Who's fooling who?

[Nigella]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1582859&postcount=1

This post has prompted this thread.

Most of us profess to be nothing more than men who like to wear women's clothing. We like our masculine side.

Then a thread comes up like the one above. Most of the responses are in the affirmative.

So what is it? Are you a Bloke in a Frock, nothing more nothing less or are you really a closet TS, with no disrespect to those who know they are TS.

IMHO a crossdresser is someone who wants to emulate a woman, in lots of ways but not be a woman.

[Kathi Lake]

Who needs Ricardo Montalban?

Your last line nailed it for me - I enjoy emulating (some call it "femulating") a woman. I dress up as fully as I can, and try to honor them in my transformation. I do not want to be a woman full time, because then I would have to do all this the clothes, the makeup, etc. As a guy, I get to do this. It's a treat to dress up. If I were a woman, I don't think I'd get such a charge out of it as it would be normal and expected.

Kathi

[JoAnne Wheeler]

I agree with you - we CDers are MEN who deeply enjoy expressing our FEMININTY by wearing the clothes of and transforming ourselves into women for a period of time.* Most of us do not want SRS.* We also enjoy our male side and have no desire to give our male side up.Crossdressing to me is satisfying, relaxing and rewarding.* I enjoy the CHALLENGE of the TRANSFORMATION - the greater the challenge, the greater the reward if the TRANSFORMATION turns out wellJoAnne Wheeler

[trisha59]

I'm a guy that likes to put on a dress occasionally. But I also have wondered what it would be like to be a woman, in the same vane as wondering what it would be like to be a bird and fly or dog and eat sleep and play all day. If that makes any sense

[Nigella]

I'm a guy that likes to put on a dress occasionally. But I also have wondered what it would be like to be a woman, in the same vane as wondering what it would be like to be a bird and fly or dog and eat sleep and play all day. If that makes any sense

Makes lots of sense and so far the responses, even these limited ones are as expected.

Whilst I to have "wondered", I have never had the pretention of anything more than I am, whereas some "appear" to want to be more than they are, or profess to be.

Hope that makes sense

[Maria2222]

I think it would be interesting to get a chance to be the real thing for a short while.

[Naleen]

Im a guy that whould like to become a Female but that right now is not a goal that I can pursue. So right now I am trying to emulate a female to my best of knowledge in my own home or closet. Which keeps my femme side at bay for now.

[battybattybats]

At some point people here really will have to start acknowledging the reality of the rest of the transgender spectrum.

There aren't just pre-op and post-op TS but non-op TS as well. There are 24/7 full-time CDs and DQs and DKs too.

There are androgynes and genderqueers and more besides!

There is no neat simple TS catagory and CD catagory. There are blurry edges and spaces in between where an awful lof of us here fit!

The fear of being TS and having to head down some inevitable path of surgery, and for that matter the fear that a flamboyant/sexual CD is somehow less legitimate and a TS both lead to people clinging to one catagory or another in a desperate way.

Fact is you can be both male and female seperately inside, neither male nor female inside a single merged male/female inside and many varients. There will be people her that are 60%/40% male/female for example.

These are not binary, either A or Z type catagories.. theres a lot of spaces in between.

[Annie D]

I am not sure how I feel about remaining male. The more I dress, the more I want to continue dressing and in the back of my mind I can envision myself dressing 24/7. Yes, I enjoy going out in public as Annie and even though I am pretty sure that I am not fooling many people, I have reached the stage that I don't really care. My only concerns are with my wife and kids and I want to spare them any embarrassment about their husband and father. My kids are in high school and we all plan on them going to college and although I will be eligible to retire in a couple of years I can't due to the financial commitment that college will bring. I believe that once they are finished with college and I do retire, I will dress 24/7. Although I will not undergo any feminizing surgical procedures, I will try to present myself as womanly as possible because I like the way that I feel and think about myself when I am Annie.

Who am I fooling? I don't believe that I am fooling anyone except when I am dressed as a male, they don't know that I am really a female inside.

[Nigella]

At some point people here really will have to start acknowledging the reality of the rest of the transgender spectrum.


This appears to me that you are implying that I am very narrow minded in my approach to TGism. Nothing could be further from the truth.

This thread has got nothing to do with the differences from one end of the TG spectrum to the other, more to how much people are "fooling" themselves, hence the title "Who's fooling Who?

Without going through past posts, profiles and all the other information, I am unable to "name names", but a large number of people here do contradict themselves in many ways.

To be a woman is not to be a crossdresser, to be a woman is to be a gender.

[deja true]

...These are not binary, either A or Z type catagories.. theres a lot of spaces in between.

And there are a myriad of these spaces that just don't have any kind of convenient label.

Another aspect is that our places within these little spaces changes all the time...with every day, with every thought, with every new idea that we're exposed to.

All is change, dear ones. Nothing ever remains the same.....

:)

[boardpuppy]

Nigella,
By implacation, you are a DCer who has happily and I beleive loveingly traved this CD path for some time. You know who/what you are, your priorities are set and you know what you want. Therein lies the problem, a lot of us find ourselves just starting down this road and some of us are dumped into as Batty called it the gray and unknown (paraphased) region (edges) between two areas or classificationns. We are here to discover what we are, CDers only or something more. Like you some will stop and be perfectly happy, but for those of us who are something more we will continue searching for answers/understanding/insight into what this journy is all about, if for no other reasons than to be able to answer the SO's questions (IMHO). At times I wish I could say I was only a CDer, at this point I don't know but I am a CDer.

Alice

[beenherelongtime]

i think most (not all) of us would like to be a woman for a short time. if only to be accepted as a lovely girl. it would be nice to wear silky(or any kind) of underwear, put on a nice outfit, and go out to shop, to work, to the movies or anywhere. we cannot acheive this because there is no magic wand or potion that will enable us to do this. so doubts crawl in. we have to (here it comes again) ourselves. as i said before, boy do we get confus(ing).

[Nigella]

Oh, Nigella, chuck it in.



Chuck what in?

Are you asking/telling me to stop making posts?

Sorry but I believe that this post is valid, and do not reject anyone's response to it, as has been said before, in various threads, posts and sections of this site, all comments, observations and opinions are valid on this site.

[Kelli Michelle]

I agree with Batty. There are just sooo many variations, based on brain, social experiences and the like, that there are sure to be an infinite number of people in different places in their lives.

For me, I would classify myself as past just cding, and heading toward some body modification whether that be HRT, breast implants. I do not feel I want SRS at this point, and would be content to live with my "lil friends". In other words, I am not just a guy in a dress, but was originally. As I discovered things about myself, I found I wanted more of the female side of me. It took a while, as we all have been bombarded by society into acting male (why not, we were), and loathing acting feminine.

Trying to figure out what we all are, I suppose, is an interesting exercise for comparison's and statistical's sake. But in the long wrong it doesn't really matter. We all are who we are, and who we are gonna be.

[linnea]

I think that this has been a very interesting post. I thank Nigella for initiating it.
As I have read through the responses and as I reflect on other comments I have seen in this forum, I think that there a lot of categories and that there is a lot of confusion and uncertainty.
There is also a lot of pleasure and satisfaction.
Many CDers, myself included, have fantasized about being a "real woman" or going through SRS to make the full transformation. For some, of course, this becomes a goal that eventually they achieve and enjoy various degrees of satisfaction.
Personally, I have concluded that I do not want to make that transition because at this point in my life it is too expensive and too disruptive to many of the other people who are important to me.
However, I enjoy--very much--the process and activities of being a cross-dresser and "femulating" in the very best way I can. It gives expression to a part of my personality that I really appreciate and that I find fulfilling.
Whom am I fooling? Probably no one. But in a few minutes when I finish dressing, the panties I'm wearing will feel good and the thought of the little bows on the waistband will tickle my imagination throughout the day.

[Debutante]

Your last line nailed it for me - I enjoy emulating (some call it "femulating") a woman. I dress up as fully as I can, and try to honor them in my transformation. I do not want to be a woman full time, because then I would have to do all this the clothes, the makeup, etc. As a guy, I get to do this. It's a treat to dress up. If I were a woman, I don't think I'd get such a charge out of it as it would be normal and expected.Kathi

Kathi -- I agree too... emulating a woman to the best of one's ability, in fine clothes and mannerisms, that honor women and the feminine, is what I strive for... it can be so satisfying... but I don't see SRS or full time CDing in my path.... emulation is wonderful!

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

If I could be magically transformed in to a 100% woman TEMPORARILY, I would absolutely do it. Aren't you curious in the slightest? I wouldn't push that button if it were permanent, but for a day or even a week - let me see what it's like. I'd have fun with it and truly get to experience what the other side is like.

About my crossdressing, I prefer to make myself appear as female as as possible. I'm always a man, but I've got many traits and interests that are considered feminine and love to femme-up when I can. My goal is to become a passable woman. I don't want to look like a man in women's clothes, I want to look as female as possible. That's my personal interest in it. I'm not even close to passable (at least not in person), but maybe in time, I can get better at it.

