My Ramble - Is it just me?

[jenn25wnycd]

Hey,

I know I'm new here and all.. but I have been reading this forum for around 4 months or so and I just really need to vent about what I am perceiving. There are a LOT of us out there yes, but really are there that many of us that are so BOLD and SELFISH? When you talk about having enough guts to go 'OUT' or the REDICULOUS notion of going to work dressed (understand that there is a difference between going to work DRESSED with makeup or bra that would be CLEARLY visible, and just wearing panties and hose, which I have done)...and not having the slightest feelings on how others would perceive you or the ramifications it would have on friends and family. I'm NOT going all high and mighty on everyone so please don't take it that way.
The whole thing of expressing ourselves and ' this is who I am' thing.. I GET IT! But do we really have to flaunt it out in the open like so many of us do? Or in reality, do we just go on this forum and LIE through our teeth about how bold and daring we are, and stay in the closet? Do I LOVE being a crossdresser? When I'm doing it yes!!! Does it cause friction between relationships we have with SO's or family, or even children? YES. Do I like having a part of me that I have to HIDE? NO! Nobody would ever WANT to do that, but lets get a reality check here.... Is society in general EVER going to accept a man in a skirt and heels? NO. It's just not going to happen. You all know it as well as I do.
There have been a few posts before, and I am paraphrasing, about what we give up.. what will be acceptable... how we all WISH to find a SO that will be accepting... fairy tales... all BS. The reality of the situation is... we accept it as who we are... and you wonder why the whole association with gay/lesbian behavior has with crossdressing... It's because THEY (gays or lesbians) have to accept it themselves before it can be brought out in the open and they can go into damage control mode with friends/family/children. We WANT acceptance, but it's not acceptance we get, it's tolerance. So why then can we not all SEE this, and not push the boundaries and flaunt it out there like it's a disease or a condition, oh please feel for me.. pity me..
You are who you are, if I told you my STORY, what is it that I am looking for? Pity? Acceptance? The knowledge that I'm not alone? I know that already, I'm not naive anymore like when we were kids and felt the guilt associated with crossdressing. But I'm also not naive enough to believe HALF of what is on here is total BS and wishful thinking. Really, do we ALL want to just leave our loved ones behind and all be flight attendants? REDICULOUS! Is it good fantasy? Yes. Reality? NO! Do we all love being a MAN as much as every other man out there? I bet most of us do, not because we HAVE to, but because we are used to it.
I would be dumb to not admit I LOVE crossdressing. But I also know that it's not something that should rule someones life. Anything in excess is bad for you, whether it is shopping for shoes, or alcohol, or not paying attention to yourself, or paying too much attention to yourself. We all have lives that we live, we all can do whatever we want, whenever we want, we have that gift of freedom. But it just seems to me that no matter where you look these days, it's the ALL or nothing attitude.......my two cents.


Bring it..........

[MissConstrued]

Vice: too much of a good thing.

[Karren H]

Don't profess to have guts... Or be braveish... More like bordering on stupidity most of the time... Relaying ones experiences is part of a "Forum".. Else we would have nothing to discuss except maybe how many panties we each have... Lol

I just like to talk about crossdressing and makeup and fashion.... So call me selfish...

[battybattybats]

The rammifications, long-term, of flaunting is acceptance. Of people getting used to the difference and being fine with it. Like when 'uppity' women weren't happy with just some minor schooling but wanted jobs and to go to University and to wear pants.

Can we even imagine women being arrested for wearing pants anymore?

There is a bhuddist term which means 'idiot compassion' where you try and protect someone from pain or discomfort that is neccessary for their growth.

And all increases in equality, especially visible increases involve real discomfort and pain! When whites had to share swimming pools with aboriginals they thought were disease-ridden for example. Or when men had to share classrooms and pub rooms and workplaces with women.

In fact that discomfort is temporary. And it is less than the suffering of those who have suffered the inequality for the sake of others discomfort.

I get acceptance as a Goth, a largely androgynous one at that. Last night i went shopping with a friend while I was wearing dark red lipstick with quite male goth clothes during peak time at the supermarket. No one made any negative comments.

Thats not selfish. It's merely the fair use of freedom.

[jenn25wnycd]

What? Explain for the novice that I am please.

[battybattybats]

What? Explain for the novice that I am please.

Explain which?

[Tamara Croft]

BOLD and SELFISH REDICULOUS BS

I've quoted this bit, to make sure the MTF's on this forum don't miss it and to see how many slam you for saying it, just like they slammed me for saying it... I'm betting they don't... I'd say I agree with you, but hey, I'm not allowed... :sad:

[jenn25wnycd]

I can understand and even accept the fact of pushing the boundaries within reason of course, but what I don't get is the fact that more than 1/2 of the posters on this forum are married.. would that be too presumptious to say? And of they are married, one would then presume they have children and families.... it just seems to me that a lot of people on here don't take that into account and are living this fantasy world... maybe thats what the internet is... I'm not JUDGING ANYONE... Everyone can live how they want... I do.... but to flaunt it and bring it upon others without a care in the world is idiotic.... how many people would throw their NOW lives away if they could start over and be that WOMAN they always wanted to be? If so, maybe they should be in a transsexual forum? Oh well... i'm sure I made some people out there think, and some to get mad, and some maybe to think. Then again, maybe not.

Sorry, I wanted Karen to explain.

[Kelli Michelle]

Wow, that was indeed a ramble.

It seems to me that on just about any web-site that discusses everyday life, there is going to be a fair amount of posturing, wishful thinking, and downright lies. But surely there are also posters who are speaking the truth, no?

I would think that the notion of going to work dressed, just to do it, would seem at worst, insane to me. On the other hand, I would think that most that do it, are further along the path, so to speak, and are going to live full-time as a women. I suspect also that no matter what activity we do, there are obvious thoughts as to the repurcussions. or potential ones, anyway.

While I agree that many people or flamboyant and that yes, some people "flaunt" it, most of the people that I know or that post on here, are not in that category.

Relating experiences of a lifestyle that is so restricted and frowned upon, is sometimes uplifting and encouraging to those of us who need that encouragement. Heck, I don't even mind those that are just bragging. Who wouldn't brag a little about overcoming something that can be so difficult to achieve?

I also don't expect that leaving spouse's and loved ones is taken in a cavalier way, either. Are you kidding me? Obviously (hopefully anyway) most have tried every alternative and sought every possible method of helping spouses, so's and loved ones, understand and cope with this issue. But, let's face it. There are degrees of being transgender. For someone that only likes to crossdress once in while, leaving a loved one over that would seem crazy. But, for those who are wired differently, not leaving would be the only answer, if the wife/so would not accept it.

I do agree that tolerance is what we normally get, though there is sometimes acceptance, just like sometimes non-acceptance. Maybe you could explain exactly what you mean by flaunting btw.

