
I guess being accepting of others that are different than you you might have to accept some one else for who he or she is, you first must accept yourself For it is then some one can have an appreciation for others; appreciate and accept yourself first.



Begin With Self-Love and Self-Acceptance

[Marjory]

I noticed a change a attitudes about 1990. I would go in and but a pair of shoes in a size nine and the girls started asking if I wanted to try them on. I said no one time and the girl said "you'll love them, they're so comfortable". After that I always tried them on.

[kathrynjanos]

I agree with...... you are ordinary people who want to go about your life and acceptance will come.

But the comment about Drag Queens. :o I just do not get that
I guess being accepting of others that are different than you you might have to accept some one else for who he or she is, you first must accept yourself For it is then some one can have an appreciation for others; appreciate and accept yourself first.



Begin With Self-Love and Self-Acceptance

I totally see your point, but the note about drag queens is a fair one. The ones I've MET (that is, ran into in person and in some cases spoke to, however briefly) seem... off. That is, they didn't seem entirely normal. Whereas we would be perfectly normal people in or out of dress (even if we may alter our voices and mannerisms depending).

My prime example is this one that I see fairly regularly on the Metro North train I take home from NYC in the evenings. A very large black masculine drag queen (platform heels, black fishnets, SHORT hot pink skirt, black tight see through shirt, and BLEACH BLONDE WIG) frequently rides the train in the evening, and looks about as crazy you can get.

I have no doubt that this particular example is actually out of his/her/its mind. But it's just one of several. Others have been a little bit distant and almost "not there." I wouldn't discount drugs being involved, though, which would certainly account for some of the behavior.

[battybattybats]

I totally see your point, but the note about drag queens is a fair one. The ones I've MET (that is, ran into in person and in some cases spoke to, however briefly) seem... off. That is, they didn't seem entirely normal. Whereas we would be perfectly normal people in or out of dress (even if we may alter our voices and mannerisms depending).

Watch who your calling normal! It can be a terrible insult. I'm proud not to be 'normal' as normal has wife-beaters and pedophiles amongst it because thats the best place to hide when you have something sick and evil to hide! But amongst the weird are the kindest nicest gentlest and best people I've ever met! People unafraid to be honestly different. So I'd rather be amongst the weird then the normal, because almost the rot corruption, hypocracy and evil is amonsgt the normal.


My prime example is this one that I see fairly regularly on the Metro North train I take home from NYC in the evenings. A very large black masculine drag queen (platform heels, black fishnets, SHORT hot pink skirt, black tight see through shirt, and BLEACH BLONDE WIG) frequently rides the train in the evening, and looks about as crazy you can get.

Good. Eccentric people are usually safer than the predators who hide in sheeps clothing of 'normal'. And liberty means liberty, not a slight choice of conformity A or conformity B.

I've seen more outrageous clothes than you describe on GG goths in my own town! Including a friend of mine!


I have no doubt that this particular example is actually out of his/her/its mind. But it's just one of several. Others have been a little bit distant and almost "not there." I wouldn't discount drugs being involved, though, which would certainly account for some of the behavior.

Well drug-use is often one way people try to cope with things like the trauma of oppression and repression and the family abandonment that many especially older TG people have gad to face when coming out.

And there is lots of mental health issues many face too. Only through more acceptance can we get rid of these problems of drugs and mental helath problems amongst our community.

So consider universal acceptance of free expression. And maybe those people will be able to be happy and ok in the future!

[Satrana]

I noticed a change a attitudes about 1990. I would go in and but a pair of shoes in a size nine and the girls started asking if I wanted to try them on. I said no one time and the girl said "you'll love them, they're so comfortable". After that I always tried them on.

I agree with your timeline, by 1990 the gay pride movement was making good headway and was changing social values. People began to accept the notion that being gay was "normal" and gays were not perverts and child molesters. Since lay people think CDs are gays, we benefited from this progress.

I am surprised at those who are so negative about social acceptance. There has been substantial progress made over the last few decades and the rate of change is accelerating. The advent of the internet is blowing away traditional conventions. Individualism and liberal progressiveness is rampant especially among the younger generations. This is why we have witnessed a strong backlash from traditional conservatives but it is nothing more than a futile last stand.

We are only a few decades away from acceptance and we could greatly accelerate progress by active campaigning. The current generation is too closeted and timid to take up the challenge but not so the next generation. In 20 years time there will be public CD rallies and marches and widespread acceptance will come quickly thereafter.

[sometimes_miss]

I'd say it will take quite a while before we are accepted by the general population, especially outside major cities, and acceptance won't become widespread in our lifetime. There's too much stigma attached to guys displaying feminine behavior of any type for it to ever be considered 'normal'; we're going against thousands of years of evolution here. And when you want to take it one step further, where we are understood and accepted by the women we are interested in, well, none of us are going to live that long. There's too much genetically influenced attraction for that to become mainstream.

[stacy566]

One day, all people will be able to dress as they want without being ridiculed, it may not happen tomorrow, but I see it in my lifetime.