No desire to get a sex change. I love being a man who can transform into a woman. Wish I could do it more often!

[Deborah Jane]

I guess i,m a guy in a frock!!

I really enjoy being a guy and all that goes with it, but sometimes i just feel the need to dress all the way as a girl.
I enjoy my girly time immensly, but very rarely feel the need to dress for more than several hours at a time before i want to go back to doing my guy things again.

[Jonianne]

.......a large number of people here do contradict themselves in many ways.......

In a forum such as this, people join not only for support but also to help sort them selves out. Someone may feel one way one day and by the next feel totaly different.

And that is OK.

Feelings will change. I'm glad we have this forum to help express ourselves even if we contridict ourselves at times. In time and after much expression things tend to jell and we get a more stable view of who we are. Sometimes it takes a lot of bouncing things off others, who care, before we settle down. Besides, the continum of gender is pretty fluid anyway.

[Cassia-Marie]

In a forum such as this, people join not only for support but also to help sort them selves out. Someone may feel one way one day and by the next feel totaly different.

And that is OK.

Feelings will change. I'm glad we have this forum to help express ourselves even if we contridict ourselves at times. In time and after much expression things tend to jell and we get a more stable view of who we are. Sometimes it takes a lot of bouncing things off others, who care, before we settle down. Besides, the continum of gender is pretty fluid anyway.

:iagree: Yes!, what she said.

[MissConstrued]

Thus far this month, 24 days into it (576 hours) I've spent about 16 hours (I think) dressed up & out. So, that makes me about 2.7% girl on the transgender spectrum. :heehee: If I don't again this month, which is likely, that will drop to 2.1% for January.

Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe I'll track the occasions for 2009 and get a more accurate figure... I suspect it will be around that 2% though.

And I'm perfectly happy with that. Count me as one, Nigella, who's never wanted to be anything other than what I am -- just better at it. That doesn't mean I don't wonder, out of pure enlightened curiosity, what it's like to be something or someone else for a fleeting moment. I think that's called empathy.

[Debutante]

At some point people here really will have to start acknowledging the reality of the rest of the transgender spectrum.
There aren't just pre-op and post-op TS but non-op TS as well. There are 24/7 full-time CDs and DQs and DKs too.

There are androgynes and genderqueers and more besides!

There is no neat simple TS catagory and CD catagory. There are blurry edges and spaces in between where an awful lof of us here fit! ...

Fact is you can be both male and female seperately inside, neither male nor female inside a single merged male/female inside and many varients. There will be people her that are 60%/40% male/female for example.

These are not binary, either A or Z type catagories.. theres a lot of spaces in between.

Yes, i believe this... this is an accurate description of all of us in this very wide spectum... this needs a lot of understanding, tolerance, acceptance of difference... very hard!

[Kate Simmons]

There are no hard and fast rules in this "game". As it said before under my avatar, nothing is immutable. That includes designations and definitions and self identification. As human beings we are fluid and never in stasis for long. Put simply, if we don't forward, we miss the boat.:)

[Tasha McIntyre]

If I could be magically transformed in to a 100% woman TEMPORARILY, I would absolutely do it. Aren't you curious in the slightest? I wouldn't push that button if it were permanent, but for a day or even a week - let me see what it's like. I'd have fun with it and truly get to experience what the other side is like.

About my crossdressing, I prefer to make myself appear as female as as possible. I'm always a man, but I've got many traits and interests that are considered feminine and love to femme-up when I can. My goal is to become a passable woman. I don't want to look like a man in women's clothes, I want to look as female as possible. That's my personal interest in it. I'm not even close to passable (at least not in person), but maybe in time, I can get better at it.

No desire to get a sex change. I love being a man who can transform into a woman. Wish I could do it more often!

YES YES YES......what she said exactly. I can't even edit Gab's post because I relate to it all.

I have a lot to thank this site for. 6 months ago i didn't have a clue - but since joining here and doing a lot of reading I have finally come to terms with myself.

[Persephone]

At some point people here really will have to start acknowledging the reality of [B]the rest of the transgender spectrum.

There aren't just pre-op and post-op TS but non-op TS as well. There are 24/7 full-time CDs and DQs and DKs too.

There are androgynes and genderqueers and more besides!

There is no neat simple TS catagory and CD catagory. There are blurry edges and spaces in between where an awful lof of us here fit!

Well said, Batty. The labels are mostly only good if they serve some diagnostic/treatment/care purpose, otherwise, why use them? Who cares?

The reality is that each of us is unique, with different needs, talents, desires, skills, etc.

All my life I've always thought I was a "CD," but, who knows? Maybe I'm a "CD," maybe I'm a "TG," but, as Popeye once said, ""No matter what ya calls me -- I am what I am an' tha's ALL I yam!"

[TSchapes]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1582859&postcount=1So what is it? Are you a Bloke in a Frock, nothing more nothing less or are you really a closet TS, with no disrespect to those who know they are TS.

where cross-dressers are nothing more than transsexuals in waiting.

I think reason that the Fantasy Island idea of "girl for a day" is so attractive is that we are all trying to find our comfort zone within the TG spectrum. As a CD, I've tried to put myself mentally as to how I would feel if I were a woman permanently. And without being able to "go all the way" and then come back, it is very hard to say. With so many variables, I've come to the conclusion that if I were 25 and single today, I'd probably already be on hormones.

I've spent 4 days as Tracy at a conference. Is this what it's like to be female? Hardly. I spent more time with lovely transgendered folk than with everyday women and men. So even with this experience, I have no idea how I would fare 24/7. I have no idea if I would be happier as Tracy or as my drab self.

Happiness (which is what we are talking about here) is very hard to predict. Pick up the book Stumbling on Happiness by Daniel Gilbert and you will see what I mean.


Love, Tracy

[Sally24]

I frequently prefer the old ANALOG devices over DIGITAL gadgets. The reason......digital is either good or bad, off or on, working or broken. No in-between, no partial anything. Analog has a long fade between working perfectly and not working at all.

I think people like us are analog, it's not a hard and fast clasification as TS or CD and move on folks! I consider myself a "serious crossdresser" meaning I want to appear as a woman or I don't dress at all. I might even be borderline TS but that is missing the point. You can't just draw a line in the sand and say "the CD's are on this side and the TS's are over here".

You also have to realize that fantasy is not reality. We all have dreams (both sexual and otherwise) that are interesting. In many of those cases we would never want that fantasy to happen in real life.

[carhill2mn]

Debutante expressed my opinion very well!

[Jennifer Cox]

...but a large number of people here do contradict themselves in many ways.

Isn't it a womans perogative to change her mind :lol:

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

Most of us profess to be nothing more than men who like to wear women's clothing. We like our masculine side.

Then a thread comes up like the one above. Most of the responses are in the affirmative.

So what is it? Are you a Bloke in a Frock, nothing more nothing less or are you really a closet TS, with no disrespect to those who know they are TS.

IMHO a crossdresser is someone who wants to emulate a woman, in lots of ways but not be a woman.
I see myself as bigender. I have both a male gender identity and a female gender identity. When I am dressed as a female, I am female, and a try hard to present as realistic a female image as I can. When I'm online like I am now, my outward appearance is irrelevant to the gender identity that I am expressing.

If I didn't have family and work commitments, I could easily live most of my life as a female, but I don't think that I could transition because that would leave my male gender identity no avenue for expression.

I guess that puts me in that grey area between a bloke in a frock and a TS.

Alice

[Nicki B]

So what is it? Are you a Bloke in a Frock, nothing more nothing less or are you really a closet TS, with no disrespect to those who know they are TS.

Surely, the majority here are somewhere in between - there is no (and shouldn't be) inevitability in how far we progress?


There is no neat simple TS catagory and CD catagory. There are blurry edges and spaces in between where an awful lof of us here fit!

Exactly. :)


...a large number of people here do contradict themselves in many ways.

Surely many of us come here to learn about others - and by extension, about ourselves? It's my observation that gender identity is often fluid, not just binary?


Thus far this month, 24 days into it (576 hours) I've spent about 16 hours (I think) dressed up & out. So, that makes me about 2.7% girl on the transgender spectrum.

But how often do you think about it? Surely it's much more about a state of mind, not just when you actually CD? :)

[battybattybats]

This appears to me that you are implying that I am very narrow minded in my approach to TGism. Nothing could be further from the truth.


My statement was a general one, not specifically to you.

Most of the discussion of these issues here involves people being either TS or CD. The rest are very very very rarely mentioned.

Yet plenty of people in distress about whether they are TS or not may find that acknowledgement and discussion of being genderqueer/genderfree etc and the like might be very beneficial.

[curse within]

Yet plenty of people in distress about whether they are TS or not may find that acknowledgement and discussion of being genderqueer/genderfree etc and the like might be very beneficial.

Batty,

Normally I would agree with you, but this idea and its a good one trust me I agree ..I say this in a good way so please Batty don't get me wrong.. I feel you are very smart maybe to advanced to have the views you procieve but this subject is touchy..