Your comment, "But I also know that it's not something that should rule someones life. Anything in excess is bad for you, whether it is shopping for shoes, or alcohol, or not paying attention to yourself, or paying too much attention to yourself." It depends on what you are speaking about. Would you feel that way if you were transsexual? What about if you were somewhere in between that, and that dressing wasn't just a hobby?

Any habit in excess can be bad. But the real question for each person is, " Is this a habit or a part of who you are as determined by your brain. Also, since many people have been restricted for many reasons in exploring this whole issue, it may take months or years to discover what the answer to those questions is.

[battybattybats]

I can understand and even accept the fact of pushing the boundaries within reason of course, but what I don't get is the fact that more than 1/2 of the posters on this forum are married.. would that be too presumptious to say?

I didnt think it was that high though I could well be wrong. Anyone got some moderately reliable stats?


And of they are married, one would then presume they have children and families....

Children certainly not all will have, families a small number may no longer have living relatives but certainly many will have both.


it just seems to me that a lot of people on here don't take that into account and are living this fantasy world... maybe thats what the internet is... I'm not JUDGING ANYONE... Everyone can live how they want... I do.... but to flaunt it and bring it upon others without a care in the world is idiotic....

Well itd be interesting to see how many proportionatly actually do that, especially considering the numbers who are deeply closeted to protect their loved ones from it!

And as for those who do are you certain they do so with no care towards their loved ones?

Consider this dilemma. A CDs child may also grow up ot be a CD or a nephew or a cousin. By not pushing for acceptance now are they not betraying the next generation of CDs?


how many people would throw their NOW lives away if they could start over and be that WOMAN they always wanted to be? If so, maybe they should be in a transsexual forum?

There is substantial overlap between the CD and TS communities and many CDs as they start to undo their repression discover they are really TS. That is not neccessarily any sort of choice. GID is a recognised medical condition (though its classification the subject of great debate) and if someone is genuinely TS then transition is likely the appropriate medical treatment to prevent co-morbidity mental illnesses breakdowns and suicide!

wouldn't placing the notion of appropriate medical treatment for an illness as some sort of selfishness because it is shocking for others be like saying that someone with gangrene shouldn't have their foot amputated to save their life because having them around without a foot would be shocking to the family?

After all, the suicide rate amongst TSs unable to transition is horrific and thus it is quite possibly very very comparable to the gangrene amputation analogy.


Oh well... i'm sure I made some people out there think, and some to get mad, and some maybe to think. Then again, maybe not.

I love thinking :) Thats why i enjoy philosophy which, as the saying goes, is like thinking.. only harder.

[Kate Simmons]

Most folks miss the real point. It's not so much about being bold or subtle, it's more about getting in touch with the associated feelings and developing the ability to manage them.:)

[docrobbysherry]

I have no argument with much of your post, except you seem to be painting ALL OF US, with the same brush!:brolleyes:

MOST of us here, ARE CLOSET CDs! Living out our fantasy, female existences, in complete privacy! ( With exception of this, and other CD web sites).:D

There r a SMALL number here, who r very vocal, AND very bold! As u stated!
They seem to post a lot, and have the courage to LIVE their, " I'm REALLY a female", dreams! Many are NOT simply CDs! But, are TS/TG individuals! :eek:

Are ALL of us here, selfish in our own ways? Well, I'm having a hard time coming up with any reasons to disagree with u on that!:doh:
However, doesn't the Bible say to, " Love thyself"? So, maybe that's not such a BAD thing?

[jenn25wnycd]

The whole thing for me, and maybe I'm being a bit ridgid.... There is an obvious difference between being a crossdresser and being a transitioning MtF. TOTAL difference. I am not judging either, I just don't understand when people skew the two together. There are different levels of crossdressing of course... but transitioning to become female is not one of them I believe. Go ahead and bash all you want, but there is a difference, and it's not just "Oh I found out later in life that I wanted to be a woman". There's more to it than that. Does it happen that way sometimes? Course it does...
I'm not saying everyone on here is lying... and I appreciate the truthfull threads that trickle in between the moronic ones.. but to say that most of it not just fantasy is a lie. Yes, we share our experiences and it helps us cope with our own trials and tribulations, and there is a certain amount of escapism already with crossdressing... But to just be void of ramifications is preposterous. Lets say I have an unaccepting wife, which I don't... but lets just say I did... but in reality I didn't tell her until we were married 30 years... to not SEE non-acceptance coming a mile away is shallow. Now, there is tolerance and understanding and therapy and whatever else you want to bring along to help, but the big thing would be.. you're not the same person in their eyes anymore. I just think being a crossdresser, one is inherently and automatically selfish, and to bring this upon others with the attitude of... deal with it, or else is idiotic.
Now I am sure there's a lot of us out there that DON'T get the acceptance we crave and need. And we deal with it as best we can. Just like there are different levels of crossdressing, there are different levels of acceptance and understanding. But it boils down to... US... and who WE are and what WE are willing to sacrifice... not what THEY (SO's), want to put up with. They didn't make the choice... and neither did we.... It's who we are, no matter what way you look at it.

[battybattybats]

Maybe we need to properly define selfishness?

I like the baked cookies example.

Someone who bakes a tray of cookies for themselves and eats them all is not selfish, merely enjoying the fair fruits of their labour. If they are asked to share but do not they may b being self-centred, failing to be altruistic, may not have anyone share with them next time either, but are not being selfish as the cookies are their own.

Someone who eats a greater share than everyone else of cookies that someone else cooked for everyone is however selfish.

Someone who eats all the cookies someone else had baked for themselves that is extremely selfish.

Someone demanding, not asking but demanding, that another share their cookies with them that they did not provide ingrediants or work towards is also being selfish.

So who is being selfish?


The whole thing for me, and maybe I'm being a bit ridgid.... There is an obvious difference between being a crossdresser and being a transitioning MtF. TOTAL difference. I am not judging either, I just don't understand when people skew the two together. There are different levels of crossdressing of course... but transitioning to become female is not one of them I believe. Go ahead and bash all you want, but there is a difference, and it's not just "Oh I found out later in life that I wanted to be a woman". There's more to it than that. Does it happen that way sometimes? Course it does...

How do you know there is this clear divide? I'm yet to see it so I'm interested in how you define and divine such a line.


I'm not saying everyone on here is lying... and I appreciate the truthfull threads that trickle in between the moronic ones..

How are you determining which is which? Are you sure there is no subjective bias in that determination?


Lets say I have an unaccepting wife, which I don't... but lets just say I did... but in reality I didn't tell her until we were married 30 years... to not SEE non-acceptance coming a mile away is shallow.

But consider the realities of repression, the person when they got married may not have been wholly conciously aware of being a CD because of the self-repression or deeply unable to deal directly with that fact. We need to consider the realities of psychology when evaluating peoples decisions.


I just think being a crossdresser, one is inherently and automatically selfish, and to bring this upon others with the attitude of... deal with it, or else is idiotic.