[kathrynjanos]

Watch who your calling normal! It can be a terrible insult. I'm proud not to be 'normal' as normal has wife-beaters and pedophiles amongst it because thats the best place to hide when you have something sick and evil to hide! But amongst the weird are the kindest nicest gentlest and best people I've ever met! People unafraid to be honestly different. So I'd rather be amongst the weird then the normal, because almost the rot corruption, hypocracy and evil is amonsgt the normal.



Good. Eccentric people are usually safer than the predators who hide in sheeps clothing of 'normal'. And liberty means liberty, not a slight choice of conformity A or conformity B.

I've seen more outrageous clothes than you describe on GG goths in my own town! Including a friend of mine!



Well drug-use is often one way people try to cope with things like the trauma of oppression and repression and the family abandonment that many especially older TG people have gad to face when coming out.

And there is lots of mental health issues many face too. Only through more acceptance can we get rid of these problems of drugs and mental helath problems amongst our community.

So consider universal acceptance of free expression. And maybe those people will be able to be happy and ok in the future!

So now who's generalizing? You can be weird and still be mentally healthy, but "not normal" is what I'm defining as seeming distinctly UNHEALTHY. Whether by some mental illness or through drug use, it doesn't matter.

Now, you're talking about using drugs to COPE with whatever societal ill you feel has befallen you or the people refer to? Yeah, sorry, escapism is NOT coping, you're just running away from it and never dealing with it. And yes, I know that some people cannot be reasoned with and will never change their opinions, but that's their loss. That's why people seek support from friends and strangers, both online and in person. Realizing that something is not necessarily your fault is important. Drugs will NEVER help you deal with that, because now in addition to being some pervert to this person or people, you're also a druggie, and quite possibly an addict.

And while we're on the subject of weirdos being better than the normal people, you should look up David Berkowitz. So let's not defend the abnormal by blanket statement either.

[Lorileah]

What do we want? women's fashions! When do we want it? Now!

Why? Because if you watch many science fiction movies about the future we will all dress alike anyway. The only thing different will be the tapering.

Is this a guarantee? Nope, look at the original StarTrek. I would much rather dress Like Uhura than Spock. But you also notice that there were no transgender major characters. Now we know Sulu was in the closet but he didn't come out until he retired. (Don't ask don't tell in the 25th century?).

So we have two scenarios here, androgynous jumpsuits or cute minis. I vote the minis and hope that there really were transgendered crew on the Enterprise.

[DameErrant]

Watch who your calling normal! It can be a terrible insult. I'm proud not to be 'normal' as normal has wife-beaters and pedophiles amongst it because thats the best place to hide when you have something sick and evil to hide! But amongst the weird are the kindest nicest gentlest and best people I've ever met! People unafraid to be honestly different. So I'd rather be amongst the weird then the normal, because almost the rot corruption, hypocracy and evil is amonsgt the normal. older TG people have gad to face when coming out.

:2c:
I agree! In fact, part of the fun in CDing is that it allows me to be myself and not just "blend in" with the herd. Normal is simply a statistical average of what everyone else is doing, and who wants to be average? Or just like everyone else? I simply want to be myself, and be left alone by the drones who want to know, "Why can't you be like everyone else?" as if that was such a great thing.
:daydreaming::heehee:

[JulieK1980]

I'm not sure why drag-queens are such a bad thing according to some of the people in this thread, but while doing drugs to escape the behavioral problems some face is not good, it is most definitely not surprising. I don't think any one in here said drug use is a good coping mechanism, but to solve the problem people need to ask WHY do they do it?

I find it very interesting, that so many crossdressers attack people that are different than themselves. Its a lot like some in the gay community attacking transgenders. Having personally experienced discrimination, and fear of rejection due to our ways, you would think would make us more understanding of those that are different and outside social norms. Just because someone is a drag queen doesn't make them any better or worse than a crossdresser. It just makes them different. We ourselves live in the delusion that we are a part of "normal" society. Just because many of us hide in the closet, and live seemingly "normal" lives doesn't give us the right to persecute those that don't live in the closet, and live different ways than ourselves. Blaming the "weird" people for lack of societal acceptance is quite frankly inexcusable.

[Melanie R]

I do not beleive that in my lifetime there will be 100% acceptance of transgendered persons. I do know that President Obama and The White House have provided on the White House web page the following statement of their support for all of us. No other president gave this statement. Of course the religious right are gearing up to fight Obama for their right to continue to hate:

Support for the LGBT Community
"While we have come a long way since the Stonewall riots in 1969, we still have a lot of work to do. Too often, the issue of LGBT rights is exploited by those seeking to divide us. But at its core, this issue is about who we are as Americans. It's about whether this nation is going to live up to its founding promise of equality by treating all its citizens with dignity and respect."
-- Barack Obama, June 1, 2007

Expand Hate Crimes Statutes: In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported and made up more than 15 percent of such crimes. President Obama cosponsored legislation that would expand federal jurisdiction to include violent hate crimes perpetrated because of race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, or physical disability. As a state senator, President Obama passed tough legislation that made hate crimes and conspiracy to commit them against the law.
Fight Workplace Discrimination: President Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and believes that our anti-discrimination employment laws should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. While an increasing number of employers have extended benefits to their employees' domestic partners, discrimination based on sexual orientation in the workplace occurs with no federal legal remedy. The President also sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Melanie

[Christina Nicole]

I do not beleive that in my lifetime there will be 100% acceptance of transgendered persons. I do know that President Obama and The White House have provided on the White House web page the following statement of their support for all of us. No other president gave this statement. Of course the religious right are gearing up to fight Obama for their right to continue to hate:



The nice thing about bigotry is that it is equal opportunity. Whether one leans to the left or the right, there bigotry that fits.