If we lived in a perfect world this wouldn't be an issue as I am a true believer in freedom and your right to live your life without hate.. I have nothing against Gays I am very happy with their progression to have a soceity not TOLERATE them but ACCEPT them..

We don't live in a perfect world tho and I feel it would be a mistake to gain acceptance under the Gay umbella at this time..In my opinion if such a movement is needed it should stay under a "Transgender Movement" ..I say this because so many of us CDers are straight , married or have friends and familiy with old fashion beliefs..

Now just so everyone knows I am not saying this with hate ,who am I to judge anyways? ..If anything we can learn and take the same approaches the Gays did to gain acceptance ..It has been many years gone by when Doctors first mis diagnosed Crossdressing as having ties to being Gay..To many that diagnose still sticks...

Thanks

C.W.

[battybattybats]

Batty,

Normally I would agree with you, but this idea and its a good one trust me I agree ..I say this in a good way so please Batty don't get me wrong.. I feel you are very smart maybe to advanced to have the views you procieve but this subject is touchy..

Thats ok, thanks for being considerate about how your bringig it up :)


If we lived in a perfect world this wouldn't be an issue as I am a true believer in freedom and your right to live your life without hate.. I have nothing against Gays I am very happy with their progression to have a soceity not TOLERATE them but ACCEPT them..

We don't live in a perfect world tho and I feel it would be a mistake to gain acceptance under the Gay umbella at this time..In my opinion if such a movement is needed it should stay under a "Transgender Movement" ..I say this because so many of us CDers are straight , married or have friends and familiy with old fashion beliefs..

Ah it's the word Queer your responding to in GenderQueer. Ok. Queer has a long history that is connected to gay but includes a lot more than gay. Most folk have no idea about this or the connections between transgender and gay rights through history especially when some of the transgender and gay groups have deliberately tried to ignore that history so its understandable that you dont know about it.

You see the gay and transgender communities were oppressed hand in hand side by side. The nazis but pink triangles on them both and sent both to the death camps. In fact when the nazis took over one of the first things they did was to burn down the clininc where sRS was pioneered!

In America the Gay rights movement started after the Stonewall Uprising. This was when the last bar that was open to gay and transgender people was being raided and shut down just as the previous ones had been.

Now Transgender as a term wasn't invented yet. Many transexuals were called transvestites and drag queensthen and drag came from DRAG or DRessed As Girl with it's opposite DRAB DRessed As Boy.

And the law used to arrest people and close these bars was an anti-crossdressing one! They actually counted how many pieces of 'male' or 'female' clothing people were wearing, too much girl stuff on and a guy went to jail!

Now the short version is that the police started being rough and a punch up and bottle-throwing started as a lesbian and a transsexual (witnesses differ on who started fighting but many say it was the transsexual) fought back. At one point the police were locked inside the bar surrounded by angry people hurling things! The conflict ran for days. It wasn't the first of it's kind either as TG people had rioted earlier at Compton Cafeteria. It was this fighting back against an anti-crossdressing law that is commemorated at gay pride marches! It started the modern gay rights movement!

And ending anti-crossdressing laws were often some of the main targets of that movement!

The term Queer was generally used to cover everyone.

Untill some groups in each of gays, lesbians, transsexuals and crossdressers started excluding each other and blaming each other for their lackof acceptance leaving lot of people in the middle and left out of everything. Even the transsexual Sylvia Rivera believed by many to have sparked the riot!


Now just so everyone knows I am not saying this with hate ,who am I to judge anyways? ..If anything we can learn and take the same approaches the Gays did to gain acceptance ..It has been many years gone by when Doctors first mis diagnosed Crossdressing as having ties to being Gay..To many that diagnose still sticks...

I realise your not being bigoted. However it was the oppression and the laws that put gay and transgender side by side and we still share many issues. Example: If a TS is legally a woman and married to a woman then that is same-sex marriage. If they have children it's same-sex custody!

We'd have got as far as Gay people have if it weren't for the seperatists and if CDs had had the bravery to follow those rioting drag queens and transsexuals the way the gays did. The whole thing started with transgender!

All civil rights fights are one single fight anyway, the one America and all modern democracy was founded on, the fight for all people to be equal.

The more everyone works together on that the closer to that perfect world we'll get.

As for Genderqueer this might help as a primer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

[DaJe]

I can say this. I'm 19, I'm biologically a male, I'm gay, and I want to be girly/feminine/I don't know. I don't dress occasionally, I don't do it for fun, I don't want to be masculine. I want to make myself more girly. I want to wear just regular girls clothing all the time, and makeup, and have longer hair. So some people here are like me, some here are like you and are men who just like to dress sometimes, and then others are a bunch of other different things.


There really is a big assortment here.

[curse within]

Batty,

Thanks for replying to my post, you are correct I never knew of the events you described.. Please like I said don't get me wrong on my preception of how this ties together .. Now your level of thinking as I have said is above most..As you mentioned Transgender wasn't even a word at that time and has grown into the tree trunk that you descibe in a different post.. This tree trunk " Transgender " has many branches crossdressing being a major limb. so in saying that we could also say because crossdressing is related to other types of trees like " Transexuals" and " Homosexuals" NOT ONLY for that reason but because they have the same limb " Crossdressing" accociated to them. But in whole are entirely different trees?

I mean I understand your stance, I agree with your stance...I just feel it needs to be vocalized with the differances in the Trees (labels)..

On this forum alone one persons opinion of the trees can not be agree'd upon to an equal understanding for them all to co exisits under one umbrella how could it be placed into a movement for the public to understand in acceptance ?When there is kaos within the ranks of the movement.. No one wants to be labeled but everyone wants to be understood?

Concerned

C.W.

[MissConstrued]

But how often do you think about it? Surely it's much more about a state of mind, not just when you actually CD? :)


If thinking counted for doing, I'd have already summited Everest, won the Tour de France, and boinked Natasha Henstridge. The last, of course, is paramount. How many times a day do we think about sex? It don't count!

[TeriAnn]

For my part in this issue I do not feel like a guy in a frock I feel more like a guy that wishes he had been born female but can't do anything about it. I am tired of my little buddies as they get in my way and I am tired of being a male. Had I been more in tune with what was going on with me when I was younger I would have had SRS when I was a teenager and lived my life as a woman until my death.
But I was not dealt thoes cards, instead I was born a male with something between my legs I do not like or want but I have to deal. I am married with one child. Would I change that if I could? No, I would not change it now because I love my daughter and would lay my life on the line for her anytime.
When I was very young I thought I was a freak or strange because I wanted to play with the girls instead of the boys, I wanted to play house and wear the girls clothes and all of the things that go with growing up as a girl. As it turns out I had to play a part that was uncomfortable to me but I played it like I should. As the saying goes, if I had of known then what I know now things would have been totally different. All in all I try to dress as a female as much as I can because I feel more comfortable that way and less like a guy. But, hey this is just me and my:2c:

[mannph]

I just love wearing pantyhose. i have no desire to become a girl, i just love wearing pantyhose :-)!

[Kelsy]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1582859&postcount=1

This post has prompted this thread.

Most of us profess to be nothing more than men who like to wear women's clothing. We like our masculine side.

Then a thread comes up like the one above. Most of the responses are in the affirmative.

So what is it? Are you a Bloke in a Frock, nothing more nothing less or are you really a closet TS, with no disrespect to those who know they are TS.

IMHO a crossdresser is someone who wants to emulate a woman, in lots of ways but not be a woman.


Nigella

I believe there is alot of denial in this community or perhaps many are still in the discovery stages. To me, it is just too simplistic to say it is just the clothes because you have to examine the reasons why! Maybe there is a fear that if the reasons are beyond just the clothes then I would have to examine who or what I am - really:)

Kelsy

[sometimes_miss]

Again it comes down to some people thinking everything has to be in black and white. Life rarely works that way. In many ways I am male, in some, I am female. For most of my life, I thought that being a female would 'fix' me. I was wrong. But it would have solved some of the most difficult issues I deal with. However, it would cause new problems that I do not now face. Without actually being a female, an honest to goodness real female, I can't say one way or another whether I would have preferred that; I know a lot of 'real' women who are quite unhappy with their lives, I don't know if mine would have been any better. Hindsight being 20/20 vision, it is easy to say I would have been happier as a girl. But intelligence, physical appearance, and physical abilities of myself and my sister are comparable, and she's been miserable most of her life. I surely DON'T think that I would have been happy as a transexual woman. There is no way I could ever have been even remotely attractive that way, and I already know what it's like not to be physically attractive. For the first two decades of my life, I had to deal with feeling repulsive to everyone because of an ugly birthmark on my face. Once that was fixed, I became pretty much a normal appearing male. But I was still pretty much invisible to the females of the world, they were looking for an 'exceptional' male, and I wasn't it. Sure, like everyone else, I like to dream. But I also know that I have to live in the real world, and have learned to deal with that. So, am I 'a bloke in a frock'? Yes. Do I have more than a few feminine thoughts and feelings? Yes. What does that make me to the outside world? CD? TS? Straight? Gay? None of the above, a 'touch' of each, and a whole lot of other things as well. Stop trying to fit us each into a 'category'. We're all individuals, and we're all different. As much as you want to feel that some of us are 'like you' or 'not like you', it doesn't work that way at all. The common denominator on this forum is the clothes. Sure, you might want to put each of us into the CD group, the TS group (with all it's sub groups, pre op, non op, post op, scared to op, etc.), the drag queen group, the transvestite group, the effeminate gay group, etc. etc. etc., but that defeats the purpose of understanding diversity. Everything varies. JMHO. My heels hurt. I'm going to go put on my gogo boots; they're always comfortable, if a little bit warm for the indoors, but I always feel like a hooker when I'm wearing them.