I would say the reverse could also be argued as true. If CDing is a reality than failure to accept it is failure to accept reality. We may prefer that entropy were not so but we can't change the laws of thermodynamics. I'd rather that alcohol-based mouthwash had not just been linked with higher risks of mouth-cancer but nevertheless i must adapt to the reality of the new data. To ignore new data and instead reject that reality is a severe failure of thought.


]But it boils down to... US... and who WE are and what WE are willing to sacrifice... not what THEY (SO's), want to put up with. They didn't make the choice... and neither did we.... It's who we are, no matter what way you look at it.

As you said and neither did we!
And its blaming the victim (or rather a victim, this is a domino effect after all) also to ignore the results on people of social indoctrination regarding taboos and CDing is very much one of the big ones. Those who were unable to bring themselves to tell their wives from the outset (unlike me, I told my ex GF a week or so after the first date!) cannot take on the whole burden as those who participated in the convincing them that this part of who they are is shameful to be hidden and taboo must bear much of the burden also. We cannot rationally ignore the entire fields of psychology and sociology just because it allows us less capacity to blame people.

[jenn25wnycd]

Thank you for those words of wisdom Batty,I appreciate it. Nothing I like better than philosophy, or as I would call it... constructive arguing. :-) Maybe I should have titled the post... "what are you wearing right NOW" to get more responses...

I don't know there is a clear divide... But I know ME.. And I know there is a clear divide in my mind. As for repression, if it is who you are, then you know... I KNOW I am a crossdresser... I KNOW how it effects me, I don't pretend to think that I know how it will affect everyone and how all the excentricities of everyone elses lives make it affect them differently. But I do know how I can manage it's effect on myself and the ones I love. Do I fall into the category of FLAUNTING it or whatever? Probably in some peoples minds I do. As Doc said earlier, most of us are deep in the closet and we take any chance to peek our head out into the sun. As do I. Maybe I got off the subject a bit from before... but it just seems to me that some people go about it the wrong way... I'll stop thinking now... go back to ' who wants to be a flight attendant?'

[Holly]

Jenn, you said, ".... but to flaunt it and bring it upon others without a care in the world is idiotic...." I have to agree with that, especially the "without a care in the world" part. I am married; been married longer than you have been alive. I have been honest with my wife and my children about myself, who I am, and what I do. I don't think that is flaunting, I think it is honesty. I am not so naive as to believe everything that I read, but I am also not so cynical as to discount everything I see as well.

What you consider "BOLD, RIDICULOUS, and SELFISH" for yourself, may in fact be the norm for someone else. Is that so hard to believe? I recently retired from my job, but I wore earrings and nail polish (colored, not clear) to work every day, along with women's jeans and a uniform shirt. My wife and children were also involved with the same employer. They weren't ashamed of me then and they still are not.

I'm not sure exactly what posts you are referring to from which you draw the conclusion that the majority of the members here are uncaring and unsympathetic to their loved ones. They majority of the posts I read are filled with anguish at the thought of losing those same loved ones for revealing this part of themselves to them. The majority of the CDer's I have met and have spoken with are dedicated to their families. Indeed, the fact that so many choose to closet themselves to me speaks of the lengths they are willing to go to protect them, and although I could not be that selfish and deceitful with my family by hiding such a big part of myself from them, I most certainly can understand why so many do. For most, it is a matter of a lack of self-acceptance... they have yet to come to a place where they have accepted themselves for who they are. I suspect you fall into this category yourself based on your statement on your original post about you not liking to hide what you do.

Just as you hope your rant gave pause for others to give this some thought, I hope you will do the same. I'm glad you're here.

[battybattybats]

Thank you for those words of wisdom Batty,I appreciate it. Nothing I like better than philosophy, or as I would call it... constructive arguing. :-) Maybe I should have titled the post... "what are you wearing right NOW" to get more responses...

Thats ok. Not everyone is so easilly suited to this kind of thinking and its not often taught.

Also as for many TG people their mental health can be fragile so for some this kind of thread may not be good for them so its undertsandable that some dwell only on positives to cope.

[jenn25wnycd]

I'm not sure exactly what posts you are referring to from which you draw the conclusion that the majority of the members here are uncaring and unsympathetic to their loved ones. They majority of the posts I read are filled with anguish at the thought of losing those same loved ones for revealing this part of themselves to them. The majority of the CDer's I have met and have spoken with are dedicated to their families. Indeed, the fact that so many choose to closet themselves to me speaks of the lengths they are willing to go to protect them, and although I could not be that selfish and deceitful with my family by hiding such a big part of myself from them, I most certainly can understand why so many do

Those are the real ones..

[Julogden]

I don't know there is a clear divide... But I know ME.. And I know there is a clear divide in my mind. As for repression, if it is who you are, then you know... I KNOW I am a crossdresser... I KNOW how it effects me, I don't pretend to think that I know how it will affect everyone and how all the excentricities of everyone elses lives make it affect them differently. But I do know how I can manage it's effect on myself and the ones I love. Do I fall into the category of FLAUNTING it or whatever? Probably in some peoples minds I do. As Doc said earlier, most of us are deep in the closet and we take any chance to peek our head out into the sun. As do I. Maybe I got off the subject a bit from before... but it just seems to me that some people go about it the wrong way... I'll stop thinking now... go back to ' who wants to be a flight attendant?'

Hi Jenn,

No offense intended dear, but I think the problem you're having is that you're projecting your reality onto everyone else. No one else has exactly your values or personal situation, so why should you get upset when others live their lives in accordance with their own values and situations?

And as Batty mentioned, exposure to the T-community in general brings about increased tolerance, so more power to those with the nerve to go out in public dressed.

I do, however, heartily agree that those of us who are in a committed relationship and/or have kids need to look at the big picture. Our actions can and do have repercussions that affect our loved ones, so balance is required. The pink fog is often a terrible thing to see in action.

Carol

[jenn25wnycd]

No offense intended dear, but I think the problem you're having is that you're projecting your reality onto everyone else. No one else has exactly your values or personal situation, so why should you get upset when others live their lives in accordance with their own values and situations?



I apologize if I came off as projecting. It is not what I intended. I was only clearly stating that I know how it affects myself, and understand how it can effect others differently depending on their views and/or situations in life. Do I LOVE being a crossdresser? YES. Do I LOVE how it has ramifications on my loved ones either positive or negative? NO. So I find myself walking that fine line in between for everyone's sake. Really now, SHOULD we all do that? Probably not. But I am because thats who I am.

Pink Fog...... selfishness defined

[MissConstrued]

I apologize if I came off as projecting. It is not what I intended. I was only clearly stating that I know how it affects myself, and understand how it can effect others differently depending on their views and/or situations in life.


I don't think it was projecting, unless you were specifically directing it at those who don't fit the description. But this world being what it is, I'm quite certain there are many who do fit the description. As the adage goes -- if the shoe fits, wear it. I don't know why some have to get upset that the shoe doesn't fit, and try to squeeze into it whilst being offended.