[battybattybats]

So now who's generalizing?

I'm showing that an accurate representation of odds based around the sound logical notion that predators work better with cameoflage (as seen throughout the natural world) is in fact in opposition to the generalisation based on a logical fallacy, that someones failure to conform to social 'norms' is a good predictor of their danger to you or that conforming to social norms is a good predictor of that safety.

But certainly by all means everyone should be judged on a case-by-case basis and judgement by groups is frought with error.


You can be weird and still be mentally healthy, but "not normal" is what I'm defining as seeming distinctly UNHEALTHY. Whether by some mental illness or through drug use, it doesn't matter.

But appearance and even behaviour is no predictor of that. Behaviour may be caused by disability like learning difficulties, cognitive impairment, autism, aspergers etc that are no predictor of a persons danger!


Now, you're talking about using drugs to COPE with whatever societal ill you feel has befallen you or the people refer to? Yeah, sorry, escapism is NOT coping, you're just running away from it and never dealing with it.

Oh I do thoroughly agree. Self-medication is no successful way of dealing with problems, but it is the most common cause of drug misuse. Hence fixing the broader social problems and preventative measures to minimise mental health problems in society will reduce the drug problems in the community and also many forms of related crime. But absolutley drug-use may seem to the user to give short-term relief but in the long-term makes things vastly worse.


And yes, I know that some people cannot be reasoned with and will never change their opinions, but that's their loss. That's why people seek support from friends and strangers, both online and in person. Realizing that something is not necessarily your fault is important. Drugs will NEVER help you deal with that, because now in addition to being some pervert to this person or people, you're also a druggie, and quite possibly an addict.

I agree! But it's important to understand people before judging them. And it's important to understand causal relationships when attempting to solve a problem. The best way to help these people in the long-term is to raise public acceptance of TG.


And while we're on the subject of weirdos being better than the normal people, you should look up David Berkowitz. So let's not defend the abnormal by blanket statement either.

I never said every strange person was a good one. Merely that strange people are per capita vastly dissproportionately good people when compared to the 'mainstream' population, as the sociological studies of Goths shows. Sure there are some violent Goths, but studies have shown that Goths are one of the most peaceful non-violent communities around, and while there are high proportions of things like depression and self-harm amongst those who enter the Goth community it does not mean that parents should be worried that their happy Goth teens will become depressed and self-harming because they are goths but in fact the opposite as the studies have shown the Goth community is in fact advantageous and healing to such people with its extremely high levels of acceptance of difference and emotional community support!

But certainly there are exceptions like amongst any other community which is why assuming every goth is safe is just as irrational as assuming that normal people are safer than weirdos.


The nice thing about bigotry is that it is equal opportunity. Whether one leans to the left or the right, there bigotry that fits.

There is no hatred for the religious right in accurately reporting that they are opposing equality and that they wish to defend their freedom to hate. That's just accuracy. Hopefully their policies will change. I have friends who are both religious and conservative and I do not hate them. The fact is that as a movement they do oppose universal equality, that they oppose equality for LGBT people. It is note hate to state that fact.

But you are right, there is bigotry amongst all groups. A blatent hypocracy in any supposedly egalitarian system, especially as the validity of anyones rights is predicated on it being available equally to everyone.

What's worse is that those leading such opposition are lying so often. With the lies about the bathroom issues for TG people for example where they know that there has never been a rise in assaults by allowing TG people to use presntation-appropriate bathrooms anywhere in the world yet they are producing public advertisements stirring up fear and hatred with lies that say that such provisions will result in such.

A deliberate statement of falsehood designed to ensure an inequality and injustice using fear and inspiring hatred? That is hate pure and simple and stating that fact is not hating.

Not every conservative christian is anti LGBT. I do hope they will speak out enough on the issue to reform their movement.

[bredalee25]

WOW!!! is all I can say at the number of posts that have come in on my one little question. Alot of different views on this one. It even sparked a bit of an argument between a few of you. None the less it has given me some hope for not just us but future CD's.

Maybe one day a CD can walk among people without worry. It's possible anythings possible.

ttfn

[sherib]

The last thing I want to say about this post. Crossdressing will be tolerated in public as long as the CD is passable or close to passing. They will not be tolerate it they look like a man in a dress or dress like some of the people they show on TV. I don't think at anytime we will be accepted by the general public.