[Nicki B]

If thinking counted for doing, I'd have already summited Everest, won the Tour de France, and boinked Natasha Henstridge. The last, of course, is paramount. How many times a day do we think about sex? It don't count!

I respectfully suggest it does - and that by making that assertion, you exclude and offend a lot here who may not have the opportunities to get out that you do?


Again it comes down to some people thinking everything has to be in black and white. Life rarely works that way.

:yt:

[Marjory]

Originally Posted by sometimes_miss
Again it comes down to some people thinking everything has to be in black and white. Life rarely works that way
Herein lies part of the answer. There is no black there is no white. Picture, if you will, a white starting point and call it male, then a black point and call it female(in the regard of completely feminine TS)The two points are miles apart. The area in between is a gradient of grey going from black to white. I will only cover males here as I don't profess to know how a female thinks. Most of us are in that grey area, either light grey or dark grey or anywhere in the grey area. This is cut and dry and it does not exist in the real world. The point from black to white is never a straight a line and there are blocks to keep us from going further( family, job, etc.), but also picture points veering off that straight line and going off at different angles(DQ, other TG types). I can only speak for me, at one point I was happy to dress as a female and go out in public. I reached a point where this became too easy. My thoughts then turned to SRS, but my job and family, not to mention costs, prevented it. I get and occasional chance to wear female clothing now and am satisfied, but in retrospect I wish I had SRS. Thinking more I know I should have done it but little "roadblocks" kept me from getting there. It really was out of my hands.

[Veronica27]

Nigella

Your post is very interesting and raises several points. I think that most people with at least a modicum of intellectual curiosity, whether or not they are crossdressers, have at some point in their lives wondered what it would be like to be the opposite sex and questioned whether they would have preferred that. I have heard many women state that they would have preferred to have been born male for the simple reason that they think men have an easier life than women. How else can any of us come to the conclusion that we are content with our own sex and gender or wish to cross to the other side, unless the thought has crossed our mind. To deny this, we are only fooling ourselves.

Secondly, becoming satisfied with one's birth sex and gender does not preclude continued curiosity about the opposite side and their way of life. Society has created such a disparity between the expectations of each sex that most thinking people are bound to wonder about certain things related to the opposite sex from time to time. This can happen regardless of whether or not there is a desire to crossdress.

Finally, the above mentioned curiosity can be, for some people who are otherwise content with their birth sex and gender, a powerful incentive to explore certain of those aspects of the opposite lifestyle for a wide variety of reasons including sexual stimulation, adventure, escapism, relaxation and so on. As has been mentioned in many of the replies above, there are so many variations in the entire community, that labels are rarely adequate to describe any of us, and can be misleading and confusing to the general public. For myself, I can accept crossdressing, for the simple reason that it describes something that I occasionally enjoy doing, but do not prefer to use any other descriptions because they attempt to define me as a person, and like everyone, I am a complex maze of various components.

Many members in this community possess more than a simple curiosity about the opposite sex/gender. Again, they can not be lumped into one category, because the range of their desires to express or actually become the opposite sex or gender are very wide indeed. Some people are on a progression along the path toward a greater degree of "being" their opposite without knowing how far it is heading, while others have reached their destination and are sure of this.

But regardless of whether we are content with our birth sex, or possess a degree of wanting to be something more, we are individuals. As a community we seek understanding and acceptance. However, within the community, I sometimes see a lack of understanding of our fellow members. A change in opinion is viewed as a contradiction rather than a part of the continuing quest to understand. The act of crossdressing is deemed to be the reflection of an inner desire to be a woman, and denial is often derided as being driven by fear or a refusal to accept reality. An affirmative answer to many of the fantasy posts about a magical pill or some other opportunity to spend a day as a woman is considered to always reflect a need to release the inner woman, rather than an opportunity to satisfy some of the natural curiosities than can exist. Who is fooling who is a very appropriate phrase.

Veronica

[battybattybats]

Batty,

Thanks for replying to my post,

No worries :)


you are correct I never knew of the events you described..

Neither had I still I started looking itno the subject on the net. I'd heard mention of Stonewall, but only of gay participants. There is so much of our history none of us know about which is lost with every generation.


Please like I said don't get me wrong on my preception of how this ties together ..

Thats ok. Your not being judgemental only trying to understand. As the saying goes, there are no stupid questions.


Now your level of thinking as I have said is above most..As you mentioned Transgender wasn't even a word at that time and has grown into the tree trunk that you descibe in a different post.. This tree trunk " Transgender " has many branches crossdressing being a major limb. so in saying that we could also say because crossdressing is related to other types of trees like " Transexuals" and " Homosexuals" NOT ONLY for that reason but because they have the same limb " Crossdressing" accociated to them. But in whole are entirely different trees?

The tree anlalogy can help but its far from perfect. There is very little difference between gay and striaght people whether CDs or not. And many studies suggest only about 1% of people are 100% straight or 100% gay or 100% non-sexual with everyone else somewhere in between just as people are combinations of gender identity and gender expression.

And some argue that homophobia is really a form of transphobia, that it is the perceived gender-based-sexuality issues people have with homosexuality and bisexuality that causes homophobia making it a part of transphobia.

So we could suggest that sexuality like gender identity and gender expression are all branches that interconnect on the same tree. After all biologically a straight CDer and a gay one are closer biologically than a cissexual man and a cissexual woman yet between those two are many forms of transsexuals.

An effeminate butch, a camp gay man, a genderqueer pansexual, a straight crossdresser all fit under transgender irrespective of their sexuality. Perhaps we could consider sexuality utterly immaterial to transgender. An unrelated subject/trait that, because we are all humans and all humans have some form of sexuality even if its non-sexuality, that just happens to occur in every fruit on the tree.

And how does one classify a transsexual? Is a MtF TS straight pre-transition when she likes women and then lesbian post-transition as she still likes women? Thats why same-sex marriage is a TG issue, because once legally classed as a woman the marriage of a straight MtF suddenly is a same-sex marriage!


I mean I understand your stance, I agree with your stance...I just feel it needs to be vocalized with the differances in the Trees (labels)..

Perhaps, though why is it important to define a distance between gay and straight?


On this forum alone one persons opinion of the trees can not be agree'd upon to an equal understanding for them all to co exisits under one umbrella how could it be placed into a movement for the public to understand in acceptance ?When there is kaos within the ranks of the movement.. No one wants to be labeled but everyone wants to be understood?

Ah well thats true in every field and every subject. From climate change to history to zombie-movie-buffs. For public understanding I think we need to show diversity, to say that TG people come in all sorts of varieties, all sorts of sexualities.

Most people in the western world knows that white person can mean a man, a woman, a male or female child, and someone from a huge variety of religious beliefs and cultures and languages. They can tell an Irish person from a German one usually.

Cause they get exposed to these differences in day to day life, in schoolling and education and in the media. Now less people in the west are so easilly able to tell the difference between people of different Asian cultures and traditions but still many understand that there are large differences between those of even neighbouring countries like Japan, China and Tibet.

They get it a little less because they are exposed to it less. But for those who are exposed to more they get it more whether in day-to-day life, in education or in media. Now plenty of identity conflicts occur in those labels. Who counts as what, who invented what etc etc. Nationality and culture are frought with issues often to the point of very real violence yet its something most people understands cause almost everyone has one.

So I think once more people are exposed to the variety of TG people and that everyone has their own personal experience of gender the more we will be understood, irrespective of labels or non-conformity to stereotypes.

[marla01]

I'm certainly not a man in a dress! When I am Marla, I am a woman. When I am Mark, I am a man. Not only is this my opinion, it's the opinion of my lover, friends and even acquaintances.

I don't find this to be a difficult concept or a way to live. As far as I'm concerned, gender, i.e. man and woman are not about one's body. Body and genitals do not make a man nor do they make a woman. Instead man and woman are about one's person and how one interacts with the rest of the world. That's what makes a man, that's what makes a woman.

Now I don't know if that makes me 'not a crossdresser' or not. I don't particularly care. But I would suggest that since my body is male, and I have no desire to do plastic surgery on my genitals or even take hormones (things totally irrelevant to being a woman, IMHO), that I am not transsexual either.