Others get upset when the shoe does fit. How dare you offer me a shoe that fits! It's an ugly shoe!

Everyone likes to think of themselves as completely unique in the human experience, but the reality is that we all have more in common than we wish to admit.

Just remember -- if you are one in a million, there are 6,000 people on this planet exactly like you. :D

[beenherelongtime]

here i go again(thinking)it hurts). i particularly like Hollys' post. jenn, i also like yours. how can i like both. because we are all individuales and have our own thoughts. you both make me think of where i was, and how i feel now, i am probably one of the oldest people on this forum. 73 this year. i have probably done everything mentioned in most of our posts. true, we are redundant at times, but the way the forum is set up(no disrespect intended) we cannot know what was written last year or even last week unless we go back and read every post ever created. so we get posts that others have commented on, but sometimes there is a fresh outlook or at least a voice.

i myself think there are many more cders' that stay in the closet out of concern for their families. not because of rejected from their families but because the family will be subject to insults from others. i will write more when i get all my thoughts together.

[Kelsy]

Now there's a coincidence. I've just come across an article in a women's magazine of about 1890 concerning women wearing bloomers. It said:

"Are there that many of us that are so BOLD and SELFISH? When you talk about having enough courage to go 'OUT' or the RIDICULOUS notion of riding a bicycle wearing trousers and not having the slightest feelings on how others would perceive you or the ramifications it would have on friends and family.
Do we really have to flaunt it out in the open like so many of us do? Do I LOVE wearing bloomers? When I'm doing it yes! Does it cause friction between relationships we have with husbands or family, or even children? YES. Do I like having a part of me that I have to HIDE? NO! Nobody would ever WANT to do that, but we must stay in touch with reality. Is society in general EVER going to accept a woman in trousers and short hair? NO. It's just not going to happen. You all know it as well as I do.

So why then can we not all SEE this, and not push the boundaries and flaunt it out there as if it were a disease or a condition."

;) Curious, eh?

Now that is very interesting Katie, Perhaps if we were to push for acceptance or ,for that matter, our right to express ourselves, it is perceived as selfish and bold only because society hasn't assimilated it yet.

Kelsy

[JoAnne Wheeler]

We are all different and have different needs and different hurts - I do not mind hearing everything that others write about - it helps me - I realize that how many panties we have and what color nail polish we are wearing may be trivial to some girls, but my Spouse has fussed at me because of "how many panties I have" - so when that topic was discussed, it actually comforts some of us girls -

Some of our posts involve deeper subjects and that is good - but I do not think that we ought to trivialize other lighter topics - what is lighter to one may be deeper to another

There are a LOT of us out here - I think that we need to support one another and respect one another and be nice to one another

JoAnne Wheeler

[Karren H]

Well I don't relly know what to explain. And yeah I'm married and have a family and the wife hates my hobby.. But for me its family first... And any free time left over is Karren's... But then again I'd rather go play ice hockey any day over dressing up... If I can juggle my schedule, I have done family things, gone and played hockey and gone out enfemme in the same day.. So how does my situation that allowes me to go out and my willingness to discuss what I love to do make me a selfish person? I'm not pushing any thing I do on anyone else.. And like I said, I do not sacrafice family time to crossdress.. Maybe I'm just thick or something.....

Ohhhh And nothings clear cut and no one is the same, in my humble opinion...

[jamie55]

Lets say I have an unaccepting wife, which I don't... but lets just say I did... but in reality I didn't tell her until we were married 30 years... to not SEE non-acceptance coming a mile away is shallow. Now, there is tolerance and understanding and therapy and whatever else you want to bring along to help, but the big thing would be.. you're not the same person in their eyes anymore. I just think being a crossdresser, one is inherently and automatically selfish, and to bring this upon others with the attitude of... deal with it, or else is idiotic.
Now I am sure there's a lot of us out there that DON'T get the acceptance we crave and need. And we deal with it as best we can. Just like there are different levels of crossdressing, there are different levels of acceptance and understanding. But it boils down to... US... and who WE are and what WE are willing to sacrifice... not what THEY (SO's), want to put up with. They didn't make the choice... and neither did we.... It's who we are, no matter what way you look at it.[/QUOTE]

Jenn: Hi and welcome. What I quoted above is me with a very slight adjustment of the numbers. I do disagree with your assumption that cd's are inherently and automatically selfish. Look at it from my pov. After nearly 34 yrs of marriage my SO has also changed and is not the same person I fell in love with, but I adapted to those changes. By some standards I probably flaunt IT and I'm definately an in your face kinda guy. It would be so easy for me to just pack my stuff and go away so I could be me all the time but I hang around and take care of my family albeit sometimes in very stressful situations. Maybe that in itself makes me selfish but I give up a lot of me in order to take care of my loved ones, and I truely believe most of here do also. Now if I could just cook I'd make some cookies to share but alas I can't so maybe I'll run to the c-store and get some. Back later.

[Kim_Bitzflick]

Now there's a coincidence. I've just come across an article in a women's magazine of about 1890 concerning women wearing bloomers. It said:

"Are there that many of us that are so BOLD and SELFISH? When you talk about having enough courage to go 'OUT' or the RIDICULOUS notion of riding a bicycle wearing trousers and not having the slightest feelings on how others would perceive you or the ramifications it would have on friends and family.
Do we really have to flaunt it out in the open like so many of us do? Do I LOVE wearing bloomers? When I'm doing it yes! Does it cause friction between relationships we have with husbands or family, or even children? YES. Do I like having a part of me that I have to HIDE? NO! Nobody would ever WANT to do that, but we must stay in touch with reality. Is society in general EVER going to accept a woman in trousers and short hair? NO. It's just not going to happen. You all know it as well as I do.

So why then can we not all SEE this, and not push the boundaries and flaunt it out there as if it were a disease or a condition."

;) Curious, eh?

Katie,

This is a VERY curious post. I think it is quite representative of our situation and many situations throughout time. If people didn't push boundaries we would still have

Women wearing LONG dresses
Segregation of black & white
Women not voting (in the USA)
Women not having the same profession as men
Men expected to be the "bread winner".
etc.

[MarcieM]

do we just go on this forum and LIE through our teeth about how bold and daring we are
a great number of people here do exactly that.

[TxKimberly]

Damn - don't even know where to start.

First thing that catches my attention is your repeated use of the phrase "I'm not judging anyone" when you clearly are. You very clearly are judging and judgmental about those of us that do go out in the world - that's the entire point of your thread after all. That's OK and I have no problem with that, but let's just go ahead and admit it.

There CAN be consequences for taking the chances I do. I try and minimize those risks by mostly going out hundreds and even thousands of miles from home, where there is no chance of anyone I know seeing me. Others make their own choices and decisions, and take the risks they are comfortable with.