Marla

[StephanieT]

I am very happy being a GM. If it were only acceptable for me to wear a skirt, heels and make-up as a guy, I would be happy. It is not, so I choose to wear those items and pretend to be a woman. This also requires me to wear breast forms and a wig. Before I shaved my moustache, I did some gender bending. One day I went to the grocery store dressed as a guy with 4" pink pumps. As I walked in the store, I got a comment from a redneck about my shoes. My wife does not know I dress but we have had several conversations about why women have more choices in clothing, shoes and hairstyles. I even told her once that Victorias Secret is missing the boat by not creating sexy lingere for guys. There could be a hugh market for soft satiny sexy stuff for guys. The one thing we do do together is get pedicures and I get color. My wife does know I like my toes painted and does accept that.

[Veronica27]

Most people in the western world knows that white person can mean a man, a woman, a male or female child, and someone from a huge variety of religious beliefs and cultures and languages. They can tell an Irish person from a German one usually.

Cause they get exposed to these differences in day to day life, in schoolling and education and in the media. Now less people in the west are so easilly able to tell the difference between people of different Asian cultures and traditions but still many understand that there are large differences between those of even neighbouring countries like Japan, China and Tibet.

They get it a little less because they are exposed to it less. But for those who are exposed to more they get it more whether in day-to-day life, in education or in media. Now plenty of identity conflicts occur in those labels. Who counts as what, who invented what etc etc. Nationality and culture are frought with issues often to the point of very real violence yet its something most people understands cause almost everyone has one.

So I think once more people are exposed to the variety of TG people and that everyone has their own personal experience of gender the more we will be understood, irrespective of labels or non-conformity to stereotypes.


This is a good example of categorization, which is used for a great many purposes, including corporate organization charts, compiling data for a book or essay and so on. Your primary category is race and your secondary category can be any of the items you mention, such as sex, age, nationality, religion, with others following as third, fourth and so on depending upon the purpose of the exercise. These secondary categories can be the same for each of the primary categories. These all involve a label and, as you state, it is one which is easily understood from an early age because of exposure. We may not know the exact characteristics of the sub categories that we are not exposed to, but we are aware of their existence and we accept that they exist. For instance, if we are French and we are aware that there are cultural differences between us and the Italians, then we can easily make the assumption that there are probably differences between the Chinese and Japanese cultures.

However, from a transgender perspective, we tend to shun the various labels in favour of an all encompassing umbrella term, while still trying to emphasize that we are not all the same. I am as guilty of this as anyone, partly because there is a lack of clear cut definitions of the various terms, as well as confusion among ourselves as to where we stand among the various sub categories. An umbrella term can be confusing as it essentially says nothing about which category we belong to, while specific terms tend to pigeon hole us into incorrect slots.

Regardless of our goals or agendas or the relative importance we place on each, one of the things we want as members of this community is to have an understanding and acceptance of ourselves as individuals, and to have it recognized that we are not necessarily the same as the next person. The closer the relationship between ourselves and others, such as spouse, family, friend and so on, the more important this becomes. While everyone is aware of the various categories in the race example you cite, most people outside of the community have had such limited exposure to transgender that there is almost a universal lack of understanding. At most they are aware of one or two examples which then leads to many of the stereotypes we are constantly combatting. The categories in the race example apply to everyone. Those in the transgender example apply to a very small minority.

Contrary to your concluding paragraph, I think that exposure to transgender without a clear cut system of classification of the sub groups can lead to more confusion and misunderstanding rather than an understanding. I am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of dispute, but I have observed and read about instances where this is the case. The simple fact that we are such a small minority, means that we are something entirely outside the expected norm. For example, while we recognize that occasionally someone may murder their children, and we can even discover and understand their motive for doing so, we cannot understand the underlying element of their psyche that could lead them to such a dastardly deed. I am not equating crossdressing with anything like that, and most people realize that it is harmless; nonetheless many people (including ourselves) have a similar difficulty understanding the underlying psyche that makes us want to crossdress. Thus I think that blanket terminology can be more confusing than specifics. Those who are close to us, realize in most cases, that there is a wide spectrum, but it is not sufficient for them to know that we exist somewhere on that spectrum; they want and have a right to know the exact location and whether it is moving in either direction. The trend in the community to downplay the labels in favour of the umbrella makes it more difficult to explain our own selves and to be understood. As one who dislikes most of the current labels, I realize that I am contributing to the problem, but am not aware of the solution.

Veronica

[Carly D.]

I have all the clothing to dress as female as I want to.. I don't have all the makeup or the skills to apply the makeup to complete the full look of attempted female head to toe look.. I do wear whatever I deem wanting to wear to complete the want to look or feel like I want to look or feel.. I don't think of myself as a full cross dresser but feel like there really is no category to place me in.. like a guy who likes to wear panties only, is he a cross dresser?? or a guy who wears high heeled shoes, is he a cross dresser?? where does the definition of cross dresser begin??

[curse within]

I have all the clothing to dress as female as I want to.. I don't have all the makeup or the skills to apply the makeup to complete the full look of attempted female head to toe look.. I do wear whatever I deem wanting to wear to complete the want to look or feel like I want to look or feel.. I don't think of myself as a full cross dresser but feel like there really is no category to place me in.. like a guy who likes to wear panties only, is he a cross dresser?? or a guy who wears high heeled shoes, is he a cross dresser?? where does the definition of cross dresser begin??

IMO.... As I am sure many others may agree just as some disagree.. ....A (Crossdresser) should be as it applies..One who wears clothing belonging to a different sex (gender) that gains personal satisfaction in doing so, self gradifacation.. A Crossdresser is not one who emulates or protrays the sex one was not born as..Socially we assign clothing that is deemed male and female and varies in culture.. As some may point out in wearing female clothing you are emulating or inpersonating a female..That is not always true and depends on how often or what extremes one may take ( do you dress daily ? 3 times a week? once a month?).. I would suggest daily or 3 times a week you are emulating a female..


So if you are emulatining or desire to become a female ...Than that would IMO be leaning towards a Trans sexual.....So let the stoning start...

[battybattybats]

While everyone is aware of the various categories in the race example you cite, most people outside of the community have had such limited exposure to transgender that there is almost a universal lack of understanding. At most they are aware of one or two examples which then leads to many of the stereotypes we are constantly combatting. The categories in the race example apply to everyone. Those in the transgender example apply to a very small minority.

Ah, but most people have no idea about the racial and cultural diversity of China for example. From Han to Hmong and so many many more!


Contrary to your concluding paragraph, I think that exposure to transgender without a clear cut system of classification of the sub groups can lead to more confusion and misunderstanding rather than an understanding. I am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of dispute, but I have observed and read about instances where this is the case.

Ithas to be significant exposure though. Exposure to diversity of transgender.


The simple fact that we are such a small minority, means that we are something entirely outside the expected norm.

1 in 50 is not so small a minority though.


For example, while we recognize that occasionally someone may murder their children, and we can even discover and understand their motive for doing so, we cannot understand the underlying element of their psyche that could lead them to such a dastardly deed. I am not equating crossdressing with anything like that, and most people realize that it is harmless; nonetheless many people (including ourselves) have a similar difficulty understanding the underlying psyche that makes us want to crossdress.

But most people dont understand any underlying psychology of anything! If its something they experience that is generally accepted they accept it unquestionsingly. If it is something they dont share but is generally accepted so they are used to it being around they may be curious about it but still accept it.

It is the anti gender-variance culture that is responsible for the problem. In Samoa they didnt understand the underlying psychology to have their third crossdressing sex. In Native North America they used terms like two-spirit to explain it but the point remains true. It was there, people accepted it.


Thus I think that blanket terminology can be more confusing than specifics. Those who are close to us, realize in most cases, that there is a wide spectrum, but it is not sufficient for them to know that we exist somewhere on that spectrum; they want and have a right to know the exact location and whether it is moving in either direction.

I think there is an overstepping there. Firstly if the public sees a variety they will understand variety. As for people and rights to know that is a dodgy conclusion! Certainly its ideal for a partner etc to have some idea where things are going but that is not always possible to know! And something being ideal does not equal a right!

A person of sound adult mind only belongs to themselves. No-one else has a say over them. Not parents or children or spouses or siblings or coworkers or employers or friends etc. From a haircut to piercings to body modification to keeping a pregnancy others dont want them to keep, all these things are a matter of what is called Bodily Autonomy aka Somatic Sovereignty. That is a fundamental human right!


The trend in the community to downplay the labels in favour of the umbrella makes it more difficult to explain our own selves and to be understood. As one who dislikes most of the current labels, I realize that I am contributing to the problem, but am not aware of the solution.

We dont need to downplay the subgroup labels to support the umbrella. You can be a crossdresser-transgender or perhaps a transgender-crossdresser.

The reason the umbrella is utterly vital though is all the 'yes, but' people! The politicians who will support one subgroup but not others, the various haters amongst our on subgroups that want rights for themselves but not everyone else such as the HBS TSs for example that actively fight CD rights and try and get CDing excluded from TS supporting laws!

Or the anti TS folk amongst some CDs, the anti drag people and homophobes amongst the others too!

So to get progress on all the issues, to stymy the 'phobes amongst the subgroups we need the umbrella!