Most things we do in life must be put on a scale and weighed. On one side of the scale you place the up sides of what you get from something, and on the other you place the down sides. You then see which way the scales go and decide if it is or is not worth it to you. For me, on one side of the scale I place the joy and wonder I feel when I enter the world as "Kim", and on the other side I place the possible consequences. In my case, I have decided that the possible consequences do not out weigh my joy and happiness. If my wife did not know about me, or hated what I am, the scale would probably weigh a good deal more on the "possible consequences" side and things might be different. As it is, my wife does know about me, my Son does know about me, neither are ashamed of me, and so the possible consequences are not too daunting.

As every one has already said, we all make our own choices. You have made yours, I have made mine - that is the way it should be. What surprises me a bit is the very clear anger you have for everyone that didn't choose the same path you did.

As for the "I want to be a flight attendant" I'd have to agree that this is silly, but then it was clearly never intended to be taken seriously. I would also like to be Mary Poppins, and Cinderella, and Tyra Banks, and Brook Shields, and . . . :)

[suchacutie]

This thread deserves to be broken into many pieces in order to sort out all the issues. Let me try to address some of them.

...There are clearly some people who have be nothing short of tormented with gender identity all their lives. Eventually, any torment of that magnitude has to be resolved, and if it can't be resolved slowly and carefully, it comes out as an explosion. Luckily, I think I was just too ignorant to be tormented with the gender issue until I was mature enough to test the waters, and then I had a loving wife who was interested in helping...truly the best of all worlds. But, I can see that if my life had not been so busy, and if I had not had supportive people always available in my life, I could have easily come to the point where I HAD to explore the other gender, the world be damned! I don't think that's selfish, it's just that the mind eventually breaks and there's not much that can be done. Family and friends might suffer, but the alternatives could be much worse. And for those of us who have supporting spouses or other family members, even most of them have limits. My wife wants her man. There is nothing that I would ever do to take that man from her. I'd be insane to do that, no? I read many parts of this forum where our sisters have expressed the same ideal. And there are some who can't stand their situation...I think we need to give them support.

...Lie on this forum...omg...really???? nuf said.

...CD vs. TS. Where to begin? Each of us has long and short-term goals for our investigation of the other gender, from men wanting to just wear women's clothing, through those who really want to look and feel like women, through gender-blenders, through those of us who wish to hold on to both genders (me), to those who wish to transition to 24/7 women, to those who have transitioned, to those who have changed their bodies to one extent or another. (did I cover the gamut?). I may be in the minority here. I want to be a women at my whim, but when I transition to my feminine self, I want to transistion as far as I can...complete...looks, actions, voice, thought..everything. Does that make me transsexual for the time that Tina fills my every thought? My point is that one can distinguish a crossdresser from a transsexual under certain circumstances, but when Tina has entered the world full bore, I don't have a clue who she is. Every time she shows up, she goes farther over the edge, leaving that masculinity farther and farther behind, and one reason she can do that is that she has the luxury of going back to that masculinity whenever she wants. She is free to push ever farther into being as complete a feminine being as she can. Therein, CD and TS, at least in my mind, blur very badly.

I've blithered on enough! Best wishes to everyone.

tina

[Joanne f]

With the amount of members that there are on here you have to take into account that there is going to be some wishful thinking and some exaggerations yet there is also going to be some real stories to tell , most can tell the difference, but i do realise that you have to be careful not to lead someone into a false sense of security.

[Karen564]

Hey,

I know I'm new here and all.. but I have been reading this forum for around 4 months or so and I just really need to vent about what I am perceiving. There are a LOT of us out there yes, but really are there that many of us that are so BOLD and SELFISH? When you talk about having enough guts to go 'OUT' or the REDICULOUS notion of going to work dressed (understand that there is a difference between going to work DRESSED with makeup or bra that would be CLEARLY visible, and just wearing panties and hose, which I have done)...and not having the slightest feelings on how others would perceive you or the ramifications it would have on friends and family. I'm NOT going all high and mighty on everyone so please don't take it that way.
The whole thing of expressing ourselves and ' this is who I am' thing.. I GET IT! But do we really have to flaunt it out in the open like so many of us do? Or in reality, do we just go on this forum and LIE through our teeth about how bold and daring we are, and stay in the closet? Do I LOVE being a crossdresser? When I'm doing it yes!!! Does it cause friction between relationships we have with SO's or family, or even children? YES. Do I like having a part of me that I have to HIDE? NO! Nobody would ever WANT to do that, but lets get a reality check here.... Is society in general EVER going to accept a man in a skirt and heels? NO. It's just not going to happen. You all know it as well as I do.
There have been a few posts before, and I am paraphrasing, about what we give up.. what will be acceptable... how we all WISH to find a SO that will be accepting... fairy tales... all BS. The reality of the situation is... we accept it as who we are... and you wonder why the whole association with gay/lesbian behavior has with crossdressing... It's because THEY (gays or lesbians) have to accept it themselves before it can be brought out in the open and they can go into damage control mode with friends/family/children. We WANT acceptance, but it's not acceptance we get, it's tolerance. So why then can we not all SEE this, and not push the boundaries and flaunt it out there like it's a disease or a condition, oh please feel for me.. pity me..
You are who you are, if I told you my STORY, what is it that I am looking for? Pity? Acceptance? The knowledge that I'm not alone? I know that already, I'm not naive anymore like when we were kids and felt the guilt associated with crossdressing. But I'm also not naive enough to believe HALF of what is on here is total BS and wishful thinking. Really, do we ALL want to just leave our loved ones behind and all be flight attendants? REDICULOUS! Is it good fantasy? Yes. Reality? NO! Do we all love being a MAN as much as every other man out there? I bet most of us do, not because we HAVE to, but because we are used to it.
I would be dumb to not admit I LOVE crossdressing. But I also know that it's not something that should rule someones life. Anything in excess is bad for you, whether it is shopping for shoes, or alcohol, or not paying attention to yourself, or paying too much attention to yourself. We all have lives that we live, we all can do whatever we want, whenever we want, we have that gift of freedom. But it just seems to me that no matter where you look these days, it's the ALL or nothing attitude.......my two cents.


Bring it..........

I can understand where your coming from, it's definitely a never ending uphill battle in the real world and is no way as easy as some claim it to be, if it was, they must live on another planet. Or their just self-centered selfish individuals that don't really care about anything but themselves.

btw, I like your avatar.

Karen

[Carly D.]

That's a nice opinion and I happen to agree with the most of it.. we all can't be that "out" there.. I have worn panties and pantyhose or tights to work under my work clothes who hasn't done that for the cheap thrill that it is.. and dream of acceptance, I'll say this much, I'm not sure if I care for the world to flip on it's ear and say we accept cross dressers.. gay people have it made now that it is accepted by the mainstream to be gay.. but it took a long time to be this way and a lot of people to admit they are gay.. there are a lot of celebrities that are gay.. artists, performers (et.al.) and it took a lot of people to admit they are gay.. not just one or one really famous person to get things rolling... that's what it would take for the cross dress community to be accepted.. for me, I'm private with my cross dressing and would likely stay that way even if I were to be found out about by anyone.. though I wouldn't mind wearing some heels in public...

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

Hi Jenn, welcome to the forum. Glad you decided to join after browsing for a few months. :)

You sure hit the ground running!

Battybattybats made some excellent points, as usual. I think you found her input very insightful. I always do.

I wanted to address this one:


Maybe I should have titled the post... "what are you wearing right NOW" to get more responses...

It really shouldn't bother you that there are a lot of threads about "what are you wearing right NOW" or who wants to be a flight attendant or dress up to work or anything else. The world is made up of all kinds of people - crossdressers are quite a diverse bunch all on their own, wouldn't you say?

Some people prefer lighthearted conversation and others prefer to go a lot deeper. Why should some playful conversations/threads irritate you? :)

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I hope you don't find yourself so annoyed with this kind of thing in the future. As you can see, there are plenty of deep conversations going on at any given time.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but try to relax a little. :) Being a cd and having to keep it hidden from the world is stressful enough without getting stressed about what some people in the cd community choose to chat about.

If you really want to hear some stupid conversations sometime, come to my work place and just listen for a while. You'd be surprised at the absolutely stupid conversations that break out between bored coworkers. lol I honestly have to put on my headphones and tune it out sometimes. Then again, sometimes I'm part of those really stupid office conversations. :heehee:

I think I get you - we all need to vent about whatever and this is a great place to do so.

Thanks for your "ramble". It made for some very interesting conversation and an enjoyable read. :)

[Lori Robins]

Hey girls, or maybe I shouldn't say girls because someone in another thread says girls are just young kids! :brolleyes: I am here because I was born a male but have the strange quirk of wanting to sometimes dress up and be as feminine as I can and sometimes I do venture out. I have a partner who is mainly supportive of my activities but draws the line at coming out with me :sad: except to CD functions :D I am only new here as well, but after reading a lot of posts here, I have started to think that we are just like any other demograhic in society. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT, and we all have different views and ideas on how of life should pan out. How wonderful is that !!!! What sort of boring world would it be if we were all the same!
If people feel they have to lie and exaggerate then really the only people they are hurting are themselves in the long run. Life is like that and it takes all kinds to make up society.
As a group I find that some of us seem to be very judgemental of others in our group, which is the thing we seem to have a problem with when others (non CDs TSs) are non accepting of us. Personaly I really don't give a toss what people want to do or say, so long as they don't inflict harm on others. I realise that everyone is entitled to thier own opinion and I agree with a lot of the comments in this thread (and others) and healthy discussion is a good thing. But some of the comments I read in some of the threads, especially some that are meant to be a bit of lighthearted fun, are extremelly caustic and totally uneccessary.
A few sayings pass thru my mind as I read this thread, the grass is always greener, each to there own, if it feels good do it, too much of a good thing is never enough, if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all.
Is there a model CD behaviour manual out ther somewhere that we should be following? I certainly hope not!!!
I say lets just all be happy with who we are (if not get some professional help) and accept others for who they are and ignore the ones who irritate us. Life is too short to be to be wasted by being :Angry3: all the time. Especially at things trivial or things that we can't change!
Wow I was only going to write a couple of lighthearted lines, but I got carried away!!! I will get off the soapbox now and give someone else a turn!

[Emily01]

I get acceptance as a Goth, a largely androgynous one at that. Last night i went shopping with a friend while I was wearing dark red lipstick with quite male goth clothes during peak time at the supermarket. No one made any negative comments.

not to get caught up in all of this....but that likely wasn't entirely acceptance you enjoyed, more than likely it was tolerance - a whole 'nother kettle of fish. (what, by the way, IS a "kettle of fish?" lol)

i like reading this thread though and i think it has a lot of merit. i wouldn't say it reflects my own views but i can identify with the underlying themes of self-delusion, self-absorption, and plain and simple selfishness. but then i'm a happily flawed person anyway.

what i don't get is what the entire exercise is all about - short of a rant - which is cool too if that floats your boat. maybe there should be a separate thread for RANTS. i have some but they're mostly about how other drivers should drive more like me.....and, of course, the price of quality breast forms....oh well, i digress. thanks for the posts!

[curse within]

I've quoted this bit, to make sure the MTF's on this forum don't miss it and to see how many slam you for saying it, just like they slammed me for saying it... I'm betting they don't... I'd say I agree with you, but hey, I'm not allowed... :sad:

LOL ......I think you just did:lol:...... Pretty pic BTW:D:D

Jenn, I understand exactly where you are comming from..I also notice a safety net that the forum provides for new Family members ...If people came here and read some of these threads without understanding they would probably figured thier worst dreams have came true..

But in fairness ( as you said you are new) this section MTF is opened for discussion of all areas of MTF crossdressing..I have learned to ignore certain threads just as some do mine...This community has to be fair that's what makes it such a success..The key is the support and what is being supported some folks need the encouragement to take bold steps because it's the direction they desire to go while others can only dream of taking such steps due to lifestyle or grief it may cause on thier lifestyle..

I hope that helps you understand it took me awhile as one put it to me "to each thier own"..

[JulieK1980]

I find the claims of selfishness to be rather presumptious. I'm happily married, and I have children. I'm also bisexual and me and my wife have a completely open relationship. (with proper safety precautions of course) I'm not sure why others would think I'm selfish, as my wife accepts me fully as both sides of myself, and I her. Do people understand our relationship? Probably not. But why would I care? While I'm sure there are a number of selfish MTF crossdressers, I'm also 100% certain there are selfish gg's. The point I'm trying to make is that ALL generalizations FAIL. Just because people share a similar interest, does NOT mean they are all the same in any way shape or form.

Just my two cents.:)

[battybattybats]

As for the "I want to be a flight attendant" I'd have to agree that this is silly, but then it was clearly never intended to be taken seriously. I would also like to be Mary Poppins, and Cinderella, and Tyra Banks, and Brook Shields, and . . . :)

Hold your horses there girl!
A CD flight attendant? Why on earth should we think that is silly?
Once people said that about black policemen, or about policewomen. Running business, entering politics, going into space....

No! We are every bit as capable of being anything anyone else is! And we are capable of doing those jobs whether in male or female attire!

It might be hard to achieve the point where we are equal citizens to the point where we can openly be a crossdressed flight attendant or commercial pilot or fighter pilot or astronaut but that does not make it either silly or unachievable!

I mean really, everyone step back a moment and look at this. We are accepting demurely that we cannot be equals.

As for it being selfish to be out when there may be consequences to others, sure there is risk in being out in many places, to careers and also to families who depend on those jobs. Thats one reason why every single one of us should be voting in favour of employment protection.

But don't you think the women who fought for the vote had families? Who fought for the right to wear trousers and bathers had Children? Consider the ones who marched for equal education for their daughters! Who risked arrest and beating by police in doing so! Was that really selfish?