[curse within]

We dont need to downplay the subgroup labels to support the umbrella. You can be a crossdresser-transgender or perhaps a transgender-crossdresser.

The reason the umbrella is utterly vital though is all the 'yes, but' people! The politicians who will support one subgroup but not others, the various haters amongst our on subgroups that want rights for themselves but not everyone else such as the HBS TSs for example that actively fight CD rights and try and get CDing excluded from TS supporting laws!

Or the anti TS folk amongst some CDs, the anti drag people and homophobes amongst the others too!

So to get progress on all the issues, to stymy the 'phobes amongst the subgroups we need the umbrella!

I agree for many reasons not to mention strength in numbers, however when the umbrella opens it has to cover all equally..

[KimberlyS]

Batty, I agree with you very much so. I also personally include the intersexed in with the transgender spectrum. And to carry it even farther the transgender spectrum mixes with the male - female spectrum. Yes there are many very masculine males and very feminine females. But if one really sits down and looks at people there is a spectrum from the very masculine males to the very feminine females. And I am not just talking looks, but also in things we like, personalities, and traits.

IMHO we need to move beyond the fact that we are special. We need to accept we are just normal variations in the human development process. If we keep saying we are special then we need to classify our selves to others can deal with us. I just consider myself normal.

kim

[Veronica27]

... A Crossdresser is not one who emulates or protrays the sex one was not born as..Socially we assign clothing that is deemed male and female and varies in culture.. As some may point out in wearing female clothing you are emulating or inpersonating a female..That is not always true and depends on how often or what extremes one may take

So if you are emulatining or desire to become a female ...Than that would IMO be leaning towards a Trans sexual.....So let the stoning start...

The assigning of clothing also includes makeup, jewelry, hair styles and so on. Even with the inclusion of these items, I agree that you are not necessarily emulating or expressing a desire to be female, as these are all just a part of the external image that society assigns to each sex.

Actors can emulate and impersonate a female, and be extremely passable in doing so, but nobody assumes that they are TS, TG or even a CD because of this, with no other evidence that they in fact are. I think that the only difference between them and many CD's is that the actor's motive is his occupation while the CD's motive is his personal enjoyment. What I am saying is that I don't agree that the frequency and extent of the dressing are the primary indicators of whether the person leans towards TG or TS, but rather it is his state of mind when he is dressing. Does he maintain his male state of mind, or does his dressing involve more than the external facade and involve attempting to think like and actually become a woman in his own mind. I believe it is not so much how others see him, but how he sees himself. It is all highly subjective, and opinions vary greatly on this issue.

Veronica

[Annie D]

If you spend much time reading the threads and the replies on this forum, one can quickly realize that we are all so different in our perceptions about ourselves and how we feel about what we are doing. I believe that each of us spends quite a bit of time thinking about from where we started, how we have evolved to where we are now and tried to predict where we are going. I know that I have and when I try to think about what Annie will be like in 2 or 5 or 10 years from now, I know that it will not be linear but a reaction of the events that occur between now and then.

Will I be different if I am outed? Would would I do if suddenly I found myself single through some castastrophic event to my family? Sometimes I think that each one of us should ask those types of questions to ourselves.....What if? There are no set answers to what we are or what we will become because each of us are different and we react to what happens to us differently.

I appreciate what everyone has contributed and each of you have given me food for thought. Thank you!

[AmandaM]

<<Most of the discussion of these issues here involves people being either TS or CD. The rest are very very very rarely mentioned.>>

Amen.

[Veronica27]

Ah, but most people have no idea about the racial and cultural diversity of China for example. From Han to Hmong and so many many more!


I alluded to this in my opening paragraph with somewhat different wording.



Ithas to be significant exposure though. Exposure to diversity of transgender.


I think we are saying something very similar here, but I am emphasizing the classifications while you are emphasizing significant and diversity.



1 in 50 is not so small a minority though.


Poll results are inconclusive for many reasons. 50 to 1 is a long shot in a horse race. If you include every man who has ever tried on an item of female clothing, the percentage is probably in the 90's. 55% can be a big majority in an election. And so on. Let's not argue what is "small" :thumbsdn:



But most people dont understand any underlying psychology of anything! If its something they experience that is generally accepted they accept it unquestionsingly. If it is something they dont share but is generally accepted so they are used to it being around they may be curious about it but still accept it.

It is the anti gender-variance culture that is responsible for the problem. In Samoa they didnt understand the underlying psychology to have their third crossdressing sex. In Native North America they used terms like two-spirit to explain it but the point remains true. It was there, people accepted it.


No disagreement there.





I think there is an overstepping there. Firstly if the public sees a variety they will understand variety. As for people and rights to know that is a dodgy conclusion! Certainly its ideal for a partner etc to have some idea where things are going but that is not always possible to know! And something being ideal does not equal a right!

A person of sound adult mind only belongs to themselves. No-one else has a say over them. Not parents or children or spouses or siblings or coworkers or employers or friends etc. From a haircut to piercings to body modification to keeping a pregnancy others dont want them to keep, all these things are a matter of what is called Bodily Autonomy aka Somatic Sovereignty. That is a fundamental human right!


I disagree with you on these two paragraphs. Firstly, the public may come to accept variety through exposure, but I don't think it automatically leads to understanding, but in fact can lead to confusion. As for rights to know, the word rights may not be the correct one in the sense of "human rights", but in the absence of a more suitable term, I think it is appropriate. There are a multitude of meanings to the word right, and my dictionary begins with "in accordance with what is good, proper or just". I feel that in many instances such as a marriage, it is much more of a right than an ideal. Also, I don't believe we can make sweeping generalizations about bodily autonomy. What exactily is a sound adult mind? Age, alcohol or drug consumption, stress and many other factors can all impact upon such a determination. The law in many jurisdictions now requires the staff in a bar or restaurant to have a say over whether or not someone has had too much to drink. Also, parents are the primary caregivers to their children. At what age, and for what decisions does this apply? Aging parents, who are otherwise of sound adult mind, often lose their autonomy when their offspring have to step in and make decisions about their welfare. If a person belongs only to themselves, then the concept of human rights becomes somewhat redundant, because responsibility would also end with oneself, and rights for anyone implies a certain responsibility on the part of others, if for no other reason than to leave them alone.


We dont need to downplay the subgroup labels to support the umbrella. You can be a crossdresser-transgender or perhaps a transgender-crossdresser.

The reason the umbrella is utterly vital though is all the 'yes, but' people! The politicians who will support one subgroup but not others, the various haters amongst our on subgroups that want rights for themselves but not everyone else such as the HBS TSs for example that actively fight CD rights and try and get CDing excluded from TS supporting laws!

Or the anti TS folk amongst some CDs, the anti drag people and homophobes amongst the others too!

So to get progress on all the issues, to stymy the 'phobes amongst the subgroups we need the umbrella!

The labels do tend to get downplayed or else are disputed by most who post on a forum such as this. They are not defined in any finite way, and as such are open to interpretation, and people do not want to be misunderstood because of the application of an inappropriate label or a misconception as to its meaning.

In the absence of emotional or personal factors, I can see the value to an umbrella term, especially if the objective is fighting for rights. However, we are such a varied community, that the "rights" we seek can differ widely. Concentrating on the larger picture can make one oblivious to specific needs, just as an overemphasis on one's own position, can lead to unawareness of a wider more general goal. I don't wish to offend, but I see a repeated use of the word "phobia" in your postings, when referencing differences in opinion, or someone's attempt to promote their own specific cause. The differences that exist among us, and our own agendas usually have nothing to do with fear, dread or aversion toward anyone else and their position. I simply see the TG rights movement as being similar in nature to the desires of the individual elements within the community to pursue their own goals through support, but on a much larger scale and through political activism. If we expand upon some of the inclusions of TG that have been mentioned in other posts to also include those who have had thoughts about what life as the other sex would be like and those who have tried various clothing items or activities usually reserved for the opposite sex, the TG movement would no longer be in the minority and people would be persuing hetero/unigender rights. :eek:

All the best

Veronica

[2b.Lauren]

I think Jonianne said it best. There is an aweful lot of vacillation regarding my own experience with dressing. Most of the time I am satisfied being under dressed. Other times I just don't feel like anything at all. When I do get the chance to dress fully and maybe get out and about I am purely in heaven. I have not seriously thought about SRS since I was much younger and when I do lately there is an air of being highly realistic on my own part. I just feel it is more important to embrace the point I am in right now. Just by virtue of our dressing in the first place we are people who like and look for change. We change ourselves anytime we dress, that does not me that we are less likely for whatever reason to change back. When I am fully dressed I think wow I could do this full time. Many feel that both their male lives and female lives are very rewarding to them and that is what prevents them from seeking surgery. For me it is different in that I don't get as much pleasure from my male life. There are many things absent as a male for me, but even then I am not sure that surgery or declaring my status as TS would change that, it would most likely complicate things even more. Like others have said, it depends on my mood, what is going on at the time, how long my chain is that day, and so on, as to what I am thinking regarding my CD or TS lifestyle.

[curse within]

I don't agree that the frequency and extent of the dressing are the primary indicators of whether the person leans towards TG or TS, but rather it is his state of mind when he is dressing. Does he maintain his male state of mind, or does his dressing involve more than the external facade and involve attempting to think like and actually become a woman in his own mind. I believe it is not so much how others see him, but how he sees himself. It is all highly subjective, and opinions vary greatly on this issue.

I can understand your stance on this but a valid point I left out was the state of mind, is this person emulating the oposite sex and how often? Also yes, how one see's themself is key but would also or can be confussed with his/her sexual identity.. There for leaning towards a transsexual. One could find the path through dressing as a female with make-up ,forms and mind set and doing it often..

IMHO .....It is rare a crossdresser who is married with children expressing any traits openly and often by emulating the oposite gender one was born as, to be found anything other than a Trans sexual..

[Nicki B]

A Crossdresser is not one who emulates or protrays the sex one was not born as..

No stones :) - but that can't always be true. Someone who crossdresses may do so for many motives and one can't decide which ones are or aren't valid? Even the actor previously mentioned is 'crossdressing'?

Surely you're talking about states of mind, for which other terms might be better suited?


IMHO .....It is rare a crossdresser who is married with children expressing any traits openly and often by emulating the oposite gender one was born as, to be found anything other than a Trans sexual..

Rare???? Not IME.

[Emily Anderson]

This appears to me that you are implying that I am very narrow minded in my approach to TGism. Nothing could be further from the truth.

This thread has got nothing to do with the differences from one end of the TG spectrum to the other, more to how much people are "fooling" themselves, hence the title "Who's fooling Who?

Without going through past posts, profiles and all the other information, I am unable to "name names", but a large number of people here do contradict themselves in many ways.

To be a woman is not to be a crossdresser, to be a woman is to be a gender.

I think the point of Batty's post is that there are all sorts who makes up this world, and to add to that, as far as who is fooling who is concerned, it also depends on who you are addressing.

That is, some CD's live in a deluded fantasy world, some crossdress for fun, some for sex, some because they feel compelled, some because they feel they were born into the wrong body etc. etc. Some enjoy being male, some want to be female, some enjoy the duality of body and mind etc. etc.

And guess what? Some CD's feel some, none, or all of the above under different circumstances, and at different times in their lives.

The question is simply to broad, and you will never find an answer.

We're humans after all :)

[Raychel]

Bloke in a Frock, nothing more nothing less,,,, Yup that pretty much explains me. :battingeyelashes::battingeyelashes:

[curse within]

Thanks for starting this interesting post, I feel even tho this isn't something people want to talk about but it is something that needs pointed out..

Could it be that some of us are more in the closet than we like to believe to not accept the spectrum (label) we fall under?:confused2:

Can it be possiable that actors crossdress because it is part of the role they accepted in doing thier job and nothing more, some wear policeman uniforms that doesn't make them a police officer and in public if you are not an actor or a police officer it could get you arrested..

What is so hard about accepting the label you fall under? I mean after all just who are you really fooling?:eek:

I still suggest that labeling within a spectrum can lead to a better understanding.. We see it in just about everything we buy to ensure you get what you pay for..We sell ourselves daily by just being ourselves, so with less confussion and a better understanding would it be fair to say we are already labeled by others? Wouldn't you rather have the correct label applied to who you really are and not be mistaken ?

[battybattybats]

I disagree with you on these two paragraphs. Firstly, the public may come to accept variety through exposure, but I don't think it automatically leads to understanding, but in fact can lead to confusion.

Short term sure, but long term? Women as equals was pretty radical and it didnt take long for most people to accept that once it finally got going. Why would people not just grow to accept it?


As for rights to know, the word rights may not be the correct one in the sense of "human rights", but in the absence of a more suitable term, I think it is appropriate. There are a multitude of meanings to the word right, and my dictionary begins with "in accordance with what is good, proper or just".

Sure, its a matter of semantics of terminology.


I feel that in many instances such as a marriage, it is much more of a right than an ideal.

There is a point where ethically there can be an obligation to disclosure. For example if one partner is invlved in a risky activity where the other may suffer because of it. Such as having unprotected sex with others where the spouse may be infected with an STD. But there are enough situations where privacy even from aspouse is justified we cannot consider it in general a right to know everything.


Also, I don't believe we can make sweeping generalizations about bodily autonomy.

I'm yet to hear of a single exception so till I do it's not a generalisation but a fundamental universal human right. But lets see what you bring up...


What exactily is a sound adult mind? Age, alcohol or drug consumption, stress and many other factors can all impact upon such a determination.

Oh indeed! Thats why we have to consider that some people are 'dependant'. Such as the mentally ill, children, the senile, the brain damaged, the drunk or drug-addled, the comatose etc.


The law in many jurisdictions now requires the staff in a bar or restaurant to have a say over whether or not someone has had too much to drink. Also, parents are the primary caregivers to their children.

Absolutely. These are all people in states of impaired or unformed capacity to make fully informed decisions or clear judgement. Making those capable of such dependant on preserving their safety and safeguarding their rights.


At what age, and for what decisions does this apply?

In theory Science can tell us that.


Aging parents, who are otherwise of sound adult mind, often lose their autonomy when their offspring have to step in and make decisions about their welfare.

Indeed. This is the social-contract portion of rights. Where those capable of judgement are obliged to those incapable.


If a person belongs only to themselves, then the concept of human rights becomes somewhat redundant, because responsibility would also end with oneself, and rights for anyone implies a certain responsibility on the part of others, if for no other reason than to leave them alone.

Actually this is a fundamental factor in the notion of rights, how egalitarianism does not mean anarchy. Yes, everyone does have a responsibility to everyone else, from enlightened self interest in order to safeguard their own rights as well as to claim their rights to protection, to the mutual benefits of living in a society.

But something really important needs to be considered when it comes to dependance. That the carer does not own the cared for, that they cannot make any decision they think would be best for the cared for from their own personal perspective but instead need to consider the potential future choices of the cared-for. Even with dementia the possibility of future treatments can never be discounted. So choices should be made not just to maximise the comfort of the cared-for but their capacity to choose later.

A good example of this is an Intersex baby. A parent and/or doctor may think the child would be better off 'normal' and thus conclude that genital surgery would be in the childs best interest. But to do this a decision is made for the child as to whether they should be a boy or girl. Often enough the child grows up to be quite distraught at this decision.. making the decision wrong!

Wheras allowing the child to make their own decision when old ebough to legally give consent to the surgery and to decide if to have any and whether they are a boy a girl or both or neither is maximising the childs free choice once they are able to choose. Therefore that must be the priority.

This has lots of implications on lots of things like circumcision and other ritual body modification. And there arecertainly times where a decision must be made on a childs behalf. But this principle does insist that circumcision of children, unneccessary genital surgery of children, forced undelayed puberty of TG children and lots lots more are wrong.

So someone who has responsibility over a dependant can't decide whatever they want for another, not a barman deciding that a drunk would be better off with a shaved head and empty wallet or a parent deciding that a child should undergo unneccessary surgery. Instead they have an obligation to the rights of the cared-for so long as they are unable to do so for themselves.


In the absence of emotional or personal factors, I can see the value to an umbrella term, especially if the objective is fighting for rights. However, we are such a varied community, that the "rights" we seek can differ widely.

Sure but there are always crossovers. A TS kid and Intersex kid both need protection from unethical treatment like denial of hormone blockers for one and foced genital surgery for the other. While all three need protection from Zuker-style therapy. I've not yet run into any one issue that has no equivalent with at least one other TG group. A TS needs to have their ID match their inner sex/transitioned sex, an IS may need a neutral one especially as a child, a CD needs not to be discriminated against for not having their presentation match the sex marker expectation on their ID.


Concentrating on the larger picture can make one oblivious to specific needs, just as an overemphasis on one's own position, can lead to unawareness of a wider more general goal.

Now that is an important point. Plenty within any community need to be aware of minorities and subgroups within their community. We need to consider our own diversity. Otherwise we risk harming one group in order to reduce the harm of another as happened to Lesbians in the womens Rights movement and plenty more examples.


I don't wish to offend, but I see a repeated use of the word "phobia" in your postings, when referencing differences in opinion, or someone's attempt to promote their own specific cause. The differences that exist among us, and our own agendas usually have nothing to do with fear, dread or aversion toward anyone else and their position.

I advise you to look at the statements of those i was referring to when mentioning that. Many of the most vocal supporters of HBS on the net for example literally espouse hate of crossdressers and other TG people. Even of many transsexuals that do not fit their extreme definition of 'True Transsexuals'! These are people who actively attempt to exclude other TG people from being covered by various legislations! Now if you want people to recatagorise homophobia and transphobia without the term phobia and replace it with something greek or latin for irrational hatred thats one thing. If you think i have not used the term aptly though by all means point that out as I can always be wrong and make mistakes.

But I assure you, when it comes to the comments of many of the HBS movement as well as many of the Radical Feminists in both Lesbian and straight communities, when it comes to the Gays especially the group who excluded Sylvia Rivera from Stonewall commemorations and falsely claimed there were no TS, IS DQ or TG people at Stonewall there have been plenty of statements of clear hatred. You can find plenty of these examples scattered across the net.