The black men and women who risked lynching for speaking out also had families too. Were they selfish?

Could it not have been selfish to not have acted, to not have risked their lives and the consequences on their families because not doing so would involve the continued suffering of their familes and of all other oppressed families? When otherswere fighting for schooling for all daughters was the woman who stayed home selfless for not risking the consequences on her own single daughter or selfish for not taking that risk for the sake of all daughters?

Seriously when there are CD mayors, TS members of parliament in several countires etc then the only reson why there can't be an out CD flight attendant is if we dont do the work to overcome the prejudice that might prevent one. A CD should be able to work, dressed, as a flight attendent and no person lives in a truly free nation where that is not possible. Seriously!


not to get caught up in all of this....but that likely wasn't entirely acceptance you enjoyed, more than likely it was tolerance - a whole 'nother kettle of fish. (what, by the way, IS a "kettle of fish?" lol)

Well sure many might have been merely tolerating, but the compliments I got were accepting. And I get compliments as a goth fairly often. So there is most certainly a lot of acceptance.

[Nicki B]

Do I like having a part of me that I have to HIDE? NO! Nobody would ever WANT to do that, but lets get a reality check here.... Is society in general EVER going to accept a man in a skirt and heels? NO. It's just not going to happen. You all know it as well as I do.

It's my experience that society often is accepting - so please explain, what is yours, that says it never can be? :idontknow:

[Jennifer_Cross]

I apologize if I came off as projecting. It is not what I intended. I was only clearly stating that I know how it affects myself, and understand how it can effect others differently depending on their views and/or situations in life. Do I LOVE being a crossdresser? YES. Do I LOVE how it has ramifications on my loved ones either positive or negative? NO. So I find myself walking that fine line in between for everyone's sake. Really now, SHOULD we all do that? Probably not. But I am because thats who I am.

Pink Fog...... selfishness defined

May I add a thought to this?

Let's see now....

Women (GG) Were expected (and do) wear dresses, skirts, silkies Etc. Thats what society expects...

These days they wear jeans, trouzers (pants) and we dont bat an eye lid!
They even wear suits, how many men love the look of a slim woman in a "Power Suit"? Is that the 'dominant effect'? (my x-wife used to steal my Prison Officer shirts and lounge about the house) But come-on we love to see it.

Now... This is very much accepted in life. They have the luxury of dressing femmine or masculine (why do they choose the powere suit?) A hint of male / female dominance???

So... Lets just for one moment say that this rule would next year also apply to ANY male! Let's say next year a change would happen and females would love to see males dressed in skirts, make up (oh.. in the UK many of the teenagers already are accepted for make-up) and high heels.... AND it becomes an accepted 'norm'.... How many of us would that make happy???

Ok... That is NOT going to happen but I do sometimes think it is a bit of an hypocrisy of life!

That said, yes, on the internet you have to weed out the truth in any posts but remember some are truth.

My partner (GG) knew I had an interest and activley encouraged it to a point where her goal is to get me out and passable (not looking forward to that just yet) LOL! So, I am a lucky one, I get to change heads when ever I want (or get told to)..... Now is this a lie/fantacy??? ...NO!!!

When this new situation arose in my life (only as recent as four months ago) I thought I would research and found (amongst others) this site. I said to my SO just how sorry I felt for some on here that are NOT accepted by their SO's... It really did hurt!

I for one am a much better Male for finding my Fem side and love it!

I hope you find yourself.... Sorry for the rant!

Jen

[jenn25wnycd]

Thank you all for your wonderful comments and insight. i knew that we all weren't here to troll the 'what are you wearing, and what if' posts. If one thing happened reading all your well thought out posts to me, is that I did open my eyes to see how really different we all are in more ways than one, but how similar we are in the struggle to find ourselves. Thank you again all for not bashing and actually reading and understanding!

[Sara Jessica]

Damn - don't even know where to start.

There CAN be consequences for taking the chances I do. I try and minimize those risks by mostly going out hundreds and even thousands of miles from home, where there is no chance of anyone I know seeing me. Others make their own choices and decisions, and take the risks they are comfortable with.


As I read through this thread, Kimberly's first line was running through my mind over and over.

Then she makes the other comment I quoted above and as for my situation, I couldn't really state it any better.

I live in the megalopolis that is Southern California, an area with cities adjacent to cites most of which have populations in measured in the 100's of thousands and even into millions. My radius when it comes to going out is 30-40+ miles (often 100 miles) from home. This helps me to minimize risks of being detected. But even if someone were to see me, would they recognize me? Not all that likely. But if they did recognize me, would the result be damaging to any aspect of my life? Possible but not necessarily a given.

The thread is also painted with a fairly broad brush with cd'ers on one side and those who are ts on the other. Many of us are somewhere in between and one very distinct places to be is on the middle path (as one who identifies as being ts but unable to transition). Speaking for myself, I do my best to find balance in my life. I'm trying not to completely going over the edge towards transition, yet I don't wish to go completely crazy in such avoidance. There is nothing bold, selfish or ridiculous about being who we are and trying to get more out of the feminine experience than sitting at home in a skirt. For many of us, this is no game or hobby, it's our very being.

[Satrana]

Perhaps if we were to push for acceptance or ,for that matter, our right to express ourselves, it is perceived as selfish and bold only because society hasn't assimilated it yet.

Best point yet made. We only seem selfish because we are asking for something (acceptance) which others can only give us by exerting thought and effort. Because we are tasking them then they see our behavior as selfish. If males expressing femininity was taken for granted then nobody would take the slightest notice of our behavior so we would no longer be deemed selfish.

The accusation of selfishness is routinely used by those who disapprove of another's behavior, especially if the person is not behaving in a socially approved manner. It often says more about the accuser than anything else.

[MissConstrued]

Honestly, I don't believe acceptance is the proper thing to ask for, or demand, from anyone.

Acceptance is what's in the heart and mind of the one who's doing the accepting. It's that person's opinion of you. If we were to demand acceptance, that would be demanding that others change their opinion of us. Fact is, they have the right to their own opinions, whether anyone agrees with them or not.

Tolerance is the proper goal. That simply means that, regardless of a person's opinion toward you, they will not cause you any trouble or harm because of it.

It's reasonable that others tolerate you. It's not reasonable to demand they like you.

[JulieK1980]

Honestly, I don't believe acceptance is the proper thing to ask for, or demand, from anyone.

Acceptance is what's in the heart and mind of the one who's doing the accepting. It's that person's opinion of you. If we were to demand acceptance, that would be demanding that others change their opinion of us. Fact is, they have the right to their own opinions, whether anyone agrees with them or not.

Tolerance is the proper goal. That simply means that, regardless of a person's opinion toward you, they will not cause you any trouble or harm because of it.

It's reasonable that others tolerate you. It's not reasonable to demand they like you.

Well said!