I simply see the TG rights movement as being similar in nature to the desires of the individual elements within the community to pursue their own goals through support, but on a much larger scale and through political activism. If we expand upon some of the inclusions of TG that have been mentioned in other posts to also include those who have had thoughts about what life as the other sex would be like and those who have tried various clothing items or activities usually reserved for the opposite sex, the TG movement would no longer be in the minority and people would be persuing hetero/unigender rights. :eek:

From a human rights perspective though arent the more universally applicable a right is the more likely it is to be valid? TheYogyakarta Principles for example cover alomst all TG issues solidly based on nothing more than full rather than partial application of the principles of the 60 year old UN Convention on universal Human Rights.

Just as IS children and TG children and Cis children would all be protected by the same right when it comes to genital surgery, hormone blocker access and circumcision so to is the case for all TG issues surely?

Another example is that adding gender expression to employment non-discrimination would not just protect TSs from being fired or CDs who get outed away from work for being fired but it would also protect everyone else such as the woman fired from her job as a hairdresser for cutting her hair too short and not wearing enough make-up!

Over-specification of rights and legislation can leave great gaps of injustice for many to slip through, whereas when made as broad as possible, when shown to cover as many as possible and apply to many different cases then there is a broad principle that operates well across everyone fairly. So I think hetero/unigender issues are apt rather than a problem. Its only when one groups needs are considered valid and others invalid regardless of all being based on the same principle that you get problems, like the more 'normal' parts of a community throwing the strnager ones 'under the bus' in order to get their own acceptance.

[Sheila]

Short term sure, but long term? Women as equals was pretty radical and it didnt take long for most people to accept that once it finally got going. Why would people not just grow to accept it?


:doh: you are joking !!!!!! ..... we still have not been fully accepted as equals

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

IMHO .....It is rare a crossdresser who is married with children expressing any traits openly and often by emulating the oposite gender one was born as, to be found anything other than a Trans sexual..
I guess you must be living in a different reality to me. A significant number of crossdressers that I know are heterosexual, married with children and not transsexual. I include myself in that.

Over the past few days of reading these forums, I've been trying to work out if I actually belong here. I'm quite perplexed.

Alice

[Veronica27]

Over-specification of rights and legislation can leave great gaps of injustice for many to slip through, whereas when made as broad as possible, when shown to cover as many as possible and apply to many different cases then there is a broad principle that operates well across everyone fairly.

I am a Canadian, and I am old enough to remember when then Prime Minister John Diefenbaker introduced Canada's first Bill of Rights in the early 1960's, as well as the more recent Charter of Rights and Freedoms enacted by P.M. Pierre Trudeau as a part of Canada's new constitution in the early 1980's. Both faced a considerable amount of debate, with much of it relating to the fact that such rights were implied in the system of British Common Law which had its roots in the Magna Carta, along with the British Bill of Rights of 1689, The Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949 and several other acts which form the basis of the British constitution, as well as the Statute of Westminister which applied such law to Canada. The argument against both the Bill and the Charter was along the lines of what you have stated in the above quote with the exception that it was being applied to rights in general rather than a specific area such as TG or Gay. It was argued that the spelling out of any specific rights or the application to any specific group would create the injustices you have mentioned because of possible ommisions. This opposition lost out, of course, in both cases because each P.M. enjoyed a majority in Parliament. It should be noted that the Charter has led to many court decisions being required, and amendments to the Charter to cover various omissions. As well, it has led to each Province enacting its own Bill of Rights, to cover items not necessarily specified in the Charter that fall under Provincial jusisdiction.

I mention this, not so much for argument's sake, but to point out the irony that I see between the transgender all inclusive stance of today, and the opposition of the Canadian traditionalists in the 1960's and 1980's who felt that such rights were already protected under British Common Law. Both seem to be opposed to the over specification of rights, but in one case it was to oppose civil rights legislation, while in the other case it is to expand upon civil rights legislation. It should also be noted that Britain finally passed its own human rights act in 1998 in response in part to the pressures brought about by the European Union to comply with the European community.

All the best

Veronica

[curse within]

I guess you must be living in a different reality to me. A significant number of crossdressers that I know are heterosexual, married with children and not transsexual. I include myself in that.

Over the past few days of reading these forums, I've been trying to work out if I actually belong here. I'm quite perplexed.

Alice

Sorry , I don't know you didn't mean it personally.

Would be fair to say then you are basically living your life as a female? ..Yes Transsexual.....Sorry hate me be mad whatever . Let me guess could it be possiable you were born a lesbian in a male body?

[Nigella]

Sorry , I don't know you didn't mean it personally.

Would be fair to say then you are basically living your life as a female? ..Yes Transsexual.....Sorry hate me be mad whatever . Let me guess could it be possiable you were born a lesbian in a male body?


I was going to question your supposition that because someone lives their lives as a female they are Transsexual, TBH I do live 24/7 but consider myself a cross dresser, however, after researching the meaning of Transsexual, I am ready to conceed that I am Transsexual. You learn something new each day :eek:

As for the supposition that a transsexual could be a lesbian in a male body, that doesn't hold water, or at least I will say in my case, I am and will remain genetically male, therefore I can't be a lesbian because:

a. I aint got a clue where lesbos is

b. I am in a hetrosexual relationship not a homosexual one i.e the relationship is genetically male and female, not female and female.

[Karren H]

Hell I don't know what I am... but then again I don't care what you call it... I call it FUN!!

[battybattybats]

:doh: you are joking !!!!!! ..... we still have not been fully accepted as equals

I said most, you say fully, the words are different. And no I wasnt joking, and I do agree that those who still do not accept are an obstacle to full equality for women. The payscale issue is an example and yet theres been more than a few women elected as heads of state now. The majority has been one over sufficiently for that but the war is far from won certainly.

So yes, most. But not yet fully, a goal every person should strive for.



I mention this, not so much for argument's sake, but to point out the irony that I see between the transgender all inclusive stance of today, and the opposition of the Canadian traditionalists in the 1960's and 1980's who felt that such rights were already protected under British Common Law. Both seem to be opposed to the over specification of rights, but in one case it was to oppose civil rights legislation, while in the other case it is to expand upon civil rights legislation. It should also be noted that Britain finally passed its own human rights act in 1998 in response in part to the pressures brought about by the European Union to comply with the European community.


Ah but theres a difference between specifying universal rights and in specifying specific rights to specific groups. Easy example:

Outlawying discrimination including in law against actual or perceived gender identity and expression. Thats general. It covers every human being. Wheras a law that says that post-operative transsexuals after dislaying proof of surgery hormones and utter sterility and a signed document from a consulting government approved psychiatrist cannot be denied access to an emergency shelter is very very specific.

But the first one covers the second one and the second one definately does not remotely cover the first.

And if the principles of rights are enshrined first and foremost then the specific universal rights follow and then legislative measures allowed for gap-plugging where application of those rights and principles is not sufficiently realised then things are much better covered.

[curse within]

I was going to question your supposition that because someone lives their lives as a female they are Transsexual, TBH I do live 24/7 but consider myself a cross dresser, however, after researching the meaning of Transsexual, I am ready to conceed that I am Transsexual. You learn something new each day :eek:

As for the supposition that a transsexual could be a lesbian in a male body, that doesn't hold water, or at least I will say in my case, I am and will remain genetically male, therefore I can't be a lesbian because:

a. I aint got a clue where lesbos is

b. I am in a hetrosexual relationship not a homosexual one i.e the relationship is genetically male and female, not female and female.

Thanks,

I am really not trying to be an azz,,,,sometimes it's like taking a thousand lashes to be called a Transsexual...Its not but the fact of the meaning is just as applied....I am glad someone can say they are one without question of the definition..Yes you are a Crossdresser, no doubt ...But as the labels extend so do the meanings...Not a bad thing and does lead to a better understanding , that is my only point ..That's all...No you don't have to be Gay to be a Transsexual...But maybe if more question this the more in depth I can get..Trust me there is more as far as sexuality and question of gender..

[jessielee]

dear Nigella,
what a fascinating thread this has been!
Bats is right on as ever, and i so appreciate all the other perspectives.
i realise this was addressed right out of the chutes (began to say "right off the bat") but i like to add my own perspective that perhaps few of us are fooling anyone or are trying to. we are spread out all along a continuum. call me naive, but perhaps most of us are searching, experimenting, questing and trying the best we can
to express and or find ourselves in a muddle we didn't ask to be in.
but as for the oft revistited idea on this forum that perhaps few would really want to be magically transformed to be a woman if it were possible, that the novelty would be not enough if dressing up and doing all the gg routine were truly routine, we wouldn't really opt for it?
no fooling, i would.
here i am, Mr. Rourke, let me have it,
even if it is a "drag." my eyes are wide open
and i want it. no srs for me, too far gone i'm afraid. but Fantasy Island was invoked.
and i would have the transformation.
please.