[battybattybats]

Acceptance is what's in the heart and mind of the one who's doing the accepting. It's that person's opinion of you. If we were to demand acceptance, that would be demanding that others change their opinion of us. Fact is, they have the right to their own opinions, whether anyone agrees with them or not.

Tolerance is the proper goal. That simply means that, regardless of a person's opinion toward you, they will not cause you any trouble or harm because of it.


Ah but we could look at the meanings of those words differently. Tolerance = allows you to do something by grace, permits. Acceptance = accepts that you have the right to do something they don't like.

So from that perspective tolerance is bad as it assumes tolerance is a choice while acceptance is good because in a society of equal freedom we have a mutual obligation to accept others making choices for themselves about themselves that we would not make for ourselves about ourselves.

Thus we are splitting hairs on the poetic semantic subtexts of the words. Because by my Oxford Concise in the meaning of the word Accept is: "3. tolerate".

So while tolerate can mean "Endure" "suffer" "permit" and "allow" and accept can mean "regard with favour" accept can also mean "tolerate" making a nice little inescapable logic-loop.

[MissConstrued]

Thus we are splitting hairs on the poetic semantic subtexts of the words. Because by my Oxford Concise in the meaning of the word


What does your Oxford Concise have to say about "insufferable" and "boob?"

[TeriAnn]

When I told my wife we had been married for 6 years, did I worry that it might hurt her or scare her of course I did. Thing is I realized I was living a lie by not telling her. Should I have told her before we married Yes I should have but I was scared that I would kill a great relationship and I had this preconsived notion that it would go away after I got married.
After I told her it took her a couple days to mull it over then she came to me and told me she was cool with my passion. Since then she has purchased many items for me without me asking. She has told me many times that what I look like on the outside and no matter how I am dressed she loves me for who I am, not what or whom I may look like. Does this apply to everyone ? Most likely not but I am sure that the stories and outings on this forum have the support of our S/O or wives maybe not all but quite a few most likley do:2c:

[Emily01]

What does your Oxford Concise have to say about "insufferable" and "boob?"

LOL.....and the winner IS.........tah-dah!!

with extra points for brevity and clarity of thought!

[sometimes_miss]

I'm not going to address everything listed in the original post. The real reason that I posted my story is because it took decades for me to figure out why I am who I am. Maybe it will help someone else look at their past, and learn why they feel the way they do. And while I was under the incorrect assumption that once learning why I acted and felt the way I did, the feelings would go away, at least now I can understand, accept, and deal with it all. I'm not saying the reason's for my crossdressing are what causes everyone to do it; but it is, for one person (me), the explanation.

[PETTIKAT]

I am a female-at-birth, and my boyfriend is a CD.
I love everything about him. He told me about his crossdressing when I first met him - it was an added attraction for me! I have always been turned on by slightly feminine men. I would have felt very hurt and angry if my boyfriend had waited for several monthes before telling me.

I think it is important to be true to yourself, whatever your 'kink'. It is much better to tell your SO early on than live a life of deceipt.

CDing is complicated because, to some, it is a sexual fetish. And it is not appropriate to discuss sexual fetishes with children.

I think the only way for CDing to become socially acceptable is to follow the same pattern as the gay community. About 20 years age, homosexuals were shunned by society.

But gradually, by developing such shows as 'Queer Eye' (with Carson Cressley - a great gay role model) and presenting intelligent, likeable roles for gay characters in soapies, society is now quite comfortable with homosexuality.

So, be true to yourself - just be intelligent about it! And gradually I believe society will become more accepting.

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

As people we tend to pass judgement on others and the bible say's we should not pass judgement on others, lest we be judged.

[Nicki B]

It's reasonable that others tolerate you. It's not reasonable to demand they like you.

I don't see acceptance is anything other than tolerance? :strugglin

It certainly doesn't have to include liking you, just putting up with you banging on about something they don't think is a big deal, and wish you'd get over...

[Jonianne]

Ah but we could look at the meanings of those words differently. Tolerance = allows you to do something by grace, permits. Acceptance = accepts that you have the right to do something they don't like........

That is exactly why in American history, when the first amendment was being hammered out, they specifically chose the word "right" (freedom) over just calling it tolerance. Speech and religious freedom vs tolerance.

[jenn25wnycd]

Pettikat,

I don't mean to finger you out or anything.... but really... what do sitcoms have to do with society? Really? Do we all live like Seinfeld and Friends? Society's acceptance of openly gay celebs has nothing to do with what 'REAL' people have to endure every day. So, what your saying is we just have to wait till a good sitcom comes up that involves crossdressing and it'll be socially acceptable? Lets just say there was one starting now... would the crossdresser be the butt of every single joke? Most likely... and there have been a few before.. Tom Hanks ring a bell?
We're all different, with different levels of crossdressing....either a sexual fetish, or a need to express femininity.... or maybe even a sign to transition. I am glad there are so many accepting women out there for their significant others to have such a personal thing shared and tolerated. But for the most part we're not... bisexual... maybe a LOT of us are and it's a way to deny it... and most women are not attracted to effeminate men.... FACT. And maybe I'm one generation too far to succumb to the whole ..' whats on TV is what's REAL'..... Anyone else think this way? I am just glad and heartened by the fact that I was NOT bashed and ridiculed for posting what I though was a thought out rant, but brought into a greater discussion with meaning. I'll skip the 'fantasy island' post and sort through for meaningfull ones...

Smile!

[deja true]

Pettikat,

what do sitcoms have to do with society? Really? Do we all live like Seinfeld and Friends? Society's acceptance of openly gay celebs has nothing to do with what 'REAL' people have to endure every day. So, what your saying is we just have to wait till a good sitcom comes up that involves crossdressing and it'll be socially acceptable?

Actually, she's right!

Does the sitcom "All in the Family" ring a bell?

The arts (and that loosely includes television sit-coms) do often lead in the public-at-large's ability to get over long held prejudices. They often show marginalized characters and situations as sympathetic, not just as the butt of jokes or derision.

Ellen de Generes' popularity and acceptance (not just tolerance...we're talking Emmy awards here!) is another good example.

Where the popular arts go, the public (sheep that they are...) often follow.

[Nicki B]

I don't mean to finger you out or anything.... but really... what do sitcoms have to do with society? Really? Do we all live like Seinfeld and Friends? Society's acceptance of openly gay celebs has nothing to do with what 'REAL' people have to endure every day.

For some years now, one of the major UK soaps has had a character who is TS - she's just treated as ordinary, as everyone else - and the subliminal message has been for years, it's not a big deal, in fact it's not a deal at all?

Seeing others not having a problem has to be useful in setting the norms of a culture - it's not the only thing, obviously, it's just one of many factors that help. The key thing is visibility - and the more of 'us' are visible, celebs (Eddie Izzard, David Walliams), or not, the better?

[Nicki B]

Bloody buses.. :rolleyes:


You wait ages, then two come along together.